BS: Judicial murder in China

Subject: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:27 AM

Akmal Shaikah, a mentally ill Britain, was today executed by the Chinese authorities despite please for clemency from around the globe.

The deliberate taking of a human life in this way, for whatever reason, is murder pure and simple. The death penalty has no place in any society that considers itself to be civilised - there are no arguments and no reasons that can condone it. Those who support the death penalty in any country in the world are accomplicies to murder.

I would urge anyone who condemns this behaviour to take a few moments to ponder on this issue in support of Mr Shaikah and the thousands of others who are put to death every year by barbaric governments across the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 07:05 AM

Here here.

Spare a thought for the nameless thousands murdered in Tibet and China too. Thanks to the greed of the west, China can now do just what they want (like they did in Copenhagen).

This is a tragedy for Shaikah and his family.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 07:49 AM

He had no history of "mentally illness". Please respect the laws of this country. He was found guilty of one of the most vile and repulsive crimes in our society. Some might consider these crimes inexcusable, while others might consider these to be your average, everyday crime. They are not, they are done for personal gain and lifestyle at the expense of the lives of others.

You may well wish to remain blind to see the sheer misery his wares could bring into this country. I admire them for what they did and wish the British government would learn from it instead of providing such people with Pool tables and wide screen televisions in the Hotels here they call prisons.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:22 AM

I oppose the death penalty. I also recognize the right of a sovereign nation to carry out justice according to its legal system.

China's justice is harsh. Choose another country in which to break the law if you value your life.

Shaikah's family has suffered a bitter loss. I pity them. China has made it clear that it will excute drug dealers in spite of international pressure.

I wonder which message will be proved more effective - the US swinging door that puts dealers back out on the streets despite repeated offences or the Chinese death penalty.

For the record, my son is a drug addict despite years of rehab. I have no qualms about murdering drug dealers.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:25 AM

So,what do you suggest,Mr Leveller ?? Are we to bombard China with nuclear missiles ?? Boycott anything that is manufactured there ( which is virtually everything nowadays) ?? Recall our Ambassador ??Send a note ? (We have no gunboats any more). Or face up to the fact that it is A) inadvisable to undertake visits in the first place,to a country where the death penalty exists for up to sixty ( I think ?)different offences ,including adultery & rape, and B) if we simply MUST go there, it is MOST UNWISE to take along,whether knowingly or un-knowingly,any proscribed substances.
          As to the mental state of the man concerned, I could not possibly comment,although if he WAS suffering from any disorder ( Bipolarism has been suggested but not authenticated?),then his nearest & dearest should have prevented him from undertaking such a potentially hazardous,for one whose Mentis is not wholly Compos,expedition.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:31 AM

"Please respect the laws of this country."

Absolutely not. I have no respect for laws that murder people and countries that have no respect for human life. Should I respect the laws of countries where women are stoned to death, people are tortured and other repressive pratices are used? To commit judicial murder puts you on a par with the criminal. If you support that, you are an accomplice to murder and, therefore, by your own moral priciples, should suffer the same consequences.

Let me quote a passage from Tzetan Todorov, one of the great commentators on the twentieth century and especially the barbarities of the Soviet gulags and Nazi death camps, in his book Hope and Memory:

"The death penalty is not just an ineffective weapon in the fight against crime; it also has a negative effect on the society that uses it. Like other fotrms of vengeance, it creates the illusion that evil can be got rid of in the person of the guilty party...this punishment implies that the criminal is incapable of change. For Rousseau, perfectibility was the very definition of the human: unlike other animals, human beings are not determined by their nature and are capable of changes by acts of free will. THIS CONCEPT OF HUMANITY LIES AT THE ROOT OF DEMOCRATIC RULE (my caps)... we may therefore question whether states that continue to make wide use of the death penalty can really be considered part of the democratic world."


"I admire them for what they did"

Then you can in no way assume the moral high ground. Like I said, that makes you an accomplice to the murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:36 AM

"So,what do you suggest,Mr Leveller ??"

So what do you suggest we do, Mr Bubblyrat? Bury our heads in the sand? Look the other way? I think you should consider what happened in Nazi Germany. Or perhaps you think that was OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:37 AM

Absolutely not? Then feel free to travel to China, Saudi Arabia or any other country with harsh, unforgiving laws and break them.

What are you suggesting be done?
Other than the pondering you already suggested?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:40 AM

Sinsull uses the word 'murder' here in, if I interpret correctly, implied quotes. 'Judicial murder' is, of course, an emotive oxymoron. If judicial, it can't really be murder, except rhetorically.

Falco understandably defends the ways of his country; but the Chinese do seem, by comparison with most, somewhat execution-happy.   So do several MidEast countries — they seem to top quite a lot of people, by stoning or beheading, for various sexual offences &c, in several states like Saudi. And certain states of the USA do seem to go on with such procedures rather more than somewhat. & we have the long-running thread about wherever·it·is that wants to execute homosexuals, which has understandably long since lost the thread [ambiguity intentional] & become just an exchange of views on the morality & implications of the homosexual lifestyle.

I am not quite so vehemently opposed to any form of capital punishment as I was when young — some crimes seem so unpardonable that their perpetrators might almost be said to have resigned the right to membership of humanity and such 'right to life' as such status would warrant. But if such sanctions are to obtain, a great degree of circumspectness and moderation is surely essential. [I only say if — and I am aware these reflections are imprecise and inchoate.]

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:40 AM

Nazi Germany?
Flame alert. Nothing to be accomplished here but inflammatory rhetoric.
Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:43 AM

I'm back.
Sad but true, I did not misspeak. I have no qualms about murdering drug dealers.
I was not speaking about China's capital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:45 AM

If only more countries would take this approach with convicted drug dealers. Drud dealing is harmful and illegal and no one should find excuses for them.

Many here have expressed concern about growing cocaine use, particularly in western Europe, where demand was reaching alarming levels.

Too many professional, educated people use cocaine, often denying their addiction, and drug abuse by celebrities is often presented uncritically by the media leaving young people confused and vulnerable.

Drug deaths in Europe are at their highest ever.

I repeat, I admire China for what they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:47 AM

"What are you suggesting be done?"

For a start, support the many wordwide organisations that are seeki8ng to combat this sort of behaviour. Secondly, lobby our own government to make it clear that it is not acceptable. Thirdly, if you live in a country that still exercises the death penaly, (like the USA), use you voices and your votes to oppose this.

"Then feel free to travel to China, Saudi Arabia or any other country with harsh, unforgiving laws and break them."

Why would I want to do that? Do you think that would achieve something? Are you saying that the way to oppose these laws is to become a criminal? Sounds like muddled thinking to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:49 AM

"I also recognize the right of a sovereign nation to carry out justice according to its legal system."

Like Hitler's Third Reich? Pol Pot perhaps? What about Saddam's legal system? All sovereign countries.

"China's justice is harsh."

Too true; they also execute people for tax evasion and any number of other crimes some of which expose China's deep hypocrisy: from wikipedia.

"then his nearest & dearest should have prevented him from undertaking such a potentially hazardous,for one whose Mentis is not wholly Compos,expedition."

Perhaps if you have no direct experience of mental illness or people suffering from it you should think harder before making fatuous statements like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:53 AM

Face it folks... The world isn't thet way that we want it... Other countries do some purdy un-human things... Ahhhhh, so does the United States... We put kids to death... We allow people in Texas to be rounded up, have confessions beat out of them, appoint dumb attorneys who sleep in court while supposedly defending them and then, ahhhhhh, murder them...

Yeah, if the United States wants to be this great protector of human rights, it can get to work right here at home first before trying to impose it's hypocrisy on others...

With that said, yeah, that was a purdy dumb un-human thing that the Chinese did... QWhat are we gonna do??? Nuke them???

Oh, while I'm on it, George W is responsible for upwards of a million peiople being killed just so he and his boys could get their jollies and he is still a free man... What gives there???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:53 AM

"Flame alert. Nothing to be accomplished here but inflammatory rhetoric."

On the contrary, this is exactly what we should be considering. Care to comment on the quote from Tzetan Todorov above?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:56 AM

First,


Leveller, ignore Falco. His whole post is an obvious list of deliberate provocations.


Second,


Sinsull, Leveller hhas taken a second to mark the tragedy of a man who was murdered for a crime that he may not have committed.

He was bi-polar as was confirmed by his family doctor.

He was arrested in Urumqi.

For those who live in a media free hole, Urumqi is curretly in the midst of violent political upheaval. Thousands of people have died there recently, many of them Moslems.

I suspect that Akmal Shaikah, a Bipolar Moslem, got himself into trouble while speaking his mind.

I suspect that the drugs were indeed planted.



Bubblyrat,

So we should avoid countries with the death penalty should we?

Ever been to the USA?



Back to Sinsull - Levellers point is about the death penalty.


You live in the USA.


Here's somethig you can do ... everything you can to stp your country commiting institutiionalized murder.


Bubblyrat,

"then his nearest & dearest should have prevented him from undertaking such a potentially hazardous,for one whose Mentis is not wholly Compos,expedition."

So its their fault that he is dead - thanks for that.

"if we simply MUST go there, it is MOST UNWISE to take along,whether knowingly or un-knowingly,any proscribed substances."

So it is unwise to do something when you don't know you are doing it ... hmmm ... thanks for that.

"So,what do you suggest,Mr Leveller ??"

Try reading his post.

He said "I would urge anyone who condemns this behaviour to take a few moments to ponder on this issue in support of Mr Shaikah and the thousands of others who are put to death every year by barbaric governments across the globe."


In short - reflect on a ghastly event in history.


It was perhaps unwise of Leveller write this when there are bitter hateful people out there like you who will aggressively resist any suggestion to reflect on anything.

Instead you come up with mean hearted and preposterous reasons why he deserved to die.

According to you he deserved to die because he was an Idiot and so were his family.

What a twisted cruel heart you have.


Leveller,

to get back to the point of the thread,


I too found this very sad and I too think that the death penalty is the definitive mark of barbarism.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:02 AM

Sinsull writes,

"Flame alert. Nothing to be accomplished here but inflammatory rhetoric."


But in fact Levellers comparison is tame.


The chinese communiist party has murdered more people than the Nazi's several times over.

The cultural revolution on its own was comparable.

In the following quote,

"I think you should consider what happened in Nazi Germany. Or perhaps you think that was OK."

Leveller asks us to "consider what happened".

Is that too hard for people to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:13 AM

"I have no qualms about murdering drug dealers."

Well now that I am aware of your blood-lust I am in a better position to understand your position.

I anticipate your angry list of reasons why in this case it is ok to hate, destroy and be a hypocrite.

The death penalty is always hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:21 AM

Possibly,Leveller,I am older than you are ? As a child,I grew up under the umbrella of safety that our government and its laws provided for us. We all, even aged six or seven,knew that there were "naughty men " ( and some women) about,who would never dare to touch,harm,molest,or God forbid,murder us ,because they would suffer the ultimate penalty themselves. We were endlessly taught,at school,"Thou Shalt Not Kill" and "An Eye For An Eye, A Tooth For A Tooth"; a contradiction,perhaps,but even as children we could see the logic of it. We walked,played,and roamed around in the Sussex countryside,sometimes in company,sometimes alone,both by day and by night,cushioned by this safety net.
         It wasn't Utopia,and it wasn't perfect, and yes,there were some nasty incidents (but only VERY FEW),and I remember feeling both safer and comforted when Daddy said " That wicked man who killed the little girl has been hanged" ---Sadly,that's a relief that the children of today,subjected as they are to endless,drivelling,socio-political claptrap will be denied. But not in China.And that must remain the Chinese government's decision and,indeed,prerogative.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:30 AM

Children still walk, roam and play in the sussex countryside Bubblyrat, and it has no bearing on the death penalty.

As for Drivel and claptrap:

Your comments excusing the chinese government for murdering Akmal Shaikah on the basis that he and his family were idiots is utter bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:32 AM

What would you like done Lox, tranfer him to a British jail for a few months of R & R, Let him hit the streets in a few months time to kill British children ? By the way he was NEVER treated for Mental illness.

China is doing all it can to make their country a world leader.
We are doing all we can to turn the UK into a third class nation.
Just look back over the last 13 years and see how they have improved.

Look back over the last 13 years and see how we have lost our position in the world rankings.
Don't knock China, we will be going to them with a begging bowl when we have turned ourselves into one big drugs ghetto.

Talk until you are blue in the face, but justice has been served.
Job well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:39 AM

I think that you are wrong, "Lox"---It must surely be the legally unfettered and socially undetterred ,indeed almost acceptable ( by a resigned and largely apathetic Public)and certainly under- punished,actions of those who,despite knowing and recognising the consequences of their despicable,irresponsible and totally selfish criminal actions,continue to degrade the Human Condition ? Can you not see that it is the very people whom you seemingly hold in such high regard,the murderers,drug-pushers,rapists,terrorists,et al,that are THEMSELVES the definitive mark of Barbarism ??
      And your attitude is not helping !

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:41 AM

Hi Falco,

So that's your new name.

Its our resident BNP troll everyone.

As usual peddling lies.

Fortunately the truth is easy to find.

The foreign office know, the victims children know and for those who care, Falco is a Liar.


BBC Report.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:42 AM

And there is no need to use words like "bollocks" either ! This is a serious subject,and does not need profanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:44 AM

If the chinese government has the right to decide when people die then so does any government.

The same rights apply to Mugabe, Pol Pot, Suharto, Idi Amin, etc etc

You can't have it both ways.

As for barbarism - yes I see murder as the definitive Mark of barbarism, and state sponsored murder as the definitive mark of a barbaric state.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:50 AM

Would you care to explain your remark above Lox ?

I have no idea what you are talking about, Clearly on a substance yourself !

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:53 AM

...the Chinese do seem, by comparison with most, somewhat execution-happy...

Not when compared to Texas.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:58 AM

Well, I guess you'll be dumping ,selling,or destroying ANY article,thing,artifice,device or other possession that may have been manufactured in,or had any links to, or association with, CHINA ,then ??
   You obviously feel VERY strongly about this issue,and it is the very least that you could do to reinforce your objections, I would suggest ?
    You will ,of course,furnish us with a comprehensive list of all these offending items, won't you ?
                We await your decision , Lox !

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:07 AM

GregF - that was my comment you just quoted. Note, please, that I went on to say that some MidEastern countries, and would appear comparable.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:09 AM

I don't know why a central part of above post got lost - it read "some MidEastern countries & some states of the USA..."

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:09 AM

Thanks for the BBC link Lox, Right, I understand you now, his daughter and brother said he suffered from Mental illness (neither are doctors) in fact his G.P. NEVER treated him for Mental illness either.

Head back to your bedroom my friend and don't forget to blow the smoke out the window in case your mother smells it.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:13 AM

In China it is normal to have the sentence carried out within an hour of being declared guilty. The executions often take place in groups that number in the dozens to hundreds. Organ harvesting is performed within minutes in austere conditions after the bullet destroys the convict's brain.

TO have time to repeal after conviction in China is something rarely conferred upon Chinese citizens.

On busy days one group is being executed while the next group is being found guilty within earshot of the firing squads.

These Chinese execution factories make Texas Executions look like the paragon of virtue.

I am sure you too can find the videos of Chinese Court / execution factories as I did. Beware. Once you see it you will never forget it.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:17 AM

In fact tho, Donuel, I believe he received a lethal injection which is claimed to be painless — this has I gather replaced shooting in China.

I make no moral point here — I just consider always that accuracy in one's facts and information always enhances one's arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:19 AM

I also have Chinese friends who will corroborate everything seen in the mobile phone videos of these mass execution events in China.

So many of you here are always saying "it ain't so" or "you are always wrong".
It would serve you well to study and research before you make such egocentric conclusions.

You might learn that many executions in China are the same day but not within the hour of sentencing and argue I grossly exaggerated.
Fine, but at least you will have seen and learned for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:29 AM

I did not say you exaggerated, mistook, misled, or anything else, Donuel; so don't be so touchy. Your assertions just did not apply to the particular case under discussion in this thread; nor. according to reports on it, to the current situation in China as distinct from that which obtained in the recent past.

That's all. Cool down & live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:44 AM

Falco, you really aren't very bright are you.

Read this.

Reprieve were his legal representatives.

They claim that they had evidence that he was bipolar and the victim of a con trick.

On the basis of the evidence they showed the foreign office, they got involved.

Reading - and understanding what the words mean - is a very important skill. You should learn how.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:49 AM

not 'you' MthGM, I refer to the "Collective You"
the knee jerks, the deniers, the misinformed, the ignorant who demand to be heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:52 AM

Bubbly rat,

You seem to have forgotten the point now ... a little refresher might help you to remember that this thread is not about bashing China, but about the death penalty in general.

His execution was a crime and no amount of filibustering on your part will change that.

You would still rather attack people who point out that it is a crime or who think that the death of this man was nothing more than an act of barbarism.

Don't reflect, don't support Amnesty International, defend the murderers with cruel insults aimed at the family and divert attention away from the point at every opportunity.

That clearly makes you happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:52 AM

Oh. OK. Thank you for the clarification, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:55 AM

The defense had a cogent and sound case. The accused was afforded the maximum CHinese justice had to offer.

The message sent is, don't be so stupid as to let smugglers extort your cooperation, that being said, Chinese courts are just as harsh as most Asian countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:55 AM

the show 'Locked Up Abroad' shows many such cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:08 AM


In fact tho, Donuel, I believe he received a lethal injection which is claimed to be painless — this has I gather replaced shooting in China.


The news this morning said shooting, the current item on the BBC site says injection.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:14 AM

Twisting words now Lox, Again I will ask you to explain your earlier Bnp remark. Not really much point in presenting your case at this point as the job is done. And it's a job well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 12:24 PM

Can I just make a couple of quick points here to clarify my position? Firstly, bubblyrat, I was born in 1949 and I can remember, as a child being horrified when I was told that someone had been hanged - it brought me no comfort or sense of security. I was especially upset by the Christie/Evans fiasco.

Secondly, I am not sayng that there should be no sanction against crimes such as drug smuggling. What I am saying that I cannot respect (but that does not mean urging people to break) a law that stipulates the death penalty as punishment. It has been proven, time and time again that the death penalty is not a deterrent - it is simply and act of vengeance.

Thanks, Lox, you are right in saying that I would like people to reflect on history - especially the punishments inflicted by totalitarian regimes such as the Nazis and the Soviets, particularly under Stalin. China could be regarded in the same light as these as it is the biggest totalitarian state in the world. Those of us who live in democratic countries may seek to oppose this totalitarianism. If, however, we live in a country that itself executes people, like the USA, we have no moral standpoint on which to criticise. If, for example, this had been a USA citizen, would his governement have stood up for his right to life or shrugged its shoulders and condoned the execution?

Of course I don't have all the answers - but at least I'm prepared to ask the questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 12:47 PM

There's got to be a strong suspicion, in the wake of the Copenhagen fiasco, that China did this cynically and deliberately, just to show that they can, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Remember that their "judicial" system is merely an extension of the state- it has no independemnce whatsoever.

We can in fact do something, but it would be hard and uncomfortable- and that's stop buying stuff from them. It will take at least 20 years of massively expensive goods to re- establish our own industries, and the Chinese would do all they can to maintain their stranglehold.

Poverty and freedom, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 01:37 PM

According to Amnesty International, 22 countries allow the death penalty for drug offenses.
That is their decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 01:55 PM

Strange that a forum based on folkies can include people who claim they could support murder?

Ah well, don't let them worry you. Such people would, when the chips are down, be the last to sit on a capital jury or indeed push the button / trigger / lever whatever.

So, China has shown itself yet again to be the backward disgusting mess it always has been, and no amount of skyscrapers can change that. I find it equally wrong that the Western world has seen it as an economic salvation. Sadly, they are too thick to realise the one way street of commerce they are travelling down.

Before anybody accuses me of generalising a nation, let me spell it out. Chinese society is institutionally racist, the vast majority (and I don't mean the peasants either, I include diplomats and leaders in commerce and industry) see other nations as being lower than them, and view non Chinese as a "thing" to be exploited.

So... why is anybody surprised when the puppy shits on the carpet?

I am opposed to capital punishment in all cases, even when a country's due process has been seen to be done. I find it unfortunate that American legal systems are not all out of the stone age yet, and is a stain on it's otherwise decent people. China however is not yet ready to join civilised society, despite the attempts by some of it's people. (The ones subsequently oppressed by their own government.)

The Chinese government has demanded that the British Government apologise for commenting. if Milliband has any ambition to be seen as a future leader, he has nothing to lose by upsetting them further. They need our business more than we need their cheap gadgets.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 02:06 PM

"According to Amnesty International, 22 countries allow the death penalty for drug offenses.
That is their decision. "

But that is no reason why we should stand by and condone it. Apathy is the greatest ally of oppression.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 02:11 PM

...oh, and, of course, homicidal nutters like Falco.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 02:50 PM

Ahhhhh, let's also keep in mind that, for the most part, drug use in itself is a victimless crime... When we create prohibitionist laws is were we create an entire class of victims...

I don't care if a college professor does a little coke... I don't even care if my doctor does a little coke... Or weed... What it really does come down to is are these people using it responsibly... That means, I don't want the doctor to be doing coke while he's operatin' on me... But the current prohibition laws encourage folks to break laws and indirectly act irresponsible...

And let's get real here on China... China has a long history of folks using opium... Heck, there are even Chineses beds that are called "opium beds" so let's keep some of this in some perspective...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Darowyn
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 03:08 PM

Bobert is right about opium in China. It is a shaming fact that Britain fought a war to enforce the importation of opium to the Chinese.
I would like to believe that we Britons have learned a more humane way of thinking and acting now. I would like to believe that the Chinese will quickly come to value human rights.
I'd like to believe it... but it's not easy, is it?
Cheers
Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 03:11 PM

That's a sore point in China Bobert. The opium came from India, and was imported originally by British merchants. The Chinese tried to stop the trade; the result was a pair of British invasions to enforce "free trade"- the Opium Wars of 1839 and 1860. The outcome was that "treaties" were enforced which allowed foreigners basically to do what the hell they liked with no comeback. You can imagine the hit that national pride took.

You are quite right otherwise; alcohol is as powerful addictively as heroin, but we don't imprison people carrying half a dozen bottles of Beaujolais into Britain. The big difference is that we can buy alcohol in known quality, known strength, and don't have to buy it off some slimebag in a back alley. Oh, and we don't mainline it usually so there's less of an infection problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 03:36 PM

Q

Ted Bundy murdered women at random brutally and then had sex with their bodies.

That was his choice.


As you can see, my observation and yours are both correct.

Neither advances any ethical argument, let alone any argument in favour of state sponsored murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:01 PM

This was the right decision by the Chinese government, why does the British government keep sticking its nose into other counties laws. People like him who commit such crime's broke the law of that country, he knew what he was doing... nothing would have been said by his family etc if he had got away with it... and got his reward...
we need to look at our own problems before getting involved in other people problems, I believe the death sentence should be bought back here for various crimes. Forget this crap that he was off his trolley. He was never treated for mental illness, craft possibly.


Just for a minute forget the "Human rights" issues. What about the rights of those of us who have to put up with the crime caused by drugs & their addictions. If we executed the traffickers & dealers the crime rate would drop out of sight. Saudi executes drug dealers/traffickers who speaks out against them?


Chinese law states death for Drug smuggling so be it. Shame we don't have the same penalty here. We spend too much time poking our noses into how other countries run their lives and trying to convert them into Brits or Yanks. Hence 9/11 etc. When will we learn that they have been running their countries for thousands of years without our intervention.

Drug dealer's have always got some feeble excuse, haven't they. What amazes me is that Gordon Brown tried defending this drug dealer.

One less scum ball with a pulse tonight. Yap all you want, it won't bring him back.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:06 PM

Yeah, state sponsored murder is a a purdy messed up thing, Q-zer... I'd love to see the world's most influential country ban it... That would be a good start toward human rights...

And I think that would also send a message to the future Ted Bundys that life is valued...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:28 PM

The last time the death penalty was applied in Mexico was 1961 and Fox ended it.
The governor of Coahuila has sponsored a bill in the Mexican Congress to re-instate the death penalty for kidnappers. It will be debated in February. The Green Party advocates the death penalty for all homicide cases.
Many Mexicans want the penalty for drug lords.

It is unlikely that Mexico will re-instate the penalty; it is a signator with other nations in the region of a convention forbidding the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:26 PM

"Prime Minister Gordon Brown said he was "appalled" at the execution. However, China warned criticism of the case would harm UK-China relations."
My question then is this:
Does Brown have the balls to take any effective diplomatic action, like re-calling the ambassador and imposing trade penalties or is he just paying lip service? China should never have been given the Olympics until they freed Tibet and apologized to their own people for the Tiananmen Square butchery! Now they have the audacity to warn the world about criticism!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 03:45 AM

"Now they have the audacity to warn the world about criticism!"

China has alwaysa taken this line on the basis that anything that happens within its borders is China's "internal affaits"

The rest of the world has been too quick to accept this argument in the past in the name of convenient diplomacy, with the result that it has gained political legitimacy.

So the irony is that China ends up using the same arguments as Bubblyrat and Falco used earlier, namely: "so what are you going to do about it?" and "Keep your nose out".

As is obvious to the rest of us this is just the rhetoric of a playground bully.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 04:47 AM

NO previous medical record of mental illness FACT.

China has a zero tolerance policy towards drug smugglers, whether Chinese or foreign. It is also extremely sensitive towards any attempts to interfere in what it regards as its internal affairs.

Job well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 05:11 AM

Apart from Falco, who is obviously himself a very sick and disturbed individual, as is anyone who revels in the death of another human being, and a total coward as he hides behind his status as a Guest, the majority of people seem appalled by this action. As Lox suggests, I think thiss is an exercise by China in seeing just how far they can push public opinion. Hopefully the outcry that has occured will show them that right-minded people will not tolerate this sort of obscenity.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 05:14 AM

I've always been opposed to the death penalty, for two simple reasons; one is logical, the other moral.

Logical reason
A death penalty can only be properly imposed and conducted if the judicial system which effects it is absolutely perfect. By this I mean that all aspects of that system are incapable of making a mistake at all times. The legal representatives and the police are scrupulously honest and experts in their profession, as are the forensic experts. The jurors, if such there are, are intelligent and unbiased. The evidence on all sides is presented fully and completely to all concerned. The witnesses are incapable of telling lies and give testimony which is always 100% accurate. In this system, an innocent person could never be convicted.

Think about it. Judicial mistakes happen all the time. You can reverse a prison sentence, pay back a fine, give compensation for judicial wrongs committed. But no-one can bring back a person wrongfully executed. In the last year alone in the UK, people have had their prison sentences for serious crimes quashed - some after spending many, many years in prison - because later evidence (usually DNA) has proved them innocent. Lucky we don't have a death penalty, isn't it?

Think. If just one person is wrongfully executed, then the system is wrong. I also remember the Timothy Evans case - and others like it. No amount of state contrition can remedy those terrible blunders. Put yourself in the place of the wronged person sentenced to die - or imagine yourself as part of his or her family when the state casually tells you that, whoops, they made a mistake.

Moral
Taking a human life is an irrevocable act, whoever does it and in whatever circumstances. If the state allows it, then the state is no better, morally, than the person on whom it's being imposed. We are supposed to be intelligent human beings, are we not? Then we should act like intelligent human beings. This means, for example, not creating legislation in the white heat of moral outrage, because moral outrage does not produce balanced laws. There will always be people who transgress the bounds set by society, and society must show itself superior to the transgressor by dealing with that transgression in a reasoned way.

Well, we've just had another Christmas and this year, as in every year, I read Dickens's "A Christmas Carol" on Christmas Eve. There's a quote that always stays in my mind:

"Will you decide what men shall live, what men shall die? It may be, that in the sigh of Heaven, you are more worthless and less fit to live than millions like this poor man's child. Oh God! to her the Insect on the leaf pronouncing on the too much life among his hungry brothers in the dust!"

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:01 AM

Some of above comments are simply asinine and symptoms of enfeebled minds.

Taking drugs - even in the privacy and supposed sanctity of the home- is a justifiable concern and criminal for reason drug addiction and its consequences is a social problem trespassing beyond the home and into the public. No one can honestly say those who sell or supply drugs should receive a sentence in one of our so called prisons which act like hotels to these scum. They have no place in society, so remove them from it.

China executes drug dealers. Singapore executes drug dealers. Malaysia executes drug dealers. Drug dealers execute other drug dealers.   

If you have no sympathy or understanding for the circumstances of people living in areas in which this type of vermin operate, maybe you'd like some of the drug users and dealers moving in next to you?

They are no better than a rat you catch in a trap.

I repeat, Job well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:10 AM

The death penalty for any crime is an indication that the country concerned has not yet taken a step too far from barbarism - am I right in thinking that the US..... nah - couldn't be!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:17 AM

I think most of the rights and wrongs of both the Chinese system and the death penalty have been discussed but for one - The fact that the death penalty, or any penalty if it comes to that, does not work as a deterant. Point of fact - This case. If the death penalty was such a strong deterant would the perpetrator have committed the crime? As long as the profits outweigh the risks people will take thise risks and no crime is committed with the expectation of being caught.

Now, if severe penalties were introduced for crimes that did very little benefit to the perpetrator that may just work. 15 years for parking on a yellow line? Death for dropping litter? No point in doing them anymore but as long as big bucks can be made someone will risk their, or most likely someone elses, neck.

Answer? I dunno - I'm not clever enough:-( But surely hitting the income source rather than the footsoldiers would be better wouldn't it?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:33 AM

Taking drugs - even in the privacy and supposed sanctity of the home- is a justifiable concern and criminal for reason drug addiction and its consequences is a social problem trespassing beyond the home and into the public. No one can honestly say those who sell or supply drugs should receive a sentence in one of our so called prisons which act like hotels to these scum. They have no place in society, so remove them from it.

Hang the brewers?

Why pick on one class of drugs and not another? It seems that just naming something as a "drug" is enough to stop some people from thinking critically.

Many more people are damaged by alcohol and tobacco than by those substances that attract prison sentences.

So, please explain: if you advocate the death penalty for heroin suppliers, why not for wine merchants? Why can I walk into the shop down the road and buy tobacco without sanction, but risk imprisonment should I buy cannabis?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:44 AM

In the title of this piece, for 'Judicial Murder' read 'legitimate execution'.
Murder is the deliberate and illegal killing of a person. Note that world "illegal".

By the arguments given by theleveller countries should not be able to sanction one of their citizens to take the life of another, for any reason.
If our countries had lived by this in the past, Hitler would have succeeded in gaining domination of Europe, wiping out ethnicities & races that didn't match his view of a master race.
Fortunately there were those prepared to stand against him.
Also, capital punishment may not work as a deterrent to others, but it certainly prevents re-offenders!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 07:10 AM

Even if Akmal Shaikah was not mentally ill, he did not deserve to die.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 08:00 AM

I wouldn't let this Falco character wind you up so much.

I happen to know that Falco has a drug problem and in killing off all drug dealers, Falco's weakness for hard drugs would go away? That's the thought process anyway. But as we know, drugs screw the mind.

Perhaps Falco would like to live in a country where state murder was an option?

Here in The UK, there is not a single political party that is standing to form a government that supports executions. So, as there is nobody to vote for to feed Falco's puerile interest in murder, I can understand a sick mind being as frustrated as the posts above demonstrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 08:49 AM

"The law which attempts a man's life [capital punishment] is impractical, unjust, inadmissible. It has never repressed crime — for a second crime is every day committed at the foot of the scaffold."

Marquis de Sade

Despite the author of those words, never a truer word was spoken. Because the law is not, and never will be, perfect, then doubt always has to be cast on all verdicts where a person has not been caught in the actual act. Even when caught in the act, where someone else could be responsible for planting what becomes evidence, all due process has to be taken. But, as we know, mistakes have been made in the past and innocent people died. With no death penalty mistakes like that can never happen. The UK has certainly suffered from executing innocent people in the past. Legal systems also need enough transparency built in so that the process can be scrutinised from outside and mistakes seen earlier and thereby rectified.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 08:52 AM

Without wishing to deny that many people fall prey to the illegal drug barons of this world, I wonder if we might spare for a moment a thought for the victims of the "legal" drug barons of the world. The tobacco industry has shamelessly been promoting its lethal filth since I have been born - despite many years of irrefutable evidence that the number of its victims dwarfs those of the "illegal" trade. A lot of this advertising is actually legal!
Hoffman La Roche, (among others) has had the full state apparatus of the Swiss state behind it when people have dared to expose its practices. Bearing in mind the number of people addicted to barbiturates, it is a little odd that we hear so much more about heroin and crack addicts when the emotive word "drugs" is bandied around.
Are you sure you want to execute all drug pushers? We are going to have to start a major gallows building project if we want to achieve that objective!
The fact is that a hapless sod, who was probably mentally ill, has been topped to gratify those people, who think that revenge is an effective response to their own moral outrage. I don't actually want to see the executives of Grand Imperial Tobacco and Hoffman La Roche dangling from the gallows. But what hypocrite can argue that they deserve any better than that hapless sod in China?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 09:28 AM

The UK has certainly suffered from executing innocent people in the past.
Unfortunately the UK has also see murderers released to murder again. This gives the death of a true 'innocent', rather than of someone who has had the opportunity to disprove their guilt in court.
I wouldn't like to be the one to say where the balance should lie, but I agree with the death penalty in cases where the case is proved beyond any reasonable doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 09:34 AM

Well, me thinks this Falco person has a few loose marbles 'cause if you follow his logic then why the heck not:

1. Murder kids for eating fast foods... Yep, fast foods can lead to obesity and heart disease and diabetees and they could have a stroke while driving a car and kill other people so, yeah, just set up an execution trailer behind the McDonalds...

2. Murder folks with HIV because they may spread it...

3. Murder all the prostitutes and their "Johns" because society decidea they don't like that kind of stuff...

4. Heck, lets murder folks who wear plaid shirts 'cuase them shirts is ugly...

5. Left handed people gotta go, too, 'cause everyone knows they are commies...

6. Well, sheet fire, let's round up all the Democrats becuase they wan't to raise your taxes and make yer kids marry queers...

7. Well, how'd I forget them gays... Yep, line 'um up, too...

8. Who else don't we like??? Ahhhhh, personally I don't like people who tailgate me when I'm driving... "Move over, Ralph, I got a tailgater... He goes to the fron of the line..."

I mean, let's get real here, Falco... What you are talkin' about is murdering folk who have done nothin' to anyone else in terms of depriving folks of their liberty... Victimless crimes are crimes where a portion of society tries to cram their set of values onto another portion of society... Genocide is what it is called when they use murder to do so... I mean, that is exactly what it is... Pure and simple... Maybe you fell all comfy in a world where people are murdered for not doing one single thing where someone else is deprived of his or her life, liberty of pursuit of happiness but that is Talibanish thinking... Not modern thinking...


B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 09:35 AM

I agree with the death penalty in cases where the case is proved beyond any reasonable doubt.

That's the problem. What may seem "proved beyond any reasonable doubt" at any particular time may not seem so at a later date. Then it's too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 09:37 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 09:38 AM

A bit of a semantic drift occasioned by recent posts —

Has the paradox struck anyone else that, until the mid-60s, murderers in the UK were automatically sentenced to DEATH; since then they have been automatically sentenced to LIFE.

This just strikes me as interesting and suggestive, from both a linguistic and an emotional point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 09:56 AM

I agree Alan, and I would add to that the people who run the betting industry and those who work in it.

Gambling addiction can be the worst addiction of all.
It can ruin the lives of anyone associated with the addicted person.
When gambling addiction is added to alcohol or drug addiction, you are in real nightmare territory.

There are no easy ways to tackle addiction, erradicating it completely will of course be impossible and very expensive, in money and effort.....The majority taxpayers are unwilling to see their hard earned cash "wasted" on addicts.

There are several ways of looking at the problem, the knee jerk "liberal" approach, advanced by Lox and leveller, who maintain human rights come before all else.....even the welfare of addicts.
The present situation regarding the investigation into the causes of addiction and the treatment of addicts is a disgrace and something needs to be done pretty damned quick. It's obvious that the holding stratagy involving the substitution of methadone for heroin is not working...the rising death rates for addicts tells that story and all who survive become more addicted to the methadone than they were to the heroin.

Guest falco's remedy would be effective, but for it to work, it would require the deaths or incarceration of thousands of people who are themselves victims....the street dealers, the "mules" who have run up debts and are forced by violence to carry drugs to pay of the people who make the real money. They are the "footsoldiers" of the drugs trade, most are a mess of psychiatric problems which have led to their becoming addicted in the first place.

Don't get me wrong there may be no other answer than the one falco proposes, for the last ten years I have been involved with addicts and have watched the problem get steadily worse, through bad practice and the lack of will to make the money available to bring in a proper rehabilitation programme, with psychiatric follow-up.
Added to that we need to find out why so many of our youth feel so "disconnected" from life that they resort to the use of drugs.

We have two choices, we do it falco's way or we spend the billions required to operate a realistic rehabilitation scheme....and no "liberal" politician is likely to accept either option.

I am against the death penalty for almost everything, but I would personally kill drug dealers....of the faceless variety. The ones who do it for the money, not the victims whom we see being prosecuted in our local papers.

Once again the "liberal" option of doing sweet fuck all, is no option at all and merely a cop out for cowards...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 11:05 AM

I would make the point that Guest falco is not as you attempt to paint him.

He appears to be intelligent and highly articulate,unlike some who have taken the exclusively "liberal" line here.

Hope he doesn't mind if I link to a thread from last week drugs

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 11:50 AM

Thanks Akenaton. Two years ago I lost my own daughter. A former boyfriend at her University injected her with heroin.

Please note I don't require sympathy. Drugs ruin lives. A very wide circle of lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 11:54 AM

"By the arguments given by theleveller countries should not be able to sanction one of their citizens to take the life of another, for any reason."

It does nothing of the sort. Your logic is grossly flawed there, so the rest of your argument simply doesn't hold water.

"There are several ways of looking at the problem, the knee jerk "liberal" approach, advanced by Lox and leveller,"

Not knee jerk at all - I have been opposed to the death penalty all my life. The crime is irrelevant - it is the punishment we are discussing.

"Once again the "liberal" option of doing sweet fuck all, is no option at all and merely a cop out for cowards"

Who has said that - certainly not me. One again the "reactionaries" are putting words in people's mouths to try to win their argument. Please point out where I said the option was to do nothing or retract your statement. That was itself a cowardly option.

Perhaps it might help if I was to point out to the above that I wholly support the police in their fight against drugs - and all other crime. My elder son is not only a police officer but a member of the armed response unit.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 12:46 PM

OK leveller, on re reading your posts you have an apology regarding your stance on the death penalty.

I was referring mainly to your very abusive posts to guest falco
"Homocidal nutter"..."Obviously a sick and disturbed individual who revels in the death of another human being" etc
Sounds very much like the attitude of a "liberal" to me!

I think an apology to guest falco may be in order.
I think you are probably more of a man than Lox who never has the guts to apologise.

BTW   I certainly dont class my self as reactionary, but are you happy to see the present situation in regard to drug control as adequate?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 01:02 PM

Hi Ake,

So you don't like my stance on drug dealers?

Could you point to anywhere in existence that I have advanced an opinion on how to deal with Drug dealers?

A reference or a link would suffice ...


... oh you can't?

cos I've never given an opinion on the subject of drug dealers on the mudcat?



Oh right then.


So that would mean that you're indulging your weird fantasies again?


Arguing with imaginary points of view and imaginary "liberals" again?



What a sad creep you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 02:29 PM

Ake, thanks for your apology. No, I don't think an apology to Falco is in order and here's why: I can appreciate that people hold different views to mine on the death penalty, regarding it, in their opinion, as a necessary evil. However, Falco actually seems delighted that a human being has been put to death:

"One less scum ball with a pulse tonight. Yap all you want, it won't bring him back."

"Job well done"

That, to my mind, is sick and the product of a disturbed mind. Anyone who celebrates a person's death, no matter how much they think it is the right decision, makes me, quite literally, sick to my stomach. No words can adequately express my disgust.

As to my being a "liberal"; certainly, and proud of itI was brought up to try to see the best in people and have brought up my kids in the same way. Surely, freedom is better than oppression?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 04:13 PM

Thirty-six states of fifty currently have the death penalty. The U. S. government and the U. S. Military also have the death penalty.
It has rid Americans of many heinous felons.
To me, it is the right decision in the case of serious crime. It should cover the drug lords whose actions kill many users.

Falco has expressed his opinion; I join him in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

""I would make the point that Guest falco is not as you attempt to paint him.

He appears to be intelligent and highly articulate,unlike some who have taken the exclusively "liberal" line here.

Hope he doesn't mind if I link to a thread from last week drugs""


If that is what you think Ake, I suggest you look GUEST Falco up on the Facebook site, where you will find that he is not what you supposed at all.

His association with racists and fascists may shed light on his obvious satisfaction over the removal of a man with an Arab or maybe Muslim name.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:29 PM

The problem isn't drug dealers... The problem is prohibition... In prohibiting drug use we are setting the stage for folks to have to cross the line and deal with people who they probably wouldn't really want to know... The major reason for murder in our urban areas is directly related to prohibition... We are turnin' alot of folks who have potential of being productive citizens into criminals and thugs... We are alienating an entire group of people... We are putting folks who just want to score a little weed in contact with people who really don't have those folks best interests at heart... We have all but ruined our inner cities with prohibition...

I mean, lots of things are dangerous to one's health... Football probably cripples more men than any other type of recreation... Why not ban football??? Why not band auto racing??? Boxing??? Hang gliding??? Ultra-lights??? Smoking??? Alcohol??? Why not enforce speed limits???

I mean, societies make choices that are based on emotions and not logic.. The old adage "Live and let live" is all about folks freedom and liberty... Yet we collectively say it's okay for a kid to play football after he has had several concussions but not okay for that kid to smoke a little weed???

Beam me up, Scottie... There just a bunch of emotional moralists down here who ain't Taliban...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:34 PM

leveller, you dodge the issue and hide behind "liberal" rhetoric.
Most people would celebrate the death of a tyrant who was killing millions.
I see the drugs trade as tyrannical, enslaving and killing millions worldwide......people who make their living from such a trade are enablers and part of the tyranny.As such their deaths would be a cause for celebration.
I believe this is also the view of guest falco.

Where I differ from falco, is that I would not be in favour of reinstating the Death Penalty, unless it were to be for warmongering, "liberal", ex Prime Ministers!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:45 PM

"leveller, you dodge the issue and hide behind "liberal" rhetoric."

Ake,

You ignore everything that isn't in accordance with your view and then repeat your "Ake Rhetoric" again and again and again ...


... and again and again ...

Yawn

and again

and again



This time saying "I don't support reintroduction of the death penalty, but here's some reasons why the Chinese were right to use it.

"Where I differ from falco, is that I would not be in favour of reinstating the Death Penalty,"


So thats where you differ from Falco ... but apart from that, the whole BNP thing sounds great to you eh? just as I've been saying all along?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 07:31 PM

Yes, the drug trade is tyrannical... Stop the prohibition and end the tyranny!!!

Beam me up... The Taliban has won!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:51 AM

I read somewhere that in the seventies, the Mafia actually executed people who supported liberalisation of the drugs laws. They certainly understood how their business worked.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 04:05 AM

Don(Wyziwyg)T. Would you care to explain yourself ? I am not a member of Facebook.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Stu
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 04:25 AM

"unless it were to be for warmongering, "liberal", ex Prime Ministers!"

Assuming this is a reference to Tony Blair, he was hardly a liberal but more the political prodigy of that other warmongering ex Prime Minister Thatcher.

'Liberal' isn't the pejorative term here in the UK that it is in the US (even though the neocons are 'liberals' in a sense), so doesn't carry the same weight as a political putdown.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 04:42 AM

"leveller, you dodge the issue and hide behind "liberal" rhetoric."

What issue am I dodging and how am I dodging it? I think I have been very clear about my opposition to the death penalty. That is the issue we're discussing here. That is my stance. WTF are you talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:03 AM

I reckon, for what it's worth... that this thread is a few different threads put together.

Views on capital punishment
Views on drugs
Views on China

Come to think of it, judicial murder is an oxymoron to begin with... Taking a life cannot be justice.

Ok;

Capital punishment? - Something of puerile interest to people with sick minds.

Drugs? - the drug trade and the crimes needed to fund it is far worse than many of the actual drugs sold illegally. In The UK in 2004, (only figures I have to hand,) 68 people died of heroin related issues. That is 68 too many. However, over 28,000 died from tobacco related issues that can be clearly identified and it is estimated three times that figure where tobacco addiction exacerbated the underlying issue.

China? - They hate losing face, so they need reminding they have nothing to be proud of. Even their best meal recipes were developed in San Francisco and London.

Sorted.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:07 AM

"What issue am I dodging and how am I dodging it?"

The real issue behind every conversation topic in the whole world of course ... the threat of the LIBERAL FASCISTS.

... so why won't my cake rise?

Cos the liberal fascists have been weighing it down with all that Human rights nonsense.

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Because the liberal fascists made him do it.


Knock Knock

Who's there

The liberal fascists.



A quick rundown of points of view advanced by Ake so far ...

1. Immigration is to blame for unemployment
2. Homosexuality is an unsafe perverse practice
3. Moslems think they're better than us
4. Tinkers are thieves and drug dealers

And now:

5. The chinese Government are justified in killing an immigrant moslem drug dealer.

Considering that Akes tirade aganst homosexuals came on a post about homosexuals facing the death penalty, I reckon it's fair to infer that Ake is happy to argue points justifying the death penalty against immigrants, homosexuals, moslems and tinkers.

and despises those "who maintain human rights come before all else"

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 11:47 AM

"Most people would celebrate the death of a tyrant who was killing millions.
I see the drugs trade as tyrannical, enslaving and killing millions worldwide......people who make their living from such a trade are enablers and part of the tyranny.As such their deaths would be a cause for celebration."

You keep coming out with these ridiculous sweeping statements for which you have no evidence and which are, to anyone with half a brain, obviously falacious. Try separating facts and opinions and you might gain a little (a very little) more credibility

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Smedley
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:17 PM

Support for, or opposition to, a state-sanctioned death penalty is one of the most telling dividing lines between civilised and uncicilised people.

Reading this thread has underlined that division very strikingly. It is truly chilling to see the frothing relish with which a few posters in here cheerlead for execution.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:57 PM

Behind the wall 2000 miles long
There's a race 600 million
Waiting for the moment when
They blow us all into oblivion

Chorus

CHINA    CHINA   CHINA   CHINA

Recorded by Ogz Wumpies 1965
Written by the Stickyfingers one!!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:00 PM

Check the value of the dollar lately... lol...

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:00 PM

...and 100...

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:40 PM

Steaming Willie...."68 UK heroin related deaths in 2004".... I don't think so!

The actual figure for drug related deaths in Scotland alone in 2004
was 356; this figure has risen steadily until last year it stood at 574........360 heroin/morphine related, 181 methadone related.

I repeat these figures are for Scotland alone,
Drug abuse has become an epidemic in many areas

Sorted??   I don't fuckin' think so!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:57 PM

Is it legal in Scotland, ake???

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:57 PM

UK, 1999
754 heroin-related deaths
87 cocaine-related deaths

2004, Britain
1427 deaths as a result of drugs (UK Office of National Statistics)

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM

Bobert...."Ah loo ye lik' a verra brither"...but you've got this one arse up old pal.....In the small towns on the West coast of Scotland, it's not just a little weed that's goin' down.

We have a very serious heroin/methadone problem here
fatal overdoses occuring regularly....three in the past month
A very large number of registered addicts and at least the same again unregistered.....many young mothers afraid to register in case their children are removed from them.
Babies and young children forced to live in absolute squalor and in many cases used as couriers by their parents.
A totally different scenario from the one which you describe.
I am sure you have never encountered anything like the situation here, if you had, I'm very sure you would be as angry as I...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 04:32 PM

Sorry Bob...cross posted. No, class A and ClassB are illegal.

there is some talk of putting heroin on prescription, but it is unlikely to happen due to the cost involved regarding supervision.

Public opinion is very much against spending money on what is widely perceived as a self inflicted ailment.
Personally I dont think prescription would be the answer, although I agree with you it would help to remove the black market.

There will always be cases who will never register as addicts, like the young mothers that I mentioned above.

We need to understand why many of our young folk choose death...not life, only then can we have any hope of reversing this affliction.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 04:36 PM

Best wishes akenaton for 2010. My hope is health and happiness for you and your family.

Mick H. (Falco)

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 04:58 PM

Ya' see, ake, ol' son... It's this way... Prohibition has a tendency to create problems... I mean, there was a reason for the 21st Ammendment to the US Constitution... That reason is that the US discovered that with prohibition comes more headaches than without it...

Let me give you a little example... We have this island out in the middle ot the Chesepeake Bay called Tangier Isalnd and it is dry, dry, dry... No alcohol at all unless folks sneak it in... The problem arises when the islanders get off the islnad 'cause they get rip-roarin' drunk, fight, get arrested, etc... Tangier is a microcosm of counties or states that think they are doing this morally correct thing by legislating morality... The problem is that it doesn't work... Take Amsterdam... Fewer people percentage-wise smoke pot there than in the United States...

See what I mean??? I'm sure that it is devastating to lose someone or see someone ruin their life form the use of drugs but when you look around the evidence points to an interesting corralation between prohibition and problems....

Hmmmmmmm??? So, yeah, you can point to all those deaths as the evils of the drugs and I point back and say, "Why don't they have this level of problems where things aren't illegal???"

Pragmatism v. Emotionalism...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:31 PM

Has anyone posted the number of deaths due to alcohol ...

Click here

... that's before factoring in deaths due to drunk driving and other drunken misadventure ...

And what about Alcohol fuelled violence - including domestic violence and rape?

Should we put brewers in Jail or execute them?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:35 PM

Thank you falco, the same good wishes to you and yours.

We have more in common than you know..

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:43 PM

More Government Stats.


here

"There were 897 deaths involving heroin or morphine in 2008. This is an 8 per cent rise compared to 2007 and the highest number recorded since 2001. The number of deaths involving methadone also increased from 325 in 2007 to 378 in 2008, a rise of 16 per cent. This is the highest number of deaths involving methadone since 1998, when 398 deaths were recorded. Deaths involving cocaine rose to 235 in 2008, continuing a long-term upward trend since 1993.

Deaths mentioning paracetamol and its compounds increased slightly in 2008 to 260 from the lowest recorded number in 2007 (242 deaths), following a long-term downward trend since 1997. The biggest impact on this decline was from deaths involving co-proxamol (paracetamol and dextropropoxyphene formulation) where the number decreased by one third between 2007 and 2008, from 72 to 48 deaths."


So if the dealers are killers and Tyrants, then so are the pubs, not to mention the Pharma companies selling paracetamol etc.

It should also be noted in the above stats that over 30% of men and 50% of women were deliberately trying to kill themselves by overdosing on whatever they could get.


Lets see if the King of double standards believes that people who sell dangerous chemicals should all be prosecuted or not ...

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: fumblefingers
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:47 PM

Bobert: "We allow people in Texas to be rounded up, have confessions beat out of them, appoint dumb attorneys who sleep in court while supposedly defending them and then, ahhhhhh, murder them..."

Would you tell me if you are referring to a specific case, or Texas justice in general? Names and dates if you please.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:57 PM

Pragmatism v Emotionalism

From what I know of you Bobert, I'm pretty certain that you would be one of the most emotional when faced with some of the things I have witnessed over the past few years.

Heroin addiction is not like cannabis smoking....it is not "recreational" it becomes a nessecity to maintain a minimal standard of life.
It can lead to the depths of degradation and is gnawing at the fabric of society in this part of Scotland.

If we are unwilling to expend the huge amount of money and medical expertise required to defeat drug addiction, then we have no option but to takle the problem by punishing those who are themselves it's victims.

One thing is certain, we must not content ourselves by protecting the civil rights of addicts while they die in ever increasing numbers. I think I may have said that before in another context!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:02 PM

Well, fumbler, all ya' gotta do is google up "Capital Punishment, Texas" and read until yer heart's delight... There's enough stuff there to keep you busy until next New Years eve...

Yeah, I've read about alot of the cases... I once had a file on about 20 of them... Then one day I was going thru some files and thought to myself "Self, every time you go thru that file you are depressed and pissed off for several days" so I threw it out...

Like I said, plenty of stuff out there on Texas and capital punishment... Enjoy... BTW, I hope you don't like Bush because if you do then that's gonna come to an end as you find out just how many people were put to death under him and how he couldn't have cared less...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:13 PM

""Don(Wyziwyg)T. Would you care to explain yourself ? I am not a member of Facebook.""


No, of course you aren't.....not much!.

It is of course a total co-incidence that the last time I was being harrassed and targetted by infantile supporters of nasty Nick, I had a friend request from you which I had to block and report as abusive, since it pointed to a profile using my photo and representing me as a BNP supporter.

Checking back today, I find another fake profile purporting to be me, which has, in its photo album, my Facebook profile photo, photoshopped to replace "Hope not Hate" and "Folk against Fascism" Logos with BNP crap. It also has a profile message which is word for word your sick, gloating, satisfaction at the result.

While I agree with the notion that anyone who commits a crime is rightly subject to punishment according to the laws of the country where the crime was committed, and for that reason there is no mileage in slagging off the Chinese, I nevertheless deplore your sick minded reaction.

Pointless to discuss anything with you, but I did want other members to know the kind of human (and I use the word in its loosest sense) being they are dealing with, behind that Guest Falco tag.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: fumblefingers
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:14 PM

Bobert - You are apparently ignorant of Texas law and the Governor's limitations where clemency is concerned. Since you're the one making the accusations, I have no obligation to Google anything to prop up your argument--if that's what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

The laws in China are harsh and the death penalty was issued in this case and carried out. Though sometimes commuted for financial crimes they are rarely commuted for drug smuggling, rape and murder.

After living 10 years in China I would be very wary about breaking their laws. The legal system is quite at odds with what we are used to in the west. Legal representatives have a hard time gaining access to clients and getting sight of evidence. Even in civil cases I have seen cases in the press where the lawyers are threatened with breaching state secrets when presenting evidence at trials.

As of now we have little idea of what was stated in court in this case. The only reports were from state controlled media which would be skewed to say what they want them to say.

The laws are harsh but in a country of 1.5 billion people the government in Beijing is of the view that in order to rule they have to issue harsh punishments and they do.

While living in Shanghai I met the son of a convicted smuggler who was over visiting his father in Qing Pu prison just outside Shanghai. His crime was to be caught with cannabis and he received a 15 year sentence with no chance of remission or repatriation. That is the Chinese way.

When you next visit Singapore, Thailand or Malaysia remember they too carry out capital punishments in the case of drugs smuggling.

Gordon Brown made his comments, but it is at odds that he commented on this mans mental state and asked for clemency but failed to comment or do anything in the case of John McKinnon the UFO obsessed man who is to be handed over to the US despite there being a clear case of mental illness. Perhaps he did not want to upset BO.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:24 PM

Ake,

There is nothing you can tell me about heroin addiction that I don't allready know about...

I worked at Rubicon North, a halfway house for drug addicts in Richmond, Va., for close to 4 years... Work???... Okay, I all but lived there... I could write a book on the experiences I gained in those 4 years... Believe me, I know more than you could ever imagine about the pains of addiction... I took pictures of everyone that came thru that facility and have a scrap book of hundreds of people I worked with... I know the ones that died... I know the ones that were killed... I know the ones that went away for long sentences... One of my closest friends, Jim "Sugar Bear" Coleman, and who also was one of my "clients" (residents) is doing life... James??? Dead The Lip... Dead... Greasy Easley???... Dead... Benji???... Dead...

I mean, I could go one and on...

I don't come to my opinions on this subject lightly... I come with a heavy heart... No, it ain't easy to see folks you care about die, get messed up, go off to prison... But we are all guilty here... We need to get the heck outta legislating morality when the only victim is the user... It ain't helpin'... Every danged study says so... Yet we still drag out the war stories and we stil continue doing the wrong things in the face of what is the right thing...

If you have any other questions regarding my 4 years at Rubicon, including the names of other folks who died, or the names of folks who will tell ya that, "Yeah, the skinny white guy did the time there" then PM me... Be glad (no, not glad) to share those with you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:27 PM

Fumbler,

You are a troll...

How much time did you spend on Google??? I'll tell you how much time... Not one friggin' minute... All, you did was get on yer little hobby horse and balst away with your proclamations...

Now either go do the research 'er I'll ignore you like you were a radiation pit...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:51 PM

Bobert...I don't think there's a straighter guy on Mudcat than yourself...I don't need no "verification".

I didn't mean to imply that you were not clued up on "H"addiction, but looking back at what I've written, thats what it looks like....sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:00 PM

Well, Ake... The cost of drug rehab is nothin' compared to the the alternative which is crime, lawyers, court time and then incarceration... Incarceration, BTW robs the family of a bread winner... Yeah, so does addiction but if the addict is probated to a place like Rubicon and lets say that he or she is one of the 25% who stay clean for 2 years then there is alot more benefit (on all levels) than going the criminal route...

That's what I mean by pragnatism v. emotionalism... Yeah, I can get emotionally protective of my pragamtic positions (lol)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 08:39 PM

Mr.Don(Wyziwyg)T. I'm sorry, I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have no conflicts or problems with you.

Irrespective of your opinion on those who sell or supply drugs. it appears you have either confused me with someone else or you are deliberately attempting to create a distortion to discredit me. If the latter is the case, that is despicable.

One can disapprove of behaviour and express views on those engaging in it. I make no excuse I hate drug supplying killers.

I oppose hate of a nation, race or creed. So tell me how or why do you link me to a party such as the Bnp. To make such a slur against me is simply pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:08 PM

Alcoholism is a more destructive force in Scotland than Heroin.

Just one of many many sources.

"One thing is certain, we must not content ourselves by protecting the civil rights of addicts while they die in ever increasing numbers. I think I may have said that before in another context!"

Ake has no idea what "civil rights" means.


He thinks that protecting peoples civil rights means letting them die.


He thinks that taking peoples civil rights away means caring for them.


Its a bit like saying that 1 + 1 = Thursday


Heroin addicts need to be treated and rehabilitated.


There is NO connection between this and their civil rights.




In fact, it is because we value the rights of every human being equally that we show concern for addicts.


However, we digress (again) as this still has no bearing on whether or not Junkies and Dealers should be murdered.


"Heroin addiction is not like cannabis smoking....it is not "recreational" it becomes a nessecity to maintain a minimal standard of life.
It can lead to the depths of degradation and is gnawing at the fabric of society in this part of Scotland."


Gosh - with a synopsis like that I don't think Bobert needed to bother with any credentials.

Heroin is an addiction.

It does not maintain any standard of life.

It creates a physical dependency.

This dependancy is a chemical one.

Heroin, alcohol, amphetamine and cocaine are examples of chemically addictive drugs.

Addiction is a diagnosable and treatable mental illness.


Gambling and sex are not addictions, they are compulsions.

It is important to be clear about what words actually mean.


But while we are talking about how addiictions ruin lives, let us be clear that Alcohol is addictive and it kills and it destroys lives, families and whole communities in ways that heroin only imitates.


So - do we jail pub and off licence owners or do we execute them?


This question is just too hard for Ake to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 06:02 AM

Well put, Lox. It's reassuring to know that, unless the unbelievable happens and we get a BNP government, the death penalty will never be reinstated in this country. What we of a liberal disposition, who find this legalised slaughter utterly disgusting, need to do is back up those organisations that are fighting to abolish it in the barbaric countries where it still exists. Probably the hardest addiction to overcomme is the addiction of goverments to killing people.

Maybe that would be a good new year resolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:34 AM

Drug abuse destroys lives, FACT. It wrecks families and devastates communities, FACT. The human cost has been enormous, FACT. The financial consequences incalculable, FACT. The drain on our social services, justice system and NHS is immense, FACT.

So called 'Human rights' legislation has effectively nullified the British criminal Justice system. It is yet another great British institution that has been devastated by liberal policy and 'EU' meddling.

Human rights are being used as a smoke screen by those who see it as means of avoiding the consequence of their actions. It is about time people stood up to this misuse of this right, that has been tolerated for too long.


One of the most frustrating things is when a drug dealer who have shown not one ounce of compassion for their fellow human beings start trying to have the shield of human rights drawn around them. They use this legislation as protection. Have you any idea how offensive this is to the family of a victim ? No I doubt you would.

The two degenerates above are quick to talk about the human rights of drug smugglers, but are happy to take away the human rights of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:58 AM

Don't you just love the rabid rantings of a reactionary - especially when they are so ineffectual! I can practically see Falco foaming at the mouth.

The alternative to individual human rights, as anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows, is totalitarianism. The utter unthinking drivel that Falco spouts shows the sort of state he would prefer. Unfortunately for you, Falco, you'd be unlikely to get the job of Fuhrer, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 08:31 AM

Drug abuse and prohibition go hand in hand... That is what studies show... That is the reality... And that is why we are all quilty of promoting drug abuse...

And, for the record, the Earth is not flat...

(Shockin', Boberdz, just shocking!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 10:21 AM

BTW, Ake, ol' son... A good read is Harry G. Levine and Craig Reinanman's "Alcohol prohibition and drug prohibition. Lessons from alcohol policy for drug policy" (2004, Amsterdam, CEDRO) which really delves into the subject...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 12:18 PM

Quite the opposite, Shaikah is cold tonight without a pulse. How could I possibly be upset, In fact the more I think about it, I am ecstatic !

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Smedley
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 12:21 PM

Falco, congratulations. The year is not yet a day old and you have already secured the Most Loathsome Scrote of 2010 award. I hope you keep it in a prominent place.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 12:36 PM

What is interesting is that Falco not only espouses the values of the totalitarian state but has now slipped so easily into its terminology where "degenerate" is the word used most frequently used to describe anyone who dissents from the official line. Methinks Mr Falco has inadvertently disclosed his true colours.

"Most Loathsome Scrote of 2010 award" LOL! I think the statuette should depict an empty scrotum sac - that would be a true depiction of Mr Falco in so many ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Smedley
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM

Yes, Leveller, my eyes 'pricked up' when I saw the term 'degenerate' - you have to be *very* deeply immersed in far-right idiocy before that term tumbles out so easily.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 01:48 PM

What has always puzzled me about the, so-called, 'western liberal democracies', who have abolished the death penalty, is that they are quite happy to manufacture and export the the most horrendous weapons of destruction such as land mines, phosphorus bombs, grenades, automatic firearms of various types, helicopter gunships, fighter-bombers etc., etc., which are manufactured for just one purpose: to kill people - often poor, weak and defenceless people, and to send young men to suffer horrible deaths in foreign wars. They also appear to be happy to degrade and over-exploit the biosphere, destroy the farms and farming methods of the world's poor people through the imposition of profitable (for the few) 'cash crops' and turn a blind eye to the obvious problems caused by over-population. All of which promise to lead, in the not too distant future, to the painful and protracted deaths of BILLIONS. This makes the death of some pathetic drug smuggler pale into insignificance. To my mind the main problem with the human race is that it has absolutely no sense of proportion!!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 03:20 PM

Well said Shim!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM

I will second that.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 04:09 PM

Shim.

I agree that those things happen and that they are horrific and inexcusable.

Does the fact that these things happen make the muder of Shaikh right?

No.

They are all wrong.

There are many threads on those subjects.

This thread is about a specific execution.

In your opinion, was that execution justified or not?

You don't seem to have expressed a view either way.


I ask because Ake and Falco seem to think that you believe it was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:13 PM

Lox,

That's a good question. If I answer it though I'm damned in your eyes and damned in the eyes of others - I'm not actually prepared to be judged over this - so I'll keep my specific opinions on this particular case to myself. On balance though I am prepared to say that I would prefer to live in a world in which no-one is executed and it is not necessary to execute anyone.

But we don't live in such a world - we live in one in which bad, selfish, greedy people are a threat to us all (and being non-religious I'm not convinced that everyone is redeemable). Furthermore we also seem to live in a world in which monstrous crimes are excused and petty ones are punished; it's certainly not a just world. I also suspect that this taboo against executing people in the west certainly has a moral and ethical basis but, in addition, its also got something to do with the exercise of power. Our rulers once gave themselves the power of life and death over everyone - now they've decided just to kill foreigners. Mind you I reckon that if someone was seen to represent any sort of serious threat to their power, they'd probably wind up dead.

Religious people insist that all human life is sacred and, again on balance, this is a good thing and keeps the majority of us safe most of the time. But in the grand scheme of things we have to bear in mind that we are animals and other animal species die every day and the Universe probably doesn't even notice. If the biosphere becomes sufficiently degraded and the population becomes too great vast numbers of humans will die, whether their lives are 'sacred' or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:24 PM

Are you by any chance a mind reader Shim?
Another fine post...much too considered and thoughtful to be of much use to those who would judge you.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:33 PM

Well, what would happen to the military/indusrial complex if it couldn't sell it's wares??? I mean, wouldn't that be bad fir the economy, 'er somethin'???

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 08:29 PM

Shim,


You've referred to religious opposition to the death penalty.

And you've given a pretty wide overview of the ethical difficulties in determining where a course of action is or isn't justified.

The problem with your argument as I see it is that if we see the human race as being a mere blip on the fabric of spacetime and derive a fatalistic approach to ethics from such a view, then we have to apply that approach across the board.

In which case we become a jumped up self important species by merit of believing that our existence is of any meaningful significance at all.

Applying such an approach would mean having to say that anything goes, so murderers, dealers, tyrants, child abusers etc would be lumped into the same boat as the rest of us in a free for all of ethics free survival.

Fair enough. This view is easily supported and understood.


However, for some reason, most human beings, religious or otherwise, have a sense of ethics and of what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable behaviour.

Humans have, over thousands of years, developed ideas around which the patterns of our lives now revolve.

Examples of these ideas are: money (this is nothing more than an abstract concept that only exists because we agree it does), property, freedom, liberty, equality, democracy etc etc etc.

Our whle lives are built on ideas and nothing more.

Slowly we have evolved to seek out a deeper and deeper understanding of our existence, and somewhere along the way we have, pretty much universally, developed an idea of the importance of valuing human life and human consciousness.

Somewhere along the way we have also developed ideas around consistency and double standards.

As a species we have found that life can be an infinitely more qualitative experience when we cooperate with each other.

Hence, the creation of domestic laws on one hand and international conventions on the other.

We are very sophisticated animals.

Should we as a species condone the killing of other humans or not.

If we do condone it then where do we draw the line and why?


The death penalty is meant to serve as a deterrent and to punish criminals permanently and finally.

It is meant to protect ordinary innocent people from the predations of those who would otherwise destroy them.


In fact, it does not act as an effective deterrent and sometimes innocent ordinary people lose their lives as a result of judicial errors.

Sometimes, in some countries, people lose their lives for very spurious 'crimes'.


So what are we to do? Carry on evolving or just say "fuck it - it makes no difference in thescheme of things" and do exactly what we like without a conscience.

Why do we have a conscience?

What purpose does it serve?

And why (this is more to the thread at large) should people get so upset and aggressive when Leveller begins a thread suggesting that we reflect for a moment on the execution of Akhmal Shaikh?


Finally, (pay careful attention to the wording) the only reason that this universe is important to you is that you are here to experience it.

Our whole existence is subjective no matter how we look at it.

Even when we accuse humanity of being jumped up and self aggrandizing we are subjective.

So in claiming to speak for the rest of the universe we stand guilty of greater arrogance.

We would be more honest speaking for ourselves.


So what do we think and what do we want?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:02 AM

Lox,

You raise lots of interesting questions. I confess to being a bit overwhelmed - and don't really know where to start!

The dilemma that I find myself in, when thinking about the death penalty, revolves around such things as:

- Physical revulsion at what is actually involved in putting someone to death.

- A persistent feeling that, for certain monstrous crimes (e.g. genocide), the death penalty may actually be justified.

- Anger at various justice systems which, far too often, tend to punish the innocent while trying too hard to show mercy to the guilty.

- Vague annoyance at the influential western liberal mindset which has a tendency to blame an individual's crimes on 'Society' thus depriving the individual of responsibility for his/her crimes.

- Failure to recognise that there are 'wolves out there' who are a danger to us all and that we have no choice but to defend ourselves against them. At the end of the day 'nature is red-in-tooth-and-claw' and we should acknowledge this fact and try to come to terms with it - rather than attempt to deny it.

- Anger at the hypocrisy of those in power who, on the one hand, tell us that the death penalty is wrong, whilst, at the same time, dealing out death and destruction in other parts of the world when it suits their purposes to do so.

And having written those things I realise that I am talking about my emotional responses to them ('revulsion', 'anger' etc.). But, at the end of the day, reactions to crime and injustice inevitably involve emotion. Perhaps the (hypocritical) authorities, in attempting to be 'objective' and 'unemotional' can sometimes end up doing more harm than good(?)

Going back to the unfortunate individual, recently executed in China, I think that in a 'just' world he should have been deported back to Britain and served out a sentence in a British prison. But this person failed to recognise the risks that he was running by dealing in drugs in China - he failed to recognise or acknowledge that in some parts of the world 'nature' is still very much 'red-in-tooth-and-claw'!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:34 AM

China requires that guests who arrive from a another country must respect their traditions, their symbols, their culture and most of all their laws. Shaikh didn't, so he was dealt with. Now he's boxed up and ready for dispatch.I do hope the British taxpayer doesn't have to pay for the return of the stiff. End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:44 AM

Most countries have a significant number of mentally ill and intellectually disabled people in prison. That's a crime and a tragedy. I don't think we're much further advanced than China and the US, we still imprison them but just don't execute them.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 07:30 AM

"And having written those things I realise that I am talking about my emotional responses to them ('revulsion', 'anger' etc.). But, at the end of the day, reactions to crime and injustice inevitably involve emotion. Perhaps the (hypocritical) authorities, in attempting to be 'objective' and 'unemotional' can sometimes end up doing more harm than good(?)"

I too have emotional responses to crimes.

Baby P's torture and murder would be a classic example.

I looked at the photo's, and read about about what had happened and the sheer cruelty of the adults who inflicted the injuries he died from.

My first feeling was a paternal instinct to pick that little boy up and hold him safely out of reach of those monsters.

Of course that simply wasn't an option.

My second emotion was utter hatred for the adults involved.

I felt that if I ever saw these people out in public I would be unlikely to restrain myself from inflicting the worst torture imaginable on them.

I felt crimson in tooth and claw.

But in reality, I am glad that I never have seen them and that they have gone to prison for their crimes.

I believe their actions to have been those of savages.

In taking that line I make a distinction between myself and a savage.

To be consistent I must define what the differences are between savages and non-savages.

In my mind a non-savage is able to restrain themselves from indulging their lust for blood.

A non-savage considers more sophisticated alternatives.

They work out what they wish to achieve, why they wish to achieve it and how they will go about achieving it.

Baby P's killers should be seperated from society and kept away from kids for their whole lives as they are a danger.

That is something everyone agrees on, death or no death.

By not killing them, we define our society as being better than that.

We encourage our society to see that killing is never justified.


A parallel worth considering is that of whether to arm the police.

In the UK, we don't arm the police and the number of gun crimes is very low.

The flow of guns is well controlled and there are less shoot outs on our streets with the result that less innocent bystanders get caught in the crossfire.

Guns are not a significant part of our society when you compare us to the USA, south africa or other countries where there is an ethos of "each man may defend himself".

I believe that the same principle applies in the case of the death penalty.

If the government sanctions a view that killing is justified retribution, then citizens will hold the same view.


Besides, I want the killers of Baby P to stay alive so that they can reflect everyday for the rest of their lives just how much they are hated and reviled and so they have nightmares everynight about the crimes they have committed.


I want them to die old and heartbroken in prison, wishing they had behaved differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 08:15 AM

"I want them to die old and heartbroken in prison, wishing they had behaved differently."

Lox,

I take this to mean that you want them to experience retribution and to show remorse?

I can't actually remember the sentences that the Baby P killers received but other child murderers have received 'limited' sentences and have been protected from the 'mob' after their release.

In addition there are people in our midst (clinical psycopaths) who are incapable of experiencing pity or showing remorse - what do we do about them?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 08:18 AM

Shimrod, I think the answer to your question is a fairly simple one which would, of course, go totally over the heads of those like Falco and Co who espouse totalitarian values.

Firstly, it is not just the death of one person we are talking about but the whole priciple of having a death penalty, which accounts for the deaths of many thousands of people each year. To edit my previous quote from Tordorv: "we may therefore question whether states that continue to make wide use of the death penalty can really be considered part of the democratic world."

Secondly, and here again, this is something that Falco is totally against, we are talking about basic human rights that form the basis of a civilised society and of democrarcy as enshrined in so many priciples from Thomas Paine through to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Totalitarianism relies on the subjugation of individual human rights, as anyone who has studied the history of the 20th century will know. One of the basic human rights is to justice - a fair trial and not to be subjected to inhumane punishment. If we violate the human rights of an invididual, we are setting a precedent to violating the human rights of groups and then the rights of the entire populace. For an excellent summary of human rights today, you may like to read A C Grayling's Liberty in the Age of Terror. Falco, of course, will continue to rely on his own ignorance and stupidity.

I agree that there are many problems in the world which need to be addressed but that doesn't mean we should ignore tha basic ones on which a civilised and democratic society is based.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 09:15 AM

Leveller,

"this is something that Falco is totally against, we are talking about basic human rights that form the basis of a civilised society and of democrarcy"

Actually it's Ake who has repeatedly shown scorn towards the "liberal" idea that human rights come first.

Shim,

I don't expect remorse, I do agree with someone having their freedom to live in normal society removed, and to make it clear to them that the reason they are in prison is because of their actions.

In the case of those who feel emotion, they may reflect on their crime and lie awake at night horified by their own evil.

In the case of those who have no emotional capacity, it is enough that they spend their lives associating their actions with their imprisonment and knowing that they are responsible for their own lack of freedom.

Myra Hindley for example was reported in the last few years of her life as having requested that she live out her remaining short time in freedom, having rehabilitated herself and learned her lesson.

When she was imprisoned, she was remorseless.

She spent her life in prison reflecting and spent her last days craving a day of freedom.

This was denied.

Eventually, she died grieving for the lives she destroyed - including her own.

If she had been hanged, she would have died with no care for her own life, let alone those of the children she and Ian Brady murdered.

I feel justice was better served in her case by a life sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 10:24 AM

Ha Ha...The Hindley case was a perfect example of "liberal" hypocrisy, she never actually murdered anyone and was very obviously under the influence of evil personified by Brady.

Her sentence was continually extended, not for additional punishment, but simply because successive "liberal" home secretaries were to cowardly to release her.

"Liberal" rights are conditional on many things....in this case it was the politicians sense of self preservation.

What a bunch of wriggling arseholes you are......leave Shirod alone, he's worth twenty of you lot.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Smedley
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 10:58 AM

Hindley was also a victim of misogyny - in the popular imagination her crimes outdid Brady's because she was a woman and thus '''''even worse'''' than him. And it has usually been other women I have heard advancing that view.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 11:09 AM

"What a bunch of wriggling arseholes you are......leave Shirod alone, he's worth twenty of you lot.....Ake"

You don't really need to defend me, Ake, I'm perfectly capable of defending myself, but thanks anyway! Actually, I think that, in between the traditional 'hang 'em and flog 'em' merchants and the 'knee-jerk' liberals, there's some good, thought-provoking stuff on here (the contributions from Lox and theleveller for example) which I'm still trying to digest and to compare and contrast with my own thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 11:50 AM

Those who have commented on Myra Hindley, have the Hindley/Brady relationship wrong. He was merely a rather pathetic fantasist until she came into his life: he shared his fantasies with his new mistress, Hindley — whereupon she persuaded him that fantasies were no use if not enacted, persuaded him to leave it to her to lure the children back to where he was, and then helped him render them as helpless as need be for him to do the actual killing, which she shamed him into doing to avoid losing face in her eyes. So tho it is technically true to say that he physically committed all the actual murders, he would neither have attempted it other than in fantasy without her persuasion [which took the form of a mixture of scorn & encouragement], nor have had the children physically present for the purpose. The Home Secretaries who forbade her release knew what they were about. She was the trigger for the commission of the murders; he was merely her instrument.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:32 PM

People who attack their own society should be made to pay a price. The overriding consideration of a government should be to protect the vast majority of the population who prefer to live by rules which insured that what ever else might go wrong in your life, crime was not on the list. It is too easy these days to blame someone of something for how your life has turned out.

And they also have the old "Mental health" card to play. The person here in question was never treated for a mental health problem. He saw his G.P. several times since returning to the UK from Poland and America, but never once for a mental health related problem. This attempted smoke screen was thought up by his family, none of which are health professionals. So please stop referring to him as suffering from mental illness, unless you can produce proof ?

Now I see it is possible for an inmate to have a family life at Her Majesties pleasure. A prisoner rights organisation has called for more Conjugal rights for prisoners. "Allowing prisoners access to a partner could drastically reduce their tensions". Great, not only do they enjoy a hotel lifestyle, we have to allow them a weekly rattle at some tart as well.

We have to break this ultimately destructive choice of life style which fast becoming a reasonable option for many. Only those who respect the rule of law should be credited with a full set of human rights.

If a drug dealer murders your child, I know your opinion will alter.I hope to God it's something you never have to experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 02:58 PM

For the record folks, I have had personal experience of the damage drugs do.

My ex partner fell victim to addiction and her health and behaviour deteriorated to such a level that she was no longer allowed to have my daughter to stay overnight.

I then had to move town to protect myself and my daughter from her dealers who thought my daughter was their business.

My home address has been kept confidential by the court since then.

I fully understand the risks, the fear and the anger and know exactly what damage is done by drugs to the addict and to their environment.


None of this has any bearing on whether or not a mentally ill man should have been made to die.


If Myra Hindley isn't a good enough example for you, then lets talk about Ian Huntley instead.

Since he was put in prison he has tried to commit suicide, which shows that the pressure has well and truly got to him.

The horror of his crimes has got to him.

The fear of how he is seen has got to him.

Good.

If he was dead he would know none of this.



Ake,

To put it very simply, you are way out of your depth.

Your way of thinking is so inflexible, and you are so incapable of learning and evolving, hindered in my view by your own fear and loathing of "others", that openly engaging in discussion of the type exhibited in this thread by everyone apart from you and Falco is simply beyond your imagination.


I note from your last 3 posts that you have given up trying to compete, but instead have resorted to smarmy sycophancy with whoever you think you can enlist as an ally in your fight against the "liberal fascists" and their repression of your freedom of speech.


Hating people will only give you a headache.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:11 PM

Sorry to hear of your experience Lox. I think your remarks about akenaton are unfair. He has expressed an opinon, one I share.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:49 PM

Unfair?

Is Falco suggesting I be compassionate?

Now I have read everything!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 04:24 PM

Are you the only one here allowed a viewpoint Lox ?????

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:31 PM

You'd have to ask a moderator Falco.

I suspect you'll find that no-one is censored.