BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:12 AM

Non Domicile and liability to UK tax - not easy to summarise, but when non-domiciled in the UK, liability to UK tax may well arise depending upon whether Resident and Ordinarily Resident, Resident and not Ordinarily Resident or Not Resident, and whether income arises from Employment duties performed wholly or partly in the UK and Employment duties performed wholly outside the UK.

To further cloud the picture, if you are resident and ordinarily resident but are not domiciled in the UK the remittance basis operates differently from the way in which it works for individuals who are resident but not ordinarily resident in the UK. You are liable to UK tax on the arising basis for any earned income where the duties are performed wholly or partly in the UK. The liability to UK tax on income earned wholly outside the UK will depend on the residence status of your employer.

Need I go on???

VAT however is a different story.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:00 PM

""A hung Parliament! Whata a wonderful idea. Lets hang the lot. :-)""

It is tempting, isn't it Les?   But we might need to remember who took over when the Soviet government collapsed.

Ours might all be crooks, but they are, in the main, inept and incompetent crooks.

Would we be wise to invite a takeover by crooks who are good at it?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 11:16 AM

A hung Parliament! Whata a wonderful idea. Lets hang the lot. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 11:10 AM

An excellent way to look at it, Don! ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:27 AM

""Regrettably I must agree with Don on the theory - but I can only disagree with him on which is the lesser of the two weevils (joke from the Hornblower series).""

You will no doubt have noticed, Richard, that I was careful to suggest only the choice between two alternatives.

It is not my place to tell anyone which alternative to espouse.

I'm laying myself open to quite enough vitriol on this rather left oriented forum, by honestly stating which party I support.

I can always content myself with the knowledge that I am not responsible for the actions of any fool other than myself.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:22 AM

Surely Hornblower predates: TV series 1998 to 2003, and books 1937 to 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:21 AM

""Unless, of course, there's a hung parliament, as seems likely. I, for one, will vote for what I believe in and that will be the Green Party, if they field a local candidate. I think it's a waste voting for Labour or the Conservatives; that's what democracy is all about, Don.""

Even a hung Parliament will still mean government by either Tory, or Labour, MPs.

If the LibDems have the sense to cherrypick the policies from both which are most beneficial to the Nation, then a hung parliament can work to everybody's best interest.

I have to tell you that on the three occasions during my voting lifetime that there has been a hung parliament, they have abdicated the responsibility, and backed the party which offered the biggest bribe (usually some form of PR), and later reneged. That party was Labour (not New Labour, but the genuine one).

I see no reason to assume that they will do any different this time.

BTW, whatever gave you the weird notion that we live in a democracy? The last of those was 2500 years ago, at the other end of Europe.

Constitutional Monarchy nate! Like it or not, that's what we live in.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:15 AM

which is the lesser of the two weevils (joke from the Hornblower series).
Unless the joke's been re-used, I think you'll find it was the feature film "Master & Commander the far side of the world (2003)"

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:04 AM

Quote: voting for a party which can't win is just the same as not voting at all

Thats always the answer that gets trotted out, but if enough of us do it, then they CAN win. With the poll narrowing so much, a small number of votes may make the difference especially in marginals. As The Leveller points out, this is the basis of democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:58 AM

Actually, Don, your remarks are very similar to what my grtandfather told me was said to him when he joined the Labour Party before the first world war (that, of course, had little in common with today's New Labour). Votes can change things - maybe not in a short time, but certainly in a lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:50 AM

"Old chestnut or not, for all practical purposes, voting for a party which can't win is just the same as not voting at all,"

Unless, of course, there's a hung parliament, as seems likely. I, for one, will vote for what I believe in and that will be the Green Party, if they field a local candidate. I think it's a waste voting for Labour or the Conservatives; that's what democracy is all about, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:25 AM

And perhaps I had better say this separately - preferably without any fluffy-headed gibbering.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:24 AM

Regrettably I must agree with Don on the theory - but I can only disagree with him on which is the lesser of the two weevils (joke from the Hornblower series). You have a choice between reluctant captives of the Thatcher legacy, or wolves (and toffs amongst wolves at that) in sheeps' clothing.

None of that, however, was the point of the thread. It was about individuals systematically (and to a material extent, successfully) seeking to suborn the democratic process. On that basis I can only infer that no-one does know of any such more worthy of condemnation than those I selected, and, moreover, that there is no such attempted subornation deriving from the left. Or from any religion.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:02 PM

""Can we just scotch that old chestnut once and for all. A vote for the Lib Dems is a vote for the Lib Dems. It is just that the first-past-the-post voting system robs such a voter of his enfranchisement.""

Old chestnut or not, for all practical purposes, voting for a party which can't win is just the same as not voting at all, and is bound to benefit one of the two parties which can win.

Taking me to task over the semantics doesn't alter the practicality.

Better to hold your nose, and pick the one you least despise, lest you get the one you most despise.

Wasting your vote as a matter of principle, is still a futile gesture.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:43 PM

Bollocks is the nastiest influence in the UK. Namely, it's all a load of bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:16 PM

I think you need to qualify that Bonzo - I think some rules apply differently. Unless you are a tax inspector in which case I do not wish to annoy you, at least while using my real name.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:47 PM

You will like to know that domicile does not determine tax status - residence does, and their are very strict rules applied. A man cannot help his domicile, but can surely worm his way into residence/non residence or not ordinarily residence.

True to form the gutter press have got it all wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 07:55 AM

Can we just scotch that old chestnut once and for all. A vote for the Lib Dems is a vote for the Lib Dems. It is just that the first-past-the-post voting system robs such a voter of his enfranchisement. The fact is were all just sick of having it stuck to us by the bankers and the politicians. Until the status quo changes then we can bet that "the government will get in" and then screw the rest of us over once again.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:19 AM

G W Bush is involving himself in the politics of Northern Ireland.
Does that count?http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8556804.stm

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:49 PM

""You see, I neglected to interpolate "IMO" after "Thatcher got into power"""

Had you done so, Bryn, my response would have been entirely different.

I respect your opinion, as I would expect you to respect mine.

Given your take on New Labour, and the fact that we are all suffering the effects of their policies, I should have thought that a left wing Tory might be a viable option, at least until Labour remembers what it is supposed to represent.

To vote Green, LibDem or any other fringe party is, depending on where you live, either a vote for Labour or a vote for the Tories, so you really might as well bite the bullet, and choose which.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 03:16 PM

The only thing nastier than Godfrey Bloom in the area I live is, of course, the nasty fascist BNP thug, Andrew Brons, but there are plenty of people working to make sure he never gets elected again. His election may actually have done some good as it has united people against the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 12:46 PM

I believe we get the politicians we deserve-they reflect all the bile greed and self obsession that we find in Britain today - how easy it is to point a finger at the greed of others as we load up our credit cards and ignore the plight of our elderly neighbours-how we moan at social services when an old person dies alone but never bother to knock on the door ourselves or report a child cryiing in the night . how we don't get involved out of fear of injury or because it will make us late for a journey-we can change our politicians every 4 years-when are we going to start changing ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 12:31 PM

Personally I would say that the nastiest influence comes from those MPs who decided to claim for things that they shouldn't stealing money fom all people living in the UK!

MBSG

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 12:29 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 12:26 PM

The nastiest influence in UK politics would most certainly be Olive Whatnoll...if she decided to get involved in politics.

Fortunately, she has not done so.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 12:18 PM

It's also Division and Teams.

My country is now in such a horrifying mess that all the major parties should put their differences aside and ccme together to do all they can to unite everyone and everything for the Good.

But they won't, because they're all too damned busy bashing hell out of each other's teams.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 11:40 AM

Charles Windsor has no relevance to 21st century UK - jesus - United Kingdom, gods help us.

At least his family seem willing to lead by example in the war effort (whether or not we should be at war is another matter), Andrew in the Falklands, Harry in Afghanistan.
Those who started the wars (Blair, Brown et al) don't seem to follow the example.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 09:27 AM

Seconded, leveller - another spot on comment.

Charles Windsor has no relevance to 21st century UK - jesus - United Kingdom, gods help us.

I have nothing agaist the present monarch, but when she carks it, I think it time and high time to put these parasites - especially that one with the jug-handle lugs - out to grass.

I shan't live to see the Britannic Republic ; but I reckons me grandkids will.

King Charles - the Last.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 09:06 AM

I am sure I posted this but the mudcat post eater must have found it particularly tasty:-)

As I pointed out earlier the common factor in all the nastiest influences are politicians. I cannot repeat often enough that in any other walk of life if someone was to say they knew best and could run millions of peoples lives they would be locked up. What do we do? Vote teh daft buggers in!

Answer? The Gnomish benign dictatorship! I don't know best or have all the answers but it would stop you wondering who was the lesser of the evils:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Stu
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:40 AM

Agreed leveller.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:35 AM

That meddling oaf, Charlie Windsor, is a pretty nasty influence in politics. Baroness Quin, a former New Labour euro MP and member of the Privy Council, has called his interference potentially "unconstitutional" in her new book The British Constitution, Continuity and Change – an Inside View. She also says he is unfit to be king. I'd go further and say that the monarchy has no place in Britain in this day and age.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:08 AM

Well, Don T, if I am in "ignorance of the situation"

(Ipssissima verba)

perhaps you will kindly enlighten me ?

This is a genuine request, not a snide side swipe.

You see, I neglected to interpolate "IMO" after "Thatcher got into power".

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM

""In the UK since Thatcher got into power (and for all I know, long before then), you can vote for so-called "left-wing" conservatism, under the nom de jeu New Labour ; or you can vote for so-called "right wing Conservatism",

headed by Cameron.""

As an expression of ignorance of the situation, this is a classic.

By no stretch of the imagination can Cameron be called a "right wing Tory".

The right wing hate the sight of him, purely because he has moved the party so far from the Thatcher ideals.

But he has the clout, and they've had to wind their necks in. I should have thought that some might have noticed his immediate reaction to the expenses scandal.

"Pay back or you don't stand for election as a Tory candidate". Stated on the day of the revelations.

When did Brown follow suit?.....Well, never, actually.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:08 AM

""Of course, the nastiest influence in the UK and the world at large is Capitalism""

I agree with most of the rest of your comments Ake, and if you could stand to change one word we would agree on this also.

You see, I really believe that it is not Capitalism per se, but its big brother "Corporatism" which you are really talking about.

Your local farmer, Undertaker, and taxi driver, are all Capitalists in the sense that they operate their own business,and control the means to do so.

It is the amalgamation of small business into these giant conglomerates which gives rise to the kind of soulless, uncaring,greed, which we both abhor.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:48 AM

What theleveller said, supra. I agree with every word Richard Bridge has written.

Problem is, I am effectively disenfranchised. IMO you couldn't put a ciggie paper between Cameron and Brown.

In the UK since Thatcher got into power (and for all I know, long before then), you can vote for so-called "left-wing" conservatism, under the nom de jeu New Labour ; or you can vote for so-called "right wing Conservatism",

headed by Cameron.

(Oh, before I am taken to task, the juxtaposition of the closing quotation marks is deliberate).

As to someone's comments above on Grunwick, I was on the picket line - were you ? Mrs Desai is a working class hero. When she spoke at an antiNF rally in Manchester many years ago, Tom Jackson and some of his

big lads were there to protect her.

I look at New Labour, and the only satisfaction I can get is in the knowledge that it is not the party which I fought, and literally bled, for. I am, alas, too old for 'lumps' these days.

Stick around, please, Richard - your country needs you. Don't hand the fascist twits an easy victory.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Stu
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:19 AM

"I think perhaps we have regressed to such an extent socially that we have no chance of changing a system built on greed and envy for one based on personal freedom and happiness."

I don't believe this Ake (or in my naivety I choose not too), and I think there is hope for some sort of return to the politics of ideals rather than economics. I think socialism has a role to play in modern society as does capitalism. Capitalism is not an intrinsically bad system but it's utterly incapable of self-regulation and this is where some sort of socialist-based system of government could make a difference. Take the capitalists ability to ride roughshod over everything and everyone in order to turn a profit and force them via legislation to take responsibility for their actions, both at home and abroad.

I'm not talking about Kenynesian economic intervention here, but a step beyond that. The re-nationalisation of the country's infrastructure and the NHS would be a start, and the building of new council houses and the abandonment of the Trident upgrade would also be a priority.

One of the main problems with modern politics is the lack of any intellectuals or deep political thinkers engaged in mainstream political life. Thatcher and the tories balk at the use of the term 'intellectual' even; it doesn't tie in with their boorish world view that money is the god we should all worship. Heck, it's been bandied about on this site enough as an insult and that really does show how dumbed-down we've become. Blair continued with Thatcher's work in this regard, surrounding himself with execrable media wonks like Alistair Campbell and spineless yes-men (and women) instead of people with some sort of sound or original ideological pedigree; the same gutless tossers who were pickpocketing the taxpayers whilst still having the gall to pay lip service to the party's socialist roots.

Cameron on the other hand, is being seen for what is. Bereft of any policies at all, playing constantly to the (press) gallery and struggling to hide the class prejudice that runs through the party like letters through rock it seems like the rest of the country might have cottoned on to the fact the Emperor is in the nip. Surrounded by his raffish buddies (with the exception of Eric Pickles, the rank outsider left in the team to fool that most gullible of buffoons, the working-class tory that they give a shit), Cameron can feel the proles and plebs slipping away from him as people realise that even though Gordon comes across as a bit media-unsavvy it might be better the devil you know rather than handing over the country to the toffs and supercilious, elitist whelps that make up the shadow cabinet.

We need original thinkers back in politics; both sides are in danger of sliding into an American-style political morass of commercial-led decisions taking precedence over the well-being of their citizens. Perhaps we're already there, if so it would be a sad betrayal of all the radicals and reformists that have gone before us and made our collective political heritage the treasure-house of wisdom through struggle it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM

Regrettably, having started this thread I shall now have to leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 07:33 PM

If only the left had someone with the political accumen and vision of Mrs Thatcher, her "right to buy" scheme was a masterstroke, making full use of left hypocrisy to turn working class Britain, "Conservative" overnight, with the added advantage that all the discount money could be retrieved through the banking and mortgage system.

Of course, the nastiest influence in the UK and the world at large is Capitalism....everyone with more than two conjoined brain cells knows this, the problem has always been what do we replace it with, yet cause the minimum of damage to the huge centres of population constructed by the capitalist system.

Socialism is simply a device to take the rough edges off the present system and could never be seriously regarded as an alternative.
Socialism is really of more value to the leaders of Capitalism
as a "safety valve", than to the dispossesed or the worker ants.

I think perhaps we have regressed to such an extent socially that we have no chance of changing a system built on greed and envy for one based on personal freedom and happiness.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: CET
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 06:58 PM

Well, he doesn't have much influence I suppose, but it's hard to get any nastier than the man who wrote:

"Thatcher alas created a mindset that still paralyses all tendencies for good and those who cannot or lie that they do not see that are still forces for evil. Long may she and all whom she loved twist in the fires of hell."

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:49 PM

Don't mince your words do you Lizzie? ;-)

However... I think you may have said what a great many, myself included, think these days. It has not always been the same.

I am sure not all MP's are bad or uber-selfish. Nor would I believe it that they all were. But so many seem so totally out of touch now and have done a good job of affirming most of the things you mention above. Any of them that stands up on principles and does not tow the party line soon gets put down.

Loss of trust often comes with betrayal, if in fact you have any trust in the first place that you can grab hold of, and when betrayal happens it has a crushing effect on its victims.

:-(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:36 PM

'globle' is a little known independant State, just north of Manchester..

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:35 PM

"The nastiest influence in UK politics"

Arrogance
Ignorance
Greed
Corruption
Dishonesty
Selfishness
Lack of Empathy
Lack of Humility
Lack of True Leaders
Lack of Integrity
Lack of Wisdom
Lack of Spirituality
Lack of Concern
Lack of Common Sense
Lack of Joined Up Thinking
Lack of Understanding
Lack of Embarrassment

Lack of real human beings who care more about their country, the people of that country and the people around the globle, than anything else in the universe.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:32 PM

""I think it is a low blow, not to mention wildly inaccurate, to describe the recently deceased Michael Foot (who received tributes from friends and foes alike of all political colours for his honesty and integrity) as one of the nastiest influences in British Politics.""

And as a Tory, I heartily concur.

A Labour party with the likes of Clement Attlee, Tony Benn, Michael Foot, John Smith, Bob Marshall-Andrews, and yes Neil Kinnock too at its heart, would at least make me seriously consider voting Labour. These men were genuine socialists.

What have we had instead?

Since I became old enough to vote, Wilson (arch crook), Callaghan (Ineffective bumbler), Blair (empty shell), and Brown (miserable Mr Bean, lurching from crisis to disaster and back again).

Labour (not socialism, because they are not synonyms) has brought this country low at every opportunity since 1964. They devalued our money, and handed sovereignty over to Brussels. At least Maggie, with handbag swinging, won some concessions from the EU, all of which, and more, Blair and Brown handed back.

I feel much the same about ersatz "working class" politicians, as RB does about "Etonian Aristos".

Does anyone really believe that the current mob, on £60,000+ per year, and expecting a rise of £1000, know, or give a shit, about the working classes. They regard us as the gullible twerps who go on voting for them because our fathers did, and I'm not all that sure that they're wrong.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 11:36 AM

I, personally, would love to see proportional representation on the voting books. It seems far more fair and gives less chance to autocracy. The pity of it all being that while we preach democracy to the world the actual cabinet system does indeed seem more autocratic of late. I see nothing wrong with having a strong leader but when they virtually get rid of any opposition to their own closed views we have dangerous precedents being set.

Is autocracy needed in a democracy or is it step closer to the dictatorships that democracy is meant to stop happening?

We keep seeing civil liberties being eroded all the time. That, too, is dangerously close to heading toward a direction many have given their lives to free us from

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:51 AM

"those left wing persons, including the late Michael Foot, who looked to the USSR and other communist regimes, for inspiration and financial support? "

Sapper, I'd be genuinely interested in seeing your evidence of this. Please quote chapter and verse.

Actually, probably the nastiest thing about politics is the voting system which needs to be reformed to refelect the true will of the majority of British people. And while we're at it, let's have a proper constitution which includes getting rid of the monarchy once and for all and spares us from any more idiocy from that unelected, ignorant and ridiculously expensive Windsor family.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:44 AM

Ratty, my school won the public schools' fives several years on the trot and held the Bisley Cottesloe vase for several years too.

Ah we played fives at Queen Elizabeth's Grammar School, Barnet.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:37 AM

Ive never been a proponent of 'de mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est' but I think it is a low blow, not to mention wildly inaccurate, to describe the recently deceased Michael Foot (who received tributes from friends and foes alike of all political colours for his honesty and integrity) as one of the nastiest influences in British Politics.

Just my opinion......

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:22 AM

The British system provides for a government cabinet in which the prime minister is, at least in theory, first among equals

Over Thatcher's 11 years in power, critics complained that cabinet government became something of a private joke. - there was the wonderful contemporary joke

"The Thatcher cabinet are sitting in a restaurant. The waiter asks Margaret Thatcher for her order and she replies "Raw Meat". The waiter then asks "And for the vegetables?" to which Thatcher replies "Oh, they'll have the same".

Many of the strongest personalities left, driven out by her insistence on personally controlling policy until, in the end, she was left with a cabinet that was far less experienced and
usually reluctant to contradict or challenge her.

Historian Martin Gilbert, author of an eight-volume biography of Churchill.wrote of her
``Both of them (Thatcher and Churchill) also understood that the essence of leadership was to choose a course of action you knew to be the right one and stay with it, and not try to achieve compromise in order to have an easy ride whether in cabinet or Parliament "

Nevertheless, during WW2 Churchill was very much still a part of a wartime cabinet as released documents demonstrate.

There have been many assertions that Thatcher 'destroyed' the cabinet system creating a much more presidential figure.

Blair stepped neatly into these shoes and probably suceeded in putting the final nail into the coffin of 'first amongst equals' whose methods were described by Barbara Castle, a former minister, as

- no minister presented any policy to Cabinet.
Instead, Mr Blair drew up his own version and discussed it with the minister and departmental civil service head.
An agreement would be thrashed out "and then they railroaded it through Cabinet"

With the deliberate destruction of cabinet government so we get Thatcherism, Blairism etc....

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: sapper82
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:14 AM

As a further point, Richard, surely the nastiest influence in British Politics was that of those left wing persons, including the late Michael Foot, who looked to the USSR and other communist regimes, for inspiration and financial support?

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: sapper82
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:10 AM

Interesting how Richard accuses people of having short memories whilst failing to recall what led up to the election of Margarete Thatcher.
The trade union anarchy that was coming close to destroying this country.
The "untouchable" industries of ship building and steel that refused to modernise in the face of foreign competition, soaking up massive subsidies in the process, yet still walked out on strike at the slightest pretext.
The howling savagery of the Grunwick picket line where rent-a-mob activists, using a union recognition dispute concerning a minority of workers from the firm, tried to prevent the rest of the workforce from exercising their right to go to work without intimidation or threats.
The workers who, under the foul abomination of "The Closed Shop" were forced into joining a union as a condition of being allowed to work.
The trade union leaders who were more than happy to declare solidarity with the Workers' Paradises of the USSR and China.

For too long the British Worker has been fooled into believing that the clique of middle and upperclass "Hampstead Thinkers" that constituted the upper heirarchy of the Labour Party actually had their best interests at heart.

I agree Maggie was a long way from being perfect and that she did make mistakes, but most of her actions were necessary.
The reason why they were as painfull as they were is entirely due to the cowardice of previous governments in failing to get to grips with the problems earlier.