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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:51 PM I said Pardon. Perhaps that's not clear. "I'm sorry I called you an idiot." Yes it is my opinion, as is everything else I say here. Same for you, mutatis mutandis. And everybody here. Thanks for reminding us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM Mousethief, that is your opinion, but please refrain from flaming people who do not agree with your viewpoint. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM Now this may just be a slip of the tongue, but it's being interpreted by the media here as a deliberate and orchestrated ploy to emphasise the foreignness of BP. I'd say that's a deliberate and orchestrated ploy by your media. People who remember when BP meant "British Petroleum", and who were unaware of the fact it had changed its name (I wasn't aware of that -- I don't follow megaconglomerates very closely), I think can be forgiven. It's like KFC. "Everybody knows" it stands for "Kentucky Fried Chicken" but it no longer does so. But that fact hasn't exactly been shouted from the rooftops. I found it on an obscure blog. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Howard Jones Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:39 PM Ordinary Americans may not identify BP as a British company. However Obama and some other politicians have been referring to it as "British Petroleum", which the company has not been known as for many years. Now this may just be a slip of the tongue, but it's being interpreted by the media here as a deliberate and orchestrated ploy to emphasise the foreignness of BP. It also appears that a lot of American politicians are adopting tough attitudes, with talk about "kicking ass", in order to get BP to do what it has already agreed it will do. All this posturing is being regarded as the politicians wanting to be seen to be defending American interests against nasty foreigners. Since BP is still viewed here as a leading British company, this is seen as anti-British. It's a view about American politicians, not the American people as a whole, but there's concern that it will begin to rub off on them if the politicians keep repeating it. It may not be an accurate interpretation of events, but it's how it's being reported here - the American media may have a different interpretation, I don't know. The reality of course is that despite its history and London base it is a multinational company and as much American as it is British. The reality also is that millions of American as well as British citizens are indirect shareholders in BP via their pension funds and other investments. That's you and me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:39 PM Pardon. Then, what you have said is idiotic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:36 PM I beg your pardon Mousethief. Do not start flaming me. I have not insulted any mudcatter posters including you, and |I do not accept that from you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM I am blaming America for letting BP get itself into this situation. Then you're an idiot. BP is a big boy, it should be able to police itself at least to the extent of following all the laws and industry-wide safety procedures. That they did not is not America's fault. They need to take responsibility for their own actions, not pawn it off on the regulatory agencies etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:30 PM L EJ I am blaming America for letting BP get itself into this situation. I just can't stand that spineless Obama blaming BP when he knows his own country is just as much at fault. He is very good at talking the talk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Greg F. Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM Anyone who wants to sign up for laissez faire capitalism can get in line behind Sarah Palin, Rand Paul, and Rush Limbaugh, Greg. [NB: Add Ayan Rand to your list.And most of the Republican party.] You Betcha! and millions have, despite conclusive evidence that ot's a crock. God Help America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Lonesome EJ Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:23 PM made sure BP wasn't able to get into this situation in the first place the poor performance of our regulatory agencies aside, a company that continues to act in criminal negligence is like a serial killer whose defense is "it's not my fault! Why didnt you stop me?" The fact is, deep ocean oilwell drilling is a huge risk, and a company undertaking it should provide a series of failsafe backup procedures in the event of disaster. There should also be a contingency plan to eliminate the threat, should all of the failsafes fail. Here, BP was allowed to undertake a project for which they didn't possess the technology for a repair. And even though they don't, they unfortunately still hold the best resources with potential for a solution. To condemn Obama for not fixing the blown well, or for his criticism of BP for undertaking a disastrous gamble, is ridiculous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:23 PM I think it's time we pulled out of all the war conflict's that you yanks have led us into, due to our own arsole creeping PM's. I think it's time that we (Americans) pulled out of the war conflicts. Fucking George Bush. And spineless Obama to keep us there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Les from Hull Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM Actually BP is not a British Company. The B does not stand for British any more, it stands for B - the name was changed from British Petroleum a few years ago. There are probably as many American investors in the company as there are British. It is a multi-national oil company that has its origins in Britain the same way that Royal Dutch Shell originated in the Netherlands. It is considered the 5th biggest company in the World. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM Not that bothered Ebbie. Just fed up of the yanks, ducking the flack and blaming BP 100% and not facing up to their own cock ups. I think it's time our Prime Minister's stopped arsole creeping your President's. I personally am very sorry to see such a disaster and my heartfelt thoughts are with all the good honest people who are suffering over there. I think it's time we pulled out of all the war conflict's that you yanks have led us into, due to our own arsole creeping PM's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Howard Jones Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM Ebbie, I believe there are some some offences relating to business practices where the law differs. A celebrated case here involved three businessmen involved in the Enron situation. Despite the fact that their alleged offence was committed in the UK against a British company, they were successfully extradited to the US where they were convicted. I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of their conviction, but their publicity campaign highlighted the imbalance in extradition arrangements between the two countries. They were convicted of "wire fraud", in which the use of electronic communications adds to the severity of the sentence. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't believe a similar distinction applies in English law - it would be treated simply as fraud, with all the circumstances having a bearing on the sentence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM BP are obviously to blame but so is America. True. The deregulation (and de-facto deregulation by way of not enforcing those regulations that still do exist) of the Reagan Era (which Obama and Co., alas, are slow to overturn) (not that the Repuglicans have ANY right to complain about that!) is coming home to roost in the last 3 years. And why not? That's laissez-faire capitalism at its best. "The Magic Of The Market" at work. "The Market" is vastly overrated. "The Market" gave us the global financial meltdown of October 2008. Regulate the shit out of it. Business should work for people. That's why the governments allow corporations to exist. Or should be. What we are saying is that BP has stated very clearly, right from the start, that its intention is to pay for the lot. Well, they agreed to pay for all legitimate claims, "legitimate" being a weasel word which one can fully expect to be used to dodge out of claims that any number of observers might think are "legitimate". |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ebbie Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:08 PM I'm sure your opinion makes him sad, Artur. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:03 PM America should have made sure that BP complied to the very strict requirements needed to run this sort of operation. They didn't and we now have this mess. BP are obviously to blame but so is America. Stop blaming BP as if its all their fault Obama and start to accept that if your previous bumbling President's had done their job properly and made sure BP wasn't able to get into this situation in the first place, it wouldn't have happened. You have lost all respect from me Mr Obama. You are scoring cheap points against a foreign company who is working in your territory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:31 PM The oil is now heading for my beach here in North Carolina. After it leaves my beautiful state, it will be heading east, towards the UK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Lonesome EJ Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:30 PM Anyone who wants to sign up for laissez faire capitalism can get in line behind Sarah Palin, Rand Paul, and Rush Limbaugh, Greg. That concept has been shown to be the province of thieves and liars for quite some time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Greg F. Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM my fear is that BP will pay its stockholders, fold its tents, and declare itself insolvent and incapable of further action on the colossal mess it has created. And why not? That's laissez-faire capitalism at its best. "The Magic Of The Market" at work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Lonesome EJ Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:51 AM BP has been found guilty of numerous safety and environmental violations over the past decade, has been found guilty of criminal violations and forced to pay millions in fines, judgments, and reparations. As a company, it has shown willingness to play fast and loose with even its own safety standards in order to minimize down time and maximize profitability. The fact that this behavior was tolerated for as long as it has been is as much an impeachment of the regulating agencies in the United States as it is of BP. I frankly don't give a damn if B stands for British or Beneficial or Bastardly. As for dividends, my fear is that BP will pay its stockholders, fold its tents, and declare itself insolvent and incapable of further action on the colossal mess it has created. Has the company proven itself worthy of our trust in any other way? And if all of this ruffles some Brit feathers for some reason, maybe you'll feel differently if the sludge starts rolling up on the Isle of Wight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Alice Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM All the fault of "foreigners"??? I think you should know most people in the US have seen tv ads for many years that say "BP Beyond Petroleum". Most people don't even know that BP is British. They are not upset because there is another country involved.... it is typical these days with oil drilling for oil projects to be multinational. They are upset because IT HAPPENED and was PREVENTABLE and the disaster plan was INADEQUATE. You are over reacting to something being promoted in your news there to make you feel on the defensive as a country. It truly is not what is happening over here. There is no attack on Britain here. Alice |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ebbie Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:07 AM Don T, FWIW, Q is Canadian. "For example, Britons are being extradited to the US (sometimes for offences which are not illegal here) without the protection of our own courts under a treaty intended for terrorists which the US has refused to ratify, with the effect that US citizens can't be extradited to the UK on similar terms." Question for Howard Jones: What offenses would that be? I truly don't know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Howard Jones Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:28 AM I don't think anyone's suggesting BP should duck its obligations. It's the way US politicians appear to trying to give the impression that it's all the fault of foreigners, and their grandstanding for electoral purposes which is objectionable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ed T Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM "In what way did the US dodge its obligations?" From: http://news.rediff.com/column/2010/jun/11/praful-bidwai-on-the-bhopal-gas-tragedy.htm "In such cases, the principle of corporate liability demands that owners are made to take full responsibility for all mishaps. This principle is rightly being applied to BP for the oil spill off the Louisiana coast in the US. President Barack Obama [ Images ] says he wants to 'kick ass' and 'make sure that they (BP) pay every single dime owed to the people along the Gulf Coast'. The liability principle should apply with even greater force to the much greater disaster in Bhopal. Violating the principle can only encourage corporations to behave irresponsibly, cut corners on safety, cheat on regulations and expose the public to avoidable harm. No civilised society can allow that." |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM This is worth a read. Hopefully it hasn't been posted already. http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/BP-CEO-John-Napier-Letter-To-President-Barack-Obama-Over-The-Oil-Spill-In-The-Gulf-O |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Richard Bridge Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:51 AM But moreover, if (and I say "if") it is true that BP directions did cause the original problem, when the US bigmouths were first jumping on the bandwagon that fact (if it be a fact) was not known, and the assumption that it was BP at fault not either of the US corporations was based on nothing more than prejudice. As for BP putting its hands up - you know the standard advice given to defendants before courts with the probity of Judge Jeffries, don't you? It will go easier on you if you admit your guilt (whether you are guilty or not). |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:26 AM Nobody is trying to defend BP in terms of its responsibility for clearing up the mess. What we are saying is that BP has stated very clearly, right from the start, that its intention is to pay for the lot. Q says "only $5000 dollars has been paid out",while we hear that BP has been paying out all small damage claims to affected fishermen and others who have suffered losses. By whose reckoning has the amount paid been only $5000? Who has paid for the hire of containment equipment, for the capping devices, for the services of all the organisations involved, and for the chemicals used to disperse the slicks? I suspect that the only part paid for (pro tem) by anyone other than BP is the shoreline cleaning, and BP have already promised to cover the cost of that. The accident has happened, and nobody can change that fact. BP is taking responsibility for dealing with the aftermath, and doing everything it can to mitigate the disaster. So what is it you US citizens are after?.......REVENGE? How do you gain by the destruction of the very organisation you are relying on to put things right? One comment from the BP interview made a considerable impression on me, and it was this:- ""When the well is plugged and the slicks are dispersed, then we (that is BP) will be spending months, maybe years dealing with the onshore and offshore damage. By that time, all the Media will have gone home"" I think that was fair comment. We will not see Media headlines about BPs efforts to repair the damage because the Media don't much care for good news, DO THEY? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Howard Jones Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:02 AM The story as it's being reported here is that Obama and other US politicians are giving out the message that the US environment and US jobs have been endangered by a foreign company, and that they're doing so for electoral reasons. Some of our own politicians have taken the hook, others are being more measured in their response. It's probably true that for many here BP still means "British Petroleum" so it's taken as an attack on a British company, even if that's no longer really the case. It also has to be seen in a context where the US appears to view the "special relationship" purely in terms of its own advantage. For example, Britons are being extradited to the US (sometimes for offences which are not illegal here) without the protection of our own courts under a treaty intended for terrorists which the US has refused to ratify, with the effect that US citizens can't be extradited to the UK on similar terms. At the same time the US is happy to call on our help in Iraq and Afghanistan. So we may sometimes appear a bit defensive. Be that as it may, the latest call to stop BP paying dividends is the worst kind of political grandstanding, for these reasons: Firstly, if BP has the resources to pay for the clean-up and its other liabilities (and according to the papers here that's not in question) then whether or not it pays dividends is irrelevant On the other hand, if BP doesn't have sufficient resources, putting further pressure on its already battered share price and devaluing the company further won't help it to raise any additional cash needed Thirdly, who do these politicians think is going to be affected by withholding the dividend? Apart from the effect on share price (which helps no one), it won't be the business, which will be holding on to a large sum of cash. Some of the executives may see their share price linked bonuses fall, but rest assured they won't be going short. No, the people who will be affected will be all those people in the UK and the US who have pension funds, life insurance, investment funds, etc, invested in BP - in other words, you and me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Lonesome EJ Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:45 AM I find it difficult to conceive of the degree of masochism required to step out in a thread like this and defend BP...and you're usually such a clear-thinking fellow, Richard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ebbie Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:15 AM I, of course, remember the Bhopal catastrophe but this sentence in that link struck me: "The court levied the maximum penalties available under Indian law on the charges before it — that of criminal negligence." In what way did the US dodge its obligations? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: ichMael Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:13 PM This whole event has been a scam. Goldman Sachs (huge bank) sold all their BP stock just before the "accident." Goldman Sachs sold $250 million of BP stock before spill Goldman Sachs knew what was coming, same as AB Brown (German bank) knew what was coming in the days before 9/11. Buzzy Krongard (#3 at the CIA) used to work for Brown, and Brown miraculously bought a record number of put options against United and American airlines just before the attacks. Hundreds of aviation stocks to choose from, and they bet against those two. Suppressed Details of Criminal Insider Trading Lead Directly into the CIA's High So this is another act of government-sponsored terrorism. But who benefits? At first glance it seems that Obama's the loser--stumbling around looking ineffective--but don't forget that he's pushing "green" technology. You know...in this age of nuclear power he wants to force America back to medieval windmill technology and such. And he just got refuted at the Copenhagen Conference, so what's a ruthless genocidalist to do? Blow a well in the Gulf of Mexico and then stumble around like it's all a big mystery to him. And meanwhile, the damage gets uglier and uglier. After this, America will be easy to sell on the notion that we need that genocidalist ethanol, and thousand-year-old windmills instead of oil. This whole thing is a sham. A show. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:06 PM Nonsense, mousethief. British Industrialists began with the Industrial Revolution and as early as the British East India Company. A few in the 19th c. were William Forster, Robert Peel, Cecil Rhodes, Richard Awkright, William Armstrong, Richard Young, etc., etc., ...... They taught people such as Carnegie in the States. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:37 PM True indeed to say that US corporations taught people like BP all they know about modern business practices. And they lapped it up like milk. Corruption corrupts. News at 11. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:02 PM BP has paid out only $5000 on claims processed so far- billions are necessary to clean up their mess, pay for lost business and wages of the many now unemployed as a result, and restore wetlands and the organisms that inhabit them and the Gulf waters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:46 PM ""BP had better start paying those bills for compensation that are piling up or it may face more than unkind words."" There was an interview on BBC TV about ten days ago in which we were told that BP was already paying out on every damage claim presented, and were doing so in 48 hours, rather than the 45 days which is the norm in the USA. Thet had already stated several times that they had every intention of paying the whole bill for the clear-up (in fact they said so long before the US government started this high profile vote saving attack on BP). Now, I hold no brief for any company which puts profit ahead of safety, and notwithstanding any arguments as to degrees of responsibility, BP is, and has accepted that it is, ultimately responsible for clearing up the mess. I fail to see, however, the benefits (given that they are footing the total bill) of slagging them off and threatening criminal prosecutions, and seizure of assets, as a result of which 40 percent of the company's value has been wiped out. I know that things are done differently in the US of A, but I'd love to know how driving the company out of business will help to provide the billions needed for the job. Don't you think it might be smarter to keep the smart mouths shut, and let them get on with it. Incidentally, it has to be said that British companies were much more ethically operated up until the late 1950s when American business influences first made themselves felt over here. True indeed to say that US corporations taught people like BP all they know about modern business practices. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:59 PM When there is human and environmental damage in other countries, how do USA companies measure up for care and compensation? Nobody said US companies were all sweetness and light, so this is a total non sequitur. Megacorporations which flout safety regulations and act recklessly in their pursuit of the almighty dollar/yen/pound/euro are everywhere despised. Trying to get BP off the hook because it's a British company is also despicable. They fucked up, they can take their lumps, whether their headquarters is on the Thames or the Sea of Tranquility. This is so not a nationalist issue. I'm starting to think the Brits are just horribly insecure in their feelings about their own country, and any criticism -- even if it's not against Britain but against a company that used to have "British" in its name -- feeds the fires of their inferiority complex. How else to explain this thread? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM BP had better start paying those bills for compensation that are piling up or it may face more than unkind words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Alice Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:00 PM Yes, I think of Bhopal, India, and Union Carbide, too, the largest industrial disaster so far in the world. My point is, no matter what company owns the responsibility, a disaster is a disaster no matter where it happens in the world. Corporations are responsible for what they do and don't do when they cause a disaster. No matter where they are based or where it happens, corporations like Union Carbide, BP, DOW Chemical, Siemens, EXXON, BSAF, mining companies in China, the US... you get my point. We should all be outraged when negligence causes industrial disasters anywhere in the world. Alice |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil From: Stringsinger Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM B.P. is a "country" unto itself. Tony Hayward belongs in jail. This has nothing to do with Britain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,Rev. Goose 'Goof' Gander (retired) Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM Funny how a little oil spill can transform a modern liberal into an 18th-century Tory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ed T Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM When there is human and environmental damage in other countries, how do USA companies measure up for care and compensation? http://thechronicleherald.ca/Editorial/1186571.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ebbie Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM Oh, Alice, that is so different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Alice Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:32 PM So.... if a USA oil company drilled a well just off a sensitive wildlife and fishery habitat of Britain and they did not have a realistic disaster plan or follow safety checks, a major oil leak onto shore would result in a response from the UK of... ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Richard Bridge Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM While it grieves me to agree with Boris (Bloody Stupid) Johnson, the conservative mayor of London, he is now saying that the anti British nature of US rhetoric on the spill is a matter for concern, and so are other politicians. Well, I suppose better late than never. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Donuel Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:10 PM There are voices in UK that now openly decree on BBC that the US goverment is a bigot when it comes to relations with big corporations like BP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil From: GUEST,Rev. Goose 'Goof' Gander (retired) Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:11 PM BP Response Plan Severely Flawed Surprise! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: kendall Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:21 PM Greg F it is not funny in the humorous sense, it is ironic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Donuel Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:10 PM Lets be civil. Take Tony and give him a nice beach house right in the middle of the spill. Enforce his stay with house arrest. Make sure the air conditioner is defective. Give him estimates on how good the air conditioner is and how optimistic we are at how soon it will be repaired. Make sure all his food and water come from the Gulf area. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM Where are the vigilantes of yesteryear? Coat Tony Hayward in tar and ride him on a rail into Gulf oil spill- Well, it's a thought. |
