The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 04:58 PM

Cathy Fink helped to establish a union for independent folk musicians. I agreee. She's great.

My kids are grown, and I must report that we're all better storytellers than singers. We share music a lot, though. I give them CDs (John McCutcheon, Son House, Bil Lepp recently). They give me CDs (Gogol Bordello, the Wiyos, William Elliot Whitmore recently). A folk experience. And we go to festivals and occasional concerts together. For us, also a folk experience. Since we don't have lots of money, we don't pay lots. We don't associate drinking with music or stories, so we save that money. Without an infrastructure in New England, we'd be freezing our butts off 8 months of the year.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 04:29 PM

No excuse for drunk and disorderly. But also no excuse for telling someone to stop drinking either.

Cathy fink is great

Do you sing with your kids? at home? when not being paid to do so? A folk experience.

Sitting in an audience five miles from the performer paying them lots of money to be there and for the infrastructure is not.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 03:51 PM

"large venues do not provide a positive folk experience. For Anyone!"

Unlike you, I can only speak for myself. I went to the Philadelphia Folk Festival once. I don't know about "folk experience,' but we learned that a) Cathy Fink will listen closely to advice given by an 8-year-old child, b) boomerangs are fun, c) Pennsylvania has lots of vultures, and d) young drunks can really, really, really be loud and mess up portapotties. We heard some great music (although my kids slept through half the evening concert). We had a good time. We never went back, mostly because of the drunks. Would any of that be a "folk experience?" It's true that my children did learn how NOT to behave when they started drinking, a useful lesson from the folk at the festival.

Is the Old Songs Festival large? Or expensive (3 days with camping, $105 each, my kids are older now)? Many workshops and small showcases. Our lessons tend to be more musical and less random. And if there are drunks, they are quieter and cleaner. They use a lot of volunteers. I just hope they can afford to continue. We have a wonderful time at Old Songs, but I really don't know what a "positive folk experience" means.


So....who are those jet-set touring folkies? We want NAMES!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 03:07 PM

I said it a while ago.
This is like a car crash.
You can't take your eyes off it.
Sorry...Gotta go...Turn the heating on in my Jacuzzi, will you?
More Pimms please butler...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 03:06 PM

Large festivals expensive festivals keep more people out than they let in and large venues do not provide a positive folk experience. For Anyone!

I will not settle for separate but equal I will hold out for what is best and wonder why people just dont do it.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 02:06 PM

"they dont all work as well and more is invested in the many large ones.We need to reverse this with freed events dominating and big and expensive ones being hard to find easy just getting the right priorities"

Please - this is an English-language forum. Can you translate this into English for me or explain what "they" are?

We're waiting for NAMES.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 01:50 PM

they dont all work as well and more is invested in the many large ones.We need to reverse this with freed events dominating and big and expensive ones being hard to find easy just getting the right priorities

folk music is expanding very very slowly and needs help

Bettymh seeger did many good things one of them was helping to revive the music and make it a fad. But because it was a marketing fad the expansion did not last and shrunk back

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 01:49 PM

If anyone can name a "jet setter" folk performer, I can match each name with a whole fistful of names of those who tour, but do so by spending many hours behind the wheel of inexpensive cars with astronomical readings on the odometers.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 11:01 AM

"pete seegers success was in selling the genre to people who knew nothing about it and did not know they might like it"

We've seen your opinion of Pete Seeger. Are you now praising him?

I have yet to hear a story from you.

And yes, this discussion DOES need the names of those touring jet-set folk singers.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 08:48 AM

Quality= there is a spectrum of adequate (my emphasis)

I think that says it all.

Conrad, I will say this for the last time. Yes, volunteer festivals work. Yes, small scale festivals work. Yes, large scale festivals work. They all work at different levels and provide different things, often to different audiences. That is how folk music expands.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 08:37 AM

As for names this discussion does not need them- just look at the tours of those who claim to be folk musicians.
when musicians tour rather than keep the music local there are costs and those costs are passed along to the consumer therefore they are barriers. trick for performers is to build their local market- remove local barriers and they wont have to travel.

It all goes together build direct involvement teach and even free events will grow-but only if people feel welcome. Tone down the political polarities reduce costs, accept less than pro performance

I never advocated a beer bust however, I want to get rid of the feeling that those who have more than one or two arent welcome. If a person behave themselves no one should frown upon them or keep them from drinking by high prices designed for that purpose. Some people are shy and enjoy things much more after drinking.

Quality= there is a spectrum of adequate. We need to be sure that all on that scale have access are considered to have value are included. I see too much emphasis on the elevation of the super pro. The limited funding needs to be better distributed. Folk music unlike all other genres should not worship the super star. instead focus on the music and the intimate small setting cultural reality. Something you live and dont buy or rent.

amplification- dont need it research daniel o connell and his mass gatherings, tell your audience to shut up, make your audiences smaller just play a few more times. I tell stories- I can easily tell for 4 hours without much break. i would much rather tell to a great audience of 20 five times rather than a remote audience of 100. The difference of experience is overwhelming same with music.

There is a significant body of evidence documenting folk music as part of the lifeway. Sorry. songs of occupation for example. Study the Irish tradition. Study pub history pre 1945 when ordinary individuals came into pubs to play study 16th century england when all gentlemen were expected to play and instruments were available for them in pubs...dancing at the cross roads.....I could go on and on. This sort of music as lifeway rather than profession I observed in the streets of newcastle as well as at weddings in NJ in the 70s.

No virtue in thinking small don yes we can expand the circle! It is much smaller than it can be. Just relax and help it expand.

Folk music is supported by several legs all are worthy each needs to be as strong as the other. Recorded and archived music is only one. Performance only one, music as lifeway is one and that is the weak link.
Each leg can fail and we have to rely on the others.
do you know what happened to the Library of alexandria?

why do you insist that preservation of songs in the minds of a very few professionals is significant. Surely preservation is best when it extends to everyone. You just dont want the competition. If everyone had the songs what would you do- you wouldn't be special would you and people would notice when you missed a line. Standards would be higher

pete seegers success was in selling the genre to people who knew nothing about it and did not know they might like it. you want us to not sell the music you believe people arent reachable you seem to want to keep it contained. bushel firmly over candle

don yes there are exceptions but they are rare. We need to push for 100% everyone can volunteer at most one day a year or so. Easy a public service like jury duty it should be ensured by law.
The important thing about all volunteer free festivals-
THEY WORK
It is hard to argue that there is anything more accessible and positive and good for the music. whats holding us back- simple- even though as many claim there is no money in it- people still have their minds on the money and not on the music. Why else would they keep maintaining the expense?

Howard- there is some value in huge concerts it is however limited
folk music works best in smaller groups- this is not disputed. Simply have the performer stay for the day. Perform to small groups 2-30 several times. I have done this. each year I tell Irish stories a halloween to 500 girl scouts 30 or so at a time. The experience is wildly wonderful. The learning is awesome. And all you need to do is work. Clearly big audiences are in existence to increase profits and minimize effort. No excuses for this please it is not good.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 05:18 AM

Conrad, I am a singer and I play at least 3 instruments fairly well, and a few more to at least passable standard. While it's not my primary source of income, I do get paid for playing - since April I've done 20 gigs, and could have done more. I'm not saying this to show off but to show that I am quite capable of making music for myself. Nevertheless I still want to listen to professional musicians - mainly for enjoyment, and also to learn from them. I'm also prepared to pay to do so, because I feel I get value for money. Professionals don't become unnecessary just because people can make their own music.

Large venues present music to more people, which appears to be your underlying aim, so why are you so opposed? Here's an example of why large venues can be better:

Let's suppose that a festival organiser with a sense of humour has booked Conrad Bladey to perform. Through Mudcat, Conrad's fame has spread worldwide, and 1000 people turn up, all wanting to hear him tootle his whistle and see the amazing Horn Hat. At a festival run according to The Concept, only about 30 of those would be able to see him, leaving 970 of them disappointed. Is that a good folk experience for them? Will they have been educated? No.

Or perhaps he could do a succession of performances. Unfortunately, he'd have to do over 30 of them to cover all the people who want to see him. Do you really think that's possible? Or that people will hang around for 30 hours waiting for their chance? Again, is that a good experience? I don't think so.

Alternatively, he could go on a stage with a PA and perform once to 1000 people. They all receive a folk experience and get educated.

No one is saying that big venues are better than small ones in all circumstances - quite the opposite. However they are both part of a diverse folk scene which gives people a choice of how they enjoy their music and to what extent they wish to participate. I fail to understand how an impoverished folk scene offering only one choice would benefit music in any way.

Fortunately we don't have to worry about this since no one apart form him believes Conrad's 'Concept' has any merit whatsoever.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 03:36 AM

Don Old chap.
Just give up. Leave it. Conrad will never listen.
Probably pissed by now anyway.
Good luck with your recording project BTW. Looking forward to hearing it one day!
Just leave Conrad to follow his "Lifeway" in the way that he chooses...(What is a Lifeway anyway?)
I'm lucky enough to be able to ever meet him in my "Lifeway", unless he visits England. God forbid!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 10:14 PM

"I guess you should tell me why these things wont work. "

Okay.

"What supporting evidence do you wish to have? "

Names. You keep talking about these elitist, jet-setting, professional folk singers who collect their egregiously huge checks, then, ignoring their fans, go and sit by the swimming pool in some luxurious hotel, where they "Basque" in the sun and drink $15.00 Cuba Libres. Who are these people. Name some names. Inquiring minds would like to know.

"My generalizations seem to make perfect sense. "

Then you are the Lone Ranger. They obviously make "perfect sense" to no one but you.

"Lower costs- better access"

Quite possibly true in general, but even free events usually draw only so many people.

"smaller venues - better experience"

Then why do you want free festivals composed of thousands of people? You contradict yourself.

"cheaper beer- more can drink"

Definitely not a positive!! If there are a lot of people such as you in attendance sitting there lushing it up, with all the typical behavior that goes with a beer-bust, this would be a real turn-off to many people who would otherwise attend, but don't like being surrounded by a bunch of boisterous lager louts, and many singers draw the line at singing for drunken audiences. I, for one, am not opposed to drinking in moderation, but I really prefer to have my audiences sober enough to understand and appreciate what I am doing, which includes being informative along with being entertaining.

"performance with teaching is better than without"

Provided it is done subtly, without making it obvious that you're "educating" your audiences. Lots of people just don't like that and it will drive them away.

"anyone who knows a tune and can play it is good-= more can play"

This depends on the nature of the event. There are lots of gatherings such as the "hoots" I have described elsewhere and such things as song circles. Songs like work songs and sea chanteys work well when sung by groups of people, but when I'm listening to someone sing a ballad (a story song), I much prefer to hear it sung by one person as ballads are intended to be sung, than to listen to a whole chorus of singers, especially if half of them at bleary-eyed drunk! And not just ballads. There are a lot of songs that are intended by their very nature to be sung solo.

"when more play there is more demand for professionals to play at events if no one can play or knows the tradition they are less likely to call a pro.... "

Debatable. Most audiences are made up of people who don't play—or if they play, they don't necessarily play folk music—nor do they want to sing along. These are the people who prefer to listen to a professional: someone who has dedicated themselves to learning, practicing, and performing, not someone who sings merely as a sideline or hobby.

"sound systems are a recent intrusion into the folk world- fact didnt need them then and still don't"

Debatable. I have sung in coffeehouses and at house concerts and other small venues where a sound system was not necessary. I have also sung in an amphitheater where there were some 6,000 people assembled, and none of the singers would have been heard without the sound system. I've sung in large auditoriums with excellent acoustics where a sound system was not necessary. And I've also sung in venues with lousy acoustics where a sound system was absolutely necessary. Once again, it depends on the nature of the venue.

"Songs are preserved in several ways we are lagging behind in one of the that is keepin songs in the mind and as part of the lifeway. "

This sentence doesn't make sense. You must have left out a crucial word or two. And as far as "lifeway" is concerned, folk music is not a part of most peoples' "lifeway" and never was. Even in times past. This rural, pastoral yesteryear that you seem to be imagining never really existed to any extent. Folk music was a means whereby people entertained themselves. When media such as radio came along, it slid into obscurity and it will remain a specialization of a small percentage of people, and no amount of hard-charging promotion will change that.

The songs ARE being preserved in books, on recordings, and in the memories of those who are interested enough in this particular genre of music to perform it and keep it alive—and, by their performances, interest a few members of their audiences in learning songs and performing them as well.

You are not going to get the whole world all standing in a circle, holding hands, and singing "Kumbaya." It was tried back in the 1960s and, save for temporarily, with a very small percentage of people, it just didn't really catch on.

"Entertainment does not save songs it makes people happy for a short while. "

It DOES save songs, at least in the minds of the performers who sing them—and in the minds of those who are inspired to do likewise, as I was inspired by Walt Robertson back in the early 1950s—and in the number of people who came to me after one of my performances and asked if I teach. And I am not the only performer who gets asked this question. And who does teach.

And making people happy for a short while. You think this is a BAD thing?

"Why can't everyone volunteer? Some people do it? Why exployt them. When all volunteer the event is more accessible why not? (see barn raising, covered dish dinners, self help) "

Because not "everyone" has the time. And not "everyone" is interested. Those who do volunteer, are NOT being "exploited." If they felt like they were, they could easily "UN-volunteer." And there is already a lot of volunteering going on. As I have said several times before, the massive Northwest Folklife Festivals are free to the public, and the whole thing is run by volunteers—including the singers. So what's your problem, Conrad?

"I could go on. "

I'm sure you could. And, of course, will.

(For God knows how many posts yet, saying the whole blasted heap of nonsense over and over and over and over and over and over and over. . . .)

ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 08:08 PM

I am glad you find them controversial.

What supporting evidence do you wish to have?

My generalizations seem to make perfect sense.

Lower costs- better access

smaller venues - better experience

cheaper beer- more can drink

performance with teaching is better than without

anyone who knows a tune and can play it is good-= more can play

when more play there is more demand for professionals to play at events if no one can play or knows the tradition they are less likely to call a pro....

sound systems are a recent intrusion into the folk world- fact didnt need them then and still don't

Songs are preserved in several ways we are lagging behind in one of the that is keepin songs in the mind and as part of the lifeway.

Entertainment does not save songs it makes people happy for a short while.

Why can't everyone volunteer? Some people do it? Why exployt them. When all volunteer the event is more accessible why not? (see barn raising, covered dish dinners, self help)

I could go on.



I guess you should tell me why these things wont work.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 06:08 PM

I suspect most contributers to this thread will disagree with you, but if that's what you think, then fair enough.

It does not alter the fact that you have made a number of controversial assertions without adequate supporting evidence and what is being asked for is that you provide that supporting evidence.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 05:56 PM

No names needed

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 11:03 PM

You have yet to give even one specific example or named a single name.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:41 PM

Big performances are even just low level entertainment. Actually big venues as you note the benefit of small ones are undesirable!
Just a way to cram more people in and make more money.

When an event is all volunteer, no grants, all donations of what people have, look up barn raising, costs go down, admission fees arent needed and the widest possible access is achieved. Why would one want anything else. It is an investment that those above say pays off.Maximize access.

There is no "better" there is only right. When you keep anyone out you narrow access and that is not serving the music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 02:56 PM

A bit of dialogue from the sitcom "All in the Family" might be applicable to this thread:

Edith Bunker accidentally put a dent in another car in the parking lot of a supermarket, and much to Archie's upset, she (a woman with a sense of ethics) leaves a note on the car's windshield. An older man shows up at the door and he has an estimate for fixing the dent. The man is a priest, which gives Archie a few seconds' pause, then he starts arguing with the priest over the size of the bill. They go round and round about it, the priest trying to stay calm while Archie advances more and more stupid arguments as to why he shouldn't have to pay the bill. Finally, Father Majeski says that he, Father Majeski, should remember a piece of advice in the Bible:   Proverbs 14:7.

"Go from the presense of the foolish man when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge."

"What's that supposed to mean!??" barks Archie.

Father Majeski responds: "Don't waste your time arguing with an idiot!".

(Thought for the day.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM

Conrad, somewhere in your incoherent ramblings I can pick out a vague sense of what your getting at. But you keep presenting these things without explaining why you think the benefits you claim will arise. You seem to think they're self-evident - well they're not. So humour us and explain.

cross the board donations- all volunteer or none . That's a political and social philosophy. If you want to run an event that way, fine, but what difference does it make to the music?

wtf do you mean by "generalised emphasis"?

the living tradition is the most important part of folk music ... We would be more secure if it were widespread. More secure in what way? What does this mean?

We all agree it would be good to increase access to folk music. It's just that none of us recognise the things you object to as being barriers. But access to what? If all there is to access is small-scale events with the bare minimum of facilities offering performances of unpredictable quality, why should people bother? More importantly, how is this an improvement on the present system where as well as events like these, people have a choice of something better, albeit at more cost?

The problem is that you are focussed on cost without considering value. In your concept, people simply gather sitting on the ground in small groups in a field to listen to different performers. Never mind that it's raining, and they can't hear because the wind is blowing, and the performers are rubbish anyway. It may be free, but what sort of "folk experience" is that? An event where there is shelter and a PA and professional performers may provide a much better experience, which is much more likely to make people return, and if people have to pay a few pounds/dollars most of them will think it better value than the free alternative.

Serve yourself and never pay for service. That's a fine slogan, but it undermines thousands of years of human progress, which is based on people specialising in things they are good at. No one has the skills to do everything, so they pay others to do things they can't, and sell their own skills. I don't have the skills to mend my car, so I pay a mechanic - in return he may pay me to play music. We'll both get better results than if we tried to do them ourselves. Why is that bad?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 11:23 AM

We should tell, not ask, people to attend small groups, drink "loads of beer" and preserve the oral tradition of "several thousand years" of folk music.

We should really just ignore this, but it just keeps getting more entertaining.

"...loads of beer. I remember ending up late at night thereafter at the local fast food place with a few out of town musicans in an elevated state"...."not drunk in the least"...

Same song, 43rd verse,
Could be better, but it's gonna get worse.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:13 AM

folk music- all of it all several thousand years of it
stop asking now

That says it all, doesn't it? As I expected - you just haven't a real concept of what you're talking about.

Enough of you.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:10 AM

"folk music- all of it all several thousand years of it"

Well that certainly widens the field! Anybody got a copy of the folk music played at The Last Supper?, that's only two thousand years ago, quite recent really ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:05 AM

Lets see. I grab my instrument, grab any notes and music, grab a music stand maybe put it in a vehicle or pack it in a case and go to the event.

Unload what?

If you play tin whistle then you don't have much to unload. I may go to events with a couple of melodeons, a couple of concertinas, a hammered dulcimer plus stand, and maybe a guitar, as well as a few other items. I'm not including PA gear here. All this has to be unloaded, transported from the car to the stage, unpacked and set up, and the dulcimer tuned (that's 108 strings). Then pack it all away afterwards and reverse the process. Double the effort if PA is included and add time for a sound check (which could take a couple of hours if there are several bands performing).

Free music with most positive impact upon the tradition requires smaller venues 20-30 max. Break the big event into smaller stages and you win. Everyone wins and the tradition expands and the experience is much better.

Save money on the sound systems and huge stage sets.....easy.

If you cant see the saving and merit in that you must be blind.

Of course I can see the merit in small venues. I actually prefer them for most folk events. However I can also see the merit in big venues. Suppose you have a highly-regarded performer who lots of people want to see. You would limit the audience to 20 or 30 - how is that a "better experience" for all the others? That's a negative "impact upon the tradition", not a positive. Put that a performer on a bigger stage, with a PA so everyone can hear, and hundreds win and have a better experience. Isn't that positive?

How is the tradition expanded by limiting it to audiences of 20 or 30 at a time rather than audiences of hundreds or even thousands?

Large and small venues both have a place.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 09:52 AM

folk music- all of it all several thousand years of it
stop asking now

-a question of emphasis the current generalized emphasis should be inverted. (yes there are exceptions but overall folk music needs more accessibility and less cost and cross the board donations- all volunteer or none)Doesnt rule out pro musicians but puts them out of the center where they should be able to do better than before as there will be more access hence more interest....

-yes the living tradition is the most important part of folk music it compliments recorded and archived music and performance(entertainment) at the present time it is the most neglected component but one which helped folk music to grow in the past and survive many social upheavals and trials. We would be more secure if it were widespread.

You dont force music on people but through effective methods you convince them. Access is important- if you cant experience folk music at its best- small audiences, participate then you cant decide fully.
A huge concert does not convey the magic of the peoples music as it should (yes some people are exceptions)

Like brushing teeth- you dont ask people you tell them or at least encourage them. Like nutrition.....instruct....it should not be for folk music practitioners a "whatever" aspect.

I think that any music brought into the oral tradition gives it an advantage. First it is a good method of preservation, the music in the head is the most accessible music- hey you dont have to find the Ipod- it does the most good there and with everyone having a stake in it- the greatest number playing and composing the more will be the demand.

Historically the ordinary people would play on a daily basis or sing. When they had a wedding they would find a pro. If you dont have the music how would you know to find a pro. At least when you have the music you know what pro you want.

Why folk music- well thats my field lets start with that. I would suggest that priority be given to the older music but that is my opinion. I stand by the any music argument. But for this forum it applies to folk music.

Look on the internet- Bodliean Ballads, my collections, collections of music are everywhere. Try to include the old ones a bit more often than is the singer songwriter trend today. Widen the representation a bit. If you call yourself folk I think that is advisable.

Keep me out of it. I am fine sitting here collecting and publishing and playing my whistle and alto horn and trumpet. I have no place to go been there done that. I do not feel locked out of any scene. I could use more money but that is really not an issue. It is an issue for the many poor people who feel alienated from the high priced venues here.

Yes they have been there. Most importantly they are tried, tested and work. So time has come to put them in place across the board. Everyone will benefit- what is there to loose. It has been pointed out that folk musicans do not make enough as it is.

The only ones who might loose are the profit takers and hangers on and leeches. But then you seem to think that there are none of these anyway.

So why not is the big question. Create more balance, more access and things will do just fine. The pros will make even more money and all will be well. Self help, self sufficiency, home made. Barn raising not contractor built. Serve yourself and never pay for service.

Create a real demand other than mere entertainment.

And yes its being done in a small way. It needs to be done as close to every way every day as it can.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM

Why cant education and maintenance of the traditon be a part of EVERY performance?

Read my posts, Conrad. I've explained to you repeatedly that these are part of virtually every performance. Just not in the form you insist on.

There's nothing wrong with most of your ideas in themselves, which is why most of them have been put into practice for decades. There are small festivals without PA and big stages. There are free events. There are classes and workshops and educational opportunities and very often learning materials will be provided. There are even events taking place in cheap bars.

What we disagree with is your insistence that all these should be rolled up into a single model for all folk events, without, as Will says, providing any evidence of how this will improve on the existing model, or even putting forward arguments to rebut points of view put forward by people with many years' experience of running and performing at events.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 07:57 AM

Conrad, you've consistently ignored my very persistent requests for examples, from you, of the folk music you're concerned about. My requests are not made mischievously, or just as needling questions - there's a serious intent behind them. And this is what it is:

1. Your thesis is that the whole basis on which folk music is performed - particularly, but not totally, at festivals - should be completely altered and become as financially free as possible. Your "radical paradigm".

2. The rationale behind (1) is that this music is a vital part of the cultural "lifeway" and is too important to be considered as mere entertainment - too important, in most cases, to be left to money-grabbing professionals (as you see them). The living tradition, according to you, should be spread as far and as wide as possible, even to those who know or might not want to know much about it.

Now - if the world of folk music performance is to be turned inside out out to accommodate these theories, we need to have evidence why. This evidence must surely include some concrete, positive examples of what the music is? However, not a single one of your posts has included examples of what the music might be and why it is so important - so important that the whole scene has to be radically changed.

To say, "look all around you", or "ballads and tunes are everywhere", is just fluff - no evidence at all.

If you can't anwer these questions seriously and with hard evidence, then I can only come to the conclusion - as others probably have - that your "radical paradigm" is driven, not by musical or cultural altruism, but by sheer envy of others and annoyance at not being part of the 'scene' in Baltimore or anywhere else for that matter.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 07:35 AM

I grab my instrument, grab any notes and music, grab a music stand maybe put it in a vehicle or pack it in a case and go to the event.

Assuming that this is so, Conrad, what would be in your notes and music? In other words, which part of the living tradition would you be teaching? Do tell us.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 07:31 AM

Why cant education and maintenance of the traditon be a part of EVERY performance?

Resistance to this idea is silly. Each performance needs to have a positive impact upon the living tradition.

Lets see. I grab my instrument, grab any notes and music, grab a music stand maybe put it in a vehicle or pack it in a case and go to the event.

Unload what?
Free music with most positive impact upon the tradition requires smaller venues 20-30 max. Break the big event into smaller stages and you win. Everyone wins and the tradition expands and the experience is much better.

Save money on the sound systems and huge stage sets.....easy.

If you cant see the saving and merit in that you must be blind.

House concerts as I first found them in the 70s were simply opportunities to listen to and at times play music with a traveling musician who is stuck in the area overnight between gigs. These were informal opportunities to experience and learn the music after the main concert. Generally held at the musician's local friends house or local contact. I would generally contribute something. Sometimes the hat was passed and cds were on sale.

Now they are concerts held in houses by the well connected for the well connected. Some are well advertized others are advertized word of mouth by the good people- not every one is informed. The idea now is to make as much money as possible. I would not be surprised that the one I am going to is both dry and maybe even food free. In the old days these would often include communal pot luck sort of meals something in the wok and loads of beer. I remember ending up late at night thereafter at the local fast food place with a few out of town musicans in an elevated state.

This is the problem. Anything approaching non-comercial is frowned upon and hard to find. I was a student at the time and happy to become involved as I had no funds. Not now. Expensive and politically correct at the same time. Dangerous for the tradition expanding I think. (yes there are exceptions but not the trend)

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 04:18 AM

A group from DC handed songsheets out and did much much better than before. The people could take them home, learn the songs, buy the cd.
What is wrong with that? Nothing's wrong with that, if it's appropriate for that particular event. It's your insistence that it should be a model for every event that we disagree with.

Education can be entertaining so why not? Indeed it can. And entertainment can be educating. Why do you have such a problem with it?

Once again, your examples show that everything you're asking for already happens - in the appropriate settings. Everywhere, apparently, except Baltimore. You seem to want to reduce a rich variety of different events, serving different purposes and needs and attracting different people, to a single model which would suit only some - in particular, you. It's not simply misguided, it's selfish. And if Baltimore genuinely lacks the things which are commonplace elsewhere, then do something about it - you keep telling us how easy it is.

As for festivals - do you have any idea how much work is involved for a band playing at a festival? The actual performance is the tip of the iceberg. Everything has to be unloaded, unpacked and set up (how many folk bands can afford roadies?), sound-checked (which may mean hanging around for hours), and then packed away again afterwards. Why shouldn't they relax when they're not working, and have a chance to chat with friends who they may not have seen for a while?

In how many other genres would you get a chance to even get close to the performers at festivals, let alone speak to them? Do you think the performers at festivals like Glastonbury stick around all weekend and mingle with the fans? Do you think the Rolling Stones give workshops? At folk festivals you can usually meet, chat with, and learn from, some of the best performers in the genre, but that's not enough for you - you want unlimited access. Well sorry, but they're entitled to take time out.

You seem to misunderstand the nature of a festival. For the bigger ones anyway it is an opportunity for the audience to see many different performers, including ones they otherwise wouldn't get to see, in one place. This inevitably means musicians playing one or two performances before moving on to another gig. The economics don't allow festivals to pay musicians to stick around all weekend, and besides the audiences want variety - it enables them to hear a wider range of music and they get better value from their ticket. I thought spreading the music wider was what you wanted - that is what these festivals do. But if you don't like that, there are smaller festivals with smaller lineups.

I sometimes wonder whether your grasp of English is as good as it appears. A "house concert" turns out to be ... a concert in a house. What a surprise! We don't really have them in the UK, but even so I am quite aware of the concept, through Mudcat, and I know it's quite different from chilling out with someone after a gig - why are you so surprised?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:23 PM

Concerts can be learning experiences- just look at seeger and ligning out of songs. He had people singing along most every song. That is imho a bit tedious and tears up the song. I prefer the hymnal method- a song sheet. Almost anyone can afford a half page handout on one page you can get about 4 songs and include promotional info so it helps.....

A group from DC handed songsheets out and did much much better than before. The people could take them home, learn the songs, buy the cd.
What is wrong with that?

So much better than sitting there being entertained.

Education can be entertaining so why not?

Good for you Don but I simply do not see many doing that.

Round here bands play at festivals and then depart immediately either for the company of other musicians in the hospitality room never to emerge or off to the hotel or on to the next gig conveniently scheduled for immediately thereafter.

When I turn up it is for the entire day, come early, stay late, teach a few songs, direct folks to my web resources havent charged anything to do a festival yet. But If I am approached by a highly commercial one again I will charge money as they arent all volunteering.

Just signed up to attend a local "house concert" turns out it is not a sort of sit around and listen to a musician between gigs but a "concert" in a house $15. a seat. So much for house concerts being anything more than same old. I remember a few in Knoxville which were just people sitting around with a musician who had done a concert earlier in the day and was staying over. I usually brought some beer and we ended up wandering to the local Christal burger place and closing it down. But this time it is a good cause.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:26 PM

I can hardly add anything of substance to what Howard said just above because he is right on the point.

From my own experience, I had heard Burl Ives on the radio when I was a teenager, and had seen Susan Reed in a movie and had heard a couple of her records, so I was at least aware that there were such things as "folk songs." But it wasn't until I was in college and attended a live informal concert one Saturday evening in a restaurant half a block from the university campus. In about two and half hours of listening to Walt Robertson sing folk songs and ballads (giving occasional brief "program notes" on the songs as he went along), I was totally hooked! I bought a couple of folk song books and a cheap guitar, then buttonholed Walt and asked him to teach me how to play it.

And I am not the only one, by any means. Walt, by his singing, turned a lot of people on to folk music.

And yes, Walt was a professional. He had won a Talent U.S.A. contest a couple of years before, and had a weekly television program, "The Wanderer" on KING-TV, and he was doing concerts around the area. And he had two 78 rpm records out on a local label and later, two records out on Folkways (CLICKY). Rich? Jet-set? Hardly! The television station paid him a small stipend, and he got a percentage of the gate when he sang a concert, and I think he earned about $5.00 in royalites off the records—but he lived in a one-room apartment in an old house that had been turned into small apartments and was referred to by the tenants there as "Cockroach Manor." I think he paid about $25.00 a month rent. And he drove a taxicab during the day—to pay his rent and keep himself eating!

So, Conrad, there is an example of the kind of "elitist, fat-cat, professional singers" you are talking about!

And some years later, when I reached a point where I started singing for people and getting paid for it (and that included television, regular gigs in coffeehouses, and concerts in various venues from house concerts to singing in college auditoriums and the occasional theater or concert hall), if I hadn't also been teaching guitar and working at occasional day jobs (Boeing, Ma Bell, as a technical writer for the Bonneville Power Administration, and as a radio announcer) I would never have been able to make a living. Certainly not by singing alone.

And for every singer like Joan Baez and Theodore Bikel who could and did go from concert to concert by jet and receive substantial pay for their concerts, there were thousands of singers like Walt and me. I can make up a list as long as your leg of professional (people who get paid for what they do) singers of folk songs who are not making a living from their singing alone, and it would include many very well-known names.

And both Walt and I have sung at many of the Northwest Folklife Festivals. Where we sang without pay. As did every singer who came, including many who traveled considerable distances (one young woman from, I believe, Calgary, Alberta, Canada) on their own dime!

The first time I saw and heard Pete Seeger live was in 1954, and since I was a member of the non-profit Pacific Northwest Folklore Society that sponsored the concert, I know for a fact that he was paid $90.00 for the concert. The Wesley House basement auditorium, capacity 90 people, and the admission fee was $1.00! You do the arithmetic! That didn't even pay for his trip, but he came anyway!! And while he was here, he spent a lot of time with us, teaching us things. But not during the concert, because that would not have been appropriate! He did get people singing along on some songs, but they had come to hear him sing, not have him lecture them.

If things are different where you live, Conrad, then I feel sorry for you, and as I suggested before, if you don't like it, either get busy and change things yourself, or move somewhere else.

I know things are just fine where I live. There is a lot of activity, including such things as Bob Nelson (Deckman) teaching classes in schools and libraries about the relationship between folk music and American history, and Stewart Hendrickson's (Stewart) work in sponsoring concerts in coffeehouses and in his own home and putting out a monthly newsletter—and taking no pay for his many efforts (he's a retired college professor).

My suspicion, Conrad, is that you are far more interested in a) bitching, b) being hailed as some sort of messiah, and c) drinking vast quantities of cheap beer than you are in folk music.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:10 PM

I think high entry fees to concerts and fests are good. It keeps out the Hoy Poloy...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:28 AM

When I teach Irish Studies... Can't you see that this is completely different from a concert? When you give a class it is of course appropriate to give out materials, and this is what happens at many folk music workshops. But a concert is something quite different, where the primary purpose is entertainment, and people have quite different expectations.

At concerts the performers will invariably tell the audience something about the songs, about the background and context. They will go away having learned something, perhaps without realising it. So they haven't come away with a song they've learned by heart - so what? They will come away with dozens of songs in their heads, and if they're inclined to learn them they will have little difficulty in finding the words - from Mudcat, from songbooks, from the performers themselves. Those not inclined to learn them will have no use for songsheets anyway.

As with so many of your arguments, Conrad, you've confused one thing with another. People who are interested in folk do want to learn more about it, and there are plenty of classes and workshops to educate them. But first of all, you've got to get them interested, and the way to do that is through entertaining them, so they go away realising that they enjoy folk music and wanting to learn more about it. The one leads to the other: entertainment aids and encourages education, it is not a threat to it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 07:54 AM

Whatever folk music you want. Trouble is all we get is entertainment. People walk away from a concert with a good feeling buzz but no opportunity to learn anything. Would be much better if with every concert the tradition was strengthened.

When I teach Irish Studies- I could just tell my stories. But, I just tell one story and pass out story cards with short stories on them. I have the class then read the stories and tell them in their own words to someone else- works great. And fun. And when they leave they know three stories one from me one they selected and one from someone else.
They could just leave "entertained"

Not that hard to accomplish but it should be more of a priority than it is now.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:39 PM

"What is the status of any oral tradition these days - next to nothing doesnt matter what kind of music so actually when the free music revival begins since next to nothing is there it will be easier to sell the older materials."

Methinks Conrad may have been nurturing his muse in his favorite manner before he wrote whatever that is supposed to be.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:38 PM

"when the free music revival begins..." all will be given a free half gallon of bier which must be consumed to assure everyone's muse is blowing their ass trumpet

"when the free music revival begins..." anyone caught practicing to enhance the entertainment value of their performance will be made to listen to "The Best of Yoko Ono" until they see the error of their ways or their brains implode.

"when the free music revival begins..." anyone found wasting water by bathing more than once a month will have to run off copies of every verse ever used in "Down By The Riverside" to be used in the education sessions.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Skivee
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:14 PM

"when the free music revival begins..." elitist folk musicians will be the first ones against the wall. This will insure the spread of folk music.
"when the free music revival begins..." all Bladeylandians will be indoctrinated into the new economic realities.
"when the free music revival begins..." all songs decreed as insufficiently arcane will be replaced by the collected works of Ivor Culter, set to original Horn-hat sonatas.

"when the free music revival begins..."All sound systems will be placed on the rubbish heap. Singers who do not wish to shout their songs will be made to wear baldricks with the words "Inauthentically Modern" spelled out in bier stains.

What else might happen? Suggestions anyone?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 09:42 PM

"Firtg?"

Slip of the finger. Well, you know who I am. . . .

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 09:42 PM

"Don Firtg "

ROFL - I think it's contagious mate .... hehehehehehe!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 09:33 PM

Huh?

Don Firtg

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 08:00 PM

By lowering prices and other barriers you attract those who are not already interested in the music.

What is the status of any oral tradition these days - next to nothing doesnt matter what kind of music so actually when the free music revival begins since next to nothing is there it will be easier to sell the older materials.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 07:57 PM

the main priority for a folk venue is quite simply finding somewhere willing to have us. Some way after that, the quality of the beer is a consideration - real ale is mandatory.

I much prefer venues where the beer is ordinary industrially produced chemical crap. You get a more interesting class of punter that way, and typically they will be an average of ten to twenty years younger than at places listed in real ale guidebooks.

Real ale drinkers tend to be boring loudmouthed obsessives, and anything that keeps them at bay is fine by me.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 07:42 PM

Don.....Will.....Howard.....all the rest of you,

Conrad tells me it is the jetset pro who takes far more than he gives but refuses to tell me WHO THEY ARE!   I guess you guys ought to know some so maybe you could help here. I suggested Seamus Kennedy to Conrad but he isn't responsive..CONRAD.....What about Seamus????

I really want to know who these people are! I also want to hear his list of elitist folkies in his area.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 02:43 PM

" Such fear of drinkers. Funny"

No fear, Conrad. It's just that normal people don't like loudmouthed drunks disrupting whatever is going on and barfing on their shoes.

"Fear?" Well . . . perhaps a touch. A drunk is a graphic demonstration of just how low it's possible for a human being to sink.

####

As far as music is concerned, the "lifeway" of most people is to turn on the radio and listen to their favorite station as background music for whatever else they happen to be doing. Polls show that most people listen to rock music, then "easy listening" elevator music, country stations, and somewhere down the list are classical music stations.

A very, very small percentage listen to a local college radio station that may play a couple of hours of folk music a few times a week.

As Walter Cronkite used to say, "And that's the way it is."

It is the "elitist" "fat-cat" "jet-setting" "professional" singers of folk songs who are the ones keeping the tradition alive. After all, the folk music that the small college stations play was recorded by these elitist, fat-cat, jet-setting professional singers of folk songs.

So without them, Conrad, things would get awfully damned quiet in the world of folk music. And it might really fade into oblivion.

Except for the huge stock of song and ballad collections in libraries, both public and private, song books (many from the repertoires of elitist, fat-cat, jet-setting professional singers of folk songs you seem to loathe so much), not to mention the record collections of traditional singers in the Archive of American Folk Song in the Library of Congress, and in the collections of the dozens of local folklore societies, PLUS the many, many recordings in private collections, recorded by those same elitist, fat-cat, jet-setting professional singers of folk songs.

It's all there and readily available to anyone who wants to take a look and give a listen.

And who keeps the fact that there IS such a thing as folk music before the public?

Elitist, fat-cat, jet-setting professional singers of folk songs.

You can't cram it down people's throats, Conrad. If you try, they will not only wind up hating your guts, they'll hate folk music as well!!

You have to arouse their interest by entertaining them first. Then, if they're interested, you can teach them. Not the other way around.

Conrad, go do something you're good at. Pop open a brewsky and go glue some crap to the hood of a 1955 Chevvy.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 02:38 PM

First you teach
then you entertain

WRONG!

First you entertain.
Then you'll get them interested
Then they'll want to learn
Then you can teach them and they'll be receptive

you can combine them by teaching in an entertaining way
many people do it.

You're right. So why are you complaining?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 02:23 PM

Folk music should be found in places that are at or below market price.

It mostly is. The overwhelming majority of folk events I've been to are in ordinary pubs and bars at ordinary prices. Up-market expensive venues won't touch folk music with a barge-pole. But what you really want is for it to be in places with rock-bottom prices, so you can get rat-arsed* for as little as possible.

As Will explained much earlier, the main priority for a folk venue is quite simply finding somewhere willing to have us. Some way after that, the quality of the beer is a consideration - real ale is mandatory. If it's cheap too, that's a bonus, but not a decider.

That way more people can afford to enjoy them. Obviously a cheaper venue is more affordable for everyone. However you've failed to persuade anyone that an additional cost of a few dollars or pounds over a night out is a barrier to anyone who is serious about the music - all they need to do is drink less. That's not being censorious about drinking, it's simple budgeting. Since you are not willing to reduce your levels of drinking and eating, the only possible conclusion is that you are not serious about the music - so why should we take you seriously?



*English expression. I'm sure you can work out what it means.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 02:00 PM

songs and tunes in the tradition yes loads of them look around

That's no answer to my question, Conrad. You're endowing songs and tunes in the "tradition" with a huge importance - they must be passed on so as not to be lost - they must be incorporated into people's "lifeway" - they must be taught, for heaven's sake!

Then give me an indication of the music - the songs and tunes that fit into this "tradition" - if they're so vital to the survival of folk culture. I quoted - some posts back - a whole range of the music of America to you. What part of that list do you consider to be "vital"?

Congratulations will you are one of the few.

Emphatically NO, Conrad - I'm one of the many! You just don't get it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 01:52 PM

Folk music should be found in places that are at or below market price. That way more people can afford to enjoy them.

Congratulations will you are one of the few.

songs and tunes in the tradition yes loads of them look around

Conrad