The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:38 PM

there have been turkeys in Britain for hundreds of years. They are older than some of the so called folk music.

Some of them are the size of carthorses - they keep them hidden away at Balmoral in Scotland.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:36 PM

"Where do you find a 45 pound turkey, Conrad? "

You guys are good! Keep this up, and The Fooles Troupe will have to leave town - too much competition....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:06 PM

Where do you find a 45 pound turkey, Conrad?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:04 PM

"The main English bird for Christmas in Dickens' day was generally a goose, and ... Conrad"

The Fooles Troupe applaud a master of wit .....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:01 PM

"Baked potatoes – more commonly referred to as "jacket potatoes" – which are wrapped in aluminium foil and cooked in the bonfire or its embers"

I can remember just putting them in the embers as a kid - before that stuff became easily and cheaply available.

QUOTE
So little you know Don

From Dickens, Christmas Carol (1843, England)
   'It's Christmas Day!' said Scrooge to himself. 'I haven't missed it. The Spirits have done it all in one night. They can do anything they like. Of course they can. Of course they can. Hallo, my fine fellow!'

   'Hallo!' returned the boy.

   'Do you know the Poulterer's, in the next street but one, at the corner?' Scrooge inquired.

   'I should hope I did,' replied the lad.

   'An intelligent boy!' said Scrooge. 'A remarkable boy! Do you know whether they've sold the prize Turkey that was hanging up there? -- Not the little prize Turkey: the big one?'
UNQUOTE

No problem about turkeys - ooo, that' SO good a straight line, but I will resist! - but the documentation of turkeys at Xmas is irrelevant to Turkeys on GF Night. I hope you didn't write your thesis like that ....

QUOTE
Stuff if with unpopped popcorn. When it's ass explodes, it's done!
UNQUOTE

You could give people ideas, Don...

QUOTE
Ok don there have been turkeys in Britain for hundreds of years. They are older than some of the so called folk music.
UNQUOTE

Hey! What happened to 'the last several thousand years of folk music'? Does this mean now I can't get the folk music from the Last Supper?


"We always do a sermon and while digging the turkey up"

The Fooles Troupe can't top that ... bye for for now ...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:50 PM

Turkey on bonfire night is not an English tradition, never has been.

Unlike pope burning.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:44 PM

The main English bird for Christmas in Dickens' day was generally a goose, and if Conrad had bothered to read "A Christmas Carol" further he would have noted that the Cratchit family actually had a small goose for their Christmas Day meal.

As for Conrad's idea of a "Fawkesian" celebration - "chants"? Where the hell do "chants" come from? Not from us in the UK. Where does the idea of roasting a 45lb turkey in earth come from? Not from us. The concepts are ludicrous.

The whole idea is as weird as English people celebrating Thanksgiving - it has no meaning for most of us whatsoever. Nothing wrong with Thanksgiving, I'm sure - but it's essentially an American custom.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:15 PM

Quoting Dickens about a turkey on Christmas? Pretty thin evidence for roast turkey being a traditional meal on Guy Fawkes Night, Conrad.

Perhaps one of our English folk will verify this one way or the other.

You see, Conrad, I'm willing to take the word of someone who knows, and all things considered, I seriously doubt that that is you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM

Not really, Seamus. I'm finding this whole thing endlessly amusing—in a perverted sort of way, I must admit.

####

In the United Kingdom, there are several foods that are traditionally consumed on Guy Fawkes Night:

Bangers and Mash
Black treacle goods such as bonfire toffee and parkin
Toffee apples
Baked potatoes – more commonly referred to as "jacket potatoes" – which are wrapped in aluminium foil and cooked in the bonfire or its embers
Black peas with vinegar
Potato pie with pickled red cabbage
Groaty pudding specifically in the Black Country

[Turkey? Where's the flamin' turkey!!???]

North America

Bermuda

In the aftermath of the Boer War, Anna Maria Outerbridge – a leader of a "Boer Relief Committee" well known for trying to assist Boer POWs in escaping – was so unpopular with the British that on Guy Fawkes Night an effigy of her was burned, rather than of Guy Fawkes.

Canada

Bonfire Night/Guy Fawkes Night is largely unheard of in most provinces, although it is still celebrated in a few places. The tradition was planted along with other cultural practices of British colonists in the 19th century. However practices have been modified over two centuries since arriving from the United Kingdom as the following reveals:

The night is also still celebrated in Nanaimo, British Columbia. The custom was brought over by British coal miners that came to Nanaimo in the mid 1800s. They built very tall bonfires – often 40 feet (12 metres) or taller, sometimes from "spare" railroad ties that they'd come across. Over the years in Nanaimo, by the 1960s the effigy of Guy Fawkes had disappeared, and so had the name – it's just called "Bonfire Night" by the local children. Now (2006), the tradition has largely been lost altogether, and the few remaining celebrations that are held are mostly in private backyards.[28]
Guy Fawkes bonfires are still burnt in many parts of the province of Newfoundland and Labrador. In 2005 the celebrations were widespread enough to merit mention by the provincial Minister of Environment and Conservation. Tom Osborne, Minister of Environment and Conservation, today asked the general public to keep safety and the environment in mind when holding bonfires this weekend to celebrate Guy Fawkes night.

"Holding bonfires on Guy Fawkes night is still a tradition in many areas of our province and we are asking those participating in a bonfire this year to ensure they clean up their area, especially our beaches, when the festivities are over ... We should always be mindful of the importance of our environment and do our part to keep it clean at all times, including events like Guy Fawkes night."

Every year, in the quadrangle of Trinity College at the University of Toronto an effigy of Guy Fawkes is hung by a noose. The students of the col,lege will often don their academic gowns as they observe the effigy burn.

Caribbean

In the Caribbean nation of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, the night is celebrated in the town of Barrouallie, on the leeward side of the main island of Saint Vincent. The town's field comes ablaze as people come to see all of the traditional pyrotechnics.

In Antigua and Barbuda, Guy Fawkes Night was popular until the 1990s, when a ban on fireworks made it almost non-existent.

In the Bahamas, Guy Fawkes Day is celebrated in the Fox Hill area of New Providence, the main island. Other islands have smaller celebrations for their residents.

On the twin island nation of St.Kitts and Nevis, the night is still celebrated throughout the country.

Colonial America

This day was celebrated in the Colonies and was called "Pope's Day". It was the high point of "anti-popery" (in the term of the times) in New England. In the 1730s or earlier, Boston's artisans commemorated the day with a parade and performances which mocked Catholicism and the Catholic Stuart pretender. It was also the day when the youth and the lower class ruled. They went door to door collecting money from the affluent to finance feasting and drinking. George Washington forbade the celebration of the day among his troops due to its anti-Catholic and pro-British purpose.

That pretty well wraps it up. Other than Conrad's, I can't find any instances of celebrating Guy Fawkes Night in the United States, or how it is celebrated.

Now, Conrad, you were saying. . . ?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 05:48 PM

So little you know Don

From Dickens, Christmas Carol (1843, England)
   'It's Christmas Day!' said Scrooge to himself. 'I haven't missed it. The Spirits have done it all in one night. They can do anything they like. Of course they can. Of course they can. Hallo, my fine fellow!'

   'Hallo!' returned the boy.

   'Do you know the Poulterer's, in the next street but one, at the corner?' Scrooge inquired.

   'I should hope I did,' replied the lad.

   'An intelligent boy!' said Scrooge. 'A remarkable boy! Do you know whether they've sold the prize Turkey that was hanging up there? -- Not the little prize Turkey: the big one?'

   'What, the one as big as me?' returned the boy.

   'What a delightful boy!' said Scrooge. 'It's a pleasure to talk to him. Yes, my buck!'

   'It's hanging there now,' replied the boy.

   'Is it?' said Scrooge. 'Go and buy it.'

   'Walk-er!' exclaimed the boy.

   'No, no,' said Scrooge, 'I am in earnest. Go and buy it, and tell them to bring it here, that I may give them the direction where to take it. Come back with the man, and I'll give you a shilling. Come back with him in less than five minutes and I'll give you half-a-crown!'

   The boy was off like a shot. He must have had a steady hand at a trigger who could have got a shot off half so fast.

   'I'll send it to Bob Cratchit's.' whispered Scrooge, rubbing his hands, and splitting with a laugh.

As for much you write what you have written on the gunpowder plot and your ignorance of the celebration is over generalized and simplistic

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 05:33 PM

You guys are keeping this thread going out of cruelty to the rest of us, aren't you?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 05:14 PM

Any book you have written, Conrad, I'm sure would be very amusing. But I'm afraid I DO know the history of Guy Fawkes and the Gunpowder Plot quite well.

I'm quite sure they do have turkeys in England, perhaps in the same way that they have potatoes in Ireland, but both came from the Western Hemisphere and did not exist in the British Isles until they were imported from the Americas.

As to roast turkey being a traditional English celebratory meal, I have serious doubts, but I will leave the verification or refutation of that to our English confreres who would most certainly know.

Don Firth

P. S. How long to roast a turkey? Simple way to tell. Stuff if with unpopped popcorn. When it's ass explodes, it's done!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 04:38 PM

Ok don there have been turkeys in Britain for hundreds of years. They are older than some of the so called folk music.

Don you reveal a general lack of knowledge of the celebration and the historical events. It was celebrated in east coast seaports before and after the revolution. I could go on and on and on.

We do not celebrate the plot but its discovery one of the most important deliverance of the English People. We celebrate the fact that the discovery of the plot enabled the Parliament to continue and absolutism to be set back. Get a copy of my multi volume set on the topic when it comes out. I will probably start with the introductory volume and "Faux" Music next year.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:16 PM

Gawd! It just gets better and better!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:14 PM

News flash, Conrad:    The turkey (Meleagris gallopavo), is large bird indigenous to the North American continent. A slightly different species is also found on the Yucatan Peninsula.

The British Isles? I don't think so!

And blowing up Parliament is a time-honored tradition in the United Kingdom, eagerly anticipated by Ministers of Parliament, especially the House of Lords, all the citizens, and even the Royal Family, who, on November 5th of each year, all sit down to a lavish banquet of turkey roasted in a pit and wash it down with many cups of tea—gunpowder tea, of course. Then, they all go out, dance around a bonfire (Prince Charles and his mother, the queen, usually dance the English National Dance, the tango, around the fire, much to the delight of all assembled), then they all rush off and blow up the House of Parliament. It's been an annual tradition since 1605.

Yes indeed! A grand old American Tradition!

Flunked both geography and history then, did you, Conrad?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 02:45 PM

The turkey is food but a necessity as that is how we can have a bonfire. The fire has to be put in a pit that is used for cooking. A code requirement.

Turkey is an authentic UK food.

Actually bonfire is a cobbled together tradition made from bits and pieces over the centuries. If people do not find it important for several reasons remove the one reason that retains them and it fails.
Too much emphasis on fireworks for example and not enough emphasis on the national values it represents. We always do a sermon and while digging the turkey up we tell the story of the plot. Keep all dimensions equally interesting and accessible.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 02:47 PM

>B>1100

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 02:46 PM

I have an important message for everyone participating in this ridiculous but immeasurably fun thread............Are you ready?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 10:59 PM

I think I know who the turkey is who's the star of that little festival!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 10:50 PM

You need the turkey to create the shit for you to deposit in the hedges.

Face it folks, in Conradland the traditions are inventions to fit the mold of "folk" in Cornhole's warped mind.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:02 PM

"cook a 45 lb turkey in an earth oven"

No known relevance to Guy Fawkes in England.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 03:56 PM

"That is why best festivals have many important reasons for existence. We do torchlit procession, chants, effigies, cook a 45 lb turkey in an earth oven, play music and have traditional recipes. We also tell the history of the plot. It has to be multi dimensional to have survivability."

Ha! Umm, tell that to Padstow, Abbots Bromley, Haxey, etc...

Maybe when tradition is a real, living thing, and not faked-up nonsense cobbled together from traditions and cultures that bear no relevance to the local community, it doesn't need to be "multi-dimensional".

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 03:46 PM

I revived it here about 26 years ago a few years before we got legal fireworks. Thats the problem if its all about one thing that is fireworks then the entire suffers. That is why best festivals have many important reasons for existence. We do torchlit procession, chants, effigies, cook a 45 lb turkey in an earth oven, play music and have traditional recipes. We also tell the history of the plot. It has to be multi dimensional to have survivability. You cant loose track of the historical significance. We also are all free. Self-help just donations. Got a half keg of beer donated from a craft brewer.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:05 PM

"just working on my free Guy Fawkes Celebration preparations"

Interestingly, we here in Oz used to mad over it - but when they banned the sale of fireworks to the public, it died out in a few years.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 01:22 PM

Dick Miles.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 01:21 PM

Conrad, you're a nincompoop!

You keep repeating the same silly fantasies over and over and ignoring what others—who obviously have more experience in folk music than you do—tell you is really the case.

I have mentioned—repeatedly—events like the Berkeley Folk Festival, and the Northwest Folklife Festival. The Northwest festival is FREE TO THE PUBLIC, is run by VOLUNTEERS, and the singers, dancers and other performers ALSO VOLUNTEER THEIR SERVICES. NO ONE GETS PAID. And this festival draws A COUPLE OF HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE.

The Seattle Center grounds (some 74 acres) is practically shoulder to shoulder for the long weekend (over Memorial Day) on which it is held. There are usually some 6,000 performers of one sort or another, and NO ONE PAYS ANYTHING, NO ONE GETS PAID, and NOBODY MAKES A PROFIT!!!

What the hell MORE do you want???

Oh! That's right! FREE BEER!

Proverbs 14:7

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 12:51 PM

I've been thinking about this "folk experience" you keep going on about.

At the National Storytelling Festival, John McCutcheon did a set of requests. The audience there loves John McCutcheon. He did a couple, picking them from a basket left on the stage, then picked out a paper and said "This isn't mine, but it's a great song. Unchained Melody." He hummed a bit, then sang the first few words. The audience picked it up (a southern, hymn-singing audience) and sang it with harmony. It sounded great. John waved his hands a bit, then sat at the (electric) piano and played a couple chords at the break (Only rivers flow..). The crowd, unaccompanied, finishes the song and applauds itself uproariously.

This was in a large tent (we counted - estimated about 2,00 people) and the acoustics were great. These folks didn't come to the festival for folk music, much. Although there were microphones and loudspeakers, they weren't needed at all. There wasn't a songsheet. It wasn't PLANNED. The music wasn't even particularly folk, although the argument could be made that any tune that is that well-known has crossed the threshold. No one gets to dictate what music or lore is important to the "folk" at any moment in time. I'm going to count this as a "folk experience" for myself, and it couldn't have happened in an open field with no bathrooms available.

And yes, the National Storytelling Festival costs. They use lots of volunteers. The town makes money one weekend a year. And if beer was available (I think maybe in one cafe by the glass), it might have cost too much. No one was drinking that I could tell. I'll go next year if I can.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:31 AM

"just working on my free Guy Fawkes Celebration preparations"
Conrad, if you want to have a Guy Fawkes Celebration, you're welcome to. But if I get it right, you're in Maryland; how many people there have any idea what a Guy Fawkes Celebration is about? To me, that just isn't those people's "folk tradition", and I don't get why you would expect any real response to it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:15 AM

I'm not sure why you think someone organising a festival would not want to fill it up.

I doubt you know anything about Sidmouth. Tickets, like those for every other festival, offer fantastic value for money when you consider the range of events covering an entire week. However it is entirely possible to manage without buying a ticket, as there are many free events and informal sessions; however since these events would not exist without the festival then most people would not consider it morally justifiable to attend without making at least some financial contribution.

You appear to be proud that your festival would make no contribution to the community. Making a contribution to the local economy is important because it means that the town welcomes the folk festival, which is why it has been able to continue for year after year.

One of the things I find most objectionable to your "concept" is the way it freeloads off others - you demand that people volunteer their time, effort and resources, and you expect to impose an event on a community while giving nothing in return. That's not sustainable, and it's not good for folk music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:00 AM

Town based folk festivals also provide an excellent opportunity for those who are not "Folkies" to discover folk music. One evening at Whitby this year, I was sat next to a couple from Bristol who, although they did not consider themselves as folkies had come to Whitby for their holidays during folk week because they enjoyed the events and the atmosphere. I also met someone who had just happened to have come to Whitby that week, had discovered the festival was on and was thoroughly enjoying himself.

These examples show that, contrary to Conrad's assertion, folk festivals do attract people to folk music and are not excluding them.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:55 AM

So you charge a lot of money to keep certain people out so that the festival won't fill up....yeah sure!

I know all about Sidmouth thanks. Key line: significant contribution to the economy of the town.

It is quite possible see above, to hold festivals that make no contributions to the economy of the town but contribute instead entirely to music. Even big festivals can be self help and free but all in the food chain have their hands in your pocket instead.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 05:32 AM

Large festivals expensive festivals keep more people out than they let in

This is pure gibberish. Any festival, whatever the size, can only accommodate a certain number of people. By definition, a small festival accommodates fewer people than a large one and therefore excludes more.

large venues do not provide a positive folk experience. For Anyone!

Tell that to the "vast majority of [Sidmouth] festival goers [who] very much enjoyed the 2009 festival, with over 95 per cent saying that they fully intended to return to the festival in the near future" (Sidmouth Folk Week Review, October 2009). Sidmouth Folk Week attracts many thousands of visitors who attend large and small concerts, dances, workshops and informal events, and who also make a significant contribution to the economy of the town. I can assure Conrad that this, and many others like it, definitely provide a positive folk experience. They also provide many opportunities to drink beer, but for most visitors that is not the primary reason for attending.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:14 PM

No don just working on my free Guy Fawkes Celebration preparations. Must refurbish torches next week. The carlo rossi wine jug landscaping lights worked great first time

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 08:58 PM

I notice that Conrad hasn't been around today. He probably snuck into the vestry after this morning's church service, got into the stock of communion wine, and is sleeping it off under the sink, soon to wake up with a massive headache and fully convinced that non-existent flies are crawling around, over, and inside his nose.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 06:22 PM

I wouldn't have given up catholicism if there had been a free bar!
Result!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 05:52 PM

I think I kinda get Conrad's model (considering he's dismissed all others that have been presented in some way one another) in a way.
Raves work that way, with people congregating on generic 'land' and having a ball (albeit simultaneously providing some farmer, local council and local police force strong annoyance), but raves or other err youth subculture are fluid and changeable: like real folk-life they are organic and representative of what people DO rather than what people are made to feel they SHOULD do.
Of course traditional folk song was once this way, but it is no longer. I for one, believe that there is a definite place for learning about folk music at school, and if anyone fancies adopting it as a hobby, well that's super. But the main thing is that kids at least know it's there, which is more than I did when I was at school. Or indeed pretty much until I found Mudcat.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 05:34 PM

Do I detect something of a change of tone here.

At one point there was talk of consuming a gallon of beer, now it is moderation in everything which is what I think most people who have contributed to this thread have been advocating all along.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 08:44 PM

Conrad, we're not talking about a sip of communion wine, here!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 08:16 PM

Access for all-yes
Running a venue properly means tossing out disruptive folk
No need to limit alcohol to responsible consumers
We have alcohol at almost all church events never a problem

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 06:33 PM

Conrad, your 'FREE paradigm' seems to emphasise the importance of access to minority groups such as the poor and those who drink heavily, but I'd like to know how your model includes other minority groups such as the disabled who might need special access not provided by a field. I'd suggest that this group is at least as important as those who live on a low income or those who choose to drink a great deal, and in fact they probably comprise a large percentage of poor people.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 06:13 PM

"The problem is that certain venues and individuals activly [sic] discourage beer drinking. Absinance [sic] is generally a part of their alternative lifestyle, liberal politics, often vegetarian paradiagm [sic] and it turns people off. A barrier. Let adults choose. If its legal it is their business."

Every year the church my wife and I attend throws a talent show. There are a lot of good singers who attend the church (lucky for the choir!), and there are a number of musicians there. I generally do my bit. Free, of course.

Although there is no written rule that I am aware of, and I know that many members of the congregation, including the pastor, enjoy a glass of wine or a beer now and then, it would be totally inappropriate to serve or drink beer at this event.

And you know what? They are always well attended, and people really enjoy it.

"I am in favor of individuals determining what they drink and the rest of the world leaving them alone."

Fair enough. But if someone gets squiffy to the point of disrupting a performance I am giving or listening to, including a very informal event, then it becomes my business.

"Venues often place the drinks prices high to discourage consumption. Many restaurants do this."

Did it ever occur to you, Conrad, that there might be a reason to discourage consumption during a performance that has absolutely nothing to do with the profit motive?

"Musicians should not perform in places that have this custom."

Frankly, for reasons already stated (loud and rowdy boozers in the audience), most musicians prefer to perform in places that put a lid on over-consumption, in order to discourage that sort of boorish behavior.

"Teaching is good but how much does it cost."

I don't believe Bob charges anything for his educational presentations. And I don't charge extra for talking a bit about the backgrounds of the songs I sing. Nor for conducting or participating in workshops. And I didn't get paid for the educational television series, and although those who watched the show had to have access to a television set, all they had to do was turn their set on and switch it to channel 9.

What have YOU done lately, Conrad?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 05:11 PM

Last night I attended a House concert. Nothing terrible, I had a good time but I can overcome adversity. I donated a gallon of wine which was well received. Again this was a good concert and I enjoyed it bur from a free folk perspective it had a few issues. No one is perfect we all seek improvement.

1. Fee- Reservations were required. =$15. each. this makes it a concert in a house rather than a totally accessible happening. That is an alternative to a concert. Nothing wrong with this and all the money went to the artist but $30. for two of us meant that I had no money for cd purchases. Could have purchased two for that. My recently divorced musician friend could not afford to attend.

2. The performer wanted audience to join in on the choruses. This is good but I could not understand several unfamiliar chorus lines and really wanted to know what they were. I was not going to interrupt the performer but we all could have sung much better with a handout. If you just printed the chrouses you could get maybe 10 per page maybe more....it just makes the connection of audience to music tighter and you can then go home and learn them as well. And its not expensive. On part of the page you could put contact information or a performance schedule.

3. In the course of the performance I had to endure three lefty poltical rants. I was there for music. Anti War, anti big oil, anti economy....dont need this. I have conservative friends with less patience who would have walked out. The songs related to the rant were secondary to the rant which ran about 1/3 the length of the song.
Accesibility is not served when an unbalanced political adjenda comes with the performance. One can present the world from many points of view. When it is one sided you annoy the people one half the total audience on the other side. Present balance and you will increase accessibility and it is not hard.

4. Most of the songs were written by the performer or by contemporary writers. I would market it under the title singer songwriter/contemporary music rather than folk.

The music was good. The songs were good for what they were. The audience was old. At 57 I was about the youngest. The event was well advertized. I am concerned that poor accessibility has cut off the flow of new blood to the folk world.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM

Well don we do have communion but only every other sunday. I occasionally have a beer or two for lunch on Sunday maybe once a week I might have more than two in a twenty four hour period.

My beer consumption has nothing to do with this topic!

The problem is that certain venues and individuals activly discourage beer drinking. Absinance is generally a part of their alternative lifestyle, liberal politics, often vegetarian paradiagm and it turns people off. A barrier. Let adults choose. If its legal it is their business.

Sort of like the athletic english country dance I went to a few years back. They had transformed the cultural event into a gym work out session- no they did not advertize it as such but these individuals clearly thought of dance as simply a work out. Of course no beer and only nice healthy foods...extreme paradigms scare people away.

You can drink as little beer as you wish. But if you dont enjoy the alcohol, and probably dont feel it after just one try non alcoholic beer. No need pay for something you really don't need.

I am in favor of individuals determining what they drink and the rest of the world leaving them alone.

Moderation is also culturally determined. In some cultures- germany, Ireland,moderation is set higher than in most parts of the usa. I grew up in Munich where I went to college. Just try getting one small us beer at the oktoberfest. Thousands each day demonstrate that the proper size of one beer is the Mass that is Liter. So it is all what the individual decides.

Venues often place the drinks prices high to discourage consumption. Many restaurants do this. Musicians should not perform in places that have this custom.

Some people will want more than one and it should be affordable for the venue and the music to be most accessible.

Teaching is good but how much does it cost. That determines the accessibility. Sure people with thousands of dollars can go to a community college or university and take whole degree programs in Folk music. It is however not something one finds at the local community rec. center for free or inexpensive.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 04:53 PM

I don't know anyone over here that has any kind of downer on beer with their folk. In fact we get explicit 'folk and ale' mini fests. But the other side of the UK scene is that folkies are often into real ale and actually believe in supporting real-ale pubs as these in their turn support traditional industry and local community. So it works together: amenable landlords host folk sessions, they get in real-ale from small breweries, folkies drink their beer. Result - everyone's happy!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 03:58 PM

Lemme see, now. . . .

Last Saturday, Bob (Deckman) and Judy Nelson came to our apartment for lunch. After lunch, we sat around talking and swapping a few songs. Bob broke out his Zoom H2 digital recorder and we tried recording a few things.

(By the way, Conrad, Bob is an old friend whom I have known for 57 years now. Bob is a professional singer of folk songs [who is currently teaching classes in which he talks and sings, relating American history with various folk songs; so he IS broadening awareness and interest in folk music*]. Bob and I have been singing, both independently and together since 1953, and we'd both been singing for a couple of years before we met. In terms of our professional singing, we are not competitors. As I have said above, we are colleagues.)

During the course of the afternoon, Bob and I had one beer each. I believe Judy may have had one also, but I don't recall. My wife, Barbara, didn't. If she ever drinks at all, it will be an occasional sip or two of wine. She feels the effects of alcohol almost immediately, and she doesn't like the feeling.

Before last week, the last time I had a beer was—I'm not really sure. A couple of months ago as I recall.

Wipe the foam off your mustache, Conrad.

Don Firth

*You say we need to broaden interest in folk music. Okay, what are YOU doing, Conrad?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 03:23 PM

Conrad, you said in another thread that you were Lutheran.

Do you drink in church? Or do you pour down a couple of pints before you go to church? Do you stick around for the usual coffee hour after the service (Scandinavian Lutherans tend to regard the coffee hour as one of the Sacrements), or do you rush home and rummage in the refridgerator for a couple of quick beers before the DTs set in?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 02:23 PM

It means that a general discouragement of drink is inappropriate

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 09:02 PM

"No excuse for drunk and disorderly. But also no excuse for telling someone to stop drinking either."
So, what does that actually mean in practice? Does it mean that no one has a right to try to stop a drunk and disorderly person from disrupting a musical event? Or does it mean that someone tried to rein in your behaviour at a musical event, and that you won't accept the fact that you were drunk and disorderly?
Did someone try to curb your drinking at an event? If so, have you ever seen them try to curb anyone else who was drinking, but plainly sober?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 06:25 PM

"What you are advocating is that if two or more people sing the same version of the same song, one or more of them is redundant. "

Many years ago I came on a piece that 'rationalized' the symphony orchestra, along the same lines - reducing the number of violins, etc anybody got a copy of it please?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 05:43 PM

"Some people are shy and enjoy things much more after drinking."

Then they have a problem and should seek counseling. Taking their problem to a folk music venue will not help them and may very well spoil the experience for other people, alienating them from going to any further folk music events.

"why do you insist that preservation of songs in the minds of a very few professionals is significant. Surely preservation is best when it extends to everyone. You just dont want the competition. If everyone had the songs what would you do- you wouldn't be special would you and people would notice when you missed a line. Standards would be higher"

I don't insist on it, Conrad. The simple fact is that not everyone wants to memorize a bunch of folk songs. I don't decide what people want. They do. All I can do is expose them to the songs and they make up their own minds. And even though many people, amateur or professional, sing the same songs, folk songs and ballads are such that not everyone sings the same version. And if they do, not everyone sings it exactly the same way. What you are advocating is that if two or more people sing the same version of the same song, one or more of them is redundant. That's hardly a viable argument in favor of increasing the number of people who sing folk songs.

Why is it that many people will go to hear the same violin concerto played by Itzaak Perlman, then Pinkas Zuckerman, then Gustaf Stern, then Hilary Hawn? Why do people buy CDs on which many singers sing the very same songs. Why would a person go to see a performance of La Bohème if he or she has seen the opera a few years before?

Because among different performers, even though they are playing and singing the same notes and the same words, each one does it colored by his or her own temperament, personality, and interpretation of the work.

And this is even more evident among singers of folk songs. Not every singer sings the same version of a particular ballad. And if they do, each one sings it slightly differently, in his or her own uniquely individual way.

And as to competition, I don't view other professional singers as "competition," I view them as colleagues.

Although it can always happen, I rarely blank out on a line, forget a verse, or sing a wrong word. In a full concert, I will usually sing about thirty songs or so. I properly prepare, like any professional musician, by practicing and singing the songs over and over until I'm absolutely sure of them. In a coffeehouse, I may sing four or five sets of about nine or ten songs each. Same with those.

Richard Dyer-Bennet had a repertoire in excess of 700 songs and ballads. Early on, I asked him how he manages to keep that many songs in his memory. He said that he practices them. All! And unlike many performers, on a concert tour, he rarely sings the same program each time. He rotates the songs, so he keeps them fresh.

I try to do the same thing. And when I am not lined up to perform somewhere in the near future, I sing several songs a day, making a point of going through my whole list over period of time. To keep the songs fresh in my memory

And if one should goof a line or a few words in a song, those who know and sing the songs have probably done the same thing themselves and understand that that happens now and then. More often than not, the rest of the audience doesn't even notice it.

I once saw Andrès Segovia blow a passage during a concert, then quickly cover it. I noticed it, as did a couple of classic-guitar playing friends, but it slid right by most of the audience who didn't notice it at all. And we who did notice it know that such things happen, and we wound up admiring Segovia's ability to cover the goof so well and go right on with the rest of the piece.

You don't really know a helluva lot about performing for audiences, do you, Conrad?

OH, HELL! I KEEP FORGETTING!!

Proverbs 14:7.

(yawn)

Don Firth