Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:49 PM

Ihave had a problem with the streets of derry ,I have to avoid going in to come all you fair and tender ladies.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: zozimus
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

Hi Jim,
While I totally agree that voice training and working can no doubt improve performance, have you found any evidence amongst the travellers you collected from that they did any sort of exercises or work to achieve the performances they give? Did they just have a natural talent developed from the oral tradition ?
I have lately taken an interest in the Child collection and a friend loaned me a copy of "My Precarious Life in the Public Domain", a CD of Child Ballads by John Jacob Niles. Now there's a singer who definitely did his exercises .Whilst his high voice singing style comes close to opera, he still puts the story across in dramatic fashion. These recordings were made from 1939 to 1942 and are well worth a listen

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 04:00 PM

Jim Carroll

The best bit of adivice I ever got was when we interviewed MacColl - excuse me if you've heard it - I do tend to quote it a lot.

Indeed you do Jim which leaves me a bit puzzled when so much of what you say contradicts it.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 04:30 AM

"have you found any evidence"
Many of the older singers (not necessarily Travellers) certainly did work on technique - Joe Heaney talks about his awareness of technique on the interview he did with MacColl and Seeger in the 60s. I know singers like Paddy Tunney also worked on technique.
The revival singers are in a somewhat different position than source singers in that that many of them grew up surrounded by singers they could take their techniques from by emulation.
Also, and probably more importantly, source singers tended to confine themselves to a 'type' of song which they handled within a fairly narrow range of technique, while those of us on the outside were taking our repertoire from a much wider range of styles, requiring a larger grasp of skills.
As far as J. J. Niles's singing - personally it has never worked for me as I find it far too mannered and unsuited for narrative singing - but that's me.   
"Indeed you do Jim.............."
Oh dear - I'm being stalked by our resident dumber-downer.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:05 AM

"Indeed you do Jim which leaves me a bit puzzled when so much of what you say contradicts it."

I'm a bit puzzled as to what TheSnail means. How would you suggest singers tackle long ballads? Do you agree (or not) with the MacColl quote Jim posted?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:07 AM

Jim = certainly agree re the horrible J J Niles; who also adept at ruining good songs [e.g. the beautiful But Black is The Color Of My True Love's Hair printed in Sharp's Eng FS From Appalachians #85] by horrible artsy-fartsy over-arrangements which then seem to drive out the originals by some folky perversion of Gresham's Law. Why so many have the appalling taste to prefer such perversions to the originals is something which has always exercised me.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 06:18 AM

There's a lot of good advice in this long thread, but something in one of Jim Carroll's posts struck me as particularly to the point, in a way encapsulating of a lot of the different things said in greater detail by many contributors -

"All singing is, or should be a balance between technique, involvement and interpretation"

I hope Jim will forgive my comments on this.
Technique - training and use of the relevant physical instrument
Involvement - participation of the emotional faculty - 'feel'
Interpretation - deliberate shaping of the performance in line with your understanding

The above are referred to elsewhere, in a different order, as "the disciplines of the hands, the head and the heart". Seems to me that's all we have to work with, and if we are fortunate to get the balance "right" on occasion, then perhaps something more can happen.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 06:19 AM

CS,
I'm really sorry you asked that
Bryan and I have 'issues' regarding the basic standards of singing which I beleive necessary before a singer is asked to perform before a club audience. I have already allowed myself to be driven from one thread rather than indulge in a slanging match which had nothing whatever to do with the question under discussion, thus interfering with the progress of that thread. I have neither the desire nor intention of allowing the same to happen with this thread, which, I believe, is probably one of the most valuable, positive and enjoyable discussions I have taken part in since joining Mudcat.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 07:25 AM

A lot of good sense from Pip Radish, EKanne and Jim Carroll about (a) knowing the ballad well enough to be able to keep it coherent in the event of distraction or personal fluff, and (b) having faith in the song itself - something I touched on in one of my first posts to this thread. If you don't believe in what you're singing, who else is going to? Conversely, if you very obviously do believe in it, then even a sceptical or disintered audience (that was meant to say 'disinterested' although I have had the disinterred kind as well) can be won over. At least some of them, anyway.

Believing in, and enjoying the songs for their own sake, has carried me through one or two of those hellish gig situations that happen occasionally, where it seems like no-one in the room is interested at all. "This is a great song, and I'm going to enjoy it even if you aren't, you bastards."

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 08:05 AM

"I'm really sorry you asked that"

Sorry JC. On reviewing the thread for some fuller context to that comment, I couldn't find any. So I guess TheSnail isn't interested in the topic under discussion here, and is simply trolling..

"this thread, which, I believe, is probably one of the most valuable, positive and enjoyable discussions I have taken part in since joining Mudcat."

Ditto.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 08:38 AM

Over the last 30 years or so, hearing, and enjoying the 'big ballads' albeit almost exclusivly from 'revival' singers, I have noticed that there seems to be two types of deliverly.There is the 'just sing the ballad',let the story speak for itself,then there's th 'verbal acting' style. I would equate Shirly Collins with the former & Ewan McColl with the later. As an 'audience' I hace no quarrel with either, as I am in love with Shirley's voice, and admired Ewan greatly. Incidentally a few months ago I called in to Preston folk club, not my usual venue, and was treated to one of the greatest performances of a 'big ballad' I have ever heard. A woman came in to the room, and produced a spell binding version of Clerk Coville, and then left.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 08:50 AM

As they are relevant to this discussion, I've already mentioned Shirley Collins's song masterclasses at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club on 17th. and 18th. April this year.

Two more relevant all-day workshops at the club are with Chris Coe, who leads an all-day ballad forum on Sunday 10th. October, and with Frankie Armstrong, who leads one on vocal technique on Saturday 13th. November.

Bryan 'TheSnail' Creer is a dedicated, hard-working and enthusiastic member of the club's committee.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 09:42 AM

Matt,
What is there to forgive?
Perhaps I might expand on the three aspects of singing (and I did include all songs). In a way it touches on what Sailor Ron has to say about MacColl's 'verbal acting' style.
MacColl's was very much influenced by his theatre experience, but not in the way it is usually discussed (except in his very early recordings). I never found his singing theatrical in any way, certainly not over the 25 years I was listening to him, but he did use theatre techniques in order to involve himself in his songs. These were the techniques evolved by Stanislavski - 'The Application of the Idea of If' and 'Emotion Memory', as dealt with in his 'An Actor Prepares'.
MacColl argued that the best way to make your songs work work is, if possible, to relate them to your own experiences.
Earlier I raised the question of supernatural songs and how you identify with them if you don't believe in ghosts - it was on these that the technique worked most effectively for me. Rather than being about bogies and ghosties, they became songs about parting and loss.
The technique worked on most subjects of song - occasionally too well.
Can I stress that this was part of the intitial preliminary work; if it came together it left you with enough momentum for when you performed in front of an audience.
It didn't always make things happen, but the songs on which it did work have stayed with me right up to the present day.
It may sound complicated, but it isn't really, and it produced some spectacular results in the Critics Group workshops and, I believe, improved the performances of most of the singers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST,Drumshanty
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 11:08 AM

I just want to say a quick thanks for all the advice since my questions - I will have to take some time to read and inwardly digest but am off to Celtic Connections in a minute... some things are definitely starting to fall into place for me. Thank you all again.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 02:12 PM

Earlier I raised the question of supernatural songs and how you identify with them if you don't believe in ghosts - it was on these that the technique worked most effectively for me. Rather than being about bogies and ghosties, they became songs about parting and loss.
The technique worked on most subjects of song - occasionally too well.

That chimes with my comment above about the Bonny Hind.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 02:18 PM

It does Pip - great minds...!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

I seem to remember, way back, answering that point also when first raised, with a reference to the necessity for empathy — it's, after all, what actors do all the time: otherwise how could any of them play Hamlet or Macbeth, for instance? One has to be some sort of actor when singing, esp a narrative like a ballad — & actors have all sorts of techniques from the melodramatic to the deadpan-throwaway — just as have ballad-singers [cf refs to ShirleyCollins/EMacC above].

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 04:32 AM

"with a reference to the necessity for empathy"
You did raise it at the time Mike; I intended to respond.
Empathy is an obvious approach, as is simple storytelling.
In the short term they are fine, but I found the problem with both was after a while they wore a little thin and repetative, especially if you are singing regularly. IMO, if you want to keep the songs fresh and alive in the long term make them part of yourself.
Sam Larner sang at the Fisherman's Return in Winterton once a week thoughout his adult life. According to him, he sang the same songs each time with very little variation, as did the other singers there. Of all the traditional singers I have heard, Sam is the one who gives the impression of 'living' his songs; of their being a part of his experience.
I hope you don't mind if I describe how I saw this involvement work with another traditional singer, not so much as an emotional connection with the song, but as a singer's emotional state informing the singing.
Mary Delaney was/is (not sure if she is still alive) one of the most amazing individuals we ever met. Her life reads like a Dostoveski novel.
Blind from birth, she brought up 14 children on her own, on the road, until the authorities, in their wisdom, decided that, due to her blindness, she wasn't fit to look after the younger ones and took them into care.
Eventually, after a long struggle, she got them back and in order to get them educated, moved into a flat in Bethnall Green. We were visiting her regularly and noticed that she was becoming more and more depressed, due mainly to lonliness; the young children were at school all day and the rest of the family was up North, on the road.
We recorded a rake of songs from her, including a magnificent, long version of Lord Randall, which she tended to overpitch and run out of breath at the end of lines (she was a chronic asthmatic).
One afternoon we turned up at the miserable flat to find her as depressed as we had ever known her to be. She said she wanted to sing for us, and everything she sang was spot on, good, competent singing. She asked us to record 'Buried in Kilkenny' (Lord Randall).
It was the most emotionally charged, knife-edge singing I have ever heard, she poured all her feelings into it, it shimmered with her emotion.
If ever we were asked to choose one of our recordings as 'the best' (GF), it was that one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:27 AM

Crow Sister

How would you suggest singers tackle long ballads? Do you agree (or not) with the MacColl quote Jim posted?

I don't think I am qualified to advise singers on how to tackle long ballads although much of what has been said here seems very sound. As a musician, I know that the way to a floorspot, leta alone Carnegie Hall, is "Practice. Practice. Practice."

I heartily agree with the MacColl quote. The particular part that resonates with me is -

"Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it,"

In other words, the drive for quality comes from the motivation of the performer. They must WANT to do it and wanting to do it means wanting to do it well.

Jim has said that it is the responsibility of folk club organisers to impose standards and tell people to go away and not come back until they can do it right. He has often made it clear that he considers encouraging people simply because they want to do it as "crass" and that it is "dumbing down" and "promoting crap standards" which seems to be rather at odds with his favourite MacColl quote.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:53 AM

it is important that performers are encouraged to have a go,it is also important that performers are encouraged to improve.
Folk clubs that run workshops are giving performers the opportunity to so this,no one can be forced to go to a workshop,so the onus must be on the performer wanting to go ,which means they want to learn more.
one other point,to some extent,learning to perform ,is something that has to be done on the hoof,I dont think anyone minds a beginner,who can be seen to be improving even if the improvement is slow.Dick Miles
http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 08:02 AM

"Jim has said that it is the responsibility of folk club organisers to impose standards and tell people to go away and not come back until they can do it right."
I have said no such thing - if you would like to point out where... but won't hold my breath.
I have said that singers who can't hold a tune or remember or understand words should not be put before an audience until they have reached the basic standard of being able to do so.
I have also said that clubs should take on the responsibility for providing help for new and inexperienced singsrs (over and over again).
Snail, on the other hand, has said that the only criterion for putting a singer in front of an audience is that their desire to sing - and he consulted his club committee for confirmation that this was his club's policy
"wanting to do it means wanting to do it well."
No it does not - I've met many 'singers' who are quite satisfied with their own mediocrity and have expressed their gratitude on this forum for the opportunity to do perform at folk clubs.
Wanting to sing is not the same as being able to do so - or have I missed something?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 08:36 AM

PS
I should have added that this is the last word I have to say on this subject ON THIS THREAD.
While I am more than happy to continue this apparently insoluable argument elsewhere, I have no intention whatever of ruining an excellent thread on BALLAD SINGING with a Tweedledum-Tweedledee battle that has nothing whatever to do with the subject in hand.
Bryan - you want to continue this - open an old thread or start a new one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 01:21 PM

Jim -- I, for one, would be sorry if you left this thread, which has been of great interest to me since December.
Today Gordeanna McCulloch and I held the second of three ballad workshops in Glasgow, with the intention of supporting less experienced singers who want to think about singing ballads. There were 27 in attendance (some fairly experienced, in fact) and all very enthusiastic.
And the bottom line is that they want this to continue as a monthly session, because there are so few opportunities for singing ballads in a sympathetic community. But I imagine this will be different from singing in a folk club, and much more like a singaround, which seems a more appropriate place for novices than a venue with a paying audience .
As you can see, I'm with you on the folk club/standards issue, and would much prefer it if Snail would start his own thread if he thinks this is an important matter.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:47 PM

Thank you Anne - whoops; I'm not supposed to know who you are!!
I'm delighted that you seem to be having the success you are - if ballads don't work in Scotland, they won't work anywhere.
I have no doubt whatever that, apart from physical defects, which are very rare, anybody can sing as long as they are prepared to put the work in. In my opinion, a reluctance to put that work in shows a contempt for the songs - 'they aren't worth the effort' in other words.
Good luck with your workshops.
I have no intention of leaving this thread; but I will not be part of turning it into a slanging match.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 02:41 PM

My apologies peeps. I shouldn't let Jim get to me the way he does.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 02:45 PM

The ballad workshop in Glasgow yesterday was brilliant. Many thanks to Anne and Gordeanna for the good sense, advice and knowledge that they bring to this subject. It was a delight to see so many folk, so keen and so enthusiastic to learn about and to sing these songs.

Kathy Hobkirk

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 08:23 PM

"My apologies peeps. I shouldn't let Jim get to me the way he does. "
Bryan - with respect, it is you who have rehashed the subject again and again and ....., whereas I have pleaded that we agree to disagree.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 06:36 PM

Jim, you commented many posts ago "We spent a fascinating night with one of the Traveller singers we were recording (who specialised in long narrative songs) when we took her to a folk club as a member of the audience. Her estimation of the proceedings was, shall we say - extremely educational."
I would very much like to hear a little more about the reaction of this singer. Education is what I, for one am looking for in this extremely useful thread.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:38 PM

Mary said she was looking for education on this thread, as am I - but I'm also just nosey! And curious.
The very first ballad I sang was 'The Twa Corbies', to the Breton tune married to it by Glasgow teacher Morris Blythman. I was 13/14 years old and had added several others by the time I left secondary school aged 18 - including 'Son David', 'Sir Patrick Spens', 'The Gypsy Laddie', 'The Silkie o' Sule Skerry', 'The Dowie Dens o' Yarrow' and 'The Baron of Brackley'.
I know why I learned them, but I'd love to know what attracted others to the first ballad they learned.
Any volunteers?
I'm working on the principle that your first ballad should be do-able, so that there is encouragement to continue.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 01:12 PM

It was Jamie Telfer O The Fair Dodheid, only last Autumn, and came about through a convergence of life-threads - friendship with fellow piper Bill Telfer of Langholm who may be Jamie's descendant, going to the ballad competition at Newcastleton last July, knowing the places referred to in the sang, investigating the conflicting theories about the ballad's origins by earlier scholars (more ink has been shed in arguing about it than blood was shed in the events it describes) and reaching my own conclusions, and the challenge not only of learning it but singing it - I play instruments in public but have scant experience of singing.

I now have the joy of not only one, but two (or barely three?) obsessions with deeply unpopular forms of music. Rock on!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST,Diva
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:36 PM

The Twa Brithers because I heard Sheila Stewart's recording on the Muckle Sangs LP

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:20 PM

And going back to the original thread, how satisified were you with your performance? What did you get out of it, and could you evaluate audience response?
(I promise to answer these questions myself later.)

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Richard Hardaker
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 04:15 PM

I think my first ballad from the Child canon was "Dives & Lazarus" - I had first encountered the tune - the archetypal English folk air - as a hymn setting in my school choir days.

Latterly the greatest stimulus to my learning and performing ballads has been the afore-mentioned Newcastleton festival border ballad competition which I regard as an annual kick up the backside to go and learn something new and bring it up to as high a performance standard as I can manage. Beyond that, it is an excellent showcase for balladry, with encouragement and support from such judges as Ray Fisher, Sheila Douglas, Dave MacFadzean, an appreciative and attentive audience and the chance that you might walk away with a cup and an inscribed tankard.

Incidentally, Matt, are you thinking of entering "Jamie Telfer" in this year's competition? If so I will have to come up with something different and save my Jamie Telfer until 2011, when, according to the rules, you will have to present something new (No repetitions for 3 years.) Therein lies the encouragement to learn!

Richard Hardaker

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 04:52 AM

Big choices for first outings!
And I have another question -- would I be right in thinking that a singer with a lot of ballads in the repertoire, will learn a new ballad quicker? I'm thinking in a technical sense (the tune will fall into shape, phrasing will adjust more naturally or unconsciously etc. - because of the wealth of experience behind the attempt).
But would I also be right in thinking that it's not necessarily put into performance at that time? And if so, then why, and when?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 06:48 AM

It is borne in on me that I'm a bit puzzled by this thread in many ways. I know a lot of [what are called] The Big Ballads. The first song I ever learned to accompany on the guitar was the 'Scarlet Town', fairly familiar English, version of 'Barbara Allen'. A ballad is just a narrative song with certain recognisable techniques and characteristics. But what's to be so scared of? I often sang them at gigs. Some are quite long — but so are other songs. I love to sing 'Rosie Anderson' for instance — very long; & where does that fit in? A ballad in form, perhaps, tho not one of the 'recognised canon' of big ones. Ditto 'Maria Marten'. I can't help feeling that more is being made here than need be about a particular body of what are, after all, just songs like others, which some like to sing, others not. Not even very long, all of them. Who would balk at singing 'Lizzie Lindsey', or 'The Bonnie Earl of Murray', or 'Bonnie George Campbell'? Or 'The Brown Girl ['dance·on·grave', I mean, not American misnaming of 'Ld Thos'] ?...

Yet here we have all this soul-searching on this long-long thread; and all these specialist events and workshops —

Maybe we should all just lighten up a bit?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:26 AM

I never was scared to sing ballads either. I just plunged right in! But for years, since I was fourteen (starting with House Carpenter that I learned from a Joan Baez record) I had been singng ballads to myself. I spent many an evening just sitting in my room 'visiting' with 'imaginary friends' from the ballads (many of whom lived very tragic lives) - visualizing every nuance as I sang, while the dog listened and dozed in the corner. When I did start singing professionally I'd always incorporate a few ballads. It often (not always) worked - especially if I explained it to the audience first. That seems to help them follow the story.

And yes, I think if you're accustomed to ballads it's easier to learn new ones. You aren't as daunted. You have the storyline and the melody to "hang" the lyrics on, so it isn't as hard to memorize as a random poem would be.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 12:32 PM

"Incidentally, Matt, are you thinking of entering "Jamie Telfer" in this year's competition?"
Richard Hardaker

I don't think it's an issue Richard. Last year we heard two Parcy Reeds. Jamie Telfer's hardly ever sung, it's a lot more fun than Parcy Reed, and it would be good to hear two different interpretations. And it's January now, the comp is in July, let's see if we're still around and still want to sing it!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 01:41 PM

"It is borne in on me that I'm a bit puzzled by this thread in many ways... I can't help feeling that more is being made here than need be about a particular body of what are, after all, just songs like others."

Oh dear, Michael, I fear you're succumbing to a classic Mudcat syndrome: posting to a thread to inform all the previous posters that they are wasting their time over a thread that you consider inconsequential. People discuss these things because they find them interesting, that's all.

The facts that some ballads are long, others short, that some are heavy laden and others frivolous, that some are gripping and others dull, have all been acknowledged in many comments written above. The thread title does, however, refer specifically to the big long ones, so hardly surprising that we should address ourselves mainly toward those.

Although many of us would quarrel with some of Child's choices, the fact remains that his canon represents works that are older than the plethora of 18th - 19th century broadside songs, that deal with different kinds of topics, and that tell their tales in a different kind of lyric. The best of them (and that's quite a large category) are without peer as emotionally-involving pieces. There's nothing wrong with 'Maria Marten', but emotionally it's not on the same level as 'Tiftie's Annie' or 'Lucy Wan'. And people respond to them; I bet if you asked Martin Carthy what his most requested numbers have been over the years, he would tell you 'Famous Flower', 'Willie's Lady' and 'Prince Heathen'.

If you think that striding out to sing 'Tam Lin' or 'False Foudrage' requires no more thought, preparation or plain guts than 'The Black Velvet Band', then I wonder what you've been listening to for all your years of involvement with folk song. It's not a question of being 'scared', but it is a question of taking serious material seriously. Judging by the success of the ballad workshops EKanne was describing, it seems that your derision for all this 'soul-searching' isn't universally shared.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 02:15 PM

Thanks, Brian, for your usual clear exposition of some of the issues around singing 'big' ballads.
But from a personal perspective, I don't always equate length with 'big'; to me, big also means having huge emotional weight - 'Fine Flowers in the Valley' is a 7 verse telling of 'The Cruel Mother', and 'Son David' is 'Edward' in 8 verses. And although 'Bonnie George Campbell' is only 3 verses long (or 4 if you repeat verse 1, which I think is justifiable in this particular story), it can require a 'big' effort to bring home all of the background without over-dramatising.
Hope this doesn't confuse the issue!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 02:24 PM

Not 'derision', Brian: I should never dream of deriding any serious discussion of an important issue. And I do take your points indeed. And I have contributed to quite an extent to the thread above myself, so would not accuse anyone of time-wasting, which was not my point at all. It's just that I think there isn't quite as much to be scared of in singing 'Tam Lin' [have never done 'Fause Foudrage'] as some seem to find. It's a fine song, with good strong narrative: very enjoyable to sing. I would, in fact, much rather sing it {or "Little Musgrave" or 'Young Johnston and the Young Colonel'} than 'Black Velvet Band' any day of the week. If one has the feel for that sort of song I can't see what there is to be so terrified about; that's all. And if you are not someone who feels comfortable with them, nobody is twisting arms. And anyone who tries to sing one but loses the audience is just as likely to do so with 'Black Velvet Band' also, for that matter.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 04:48 PM

MtheGM talked of feeling comfortable with a ballad - which is exactly what Gordeanna McCulloch and I were trying to do today in the third of our ballad workshops. We chose a ballad which we haven't heard sung up here in Glasgow and which neither of us knew - 'Jamie Douglas' (Child no.204).
There is a great historical backstory and a connection to the earlier 'Waly Waly' (source of many of the most-recognised floating verses -"I wish, I wish etc."). But all 20 participants plus the two of us struggled with the chosen tune, wanting to push it in another direction for the final line. And there was much agonising over quite a few of the verses, which lacked sufficient syllables to sit 'comfortably' on the tune.
The final consensus was that we should give each other permission to make sensitive adjustments according to our own taste and with acknowledgement of ballad style. And all the participants were well aware that we would probably end up with 22 subtly different versions.
If this encourages singers to think about ballads before tackling them in performance, then it may be worth pursuing - and there seems to be a desire from those in attendance to continue. So, watch this space!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 02:43 AM

That is a very interesting way of getting a group of people to focus on a single ballad and think about it.

The tune written down for any ballad has to be an average of what the original singer sang throughout, because everyone varies it according to the demands of an individual verse. If they didn't it would come out sounding like a hymn, with the phrases straightjacketed into the tune. Sometimes the words noted down are very strange, with six-line verses in a four-line ballad or a sudden change of metre, and the only way of dealing with that is to repeat part of the melody or more likely rationalise the words. Perhaps in those cases the source was reciting rather than singing.

It's interesting that everyone in EKanne's group needed to alter the final line of Jamie Douglas's tune; was that because it was difficult to sing, or because it felt like a bit of an anti-climax?

For our all-day ballad forums in Lewes, we ask all participants to nominate their chosen ballad in advance because we haven't so far planned to study a a single one. This means that we avoid duplication and can weed out anything that couldn't be considered a ballad even if you stretch the definition until your knuckles stand out white under the strain. Every participant sings their ballad and starts a discussion about it. The tutor also chooses a couple to sing, and may bring source recordings or literature to shed light on them. (One of our tutors is taking part in this thread.)

Discussion of everyone's choices covers history, folklore, geography, performance style, emotional content, medicine, religion, and anything else thrown up by the ballads themselves.

This is just one way of many possible ones of encouraging people to think more deeply about what they are singing.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:55 AM

Valmai, our workshops have not primarily been about 'teaching' ballads (although some participants with limited access to good libraries for either books or cd's are grateful for any additional repertoire). Rather, we have been trying to encourage the PROCESS of assimilating a ballad, making singers aware of all the choices open to them - both musically and textually - and hoping to give them the confidence to listen critically and make those choices.
As far as the 'Jamie Douglas' tune was concerned, there was an interesting rising leap in line 2 which took the tune into its upper range for line 3 - but instead of some run down to the starting notes, it bumped itself straight down onto a stodgy repetition of the first two notes for 6 syllables. Everyone felt it as a real anticlimax.
For myself, I was vaguely aware of echoes of another tune in my head (possibly a friend's version of 'Tam Lin') but couldn't nail it because of the group discussion. So that's today's homework sorted out!
Your workshops sound fascinating - pity they're so far away!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 04:50 AM

EKanne, perhaps we should find a way of getting you down to Lewes to lead one. 'Tutor' was a misnomer on my part, used because we run a lot of instrument workshops as well. We call the ballad days 'forums'. We don't aim to teach, either - we simply encourage people to explore ballads and think about how they sing them.
If you might be interested, please email me on valmaigoodyear[at]aol[dot]com.

Is the Jamie Douglas tune the one printed with Version O in Child, from Motherwell's Minstrelsy?

Valmai
Lewes Saturday Folk Club

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:13 AM

To answer your question about the tune, it is indeed the one printed with Child's O version, though we used the text of the A version from Kinloch. And I've already been twiddling with the tune, which is slowly settling into some new hybrid, with unconscious importations from who knows where!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 04:46 AM

EKanne, thanks for making me look at Jamie Douglas again. I've only heard this sung by one person and she used a different tune (but not Waly, Waly).

Replying to your question of 30th. January, I'd say that the more ballads you know the easier it is to learn a new one and also to put in a patch if memory fails, because the vocabulary and phrasing style are there in the subconscious to help. Ballads take a while to bed in, though. I don't pretend to be a good singer, but I hope I'm a conscientious one; although I learn a ballad in a day or so once I've arrived at a selection of verses which tell the story satisfactorily for me, I won't attempt to sing it out until I've lived with it at home for a few months.

The first ballad I sang out was a version of Banks of Green Willow which I'd larded with verses from Fair Annie in order to make emotional sense of it for me. I think it worked, because I could feel the audience concentrating, but there's always a lot of room for improvement and I haven't got much of a voice. I'd learned several others from recordings but never sung them out because plenty of other people locally were already doing them (and better than I could).

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 08:49 PM

I'd love to know what attracted others to the first ballad they learned.
Any volunteers?

The first one I learned (and I never learned many more, I'm more of an instrumentalist) was "The Baron of Brackley", from Ewan MacColl's "Songs and Ballads of Scotland". It's got a strong and distinctive tune.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 04:55 AM

I have come to Mudcat rather late, and would like to chuck in an oar or two.
On the subject of "fitting the text to the tune" (or vice versa)it is documented by William Motherwell (Child's "favourite" ballad collector, second only to Percy in quantity) that singers would alter either. He notes that singers would change the sound and the stress of words to emphasise a rhyme, or simply to fit the tune. In part, this is how we get spellings in written-down ballads of words such as "hie" for "high". They actually changed the pronunciation. In a similar vein, Motherwell records how the tune would change from verse to verse. I'm sure it wouldn't break into a rock or tango timing, but something subtler and closer to what pipers cal the urlar, or "ground" tune.
On the subject of tunes: Motherwells collection needs to be treated with some care. There seems to be no doubt about their authenticity or their accuracy (the notations were carried out by two accredited musicians, Robert A. Smith and Andrew Blaikie), but no-where are you told which text goes with the tune.
On the issue of "The first Ballad" - mine was at school, in the mid 1950s, when we got Barbara Allan (whether we like it or not - I loved it). However, having been drawn to folk music in the early 60s, I set myself a challenge - Captain Wedderburns Courtship.
And lastly - for Jack Campin - The Baron of Brackley is a very strident and stiking tune, BUT, gavin Greig doubted it's authenticity (it came from Dean Christie).
Is that important? - discuss!

---

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Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Willa
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 09:11 AM

Valmai and EKanne (I wish you'd become a member, E!-it would make 'conversation' easier)

You are both too far away from me for me to benefit from your ballad workshops; I would love to attend!

I do think that each of us has 'our' version of a ballad, which may vary only slightly from the original, perhaps because we have picked it up from another singer, or perhaps even because we've never heard it sung. In some cases for me, it is because a verse I didn't know but heard someone else sing made the story much clearer to me.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:21 AM

Weird, I just wrote this, clicked on 'submit' and it vanished. Here I go again.
On the subject of tune fitting I think that the old singers had a more flexible approach than the modern singer. Hamish Henderson recalled mentioning a song to Jeannie Robertson and how it resembled her 'Gypsy Laddie'. Next time they met she sang him the ballad set to the tune of the other song. Similarly, I found a Flemish tune called, 'Schoon Lief' (beautiful girl) which fitted 'Barbara Allen' so beautifully that it is difficult for me to believe that the two don't belong together. (Liz and I recorded this on our second album)
The first ballad I knew was 'Raggle Taggle Gypsies' from my Dad who couldnt hold a tune very well.Then I got 'Lord Randal' from my Mum, who could. I then learned 'Barbara Allen' at school. I didn't like any of them particularly as a kid and saw no real merit in them until much later in life. I wonder if ballads are a bit like food and drink? Perhaps you need to be older and have a certain amount of life experience under you belt to fully appreciate their sublety?