Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 04:14 PM

this documentary shows what a fine singer she was
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RHdNCh0f1U&NR=1

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 06:40 PM

Thanks for the clicky to Sarah Makem's singing - a great reminder of what the tradition really is!
It's a salutary experience for many younger musicians to realise how integral these songs/this music would be to the particular performers in their own circumstances. And I love the real sense of continuity from Sarah to Tommy

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 07:53 PM

And Tommy's boys - Shane, Conor and Rory,have continued their family's musical legacy.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 06:32 AM

Not wishing to take sides but Sarah Makem once said "Our Tommy's a lovely boy, but he can't sing".
Wonder what she meant!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:46 AM

Jim,I think she meant he couldnt sing in a tradtional unaccompanied style, he clearly could sing in tune,and had a good voice, and was a fairly good musician, and a good songwriter.,and the choirmaster missed his voice.
I prefer Sarahs singing,re interpretation of the big songs, but he was a good singer, not in sarahs league, on unaccompanied songs ,I think she was being over harsh.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 01:11 PM

I really don't know what she meant Cap'n.
Whether Tommy was a good or bad singer is a matter of opinion, but it does raise an interesting point in my mind about a traditional singer's sensibilities regarding how traditional songs should and should not be sung.
We spent a fascinating night with one of the Traveller singers we were recording (who specialised in long narrative songs) when we took her to a folk club as a member of the audience. Her estimation of the proceedings was, shall we say - extremely educational.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 03:11 PM

Jim - I'm wondering if you could help me with this.
In all of your recording of Irish travellers and ensuing discussions, what did you learn of how the songs were passed on or "taught"?
I ask because I recollect a conversation with Sheila Stewart where she was telling how she learned some of her songs from an uncle and there was one particular ballad that she had to sing for him (almost like an audition) every year: after hearing it, he would say it wasn't ready yet, and she wouldn't be allowed to sing it for anyone else until she had his approval!
And I'm also well aware that Jeannie Robertson had very clear ideas as to whether a singer "had the right wey o' a song".
All of this would seem to be at odds with what many posting to this thread have been advising (including myself!). Although perhaps advice to love and respect a ballad would cover it?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:24 PM

EKanne;
I'm not sure that there was a set rule on how the songs were learned, though I do believe that learning the 'right' way to sing followed a set pattern.
Most singers we were able to ask talked about a main influence - usually, but not always a family member who they used as a guide.
They appeared to have developed a way of singing which they believed to be 'right' and then got their songs from wherever they could and adapted them to how they sang.
One of the most accomplished of the Irish Traveller singers, Mary Delaney, who was born blind, said she could remember a song well enough to sing it after two or three hearings. We were thrown with Mary at first because she referred to all her traditional songs (we recorded over 100, but she probably had nearer 200) as "my daddie's songs", though when we questioned her, it transpired that she had only learned around a dozen from him - she was talking about the type of song rather than the individual ones.
On the other hand Tom Lenihan, a West Clare small farmer, described how he worked on his songs, in detail, wherever he got them from, planning the breathing and the phrasing and making sense of the narrative. Tom talked about putting the 'blas' - pronounced bloss (Gaelic trans. 'relish', 'taste', 'good accent') on the songs.
Similarly, Norfolk singer Walter Pardon spoke about a song having 'the right strook'.
Wexford Traveller, 'Pop's' Johnny Connors, from well-known piping stock demonstrated in great detail how he ornamented a song and compared it to playing slow airs on the pipes. The word he used was 'Yawn or Yann'.
Kerry Traveller, Mikeen McCarthy, who was a street singers and ballad (songsheet) seller, talked about three different styles of singing, for the street, pub singing and what he called 'fireside singing', that done around the fire at night among family and close friends.
Sorry - am going on far too long about this; the overall answer to your question is that in general the most accomplished singers developed their singing abilities and adapted their songs to fit what they could do. The ones we met, rather than learning directly from their mentors, would pick up their way of singing by listening and emulating, though some of them would seek approval for what they were doing, directly or indirectly. None of the Travellers learned from print as they were either non-literate or nearly so.
Virtually all of them referred to a 'right' way of singing and most identified traditional songs as being different from modern songs (even though some of the latter were far older than the former). Some called them Traditional, or old, or Clare or Traveller songs, or come-all-ye's.
Two of the great Sean Nós (old style) singers from Connemara, (who we never recorded) Joe Heaney and Johnny McDonagh, spoke about going to their uncle, Colm Keane, to learn to sing, but they were the only ones we ever heard of who did so as formally as that.
Bet you're sorry you asked now!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:07 AM

==We spent a fascinating night with one of the Traveller singers we were recording (who specialised in long narrative songs) when we took her to a folk club as a member of the audience. Her estimation of the proceedings was, shall we say - extremely educational.
Jim Carroll ===

I recall a Sunday afternoon in 1956 at C#Hse when Peter Kennedy used to run a monthly singaround. Good occasions - all sorts of people used to come: first place I ever heard Bob & Ron Copper. This partic day Mervyn Plunkett brought along several of the Sussex source singers he had been collecting from. Old [80+] George "Pop" Maynard looked around at the assembled guitarists & said, with mixture of contempt and curiosity in his voice, "What's all them wires for? Going to catch some rabbits?"

I suspect a line he might have used before — there was a sort of 'twinkle' in his voice: but, as they say, up to a point applicably here, se non è vero, è ben trovato.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 06:08 AM

Jim -- thanks for taking the time to post such a detailed answer, and I'll now take the time to digest all the fascinating descriptions.
One little addition you might like -- Jane Turriff, in describing how she interpreted or ornamented a song, would talk about "putting in the curves", and as she said this, she would make expansive gestures with one arm!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 06:15 AM

More great stuff on this thread - but I just wanted to thank Dick for that link to Sara Makem on Youtube. Wonderful.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 06:20 AM

Quote from Jim Carroll:We spent a fascinating night with one of the Traveller singers we were recording (who specialised in long narrative songs) when we took her to a folk club as a member of the audience. Her estimation of the proceedings was, shall we say - extremely educational.

Jim,
Would you elaborate your comment above? I would find it extremely educational myself.
Thanks.
Mary

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:51 AM

all[traditional and revival] singers have different opinions about how a ballad should be sung.
"Virtually all of them referred to a 'right' way of singing and most identified traditional songs as being different from modern songs (even though some of the latter were far older than the former). Some called them Traditional, or old, or Clare or Traveller songs, or come-all-ye's."quote Jim Carroll.
sorry, there is no right or wrong way of singing anything, there is a way that a particular singer might like[whether they are traditional or revival]thats a subjective opinion.
neither are traditional songs necessarily different from modern[traditional style songs],[I mean particularly] a song that can be sung successfully[and which works] without an accompaniment.
finally [imo],great care needs to be used on accompaniments to traditional ballads,that have lines for the audience to join in with,the accompanimant must not inhibit the audience from joining in the song[songs such as Swan swims so bonny,false knight etc]

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:57 AM

Dick said: "sorry, there is no right or wrong way of singing anything, there is a way that a particular singer might like[whether they are traditional or revival]thats a subjective opinion."
I would agree Dick, it is all a matter of personal taste. But it would be good to hear what someone steeped in the tradition thought about a revival singer's interpretation of a song. It could inform the way that one approaches a song in future.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:23 AM

possibly,but it must be remembered that all singers and this includes traditional singers are not always objective about other singers, in my experience,traditional singers can be quite competitive,Harry Cox was dismissive of Sam Larner,on one occasion saying,I dont need a pint of beere before i start singing ,not like some.
one old traditional fiddler I played with, had the utmost contempt for musicians who played the pipes, referring to it as the squealing of a pig being butchered, and dismissed pianists [hello Reg Hall]as music only fit for ding dong bell pussy in the well.
when I lived in Suffolk, I also noticed that some members of the old hat party,started looking very glum when other members got too much accolade, some of these traditional performers have big egos, and their utterances can be influenced, by their competitive outlook.
in a folk club situation,which would be a foreign and unfamiliar environment,its quite feasible that traditional singers would be scathing about revival performers,not necessarily with justification,but because of the reasons I have mentioned.
on the other hand , perhaps the revival singers were not very good and deserved criticism, after all not every traditional singer is good either.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:32 AM

"sorry, there is no right or wrong way of singing anything,"
The 'right' and 'wrong' way to sing a song is dictated, not by the individual singer, but the song itself - does it work as what it is purported to be.
If Peter Pears sings the ballad 'The Lyke Wake Dirge' (as he did), his manner of singing it makes it something else entirely, a piece of operatically styled singing. Composers like Grainger, Vaughan Williams, Butterworth, Bartok, Kodaly... all used folk songs and music in their compositions. In doing so, they turned them into something else. This is not a value judgement, just a simple fact.
Those of us involved in folk song as a specific genre make our judgement on how those songs reach our ears and brain; whether they still retain their original function as folk songs or whether they have been given a new function.
The old argument - if a Beethoven quartet is performed on guitar, drums saxaphone and synthesizer - is it still a piece of classical music or has it become something else?
Hi Mary - haven't missed your question - will get back to it later.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:42 AM

Sorry Cap'n - cross posted
All the examples you have cited can be equally applied to any group of musicians revival or traditional - or anywhere else. We are all subjective in our tastes and choices.
The traditional performers' view is one I would seek out first because it comes from nearer the source of our music - not to say I would automatically agree with it, but I would certainly give it more credence than has been given by the revival as a whole Our traditional singers, by and large, have been treated as sources for our material and nothing else; this is why we know so little about the tradition IMO.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:45 AM

Pears' singing of LykeWake always within context of Britten's Serenade for Tenor, Horn & Strings, along with Tennyson's Horns Of Elfland &c. One of finest vocal/orchestral concert pieces of C20 IMO, but I agree, Jim, only distantly related to the real LykeWakeDirge. None the worse for that, of course, so long as one retains consciousness of which genre one is listening to & adjusts one's expectations accordingly. Remark here, however, that I could never bear Britten's use of ballads like Musgrave as accompaniment for over-elaborate taradiddles on the piano — those make me gag.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 09:11 AM

"so long as one retains consciousness of which genre one is listening to & adjusts one's expectations accordingly."
Thanks Mike -that's what I was trying to say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 09:57 AM

"The traditional performers' view is one I would seek out first because it comes from nearer the source of our music - not to say I would automatically agree with it, but I would certainly give it more credence than has been given by the revival as a whole Our traditional singers, by and large, have been treated as sources for our material and nothing else; this is why we know so little about the tradition IMO"
I agree, but with the proviso,that the more I liked or respected the singers singing,the more credence I would give to their view point.
so while I would listen and consider the viewpoint of say Gordon Hall[were he with us],I would probably put more value on Sarah Makems comments[were she here], because I prefer her singing.
however I would base my judgement on[my perception] of what was good,rather than label,so I would value [say] Bob Blakes comments[revival mistaken for traditional]above Gordon Hall[traditional], because I think he was a better singer.
there are also some revival singers [Sean Cannon MacColl,Lloyd and some others]whose opinions on singing Ballads,I would consider wortrhy of serious consideration.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 10:09 AM

The extent to which Ewan can be considered a source singer, or anyhow a true tradition carrier [lot of his songs learned from parents Will & Betsy Miller] has been considered on these threads before. Just to remark here that Bob Thomson, who knew so much about the oral/broadsehet ballad tradition that he was the first person ever taken on by Cambridge for a PhD course without any earlier degree or academic qualification, said to me more than once that he never believed that Ewan had got the tune for Eppie Morrie [the only one in Bronson] from his father, but had probably made it himself. A fine tune nevertheless, which I have sung often just becoz...

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 10:34 AM

For the views of a traditional singer who also helped shape the revival, come to Shirley Collins's all-day masterclasses on English song in Lewes on 17th. and 18th. April. On the Saturday evening Shirley gives her illustrated talk on southern English gypsy singers, 'I'm A Romany Rai' and on the Sunday evening a new one on Peter Kennedy's song collecting in southern England.

There will be opportunities for floor singers on both evenings.

There is a separate thread on the subject.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:07 PM

"The extent to which Ewan can be considered a source singer...."
At no time in my presence did I ever hear Ewan describe himself as a 'source' or 'traditional' singer - it seems to have been a far more important issue to others than it was to him.
I do know that Betsy had songs - she sang them to me. I also know from William Miller's contemporaries, particularly Eddie Frow, that he had a lot of "queer old songs", many of these in fragmentary form.
It was Ewan's practice to take many of those fragments and build them up into full texts from printed sources. Whether that qualifies his being a 'souce singer' is a matter of opinion; not in my book, and as I said, it didn't appear to matter to him.
My grandfather and great grandfather were both merchant seamen and through the former I grew up with a number of sea shanties - does that make me a 'source singer'; I don't think so.
Eppie Morrie:
Whether Ewan wrote it or not will, like the "who wrote the ballads", question, never be known.
When Peggy was compiling Ewan's songbook she sent us a list of his songs and asked us to identify their sources; we managed to trace them all back to traditional tunes.
Ewan wrote very few, if any new tunes, but based certainly most of them on existing ones.
He used the Eppie Morrie tune for several of his own songs - The Iron Road, The Fitters Song, The Ballad of Stalin....
I don't believe Bob knew where the tune came from any more than we did.
If somebody had told be thirty years ago that a ballad that had been missing from the tradition for several centuries (Maid and the Palmer) would turn up out of the blue in the mouth of a non-literate Irish Traveller I'd have told them they were barmy! Just shows how much we really know, doesn't it?
Cap'n:
"the more I liked or respected the singers singing,the more credence I would give to their view point."
I hope you don't mind me saying so but that's a very odd way of coming to a conclusion - surely the point of view offered must take precedence over your personal likes and dislikes? I can think of several people whose views I respect utterly, but who I find a pain in the arse; and even more people I like very much who I wouldn't trust to go down to the corner shop for a pint of milk.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:12 PM

its not aquestion of liking their personality,but liking their singing,if i like the way they interpret a ballad ,I am more likely to take seriously their points about how to sing ballads

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:18 PM

Re Bob Thomson & Eppie Morrie: he was no way dogmatic about it: just expressg opinion, that he thought it odd that the only tune to have come to Bronson's attention should be that one...

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:40 PM

"its not a question of liking their personality.."
Fair enough Cap'n, then it's all down to personal taste - as long as we listen to what everyone has to say"
"I would probably put more value on Sarah Makems comments"
Even after what she said about Tommy's singing?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM

Sorry Mike, missed your comment.
"Re Bob Thomson & Eppie Morrie: he was no way dogmatic about it:"
I know he wasn't - we had the same discussion - several times.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:59 PM

yes,Jim,
because I understood what she meant, she is looking at singing from the perspective of an unaccompanied traditional singer,who was capable of interpreting long ballads,something Tommy Makem didnt attempt to do,and probably couldnt do,I think she meant he couldnt sing certain kinds of songs[perhaps he didnt want to],that still doesnt mean he couldnt sing, he certainly could,and he could entertain.
Sarah Makem, would have probably thought gus elen couldnt sing, but, he could, but only in a certain style.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:04 PM

For the matter of that, Dick, what would Gus Elen, I wonder, have thought of Mrs Makem's singing? These are deep waters, to be sure...

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 03:15 PM

I was listening to some troubadour songs from Aragon and thought of this thread. Many of them go on and on. Some of these XIII C. songs are preserved with their musical scores. Noted in the music are breaks in the narration, with solo or group instrument melody between verses.
Some polyphonic music of the same period is intermixed with spoken verses.

In any case, a musical break, or a brief spoken piece that furthers the lyric's story, may be one answer.

I appologise if this has been posted before; I have not read every post in this long thread.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

Q
"In any case, a musical break, or a brief spoken piece that furthers the lyric's story, may be one answer."
I don't know anything about Aragon singing, but would be very interested in finding out in order to compare.
For me, the tight, bare narrative of the English language balladry militates against introducing musical breaks in ballads, or any narrative song for that matter. In the end, I really don't believe that a ten minute ballad presents any problem to the listener as long as it is well enough sung. Some of the techniques that could be used have been discussed earlier on. I think there is more room for discussion as length is an (I believe) over-exaggerated problem - usually blamed on the audience's attention-span but far more likely to be down to the singer's lack of confidence in his/her ability to hold the attention of an audience. MacColl admitted as much when he described how, when he first started singing ballads at clubs, he broke the ballad Gil Maurice into two parts, one before the interval, the other after it. He desisted when audience members complained.
Up to twenty years ago here in Ireland we were still able to record storytellers with tales lasting well over an hour long, and the shorter ones were far longer than the avarage ballad.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:50 PM

Right upto the middle of the 18thc many of the longer street ballads were presented in fyttes (separate sections or chapters if you like), best known examples probably Chevy Chase or The Gest of RH. I couldn't say whether this had anything to do with performance but it's possible. More likely it was similar to splitting prose up into chapters or paragraphs for the READERS.

SteveG

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:54 PM

I think audiences used to have a lot more tolerance of long songs than we think they have now. I'm thinking not of ballads but of songs like The Three Ravens -

Line 1
Refrain 1
Line 1 again
Refrain 2
Line 1 yet again,/i>
Line 2, finally
Refrain 3

When I've done it I've always wimped out and done four lines of verse instead of two, with no repeats. Do it with the repeats and I fear modern audiences would be champing at the bit after three or four verses - "His hawks do all about him fly", yes, yes, we heard you the first time, then what? Songs where the verses themselves include lots of repetition without variation fall into a similar category - after a few verses of the Prickle-Eye Bush it's hard not to hanker after a bit of complexity or narrative development...

"Yes, I shall bring you gold,
When I've got it back you see,
For I lent it to my two best friends over there
And I'm sure they'll give it to me."

Hangman, stay your hand
For ten minutes or thereabout
For my brother's financial affairs sound complicated
And he needs to straighten them out...

(Time to revive this thread, maybe.)

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:57 PM

Oops. Let's try that again.

I think audiences used to have a lot more tolerance of long songs than we think they have now. I'm thinking not of ballads but of songs like The Three Ravens -

Line 1
Refrain 1
Line 1 again
Refrain 2
Line 1 yet again
Line 2, finally
Refrain 3

When I've done it I've always wimped out and done four lines of verse instead of two, with no repeats. Do it with the repeats and I fear modern audiences would be champing at the bit after three or four verses - "His hawks do all about him fly", yes, yes, we heard you the first time, then what? Songs where the verses themselves include lots of repetition without variation fall into a similar category - after a few verses of the Prickle-Eye Bush it's hard not to hanker after a bit of complexity or narrative development...

"Yes, I shall bring you gold,
When I've got it back you see,
For I lent it to my two best friends over there
And I'm sure they'll give it to me."

Hangman, stay your hand
For ten minutes or thereabout
For my brother's financial affairs sound complicated
And he needs to straighten them out...

(Time to revive this thread, maybe.)

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:02 PM

Jean Ritchie collected Sarah Makem singing "Derry Gaol" many years ago, but it is a bit different than that posted in Sam Henry's book. (one added verse, several omitted)

Here it is for reference

(I'll leave this up a few days..here is the album. It has been reissued as a CD on Jean's Greenhays label.

[Link corrected- JoeClone]

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:16 PM

I don't think that link is right...

http://home.comcast.net/~somethingextree/music/095_Sarah_Makem_ Derry_Gaol.mp3
let's try that one

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:29 PM

trying to get it right

It works for me when I paste in in from home, but not when I C&P it out of the thread...I'm confused.

http://home.comcast.net/~somethingextree/music/095_%20Sarah_Makem_%20Derry_Gaol.mp3

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:35 PM

ok...that seems to have done it. Some odd space in the link, I guess.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 03:35 AM

In reply to Pip Radish, are we not back to the question of whether the singer values the song, is committed to it? Without making the performance into a melodrama, it should still be possible to convey the tension in a repetitious song like 'Hangman, stay your hand' or 'Lucy Wan' -- if the singer believes in it!
I've been in clubs where such songs have been included in a performer's programme for the seemingly sole purpose of encouraging audience participation, at the expense of the central narrative. But if the principal purpose is to have the audience make a noise, then surely there are plenty other songs which would do the business -- 'The Twelve Days of Christmas', 'One Man Went to Mow' etc.
Try thinking back to when you were wee -- even when a child is more than familiar with a fairy tale like 'The Three Billy Goats Gruff', there is never any urging of the adult reading the story to cut out the unnecessary repetitions and get to the point (although that may also have something to do with prolonging bedtime!).
Bottom line -- trust in the power of a good story.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 05:13 AM

Without making the performance into a melodrama, it should still be possible to convey the tension in a repetitious song like 'Hangman, stay your hand' or 'Lucy Wan' -- if the singer believes in it!

I agree, actually. I think my point was that we've got used to a different kind of song: one that doesn't (usually) tell a complete story, doesn't (usually) include a lot of repetition, but just moves along nicely for a couple of verses and choruses & then stops. In terms of interpretation, a song like that basically sings itself - it tells the singer what to do. Both the long songs and the repetitious songs give the singer much more work to do, & both can be a turn-off for the audience - if they're not done well.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 06:07 AM

Anything, Pip, will be a turn off for the audience — if it is not done well.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 06:52 AM

Choruses/refrains, if used thoughtfully can be a great help both in keeping the attention of the listener and of underlining the tension of the narrative. Repeated parrot fashion, they can be a problem, even to the extent of lulling the audience into an almost hypnotic trance, but slight tonal changes or the slight holding on of key words can underline the tension of a narrative. I've heard this work brilliantly, particularly on such ballads as Sheath and Knife and The Cruel Mother.
However - this raises what I believe to be a major problem - insensitive audiences who don't listen to what the singer is doing but instead, plough ahead with what THEY want to do.
I know from our visting a number of clubs with him, that Walter Pardon occasionally became very disturbed at audiences who tended to drag the pace of chorus songs so that he was forced to slow them down rather than sing them at his own speed. The audiences in question were insensitive enough to completely ignore what he was trying to do, and he was far too polite to mention it. He was forced to drop two of his favourite songs from his public repertoire because of this.   
I have been completely thrown by audiences singing loud harmonies on choruses that demanded sensitivity - this was some years ago now; I get the impression that things have become much worse.
For me, one of the worse displays of bad manners is the singing along with the verse of the song without having been asked to do so - I've even known club organisers to boast that they encourage such arrogant behaviour. For me, the main singer must always be allowed to set the song, not the audience.
I really don't know how to handle either of these problems - wonder how others feel about it.
Anyway - time to put the hobby-horse back in its stable.
I hope this fascinating thread is still going on Monday - we're off to a music/song weekend.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 09:24 AM

yes, the singer should always be allowed to sing how he/she wants.
mind you the same bad manners occur occasionally in music sessions,where musicians do not pay courtesy to the person who started the tune, please listen and play how they want to play it, it is a particular problem with hornpipes,the same applies to strummers if you do not know the chord sequence, shut up, or play quietly,you strummers are alright if you know the chords, if you dont, you are a hindrance.
   however it is wonderful when you do get good chorus singing.
people should think of the voice as an instrument,no one would have the cheek to get up on stage with the main performer[uninvited with an instrument]and play along slowing the main performer down.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 10:14 AM

I continue to enjoy this thread. There is so much good commentary, advice, and things to think about and stimulate me to try out new ways to approach ballads. Thanks so much to everybody who has contributed, and please let's keep it going - especially since we all appear to be able to 'agree to disagree' sometimes in a healthy way. The clips posted of Sara Makem were divine, and I wouldn't have found them if it hadn't been for this thread. (BTW it certainly isn't true that Tommy couldn't sing - maybe her comment was taken out of context...?). Crow Sister suggested a while back that we find and post clips of good examples of ballad singing, or for that matter clips that aren't to our taste, in order to analyse and discuss. I think this is a good idea.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 11:40 AM

That's a good idea, Maryrrf...that's why I posted Sarah Makem...(I did this time post the whole song for comparison, but I would usually do only a clip of one verse or so, and refrain/chorus if it has one.)
   I have a large number of Child ballads available I could give examples of. If anyone has a particular request, I'll see what I can do. (PM me, as I may be in my workshop a lot and miss checking the thread).

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 11:49 AM

yes, thanks bill d,
i realy liked that
here is leadbellys version of the gallus pole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmTNgJxlrCY

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 12:43 PM

cananyone work out the second line,second verse of Sarahs version,thisverse is mising from the sam henry.
the first line is,my love he is as niceas any man.
then it sounds likes
as any ? friend the sun shone on

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 12:53 PM

And from the Max Hunter collection, Mrs. Laura McDonald

(There are 6 versions from Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma and Tennessee there ....as well as 30 or so other Child Ballads)

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 12:57 PM

it sounds like ger friend?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 01:01 PM

http://maxhunter.missouristate.edu/childballads.aspx

(I have over 100 versions of "Maid Freed from the Gallows". Obviously, I shall not overwhelm the thread with them. ☺
There are many other ballads to consider. There are separate threads already for many of them, and specific discussion could be carried on there if anyone wishes to explore one ballad at length)