BS: Latin translation - help needed

Subject: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Arnie
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 05:23 AM

I've started a beginners Latin course which has now ended for the year. However, I regularly pass a stonemasons shop, and on the window is engraved a Latin motto - almam non sin pulvere. I know that pulvere = dust but cannot work out almam, which I presume is some form of a verb. It's really annoying me to see this motto regularly without knowing what it means. I know there are one or two Latin scholars on Mudcat so wonder if you could help out with the translation?

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 05:35 AM

Almonds perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Gervase
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:30 AM

From my hazy recollection, 'almam' can mean sustenance, nourishment or that which makes you live. A rough translation in the context of the mason's shop would be 'no living without dust'.

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:33 AM

It appears to say "Nurturing not unless Dust (or sand)" which seems not to make too much sense

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Arnie
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 07:31 AM

I had exactly the same problem using my Latin dictionary and looking online - no translation seems to make sense. As a last resort, I suppose I could always ask at the stonemason's shop - but it's probable that they won't know either. I'm beginning to wonder if they've made an error with their Latin.

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 07:45 AM

almam non sin pulvere
alm.am               ADJ    1 1 ACC S F POS            
almus, alma, almum ADJ   [XXXCO]
nourishing, kind, propitious; of a nurse/breast, providing nurture, fostering;

non                  N      9 8 X   X M               
Non., abb. N M   [XXXDX]    lesser
Nones (pl.), abb. Non.; 7th of month, March, May, July, Oct., 5th elsewhen;
non                  ADV    POS                        
non ADV   [XXXAX]
not, by no means, no; [non modo ... sed etiam => not only ... but also];

sin                  CONJ                              
sin CONJ   [XXXBX]
but if; if on the contrary;
*
pulver.e             N      3 1 LOC S M               
pulver.e             N      3 1 DAT S M                   Early   
pulver.e             N      3 1 ABL S M               
pulvis, pulveris N (3rd) M   [XXXBX]
dust, powder; sand;

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 10:46 AM

getting behind the trees of mauvepink's forest, how about:

Not nourishment but dust

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 12:17 PM

Tootler... it would begin with 'non' if it were that I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 12:43 PM

Sorry. Did not mean to erect a forest. I cut and pasted directly from one of the many latin to english online resources. My latin decipher, which works only in DOS, could not get to it either

apologies once more

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 12:45 PM

A quick google says "palma non sine pulvere" is a widely-used tag. This one has to be either a garbling of it or an allusion to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Arnie
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 02:08 PM

JC - I think you may well be right. palma non sine pulvere translates as no prize/glory without effort. Perhaps the dust created by a stonemason is a sign of his hard work which leads ultimately to the end result of a beautifully engraved headstone - the 'prize'. In which case, the stonemasons have got the motto wrong. Now this stonemason is situated on the same road as a grammar school where Latin is still taught. I wonder if they get students calling in to comment on this inscription? I've e-mailed my Latin teacher but suspect she's now on holiday and not logging on.I may well call on the stonemasons myself to get this cleared up once and for all - I've had a look at their website but there is no motto displayed. I've also looked at the Worshipful Company of Stonemasons website, and their motto is an English one.

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:39 PM

Making a typo when you're a stonemason must be a real pain...

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 02:20 AM

I think I've seen "sin" used instead of "sine," so that could be acceptable. That "Almam" (accusative case, feminine) might be proper, although I'd be tempted to the the nominative "Alma." So, "Almam non sin pulvere" could mean "You can't get sweetness / nourishment without making dust."
As pointed out above, this page discusses the Latin idiom, "Palma non sine pulvere" - but maybe this is supposed to be a variation of the "Palma" idiom.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 12:38 PM

On the other hand it could just be nonsense!

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 12:50 PM

"I regularly pass a stonemasons shop, and on the window is engraved a Latin motto

next time, stop in and ask....

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: s&r
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 06:30 PM

Foras sesto pondero ver

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: Arnie
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 11:02 AM

Bill D - when I regularly pass the stonemason's, I'm in my car. It's located near traffic lights, and I only get a glance at the motto if the lights are on red - it's taken me a few months to get a good look at it and write it down whilst waiting for the lights to change. I wonder if it's a bookable offence - transcribing Latin mottos whilst in charge of a motor vehicle.

Subject: RE: BS: Latin translation - help needed
From: GUEST,Young Buchan
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 03:18 AM

Making a typo when you're a stonemason must be a real pain...

Probably when Amie went past the stonemason had just nipped out for a Pee,