BS: Catholic come all-ye

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:31 AM

I'd like to see the evidence that the Roman Catholic Clergy has a numerical superiority in pederasts over any other religious denomination or for that matter the population at large.

REAL evidence, not supposition or anecdotal.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Mooh
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:20 AM

Jack Campin said,
"I've known quite a few CofE/Anglican/Episcopalian priests over the years (in New Zealand, Scotland and England) and I'd estimate that more than half of them were gay."

Based on what?

I've known quite a few myself, starting with my father, many of his friends and colleagues, my parish priests, and many others from places I've visited. I suppose there may be some who might be gay, but half? I doubt it, and I see little evidence that it's even relevant.

I'd like to know what your evidence is.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:36 AM

Church of England for me if it's all the same to you - no raving queers for vicars!

I've known quite a few CofE/Anglican/Episcopalian priests over the years (in New Zealand, Scotland and England) and I'd estimate that more than half of them were gay.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:50 AM

"Church of England for me if it's all the same to you - no raving queers for vicars!"
Wonder if they've got any raving homophobes - if so, you should feel at home
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:28 PM

Yeah, I should have read the fine print. Feeney was excommunicated in 1953, but apparently reconciled with the Catholic Church in 1972 and was not required to recant his teachings. He died in 1978.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:01 PM

So, Feeney died "outside the Church

I seem to remember that the excommunication was lifted shortly before his death.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 07:48 PM

Well, there were people who taught that "outside the (Catholic) Church there is no salvation" (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus), and I guess the teaching is still on the books - but even grade school in the 1950's, we were taught all sorts of exceptions and loopholes. Nowadays, even the conservative EWTN has mitigating information on its Website. There was an infamous but very popular Jesuit priest, Father Feeney, who preached a very rigid interpretation of this doctrine that bordered on hatefulness. In an act of delicious irony, the Catholic Church excommunicated Feeney for refusing to back down on his teaching. So, Feeney died "outside the Church."
But to this day, there are Catholics who insist Feeney was right.

I think Jesus saved everyone, bringing the generosity and abundance of divine love to all humanity - but that's my belief, and most of you know I'm a damn liberal.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Lox
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 05:05 PM

"Church of England for me if it's all the same to you - no raving queers for vicars!"

Monty Python would have disagreed ...

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 03:12 PM

We are commanded to be Catholics by our church.

Placing yourself as subordinate to any chain of merely human (and arguably often highly aberrant) managers is entirely your individual responsibility. Your right to leave is a sovereign one that cannot be gainsaid by temporal authority or church officials. A command channel with no-one agreeing to be commanded is much like a war which no-one shows up for.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 02:47 PM

No Greg...I'm sure what she means is just what I expanded on: being born into a a group and having it become deeply part of us...I just didn't like the concept that suggests that we NOW have no control or say in the matter.

(well, I hope that's all that was meant. I hope there is no belief that some 'higher power' (even more powerful than kindergarten teachers) do it to us.)

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 01:34 PM

Who is it do you figure does the "assigning", Bill? Maybe its something like desks in kindergarten.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 01:31 PM

"I believe people are assigned to religions, like Baptist or Muslim or whatever ..."

*I* believe that is just silly....(sorry, but I can't think of a circuitous way to say it.)

*I* was raised a Methodist, didn't feel 'right' there, tried being a Unitarian, and that was better, but still a sort of ritual and overlay that was not 'me'...so I quit...and don't belong to any particular group, and haven't for 45 years.
I am aware that being raised in a particular religious tradition can, especially if it was regular & rigorous, imprint certain habits and feelings on one's...'psyche'?...and that is what bothers me.   
   Having certain routines and beliefs deeply imprinted can easily deter a person from looking at alternatives and from recognizing various forms of reasoning.
   I DO see that, if one does choose to remain in the church one is used to and finds strength and comfort in its ideals, that working like Joe Offer does within the group can be both beneficial and satisfying. If more folks did it like Joe does, we'd not need to complain and worry about theological differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 03:33 AM

Church of England for me if it's all the same to you - no raving queers for vicars!

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 12:43 AM

Well, Mary, I'm sure many Catholic priests worth their salt would tell you to check out the Unitarians if you're unhappy as a Catholic. You'd find a lot of former Catholics there. You also might find a place that would welcome your singing of your wonderful songs.
Modern pagan groups also have much to offer.

I've spent time with both pagans and Unitarians, and I've enjoyed both.
I think God will be happier if you find a religion where you're happy. Life is too short to spend it bogged down in surroundings you hate.

Yes, I'm very happy as a Catholic, but I choose Catholic communities that I think are healthy and where I can feel comfortable. And people will tell you that I was instrumental in fixing a couple of parishes that were not very healthy at one time. One is where I got married, and one is where I am now - and I love both of those congregations.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 11:53 PM

We are commanded to be Catholics by our church. We didn't seek out a compatible faith. I would probably be a Druid or a Unitarian if we were allowed to do that. I believe people are assigned to religions, like Baptist or Muslim or whatever and must do their best as one of whatever. In my case, my mother was a Baptist, so I consider myself half Baptist/Protestant. I think it is not a good idea to mix religions unless both people are wishy washy or at least one is. I did not have the good part of Catholicism, and there are some fun, pleasant parts, because my mother interpreted everything through her hellfire and damnation Baptistism. I would be a much better Catholic if I had gotten it from both sides of my family, and had experienced the pleasanter parts of it. But to each his or her own. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 06:03 PM

OK, I guess that sorta makes sense. And YES, I DO understand about the Blue Wall. It happens more often than the Public likes to think. I DO know about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:57 PM

Because every institution and every organization has its faults, Sorcha. So, the choice is to work to fix the places you call your own, or to keep searching for some new place where somebody else has already done the housecleaning.

The Catholic Church is where I come from, and I've lived a good life as a Catholic. The faith it teaches is MY faith, a faith that has brought joy and meaning to my life. I don't like the way some Catholics interpret the faith, but I am not required to accept their interpretation. The Catholic Church has allowed me many opportunities to do what I think ought to be done in the area of serving the poor and the causes of social justice and civil rights and peace. It gives me a platform from which I have been able to teach and serve thousands of people over the years. I am appalled by the widespread child abuse and coverups, but those things are not an integral part of the Catholic Church; and much has been done to fix those problems in the US. And the child molestation and coverups are not as widespread and people seem to think. From 1950-2000 in my diocese for example, the molestations took place in ten to 15 of the 99 parishes in the diocese, and there were ten priests accused out of about 300. And in my diocese, the bishop didn't cover the offenses up.

I suppose I could be an Episcopalian or Lutheran or Unitarian or Methodist or Jew, and I do feel welcomed and comfortable in all of those denominations; but those religious aren't where I come from. The Catholic Church is my home. It has lots of problems, but it is MY home, and where I feel at home. So, I'll stay where I am and continue to work to fix the problems. The problems were horrible - but the vast majority of American Catholics were not affected by them.

Same thing goes for drunk driving. It is indeed a horrible problem - and some people, most scandalously law enforcement officers and politicians, have not been prosecuted for the drunk driving crimes they have committed. There are far too many drunk drivers in my county and some have caused death and serious industry. So, should I move to another county? If I stay here, does that mean I believe in drunk driving?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: beeliner
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:57 PM

Kiesle was sentenced in 1978 to three years' probation after pleading no contest to misdemeanor charges of lewd conduct for tying up and molesting two young boys in a San Francisco Bay area church rectory.

I said three months in a previous post. Three years is correct. It still seems odd that an offense of that nature was regarded as a misdemeanor.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:43 PM

Mary, Kiesle was sentenced in 1978 to three years' probation after pleading no contest to misdemeanor charges of lewd conduct for tying up and molesting two young boys in a San Francisco Bay area church rectory.

When his probation ended in 1981, Kiesle asked to leave the priesthood and the diocese submitted papers to Rome to defrock him.
(see 'the document trail' above)

In his earliest letter to Ratzinger, Bishop John S.Cummins warned that returning Kiesle to ministry would cause more of a scandal than stripping him of his priestly powers.
He informed the Vatican that the priest took a leave of absence and met with a therapist and his probation officer during the three years.
It's not clear from the file where Kiesle lived during those years, but Cummins mentions temporary assignments in neighboring dioceses that never worked out.

Kiesle was ultimately laicized on Feb. 13, 1987 but continued to volunteer with children

After leaving the priesthood he married but was arrested and charged in 2002 with 13 counts of child molestation dating from from the 1970s.
All but two of these were thrown out after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down as unconstitutional a California law extending the statute of limitations.

In 2004 he pleaded no contest to a felony for molesting a young girl in his Truckee home in 1995 and was sentenced to six years in state prison.

Now aged now 63 he is a registered sex offender and his address islisted on the Megan's Law sex registry.

Bishop Cummins is now retired - he described the situation under the previous Pope as ....

"These things were slow and their idea of thoroughness was a little more than ours. We were in a situation that was hands-on, with personal reaction."

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:37 PM

OK, I'm not trying to be accusatory here, but what I do wonder is, if you 'believe' in this Church, and also 'ignore' and advocate 'ignoring' the parts you don't like, or don't agree with, why not find another church?

The Episcopal Church is nearly the same as the Catholic, but more personal freedom as far as beliefs, more freedom for women, etc.

I just don't get the 'believe but ignore' part.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:23 PM

Well, Emma - I would suspect that the person was functioning as a lay volunteer member of a youth ministry team in 1988, and not as a priest. He committed his crimes between November of 1977 and May, 1978, and he ceased functioning as a priest in 1978.
Note the date the ex-priest was serving as a volunteer - 1988. Since about 2005, all but one Catholic diocese in the US has required the fingerprinting of all church employees, and of all volunteers who work with youth. I would hope this convicted criminal would not slip through the cracks nowadays, but it appears that he did - 22 years ago.

-Joe-

P.S. Emma and Mary Garvey are referring to the same case. It took me a little while to figure that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 04:56 PM

The document trail

Documents detailing efforts begun in the early 1980s by officials of the Catholic Church in California to support the petition of a convicted sex offender, the Rev. Stephen Kiesle, to leave the priesthood.

As Joe said
'It is important that a sex offender priest has his "faculties" withdrawn by his bishop, so that he is no longer allowed to function as a priest.'

which makes the final document dated May 11, 1988 from Maurine Behrend, in the Oakland Diocese's Youth Ministries Office all the more disturbing as she expresses her frustration that "a convicted child molester is currently the youth ministry coordinator at St. Joseph's Parish."

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 04:49 PM

I believe, but could be corrected, that the priest went to jail for 3 months. He also abused afterwards and was allowed to volunteer with children. Wrong tree? Perhaps. Right tree? Perhaps. I do not care if he is allowed to function as a priest or not. In many situations I would say let him, under full disclosure and supervision. The day will come when we will need every priest we can muster in WWIII or whatever.

I care if he is allowed to function as a child abuser or not. He was. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 04:35 PM

This is all well and good, Mary, but your friend Andrew Sullivan didn't tell the whole story, and you have built your whole case on his fallacies. Ratzinger/Benedict did not protect the criminal priest in any way. The priest did his crime, and went to prison. He did not function as a priest after he was convicted.

What Ratzinger/Benedict failed to do, was to follow the schedule and specifications for laicization that Andrew Sullivan demands. Most of the time, laicization has little significance, because the person almost always has stopped functioning as a priest many years before the laicization is finalized. It is important that a sex offender priest has his "faculties" withdrawn by his bishop, so that he is no longer allowed to function as a priest.

But Andrew Sullivan has apparently defined laicization ("defrocking") as the Holy Grail of punishment for sex offender priests, and Mary Garvey apparently believes Mr. Sullivan and his putative expertise in canon law. If Mr. Sullivan and Ms. Garvey seek a Holy Grail, what they should seek is a criminal conviction and a prison sentence for the sex-offender priest. And in this case, the offender was sent to prison, and the issue of laicization is moot.

And Mr. Sullivan and Ms. Garvey are barking up the wrong tree.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 03:58 PM

I think there is a mechanism for the pope to resign, and that is for every one of us who hates this drama to insist that he do. I would suspect that even now he is looking for a way out...he could simply say I do not have the stamina for this, or the credentials and I am a living embodiment of the scandal. People have said Cardinal O'Malley was good at getting things in order..I don't know anything about him but Pope O'Malley has a nice ring to it.

I have written to the Seattle Times and Portland Oregonian, and plan to find out who the archibishops are of Clermont Iowa, and Dingle Ireland, where my ancestors are from. Anyone know? I will google.

No mas, no more. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: beeliner
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 03:22 PM

...those vindictive and morrally depraved Christian Brothers...

They make GREAT brandy though!

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 02:38 PM

banjoman- I totally agree. The decent in the Catholic Church- as in the rest of society- vastly outnumber the vile. But the big problem we have to face- the Church and society as a whole- is why the decent are ALWAYS outweighed by the vile. The child abuse scandal could be taken as a parable of our society's whole approach to inequality. Sexual abuse is not the only destroyer of the human soul. Poverty- by which don't mean only lack of money, but in the wider sense of the denial of opportunity to develop- is the enemy. And it is profitable- the powerless can be deprived of resources and land (see Europe, America and China in Africa), culture (plundered for fashion - Callino Custur Me perhaps), self respect, and finally, when defenceless, of power over their own body cavities- to me there's not a great gulf between the Catholic (or in former times Church of England) minister abusing his charges, and the sex tourism of South East Asia.

So the whole scandal to me falls down to, how do the decent folks- Catholic, Baptist, C of E, Jewish, Muslim, atheist, whatever- combine without creating a new organisation with the power structures that created the abuse in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 02:03 PM

Posted to the other thread by mistake!

"Just been reading that studies have found, people of "homosexual orientation" make up between 20 and 50 percent of the priesthood.

Given the very high volume of homosexual assaults(not paedophelia, paedophelia is in fact quite rare in the Church)do you not think that this represents a link between male homosexuality and the abuse of post pubescent teenagers and young adults.

Let the perpetrators be brought to justice....find out the truth about the sexual behaviour of priests.

The cover up was a separate crime which should also be investigated, but even if the pope was forced to resign, the abuse of youths would continue until a proper balance of sexual orientation is struck among priests.

The longer I live, the more I become convinced that homosexual practice and the abuse pubescent boys is linked.

Scrap the rule and ordain married heterosexual priests....the abuse will fall sharply."

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 11:37 AM

If there were indeed a Jesus, Peter and all the others and IF they had the divine nature attributed to them, (there is, after all, a difference of opinion about all that), what I know about the legends suggests that 'true belief' in what began as a simple man with strong powers and empathy for other, does not require huge cathedrals, an enormous hierarchy, an entire city-state owned and administered for propagation of the faith, and a set of rules and a celibate priesthood to oversee those rules.

It seems obvious to me and many others that the current problems are a direct result of too much money, power and structure striving to retain all those trappings FOR the basic purpose of just having them, no matter what the basic message is supposed to be.

We see the same type of "close ranks and hide scandals" in police forces, the military and various political and corporate organizations. That used to be easier before all the modern technology made 'connecting the dots' and reporting abuses easier for both the abused and the investigators.

The church will need to EITHER adapt and clean house or face being broken up into smaller, independent groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 07:31 AM

A small minority, but powerful. And that's the underlying problem. Because We Can.

Without a hierarchical power structure (which in Ireland extended right down to the local priests) the situation would not have become so bad. People simply did not dare question, or cross, the Church. Power did what power always eventually does.

> I believe in the gifts that Jesus Christ gave us and it is not important which denomination we belong to.

HEAR, HEAR. Well spoken, and I could not agree more. But it will be small comfort to Rome.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: banjoman
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 06:30 AM

As a Catholic of almost 67 years and having survived an education by those vindictive and morrally depraved Christian Brothers, I have thought long & hard about my faith. My conclusion is that it has nothing to do with the Vatican or anything else within organised religion. The reason that I still go to Mass is because I believe in the gifts that Jesus Christ gave us and it is not important which denomination we belong to. Having said that, I have great respect for those hard working priests and laity who continue behind the scenes to provide support and counselling for so many, including those who have been victims of abuse. Remember that it is a small minority (perhaps inclding Pope Benedict) who are bringing the church and religion in general into disrepute.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 06:30 PM

MG, I'm not going to accuse you of sin, but don't you think it's a omission for YOU not to verify this story before making accusations?

Its OK, Bee- Mary just forgot to put her tinfoil hat on, again.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 05:28 PM

"Our goal is to help get the Catholic Church to be more like Jesus."

As a person interested in living Spirituality and indeed Christianity, it sounds fairly sensible to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 05:20 PM

An interesting idea - Vatican III

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 05:06 PM

Apparently the church is talking about introducing child protection schemes world-wide based on those in operation within the Catholic Church in England and Wales. Any bets on the next pope being English? How'll that go down in Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Lox
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:49 PM

I remember watching a fly on the wall documentary about a group of teenagers, who were taken to south africa by their social workers for the adventure of a lifetime, in which they would work with animals on a game reserve.

Nearly all the kids in question had had traumatic early childhoods and were 'troublemakers' back home in the inner city. The idea was to get them out of the box so they could have a chance to see it from a different angle.

For most of the kids this was a lifechanging experience, and many went on to pursue their hopes and aspirations and developed careers.

But there was one girl who was simply unable to benefit from the opportunity. She was unable to compare herself with the local people, who had it much tougher but were able to be considerate, optimistic and co-operate with each other. She was also unable to operate within the boundaries that were set by the group leaders, and her way of dealing with it was to throw tantrums.

She was warned very clearly that if her behaviour didn't change that she would be sedated, bound, and put on a flight back to the UK where she would then be released ... back into the wild ... as it were ...


She sadly couldn't help herself though, and she ended up throwing yet another unreasonable wobbly, in response to which the group followed through with their warning, and restrained her, bound her, sedated her and put her on a plane.

Se had not been violent, but her behaviour was simply unmanageable using other means, and they could not afford to allow her to blackmail them with bad behaviour.


So sometimes young people are bound by their carers when there is no other alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: beeliner
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:33 PM

We cannot ignore a pope who has assisted in the aftermath at least of tying boys up in a rectory. Do you understand?

We are guilty of a serious sin of ommission if we ignore.

MG, I'm not going to accuse you of sin, but don't you think it's a omission for YOU not to verify this story before making accusations?

Reports of the incident(s) are sketchy. My understanding is that the priest was tried - by civil authorities - and sentenced to three months probation.

That seems pretty lenient for tying little boys up, a charge that could amount to kidnapping and a life sentence.

That the priest did SOMETHING he should not have done is farily certain. I'd like to know more about what really happened. Wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:10 PM

Oh, cross posted there!

I'll walk a mile in the shoes of social services, only when I've been properly trained to do so. We have social services so that people properly experienced can make the best choices for the care of "deranged" people.

Otherwise, we'd all still have secret "Mad Aunts" (brothers/nieces/wives etc.) locked up in the attic or basement.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:05 PM

Gnu, sorry - I imagine that you didn't know the details of the case and that's where your posts were coming from? Or maybe you don't believe them? But otherwise, it's a very iffy idea to me to tie up children, however "rebellious" they might be. I can't run with that, at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: gnu
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:02 PM

Oh? I don't recall that part about the sexual assault being in the first post.

So, I think I will leave youse all to your imaginations and simply say that my posts are factual and give opinions and food for thought. If you don't want to think, have fun with it.

BTW... social services takes deranged people to the proper medical authorities and facilities where they are "tied up" if required, so that you don't have to take any responsibility for your pontification.

Walk a mile... walk a mile before you cast stones.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:54 PM

The children in question were tied up by the Priest, prior to being sexually assaulted by him.

Otherwise, in answer to your question, I'd ask social services for assistance rather than tying up anyone - unless my life depended on it - which is highly unlikely in the instance of a child much smaller than me.

I do know it was a method of restraint much abused by bad patents in the old days. I have older friends who recall being tied to their cots while their parents went out to party for the evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: gnu
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:46 PM

CS... I wish we all lived in your perfect world. Tell me, how would you deal with with a violent individual you were charged with?

Seriously... own up and tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:41 PM

I see Gnu... You do come out with some weird shit man.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: gnu
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:33 PM

Really? Who said the man in the frock was buggering you to begin with?

You all should really back up and think this through.

If you were placed in charge of 50 or 100 or more children, some of which were abandoned because the parents could NOT manage their behaviour for whatever reason, how would you deal with them?

Would YOU drug them or beat them?

Good lord. Are you all so insulated and pure that you have never heard that some human beings must be retrained to prevent injury to others or to themselves?

If that is a crime I expect you to open up your home to such people. Take in an elderly dimentia patient and provide 24 hour supervision so they don't wander off into the cold in the middle of the night.

Take in a child that needs the same.

The RC church does. And, if they HAVE to be restrained, it's done.

Uncharacteristic? No. Truthful.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:25 PM

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/page/3/

Scroll down about 2/3 of page and it should be there. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:20 PM

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/04/the-third-strike.html#more

This is by Andrew Sullivan.

Please read every word of this and please write to Andrew Sullivan, Bill O'Reilly and Maureen Dowd, as well as your local newspapers. CC the bishops but don't bother writing directly to them..or do if you want.

Especially if you are Catholic. And if you were for one minute, you still are, so don't worry about your status in the church. It can't be worse than the pope's.

Somewhere in Andrews's blog is a picture in the styule of a holy card of a little altar boy. FInd it and weep. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Lox
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:55 PM

I must say I find Gnu's comments puzzling and uncharacteristic.

There are numerous ways of handling misbehaving children that don't involve ropes.


However, the catholic church is made up of over a billion people, and less than 1% of them have any links with abuse, be they abusers or abused.

The church is only going to collapse in the minds of those who want it to.

the overwhelming majority of catholics will remain faithful.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:44 PM

Are you saying that these err "little angels" as you put it, were being restrained for the purpose of preventing them from being "violent [&] rebellious"? Well I'd imagine that you'd be violent & rebellious if a man in a frock was buggering you.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:38 PM

What on earth was that about?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: gnu
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:25 PM

Tying young children (or the elderly or anyone) up is a crime? If they are out of control, what do you do? Sedate them with drugs? Beat them until they get in line like breaking a bronco? Go walk around the psych ward at your local hospital and tell me you want all the restrained people set free. Tell me you want violent rebellious children and teenagers or anyone to be allowed free reign without consequences.

Of course, maybe these little angels were set upon by a closely knit society of deviants which exist in the RC church and are directed by the pope... maybe they have a secret handshake... and have a protocol for taking in these little angels and feeding and clothing them and educating them so they can subject them to nefarious sexual degradation.

Quite a conspiracy that may exist, eh?