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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Jun 10 - 03:55 PM I wish to apologise for identifying the crew as BP employees; nine of those killed were Transocean employees including the driller and toolpush. Two were employees of M-I-SWACO, a company that says it manages risks of fluids-related issues and safeguards completion, among other jobs. They mention that they work at deepwarer solutions. Unsworn testimony to media specifically mention a number of BP faults in procedure and prior damage to the BOP, cementing procedures directed by BP and footing of the well; it will reappear as sworn testimony in government reports and various legal actions. Anadarko, a partner (25%) in the well, condemned BP on the well yesterday. The BP report will apologise for the incident, but will absolve them of any fault in procedures. What else would one expect them to do? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don Firth Date: 19 Jun 10 - 02:20 PM Teribus, the information you have posted is 180 degrees out from all the evidence and reports of those who were there at the time. Documentation? I can bury you in it if you wish. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 19 Jun 10 - 01:30 PM The current crop of Rethuglickin's make everything a big political fight. It's all they know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Jun 10 - 01:00 PM So, it's going to become a big political fight- or it is already. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 19 Jun 10 - 12:01 PM If the majority do remove him from his post as minority leader on the Energy etc. committee, then some of the wind will be taken out of the Democrats' sails. Otherwise it's a sure sign (so the advertising will say, hopefully) that the GOP in general agrees with him. "Don't vote the Republicans into a majority in the House, or this man will be the head of the Energy etc. committee. Can we really afford another Deepwater Horizon?" It won't change the votes of the party faithful, but it could move the swing voters away from the BP-ass-licking Repuglickin's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Greg F. Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM Both the Democrats and the Republicans made asses of themselves in that hearing...feel they have license to beat up on witnesses... Jesus H Christ- Douggie's really overtopped the usual degree of inanity & stupididy- hard to believe, byut true! Poor, poor pitiful BP - ??? Right. the remarks by Barton et al go against majority opinion. The remarks by Barton et. al. defy reason and common sense. Only shows the degree to which the Republicans will act like complete assholes to oppose anything the Obama administration does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Teribus Date: 19 Jun 10 - 08:20 AM Teribus is wrong- the drilling crew was entirely BP crew and supervised by BP employees. Transocean owned and cared for the rig, but the drilling program was entirely BP's. - Q Now let me see Q, the Deepwater Horizon suffered a blow-out didn't it, in which case the gas under tremendous pressure would have torn up the drill string and the explosion would have been centred on the drill-floor of the rig. A question for you. How many BP personnel were killed? I would have expected most of the 11 would have been BP employees if what you said was true (which it isn't). Another question for you Q: If the drilling crew were entirely BP, why was it that Transocean organised a memorial service for those killed? The Deepwater Horizon was not drilling at the time the blow-out happened. Halliburton were cementing casing and plugging the well for temporary abandonment. This accident did not happen because anyone told anybody else to "drill faster". This accident did not happen because of any decision to use a head of seawater instead of a head of drilling mud to hold the pressure during cementation of the casing. The accident happened because the BOP Failed, no-one at present knows how or why it failed. It will be quite some time before we do know. Simple question for anyone who has watched the leak. Is the oil leaking out of the BOP, or out of the seabed around it? From what I have seen it is leaking from the BOP, which means people that the well casing and the cement job to set that was good. While BP may have planned the drilling programme to be followed that was complete, and had been completed without incident. Transocean was responsible for actually carrying out the drilling operation, it was their rig and they supplied the manpower to operate it. Anybody doubts that just look up the Transocean web-site and take a look at their job opportunities pages (To work in the US GOM you have to be American basically and it tells you that). The last Semi-Submersible Drilling Rig that BP ever operated was the Sea Gem back in the early 1970's. IF there was any dispute about drilling it is Transocean who have the final say NOT BP (As stated previously you may sit in a taxi and order the driver to speed up or run a red light, if he gets stopped and issued with a ticket, or has an accident it is the driver of the taxi who is at fault not the passenger). Cameron supplied the BOP, this may have been leased (probably was considering the depth) to BP but it would be down to a combination of Cameron and Transocean to maintain and operate it. Halliburton were cementing the casing, and as such they would have control of the drill-floor during that operation, it would Halliburton specialists who were directing what Transocean drilling crews were doing. I would love to see this order from BP for workers not to wear protective clothing, but I doubt if any evidence of such an instruction will ever appear. I take it Guest from Sanity that the 1500psi normal capping pressure you mentioned was a "down-hole" over pressure? and the others actual guage pressures? I am with RB, Howard, Don T and others on this, BP right from the outset stated clearly that they regarded themselves as being responsible and that they fully intended to pay for all damage, losses and clean up costs. Barack Obama then waded in and started political grandstanding. You never know, he might even be able to lay off some of the Hurricane Katrina clean up and recovery costs costs onto BP as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:21 PM At this point, quibbling about whose fault it was, is not very productive. However, there is fault for not cleaning the thing up, and closing it....and the figured are much higher than reported, on here. Also, the pipe is a 20" diameter pipe, two inches thick. One half of the pipe is reported to have worn away. Crude oil has particulates and aggregates in it. When the Alaskan pipeline was shut down for repairs, it was worn down, to 1/2 its thickness. It took 30 years to do that...this one took only less than two months! Also, 14% toxicity, in the air, with these toxins is fatal...we are at 8%, at present...which is making people sick(head aches, nausea, dizziness etc etc. for the benefit of my Mudcat buddies, and (name callers), if you have friends or relatives near the area, you might give them a buzz, and tell them to calmly, and thoughtfully, get the hell away from there! I've got more...but not for stupid arguments. Just for the sake of a side note, I think the President has not been very Presidential about this, and looks way worse than Bush, during Katrina!...and has foolishly politicized this, instead of doing everything he could/can to get it stopped! The longer he sits on his hands, and "not wasting a crisis", the wider the hole gets! When they drill for oil, they often pump water into the void, as not to cause a collapse, from the umbrage. This is not being done, of course, which is going to be of another concern. Also, the gasses, are a lot more than methane, as being reported! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 18 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM I would say characterizing people who are trying to get out important information about what BP is still doing wrong as engaging in a "barrage of vituperation" is the ad hominem that is in operation here, Don. If we don't do it, it will get swept under the rug, which is precisely what BP is trying to ensure happens. As I've said at least twice now, all of BP's decisions since the blowout have been designed specifically to mitigate liability rather than to mitigate harm, and they are causing a lot more harm in the process. What part of "they are still causing harm" are you unable to understand? Do you really not give a shit that BP are ruining people's health for no reason other than to mitigate their liability? Do you really not give a shit that they are right now causing immense harm to the ecology of the Gulf of Mexico for no reason other than to mitigate their liability? Do you really think that shutting up is the right thing to do while they are causing so much death and destruction for no reason other than to protect their corporate bottom line? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 18 Jun 10 - 06:03 PM ""Don, it sounds like you are more concerned about your portfolio than you are about the lives of millions of people. Shame on you."" God Carol, when you decide to be obtuse you really make a good job of it. First of all I have precisely zero shares in any company. My pension won't run to it. So I'm afraid that little ad hominem was a waste of your time. Secondly, I have never said that BP should get away with not paying every last penny of the damage. I have simply questioned whether it makes sense to keep up a barrage of vituperation which may result in you, and other US taxpayers having to pick up the tab if BP goes under. It isn't smart, and it isn't practical. That is not support for BP (I couldn't care less if they fold tomorrow), but you should care, because if they fold, you get zilch out of them. Now do you finally understand what I've spent a lot of time and energy trying to get across to you? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: DougR Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:57 PM Both the Democrats and the Republicans made asses of themselves in that hearing. I don't know why congressional committees feel they have license to beat up on witnesses appearing before them. Well, yes, I guess I do. They want to show the folks back home how tough they are. None of them take into account that they work for us, not us for them! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM The Democrats need to scream this from the rooftops. This could save them in the mid-term elections. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM The Republicans are continuing their program of opposing anything Obama does. This tactic may backfire- the remarks by Barton et al go against majority opinion. They are definitely not the brightest fireflies in the bayou. In the other thread I have outlined BP's term payout of the $20 billion, the decision to sell $10 billion of non-core assets, assignment of Robert Dudley to replace Tony Hayward in oil spill operations, and speculation that their Russian assets are to be put on sale. -All items from BBC News. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don Firth Date: 18 Jun 10 - 04:25 PM When the clock radio went off this morning with the news, there was a sound clip of someone, either an elected official or an oil company executive having a wall-eyed fit and ricocheting off the walls about Obama's declaring a six-month moratorium on off-shore drilling, at least until we get this business sorted out. The screamer was howling that the moratorium would destroy the oil industry and ruin the American economy. Some of the things he said about Obama reminded me of our paranoid-schizophrenic friend, ichMael. I didn't get who it was, because the newscast moved on to the next story. Then, in this morning's e-mail, I get this: When BP CEO Tony Hayward testified before Congress this morning, many expected to hear him apologize for the disaster his company has caused. Instead, GOP Congressman Joe Barton was the one saying he was sorry -- to BP.Excuse me!!!??? What the hell??? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM On the subject of the cleanup |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 10:10 PM So now you are saying "let's attack them some more, and drive the price back down again". And how much did it rise? I'd suspect nowhere near a significant amount, though I haven't seen the latest figures. Sometimes you just have to say "the milk is spilt. Let's concentrate on mopping it up, and worry about blame and punishment afterwards". Don, it sounds like you are more concerned about your portfolio than you are about the lives of millions of people. Shame on you. Do you think we should just bend over and take it up the ass just to protect your assets? Because that's precisely what is happening right now. Speaking out means we stand up for our rights and for the environment. Doing what you suggest may help your portfolio, but it doesn't help any of the people in this country who are being fucked over by BP, or the environment, either. And in case your attitude is, "well, hell, why should I care, that's so far away from me", my answer is, don't bet on it. The oil is going to be heading your way after it's finished with my state. Perhaps you'll be singing a different tune then, when you find out just how much help the people in your country get from BP after you are awash in oil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:43 PM ""Hey gnu - a few days ago, I got four stitches in my thumb. The price tag was more than $500. What do you think about that?"" So now you are saying "let's attack them some more, and drive the price back down again". And how much did it rise? I'd suspect nowhere near a significant amount, though I haven't seen the latest figures. Sometimes you just have to say "the milk is spilt. Let's concentrate on mopping it up, and worry about blame and punishment afterwards". Don T |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM $20 billion in escrow is a start; the cost, of course, will be considerably more. The courts will be busy with claims for years to come. After hitting a high of 650 pence near the end of March, it was about 360 pence today, a little improvement over a low of 337p yesterday; funds and individuals with BP stock have taken a damaging blow. ($32 approx. NY Ex, I haven't checked today) MMS shares the blame by not enforcing proper procedures; it's management was badly corrupted and/or incompetent. I agree with Bobert; take what is possible. Of course the rest of us will lose some liquidity over the coming years as a result. Drive BP into near bankruptcy, and Chevron, Sinopec or someone else will take over the company; then they will claim the damages are "not my problem" and suits would become impossible. I didn't hear all of the questions (not that it mattered, Tony only came up with a stock answer that the investigation was not complete) but I didn't hear anyone question his record- in his BP bio it is stated that he saved BP some $4 billion. Some emphasis could have been put on the charge that he is responsible for the cost-cutting and hence inadequate procedures in drilling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:25 PM Having said that, nobody with any sense expects BP to even come close to making anything right. As I said before, all of their decisions have been for the purpose of mitigating liability, not harm, and all of them have increased the harm that has been inflicted rather than mitigating it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:23 PM Since BP is working to control the spill, and to repair the damage, and since it has stated clearly (even before you and your Pres started jumping up and down) that it would take responsibility and pay for all the work needed to put things right, and since furthermore, it has set aside twenty billion dollars for the purpose, tell me what is the reason for driving its share values down, and possibly bankrupting the company, if not to eliminate competition for the benefit of the other oil companies, which just happen to be American owned? Obama's little bit of theater was designed to help BP get it's share prices back up again, and it worked. So what are you complaining about? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Bobert Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:20 PM I'm kinda with Don on this one... What has happened has happened... The blame will eventually land where it belongs... Right now???... I don't see any logic in buryin' BP and then having taxpayers pick up the tab... A little patience will get US alot more than pounding away... (But, Boberdz... Pounding away will get more votes...) Great... Will votes reimburse the poor shmuck who is makin' $3000 a month payments on a boat he can't take out into the Gulf to earn a living??? No, votes don't mean squat right now... What we need is BP's money and future stability so the checks come in... b~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Alice Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:04 PM BP's shares dropping is a result of the actions of BP! The shares didn't drop because people are upset about the disaster, they dropped because BP didn't prevent the disaster from happening! What do you think should have been done... the explosion kept secret? No reporting? No press coverage? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 PM ""We need to spend more time criticizing BP, not less. We need to get the truth out about what they are doing, which they are doing their level best to cover up. The problem doesn't get corrected by turning our gulf into a military zone and covering up the evidence. It is corrected by ensuring that the truth gets out so we can make sure something like this never happens again. Personally I think the world would be a far better place without corporate criminals like BP."" You may well get your wish much sooner than you think Carol. I usually find myself agreeing with you, but in this case I think you, and a lot of others, are seriously awry. Are you not aware that every day, the criticism and vilification of BP by the USA, is reducing the value of the company. The shareholders of any company will only hold on to the shares if they see some likelihood of a return on their investment. With share prices in free fall and no dividend, there is every likelihood that BP will see massive dumping of shares onto the market, which will inevitably attract the attentions of asset strippers. Your assessment of the costs may well be accurate, in which case I would suggest that you need to stop kicking BP and get behind their efforts. You need, like it or not, both their expertise and their money, so it would seem sensible not to kill them off too soon. What do you think? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil From: Stringsinger Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:52 PM Tony Hayward belongs in jail for ruining America's coastline. He refuses to take responsibility for his actions. The hearings were a farce because he stonewalled all of the questions. We don't need big oil companies exploiting our needs and America does not need big oil addiction. We need electric cars, alternative energy if possible and a cessation of offshore deep water drilling immediately. BP has made a lot of money. They should pay it out to the people whose lives and livelihoods they have ruined. Americans should be held accountable for their gas guzzling S.U.V.s and the automobile industry is culpable here too in collusion with the gas and oil companies. Also, G.W. Bush is culpable for his collusion with the oil companies. He is responsible for the corruption of the MMS which didn't do its job. And this goes for all the sympathetic Libertarians who would like to dismantle the U.S. Government and limit regulation. Tony Hayward is Britain's shame (if Brits were really involved). BP as stated above is a trans-national company which is probably a country of its own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM ""Holy fucking shit. Do you have two brain cells to rub together?"" Yes I do! And I have asked this question twice before without response. Since BP is working to control the spill, and to repair the damage, and since it has stated clearly (even before you and your Pres started jumping up and down) that it would take responsibility and pay for all the work needed to put things right, and since furthermore, it has set aside twenty billion dollars for the purpose, tell me what is the reason for driving its share values down, and possibly bankrupting the company, if not to eliminate competition for the benefit of the other oil companies, which just happen to be American owned? A second question is this. How do those of you who are gloating over BP shares tumbling to $29 think that the cost of repairing the damage will be met when BP shares are worthless, and the company goes under? I'm really curious about your response to the above, because it seems to me that anybody who had even one brain cell would want to ensure BP remained capable of paying, and that just doesn't sem to be the case. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Bobert Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:39 PM I've been in a position where someone owes me a sizable piece of change and ya' kinda do have to waltz with them to a certain extent to get anything out of them... That's what Obama is doing here with BP... He's pounding them just enough so they don't quit on the deal, go banrupt and tell everyone to go screw themselves... It's a fine line... Pound too hard and get perhaps nothin'... Don't pound enough and get nothin'... If he get's the $20B before BP goes Chapter 11 then it will be a success... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:32 PM http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20100617/ARTICLE/6171090/2416?tc=ar BP decided on Wednesday to give $25 million to Gulf Coast researchers for oil spill studies, a fraction of the $500 million promised a month ago. The money -- a quarter of what scientists requested in Florida alone -- falls far short of what experts say they need now to study the effects of the oil that has been blasting into the Gulf of Mexico at a rate of more than 2 million gallons a day since April 20. BP, the company responsible for the spill, has no plans to release more money soon. Instead, over the next 10 years, the remaining $475 million will be funneled through a panel of six scientists appointed by BP, none of whom reside in the Gulf Coast region. Universities and research institutes from Texas to Florida have deployed sensing equipment, research ships and much of their staff -- oceanographers, chemists and marine biologists -- to the oil spill. Of the $25 million BP decided to give Wednesday, Florida scientists will receive $10 million. That amount barely allows scientists to continue emergency research that was patched together by diverting resources from other projects. The Florida Institute of Oceanography, a coalition of 20 research groups, with backing from Gov. Charlie Crist and congressional leaders, asked BP two weeks ago for $100 million. They need the money to pay for new sensing equipment to help track the spill, more lab gear to analyze water, sediments and animal and plant tissues and to hire more staff. They also wanted to take more research trips at sea, which could employ fishermen grounded by the spill. The research would help improve oil forecasts in the short term. And it would lay the foundation for studying the effects of the oil and dispersants on the food chain and the health of communities over the long term.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:33 PM Yep getting too involved. I will stop posting on this thread and apologise for flaming. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don Firth Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM So if we're going to start accusing people of bigotry here, let's take a good look, shall we? "You americans—" Now, that right there sounds like a bigot about to pop off. "— are just good at mouthing off when things don't go right for yo and very good at blaming everybody else." Every single American, Artie? And just who should be blamed, Artie? It was a BP executive, a bean-counter and desk-jockey who obviously knew diddly-squat about oil drilling, who complained that the drilling was taking too long and costing too much, and who insisted that the drilling crew speed up the process. The drilling crew warned him it would be dangerous to do so, but he insisted. What the drilling crew was afraid could happen is exactly what did happen! Then, the BP exec said, "I didn't know an oil well would do that!" Had he never seen an oil gusher before? What kind of oil man was he, anyway? As I said, a paper-pushing desk-jockey. Nobody is blaming the British people, Artie. So lighten up. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM Arthritis, on another thread I said several times that the United States is the biggest cause of problems in the world. And I stand by that. However, that doesn't excuse anything that BP is doing or has done. BP's history is just as full of devious and despicable things as is that of the US, starting with its theft of Iranian oil, and it's instigation of the US covert overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran. You guys really are no better than us, you're just a little bit more past your prime so you're not quite as dangerous as we are. You still have all of the same imperialistic impulses, though... just not the resources to back them up. So spare me your puffed up self-righteousness. We need to spend more time criticizing BP, not less. We need to get the truth out about what they are doing, which they are doing their level best to cover up. The problem doesn't get corrected by turning our gulf into a military zone and covering up the evidence. It is corrected by ensuring that the truth gets out so we can make sure something like this never happens again. Personally I think the world would be a far better place without corporate criminals like BP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:34 PM ...President Barack Obama reiterated his defense of oil giant BP after a White House meeting with the company�s CEO Tony Hayward and board chairman Carl-Henric Svanberg. After the meeting, Obama and BP announced the establishment of an independently operated escrow account, the Independent Claims Facility, funded by up to $20 billion paid out over the next four years. BP said it would delay dividend payouts over the remainder of the year estimated at $10 billion. Other details of the escrow account remain vague. The US media presented the meeting and announcement as a humbling of BP. It was nothing of the sort. In fact, the meeting was a choreographed event with two purposes: to diffuse popular anger against both BP and the Obama administration, and to assure the financial markets that BP is in no danger of bankruptcy or criminal prosecution. There will be no serious consequences for the disaster that killed 11 workers on April 20 and has since pumped upwards of 60 million gallons of oil into the Gulf of Mexico. Even were it clear that the $20 billion will really be made available to the blowout�s many economic victims�and it is not�this is a preposterously small sum for a catastrophe whose real cost will run into the hundreds of billions, if not trillions. All the costs of environmental cleanup are to be paid out of this fund, according to the Financial Times. There can be no doubt that this alone will far surpass $20 billion. The deal ensures that the overwhelming burden of the costs of the disaster will be borne by the government, and ultimately the working class... ...hough the administration had done nothing to punish BP, Obama had been under pressure from financial circles to throw it a lifeline. The preceding weeks had seen BP shares tumble by half and on Tuesday Fitch downgraded the company�s credit rating by six notches. The escrow account is meant to shield BP from potentially hundreds of billions, or even trillions, in damages. While both Obama and BP promised that the account did not mean a $20 billion cap on liability had been put in place, the Independent Claims Facility is a preemptive blow against the tens of thousands of lawsuits BP is likely to face over the coming years. While it remains extremely vague, the escrow account will be BP�s first line of defense in determining what are �legitimate claims,� a phrase both Obama and company executives have repeatedly used. Those claimants deemed �illegitimate� might turn to the court system for redress, but having been ruled unfounded by a supposedly neutral observer, they will have a black mark hanging over them, and US courts are already notorious for defending corporate privilege. This is the fate that awaits the blowout�s financial victims. Millions of Gulf Coast residents are likely to suffer financially through layoffs which will ripple through the economy far beyond the fishing and tourism industries, through declining home values in a region already devastated by the real estate collapse, and through, in all probability, an epidemic of health problems. If there are 10 million such victims�less than the combined population of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, the three states hardest-hit so far�the miserly $20 billion escrow account would mean a mere $2,000 per person... http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jun2010/spil-j17.shtml |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:25 PM Stop having a go at BP them and get with them to hopefully sort things out as quick as possible. You just keep posting criticism after criticism on BP. Get the thing sorted then start sorting out who is to blame. Obama does not help the situation one little bit. Yes BP has f***** up, but your incessant baying is not helping the situation. As I said you guys have a lot to answer for all the wrongs you have done around the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:07 PM http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/55189 The Gulf of Mexico BP Oil Spill is the worst natural disaster in US history and the hurt is coming down on British Petroleum (BP) for their negligence and the damages they have caused… or so we thought. Today, the White House announced that BP has agreed to put $20 Billion in a fund to pay for damages and claims due to this disaster. This comes a day after new estimates place the amount of oil spilling into the Gulf per day at 40,000 – 60,000 barrels. Since the estimates and math for this fiasco haven't been adding up from the start, let's compare this oil spill to a previous spill, The Exxon Valdez and see how we're doing, shall we? Exxon Valdez Oil Spill: - Year: 1989 - Barrels Spilled: 250,000 - Cost of clean-up: $8.6 Billion ($14.69 Billion in 2010 dollars) * $2.5 Billion in allocated funds by Exxon for clean-up * $5 Billion charged in punitive damages* * $1.1 Billion in other settlements *Exxon has appealled this ruling up through 2008 and the supreme court reduced this settlement value numerous times. The initial 1994 ruling also lead to the first ever modern day credit default swap, when Exxon obtained a $4.6 Billion line of credit from J.P. Morgan & Co. Ironic that this disaster was something that helped lead to our recent financial disaster. BP Deepwater Horizon Oil Rig Explosion/Spill: - Year: 2010 - Barrels Spilled: 2.32 Million – 3.48 Million (As of 58 days into spill) - Cost to pay for clean-up: $20 Billion (As of June 16th, 2010) As stated above, the 2010 value of Exxon's initial agreed cost to clean-up the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill would be $14.69 Billion. Let's work on some simple math here: In 2010 Dollars: - Clean-up/payment in damages for 250,000 barrels of oil = $14.69 Billion - As of today, as much as 3.48 million barrels of oil have spilled into the Gulf of Mexico - That means the BP Gulf Oil Spill is 13.92 times LARGER than the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill - Estimated cost to clean-up/pay for damages: 13.92 x $14.69 Billion = $204 Billion Hmmm, I'd say BP is getting quite a deal, wouldn't you? And one may wonder how they were able to bridge this gap between $204 Billion and $20 Billion. How about another history lesson and comparison to the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill? As stated above, Exxon appealed the ruling of their having to pay $5 Billion in punitive damages up through 2008. And the result: In 2008, the Supreme Courts ruled 5-3 that Exxon is to pay no more than $507.5 Million in punitive damages for the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill. The original ruling was that Exxon was to pay ~$5 Billion, they actually ended paying out closer to ~$500 Million. Roughly 10%. BP's current expected liability, if the amount going into escrow is any indicator, is evidently ~$20 Billion. Whereas (asssuming a linear projection) their actual liability should be closer to ~$200 Billion. Oh look, there's that 10% again. Thus, we bridge the gap. One can't help but wonder if the US Govenrment isn't just pricing a string of BP legal victories through our court system into the total going into escrow. Considering the pathetic condition of the US courts ability to hold corporate malfactors accountable, this is probably a shrewd decision. But, what if BP loses? Wait, wait… who are we kidding? I'm sure $20 Billion will be just right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:04 PM Arthritis, if we didn't laugh, we would have to cry. And spare the that "you Americans" bullshit. I'm as critical of my country and my government as anyone else, and more than most (as my previous posts demonstrate). But you are apparently unable tolerate any criticism of anything even remotely British. I think that makes you the bigot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:59 PM Tony Hayward used the old "I don't know" and the "investigation is incomplete" defense before the Congressional Committee today. This is 59 days after the blowout and the Board doesn't have the information? Nonsense, of course. The dispersant used by BP may cause as much damage as the crude oil itself. I cited this paper in the other thread, "Acute Aquatic Toxicity of Three Corexit Products: An Overview" by researchers with Exxon Biomedical Sciences, Inc. The dispersants are the most toxic tested by the researchers. Acute Toxicity Exxon set up this company at arms-length so that its research would not be hindered by main company management or company association. It is one of the reasons Exxon had only one culpable infraction and BP had many hundreds. I understand that Chevron does much the same by placing research funds into arms-length programs at various universities; their violations have been few as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ebbie Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:55 PM "I will never forgive America for drawing Britain into agreeing to help you." Aw, poor baby Britain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:51 PM Is that meant to be funny Carol. If so it wasn't. If it is mean't to be real, then where is the evidence from this woman to support the gas coming out of her mouth. You americans are just good at mouthing off when things don't go right for you and very good at blaming everybody else. I think it's a disaster and am really sad about it all. However all this American hatred to BP is not solving the problem. Your Government are full of gas and only lining their pockets for the election or whatever is coming up. Give you mouths a rest and let BP get on with it and support them and help them to get it sorted. What the hell are you going to do if BP tell you to f*** off and walk away from it. What will you do then. Has USA put right everything you did in Iraq. The devestation that you did based on lies was an absolute catastrophy. How you can hold your heads up, I don't know. I will never forgive America for drawing Britain into agreeing to help you. Both leaders should face war criminal charges. America should be paying billions to put right what they did in Iraq. Funny that, I bet you don't feel it's your responsibilty, do you. I am out of here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM Gee, why should people be mad at BP except that they hate the English? Hmm. Couldn't have anything to do with the 40k barrels of oil (I think that's the latest estimate--correct me if I'm wrong) pumping into the Gulf of Mexico and ultimately coming to shore on American shores? Nah, that couldn't be it. It must be national chauvinism. Listen to yourself! Why would people say "British Petroleum" if they weren't spiteful of the British? Hmm. Couldn't be because that was the name of the company for time immemorial, and they got used to saying it and weren't aware of hte name change, and have a hard time remembering the name change anyway because once you get into the habit of using a certain term it's bloody hard to get back out of it? Nah, that couldn't be it. It must be natural chauvinism. Holy fucking shit. Do you have two brain cells to rub together? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Greg F. Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM Call me an old cynic if you like, but it certainly wouldn't do the American oil companies any harm at all if BP were crippled, or better yet, removed.... Yeah, you know that Warren Report was a crock, too, & you do realize the Moon Landing was faked in a studio in Cincinnati. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM Code Pink to the rescue |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: artbrooks Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:23 AM AP article on protective equipment |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:20 AM Here's Riki Ott talking about the Exxon Valdez... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84W5kaz4AxA Here's Riki Ott talking about the disaster in the Gulf... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wrQCY76fps |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM You've got to be kidding, Don. Why don't you come on over here, maybe volunteer to help clean up along the Gulf, and you can see for yourself what's going on. And don't bother to wear a respirator. You deserve to be given proof that the fumes from the oil is making people sick. Maybe getting sick yourself is the only you're going to find out. Every decision that BP has made (and I get most of my information from sources other than the US corporate media), has been specifically for the purpose of mitigating liability rather than mitigating harm, and they are causing far more harm in the process. And the government of this country has assisted them in doing that every step of the way. For instance, environmentalists have consistently said that using large amounts of chemical dispersants would compound the damage caused to the ecosystems in the Gulf rather than mitigating it. But BP prefers to spray the dispersants because their liability is measured by the barrel of oil spilled, and it's a lot harder to measure the amount of oil spilled if it's dispersed into underwater plumes (which BP tried to pretend weren't there until it became impossible to do) than if it's floating on the top where it can be skimmed off and measured. And our government said, fine. And when our government told them they had to switch to a less toxic brand of dispersant, they basically said too bad and kept on using the more toxic kind, which, by the way, is banned in your country. And what did the government of this country do about their refusal? Absolutely nothing. Because BP is allowed to do whatever the hell it wants. And they're skulking around in the nighttime collecting and disposing of dead animals because it's a felony to kill protected and endangered species. Scientists want to know how many animals are being killed and they want to study the effects of this disaster, but BP is making it very difficult for them to do that, and all because it wants to mitigate its liability. These are scientists and environmentalists who are saying these things. And Riki Ott, a marine toxicologist who has nothing whatever to do with competing oil companies, and whose entire concern is the welfare of the people of the Gulf and the environment there, since her business as a fisherman in Alaska was destroyed by the Exxon Valdes spill, is saying all of the same things I have reported here. You guys really are showing yourselves to be utterly lacking in compassion, and you really have no idea what you're talking about. Here you go, Richard. Video evidence about BP not allowing the workers to wear protective gear... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#37744181 |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:10 AM ""The idea that there is bigotry involved is just plain silly."" Maybe not exactly Bigotry, Don F. Call me an old cynic if you like, but it certainly wouldn't do the American oil companies any harm at all if BP were crippled, or better yet, removed. Everything that has been published since the start of the spill, both by the US Media, and the US government, has had the effect of destroying the share value of a foreign competitor. Of course, we are constantly being told there is no such agenda, so that must be alright then. After all, US Media and politicians don't lie, do they? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:34 AM That's all bullshit. He's just pretending to be tough on them to diffuse some of the anger of the people of this country. They had to pretend to be on a "perp walk" and to be humbled for the same reason. In reality, he's handling them with kid gloves, and they still call the shots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:26 AM A couple of comments from British newspapers this morning Quote They called it the "perp walk" - the moment BP executives marched up to the White House for what the Independent calls a "presidential spanking". "Perp walk", the Guardian tells us, is American slang for a police parade of suspects - short for "perpetrator". The paper says BP's $20bn compensation fund and suspension of dividends is President Obama's "pound of flesh". The Daily Mail says it was a day of BP-bashing by a president who, it claims, "bullied" the firm into capitulation. Unquote |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:12 AM Richard, the workers themselves are saying that. And they're out there, working without protective gear, because they are afraid they will lose their jobs if they wear it. That is, when they overcome their fear of speaking out. BP has forced them to sign papers saying they won't talk to anyone about anything, and they have private security guards prevent people from having access to them when they're out in the field (even when they are on break). BP is also preventing people in our media from having access to public areas so they can film what is going on. BP is dictating to the US government and the US government is letting them. BP is functioning as our government. BP has a track record of these kinds of things. They have the worst safety record by orders of magnitude of any oil company operating in the US. They have already been found guilty of one or more felonies in other cases of criminal negligence. This is their corporate culture. It's what they do. And you are defending it. AND ONE MORE TIME - WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK WHERE THEY COME FROM. WHAT WE CARE ABOUT IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:58 AM Fugitive from Sanity, I have carefully explained, above, exactly why BP is an English company. It takes little or no searching to find many Americans, from Obama down, referring to BP as "British Petroleum" (which is no longer their name) and emphasising BP's headquarters in St James, London (England). Since those things are irrelevant to BP's liability or responsibility (often not the same thing) why are they emphasised save as a matter of prejudice? The vast preponderance of utterances from the USA focus on BP - and few on Transocean, Halliburton, or Cameron-Cooper, whose products actually failed in use. Why should that be so save as a matter of prejudice. By all means condemn BP if and to the extent that it is guilty, but not because it is English. I should appreciate an authority for the allegation that BP is prohibiting cleanup workers from wearing necessary protective clothing. If they were subject to English law in respect of those acts (they are not, since the alleged acts occur outside the jurisdiction) that would itself be an offence under health and safety legislation, regardless of any injury sustained. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: CarolC Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:03 AM There's definitely culpability on both sides. But to try to characterize people's anger at BP as being bigotry towards the British is just cruel. We're angry at Bush, too, and I'm not particularly happy with Obama right now for letting BP continue to call all of the shots, and most people in the US are always pissed off with Haliburton (who, in this case, appear to have been actually trying to be responsible, as much as it pains me to say it). But calling us bigots because we're also pissed off with BP, and telling us we should be pissed off with everyone else except BP. That's totally out of line, and shows an incredible lack of compassion for the people whose lives are being destroyed, and lack of concern for the damage that's being done to our environment. And to characterize Obama, who resides in the back pocket of BP, as being too tough on them is just ludicrous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:28 AM Sorry CarolC!! I was going by past posts, on this thread. You've been cool! Also, "US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)" just shows some irrationality, on either or one side of the pond. Shit happens, and there is culpability on both sides! GfS |
