Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 04:48 PM

"However - this raises what I believe to be a major problem - insensitive audiences who don't listen to what the singer is doing but instead, plough ahead with what THEY want to do."

I agree with what Jim said about choruses/refrains - it's one of my bugbears as well. I would actually distinguish between a 'chorus' and a 'refrain'. A chorus is something for the audience to join in with (if they must - yes, even the tiresome bellowers, dirge merchants and the pestilential harmonisers) but a refrain is an integral part of the poetry of a narrative song - a device to build tension, and sometimes, I feel, it's best if it's left to the singer.

By the way, if I think the bellowers, dirge merchants etc. in the audience are slowing me down I try to carry on regardless at my own pace, or even occasionally miss a beat at the end of a verse to really throw them off.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

here is a version of the False Knight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBouEwP1WHM

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 06:44 PM

I've always been fascinated by this version of The Dowie Dens of Yarrow, sung by Max Hunter and collected from Herbert Philbrick in Crocker, Missouri.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 07:10 PM

My favourite Yarrow is, of course, Davie Stewart's, which might be previewed HERE. Not quite sure what Max Hunter is up to there; & sadly there doesn't appear to be a recording of Herbert Philbrick's version to compare it with. There are however a couple of absolute crackers up there more than worthy of our attention:

Almeda Riddle - Fair Willie Drowned in Yarrow

Mrs. Lola Stanley - The Derry Dems of Arrow

Play 'em and weep!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 07:12 PM

I was bemused by the alternate version noted at the bottom of that page.... "The Derry Dems of Arrow"

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 07:26 PM

Yes it's always interesting to see the various permutations that happened once the ballads crossed the pond.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 04:22 AM

It is, of course, evidence of what we call The Folk Process, which is an essential / defining factor of an / the Oral Tradition. I think in the case of Derry Dems of Arrow we're seeing a very purposeful transportation of Child #241 into a western scenario. Do we know of any other versions that feature cowboys? Might even Mrs Stanley have done the work herself? Whatever the case, the Wild West frontier mythos provides a worthy context for the ballad, in much the same way that Sergio Leone reinvented Kurasawa's Yojimbo as A Fistful of Dollars - only 6 years after Hunter recorded Mrs Stanley! Being both a fan of Ballads & Westerns (Spaghetti & others) I must say this one appeals to me greatly.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 05:13 AM

If anyone's in the Lewes area today, come to the Elephant & Castle from noon until at least 3.00 p.m. where the Lewes Saturday Folk Club is running a free ballads-only session. Sandra Goddard is in the chair.

This follows our successful and thoroughly delightful annual Sussex all-day singaround yesterday, which brought in about a hundred people from a very wide area in the course of the day.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 09:29 AM

Ballads and Westerns - while getting immersed in Jamie Telfer of the Fair Dodheid I kept thinking, this is a Clint Eastwood movie - goodies and baddies, some treachery on the goodies' side, the goodies win but one of them gets killed. Then I remembered some of the cowboy songs I used to love as a kid - El Paso, Ghost Riders in the Sky - are these - I venture to ask - essentially different from what we call ballads?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 10:11 AM

Westerns — didn't Sharp or Karpeles {or was it the Lomaxes} report somewhere of collecting a version of the Douglas Tragedy, at the conclusion of which the singer said, "And my father saw it too — it happened in the valley over yonder, two men got quarreling over a girl & one of them got shot."? This from a vague memory, as will be realised — anyone a more precise reference?

No, stop — I've found it: I had remembered it sort of right, so will allow the above para to stand {as example of my own sort of folk process, perhaps} — but here is the full & correct citation:— It is at the end of Ch VII of Matthew Hodgart's The Ballads [Hutchinson 1950], attributed to "a recent collector in the Appalachians" {citation at end of quote}: "The Americans have a ballad called 'The Seven Sleepers', a version of 'Earl Brand' ({Child} 7), which ultimately derives from ancient germanic epic. One old man told the collector: 'The Seven Sleepers was a true song. It happened way back yonder in Mutton Hollow. i was there myself. Somebody got killed over the girl. I was there soon after it happened. Another man was after the girl and one man shot him'." (Footnote - Quoted by Entwistle in 'European Balladry' 1939,p3, from Dorothy Scarborough, "A Song Catcher In The Southern Mountains", NY 1937.)

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 10:45 AM

Ahhh...I'm not a bit surprised at that story, MtheGM. So many of the themes are common to people down thru the centuries. Not nearly as many sisters pushing each other in the river, perhaps....but men fighting over a girl? Jilted lovers getting revenge? A girl running away with charismatic strangers?
All it takes is a couple of name changes and someone hears the song and says: "Why, sure....I think my daddy knew them."

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 11:41 AM

There are a number of accounts of singers claiming direct knowledge of real events underlying the ballads they sang. I'm thinking about a very gruesome backstory to 'The Unquiet Grave' described in David Atkinson's 'The English Traditional Ballad' - and wasn't there something like this concerning Jeannie Robertson and 'My Son David'? If anyone's got any more specific examples I'd like to hear them. It's the same kind of thing as you find with apocryphal tales, that are always claimed to have happened to someone known to the teller.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 11:53 AM

... or more, Brian, to someone known to a friend of the teller. My friend Rodney Dale, who has published many books on so-called 'urban-legends', coined the name FOAF-tales — FOAF = 'friend·of·a·friend', the person whose grannie's corpse was always the one stolen with his car, or who woke up after a binge minus a kidney...

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 01:11 PM

The Western version of the Cowboy's Barbara Allen is discussed in this thread by Q and Art Thieme.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 01:29 PM

made all the boys ride saddle sore,she was either a nymphomaniac,or a sadist,or possibly both.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 04:20 PM

To go back to Brian's post about the 'backstory' for singer's versions of their songs -- I'm not sure that there was any explanation behind Jeannie Robertson's version of 'Son David', but I am sure that it was a very significant song for her, because her only son had died young, so her memory of loss was very strong. (Apologies for not taking the time to check this just now, but will do later, and if there's any further info. - I'll post it.)
Before I go, you might be interested to hear that Gordeanna McCulloch and myself did the first of three ballad workshops in Glasgow this afternoon - not part of Celtic Connections - and had 23 hardworking participants, between one third and one half of whom were ballad novices. All were enthusiastic and some were passionate, which confirms my belief that there is a real audience out there for these songs.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: meself
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 05:25 PM

By way of illustrating several matters that have been discussed here, I'm submitting a link to a "preview" of the NFB documentary about song-collector and folklorist Helen Creighton: A Sigh and a Wish. In it, you will find four or five samples of field recordings of 'source singers' juxtaposed with 'revivalist' interpretations of the same songs, as well as an unusual rendition of False Knight in which trad. singer and fiddler Ben Henneberry intersperses the verses with alternating A & B turns of Flowers of Edinburgh on fiddle. Some commentary and pontification from various folkie nabobs as well.

(Btw, if you like the 'preview', you will certainly like the full documentary. And vice versa.)

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: meself
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:13 AM

(Correction: that's Ben's son Edmund Henneberry doing False Knight.)

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:02 AM

Interesting link. The 'source' performances belong to a different level of musical vibrancy to those of the revival. Where did it all go so horribly wrong I wonder?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:27 AM

Actually, that should be why did it all go so horribly wrong; the where is pretty much self evident.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:56 AM

it hasnt always gone horribly wrong,its just changed.,and there are some good revival singers performers ,who clearly still listen to source singers.
commercialism has played a part,plus the idea of listening to sounds rather than words,result: over elaborate accompaniments.,and on occasions thoughtless singing
but the real difference betwen Sarah and Tommy,is that she sung the songs all the time for her enjoyment while she was doing different jobs .
Tommy clearly didnt sing around the house,he practised his songs and performed them for audiences.,he clearly played for his own enjoyment as well,but he didnt sing while he was working at other jobs[otherwise Sarah would not have made the statement"I never heard Tommy sing]
so the attitude to the songs was different.
one other difference[in style] is that Tommy has a slight classical sound[possibly as a result of his choir training].
the other day I listened to the Transatlantic sessions[aly bain],all competent musicians,but the result [imo]was a bland mish mash of rootlessness,the music lacked something, the joi de vivre was missing

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST,Crow Sister (flying vist)
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 09:25 AM

Many thanks for everyone keeping this thread flowing.

"all competent musicians,but the result [imo]was a bland mish mash of rootlessness,the music lacked something, the joi de vivre was missing"

Aye, I'm afraid I can't disagree with that summation Good Soldier - it tallies with some of my own thoughts! Despite best intentions and worthy efforts, I've found a lot of revival folk tricky in the whole to 'get into', but especially the more current 'revival' bands. But while there is good stuff out there, I finally cracked the other day upon listening to Jim Causley's 'Rolling of the Stones', which (IMO) was so devoid of any heart or genuine feeling for the *song* that I likened his rendering to a lifeless corpse being dragged along behind a jolly waggon of rustic merrymakers (fiddles, squeezeboxes and all).

The *song* however was so good, that I was inspired to learn to sing it for myself. (..luckily for me of course, Mr. Causley will never be in a position to slag my rendering of RotS's orf, hehe!)

Keep on Keeping it Real Folk Fans!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 09:44 AM

Regarding the Sarah : Tommy Makem issue, it may be interesting to some to hear them sing together, for example on the Diane Hamilton collection recording 'The Lark in the Morning' (where they sing the Little Beggarman), which was recorded in the latter half of 1955

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 09:54 AM

Rolling of the Stones is, of course, one of most fascinating bits of fragmentation of a big ballad, Two Brothers [Child #49] - sometimes down to only 3 or 4 quatrains, so that the story turns into a sort of mystic incantation like Heather Woods' exquisite version on Young Traditions 'Galleries' all those years ago. I have a particular, purely mnemonic. affection for it myself coz it just happened to be the first song I ever sang on tv, in a documentary about a Poets' Picnic that Valerie & I were performing in in Somerset.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Diva
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 09:58 AM

Anne you are Absolutely right about Son David it is in Porter and Hershal's book about Jeanie. Delighted to hear about the turnout for the ballad workshop and I'm looking forward to next Sunday

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 10:26 AM

I've been taking a long hard look at Rolling of the Stones recently myself, a song that has been with me now since 1976 and one which Jim Causeley's rendition prompted a similar reaction to CS (see HERE) for which I received a double tongue-lashing from Diane Easby & Joan Crump who mistook what is a fair & honest appraisal as nastiness. Nothing could be further from the truth - after all, it takes a lot of talented musicianship, professionalism & dedicated hard work to make such wholly dispiriting & soul-destroying music - just listen to Mantovani, or The Carpenters, or even Queen. For my own post-revival version of RotS see HERE.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 11:16 AM

MtheGM: "Rolling of the Stones is, of course, one of most fascinating bits of fragmentation of a big ballad, Two Brothers [Child #49] - sometimes down to only 3 or 4 quatrains, so that the story turns into a sort of mystic incantation"

Yeah, fragments can be so captivating somehow, so many open spaces for the imagination to animate (or imbue with anima/Soul). On a bit of a tangent, but fragments of say Sappho for example can have the most profoundly evocative impact. In any event, yes indeed, the incantatory nature of the repeated phrases in conjunction with (and counterpointed with) the necromantic verses, is genuinely enchanting.

And with token reference to the thread topic, I'll have to take a proper look at Two Brothers now.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:50 PM

crow sister and suibhne,take no notice of abuse.
I have had loads of it on this forum,I just go off and play some music.
I saw mawkin causley,without Jim Causley,when I was playing at Ryedale,not my taste at all.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:53 PM

There's a great deal of speculation around what Sarah Makem said about her son's singing - I wonder if anybody can back it up with solid information - I can't.
I (and the person who first told me of it) always assumed that it was that she felt that he had no feel for traditional songs. It wasn't that he couldn't hold a tune or project his voice - he certainly could.
It's always made sense to me that Tommy Makem was one of the people who became swept up in the comemercial side of folk singing, donned the uniform (in this case an Aran pullover), and, along with the Clancys became a 'formulaic' singer, applying a set technique to everything he/they did.
It's like the old musician said in the film, Round Midnight - "Your notes are fine, but where's your story".
I have to say that 'group' singing of traditional songs, with very few exceptions, never worked for me on narrative songs. There are examples of traditional songs that cry out for group treatment: shanties, waulking songs, some of those connected with rituals or customs, but as far as 'story' songs go, I have always thought that an individual approach is the most effective. Anything else becomes too much of a compromise on both technique and interpretation.
My feeling - for what it's worth.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST,Crowsis'
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:44 AM

"crow sister and suibhne,take no notice of abuse."

I didn't see the cited abuse Good Soldier, but I must presume it was a disgruntled Causley fan? Of course one must never criticise the quality of the art of young(ish) folk slebrities around here - how silly of me to forget ;-) However abuse aside, this tangential discussion does have some significance to the core subject of the thread. Repeatedly on this thread, we are hearing from lovers of ballads about the crucial importance of getting *inside the story* and *communicating the story* to the audience. I'd suggest that requires gentleness and humility. Being not so impressed with your talents that you end up using the the song merely as a vehicle for a display of ones vocal and instrumental expertise.

This crucial aspect, is *for me* what I feel is absent from much of what I've heard of the current flush of British folk bands, which is perhaps why I find myself unmoved (and even disheartened by) such display of excellent musiscianship, which nevertheless fails (for me at least) to 'connect' to the soul of the song. And even (or so it seems) appears to make no attempt whatsoever to do so, which oddly I somehow find genuinely saddening. It's probably also why I'll never really be a 'folk music' fan (by which I mean "folk" as defined by the Music Industry and its punters) but will conversely inevitably remain thoroughly taken by traditional songs and learning to sing them myself.

I've been discovering how thoroughly precious they are this past year or so. And it's like a minor revelation when you start to feel your way inside and the song begins to live for you, unfolding itself delicately like a magical miniature world. When I first started singing people told me I had a lovely voice and I get lots of compliments for my voice still, but however pleasing that may be (and of course it's nice to hear) it means absolutely dick if I fail to address the *song* with gentleness and humility and thus allow that magical little world to show itself to me and to those I sing it for. But I'm literall only just beginning to find my own 'voice', by which I mean discovering how the song wants to be sung through me, so to speak. So stepping into ballads is proving quite intriguing as it feels like I'm exercising newly discovered muscles! And frankly I'm not all that happy with my efforts thus far. But I'm so glad that people here have shared so much about their intimate relationships with these long ballads, because at least I feel like I'm starting off down the right road..

'And see not ye that bonny road,
Which winds about the fernie brae?
That is the road to fair Elfland,
Where you and I this night maun gae.'

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:57 AM

it takes a lot of talented musicianship, professionalism & dedicated hard work to make such wholly dispiriting & soul-destroying music

Anyone got a number for Jim Causley's marketing people?

GSS: I saw mawkin causley,without Jim Causley,when I was playing at Ryedale

You were diddled - that was just Mawkin.

I'll get my coat.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 09:44 AM

Returning to my 'singer's backstory' angle for a moment, Anne wrote:

"I'm not sure that there was any explanation behind Jeannie Robertson's version of 'Son David', but I am sure that it was a very significant song for her, because her only son had died young, so her memory of loss was very strong. (Apologies for not taking the time to check this just now, but will do later, and if there's any further info. - I'll post it.)"

I've now found the snippet I was thinking about, and (like the 'Unquiet Grave' example I mentioned) it's in Atkinson's 'The English Traditional Ballad'. I was wrong in thinking that Jeannie claimed any personal connection with the events in 'My Son David', but she did give both Herschel Gower and Alan Lomax a detailed description, in the most everyday language, of the motivation behind the ballad, in which 'Son David' was merely defending himself against his jealous younger brother, and killed him in a fight. No hint of the folklorists' 'incest' theories in her account! Despite the absence of any 'friend-of-a-friend' connection, it's interesting that the singer provided such a detailed rationalization of the ballad she sang - if nothing else, it's another demonstration of the singer getting inside the ballad tale.

And going back to how we sing them, I explained above why I'm sceptical of the 'let the song sing you' school of thought, but I do think Crow Sister is on the ball with:
"I'd suggest that [ballad singing] requires gentleness and humility. Being not so impressed with your talents that you end up using the the song merely as a vehicle for a display of ones vocal and instrumental expertise."

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:05 PM

I was not diddled, because I was paid to perform,so obviously I didnt pay to see other performers.
thanks Brian for the info on my son david, a song Ilearned from the singing of Jeannie Robertson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJhyDS_jd3I

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:34 PM

=== Being not so impressed with your talents that you end up using the the song merely as a vehicle for a display of ones vocal and instrumental expertise."===

I see what CS means by this, & why Brian quotes it approvingly. But surely every performance one gives of anything should be to the best of one's ability which surely = using such 'expertise' as one has. The word 'merely' is a bit tendentious here, I can't help thinking; as if there were something dishonourable in being as expressive as one can & that someone who puts real effort into performing is somehow acting against the true interests of the song. I don't want to push this point too far or seem as if I am totally disagreeing with the attitudes expressed; perhaps I just mean that there might be a tendency to lean too far in the other direction against putting anything 'personal' into one's rendition.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 02:07 PM

good point, MGM.I think what was meant, was to avoid being over dramatic.
IMO Ballads do not need to be sung in the style of Gilbert and Sullivan,or in an operatic style.
I do remember seeing a floorsinger years ago who over dramatised ballads and made herself and the song look ridiculous, however I am not trying to tell people how to do it, merely stating my preferences.
can you imagine William Topaz mcgonagle singing ballads

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:22 PM

Crow Sister spoke of tackling ballads with "gentleness and humility", and while I'm absolutely in agreement with the notion of humility, I'm not sure what is meant by gentleness. I'd appreciate some elucidation.
Other posts spoke of not over-dramatising and not using the song as a vehicle for instrumental prowess.
Now I have no problem with the latter, having never played an instrument, and I hope I don't over-dramatise -- but for some of the ballads I sing (Lamkin, The Twa Sisters, Lord Donald/Randal, The Bonnie Hoose o' Airlie, Lizzie Wan and possibly others) I do need 'access' to a harder edge. This is not a calculated, rehearsed 'performance', but rather where the story takes me.
So "gentleness" threw me!
Help, please, Crow Sister.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:15 PM

"Help, please, Crow Sister."

Sorry KEanne, it was a poor choice of words! I couldn't quite sum up what I was thinking. I think what I was getting at was a metaphorical 'treat with condideration' or 'integrity', to tread gently with it at first - much in the way you might on first reading a poem, or indeed meeting someone you find attractive!

I keep thinking of the cautionary Legend of Knockgrafton in reference to treading gently here, and how Jack Madden foolishly offended the wee folk by blundering arrogantly into their song.. and we all know what became of him!

I don't know, I think others with much more experience have described things better than me!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:35 PM

Crow Sister, thanks for your prompt reply. Of course, I should have realised what you meant, because here in Scotland there is a saying - "Ca' canny" - which means something like 'Go carefully/Take care' and (by extension) 'Don't rush in!".
Seems to me that what we're saying is that the initial approach to any ballad is exactly that -- the start of a process of familiarisation during which the singer gets to grips over a period of time with the story, finds solutions for the tricky bits, and settles into the ballad until it becomes like a second skin.
It's not a quick fix, but good things come to those who wait!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 04:59 AM

"But surely every performance one gives of anything should be to the best of one's ability which surely = using such 'expertise' as one has... "

Yes, definitely. I'm all for personal interpretation and brilliant performances. But nonetheless I can remember performances during which I felt that I was being treated primarily to an exhibition of vocal or instrumental technique, and that the performer had been less interested in the ballad and its story than in their own accomplishments. Where you draw the line is of course a matter of personal taste.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 05:04 AM

No disagreement between us, Brian. A performance such as the one you describe is not 'to the best of ability', practically by definition. But I do indeed certainly take your point & agree re line-drawing variables.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 05:23 AM

I've also had the experience of sitting in a singaround when the next person to sing was known to have a lot of interest in ballads but no great voice (in a technical sense). My heart was preparing to sink when my eyes were snapped open by a performance that nailed the story -- and I know that I wasn't the only person in the room to be taken by surprise.
So, what was the difference on that occasion? I've thought about this often and the best answer I can offer is that in that particular singaround the singer in question had set self aside; earlier performances by the same person had possibly required the audience to like the singer before liking the song.
Does that ring any bells with anyone else?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 05:31 AM

but this applies to all music.
music should not be not about showing off, it is about sensitivity, interpretation, communication of feeling.
doing justice to a ballad,is the above poster stated,about interpretation,a good accmpaniment should be an accompaniment,it should not be about a 32 bar instrumental.
that sort of thing belongs in the jazz world,where sounds are more important than lyrics.
dont misunderstand me I like Jazz too,but it is a different genre

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST,Drumshanty
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 08:06 AM

Set self aside?

Oh aye, this one rings many bells for me.

I rarely sing ballads, although I have done so in competitions. In fact, EKanne, you once judged me, and told me that I'd seemed to lose interest in the song halfway through, which came across in my singing. I suspect that was at the point where my mind started going "Oi! You! You can't do this. What do you think you're doing? This song's too long. Look, they're not listening. The judges are bored. And that was a really really bum note you just sang. What's the next line? What's the next line?!" This happens to me all the time, ballad or no, competition or no, and I am wondering if dealing with that sort of thing is what you mean by setting self aside.

Is it a novice thing? A confidence thing? Can it be dealt with by practice or experience?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 09:58 AM

Practice, practice, practice. Eventually it gets to the point where - if somebody yawns at the wrong moment or you catch the wrong person's eye - you can feel yourself starting to go blank and panic, but you find the next line is still there when you get to it.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 10:03 AM

Yes, yes, yes to having been moved by a ballad sung by someone who wasn't a particularly good singer - moved to tears, as a matter of fact, by someone whose voice was rather quavering and not always in tune. But they nailed it. Conversely I've been left cold by people with beautiful voices who hit every note.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 10:46 AM

Drumshanty - I think most of the answer to your question lies in the opening remark "I rarely sing ballads". Remember that a competition is an artificial situation anyway, so to tackle a ballad that you don't sing frequently is to put yourself under undue pressure. Pip Radish offered good advice, to practise a lot, and I would also suggest that choosing the right ballad is very important.
If you're fearful that it's too long, then try to find a shorter version; if you worry that it might be dragging, then consider learning one of the more rhythmic or pacy ballads like 'The Wee Toon Clerk'; and if you don't love, don't do it!
Remember too that people you may hear who sing ballads impressively now, were probably just as beset by doubt as yourself when they first started. And also bear in mind that most of these same people would be happy to talk ballads with you, and perhaps offer you some tips about what works for them.
There's some great advice on this forum, from the points of view of both novices and more experienced singers -- but the best advice is to keep doing it!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 10:56 AM

the problem is that even professional singers cant get it right all the time.
I recently sang[at gigs] willy of the winesbury,twice in three nights,the first time it was ok,the second time I really got in to it,in fact I have never sung it so well before or since,I thought afterwards how do i follow that.
one person in the audience realised and compilmented me on my singing of it[hello Helen Pitt].
the problem is we are not machines, that can always get it right 100 percent of the time,if we can get it right 50 percent of the time thats good, but its important to keep trying to get it right.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 11:47 AM

All the vocal and instrumental techniques that Brian Peters refers to a few posts above may be tools in my toolbox, but I need to see the story play out (like a movie) and tell the story afresh each time. While I have access to all those tools (breath support, timbre, timing, etc.) and have an idea of how to use them to get the effects I want, each telling of the tale or singing of the song needs to be freshly assembled if it is to be any good. Otherwise, I could just play some recording. But creating it anew each time in the present moment is what engages me, and my listeners notice and take pleasure in that.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 02:24 PM

Drumshanty:
"....I'd seemed to lose interest in the song halfway"
All singing is, or should be a balance between technique, involvement and interpretation - it sounds to me as if you've lost that balance and have become more concerned with how you are doing a song and how the audience is feeling rather than the song itself.
It happened to me when we first moved to Ireland a found the songs I was singing were totally different than the usual repertoire here.
In the end I said, "Sod it; these are too good not to sing", so I retreated totally back into the songs themselves, and began to enjoy them again.
The best bit of adivice I ever got was when we interviewed MacColl - excuse me if you've heard it - I do tend to quote it a lot.
Jim Carroll

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it. Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening. And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss. If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference. It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know. It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:08 PM

Certainly it's about so much more than learning the song!

Singing a ballad (to myself) the other day, I realised I'd started using a particular bit of ornamentation to emphasise certain lines. I couldn't immediately think when I'd started doing this, but I eventually traced it back to when I learned Out of the window (a relative of She moved through the fair). That tune included this particular run of notes, which must then have got stuck in my voice memory, & re-emerged in the completely different ballad I was singing the other day.

But the real point of the story is that I had dreadful trouble learning that tune, that run in particular: to begin with my voice just wouldn't do what I was telling it to, and I had to sing it at half speed so as to get the notes right. So there's a case where a few hours of really dogged, mechanical Figaro-Figaro practising resulted in a real extension to my singing technique.