Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]


Is traditional song finished?

Related threads:
So what is *Traditional* Folk Music? (411)
Still wondering what's folk these days? (161)
Folklore: What Is Folk? (156)
Traditional? (75)
New folk song (31) (closed)
What is a kid's song? (53)
What is a Folk Song? (292)
Who Defines 'Folk'???? (287)
Popfolk? (19)
What isn't folk (88)
What makes a new song a folk song? (1710)
Does Folk Exist? (709)
Definition of folk song (137)
Here comes that bloody horse - again! (23)
What is a traditional singer? (136)
Is the 1954 definition, open to improvement? (105)
Folklore: Folk, 1954 definition? (133)
'Folk.' OK...1954. What's 'country?' (17)
Folklore: Define English Trad Music (150)
What is Folk Music? This is... (120)
What is Zydeco? (74)
Traditional singer definition (360)
1954 and All That - defining folk music (994)
BS: It ain't folk if ? (28)
No, really -- what IS NOT folk music? (176)
What defines a traditional song? (160) (closed)
Folklore: Are 'What is Folk?' Threads Finished? (79)
How did Folk Song start? (57)
Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs? (129)
What is The Tradition? (296) (closed)
What is Blues? (80)
What is filk? (47)
What makes it a Folk Song? (404)
Article in Guardian:folk songs & pop junk & racism (30)
Does any other music require a committee (152)
Folk Music Tradition, what is it? (29)
Trad Song (36)
What do you consider Folk? (113)
Definition of Acoustic Music (52)
definition of a ballad (197)
What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk? (219)
Threads on the meaning of Folk (106)
Does it matter what music is called? (451)
What IS Folk Music? (132)
It isn't 'Folk', but what is it we do? (169)
Giving Talk on Folk Music (24)
What is Skiffle? (22)
Folklore: Folk, Pop, Trad or what? (19)
What is Folk? (subtitled Folk not Joke) (11)
Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers? (124)
Is it really Folk? (105)
Folk Rush in Where Mudcat Fears To Go (10)
A new definition of Folk? (34)
What is Folk? IN SONG. (20)
New Input Into 'WHAT IS FOLK?' (7)
What Is More Insular Than Folk Music? (33)
What is Folk Rock? (39)
'What is folk?' and cultural differences (24)
What is a folk song, version 3.0 (32)
What is Muzak? (19)
What is a folk song? Version 2.0 (59)
FILK: what is it? (18)
What is a Folksinger? (51)
BS: What is folk music? (69) (closed)
What is improvisation ? (21)
What is a Grange Song? (26)


Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Feb 10 - 07:11 AM
glueman 25 Feb 10 - 07:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Feb 10 - 06:51 AM
glueman 25 Feb 10 - 06:20 AM
Tim Leaning 25 Feb 10 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 25 Feb 10 - 05:50 AM
Jack Blandiver 25 Feb 10 - 05:08 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Feb 10 - 04:34 AM
Tim Leaning 25 Feb 10 - 04:21 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Feb 10 - 04:09 AM
theleveller 25 Feb 10 - 03:42 AM
robinia 24 Feb 10 - 08:18 PM
GUEST,999 24 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM
Jack Campin 24 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 10 - 07:38 PM
George Papavgeris 24 Feb 10 - 07:23 PM
Bounty Hound 24 Feb 10 - 06:56 PM
JedMarum 24 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM
Jack Blandiver 24 Feb 10 - 05:50 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 10 - 04:05 PM
Spleen Cringe 24 Feb 10 - 03:35 PM
Bert 24 Feb 10 - 03:12 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 10 - 03:11 PM
treewind 24 Feb 10 - 02:56 PM
Jack Campin 24 Feb 10 - 02:47 PM
Bert 24 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM
TheSnail 24 Feb 10 - 02:36 PM
Brian Peters 24 Feb 10 - 02:27 PM
Goose Gander 24 Feb 10 - 02:19 PM
Bert 24 Feb 10 - 01:57 PM
Jack Campin 24 Feb 10 - 01:45 PM
Bert 24 Feb 10 - 01:27 PM
Goose Gander 24 Feb 10 - 01:00 PM
Bert 24 Feb 10 - 12:49 PM
Goose Gander 24 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM
Goose Gander 24 Feb 10 - 12:29 PM
Bert 24 Feb 10 - 12:25 PM
theleveller 24 Feb 10 - 12:21 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 24 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 10 - 12:05 PM
theleveller 24 Feb 10 - 11:03 AM
Genie 24 Feb 10 - 09:55 AM
Gavin Paterson 24 Feb 10 - 09:37 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 10 - 09:15 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Feb 10 - 09:06 AM
treewind 24 Feb 10 - 08:13 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Feb 10 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,ruairiobroin 24 Feb 10 - 08:07 AM
Flashmeister 24 Feb 10 - 07:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Feb 10 - 07:26 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:11 AM

Nice post Don T.
And just to be contentious, I'm rather tempted to learn this:
Times have changed, And we've often rewound the clock, ...
But now, God knows, Anything Goes


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:04 AM

A fair point Don. To the average twenty year old traditional music is as remote as chain mail and Chaucer. An earlier generation had contemporary voices to mediate and interpete songs for them, the songs became for want of a better word, fashionable.

Who knows how youngsters will connect with traditional music but it certainly won't be on a forced diet of 'this is good for you', it might be because, perish the thought, they'll be entertained.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 06:51 AM

""long after your recent wish that no more traditional songs be sung because - to paraphrase because I cant be arsed""

As one who leans toward what you erroneously call the "Anything Goes Brigade", may I ask do you have any evidence to support that slur about not wanting traditional songs to be sung because we "can't be arsed"?

Certainly, I have advocated a more relaxed attitude to what is welcomed in a folk club, and in fact am comfortable with the occasional pop or rock number.

I have, however, never attempted to discourage traditional song. Quite the opposite in truth. I simply try to encourage people to attend, and I can point to a number of people who came to clubs and sessions in which I was involved, with a 60s/70s, or a Jazz repertoire, who are now regularly performing traditional material.

The following is an excerpt from the publicity for a new monthly session hosted by the currently up and coming band "Wheeler Street".

"Wheeler Street took their name from the address of The Greyhound pub, to acknowledge the debt that they owed to the participants of the unfortunately now defunct singaround that was held there bi-monthly until it was closed two years ago.

In the three or four years since forming, Wheeler Street have won themselves thousands of fans all over the UK, most of whom would never have considered listening to traditional or folk music before.

Many of the tunes and songs they perform were first heard at The Greyhound and they continue to be influenced by the singarounds they still attend.

Wheeler Street are stiIl all under 21, and so of course are all their friends, and those of you who have witnessed it will, hopefully, be as delighted as I am to see kids of 18 or 19 arriving on skateboards and bellowing out chorus songs and shanties with the best of them:

We have chosen to hold this singaround at The Old House at Home for a number of reasons.

Firstly Jim, the landlord, is a great supporter of Wheeler Street and the Starks family band, and is a lovely man who is prepared to bend over backwards to make it work, and although not a folkie (yet) Is a pretty good singer himself. There is sufficient room to hold loads of participants, and all the friends and families that usually accompany WS gatherings and most importantly the beer's not bad at all.
""

These youngsters came to the Greyhound with a varied repertoire of 60s/70s/Country/ along with some contemporary Folk (if I may call it that without getting a verbal beating).

They are now performing mostly traditional with great enthusiasm, and selling it big time to others their age.

Was it not worth having accepted them in the first place, to achieve that result?

Would it have happened without those you despise so, the "Anything Goes Brigade"?

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 06:20 AM

Excellent points from SO'P and Chris B.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 06:05 AM

Me on me cranial implants.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:50 AM

I don't think the songs themselves are finished but I suspect that a lot of people are probably finished with them.

The question of whether they continue to 'survive' depends on what we mean by survival. If we consider that to mean that people continue to gather together socially to sing and enjoy them then they probably aren't finished just yet but there are certainly fewer folk clubs around, for example, than there were 30 or 40 years ago. This suggests that even allowing for people dying off there are a lot of people who just don't feel like going to them anymore.

The music and songs you hear at sessions (certainly in England) are often sung by people who have learnt them from records or CDs - often many years ago - and who have their own favourites which don't vary much over time. One of the reasons for this is that many session and folk club singers learnt most of their repertoire as younger men and women and if they are still working they probably don't have much time to learn more songs (until they retire, at any rate) unless they work in the sort of fields that allow them the time to do so (such as teaching or academia) or, if they have families, until their kids grow up.   So much of their material is recycled and in performance isn't that different from Karaoke (a much-maligned activity, in my view).

A lot of hope for the future of traditional song is invested in younger musicians. Fair enough. Young musicians have an enormous range of resources available to them nowadays that allow them to access any form of music that interests them. If you look at the track listings of a lot of younger artists' albums you suspect that most of their 'collecting' has comprised of nothing more strenuous that going through their parents' record collections.

However, it seems to me that the decision of many young artists to invest their time and energy in traditional music is essentially a consumer choice and a career decision rather than a continuation of a living tradition where the music survives as part of a community's life rather than as a means to an end. Commercial decisions can be changed, of course, as commercial conditions vary.

At present, many traditional artists are able to make a fairly comfortable living playing at the many outdoor summer festivals in various countries as well as the various arts centres and arts festivals at indoor venues around the country. Part of the reason for that is that at present there is a generation of publicly-funded arts administrators who make programming decisions who grew up with the folk and college music scenes in the 60s and 70s.

So for the time being there is still a fairly lucrative amount of work available for established folk artists in what is essentially a nationalized branch of the entertainment industry. The same applies to the various academic courses in folk- and traditional-related music that now exist in the academic world in Britain and Ireland.   Again, that can change as economic circumstances change.    Whether that is still the case in 10 or 15 years remains to be seen.

Jim refers to Tom Munnelly describing his work as 'a race with the undertaker'. Without wanting to be morbid, the increasingly elderly audience for commercial folk music (including folk clubs), even at performances by younger artists, suggests that while there is no reason to expect the body of traditional song that has been collected, gathered, recorded and preserved (electronically and otherwise) to disappear, I wonder who's going to be listening to them in 20 years from now – and where.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:08 AM

No, it's only your, and the small band of 'anything goes' merchants' reality,

For a start, it's not a small band, and it's hardly mine. Such a folk club exists at the end of my street & I haven't darkened its doors since early December largely because of the 'anything goes' approach which, whilst it doesn't inspire me, is the right and privilege of those who go and enjoy it. With one or two very small exceptions, I can't think of a single folk club or singaround I have been to in the past decade and more that wasn't more 'anything goes' than trad.

but mine is the one that's researched and document and published and archived and will continue to survive long after your recent wish that no more traditional songs be sung because - to paraphrase because I cant be arsed - 'Harry Cox, Phil Tanner, Sam Larner, et al have done them to perfection'

Good on you too, but at least have the decency to quote me in context. What I said was: If people never sang another note of these songs it would be no bother me at all; they have been sung by the masters - Phil Tanner, Davie Stewart, Harry Cox, Walter Pardon, Sam Larner, Willie Scott, Mrs Pearl Brewer of Arkansas et al - let that be enough to let them resound down the ages.

Allow to to explain. The Tradition and The Revival are two very different things. As far as listening to Traditional Songs goes, then I'll listen to Traditional Singers, rather than endure the increasingly MOR output of Revival Singers. The Traditional Songs are part of history - along with so much else, they are artefacts from a world which is lost to us. Times have changed, culture has moved on, but there will always be a few of us looking back - be it the folk song enthusiast in his or her local singaround, or the model railway enthusiast is his (or her? I think not somehow...) loft - or any number of other historical re-creators & re-enactors, from the Vikings to the English Civil War.

Folk Song Enthusiasm is a minority hobby which in no way reflects the glory of the Traditional Song or the singers named above. This is why it wouldn't overly bother me if people stopped singing them altogether. As I say, they have been sung by the masters, and this fact alone ensures their relevance to the future. Similarly, it wouldn't bother me if Model Railway Enthusiast stopped re-creating the past in miniature - it would hardly effect the reality that was the age of steam. Likewise Viking re-enactors play a very small part in my appreciation of Ancient Norse culture; their loss too I could easily endure.

But this is a far cry from wishing they'd stop; nothing could be further from the truth. My wish is that they keep on singing the old songs in greater abundance & greater passion; my wish is that new generations of singers address themselves assiduously to the true glories of The Tradition and that every folk club & singaround becomes besieged by passionate singers of traditional song & ballad; that roofs and spirits alike are raised with roaring choruses - to tell to all eternity we're glad that we're alive! indeed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:34 AM

>The 'folk club' tag may be something of a misnomer in places, as what is played or sung might bare little or no resemblance to any kind of 'folk music'<

The key word there is "might" because in my (albeit fairly limited) experience the ratio of old to new ranges considerably. Some amateur sessions can be chock full of the old songs in varying forms. Either way, it bothers me not. I enjoy the variety and the camraderie.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:21 AM

"Is traditional song finished?"
No there are always another 47 verses!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:09 AM

JC "Is that really what people want? If so, let's all pull stumps and go home."

SO'P is describing the kind of music *amateur musicians* might play when gathered together under the rough tag of 'folk club' but what is more rightly the singaround cum pub session, rather than the type of professional performer/performance that a proper folk club might offer up to it's paying audience.

I think some amateur musicians just want to gather in a sociable manner and make music together for fun. And it is fun. Whether they be playing their own compositions on electric keyboard or singing unaccompanied traditional songs. It's democratic, home-made, good-natured fun. The 'folk club' tag may be something of a misnomer in places, as what is played or sung might bare little or no resemblance to any kind of 'folk music' other than what may be found in the spirit of communal participation in (as opposed to passive consumption of) self-made entertainment. And as a participant in such affairs, I'm all for them.

Otherwise, I think it more likely that someone new (presumably young?) wanting to 'dip their toes' into folk, will hear a song by Bellowhead on the radio or telly and think about going to a Bellowhead gig or a folk festival as a consequence, rather than seeking out a folk club. That's my guess based on the types of thing young 'uns into music tend to do. I'm invariably the youngest bar the children at any club I've gone to, and I'm no longer young by general standards. So I think the liklihood of someone being turned off folk music as a consequence of attending an amateur music session is fairly remote IMHO. It may happen sometimes, but I'd be very surprised if it was a common enough occurance to make any difference to the demographic of those interested on folk song proper.

Having said that, clearly from what's said here at least, I think there is a dedicated band of traditional enthusiasts who would probably like to be able to go to an amateur folk clubs/singarounds and hear more traditional material played and sung. If they are frustrated with the status quo of the average amateur session however, then it's them as has to organise something to more specifically suit their tastes and wants rather than impose restrictive conditions on others - even if the 'folk club' tag has become a shorthand phrase synonomous with 'amateur acoustic music club in a pub' when used in some contexts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:42 AM

"by and large they are not leaving the greenhouse conditions of the folk club"

Not true in my case and with a lot of the songwriters I mentioned earlier. The songs get aired regularly in pubs, schools, on local radio stations and at private parties and gatherings. I don't go to folk clubs all that often these days but I did have a retired farmer who was moved to tears when I sang a song in a village pub recently and he came up and asked for the words. I can only speak from personal experience but it does differ considerably from yours, Jim.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: robinia
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:18 PM

"Given that Cecil Sharpe bowdlerised most of what he collected..."   In what sense is that a given?    Thanks for bringing this up, Brian, because I question the assumption that Sharpe was personally responsible for any "bowlderising" of old ballads. Has anyone considered the possibility that singers modified their own language?   He was obviously a visitor from polite society, and older singers might well have felt a sense of constraint about what they sang...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM

"Is traditional song finished?"

Ask me at midnight Thursday. I started it yesterday.


KIND gentlemen, will you be patient awhile?
Ay, and then you shall hear anon
A very good ballad of bold Robin Hood,
And of his man, brave Little John.
In Locksly town, in Nottinghamshire,
In merry sweet Locksly town,
There bold Robin Hood he was born and was bred,
Bold Robin of famous renown.
The father of Robin a forester was,
And he shot in a lusty long bow,
Two north country miles and an inch at a shot,
As the Pinder of Wakefield does know.
For he brought Adam Bell, and Clim of the Clugh,
And William a Clowdesle
To shoot with our forrester for forty mark,
And the forrester beat them all three.
His mother was neece to the Coventry knight,
Which Warwickshire men call Sir Guy;
For he slew the blue bore that hangs up at the gate,
Or mine host of The Bull tells a lye.
Her brother was Gamwel, of Great Gamwel Hall,
And a noble house-keeper was he,
Ay, as ever broke bread in sweet Nottinghamshire,
And a squire of famous degree.
The mother of Robin said to her husband,
My honey, my love, and my dear,
Let Robin and I ride this morning to Gamwel,
To taste of my brothers good cheer.
And he said, I grant thee thy boon, gentle Joan,
Take one of my horses, I pray;
The sun is a rising, and therefore make haste,
For to-morrow is Christmas-day.
Then Robin Hoods fathers grey gelding was brought,
And sadled and bridled was he;
God wot, a blew bonnet, his new suit of cloaths,
And a cloak that did reach to his knee.
She got on her holiday kirtle and gown,
They were of a light Lincoln green;
The cloath was homespun, but for colour and make
It might a beseemed our queen.
And then Robin got on his basket-hilt sword,
And his dagger on his tother side,
And said, My dear mother, let's haste to be gone,
We have forty long miles to ride.
When Robin had mounted his gelding so grey,
His father, without any trouble,
Set her up behind him, and bad her not fear,
For his gelding had oft carried double.
And when she was settled, they rode to their neighbours,
And drank and shook hands with them all;
And then Robin gallopt, and never gave ore,
Till they lighted at Gamwel Hall.
And now you may think the right worshipful squire
Was joyful his sister to see;
For he kist her and kist her, and swore a great oath,
Thou art welcome, kind sister, to me.
To-morrow, when mass had been said in the chappel,
Six tables were coverd in the hall,
And in comes the squire, and makes a short speech,
It was, Neighbours, you're welcome all.
But not a man here shall taste my March beer,
Till a Christmas carrol he sing:
Then all clapt their hands, and they shouted and sung,
Till the hall and the parlour did ring.
Now mustard and braun, roast beef and plumb pies,
Were set upon every table:
And noble George Gamwel said, Eat and be merry,
And drink too, as long as you're able.
When dinner was ended, his chaplain said grace,
And, 'Be merry, my friends,' said the squire;
'It rains, and it blows, but call for more ale,
And lay some more wood on the fire.
'And now call ye Little John hither to me,
For Little John is a fine lad
At gambols and juggling, and twenty such tricks
As shall make you merry and glad.'
When Little John came, to gambols they went,
Both gentleman, yeoman and clown;
And what do you think? Why, as true as I live,
Bold Robin Hood put them all down.
And now you may think the right worshipful squire
Was joyful this sight for to see;
For he said, Cousin Robin, thou'st go no more home,
But tarry and dwell here with me.
Thou shalt have my land when I dye, and till then
Thou shalt be the staff of my age;
'Then grant me my boon, dear uncle,' said Robin,
'That Little John may be my page.'
And he said, Kind cousin, I grant thee thy boon;
With all my heart, so let it be;
'Then come hither, Little John,' said Robin Hood,
'Come hither, my page, unto me.
'Go fetch my bow, my longest long bow,
And broad arrows, one, two, or three;
For when it is fair weather we'll into Sherwood,
Some merry pastime to see.'
When Robin Hood came into merry Sherwood,
He winded his bugle so clear,
And twice five and twenty good yeomen and bold
Before Robin Hood did appear.
'Where are your companions all?' said Robin Hood,
'For still I want forty and three;'
Then said a bold yeoman, Lo, yonder they stand,
All under a green-wood tree.
As that word was spoke, Clorinda came by;
The queen of the shepherds was she;
And her gown was of velvet as green as the grass,
And her buskin did reach to her knee.
Her gait it was graceful, her body was straight,
And her countenance free from pride;
A bow in her hand, and quiver and arrows
Hung dangling by her sweet side.
Her eye-brows were black, ay, and so was her hair,
And her skin was as smooth as glass;
Her visage spoke wisdom, and modesty too;
Sets with Robin Hood such a lass!
Said Robin Hood, Lady fair, whither away?
O whither, fair lady, away?
And she made him answer, To kill a fat buck;
For to-morrow is Titbury day.
Said Robin Hood, Lady fair, wander with me
A little to yonder green bower;
There sit down to rest you, and you shall be sure
Of a brace or a lease in an hour.
And as we were going towards the green bower,
Two hundred good bucks we espy'd;
She chose out the fattest that was in the herd,
And she shot him through side and side.
'By the faith of my body,' said bold Robin Hood,
'I never saw woman like thee;
And comst thou from east, ay, or comst thou from west,
Thou needst not beg venison of me.
'However, along to my bower you shall go,
And taste of a forresters meat:'
And when we come thither, we found as good cheer
As any man needs for to eat.
For there was hot venison, and warden pies cold,
Cream clouted, with honey-combs plenty;
And the sarvitors they were, beside Little John,
Good yeomen at least four and twenty.
Clorinda said, Tell me your name, gentle sir;
And he said, 'Tis bold Robin Hood:
Squire Gamwel's my uncle, but all my delight
Is to dwell in the merry Sherwood.
For 'tis a fine life, and 'tis void of all strife.
'So 'tis, sir,' Clorinda reply'd;
'But oh,' said bold Robin, 'How sweet would it be,
If Clorinda would be my bride!'
She blusht at the motion; yet, after a pause
Said, Yes, sir, and with all my heart;
'Then let's send for a priest,' said Robin Hood,
'And be married before we do part.'
But she said, It may not be so, gentle sir,
For I must be at Titbury feast;
And if Robin Hood will go thither with me,
I'll make him the most welcome guest.
Said Robin Hood, Reach me that buck, Little John,
For I'll go along with my dear;
Go bid my yeomen kill six brace of bucks,
And meet me to-morrow just here.
Before we had ridden five Staffordshire miles,
Eight yeomen, that were too bold,
Bid Robin Hood stand, and deliver his buck;
A truer tale never was told.
'I will not, faith!' said bold Robin: 'Come, John,
Stand to me, and we'll beat em all:'
Then both drew their swords, an so cut em and slasht em
That five of them did fall.
The three that remaind calld to Robin for quarter,
And pitiful John beggd their lives;
When John's boon was granted, he gave them good counsel,
And so sent them home to their wives.
This battle was fought near to Titbury town,
When the bagpipes bated the bull;
I am king of the fidlers, and sware 'tis a truth,
And I call him that doubts it a gull.
For I saw them fighting, and fidld the while,
And Clorinda sung, Hey derry down!
The bumpkins are beaten, put up thy sword,Bob,
And now let's dance into the town.
Before we came to it, we heard a strange shouting,
And all that were in it lookd madly;
For some were a bull-back, some dancing a morris,
And some singing Arthur-a-Bradly.
And there we see Thomas, our justices clerk,
And Mary, to whom he was kind;
For Tom rode before her, and calld Mary, Madam,
And kist her full sweetly behind.
And so may your worships. But we went to dinner,
With Thomas and Mary and Nan;
They all drank a health to Clorinda, and told her
Bold Robin Hood was a fine man.
When dinner was ended, Sir Roger, the parson
Of Dubbridge, was sent for in haste;
He brought his mass-book, and he bade them take hands,
And he joynd them in marriage full fast.
And then, as bold Robin Hood and his sweet bride
Went hand in hand to the green bower,
The birds sung with pleasure in merry Sherwood,
And 'twas a most joyful hour.
And when Robin came in the sight of the bower,
'Where are my yeomen?' said he;
And Little John answered, Lo, yonder they stand,
All under the green-wood tree.
Then a garland they brought her, by two and by two,
And plac'd them upon the bride's head;
The music struck up, and we all fell to dance,
Till the bride and the groom were a-bed.
And what they did there must be counsel to me,
Because they lay long the next day,
And I had haste home, but I got a good piece
Of the bride-cake, and so came away.
Now out, alas! I had forgotten to tell ye
That marryd they were with a ring;
And so will Nan Knight, or be buried a maiden,
And now let us pray for the king:
That he may get children, and they may get more,
To govern and do us some good;
And then I'll make ballads in Robin Hood's bower,
And sing em in merry Sherwood.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM

...(Have you read the whole of the Roxburghe collection? I have)...
No, but if I was to discuss a song on Mudcat, then I would look it up before comparing it with another song.


I didn't compare "While London Sleeps" with anything, because I don't know it. I do know "Streets of London", though, and I don't give much for the chances of its feeble tune ever being reused for other songs in the way that the broadside ballad tunes of 17th century London were.

London has a line of urban tradition that runs from Tudor times to the present day, where the usual rhetoric is melodrama, imaginative abuse and hilarious outbursts of bile. Leon Rosselson is maybe part of it, McTell certainly isn't.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:38 PM

"But don't shoot the messenger - that's the reality"
No, it's only your, and the small band of 'anything goes' merchants' reality, but mine is the one that's researched and document and published and archived and will continue to survive long after your recent wish that no more traditional songs be sung because - to paraphrase because I cant be arsed - 'Harry Cox, Phil Tanner, Sam Larner, et al have done them to perfection' - leaving the stage free to do whatever it is that you do.
Is that really what people want? If so, let's all pull stumps and go home.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:23 PM

Once more round the block, eh? I think the question is unanswerable definitively anyway. Just think: 50 years from now, or 100, or 150, others will attempt to answer it too. And I think that their answer will be more accurate than any we can give now, simply by virtue of their having more facts available to them.

What will their answer be? I don't care. All I know is that there are some great songs around, some of which are traditional by today's rules.Perhaps more will be discovered, or perhaps our descendants will look at the songs written in our period "in the tradition" and consider them traditional too. So what? Whatever their answer, it will be right - because we will be dead and unable to argue the toss or articulate the 1957 definition for them.

Meanwhile, in my lifetime, I am just having fun listening to, and still discovering to me yet unknown traditional songs. And that's plenty good enough for me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:56 PM

Definately not!, whilst there may only be a few undiscovered gems lurking in someones distant memory, as long as there are songwriters producing songs 'in the tradition' then the tradition itself continues. Folk song is a living process and as long as there is a respect for the original, then I see no problem with changing lyrics or adding verses to breath new life into traditional songs. I have done so myself with the version of 'Star of the County Down' I perform, and continue to write songs that I try to give a traditional feel to, often drawing on folk tales and historical events. an example can be found here, http://www.myspace.com/thebountyhounds 'Eyes of Flame' is a song I wrote to tell the tale of Black Shuck, which anyone from East Anglia will be familiar with. I hope with this, I am in my own small way, keeping the tradition alive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM

are all the apples picked from the tree?

Maybe, after a concerted effort all of the apples are picked, but it will fruit again.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:50 PM

I was staying out of this, but...

Anybody tempted to dip their toes into folk song for the first time is as likely to find SO'P's rag-bag as they are to find good folk songs and ballads well enough sung to catch their imaginations the way mine was (by the Spinners) in the early sixties.

More likely I'd say, old man - certainly in my experience. But don't shoot the messenger - that's the reality, one in which The Spinners legacy looms large enough I would have thought.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:05 PM

SC - I believe he has argued on various occasions that either all or no songs are folk and has used his shopping list as proof - suggest you read his latest offering on 'In Praise of Traddies' (if you do, could you or someone be so kind as to explain it to me - I can't understand a ******* word).
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:35 PM

Jim - at the risk of appearing pedantic, SO'P has referred to the rag-bag on a couple of occasions purely as a report of what he has found in some folk clubs. It ain't actually his rag-bag, although your frequent quoting of it (and admittedly he appears to have handed you a stick to beat him with) attributes it to him as if it was his bag rather than a pre-existing bag whose contents he has merely examined and commented on. Having attended singarounds where SO'P has regaled us with a few songs, I can safely report that his own particular rag-bag (for folk context purposes) consists almost entirely of tradition English-speaking songs, ballads and stories (with the odd curveball thrown in for good measure). At the risk of bigging up a mate, it's always a pleasure.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:12 PM

...(Have you read the whole of the Roxburghe collection? I have)...

No, but if I was to discuss a song on Mudcat, then I would look it up before comparing it with another song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:11 PM

"Come to Lewes and see for yourself."

I am not arguing for one minute that people are not writing songs Bryan - of course they are. But by and large they are not leaving the greenhouse conditions of the folk club, more often than not they remain unchanged and unadapted (except for a few self-concious tweaks) and there is a whole mass of people out there who never get to hear them. One of the great failures of the revival is that it has failed to engage with the population at large and it has failed to draw the attention of the general public to their own songs - not finger pointing, I was as much a part of that failure as anybody.
The arbitrary abandoning of folk song by many of the clubs and replacing it with 'singing horse music' has exacerbated that situation.
Anybody tempted to dip their toes into folk song for the first time is as likely to find SO'P's rag-bag as they are to find good folk songs and ballads well enough sung to catch their imaginations the way mine was (by the Spinners) in the early sixties.
Unfortunately the Universe doesn't start and end in Lewes.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: treewind
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:56 PM

It's unlikely that there will be any unattributable songs for future generations

It's well known that some songs have already been robustly asserted as traditional when the author was still alive, even to the face of the actual author.

"Attributable", yes, but not everybody bothers. Many will pass in to the body of songs that "everybody knows" or that were learnt from another singer who got it from someone else... and it will take significant academic research to find out who the author was.

Anahata


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:47 PM



There are tens of thousands of them so it's hardly surprising that somebody living in a different country might miss one that you happen to know. (Have you read the whole of the Roxburghe collection? I have).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM

Goose, I don't believe that all music is traditional. It is just that my idea of traditional is closer to Dick's than that of most purists.

...first define what they understood to be traditional, and then focus their efforts upon collecting what they could of this material.... Yes of course, and we are greatly indebted to them.

I tend to think that tradition is an ongoing living thing rather than a museum piece. Not so much that we don't need the purists and collectors, but that we really need more of them covering a greater range of song.

Brian, Yes things are changing. People are sharing songs on Youtube nowadays where they used to share songs at parties and in pubs. But they are still sharing songs.

Another good trend is that people are writing more songs now. Songwriting clubs are a much bigger thing now that they were even ten years ago.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:36 PM

Jim Carroll

please prove me wrong - please.

Come to Lewes and see for yourself. Here you'll hear the songs of Graeme Miles, Brian Bedford, Roger Bryant, Mick Ryan, Mike O'Connor, Barry Temple, Dave Weber and many more amongst a wealth of traditional material.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:27 PM

"Ordinary people will go on singing as they always have, regardless of collectors and folk clubs."

I'm very doubtful about this, although of course it depends on who you describe as 'ordinary people'. Treewind is correct in saying that cheap home recording technologies, and internet sharing sites like Youtube, are providing opportunities to democratize music-making. Thirty-four years ago we had people saying that Punk Rock was the new Folk Music and, in the sense that you only needed a a Woolworths guitar and amp and a couple of chords, they were right. But both of those examples (and of course the modern 'folk scene' itself) concern self-selected groups of 'musicians', rather than the much wider community that the phrase 'ordinary people' conjures up.

To hear people singing while they worked or went about their business was once common, according to many accounts. Parents sang to their children. People gathered in pubs to sing together. Many of the traditional singers who were actually asked about it, told of siblings, parents, uncles and aunts who sang. I don't believe that any of those instances of 'ordinary people' singing is common today.

I'm with MtheGM in looking to football chants and children's rhymes as amongst the last outposts of traditional singing (although if you talk to Sam Lee he will tell you that singing is still going on in several Englsih traveller communities).

Jim Carroll wrote:
"Even the children's songs are very much on the wane, or so I am told by teacher friends... It is the adult culture I was referring to (I can't speak for the terraces, where I wouldn't venture without protective clothing!)"

There were still old songs circulating and new ones doing the rounds when my younger son was in primary school seven years ago. Not sure about now. As for the terraces, I've recently resumed my attendance at Old Trafford after a long break (no more terraces, and no protective clothing required these days!). Although the old custom of gathering on the Stretford End to sing for an hour or two before kick-off has now disappeared, I can report that several of the songs I knew in the 1970s are still around, and new ones are being composed, either to tunes previously associated with United chants, or as parodies of opposing supporters' songs, or to fresh tunes drawn from popular music in its widest sense (new chants are rehearsed in the pub beforehand). Whether they are up there with 'Tam Lin' as examples of great 'folk art' is open to argument, but the oral tradition is still alive there.

Before I go, I just have to question the sixth post in this thread, since no-one else seems to have:

"Given that Cecil Sharpe bowdlerised most of what he collected..."

Er... in what sense is that a 'given'?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:19 PM

Bert, it was you who made a distinction between 'traditional' as collected by folklorists "on the rampage"; and the DT, which is "the real thing." It might be interesting to see what percentage of lyrics and tunes in the DT are drawn from collections of folklore, and which come from other sources. Unless you are going to make an 'all music is traditional' argument, then you should be able to understand that folklorists with limited time and resources had to first define what they understood to be traditional, and then focus their efforts upon collecting what they could of this material.

That being said, there is a range of possible approaches: Sharp collected older ballads that had been in circulation for some time and were unquestionably traditional; the Lomaxes leaned toward such material but also recorded newer songs; Randolph collected just about anything, including stage songs, commercial hillbilly songs, etc. So I'm still failing to grasp your "valid point" unless you are simply peeved that these folks and others weren't as all-encompassing as you feel they should have been.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:57 PM

...tunes like "Buggering Oates, Prepare Thy Neck" have a rather longer track record than "Streets of London"...

That doesn't mean that "Streets of London" is not part of an ongoing tradition.

And if you don't know "While London Sleeps" it doesn't say much for the statement that Songs of London are among the best documented.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:45 PM

The songs of London are among the best documented of anywhere, and from at least the 16th century have been the starting point for a huge number of later-collected rural English folksongs (as the collectors of those songs were well aware).

I've no idea what "While London Sleeps" was, but tunes like "Buggering Oates, Prepare Thy Neck" have a rather longer track record than "Streets of London".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:27 PM

...but much of this music would have been lost without Sharp, Lomax, Randolph...

Of course, I didn't say otherwise. What I am trying to say is 'They missed a lot' Perhaps that was of necessity because they didn't have the almost unlimited computer databases that we enjoy today.

I think that traditional song really includes a lot more than some purists would have us believe. There is a tradition of singing in London that rarely includes what we tend to call traditional music.

It is a tradition that leads on from songs like 'While London Sleeps' to Streets of London, and rarely includes the 'Fair Maid of Islington'.

And when I say 'it never started' I mean that tradition is an ongoing thing with no definable beginning.

...And who is this DT? I'd like to thank him. If you're referring to the Digital Tradition, then you must know that much of the lyrics and tunes contained therein are taken from the collections of early folklorists...

Yes it is Digital Tradition, and when you say 'much of the lyrics and tunes contained therein' also includes much that isn't, which is kinda what I was saying.

And don't be so up tight. Viewing a valid comment as a 'snide remark' shows more about your attitude than perhaps you would really like to reveal.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:00 PM

Wrong again, Bert. Those early collectors, for all their faults, had a clear idea of what they were looking for and we have literally thousands of traditional songs available to us, thanks to their efforts. You may have a hard time understanding and accepting this, but much of this music would have been lost without Sharp, Lomax, Randolph, etc. They didn't create it, but they preserved it.

And who is this DT? I'd like to thank him. If you're referring to the Digital Tradition, then you must know that much of the lyrics and tunes contained therein are taken from the collections of early folklorists.

But why let facts get in the way of a snide comment?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:49 PM

You're right Goose Gander.

I should have said "What we speak of as 'traditional' is just a vignette of what collectors thought was 'traditional' when they were on the rampage"

Fortunately we have DT which actually collects the real stuff.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

"What we speak of as 'traditional' is just a vignette of what people were singing when the collectors were on the rampage"

No, it isn't. 'Traditional' in this context refers to a specific body of English-language balladry and song, created and passed on under specific conditions. Sharp, etc. deliberately overlooked much of "what people were singing" (music hall, and other more recent commercial compositions) because it did not fall within their working definition of 'traditional' or 'folksong'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:29 PM

Isn't there an active carol-singing tradition in the south of England?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:25 PM

Finished? It was never started!

What we speak of as 'traditional' is just a vignette of what people were singing when the collectors were on the rampage.

Ordinary people will go on singing as they always have, regardless of collectors and folk clubs.

And songwriters will go on producing songs of all genres and all qualities despite snide remarks from 'Folkies'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:21 PM

"please prove me wrong - please."

OK, I'll try. Well, for a start there's the songs of Richard Grainger, Brother Crow, Wendy Arrowsmith, Jim Radford, Anna Shannon, Penni MacLaren Walker...oh, and on Saturday, I heard Gordon Tyrell sing a superb song he'd written called Leeds Bridge. Not forgetting, of course, Mike Waterson. And that's just a few people I know of personally.

Every year Richard Grainger runs the Klondike Songwriting Award and there's always a host of really good entries, mostly from songwriters from the north east. This year it was won by Jim Radford, with Wendy Arrowsmith and me as runners up. From what I can see, the craft is still very much alive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM

Dont know about songs but many of the traditional song composers of the folk of the lower incomes would never be able to afford to get into or stay long at venues in the contemporary market place- they would be excluded by economic segregation.

This is a bad problem and seems to me is limiting transmission as well as new composition.

They could also not attend the folk conferences either! Probably not be adequately clothed and bathed and be sober enough to be allowed in either. Such is the development and growth of elitism even in the so called folk world.

Conrad


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:05 PM

"However, that doesn't mean that the skills and desire to produce songs in the traditional style or styles have been lost."
Absolutely right; but when I look at S O'Ps shopping list of what passes for folk in some/many of todays clubs I am left with the impression that this is very much on the wan too - please prove me wrong - please.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:03 AM

Of course, as has been pointed out, songs can no longer become traditional in the 'traditional' sense as our society has totally changed and that means of transmitting and recording songs is no longer in existence. However, that doesn't mean that the skills and desire to produce songs in the traditional style or styles have been lost. Traditionally-inspired songs are still being produced and, to my mind, have no less merit than the conventionally traditional ones.

A good analogy would be, say, the Windsor chairmaker who uses the same skills and artistry as were employed in previous centuries to produce a chair that is not a reproduction but a genuine piece that is the result of the extension of a craft that has been around for hundreds of years. True, it will be sold to a different clientele, used in a different setting and, because it will probably bear the maker's name, it will not be anonymous, but it will not be in any way inferior to the chairs made by previous generations.

We value the skills of traditional furniture makers, thatchers, trug makers, willow weavers, dry stone wallers and the like, so let us not undervalue the products of today's songwriters who create wonderful offerings in a traditional style.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Genie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:55 AM

What is likely to keep today's songs (and any others published after 1922 in the US) from becoming "traditional" or "folk music" is the current US Copyright law, which The Mouse got thru Congress a decade or two ago.   Copyrights now extend to many decades beyond the death of the songwriter/author -- far enough that a song is likely to have fallen out of popular favor long before it becomes public domain.

This doesn't keep the songs from being sung but it does put a damper on their being performed or recorded professionally.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Gavin Paterson
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:37 AM

It's unlikely that there will be any unattributable songs for future generations, as a result of technology such the device upon which your eyes are trained.

The reason why songs are 'trad' or unattributed is surely just down to the method of distribution of the song.

Now that just about everyone can record and distribute their own songs, the authorship should hardly ever be in doubt.

So, does that mean that traditional song is finished?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:15 AM

"you are not allowing there for children's songs and football chants:"
You are right of course Mike; I should have given a nod to the tiny handful of exceptions, but I do think they fade into pale insignificance next to what has disappeared. Even the children's songs are very much on the wane, or so I am told by teacher friends.
It is the adult culture I was referring to (I can't speak for the terraces, where I wouldn't venture without protective clothing!)
In spite of very much unqualified and unsubstantiated declarations to the contrary we have become passive recipients of our culture, playing no part whatever in either its making nor its transmission - they have even provided us with hand controls so we don't have to rise out of our armchairs to be entertained or inspired. The present 'canned culture' that we now sold NO LONG SPEAKS FOR US as it once did through our traditional songs and stories.
One of the things we first noticed when we started recording traditional singers, both from Travellers with a living, if ailing tradition, and here in Ireland, with on that had largely disappeared, though still very much within living memory, was how relatively newly composed songs fitted in functionally with the old ones, not just as entertainment, but also as carriers of information, emotions, aspirations, values.... all the things that made the tradition a homogenous whole, as the Topic series put it 'a voice of the people'.
I believe that it is this that has disappeared, not the songs, which will be with us forever in one form or another.
This is why I believe that the jury is very much still 'out' on whether Anahata's statement that "the songs written today will become the trad songs of tomorrow" comes to fruition. I very much hope so; it was MacColl's dream and has always been mine, but.......
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:06 AM

I think that Rory refers to "vulges" - the people, for those who remember their Latin. If so he is probably right, but in one sense we are all working class now, and in another the vast majority of us are middle class now so that the lumpenproletariat is rare, although there is a substantial underclass.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: treewind
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:13 AM

"a rapidly dwindling culture of active participation in traditional arts and music"

I wonder.

We see the music scene dominated by mass-marketed stuff designed to make money, but there are still a few people making their own music. Before 100 years ago, that type of mass market didn't exist and most of us simply didn't hear any music at all from one week to the next. I'd guess that about the same number of people were making music for themselves then as are now - it's just that they are lost in the noise now whereas in the past they were much more noticeable and unusual.

Some kinds of amateur and independent music making are more accessible now than they used to be. Making and publishing recorded music is now a cottage industry, whereas you used to have to pay huge sums for studios and manufacturing. Anyone can make a CD now, or put their songs on a download site. Or make music videos for YouTube, as I've discovered recently.

Many of the songs collected in Sharp and RVW's time had filtered down from the music halls and theatres, so they were probably quite recently composed. I agree that the songs written today will become the trad songs of tomorrow - not all of them, but the good ones that tell a story or describe timeless human conditions and emotions that future listeners will be able to relate to, and have tunes and words that can be learned, taken away and sung again.

Incidentally there a lot of material that was collected in early 1900's but hasn't been published yet. The research isn't over yet...

Anahata


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:10 AM

Would you, ruair? ~~ Well, goodness, how sad.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,ruairiobroin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:07 AM

i would have thought that to be traditional it had to be vulgar .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Flashmeister
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:37 AM

I think what Jack is saying is rather poignant as there does appear to be a rapidly dwindling culture of active participation in traditional arts and music in favour of more transient and throw-away 'music' on the whim of whatever zietgeist is currently tittilating the pop moguls that have sadly saturated the vast majority of music heard in this country.
I do, however, think that music being made by contemporary musicians shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as I believe it will eventually become part of the traditional culture - especially songs written in a trad or story-telling style as it is all capturing a little piece of history in song. Take for example the miners' protest songs - recent history but nevertheless when sung in a folk session setting very much absorbed into the genre and style of traditional music - happily sat alongside little Matty Groves and Lord Randall.
There are plenty of musicians writing in the traditional style and I'm hearing those more contemporary songs already being passed around in session and folk club circles - it's not that traditional song is finished it's merely that in some cases the paradigm has shifted somewhat in the way that trad music is being played and kept alive - you're more likely to hear a shanty in a folk club now than on a boat! :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:26 AM

End of Matty Groves -

Well that's the way this song's been sung since I don't know when*
But Matty he's pissed of with this in two thousand and ten*
"Is there a doctor in the house?" young Matty then he cried
"For a Million times I've fought this fight and million times I've died"

Up spake the St John's ambulance man "I'll patch you up real fast
With my first aid book, my TCP and my box of elastoplast"
Lord Arnold took his sword once more, it's edge just like a razor
But Matty beamed down James T Kirk, who zapped him with his phaser

* Words change to suit the year

Not mine I's sorry to say but almost traditional at our club now!

DeG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 20 May 6:12 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.