The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:38 PM

Exactly so, Howard, and that's what I've been trying to tell Conrad all along! The "hoots"—the parties where we all get together in each other's homes and spend an evening sing for our own and each other's enjoyment? They've been going on for years!

And it is NOT a "secret culture." Yes, most of them are in private homes and they are by invitation, but anyone who shows any kind of interest, whether they sing or not, invariably gets invited.

We did find out, way back in the early 1950s, that we had to keep them invitation only, otherwise everybody and his cousin's pet chicken who wanted to go to a party on a Friday or Saturday night, BUT who wasn't the least bit interested in folk music, would come to these song fests for the free beer and snacks, and generally disrupt the singing. And there was the occasional person who, for example, didn't have the courtesy to shut up while someone was singing, who would no longer be invited.

Or anybody who made himself or herself just bloody obnoxious.

And therein lies Conrad's problem. He confessed up-thread that he lost all his folk music friends because he kept telling them they were doing it all wrong and trying to shove his ideas down their throats.

No bloody wonder they stopped inviting him!

But a "secret culture?" No way!

Conrad is his own worst problem.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:20 PM

Wow......Now we all need to get together on the secret handshakes and secret decoder rings!!!!    But as I get to thinking about it, I don't wanna' belong to any secret group that has Conrad as a member.....Body Odor and stupidity would undoubtedly be involved...................not to mention shitting in hedges or possibly your pants.............................


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:05 PM

Thats because it is in the secret culture. That needs to be opened up.

The music scene needs to be dominated by the small people who are now invisible in a closed world and no there still aren't any way as many of them as there could be.

For most people the only link to folk music if any is via entertainment.


Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 08:12 PM

You have a totally inverted idea of the folk scene. You see it as dominated by a few professional musicians and large commercial festivals, whereas in fact they are the tip of the iceberg. The overwhelming majority of people are playing folk in their homes and in their communities, for little or no monetary reward, for the love of the music. It's there right in front of you, but you won't see it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 08:01 PM

We need to do what is right for both ends of the tradition not just contemporary development.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 06:44 PM

"Including Jim Moray's rap version of Lucy Wan"

And then there's
Waltjim Bat Matilda

No really, go listen, she's brilliant - a talented Aussie singer from the Northern Territory, obviously having fun with a bunch of her muso friends 'having a go' at what many Aussies consider their Unofficial National (Folk?) Anthem.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 06:21 PM

"You should not believe that what people want is always the best solution. It is very often the worst solution."

There I agree with you, Conrad. But obviously you can't see how strongly this applies to you!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 05:24 PM

There were two broadwood collectors Lucy and I think her father.....

You should not believe that what people want is always the best solution. It is very often the worst solution.

Most of my work has been collecting up and transcribing folk songs and customs. It is not enough to collect. We must find a system that puts these treasures back into the mainstream and commercial paradigms are not doing the job. The goal of comercial paradigms is to make money.

Yes they are not making much so wonders why not make a few changes.

And yes there are exceptions actually some people who just sing in private. They need to be given stages and put the commercial pros in private.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 05:07 PM

I wasn't intending to be back in here again, but just reread what I posted. In pursuit of accuracy "Search the repertoire of a 19th century singer like Henry Broadwood" ... doh ... he was a collector... I meant Henry Burstow. This will be of no importance to anyone else, but Ifelt accuracy was probably useful.

Gone again

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 05:05 PM

Actually, Ralphie, from what I found on the internet, Baltimore has a fairly large and thriving folk scene. Conrad's problem is that he has managed to alienate himself from it by trying to tell them how they should run things, thereby earning himself a boot up the bum, sending him somersaulting down the front steps.

Can't say's I blame them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 04:57 PM

Another piece of evidence of Conrad's total bewilderment:

"What people choose to do has nothing to do with the evolution of society. . . ."

What people chose to do has EVERYTHING to do with the evolution of society!

SHEESH!!!

####

Spaw, thanks for your kind words at 08 Sep 10 - 11:08 p.m.

Also, congratulations (I think) on hitting 400. But—on this thread, I'm not sure if this is an achievement or an indictment!    :-\

I went over some of the stuff that I posted on this thread, and I find that although I covered a bit of history and made what I consider to be valid points, I really repeated myself a lot. General motivation was that Conrad obviously wasn't getting it, and I was apparently optimistic enough—or naïve enough—to think that if I said the same thing about fourteen different ways, he might eventually grasp it.

But obviously his butt is so tightly epoxied to his hobby horse (rocks back and forth and makes a lot of racket, but goes nowhere) that he can't get off, even if he wanted to, which obviously he doesn't.

Since I've pretty much said what I have to say (several times in several ways) and it hasn't penetrated his armor of stubborn ignorance (or resentment for not being recognized as a genius despite his notable lack of talent), and because I want to prepare something new for our writer's group, which meets this Sunday afternoon, I may make myself a bit scarce on this thread for the next few days.

As to my writing endeavors (if I may crow a bit), for the last several years I have been writing a sort of history / personal reminiscences (calling it a "memoir" seems kinda pompous) of the folk scene, mostly focusing on this area, as I have observed it for the past—lemme see—fifty-eight years. I have over 120,000 words written by way of first draft and I still have a way to go yet, so when I get the first draft completed, it's going to take some serious editing to get it down to readable proportions.

When I finally get it finished and off to a receptive publisher, I will definitely post a "Shameless Self-Promotion" thread.

I'll probably peek in from time to time to see if hell may have frozen over.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 04:53 PM

ok now what is keeping you from understanding that folk culture is best preserved and kept alive by people who practice it (Quote)
Errrrm...
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but here in the UK, There are thousands of musicians/singers/dancers/storytellers doing exactly that!
We just prefer to do it in comfortablle surroundings most of the time.
Baltimore must be a real cultural desert.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 04:45 PM

I know the prices and they are high.

I agree that the musical selections are not at all often folk at all.

no need to have massive stages just break it into smaller and spread them here and there. easy

its not about entertainment its about passing on the tradition and entertainment is something else and the optional part.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM

It ain't smoke Cornhole......its a fumigant we use after your each and every visit to keep the place from stinkin' to high heavens.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM

Many of the big commercial festivals are sold out in advance. It's not price which is keeping people out, it's capacity.

The reason the wider population isn't playing folk music isn't because people aren't exposed to it - most people have some idea of folk music and what it sounds like. They ignore it because they don't like it - they don't want to make their own entertainment when they can get highly-polished professional entertainment on tap, and they regard those of us who do as a bit odd.

When people like this do get into folk music (as some do) it is more likely to be via the big commercial festivals (such as Cambridge here in the UK), which tend to book guests who I would not necessarily consider "folk" myself. You are not going to get these people's attention by expecting them to stand out in the rain trying to listen to unknown musicians who they can't hear, with nothing to eat or drink, nowhere to buy books or CDs or anything else, and no toilets. Not even if it's free.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 03:00 PM

I have nothing against new or modified material however, it is getting far too much attention airplay and space.

I would go for 50% share but because there is so much more old stuff we should give it a 80%.

I know what is on the other side of the ocean- I listen to BBC, know exactly who is playing at the big commercial festivals, know that these festivals are expensive and therefore the audience is limited.

The fact that old treasures are in the past is irrelevant.

One can learn an old piece just as easiy as a new one but we are encouraged by the commercial world to have a bias in their favor.

Therefore despite the revivals most people still do not practice and play folk music and culture.

So if the commercial way was so brilliant why dont people practice it more rather than less.

We have only created a community of audience and not of practitioners.

What people choose to do has nothing to do with the evolution of society but rather for choices presented to them and marketing and education.

ok now what is keeping you from understanding that folk culture is best preserved and kept alive by people who practice it and we need to increase the numbers rather than limit them via the added costs of commercialization and professionalization.

Still makes perfect sense to me but you folks are blowing a lot of smoke to cover the reality up.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 01:15 PM

and 400

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 01:13 PM

Personally, I like them both as they give me the chance to call them assholes in many different ways and it pays to stay in practice. Yeah, I know....both are easy targets as they aren't too bright and have a compensated low self-esteem but I don't care as long as I'm having fun, fuck them! Well, maybe that's going too far........I doubt even Conrad's wife goes THAT far............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 12:44 PM

GUEST,Ralphie - Thanks, but I'm all too familiar with 'WaV, the entity', I was more wondering what makes them do it, and why I'm daft enough to get drawn into it.

Conrad has now discovered that he gets more constant attention if he insults people/groups - watch this space..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 12:20 PM

"Is anyone likely to take on board Conrad's manifesto, and shit in a hedge with 30 other people in order to listen to a bloke who lives down the road? Nope."

Yeah, I would actually. But only if you took shitting in the hedge outa the equation. Nuh, uh! Too many dodgy piles of 'leaves' after the end of the week for my liking..

The biggest problem I have with Conrad's postings is the bombast, the irrational hating on pro. artists (who as far as I can tell barely scrape a living and only do it for the love of sharing the music itself), and the absence of detailed practical advice for anyone wanting to emulate his supposed example.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

Surreysinger: "As Ralphie said, things on this side of the pond are working nicely ... evolving in whatever manner the younger element of the folk movement sees fit, and as they always have done."

Yes, yes. I didn't intend to dismiss the 'new revival' or however people prefer to identify what's going on now with the twenty-sumthing trad. folkies who have arisen in the wake of the relative *commercial* successes of certain key figures in the current folk revival music scene.

As Surreysinger says, new people on the block, new interpretations happening all over the shop. Including Jim Moray's rap version of Lucy Wan. Of course rap, as musical art, is as much of a home-made community tradition as any folk art can be..

As a side note, Rap first appeared as a distinct cultural phenomenon during the late Seventies, while around the same time the hippies (with their free music festivals) were in the process of becoming yet another cultural anacronism.. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:45 AM

This thread kind of reminds me of the man with a congregation of just 50 people who is getting international media attention because he's going to burn the Koran. If everyone just ignored these bozos, they would go away. Telling them, repeatedly, that they are bozos gives them the attention they crave. Arguing their points with them leads them to believe that they have an argument worth actually considering.

Is anyone likely to take on board Conrad's manifesto, and shit in a hedge with 30 other people in order to listen to a bloke who lives down the road? Nope. Instead, we will all continue to do what we love to do in the way(s) we love to do it. Is reiterating this fact going to get him to change his tune? Nope. So why not just leave him to it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:29 AM

Things ain't all that bad in the USA either. The main thing that is fucked up over here is Conrad.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM

Conrad - I find each sentence of yours requires a great deal of consideration to get any sense from it, but it would appear that from a couple of recent posts you consider that it is necessary to preserve and transmit the old music and songs intact for the future at any cost... and that modern,contemporary composed songs taint the scene. (I may be wrong in this).

If so,I think you ignore the fact that singers (certainly on this side of the pond) in the nineteenth century and since made and make no distinction between the types of music that they sing. If a song is a good one, it joins the repertoire. Indeed many songs that are now in the repertoire of those considered source singers in the UK found their initial place on the music hall stage in the 19th and 20th centuries, and live cheek by jowl with earnest ballads of much longer pedigree, lyrical ballads composed in the 19th century, broadside ballads plyed on the streets and sung to (then) modern tunes. Search the repertoire of a 19th century singer like Henry Broadwood and you can find ballads in modal format, alongside the likes of "Woodman spare that tree". What, as far as I understand it, you are trying to do is preserve (in aspic) the old songs as if they are a compartmental entity in their own right - which they ain't.

As Ralphie said, things on this side of the pond are working nicely ... evolving in whatever manner the younger element of the folk movement sees fit, and as they always have done.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:58 AM

Hey Conrad...Calm down.
You sound like you're about to implode!
Here in the UK, the "revival" (or the "continuation" to refer to it in it's proper context) of the traditions of this fair land (Song/Dance/etc) is doing just fine and dandy thank you.
You seem to have a problem with the locality in which you reside.
Sorry to tell you pal. But everything is absolutely fine on this side of the pond. Never been better in fact. Loads of youngsters coming through, building their own take on the traditions that have gone before.
You must be living in one really sad place. Try moving.
(But not this way)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:55 AM

"No Way has evolution excluded the possibility of a true cultural revival."

The folk make different music now, because it's what *they* want to do. People make home-made music in their bedrooms all the time. Kids create new traditions that grow and evolve and have a real community basis. Folk music is essentially a cultural anacronism. It's a fun one with all kinds of interesting history attached, but it died out because the folk didn't want to do it any more. They chose to do other things instead. And they're still doing those other things quite happily, many *in the context of their local communities*. Kids should have the opportunity to learn about their folk arts heritage at school and we aught to be able to access the archives to this common heritage easily too, because it's a valuable part of understanding our own cultural and social history. But history is what it is. You're bodging together together 1960's ideology with pre-industrial revolution traditional arts, and attempting to impose that hybrid on contemporary society which - last time I looked - is far too busy with the business of evolving myriad new musical cultures and creative movements to be likely to want to stop and turn the clock back now. The only way that's going to happen is a) if we get some ideologically fanatical dictator in power who crushes all new music and arts with a jackboot, or b) if the only thing left standing after WWIII is Cecil Sharp house.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:24 AM

As I said ages ago: If you think your concept of free en-masse public performance of folk music will work - go and do it. Go on, go on, go on, go on.

Report back in, say, 9 weeks.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:11 AM

Today contemporary folk musicians do a great job of collecting and performing lots of horse dung and people are collecting it....wonder why musicians dont seem to be adequately compensated?

I am always amazed how so called folk musicians supported by volunteers and governments turn up on stages and play new original music almost exclusively. Sure some of it is vaguely folk influenced but sometimes you cant even say that. Seems like false advertising to me.

Folk music can not be like rock or other genres it is more like classical music. We have an obligation to get the old songs into rotation so that they have some sort of chance of a future active life.

I dont mind the occassional song that is new but entire sets and cds doesnt work. Anything goes is not healthy for the treasury off songs that we need to keep living or bring to life.

How can one hope that people learn a song or get into an old tradition if there is no access?

The real crime is that these commercial hit parade types take limited public money under the guise of doing something "Traditional" when clearly this is not the case.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:05 AM

I am absolutely opposed to the notion that we can not return to a configuration of culture of society that supports local family based folk traditions. Stupid coverup to justify the status quo.

There is absolutely nothing stoping people from singing and practicing folk arts and customs at home except the deception which is commercialized music and the conversion of people from practitioners to observers- audience.

The concept of audience started as being localized in the courts of kings, tribal chieftains and warlords, Abots, bishops etc.....Even there in the 17th century and earlier many at court were still practitioners- they played music.

No Way has evolution excluded the possibility of a true cultural revival.

What you may find is that with out a meaningful link to cultures to daily life that the present configuration of rock star style folk music, stages, amplification, recordings and tours will follow the world economy down the tubes and we will be left with an emaciated folk tradition barely able to cope with the silence of the festivals that will occur.

So revival is essential.

What is the impact of the folk event upon the real folk?
Is it working to do the most important work of actually training musicians, installing songs of the past inventory into minds and giving life to the living tradition each and every time.

Or is it simply keeping musicians on the road and minimal profits coming in. All the while the costs limit access to what is basically an entertainment system but its all we got on a large scale.

Sometimes you have to do more than what the audience wants or what professional musicians say they need to what te tradition needs.

What does the tradition need?

Adequate transfer of the culture through generations and the most durable configuration that of a home and culture based rather than a commercial and entertainment based configuration.

We start by guaranteeing access to all for all public events then we make sure that elitism does not govern access to stages and venues and then we bring the audience into the home based culture and out of the performance entertainment chairs.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 08:14 AM

"Why is it that you never see horse dung collectors in the streets of our cities any more?"

Hehe!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:59 AM

why then its it that after all this work and time people know fewer folk songs, participate in non-commercial folk culture less and many more folk practices are no longer practiced.

Why is it that you never see horse dung collectors in the streets of our cities any more? Seems to be the preserve of a few enthusiastic amateurs, these days, mainly living in rural areas cultivating roses and relying on fairly infrequent "passing trade"!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:39 AM

"why then its it that after all this work and time people know fewer folk songs, participate in non-commercial folk culture less and many more folk practices are no longer practiced."

Because time moves on and the particular kinds of communities which existed prior to the industrial revolution, within which folk music and song was an everyday part, changed.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM

Plenty of followers thanks.

Yes folk marketing came before rock but then musicians of later generations seem to think that marketing and commercialism is the only way. So we get lots of money making projects and minimal transmission experiences. Some but not enough.

If commercialism is the best place for folk music why then its it that after all this work and time people know fewer folk songs, participate in non-commercial folk culture less and many more folk practices are no longer practiced.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 02:26 AM

Hi Smokey.
To explain. WAV (Walkaboutsverse to give him his Mudcat name) is the UK equivalent to Conrad.
Yes he was born in the UK but has spent nearly all of his life in Australia.
Now back in Blighty, He pontificates on how the Brits should lie their lives. Much in the same way as Conrad does in the US.
If you really want to waste many hours of your life, their are myriad threads that he's started, Oh and a Myspace page too, where you can hear him singing(?) Deep Joy.
Please don't post to any of the threads.
Hope that clarifies things.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:08 PM

Several things are a real shame here.............

The first is that Don Firth has posted some fantastic things here in a place they will be of limited notice. Most will read Cornhole's initial bullshit and pass on by. That's too bad. I'd like to see an excerpted thread of all of Don's very relevant posts without my carping and making fun of Super Moron #1 Pissant and especially without the posts of the B.O. laden Pissant himself.

Also a shame that any of us give anything at all to this thread which might in even the slightest way give the tiniest credibility to Slumdog Artist or his faux art and other assorted junkpile.

Also sad that today we found out that a really fine 'Catter from Oz (Rowan) who contributed wonderfully here has died and yet this thread which needs to be gone keeps going on.

Truth be that Conrad is busy rationalizing his own failure to gain any followers as a musician or artist and has been dismayed over his status as a wannabe-neverwas.......Now he rationalizes and tries to come off as an eccentric genius which he also is not.........Sorry Conrad......Wacko appearance and bad hygiene combined with ridiculous ideas and dumbass pseudo-art makes you just another asshole with B.O.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:42 PM

. . . folk musicians copying rock stars. . . ."

I know you're going to duck this question, Conrad, but let's hear you name a few folk musicians who actually tried to copy rock stars. Who?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM

"There are many paths to popularity. The one which saw the folk musicians copying rock stars"

Never let a good fantasy get inhibited by facts -- the Popular Folk Music Singers were actually the Model which was followed by the Popular Rock Stars - the Record companies had seen what they took as a fast easy way to make a machine to churn out 'music to spec' ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Art Thieme
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:29 PM

I did a concert for the Baltimore Folk Society a bunch of years ago. It was a fun time if I remember it correctly---and a snowy day.

After filling the gas tank and having a meal, I think I broke even. That was about all I ever usually did. And, all of a sudden, I awoke one morning, and it was 40 years later. 'Twas a good time. If I'd done all of it for free, I would've been just as happy with what I was able to do, but I'd've been dead several decades ago.

As an old sailor told me once, "Topside I'm alright; but below the waterline I'm not worth a dam!"

That's it in a nutshell. And on we go.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:26 PM

"And suddenly thousands of young people (but not just young people) were buying guitars and learning how to play them, and singing folk songs!!"

.... and thus the reign of the Piano Accordion did come to a sad end...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:09 PM

Maybe that's the way things are on the planet you're on, Conrad, but not here on Earth.

What continues now, healthy and strong, is not a "commercial fad."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:58 PM

I wish I understood "the WaV syndrome". Is there a psychologist in the house?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:53 PM

I am very aware of how folk music became commercial.

It was largely mass market entertainment with a few exceptions where teaching of songs became a focus for some.

In addition to replacing gradma and grandpa's traditional folk with commercial amplified versions and performer star worship it also was taken over and almost obsessed with liberal politics. Yes a few exceptions however it was a political monoculture that dominated and used folk music for its ends.

In addition to traditional music much of this new commercial folk was singer songwriter so another way that family based culture based folk was dilluted.

While the fad developed it was soon over and today folk music is struggling to feed its commercial face as has been pointed out.

Additionally new generations for the most part still do not maintain a widespread effective guardianship of folk culture.

I am close to this problem having worked with both the german and irish communities of baltimore. It is all but gone.

So ok for a while folk music was a mainstream commercial fad.
As it is now over and gone it was not a viable way to proceed yet the commercial route is still popular.

Next argument please....

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM

Thoroughly interesting post Don - you paint a much bigger picture than I was thinking of with Britain in the late 60s early 70s.

Methinks it will all fall on stoney ground though.. they were all doing it wrong, see.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 08:00 PM

Smokey says, "The biggest popularity boost folk music has ever had was when it was electrified and marketed by the established music business. That resulted in a significant growth of awareness of, and interest in the more acoustic and 'authentically traditional' (whatever that may be..) end of the market."

When I first got interested in folk music, it was moving like a stealthy submarine of esoterica through a sea of dark obscurity. In the 1930s, Alan Lomax did a program on folk music on "The American School of the Air," an educational radio program that was beamed at schools. I may have heard some of these programs when I was little. In the late 1940s, Burl Ives had a radio program on Sunday afternoons called "The Wayfaring Stranger," on which he talked about American history and sang songs that grew out of historical incidents. In 1948, I believe it was, I saw a movie entitled "Glamour Girl," about a young woman from the southern mountains who had been brought to New York to sing folk songs in some guy's night club. It starred Susan Reed, who played zither and Irish harp, and, along with Burl Ives, had a couple of recordings on the market.

My active interest, as that of several other people I knew, was ignited by Walt Robertson, a professional singer of folk songs, when I went to one of his concerts with my girl friend at the time.

And AT that time, if you were to mention "folk music" to anyone, most people thought you were talking about "hillbilly music" like they played on Grand Ole Opry or "Modern Western Swing" as sung by groups like The Sons of the Pioneers.

Then, along came Harry Belafonte. He sparked a moderate interest in folk music, and a year or two later, Calypso.

Then, in November of 1958, a new group burst on the popular music scene when their recording of a FOLK song—"Tom Dooley"—wound up on the pop music Hit Parade! Other groups, The Limeliters, The Brothers Four, The New Christy Minstrels, and still others, started popping up like mushrooms!

And suddenly thousands of young people (but not just young people) were buying guitars and learning how to play them, and singing folk songs!!

Need I remind anybody that The Kingston Trio, The Limeliters, The Brothers Four, The New Christy Minstrels, The Gateway Singers, Peter Paul and Mary and may others were PROFESSIONAL SINGERS who, in the main, sang FOLK SONGS!??

They were slick, they were commercial, and they often flew from engagement to engagement on jet planes. And they were paid quite well to sing in big theaters, concert halls, and arenas.

When they, as happens with ALL POPULAR MUSIC fads were suddenly eclipsed in the mid-1960s by "The British Invasion:" The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Gary and the Pacemakers, Herman's Hermits, et al, the fading of these professional groups, who sang folk songs, from the pop music scene left behind it a huge residue of people who were actively interested in singing and playing folk songs themselves, some turning into folk music scholars and beginning to form the backbone of the enduring interest in folk music, American and British, that continues today. And in quite good health, I might add.

Although I had become interested in folk music and was actively singing for various groups for a few years before they came along, in all honesty, I MUST acknowledge that the greatest spur in interest in folk music came from these groups of slick, commercial, dress-alike, vertically-stripped button-down shirted college boys singing polished, highly arranged renditions of traditional American folk songs. And with people like Lonnie Donegan and others, the same thing was happening in the British Isles.

So—anyone genuinely interested in the preservation and promulgation of folk music owes a great deal to those "greedy, mercenary, professional jet-setting leeches" who went around singing folk songs for huge, enthusiastic audiences who voluntarily paid top prices to hear them in person and bought their records by the millions.

Conrad, I'm always more than happy to assist those who are groping about in an effort to find a way out of the thick fog of confusion. So I suggest that you study the following two pictures very carefully, until you can finally tell which is which.

PHOTO #1

PHOTO #2

I'm always glad to be of assistance to those so desperately in need.

No need to thank me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:53 PM

Thats right~

Becoming free folk events will broaden accessibility not rocket science

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:18 PM

... the piece that passeth all understanding.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:12 PM

Hmm, yes Conrad.. a false path.. and you are the Way, the Truth and the Light.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:36 PM

I am a member of the Baltimore group. Yes mostly dancing and when you go to listen to dance music there you find that the people are there for fitness with running shoes and sweat bands....bizarre....I had hoped at least for decent snacks at the break but no....healthy fruit and juice.

My time is now all tied up in editing of the new huge book then the one that comes next. Money does not exist. But someday I shall get back into storytelling but on the whole.....storytellers are a hard group to relate to.

There are many paths to popularity. The one which saw the folk musicians copying rock stars was a false path.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

Well so far critique has been quite weak.

The biggest problem is accepting that although some do practice free folk and have success with it, it has to be made the rule rather than the exception.

Professional music needs to be the exception rather than the rule.

No rules, Conrad. Besides, for every professional there are hundreds of amateurs, probably thousands. It is the exception. After masturbation, folk music is probably the cheapest form of entertainment available.

We need to accept that folk music as a way of life needs more attention and accessibility.

For the vast majority of consumers it's not a way of life, merely their preferred form of entertainment. It is, however, a way of life for the professionals - whose job it is to make it accessible.

Folk music has more cultural lifeway implications and obligations.

Than what?

It is not well suited to commercialism as commercialism limits its accessibility and growth.

The biggest popularity boost folk music has ever had was when it was electrified and marketed by the established music business. That resulted in a significant growth of awareness of, and interest in the more acoustic and 'authentically traditional' (whatever that may be..) end of the market. The point of commercialising anything is to make it more available. If people are working full time to increase that availability it is unreasonable to expect them to work for nothing.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 05:06 PM

They use volunteers, Don.. Filthy robbing capitalist bastards.