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BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
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Subject: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Aug 10 - 05:57 PM Hooray. I remembered the "BS" prefix. Today two 10 year old boys were convicted of attempted rape of an 8 year old girl. What do they get? Supervision orders. The reaction of "experts" - a set of cries that our courts oppress the young, and that as a result human rights have been violated. Whose? Those of the rapists, not of the victim. The doli incapax rules are greatly flawed. The rebuttable presumption of innocence is obsolete. The conclusive presumption of innocence below age 10 was never right. The vast preponderance of little horrors know they are doing wrong and glory in their untouchable status. The rules should be replaced by a rule that presumes criminal responsibility but permits those up to the age of 8 (or mentally less able) to demonstrate lack of criminal intent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:18 PM Oh, I'm sure the rapists knew damn well they were doing wrong - but the perception of a 10-yr-old criminal is far different from that of a criminal who is 25 or 35 - and so the response to a 10-yr-old criminal should be different. When a child of 10 is committing crimes like that, something's horribly wrong, and it's not only the child's fault. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: SINSULL Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:21 PM I hope they are appropriately cuddled back to a civil lifestyle. SINS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Bill D Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:21 PM hmmm.. seems like someone realizes that 10 yr. olds don't figure these things out all alone. I wonder how you'd want a 10 year old nephew to be treated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Emma B Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:22 PM The 10 year olds were tried at The Old Bailey Richard! 'There is no other legal or social arena where we give children complete responsibility at 10, mostly for good reason. Other countries with a very low age (10 or less) usually have a period where responsibility is not absolute until mid-to late teens, or where the response to breaking the law is welfare-oriented rather than retributive. For example, the age in Scotland is eight but the consequences are almost all framed within the welfare system' From a Guardian article in June 2001 reporting on the Bulger case N.B. since then the age at which children can be held criminally responsible in Scotland has been raised to 12 to bring Scotland into line with most of Europe. What retribution would you suggest in this case Richard? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:25 PM These sick little bastards, as in the Bulger case (as events subsequently have proved) have nothing to offer to society. They'd make better soap than they would human beings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:26 PM The problem is that once upon a time, only the irrefutable external view of what occurred mattered, then society got 'clever' with the idea that 'the psychology of the interior mind' was very important, and the conceit that the perpetrator was also a victim (and thus should not be punished further) took hold. We are now only slowly moving away from a rigid adherence to that delusion, back towards the old idea that 'what really happened in fact' is more important - ie a hidden dead body is a fact, so a murder was committed and a body was concealed and we need to find and punish someone.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:29 PM The charge of "murder" does require a certain mens rea, so that is perhaps not the best example. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:31 PM I'm with Joe on this I think BUT... These kind of cases should be taken on a case by case basis with precendents not being allowed in law. Some ten years olds will be lots more mature and streetwise than other ten year olds. What does need looking into quite strongly is the children's home enviromnet and the parenting. That, too, will differ greatly. The law often seem not to be able to deal with some things case on case and on individual merits. It often appears to be very black and white when grey is the primary colour. All kinds of factors are involved with crimes such as these boys committed. I have no problem saying it is a crime but as to how you treat the offenders must be open to close scrutiny. One sentence fits all cannot and must not be allowed to play a part here. The other factors should play a very important part in any such punishments or rehabilitations. mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: akenaton Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:32 PM Society's children? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:34 PM PS I know a bad man whose 15 year old daughter's head was held down in a bath of water until she agreed to fellate and then screw her aggressors. Said aggressors later found that some drinks tasted funny and woke up tied up inside a freight container with no clothes but with a retired pornstar with a 15" dick (and Aids) who liked white boys. Served the little bastards right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:35 PM These "sick little bastards" are of an age that while they may be responisible and know the right and worning thing to do they still need treating humanely. Whatever is shown to be the reason for their crime, the precotiousness of such children is every adults responisbilty. We accept all the stuff to happen in schools, on the television, in comics, that rob children of innocence and their childhood. If we do not want more such crimes we need law to stop the sexualisation of so many things and return childhood back to the children mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:50 PM "Some ten years olds will be lots more mature and streetwise than other ten year olds" Once should not confuse 'maturity' with 'streetwise' - I've seen 'streetwise' kids who were hopelessly immature - throughly self centered arrogant 'indestructible' monsters who knew how to work the system for their own benefit - not all of them had been 'schooled', they worked it out for themselves after gleaning a few facts, such as "a child is not responsible, and the cops won't touch you" - these kids were highly intelligent, just 'asocial' and thus probably mostly 'amoral' too... they also did not, or did not want to, understand the concept of 'consequences', especially 'social consequences'. It has been argued that 'such animals are not "human" and should be destroyed and not allowed to breed, lest they weaken the fabric of humanity'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: jeddy Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:58 PM on one leval i want to agree with richard, string the little gits up by their ankles and hit then with a bat! on another i agree that cases are individual, the cercomstances, the 'reasons' and the damage caused are all different for every crime ever committed. call me middle of the road if you wish, but seriously, courts and prisons, will work on some but not on others, what do we do with the others? longer sentances? anything to keep them out of society? what we need is to find the alternative. i can well imagine that for some of these kids, it is nice to have structure. to be told what to do, or to be taught how to think for themselves. i know you all expect me to want to string them up for this sort of crime. in my heart i do. BUT it won't help their or societies future. we cannot lock up those who prison hasn't conformed forever. so please help, i am not talking just this case, but alot more that haven't been reorted. take care all jade x x x x |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:58 PM "It has been argued that 'such animals are not "human" and should be destroyed and not allowed to breed, lest they weaken the fabric of humanity'... " If we were to advocate such draconian measures I would suggest the fabric of society as already being in tatters. Once society gives up on children (and do remember that it is adults that make children) then we will truly get the society we deserve. I take your point about streetwise and mature... but I think most would understand the point I was making, ineloquent as it may have seemed to you. Seldom are there bad dog or bad children. Just bad owners and bad parents. There will always be exceptions, of course, but then these people need our help not our slaughter of them. What will have become of us if we so sanction putting children down? We are all animals incidentally mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: jeddy Date: 18 Aug 10 - 07:01 PM holocasut anyone? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM Started reading the Daily Mail then, Richard? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:10 PM Hitler's reaction to this would have been similarly violent and final, I expect. He'd have turned those boys into "soap". He was very strongminded when it came to moral issues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Ebbie Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:26 PM I can't believe this. I have not read the charges but note that it says "attempted" rape. Why in the world would you give up on two ten year olds? I expect there are such things as 'bad seeds' but do you really believe that there are two of them - and they know each other? sheesh, Richard. You're going to end up giving lawyers a bad name. "I know a bad man whose 15 year old daughter's head was held down in a bath of water until she agreed to fellate and then screw her aggressors. "Said aggressors later found that some drinks tasted funny and woke up tied up inside a freight container with no clothes but with a retired pornstar with a 15" dick (and Aids) who liked white boys." May I say that that sounds like an urban legend? And add that your attitude is just about as scary to me as are the two ten year olds? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: mousethief Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:32 PM "It has been argued that 'such animals are not "human" and should be destroyed and not allowed to breed, lest they weaken the fabric of humanity'... " Boy is that Nazispeak or what? Any time we start defining any human as "not human" we are dehumanizing ourselves. This is abominable language. Ditto "turning into soap". When we start treating humans as subhuman, the end of our civilization is near. And warranted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Bill D Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:36 PM I agree with Ebbie on this...totally |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:37 PM "but I think most would understand the point I was making, ineloquent as it may have seemed to you." I understood your point only too well. When we advocate, or worse, practice such a level of unmercifulness, then we are no different from those we decry. But them I can remember as a child, one of the things that held me and my associates mostly in check was an emotion called 'fear' ... :-) The type of kids I was referring to, appear to have no 'fear', especially 'fear of consequences'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: kendall Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:42 PM As the twig is bent, so is the tree inclined. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: jeddy Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:47 PM sounds very pretty kendal, but what on earth does it mean????? x x x x x |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Aug 10 - 12:08 AM I can't think of any more disgusting or uninformed posts that those from the OP on this thread. I've been here since '98 and this is a new low............Ebbie, Foolestroupe, Emma, Sinsull make the points. If the boys are appalling, I have to say that Bridge is appalling to the 100th power and has even less to offer society than the 10 year olds. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: GUEST,I Remember When I Was 10 Years Old Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:17 AM And I was a very different human being to what I am now. I'm surprised at a well-known and outspoken Mudcat-Socialist writing things that would shame even the most rabid right-winger.
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Emma B Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:35 AM In 1998 the Crime and Disorder Act was passed which was generally understood to have abolished the centuries old doctrine of doli incapax for children between the ages of 10 and 14 (ie the presumption that children from 10 to 14 lacked sufficient understanding to be criminally responsible) At the time many progressives felt this was an assault on all notions of social reform by a government intent to mark itself as the 'natural party of law and order'. Writing in the Independent on the politicisation of child offenders in England, Paul Vallely opined, "In Britain, under the guise of a thirst for justice, we indulge a lust for vengeance. It is as if we need a vehicle for outrage displaced from wider disquiet about social trends for which child crime becomes a kind of lightning conductor." He has also commented on the major differences in which children accused of committing crimes are treated in different European countries "Our system of justice is adversarial in nature. Each case is a joust between two barristers seeking a clear verdict, guilty or not. But the truth is rarely so black and white, most particularly where children are involved. What would have been more productive was a consensual search for the truth and an attempt to arrive at a common view on what was the best way to deal with all three of these children. Some other countries, like Scotland or France, attempt that through the legal process but an examining magistrate questioning the child. In Sweden a child psychologist sees the child and provides a statement to the court. In this case statements from teachers were solicited and presented by the defence barristers. One boy was described as a model pupil who had never displayed and tendency to bullying or sexual behaviour. Such a contribution in a multi-agency conference would contribute to a more nuanced judgement than conviction or acquittal. Adversarial law seeks winners and losers. But the activities of delinquent youth often produce no-win situations. Sometimes the least-worst option is realistically the best that can be achieved. Justice should ultimately be about repairing damage to our social fabric. So often it is not. INSTEAD IT IS INSTEAD ONLY A WAY OF GIVING VENT TO SOCIETY'S SELF-RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION. BUT THAT WAY, IN THE END, WE ALL LOSE." Can a 10 year old understand what rape is? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: bubblyrat Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:09 AM Put the children in care, and jail the parents for failing to instil moral concepts. And ,for God's sake everyone, stop WORSHIPPING children, and treat them for what they are ; young,growing,people in constant need of supervision and guidance !! "Spare the rod,and spoil the child " --- Never, ever, in our history was that truer than it is today !! But if you keep on giving them everything,and denying them nothing, then what the HELL do expect them to behave like ?? As ye sow, so shall ye reap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: bubblyrat Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:10 AM PS You may regard the "rod" above as somewhat metaphorical !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: greg stephens Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:16 AM I don't know what to think about this case as I have no idea what happened. I do know exactly what I think about Richard Bridge's posts...truly terifying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: kendall Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:50 AM jeddy, what it means is; How you bring up your kids has a lot to do with how they turn out as people. It's almost certain that one or both of those boys were sexually abused. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Backwoodsman Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:54 AM Amen, Kendall. Wise words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: katlaughing Date: 19 Aug 10 - 11:00 AM Spaw, thanks for saying what I have been feeling, too. This is definitely a new low for Mudcat. I know it is a novel, but if anyone wants to read an incredibly good book with tons of research, a brilliant look back at why a child come to be a murderer, I would urge you to read What Came Before He Shot Her by Elizabeth George who writes the Inspector Lynley novels. NOT excusing such horrific acts, but she really delves into the psychological and physical upbringing aspects of such tragedies involving children. I second the giving kids any and everything they want...it does them NO favours and can cause lots of problems later on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: jeddy Date: 19 Aug 10 - 11:06 AM thanks kendall, not sure about abused but there has to be have been something to make them even think of it in the first place, let alone try it. the problem is we are all individuals, what works for one child doesn't for the next one. how many prgrammes have we watched where the parents say they were all treated the same, but this one turned out different? whether for medical or psycological reasons. personally i am in the middle or nature verses nuture. i think we are predisposed to some thing, if the enviroment is right then those tendancies can be given free rein. some struggle all their lives to curb them, because they have been given the tools to do so, others who haven't been so fortunate are likely to get themselves into trouble. AAAHHHRRRRR brain ache! there is no quick solution, no one size fits all. the one thing i think we can agree on, is that children must be made to face the consequences of their actions, in what form that takes, i don't know. take care all x x x x x x x |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 19 Aug 10 - 11:38 AM "not sure about abused but there has to be have been something to make them even think of it in the first place, let alone try it." There have been incidents where children who have been involved in assaulting other children appear to be attempting to mimic behaviors that they have been forced to submit to by adults. One I can think of where a little boy made a little girl take his penis in her mouth in the school toilets, he then pee'd in her mouth. Not exactly oral sex because clearly it wasn't a *sexual* act for him, but that's what he was mimicking. From memory, the boy had been sexually abused himself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 19 Aug 10 - 11:41 AM Oh, I think it aught to be pointed out that it was apparently an unsuccessful *attempted* rape on the part of the young boys. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 19 Aug 10 - 11:41 AM PS Hi Jeddy :) x |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Emma B Date: 19 Aug 10 - 11:48 AM It is often difficult to distinguish between normal and healthy childhood sexual 'experimentation' and sexual deviance resulting from exposure to pornography or sexual abuse Where very young children display sexual knowledge and behaviour beyond that which is appropriate for their age for example enacting adult sexual scenarios and in their play with other children or with their dolls and stuffed animals. it is usually regarded as an indicator of sexual abuse However, an increase in the sexual behaviour of children on the edge of puberty is a separate issue and possibly should come as no surprise In our current society before a child reaches puberty, she or he has probably been exposed to thousands if not tens of thousands of sexual messages, many of which may be incomprehensible and confusing. Even in my own childhood over 5 decades ago I remember singing quite sexually implicit songs set to popular tunes of the time passed down by older siblings While it is true that children who have been sexually abused have a greater tendency to display sexualised behaviour it is now also understood the same can happen when children have been exposed to or confronted with adult-like sexual behaviour. From an article by Dr. Kaeser (who teaches human sexuality at NYU and C.W. Post College) looking at normative vs. problematic sexual behaviour of children aimed at parents and teachers - it is suggested "Evaluating the appropriateness of children's sexual behaviors often requires an assessment of the context in which the behaviors occur. While there are sexual behaviors that in and of themselves are problematic (e.g. simulating or attempting intercourse), we frequently need to evaluate them in context. Contextual factors that may need consideration are: Frequency and repetitiveness of the behavior Use of force, aggression, or coercion Age discrepancies in children involved in a behavior Equality or mutuality among children involved Expressed intent " If we applied this to the case in discussion we find no use of aggression or force; the girl herself (who was only 2 years younger and known to the boys) participated in this occurrence by removing her underwear It really is by no means 'certain' that any of these children had been sexually abused although studies have shown that when looking at abnormal sexual behaviour in pre-pubescent children the girls involved were more commonly victims of sexual abuse (The British Journal of Psychiatry) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Ebbie Date: 19 Aug 10 - 11:53 AM Again- I have not read the charges and findings of the court trial but it seems likely to me that the reason it was called 'attempted rape' was that nobody present knew/knows about penetration. If that is true, it follows that each of them adjudged it on the basis of what they did knew, whether from experience, observation or peer tales. So, the little girl saying they had "put their willies inside her' may well not have any idea of what penetration actually is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Paul Burke Date: 19 Aug 10 - 01:34 PM Even the facts are somewhat confused. The girl withdrew her testimony, saying she had made it up because she was afraid she's be in trouble from her mother. The retraction could of course not be true, but it's not at all obvious that anything worse than bullying and naughty play took place: "An eight-year-old girl alleged to have been sexually assaulted by two 10-year-olds has told the Old Bailey that the boys did not rape her. She said she had lied to her mother about what had happened because she had been "naughty" and was worried she would not get any sweets. " - BBC News, 13th May 2010. On the other hand, we could go back to hanging children, like they did in the 17th century. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: leeneia2 Date: 19 Aug 10 - 01:36 PM "Hitler's reaction to this would have been similarly violent and final, I expect. He'd have turned those boys into "soap". He was very strongminded when it came to moral issues." You mean the Hitler that married his own niece? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Ebbie Date: 19 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM I'll have to go back and read history. I thought he was in obvious love with his niece- I don't remember that they married. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 19 Aug 10 - 02:12 PM Hitler didn't marry his Niece, but he caused her to commit suicide through his obsessive control over her. One can but wonder what went on there.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:32 PM Why stop worshipping children? I worship my daughter and granddaughgter. I am not ashamed to say so. That does not mean I would excuse any bad deeds they did or have not 'had words' over any naughty behaviours as they grew up. Worshipping your children, and others for that matter, is not about excusing things they do wrong. It is very much about teaching them what is right/wrong, appropriate/inappropriate, whilst allowing them the chance to develop their own value system and respecting their points of view. People seem to struggle these days on where to draw the line between dicipline and abuse. Fact is I believe all good parents know exactly where that line is but may not be able to define it. I have been blessed by my daughter and granddaughter's life. They have never caused me troubles or gotten into trouble. They. too, have seemed to know where not to cross a line. When they got close to a bondary it was reinforced and explained. Children seem to love having solid, consitent boundaries to grow up around. Nothing wrong in worshipping children nor holding them on a pedestal. What we need do is stop thinking we adults have all the answers. I used to say there is not right way to bring up a child. There are lots of bad ways. But for the grace of God go I.... As a parent I made mistakes I have not made as a grandparent. My daughter still loves me and she now knows why I had to do some of the things I did back then. I did not always get it right but when I got it wrong I apologised and tried to make up for it. If we are not to worship our children who are we left to worship? Those children are who hold tomorrow's answers... mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM Hitler "was very strongminded when it came to moral issues" This would be the same Hitler that tried to get rid of a whole race of people along with anyone who was disabled (physically and memtally), anyone gay... anyone who did not agree with his master plan? I think we need to discuss the definition of what being moral is if this is the case no offence mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:48 PM Shakespeare looms up before me... Dick :"First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" Cade: Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since. How now! who's there? (Shakespeare's Henry VI, part 2) The first line is often the one quoted but i think what is imprtant is Cade's reply. You can interpret it a couple of ways I suppose Good job no-one does as Dick suggests huh? mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Smokey. Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:49 PM I think there may have been an element of irony to the original Hitler comment.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Ebbie Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:54 PM I agree with Smokey. I think Little Hawk twisted his mouth when he said that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:56 PM Yes, Smokey... as in my reply above hence the "no offence" to clarify I, too, was taking it ironically :-) mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:25 PM They were found guilty of attempted rape. That involves a finding that they know what they were doing was wrong. The burden of proof in criminal matters is "beyond reasonable doubt". So what is a supervision order going to achieve? To make sure that the little attempted rapists don't forget that what they already knew was wrong was wrong? Basically, they were let off. Sure, I remember when I was 10 too. Who doesn't? |
