BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:46 AM

Ha, I love Mudcat. Where else would you get such a funny thread. Keep it going lads! :0)

Ooh...Ladettes....female Lads.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:50 AM

To be strictly correct, all Scottish names are Mac, then if they are followed by a forename there is a capital, if an occupation by lower case, so MacKenzie, MacDonald, Macgowan (smith), Macintyre (the carpenter) or Macnab (the abbot). I suppose if you put a capital in the last, it should be MacnAb, as the "n" is the definite article.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:53 AM

So what, please, Dave, is a 'beth', which appears to have been the occupation of the King of Scotland 1040-57, according to both Holinshed & Will·Shax?

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:57 AM

Lizzie — glad you are enjoying the thread. You were a bit iffy at first, weren't you?, coz you took exception to my word 'operative' in the title. Glad you have got over that anyhow.

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:00 PM

"That's tough because it's the Queen's English which is the correct version, not some excuse of a language invented by raving lesbians and raving lefties." Bonzo, the Lame

For a moment I thought you were on a roll but you fell apart at the end. "a language invented by raGing lesbians and raving lefties' would be much better. Even then, it could be vastly improved.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:07 PM

Clearly, MacBeth indicates the child of a woman named Beth (Elizabeth) and whose father is unknown.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:12 PM

McBetty!!

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:16 PM

Yes, Artbrooks — but I am not asking about MacBeth, but about Macbeth, as in Shax & Holinshed — see Dave MacKenzie's important distinction above, 6 posts back.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:28 PM

Ah, yes...but the Mackenzies I know don't capitalize the K - so what is a kenzie?

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:47 PM

And the M' Scots? A rarer breed.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:49 PM

Had they introduced distinct upper and lower case letters back in the eleventh century?

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Smedley
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:52 PM

My partner is a nurse, and a man. Some people have said to him, in all seriousness, "so you're a MALE nurse?". His standard reply by now is "I thought the beard was a bit of a clue."

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:52 PM

"Lizzie — glad you are enjoying the thread. You were a bit iffy at first, weren't you?, coz you took exception to my word 'operative' in the title. Glad you have got over that anyhow.

Michael"

Ooh noooo...I wasn't iffy at all....that was said with a big smile on my face.

I think this is a GREAT thread, Michael! x

One for Joe....Priestess :0)

(although she has to be a High one to be the real deal)

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: SharonA
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:54 PM

According to this performance by the Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppet Theatre (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI0OpUfi26U), Macbeth is properly called "Mr. The Scottish Play" (at 0:26) and his wife is "Mrs. The Scottish Play" (at 8:59). By the way, Mrs. The Scottish Play is portrayed by a male sock, as evidenced by the statement "and so is he" in the introduction to the play.

:-)

I've read through this entire thread, and I am in agreement with Stilly River Sage. For the most part, where there is a male/female distinction in a job title, it's unnecessary and it is a way in which some males attempt to diminish or discredit the female's credentials and abilities.

However, I think that peerage titles are another matter; for the sake of tradition, I would not want to see them messed with.

A while back, Ebbie asked, "In what way can 'nurse' be said to be gender specific?" I think the answer is obvious: the origin of the word has to do with breast-feeding! According to Merriam-Webster online, the etymology is: Middle English norice, norce, nurse, or nurshen (to suckle or nourish), from Anglo-French nurice, from Late Latin nutricia, from Latin, feminine of nutricius nourishing — more at nutritious. A "wet nuse" suckles another woman's baby; a "dry nurse" cares for another woman's child but does not breasst-feed it. Given the word's origins, I can see why a male might object to being called a "nurse" or a "male nurse", though the latter term seems to be used more and more commonly. Apparently, no one has come up with a satisfactory non-gender-related term yet (not one that I can find using Google, anyway).

Question: If a female actor is an actress, shouldn't a female manager be a managress rather than a "managEress"? (or would people tend to pronounce the "g" like it is in "progress"?) "Man-a-jer-RESS" seems unnecessarily long and awkward to me. As others have said, here in the US she would simply be called a "manager".

By the way, I am a co-chair of a volunteer organization locally -- not a co-chairwoman or a co-chairperson.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM

Co-chair sounds idiotic. In Spain this problem does not arise because everything is either masculine or feminine.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:20 PM

Well, Sharon - if you are a Chair I hope you don't let yourself get sat on.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:53 PM

Chair in Spanish- silla, f.

Females are to be sat upon-

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 02:05 PM

Jean Redpath recorded a song where I thought the matter was handled quite well. "The Kirk Soiree" (about telling a joke)

♫ "They made me the convener of the sewage committee,
For the story I had started at the Kirk soiree"♫

perhaps 'convener' is a common term some places....it is handy.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 02:38 PM

"nurse (n.1)
12c., nurrice "wet nurse, foster-mother to a young child," from O.Fr. norrice (source of proper name Norris), from L.L. *nutricia "nurse, governess, tutoress," from L., fem. of nutricius "that suckles, nourishes," from nutrix (gen. nutricis) "wet nurse," from nutrire "to suckle" (see nourish). Meaning "person who takes care of sick" first recorded in Eng. 1590; the verb is first attested 1535 in sense of "to suckle (an infant)," 1526 in the passive sense, alt. of M.E. nurshen (13c.; see nourish), originally "to bring up or suckle a child," sense of "take care of (a sick person)" is first recorded 1736."

It seems obvious that the origin of nurse does not directly refer to breast feeding, elsewise it would not be necessary to refer to 'wet nursing'. From the above, and for that matter from what Sharon A posted, it appears that 'nursing' has always meant the care of another, whether in providing food or assisting in health.

I think we would agree that Clara Barton did not suckle the soldiers in her care. (Joke, OK?)

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 03:34 PM

No-one ever asked tigresses what they think. I don't think that's bloody fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 03:44 PM

Got a pont there, Steve Shaw. Howver, keep in mind that we don't know what they call each other. :)

Come to think of it, we are fairly selective in naming members of the animal kingdom. We say tigress and lioness.

We don't say foxess, cheetess, catess, elephantess or hippopotomusess.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 03:49 PM

Lots of times there are completely distinct words for male and female of a kind - fox and vixen, duck and drake, king and queen.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 03:49 PM

We do, tho, say vixen; distinguish the male cat as tom; talk of bull- & cow-elephants. Will give you cheetahs & hippos.

It all comes back to the point I constantly make in various contexts, that the last thing to look for in the English language is consistency, either of spelling or usage.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 03:51 PM

I'd like to be known as a Hippopotomusess from now on, please...

That is sooooo cool.   And I'm going to wear a little pink tutu and ballet shoes...and become the only Hippotoomusess Ballerina...

Yikes?

BALLERINA?

Now *where* does that fit in?

(This is such a good thread, Michael!) :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 03:54 PM

Got a pont there, Steve Shaw. Howver, keep in mind that we don't know what they call each other. :)
Ah, but surely you di-grrrrr-ess...

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 04:01 PM

As to Chair and Chairman and Chairwoman and Chairperson (and maybe others), according to a ruling by the American Parliamentary Association (most of whose members are female, by the way) the proper designation for the person who runs a meeting is "Chairman", with the option of "Chairwoman" if the gender of the occupant is of that persuasion and she desires the distinction. Yes, "Chairperson" is possible to refer to the incumbent, I suppose, but it's awkward and unnecessary.

Why?

Because "the Chair" of an organization or meeting is not a person but an office or an organizational function. The person who exercises the function is properly called "the Chairman" or "Chairwoman". "Man" here, as in many other "-man" words, does not assert a gender at all, but merely that a human being does it. That's the meaning of "man" in such words, and has been for eons.

To say, "She is the Chair of the committee/association/company/etc." is simply wrong.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:11 PM

There are MacKenzies who spell it Mackenzie - I have some on my mother's side. It comes in handy when I want to tell my relatives apart. Kenzie is normally anglicized as Kenneth (or Cannice in Kilkenny).

Beth is the Gaelic "beatha" - life, and the Mormaers of Moray used mac (son of) and mal (follower of) almost interchangeably.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:54 PM

Strictly speaking no woman is ever a "Mc/Mac etc" in her own right. The female equivalent is "Ni" (daughter of).

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 06:21 PM

Or in Gaelic it's Nic. The whole lot of us are Clann (children).

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: ClaireBear
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 08:41 PM

Re Chairs:

If I were one, I would be a ChairBear.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 09:01 PM

How about if we start a movement to not only throw out every even vaguely sexist term or anything that even alludes to whoever to fuck holds some position and invent new words?

Anyone or anything delivering the mail is a "Frumbish." Anyone heading up something who was a chair or whatever is now a "Blorfwop."

"Jim works as a Frumbish and is also the Blorfwop of the Sexual Pervert Society at his church."

Sounds great huh?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Smedley
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:14 AM

Sounds like a line from Harry Potter.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 09:11 AM

So I guess the buttresses on buildings will now be called butters.
And what about the seamstresses of old, or the governesses? Is it to be seamsters and governors?
I am too old to learn new tricks. For me, manageress it is. And actress. I mean no disrespect by the terms, quite the opposite. And I'll hold open doors for ladies (as opposed to female persons or feminine entrants and exitors). It's all down to the good manners I was taught. If you don't like it, sue me. Or shoot me.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: GUEST,watcher
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 09:43 AM

Just to throw a spanner in the works (or should that be a spanneress?)does anyone know if the French feminists get bothered about their job titles, since all their nouns are split into le (masculine) and la (feminine.
What do German feminists think, having der,die,das (masculine,feminine,neuter)

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 11:13 AM

In linguistics, gender usually has little relationship to sex. Der, die, das are called 'gender' for some arcane reason.
It is often the case that nouns which seem male or female take a different 'gender'...or even neutral.

There is a famous article by Mark Twain making fun of this. It is endings which are the real issue, not grammatical conventions.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 11:21 AM

What about those male and female ends on coaxial cables and suchlike? Very rude if you ask me.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 11:28 AM

Steve Shaw, i remember the first time I realized the implications of males and females in the plumbing trade. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 11:44 AM

Her: "I'm not an actress, I'm an actor"
Him "Nice chihuahua bitch you've got there"
Her (offended) "She's not a bitch, she's a lady dog!"

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 01:32 PM

Overheard: "Shit! I stepped in some dog doo doo."

No one ever claimed that anyone is consistent, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Amos
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 02:38 PM

First of all, gender distinction is very important in the universes of husbandry, hunting, and show-animal breeding. IT makes a different if an animal is a sow rather than a boar, or a dog is a bitch or not. In the days when more people had a hands-on relationship with raising animals for labor or food, the language reflected their efforts and concerns.

In human occupations, it is often meaningful information as to whether a person is --for example--an actor or an actress, a dom9inator or a dominatrix, and in some contexts, a chairwoman or a chairman, a masseur or a masseuse.

This does not make any of these words inherently belittling. If they are USED to belittle the problem is with the small-minded user, not the nature of the words themselves. It is easy to get entirely too precious and find offense where none has been placed.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:32 PM

Mattress? I suppose we could say "palliasse", but that's a word liable to lead to misunderstandings.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:38 PM

We often talked about pally asses when I was younger. Definitely not the same as mattresses, and only likely to lead to misunderstandings if you have an arhotic accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 08:12 PM

Of course a palliasse is a mattress. One that's stuffed with straw as a rule, but not always.   "Arhotic accent" - you've got me there. I think I might have one of those, whatever it means. (I Googled it: "We're sorry, we checked all 4 million or so documents in our database but we totally couldn't find the article Arhotic.")

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Monique
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 08:45 PM

Yes, Guest Watcher, French feminists do get bothered and insist on job titles being "le" if male and "la" if female, the main example being ministers being called "Madame la Ministre" and not "Madame le Ministre", "ministre" having been a masculine-only word so far because ministers had always been men until recently; the weirdest being "maire" (mayor) because when we say "le maire" everybody knows what we're talking about while "la maire" (female mayor), "la mère" (the mother) and "la mer" (the sea) sound alike but usually the context allows to sort it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:33 AM

So one knows about Lord Mayors then?
I thought Mudcatters knew everything between them.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:25 AM

Well, yes: if the title is 'Lord Mayor', then there is no reason not to have a female one. I remember when the Mayor of Cambridge was a female acquaintance, & she had her daughter as her 'Mayoress' to accompany her on ceremonial occasions.

There was a similar situation in Cambridge not long ago, when one of the colleges whose head was traditionally known as The Master elected a woman to the post: she was still The Master of the College.

Mind you, Girton College, which was originally a women's college, has a Mistress [as distinct from Newnham, the other older women's college, which has always had a Principal; & women's college New Hall {recently renamed Murray-Edwards} has a President]; what will happen if Girton, which is now mixed unlike those other two, elects a male head I am not sure. I wonder if he would have the nerve to go with tradition & be The Mistress!?

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:49 AM

Arhotic hasn't made it into the dictionaries yet then. It's the opposite of rhotic which means the letter "R" is pronounced as written, especially before consonants and at the ends of words. Admittedly Oxford only dates rhotic to the 60's.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:01 AM

BTW Lizzie — we haven't heard from you lately. Too busy practising your hippopotamusess-ballerina ballet steps, I expect. Confess, my dear — you've been watching Fantasia again, haven't you?

❤Michael xxx

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 12:28 PM

By the way, from Wikipedia: A ballerina (Italian for female dancer) is a title used to describe a principal female professional ballet dancer in a large company; the male equivalent to this title is danseur (French) or ballerino (Italian)

I like ballerino.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 05:14 PM

A ballerina also may be called a danseuse
male- danseur
Often used in Canada, with its two official languages.