BS: Scientology revisited.

Subject: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Lox
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:17 AM

.



       Three years later, BBC Panorama are contacted by some surprising
       witnesses and this follow up documentary was made.



       Panorama





.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:47 AM

Load of nonsence!

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Stu
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:50 AM

Or nonsense even.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:02 AM

nonscience?

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:11 AM

I remember it being on but missed it, what was it about? Haven't read much about Scientology itself either, can someone enlighten me what exactly it is. All I've heard is that Tom Cruise didn't allow his wife to make a sound throughout labour or is this just an urban myth?

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:19 AM

Mind controling cult.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Lox
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:56 AM

Patsy - if you want to watch the documentary just click on the link

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:11 AM

Just don't ever give them your name and address or have a personality test off them.
You will be bombarded from then on in. They don't give up.

Having made that mistake myself (totally naive at the time = didn't know who they were), the only way it stopped was having moved several times and they couldn't trace me anymore.

Dave Hanson seems pretty close to explaing them in 3 words.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:34 AM

And L. Ron Hubbard is somewhere laughing so hard he's wetting his pants, that these idiots actually took him seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:38 AM

South Park covered Scientology a few years back. Tom Cruise wouldn't come out of the closet and Stan, I think, was chosen as their new leader until he started giving away classes for free. A little heavy handed and cost them Chef. No sense of humor in Scientology.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:08 AM

And then there's the Jive Aces who play great music but seem to have been taken over!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 10:39 AM

None of the above has anything to do with the actual subject developed under the label. The cult-like organization about which the scandals and shock stories are generated are about on a par with the scandals of horny priests in some Christian cults--they are not a reflection of the philosophical propositions or the tenets of the subject, as it was developed by the original thirteen key players back in the day. Instead, a cult developed of badly altered teachings, political and economic infighting, and loud PR both pro and con.

Trying to get any insight into the subject from exposes in the media is like trying to understand the Sermon on the Mount by watching a big-money televangelist doing a fundraiser.

This is the kind of fairly mindless claptrap that makes me sympathize with Christians whose beliefs and undersatandings of the world have been slimed by bad actors and madcap organizational highjinks which have pretty thoroughly changed the meaning of the word.

While I have little sympathy with the cult and am happy to see it subjected to PR catastrophes brought on it by its own actions, I think the distinction should be preserved.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: olddude
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 10:58 AM

I was told when you use to buy a new Deering banjo they would include the Scientology pamphlets with it ... anyone know if that is true or is it an urban myth

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:00 PM

I too feel sorry for Christians, insomuch as scientology is a cult that shows where mind control of weak and vulnerable people can end up if you are not careful.

As church / synagogue / mosque is a crutch (and a worthwhile one in many ways) for many people, society at large must beware of what happens when cults believe in themselves a bit too much. Many of our mainstream religions demanded such adherence at one time and it took more than just the age of enlightenment for reform to start. The harrowing stories of imams convincing people to be suicide bombers or predatory priests ruining peoples' lives are reminders that a cult is a cult and controlling other people seems to be a normal if repugnant trait of many such organisations, if not intrinsically them all..

And for saying such things? I appear to be part of aggressive secularism and something to do with the nazis according the Pope the other week. His weird attack is no different to the disgraceful arguments put forward by scientology in the original BBC documentary, not to mention the logic chopping of their lawyers when defending the indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:49 PM

Dan: For a while the Scientology oprganization put out a booklet called "The Way To Happiness" which was full of ordinary little homilies guiding people to live happier lives--nothing weird, just stuff like "Brush your teeth", "Talk to your parents", "Try to see the other guy's viewpoint" and other such advice. Good advice but nothing new about any of it, really. Anyway, I believe that for a while the Deering people were tucking them into the banjos. I never saw this, myself, but I have heard of it from someone or other.
A somewhat pretentious title, I guess! :D

A

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:08 PM

They were asking banjo players to brush their teeth?

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:16 PM

That link seems to take one to one minute thirteen seconds of video. What happened to the rest?

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:11 PM

They were asking banjo players to brush their teeth?

I think the actual advice was "Brush your tooth."

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:54 PM

If a banjo player suggest I brush his teeth I reckon I'd be glad to-- with their banjo. :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Lox
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:57 PM

Sorry Richard - I thought that was the entire video.

I deliberately tried to find it on youtube as BBCi can only be watched from within the UK and I wanted Americans to be able to watch it too.

For the brits in the house here is the full film.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00v1ykr/Panorama_The_Secrets_of_Scientology/

Panorama

Perhaps somebody else can locate a version that can be watched outside the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:27 PM

I think that if you install a program called "Fairuse4WMV" (or something very like that) before you install the BBC I-Player it will let you rip an BBC I-Player download. I haven't got it installed at the moment and have only ever used it for audio.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Lox
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:46 PM

PS - Amos, I find it hard to have patience for a religion that was created by a man who had prevously published the view that the best way to get rich was to start a religion, and then went on to build one based on the idea that we are all inhabited by the ghosts of dead aliens whose spaceship crashlanded on earth.

He proved his point (about starting religions) and laughed all the way to the bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:14 PM

I always wanted there to be a religion based on "Stranger in a Strange Land". I don't remember why, though, since I've forgotten most of that book. Maybe it's due for a re-read.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: gnu
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:23 PM

Can youse in the US get the link? It's blocked here due to CW.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:29 PM

Lox:

Well, suit yourself. You are basing your view on two data out of an available data set of several million, so I would guess it is probably an inaccurate one.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:36 PM

Gnu, it's completely blocked here.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Lox
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:08 PM

Amos,

The founding principle of Hubbards religion was that it was a good way for him to get rich.

Thats quite an important bit of "data" I would say.

The rest of it is just the product being peddled.

I'm not buying, because, in spiritual terms, I could produce a better product after having my head shrunk.



By the way, you may also be intrgued to know that Scientology blames modern psychiatry for the worlds evils.

In particular, they blame the Holocaust on a conspiracy of the psychiatric fraternity.



I wonder if that could be because Hubbard was diagnosed as a paranoid scizophrenic?


... probably just a coincidence ...

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:30 PM

What is the difference between a religion and a cult? How does a new one get qualified as a religion? Some interesting perspectives.

religion or cult?

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Lox
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:45 PM

Interesting question Ed.

In a philosophical sense I would not like to be the one to answer it.

However I can tell you that in the UK, scientology is not recognized as a religion in Law, but as a cult (a dangerous one to be precise).

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Slag
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:55 PM

If you find a giant seed pod in your basement, attic or garage, do not go to sleep! I repeat: DO NOT GO TO SLEEP!

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Alice
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:58 PM

I read that article you linked Ed, and I found it to be lacking in what studies have told us about the term cult in today's society.

I think a much better understanding of what people term a destructive cult (rather than the old dictionary definition of cult) is the research in sociology and psychology that has gone on for decades since the time of the POW's who came back from North Korea and the mass murder at Jonestown by Jim Jones.

Because destructive cults are not just based on religion but can be formed around other ideologies, political, financial, self-help, psychological, etc. One of the best academic researches on cults was Robert J. Lifton who defined cult well in his criteria of Totalism.

I have posted this on previous threads here that discuss cults.

quote-----------------------

" DR. ROBERT J. LIFTON'S CRITERIA FOR THOUGHT REFORM
THOUGHT REFORM: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF TOTALISM (New York 1987)

Any ideology -- that is, any set of emotionally-charged convictions
about men and his relationship to the natural or supernatural world
-- may be carried by its adherents in a totalistic direction. But
this is most likely to occur with those ideologies which are most
sweeping in their content and most ambitious or messianic in
their claim, whether a religious or political organization. And
where totalism exists, a religion, or a political movement becomes
little more than an exclusive cult.

Here you will find a set of criteria, eight psychological themes against
which any environment may be judged. In combination, they create an
atmosphere which may temporarily energize or exhilarate, but which at the
same time pose the gravest of human threats."CLICK HERE to read the list of 8 psychological criteria

-----------end quote

Not all of the 8 are required for a group to be a totalistic cult.

Regarding Scientology, I can point out what fits -

Milieu control - Scientologists are not supposed to talk to critics, read the internet without the net nanny Scientology filter, or be in touch with former members or "suppressive persons". This keeps them in a closed "bubble" of info controlled by Scientology.

Mystical manipulation - This is obvious in the claims that the levels one can progress to will provide superhuman abilities like perfect health, etc.

Demand for purity - The constant self-checking is there to induce one to avoid reading banned info or being around "suppressive people".

Confession - "Auditing" is the kind of confession that in Scientology can be turned back against a member if they leave the cult. Members don't realize their records are not private. Many ex-members have exposed how their auditing records were used against them especially after they left.

You can go through the list of 8 and see how they fit a cult group.

Many cults I've seen use the ones I listed. Often the confessions can be used to blackmail the member to keep them in the cult.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:59 PM

I am sorry, Lox, but the fact that (if it is a fact) he said that at a party of science fiction writers back in the Thirties does not in any way whatsoever support your contention that it was the basis of his work. In fact his first three books were published before the word Scientology was coined and the notion of making it into a church got started.

The basis of his work was pretty straghtforwardly covered in those books. I am not inclined to quibble with ignorance, generally speaking, but in your case I'll make an exception.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Slag
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:39 PM

Correct Amos. Having been an avid Sci-fi reader most of my life, I encountered L. Ron early on. He was a so-so writer and I always say to myself, "Surely he couldn't have REALLY started believing his own fiction." But I've heard the spin around on that too, genetic memory and all. If he did believe it then, man without a country he became, he became his own Messiah too.

Excellent piece Alice. It pretty much agrees with most of what I have learned about cults, harmful and otherwise. There is almost always a re-defining of terms or "new" terminology that is exclusive to the group. Isolation is also a key element which is almost always associated with some form of abuse. This is especially true of wife-beaters and child abuse. Confession is tricky because it is thereapeutic when 1) made to yourself alone 2)made between you and your God alone 3) made within a sealed confessional, that is, one that is legally kept silent. Anything beyond better be between you and your attorney.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:53 PM

There is no question that the superheated obsessive group commonly known as "Scientology" is a cult in the most rigorous sense of Alice's criteria.

Not to confuse anyone, I have actually helped rehabilitate people whose lives were seriously dented by that organization.

My argument about the distinction between what the group is, and the subject itself, is simply to guard against lazy thinking of the kind that puts people in simplistic categoies without understanding.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Lox
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:45 AM

I too have had experience of people whose lives have been damaged by Scientology.

For example a woman who was an alcoholic, but had managed to overcome her addiction and had left drink behind.

As with most alcoholics, she went on to say the usual "I am an alcoholic and I haven't had a drink since ... x ... "

Great - positive!

Then she got involved with scientology...

They "cured" her of her alcoholism and told her it was ok to start drinking again and that she'd be fine to enjoy it without risk of her addiction taking over her life again.


Any real scientist knows that addiction is not a state of mind but a chemical fact.


So Guess what happened ...



... no ... Guess ....



Ok - I'll tell you ... she redeveloped her drink problem.




The fact is that these guys are crackpot loonies with far too much money who present themselves as scientific in their methodology and FILL PEOPLES HEADS WITH LIES.


Amos - however you look at it, if a guy says that the best way to make a million is to start a religion, then starts a religion and makes a million from it, that it consistent with the idea of wanting to start a religion to make a million.

I think that logic is fairly clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 10:23 AM

The closest we have come to anything like that was with the once sports presenter David Icke who founded a new cult. He set up home in Ryde on the Isle of Wight of all places. I don't know all the details about him but he had/has some pretty bizarre beliefs and there were a few who followed it. His claim to fame was wearing a turquoise track-suit not sure what that was to signify. If you look for him on the website it will make fasinating reading. Fortunately people haven't gone for it in their thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:42 PM

Hey, I weren't all the good at science so I figurated that I din't need to join in any church where ya' gotta know that kinda stuff but then I learned ritght here at Mudburg that out very own Amos invented Scientology... I mean, I was amazed... Yeah, I know thgat Amos is a purdy amazing person but to have invented scientology is just astoundin'...

But here' my question fir Amos... I thought all them church inventors were kinda on the right side of the politcial divide... Okay, maybe not the ol' ones but the newer ones... You know, like Sun Moon... Man, he makes David Duke look like a flamin' liberal... BTW, Amos... How can anyone be Sun Moon... I mean, don'tcha have to pick one 'er the other??? Man, this religion stuff put hurt on my head...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:53 PM

"..our very own Amos invented Scientology."

Aw, 'cmon Bobert...that's not a nice thing to even joke about. He most certainly did NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 03:42 PM

Hey, Bill... It was right here on Mudcat!!! I mean, that makes it true, don't it???

Awwww, he knows I was funnin' with him...

But what if he did??? Is it evil??? I don't think so...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Alice
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:42 PM

Bobert, if you don't think it is evil, then you have not had much experience with it and the many people who have died or had their health and lives damaged by it.

Lisa McPherson memorial page

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:36 PM

Thanks, Alice...

This has been completly off my radar screen...

I meant no offense my good friend, Amos...

My bad...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Alice
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM

Being in the US, I could not open the BBC link to watch this new documentary, but on You Tube, there is an interview of John Sweeney regarding this revisiting of what happened now that Rinder is out of CoS.

Sweeney interview, Secrets of Scientology

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 05:33 PM

A little history about the cult of Scientology is in order. It was literally invented by L. Ron Hubbard in a book called "Dianetics" in which he claims that every event in one's life is recorded cellularly and that the way to remove life's obstacles is to travel back to the unpleasant events in life called "engrams". With a guiding therapist, the "traveler" relives the events that caused the "engrams" and when it is played over and over, the "engram" loses its potency. When all "engrams" are lessened in power, the person is said to be a "clear". Not implausible, perhaps but "out there".

So, L. Ron (who by the way was pretty aggressive and packed heat) decided that one's own life wasn't enough so hence "past life regression". Now you have Scientology as an outgrowth of Dianetics. Now he invents a new god (Xena) and makes up some peculiar machines such as "e-meters" to monitor the regressive "travel". So this borders on a variation of "reincarnation". So L. Ron true to form of every cult leader goes nuts. He's a power broker.

Scientology reinforces the cultish quality of some religious convictions.

The "Cult" is always defined as an organization that when a member leaves, there are always reprisals. Often, communication with that member is no longer honored
by the cult membership. It's a form of "shunning" which is an old religious practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 06:05 PM

That's XENU (not Xena)
http://xenu.net/ exposing Scientology

and
xenutv.com ...videos of those who have left the cult.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 06:10 PM

Mind Control Made Easy video explanation from Xenu TV

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 06:32 PM

I liked Xena better - she was cute and sexy ... ooops - did I say that out loud?

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 06:50 PM

Yeah, Xena is definitely better looking than Xenu.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: ragdall
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 10:03 PM

I found this bit about the Deering banjo connection on a blog when I googled: Deering banjos Scientology

rags

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: Slag
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 11:49 PM

He "invented" a crude psychogalvanometer with which to read "engrams". These were little more than soup cans with copper wires attache to a voltmeter which read in microvolts. I understand things have become a little more sophisticated since then but the concept is the same. The respondent would grasp the cans and answer those probing questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientology revisited.
From: LadyJean
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:54 PM

I've read Dianetics. It makes about as much sense as Freud, and I suspect has done a little less harm.

I think it's 500 Christian Scientists die every year because they decided to rely on prayer instead of medicine.

Of course, if you're uninsured, prayer is a whole lot cheaper.