BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives

Subject: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:45 AM

Some drift started on another thread, Horny Xmas, because the OP used the term 'manageress', which some US posters found amusing — one asking whether we over here would refer to a female pilot as a 'pilotess'. I responded that, be that as it may, I found the present PC insistence of one of our more 'liberal' papers, The Guardian, on calling all performers in plays 'actors' lost a recognised conventional and valuable distinction, & thus impoverished rather than enriched the language — 'actress' being a usefully distinctive term, surely recognised as such in US as much as in UK.

So when should the '-ess' suffix be used? when useful, & when inappropriate for reasons of PC or otherwise? & what are the Transatlantic variables, as e.g. in 'manageress', a term always used over here but not, it would appear, over on your side?

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:26 AM

I've always had a sneaking fondness for the word 'chauffeuse' - a female chauffeur... I dislike the way the language is being made sexless but can also see how many people would dislike being referred to in what is usually the diminutive form. It's a difficult position....

There are some titles that have never really been gender related - I feel that 'pilot' is one of them - after all, it can also be a sort of ship and ships are always female - the same goes for professors and doctor, you don't have doctoresses or professoresses (imagine the difficulty in making name tags for one!).

There is a tendancy to go too far to the PC side in an attempt not to offend anyone, which is laudable, but at the same time, very disheartening for those of us who love the diversity and complexity of the English language.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:31 AM

I understand that many US 'actresses' now prefer to be called 'actors'. Whether that is because of a perception of a lingering misogny or because they feel a distinction is being unnecessarily made between the two terms I don't know- but when one thinks of it, it becomes obvious that both sexes are acting and that therefore they are both actors. If that is what they prefer, I have no problem with it.

We use the "-ess" term and make related distinctions in other ways too. I happen to like the word 'Jewess' but I do consider it superflous. 'Waitress' has become passe in the US - the term now is the 'wait staff'. Individually we still speak of the 'waiter' and the 'waitress'.

In board meetings when the head of the directors is a woman, the term has become "Madam Chair", rather than Chairman. I see no problem there.

Some corrections are a great improvement, I think. In a day when so many women have joined fire departments across the country, 'fireman' is no longer accurate. 'Firefighter' is to the point. Same with people who direct traffic at a street construction project; they are no longer 'flagman' but 'flaggers'.

Much better, imo. It has nothing to do with political correctness, per se, but pertains to accuracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:45 AM

Actress & waitress are the only 2 uses of "ess" I can think of that are common here, & "waitress" is apparently suspect in some places.

Tho I have seen signs in restaurant windows looking for a "waitperson, male or female"

I looked for "restaurant staff" on Jobsearch Australia (Govt website) & was directed to uncountable (over 20) pages of ads for restaurant floor staff, F&B attendants (food & beverage), waitress, wait staff, "front of house" assistants (their quotation marks) - wot no waiters?

A search for "waitress" gave similar no. of pages for waitress, waiter & wait staff.

And - Your search - manageress - did not match any document, while "manager" gave the usual collection of uncounted pages.

Actress only gave this entry - Is there a burning desire to unleash the inner actor/actress/model within you? Well we're looking for YOU! As one of Australia's leading Talent Agencies ... and "actor" led to the same ad. "Actors" gave 5 results - talent ads & someone wants a Santa.

'nuff silliness

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: folk1e
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 04:19 AM

Most of the gender unspecific (did I just invent a word there?) are from professions that were originally limited to one gender. How could a female pilot use a COCK pit or a JOYSTICK? Both these terms were coined with specific sexual intent!
Almost all the terms are male specific, the only one that I can think of as being female specific is Nurse.
One de-sexed job description that I do like is Chair instead of Chirman (or woman) as this implies that the person doing the job is almost an object or tool and therefore impartial!

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 04:37 AM

A cockpit refers to the sport of cockfighting, rather than any sexual activity. Similarly, a joystick is derived from jockeystick, used for steering small boats, carts or similar.

Governess seems to be specific to a profession now relegated to costume dramas. Likewise, seamstress. I believe that in the British acting profession, Vanessa Redgrave and Glenda Jackson led a campaign in the 1970s to stop calling female costumiers "seamstresses", they were now to be called "Wardrobe staff" or just "Wardrobe". The Muppet Show, and Martin Balsam, leaped at the opportunity. Martin asked Cooter, "Could Wardrobe press this suit before I go on stage?" The wardrobe obligingly crushed him.

Peeress (and also Baroness etc) would still be correct in the UK, as there are still laws and usages regarding the succession of titles in the female line.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: folk1e
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 04:52 AM

Not in a plane it doesn't! ;¬D

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 07:02 AM

My daughter used to be a monstress. I never heard of doctresses though there were conductresses. Mrs Plug wasn't a plumbress, and no one ever called herself a bakeress. I suppose a female lobster could be a lobstress. I have met mercifully few wankstresses.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 07:08 AM

The unintended (or not) consequence of giving equality to the sexes in this manner is that we revert mostly to what have been regarded as male versions. Let's just carry on is what I tend to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 07:12 AM

Mistress - found between a master and a mattress.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 07:21 AM

Paul Burke - I've seen Doctress used newspaper articles/stories? from the days when women doctors were rare & here's a definition from The Free Dictionary

Doc´tress
n.        1.        A female doctor.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co.

& here's a British reference - Mary Seacole, doctress in Jamacia in 1830s

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 07:22 AM

When I studied theater in the late 70s, the women wanted to be called "actors", and the comment was made that we never used the word "doctress"....

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 07:47 AM

The problem of course is that there is not really gender in the English language, only sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 07:49 AM

Actually, Paul Burke, a female baker is, properly speaking, a baxter — one of the feminine variables other than -ess [just to complicate things, but, hey, who said life was supposed to be simple!?]: as in spinster, which originally simply meant a female spinner, but acquired present meaning becoz she wd be left at home spinning after her sisters had married and moved away.

Animaterra, one remembers similar controversies [none ever really resolved, probably] regarding authoress, poetess, &c. But I do feel 'actress' a useful distinction [for eg casting directors &c - esp these days when the world is full of female Sams, Charlies, Tommys, Mickeys...]

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: bill\sables
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 08:09 AM

My grandaughters want to be called Princess

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 08:35 AM

I use the identifiers people choose for themselves.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 10:40 AM

Herself, who is one (sort of), says that "a female Jew is a Jew, not a Jewess - after all a female Christian isn't a Christianess".

There are a lot of "-ess" occupational identifiers that have disappeared with the occupations themselves, e.g., the person who did the laundry was the laundress. However, I can't think of any that are still in use in the States except waitress, actress and stewardess, and these are all mostly replaced with gender-neutral terms.

A whole new thread drift (and I guess I was responsible for the OP's starting this one) could be a discussion of the elimination of the word "man" as a suffix. E.g., fireman -> firefighter.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 10:51 AM

So..........If you use the ess suffix you need to apply it across the board like in Cocksuckess or Mother Fuckess..............

Just a thought..............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 11:37 AM

Hmm, what about a real PC gender neutral Cocksuckingperson?

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Marion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 11:41 AM

I think the term actress makes more sense than doctress or manageress or "lady lawyer" because of the nature of acting work. Male and female doctors have the same job, and male and female managers have the same job, but male and female actors don't - the men play male characters, and the women play female characters.

On the taff side, calling someone a "male nurse" is anachronistic but calling someone a "male prostitute" makes sense, because his gender is relevant to one profession and irrelevant to the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 11:49 AM

"Almost all the terms are male specific, the only one that I can think of as being female specific is Nurse." Folk1e


Hmmm. In what way can 'nurse' be said to be gender specific?

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Amos
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:02 PM

A female pilot is traditionally called an aviatrix. Similarly, a female dominator in sado-masochism practices is a dominatrix.

The etymology of "cockpit" is not connected to the slang for male sexual organs in any direct way.

1580s, "a pit for fighting cocks." Used in nautical sense (1706) for midshipmen's compartment below decks; transferred to airplanes (1914) and to cars (1930s).

Joystick may have been born of the genital posture of the device in the early 1900's. According to an essay on the device in the New York Times, "The first citation of the word in the Oxford English Dictionary comes from the diary of the British actor and aviator Robert Loraine. In 1910, he made this entry: "In order that he not blunder inadvertently into the air, the central lever - otherwise the cloche, or joy-stick is tied well forward."

While some researchers have assumed an X-rated origin, Michael Quinion, a sleuth of international English and editor of the Web site worldwidewords.org, suggests that a G-rated definition is more likely: "The exhilaration felt by an early pilot's journey into the air," is how he describes it. As for the device itself, some argue that the credit should go not to Mr. Esnault-Pelterie, but to a Missouri pilot and inventor, James Henry Joyce - thus, "Joyce stick."

But a number of historians, including Edward Tenner, a senior research associate at the National History Museum's Center for the Study of Invention and Innovation, side with Mr. Esnault-Pelterie."

I am more inclined to go with the exhileration-driven explanation myself; the reason being the relative conservatism of public language in the period.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Amos
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:07 PM

As an added note the first use of "joystick" to mean a control lever in an airplane dates to 1910. The first recorded use of the word "stick" to mean a male penis dates to 1916. www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2009/08/sticky-question.html

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:27 PM

I don't do political correctness, and I don't change my language, therefore a female/lady/woman manager will always be a manageress to me.

I loathe the usage of the word 'person'...as in chairperson....using either Chairman or Chairwoman.

What the heck is wrong in being identified as a woman?

I also have no problem if men call me 'Dear, Darlin', a lady, a girl, or 'alright my luvverrrrrr'.....I truly don't understand where all this seriousness in language came from.

I'm old fashioned, and I love being old fashioned, because it's my way and I like the language I grew up with. My Dad called all women 'ladies' and he spoke to them with utmost respect...

All this dillydallying over being feminine drives me nuts.

I'm a woman....and I love being feminine. It goes with my hormones. And I will never give up my right to be feminine, or to be identified as a woman, rather than a person purely because up their own arses feminists feel they have the right to dictacte their 'rights' to me...They don't.

My manageress at work is called Christine. Just so's you know. :0)

Vive la Difference!

(Cheeky, feminine grin, with a flutter of eyelashes, and a wink)

Lizzie...The Temptress.   (LOL)

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:30 PM

AND...I will NEVER be a 'female operative'...

Holy Jumping Feminists, but that's a SCARY phrase!

Man! (Steady on fellas!) :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:32 PM

Amos - think your use of 'male penis' two threads back a trifle tautologous.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:34 PM

... & sorry Lizzie: didn't mean to SCARE ya — just you operate as little or as much as you like, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:43 PM

All right, honey bun.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:49 PM

-er is a gender-neutral suffix, but -or, I believe, is not.

Therefore "manager" is not gender-specific (grammatically) but actress is.

To further complicate the issue (grammatically-- I also don't "do" PC)-- we have the crazy nature of Enmgliush itself. The structure(s).

'Cause I don't think we wanna have acters. Though "dominaters" is fine by me, thus eliminating the need for "dominatrixes" unless the female dominaters like to be called -trixies, so that puts me back to self-chosen descriptors. (A woman with a whip always trumps grammar.) :~) (Unless grammer (grandmother) happens to be a whippy bitch.) :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:54 PM

& sorry Lizzie: didn't mean to SCARE ya — just you operate as little or as much as you like, OK? <<<<

Okie dokie. :0)

I'm going to be a Honey Bun Operator, 'cos I think that's cute.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:55 PM

Herself, who is one (sort of), says that "a female Jew is a Jew, not a Jewess - after all a female Christian isn't a Christianess". >>>

Right Artbrooks — but the whole tenor & rationale of this thread is surely that such designations are often arbitrary rather than logical, so that such comparisons are POINTLESS in the context. A female Jew can be a Jewess or a Jew — both are quite acceptable usages. Ditto poet/poetess, author/authoress, & a whole host of others. But, as someone reasonably sez above, one can logically distinguish between actors & actresses in terms of the roles they will be called on to play.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:07 PM

*sitting on my hands*, lest I explain in excruciating detail the difference between 'expressing an opinion' and 'wearing an opinion like a political button'.

some of the -ess endings are beyond awkward ...context is everything.


(why, yes...I did type this post with my nose)

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:10 PM

I'll just jump to the bottom and state that I find suffixes like "ess" and "ette" to be abhorent.

I worked as a ranger for many years, and every so often someone would try to refer to me as a "rangerette." I always corrected them to nip that in the bud in a hurry. Edward Abbey did that in some of his books to, I think, intentionally dismiss or at least diminish some of the women he didn't think much of (the feeling was evidently mutual in some instances.)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:13 PM

I'm sorry, but how does being called a managerESS, or any other ESS, diminish you, as a woman?

It's always puzzled me..

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM

One could resort to other endings- e. g. Dominatrix.

We lose so much being pc- such as "Hostess with the mostes'"

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:21 PM

The 'ette' ending has been used for small.
In California, a small acerage has been called a 'ranchette'. The term is spreading in real estate advs.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:30 PM

Q - I, & others — as with the -ix suffix & I with the -ster one — have already pointed out that there are various suffixes that serve the same purpose. Don't look for logic as to which is used in which context [see my response to Artbrooks 6 posts back as to how many of these conventions are arbitrary & logic will not work in trying to discuss them]; but I think all would be subject to the same considerations as to their acceptability or otherwise. I agree with your last comment as to how much of flexibility & expressiveness can be lost from the language by too much insistence on PC; & with Lizzie's view that there is nothing intrinsically objectionable to such distinctions in any event. What Stilly River Sage finds so 'abhorrent' in such usages I cannot begin to comprehend or empathise with.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:33 PM

Well mTHEgm, it is true that SRS has intelligence, passion, and a soul, so I see your point........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:36 PM

Buggered if I see yours Spaw — but I beg & pray you not to expound or explain...

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:41 PM

Careful, Spaw- dominatrix on the prowl.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:43 PM

I dunno Q, but the buggered part might be interesting........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:45 PM

"It can't be helped,
It must be done -
So down with your breeches
And out with your bum!"

James Joyce: A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:50 PM

You kinda' like that doncha'?

Cancel the drum and fix MtGM up with a vibrating pocket asshole from that joint Lizzie is concerned about.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:50 PM

One of my favourite examples of the confusion caused by a too strict use of rules comes from the Guardian's obituary of Carlo Ponti.

"The following correction was printed in the Guardian's Corrections and clarifications column, Monday January 15 2007."

A rigid application of the Guardian style guide caused us to say of Carlo Ponti in the obituary below that in his early career he was "already a man with a good eye for pretty actors ..." This was one of those occasions when the word "actresses" might have been used.

Matthew

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:59 PM

You kinda' like that doncha'? >>>

Spaw - just trying to co-operate in the transgender role Q seemed to want to cast me in...

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:07 PM

Oh, well then let's cancel the VPA from Lizzie's Sex Shop.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:07 PM

Try anything once, even at my age — except, as to vibrating arseholes, thanxbutnothanx!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:20 PM

"...but male and female actors don't - the men play male characters, and the women play female characters."

Who says so? Prince Charming, Dick Whittington et al. are always played by female leads. Widow Twankey is always played by male actors.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:58 PM

*getting OFF my hands in order to explain*

-ESS an -ETTE are, to many people, saying 'only' a woman, and many of those endings originated specifically to carry the information that the bearer of the title might not be quite as good as the male equivalent....NOT as an expression of respect.

In some cases, it is useful and proper to note the gender, as in 'waitress' when it helps to identify one among many, but in many other cases, it is irrelevant...as when explaining that "the manager of the store did such-and-such.

Also, some endings simply make the term harder to pronounce and type and spell, and serve only to make 'most' folks wonder why one is bothering to make the gender differentiation. And, yes...in some cases, the neutral form is more awkward, as in "waitstaff" or "waitperson"

*IF* someone is just terribly attached to the more lengthy form....well, *shrug*... they can proceed, as long as they are willing to accept the usual remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: Usage: -ess suffix for female operatives
From: Marion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 03:00 PM

I'm not aware of that tradition, but assuming that you're correct, that doesn't change my point that male and female actors aren't generally interchangeable and can therefore be seen as doing different jobs. A better exception to the rule would be extra roles like "other people on the street" that can be filled by anyone.

Marion