Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 01:01 PM

"By hook or by crook" actually originated in villagers' rights to collect wood. They could take from the woods anything which they could collect from the ground or pull down "by hook or by crook" from standing trees - this was usually dead wood.
Twister's banjo would be highly fashionable in 1895, and was starting to trickle down to the poor end of the populace by then. My Grandpa played a tenor banjo about ten years later.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 12:30 PM

I hope that wasn't a load of old billhooks....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 06:16 AM

I'm deeply ashamed of my 'billhook' atrocity in this miraculously resurrected thread - I should have known the difference, especially as my forebears wielded scythes, sickles and no doubt billhooks for generations, in between quaffing ale and, I'm sure, composing all manner of traditional songs as a result.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 12:49 PM

A sickle is a curved, hand-held agricultural tool typically used for harvesting cereal crops or cutting grass for hay. The inside of the curve is the cutting edge, and is serrated.

The farm-hand swings the blade against the base of the crop, cutting through the stems with a sawing action.

The sickle was superseded in the nineteenth century by the scythe which was more comfortable and by mechanised combine-harvesters and tractor machinery.

Pitt Rivers Museum, Oxford

The smooth-edged hook succeeded the serrated sickle for reaping corn in many places about 1860-1870. Fagging tools have sharp blades and are heavier and wider than sickles and used with a different action.

Instead of grasping the corn, the reaper held back the stalks or drew them towards him with a short crook called a fagging stick and slashed through the straw rather than sawing it as with a sickle.

A larger quantity of corn was cut at one swing, though time was taken up with sharpening the blade. The hooks are still used today for trimming hedges and cutting crops close to hedges or walls that cannot be reached by machine.

According to the Museum of English Rural Life at Reading

This may be the origin of the phrase, 'By hook or by crook.'

Billhooks - these were and still are mainly used for pruning and lopping branches and other vegetation and are particularly useful for hedging. The design, size and shape vary widely depending on what they're going to be used for, as well as local variations.

Finch Foundry, Sticklepath

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: GUEST,The Town Piper
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 11:21 AM

Wasn't Twister's banjo a bit modern for 1895?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:34 AM

In that case, they are doing pretty well - think of the expense and forward planning necessary to ensure a field of long straw wheat! Without tractor tracks up it. Unless they could find some from the Victorian farm project, or the National Trust who presumably have some about for thatching.

Penny

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 04:16 AM

The lovely Julia Sarwalha has just been on TV (not, I think, necessarily in response to this thread) saying that the series is made with a really small budget, so perhaps that explains some of the mistakes. Perhaps not.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:04 PM

and what were the men in the second row with the billhooks doing?

I think we should be told.

(George. Don't do that!)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:01 PM

Modern short-stalked straw at the harvest - and what were the men in the second row with the billhooks doing?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:20 AM

Alan Day, if we're discussing BBC accuracy then Dimbleby's 7 Ages of Britain is a good place to start. Who ever heard of Tudor Britain? We had Tudor England and Stewart Scotland. I enjoyed the program but it would have been more ejoyable if he had just called it the 7 Ages of England as, so far, it has been completely Anglo centric. As for Lark Rise, I cannot watch it anymore without laughing after Victoria Wood's spoof take on it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:09 AM

Don't mention the whistle....

Baz

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:03 AM

It did occur to me while watching Cranford that there was probably something wrong with the train trsck or the engine, and that somewhere someone was probably complaining about that. And that would be something that nothing could be done about it.

Penny

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:38 AM

PennyS: there is much difference between using deliberate anachronisms for comic or satirical or dramatic or emphatic effect, and just getting things irritatingly wrong thru lack of enough trouble and research. It is rarely hard to spot the difference between these.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:19 AM

I am at last catching up on my recordings, and heard a musical duo playing in Cranford, outside the shop where there was a display about the railway. A very twiddly version of Cosher Bailey.

Lark Rise actually made a point that the folk songs of Flora's childhood had been lost, so I suppose the best people could do was find something as near as possible. For that and Cranford.

I comer to the conclusion that I have a very odd attitude to anachronism. I have, in fact, used it quite deliberately in school drama in the past, having fairies in about 1066 (Edric Wilde's story) dancing to Scott Joplin. But some things rankle. I was alerted to churchy things ages ago by a friend who pointed out that a version of Jane Eyre had church altar furniture that simply wouldn't have been used at the time. It's to do with ideas, and how people thought. I knew people who were alive when Lark Rise was set. They didn't think like that.

But I also object to Werther's Originals claiming that English grandads would have had their product as children. A German sweet, during rationing. I daresay they were a bit thin on the ground in their home country at the time. And Trebor Bassett tried it with claiming that a fruit sweet introduced in the last couple of decades had been enjoyed in the 50s at Saturday Matinees.

Penny

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:28 AM

Lizzie do you watch David Dimbleby after Lark Rise, a very nice interesting programme and very nicely presented.
Film awards this weekend, that's going to spoil Sunday viewing
Al

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:07 AM

Just in interests of ACCURACY ["MtheGM's pedantry is legendary" said a person on another forum site I frequent ~ my head is still too big to get thru the door]: I have just had another look at the label in my wax jacket, & I had misremembered. It is not a Barbour, but a Burberry. But point remains; & it's still a beautiful green and it hasn't a hood. So God bless you all and make you good {FAT CHANCE!}

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:20 AM

DeG ~ Eh: wot's up Doc!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:16 AM

I'm quite looking forward to the mumming as well because...

I can cure the itch, the stitch, the palsey and the gout
Pains within and pains without
If a man has nineteen devils in him, I'll cast twenty of them out

I may be able to help Steve as well...

:D

(Guess what part I play with the Abram Pace Eggers)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:50 PM

Have you got a loving woman, some chickshit & a pile of feathers handy, Steve?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:09 PM

I sold my soul to the Devil just before I retired so the only way is down, but I'm enjoying it, in the style of all true masochists.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 03:43 PM

No, don't say that, Steve. I am sure one of those posters to the At Last A Pope Says Something Sensible [or whatever it's called] thread, down there below the line, could do something for you...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 02:37 PM

David 'Where do you get proper anoraks from nowadays?' They've all been replaced by Barbour waxed jackets.

Michael, I'm beyond redemption!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: squeezeboxhp
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 11:18 AM

not very attantive while Larkrise is on but if they must portray a whistle player or box player it should not take more than an hour to learn to get a tune out of either and make it look convincing.
i hope the producer made an attempt at getting a mumming play right for next weeks episode because it is after all acting for village people

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 11:04 AM

Where do you get proper anoraks from nowadays? I used to have one as a kid - Sort of pale khaki colour, like desert fatigues, pullover and with a big front zipped kangaroo pocket. I think I had in the scouts. Not seen one for ages.

D.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:57 AM

"But I don't even POSSESS an anorak," he sez pathetically!

Would a Barbour waxed jacket be acceptable? It's a beautiful green but it hasn't a hood {Oh God bless Steve and make him good!}

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: GUEST,Penny S.(sans cookie)
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:20 AM

Thanks for all the responses - I thought the compass thing would have been twenties, so would have got that wrong if doing something set then!

I have wondered at times, reading such rituals in fiction, which north is used. Is it geographic, or compass? And if compass, does it take declination into account? This could be quite important in high latitudes.

I have got the book ready to read, but it's in a box somewhere. I think. It was my parents' copy, and I spotted it during clearance. So I can't go out and buy it.

They go to such trouble with costumes - read what they did with Cranford - but assume that other things don't matter.

It was East Sussex. My chapel grandfather was scathing about the Oxford movement vicar of Mayfield. He changed the custom of the church with no regard to the congregation.

Penny

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:40 AM

Michael,
'I'm an ANORAK and I don't care,
I collect ladies' underwear!'
The worst anoraks recognise that they are anoraks and wallow in it. That's me!

FWIW I watch TV very seldom, but recognise that for those who need it it's largely a form of escapism. I just have other things to do with my time like stirring it on Mudcat, much more fun.

My definition of 'anorak' is anyone who spends an inordinate amount of time pursuing a minority interest. I think that just about covers everybody on here.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:37 PM

Thank you. I can go to bed now without worrying.

Maybe they make all these mistakes on purpose, 'cos the producers know about Mudcat? ;0)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 05:12 PM

WHERE did Pegleg get his money from?

He just sort off acquired it - I guess from begging all those years and never spending anything. The main thing was, he was keeping in 'in case he ever needed some'. Mrs T pointed out he really needed it then - but it was never resolved and he never came back. Like most things in life. There is no one ready answer!

Hope that helps.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 05:04 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if they were using steel melodeon reeds too. Then there are the violin strings.. They just don't care.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 04:27 PM

Dick - thanks for your explication. But you don't need to tell me that. All I watch on tv are football {had a full day today} & tennis, the two games I plAYED WHEN YOUNG {schools 1st XI GOALKEEPER, WOULD YOU BELIEVE!}; & Univ'y Challge for which for some reason I retain a weakness. & then only if they are on terrestrial which all I have. Sometimes my telly literally doesn't get switched on for days.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 04:22 PM

===Sorry, folks, you're in a very small minority. Why not write to 'Points of View' and really get it off your chest? ===
                            =========
Why should I bother Steve? Much easier just to avoid watching the bloody thing at all; so I don't. A friend once asked me what I thought of the tv Our Mutual Friend some years ago; & was surprised when I replied I hadn't watched it. "Don't you like Our Mutual Friend?" she asked astonished. "I love it," I replied, "that's why I didn't watch it." I think she got my point.

BTW ~~~ ANORAK right back to YOU!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 04:21 PM

M the GM,you misunderstood me,I dont believe there is much on television that is worth watching.
I prefer to play some music,or make my own entertainment,even playing chess on the computer.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 04:08 PM

I'm glued to Larkrise every week. I don't really watch it on a 'historical accuracy' level but I couldn't help noticing when a few weeks ago they had a guitarist in the village band playing what looked very like a Louis Panormo. On the soundtrack, however, was a much larger steel strung guitar. Hanging's too good for 'em.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 04:02 PM

Oh bums! I missed the vital bit.

WHERE did Pegleg get his money from?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 03:58 PM

Sorry about incoherent posts the other day - me netbook downstairs kept transmitting messages without me hitting enter, obviously possessed by a tree spirit!

I don't actually care a toss about the current BBC L R to C - as various people have said, it's typical Sunday evening disconnect yer brain stuff. Except that it gives people the wrong idea about a minor classic.

An example of something similar. Sandy Denny recorded a lovely version of the Inkspots' "Whispering Grass" with great people like Diz Disley and Danny Thompson on it. It went out as a single. Island never had a hope of pushing it because at exactly the same time, Don Estelle and Windsor Davies recorded it too. Guess which version popped up every bloody 5 minutes on radio (thanks Smashey and Nicey) and made it onto Top of the Pops? (Jim certainly fixed it!)

The best thing I think is to read the book(s) and decide yourself.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 03:46 PM

The Beeb are far more interested in their viewing figures to worry about a few anoraks.

Millions of people enjoyed Titanic for what it was, a spectacular piece of fiction based loosely on a real event.

Sorry, folks, you're in a very small minority. Why not write to 'Points of View' and really get it off your chest?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:52 PM

Ooh, I like that heart, Michael!

I'm hopeless with detail. I only have one brain cell, so most things pass me by/ ;0)...and I'm way too busy concentrating on the facial expressions, the words, who's falling for who....the clothes, the scenery...I love it all.

I tell you the most touching bit for me was the week before last, when Archie lost his little brother..and Queenie told him he had to 'let him go' because he was staying around for Archie..but he was in such pain...

Oh, the tears!

Nearly time!


Now you see, my brother would watch it and notice anything that was out of place historically....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:45 PM

Surprised at you both, Dick & Lizzie. You are both people of strong opinions and considerable intelligence, and I would have thought the principle that ACCURACY MATTERS would have been as dear to your ♥s as to mine.

Remember the belief of Lucky Jim in Kingsley Amis's novel of that name; who predicated his existence on the belief that "Nice things are nicer than nasty ones". Well I have the same sort of belief that "Right things are righter than wrong ones" — & I should have expected you two to agree with this.

Mind you, I might have mentioned before on this forum my pride in a remark on another forum on which I spent time, where another regular commented that "MtheGM's pedantry is legendary" ~~ I think she might just have meant some sort of a put·down; but my thought was "Cor: a legend in my own lunchtime yet: WOWZER!!"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:27 PM

Or...just watch Lark Rise through a haze of alcohol, then you won't notice all the faults and may actually end up enjoying it!

Waiter! More wine! ;0)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:23 PM

I suggest you all give up watching television,and spend your time playing a musical instrument,even if it is the pink oboe.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM

Absolutely, bubblyrat — I'm glad I am not the only one it drives to distraction... See my comments, above & elsewhere, re the 'sergeant-major' in Brideshead...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:15 PM

Of course,it's not just "Larkrise" that gets it wrong. In an episode of "Foyle's War" ,there appears a character purporting to be a Royal Navy Captain,in full uniform and sporting a moustache !! Unheard of !!
    A series about "Moll Flanders" a few years back, had the eponymous heroine,having boarded the 17 th century sailing vessel that was to take her to The Colonies, telling the Captain of said vessel that he was " Wanted on the bridge " !!! I mean,it makes you wonder who does the research for this kind of thing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 09:48 AM

There is an excellent book called Impossible Plays, written by Keith Dewhurst and Jack Shepherd, which tells the story of what became known as the "Cottesloe Company".

Thanks for that Bonzo, now on order from amazon!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 05:07 AM

It's Sunday! Lark Rise Day! Whoppeeeeeee!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: rich-joy
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 03:20 AM

I'm with Cats on this! :
"I am thoroughly enjoying the series and it is just escapism.
It may be inaccurate and bear little relationship to the original but the beeb, bless them, seem to have taken an incident in the book that lasts for an odd line or two, a paragraph or even a page or two and reworked it to a whole episode ...."

I enjoyed the book many many years ago, and so I bought Series I & 2 on DVD for viewing down here in Oz and find it to be delightful, non-stressful entertainment.
Try not to take so much stuff so seriously, People!!
..... sigh ......

Cheers, R-J
:~)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 05:45 PM

There is an excellent book called Impossible Plays, written by Keith Dewhurst and Jack Shepherd, which tells the story of what became known as the "Cottesloe Company".

I very much enjoy promenade productions - "the inconvenience is often considerable" sounds like a very glass half empty.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 01:38 PM

Re: promenade productions - many of the same team that did The National Theatre LR2C collaborated again on 'The Mysteries',and as a dyed-in-the-wool atheist I found the performance of the 3 promenade shows in the one day (IIRC on the floor of the then semi-derilict Lyceum Theatre in London) the most spectacular. engrossing, and moving theatrical experience of my life so far.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:13 AM

Could not disagree more. There was a production of this at Shrewsbury Castle a few years ago, with Bill caddick amongst others, and it was the most memorable theater production of anything that I have ever been to.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Lark Rise: BBC error?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 08:35 AM

Drifting slightly — I do hate 'promenade productions', of which the NT Lark Rise was a pioneer, however well-meant. I am always reminded of Mr Knightley, in Jane Aussten's 'Emma', saying he doesn't like surprises: 'The pleasure is not enhanced and the inconvenience is often considerable' ~ exactly how I feel about 'promenade theatre'.