BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday-13 Oct 1925

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Mikehunt
Date: 27 May 11 - 03:13 PM

Margaret Thatcher impersonator, comedienne and actress Janet Brown, has died.

Actress and comic Janet Brown, best known for her impersonation of Lady Thatcher, died today.

Her agent said the 87-year-old died in her sleep in a nursing home in Hove, East Sussex, after a short illness.

In a career going back to the 1930s, she worked with stars including TV star Hughie Green, comedy legend Tony Hancock and Minder star George Cole.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 07:33 AM

All Prime Ministers are like England Football managers. We all know what a pasting they get.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 07:22 AM

Yes I remember John Smith good man and sadly missed.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 06:46 AM

"All political careers end in failure"

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 06:38 AM

There is no doubt that Gordon Brown was inept as a communicator, but it goes back to my 'head/heart' definition.
Both Maggie and Tony were 'head' politicians, they saw it as a business, more than a belief.
Those who are 'heart' politicians, never really do very well in the cut throat world of 'Real Politik'
Gordon was on casualty, Michael Foot was another.
Just think back to the list labelled 'Best PM/Leader, we NEVER had. People like John Smith, and Ian Macleod, conviction politicians to a man.
There is a certainty that a governement made up of people who were ruled by their hearts, and not their heads, would fail miserably.
Sadly.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 05:38 AM

I have a photo. of her aboard a Hercules, and me as one of those preparing to jump.
I was doing that for 27 years, and no other politician ever showed any interest in what we were doing.
She was leader of opposition then.
Another time at RAF Northolt when she was PM. We had our containers and parachutes lined up when we were told to move it all because she was arriving.
We were a bit put out and grumbled.
She flew in from some conference and would have been looking forward to getting home, but on seeing us she stopped the car and had a word and a handshake with every man.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 04:29 AM

There are many ways that life today is better than that led by our fathers and grandfathers, and many ways in which it's worse, but I don't think thirty years of Thatcherism has done my children and grandchildren any favours. Most of her policies were to reverse those of Winston Churchill.

As for socialism, I don't see what it has to do with British politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 04:05 AM

Politicians do set the scene and enable through legislation, but Teribus is putting too much emphasis on the role of a politician.

Enhancing of life expectations is achieved by a combination of the expertise of entrepreneurs and their backers combined with the will of people to embrace change.

Thatcher is an example of what can happen when political leaders over step the mark and try interfering too much with society. Power corrupts etc etc. As I said above, she called me and my workmates "the enemy within." Now then, let's see, I wonder if you can think of other leaders of countries who started by saying such things about sections of the society they were supposed to be working for? (I'll give you a clue, think murdering genocidal despots through the years...)

A totalitarian witch who if she had been clever enough would have changed politics alright, but not in the way some rose tinted spectacle wearing pillocks think. Geoffrey Howe doesn't strike me as the saviour of freedom, but his resignation speech makes you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 03:56 AM

The only good thing going for her was that she was a good strong speaker that commanded an audience. I do not like the lady and never will but perhaps all the leaders could learn from her professionalism if only in speaking. She would never have been caught out making comments about passers-by with microphones accidently still switched on as Gordon Brown did. His gaff was that he was too rough around the edges and surprisingly niave and to add to that Tony Blair writes a book slagging him off!

Politicians today seem to be so weak, any piece of bad publicity financial or sexual preferences knocks them for six.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: s&r
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 03:44 AM

Leaders inspire, and people follow with good grace.

Dictators order, and people acquiesce with reluctance.

Thatcher was no leader.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 02:18 AM

"Like the vast majority of politicians, the changes she made were all for the worse. While there may have been some who've changed things for the better, I can't think of anyone who's done it deliberately. - Dave MacKenzie

Now as I look back through the mists of time I can see the evidence of mankinds ever decreasing condition and the stripping away of every right he ever had - Seriously??? Naw, we are now healthier, live longer, are taken care of within bounds, not seen many "Workhouses" of late, slavery has been abolished and children are no longer rammed up chimneys or forced down coalmines. In short Dave your observation is a complete and utter crock.

The life I now lead is much, much better than the one enjoyed by my Grandfather, and guess what? Politicians had a great deal to do with that. Some are a damn sight better than others, as witnessed by the last thirteen years in the UK, where the country suffered under a particularly lousy crop. One thing you should expect from our elected government is a thing called "Leadership" and above all else Margaret Thatcher did "Lead" even when she knew that it would be unpopular and against the best interests of her Political Party she still took the decisions that needed to be taken.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill

He was right judging by some of the comments on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 07:11 PM

Like the vast majority of politicians, the changes she made were all for the worse. While there may have been some who've changed things for the better, I can't think of anyone who's done it deliberately.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,cujimmy
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 06:57 PM

Look at these quotes in the Guardian from Rupert Murdoch - what planet is he on -

This evening, I speak as more than an admirer of Margaret Thatcher. I speak as a person grateful for the opportunities this nation has given me – and the opportunities she has created for every other individual in Great Britain.

How quickly too many people have forgotten that she has not only changed Britain, but, along with Ronald Reagan, changed the world, much, much for the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 03:18 PM

Looks like David Cameron is in for a lifetime of vituperation from a similar source.
Bread and cicuses matey, bread and circuses

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 02:52 PM

The winner should have ben a urinal.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,kevin
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 01:12 PM

Heard recently of a competition to design a memorial for her grave when the day finally arrives. The winner was a dance-floor.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 04:36 AM

(wink)

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 04:01 AM

>>I have, however, managed to avoid the tiresome pomposity and smugness that some people attract<<

Sez U, Silas. Could have fooled me.

Best regards

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 03:35 AM

Maggie was a war monger, her close pal was Pinocet that is a scary thought for a start she must have known a great deal about him. Equally Blair is as guilty over the episode of Iraq but like Thatcher he had the gift of the gab. Perhaps he had a 'secret stiffy' for her too.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM

"the idiots couldn't control her."

Apparently our European partners didn't have this problem. I remember reading about how they would get her focussed on one point that they were happy to concede, then do everything they wanted while she was convinced that she had won a great diplomatic victory.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 10:01 AM

The vitriol spilled on this thread, including by me, does make me think...

Was she really that powerful? Did she really plan things and push forward ideology over pragmatism?

Actually no.

As I recall, Nicholas Ridley, Norman Tebbit, Sir Keith Joseph et al. They were the architects of what we call Thatcherism. She was the willing front for greater minds than hers. She knew how to chemically extract the cream from the top of a pint of milk and possibly how to do the books in a small grocery, but she delivered the failed dream of others.

The problem was... the idiots couldn't control her.

Interestingly, you can read up on the infection rates and inspections at Cromwell Hospital on the CQC website. Better get that cheap Pomagne in the fridge then.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 05:40 AM

Oh dear, how dare the Argies start a war, just when we thought we had a faint chance of getting elected!

:)

Gawd, why are so many Socialists mean and nasty. They can neither lose or win, gracefully.
It is truly a belief of the heart, and not the head.
The collision of idealism, and pragmatism.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 04:11 AM

"military prudence" and genuine need are two wholly different things. Remember Ali G's "So nuke 'em while dey is weak"?

Thatcher's conduct of the Falklands situation was doubtlessly a piece of electioneering posturing. Murder for votes is not acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 03:48 AM

T MtheGm

Anti-war plattitudes? Where?

I am certainly against a war enaged upon for party political reasons.

I am not a young man, whilst not as old as you (and I don't subscribe to the view that age brings wisdom) I am approaching my 60th year slightly quicker than I really want to. I have, however, managed to avoid the tiresome pomposity and smugness that some people attract as age takes its toll.

I do however, apologise most humbly for my poor spelling, it must be qute distressing for you to have to wade through my awful spelling and grammar in order to try to extract the point I am making from my writings.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: s&r
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:46 PM

From Sky:

Lady Thatcher was taken to the private Bupa Cromwell Hospital in west London.

No surprise there then

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 05:37 PM

=== If you are seriously defnding this dispicable action then you are no better than her. ===

I have made no claim to be 'better than her', whatever that is supposed to mean, Silas. You have denounced the action as 'despicable' [note correct spelling please], to be contradicted by a chorus of better informed counter-opinion; & have now fallen back on constantly reiterated mouthing of anti-war platitudes. We all know that war is not nice, thanks ~~ especially those of us who have really lived thru it: I was in London thruout both blitzes in WWII, & was required to undergo the boredom, futility & worse [3 of my training platoon were killed in Korea or Cyprus, & a friend at college had one leg and an MC] of National Service if that is any interest to you. Your generation don't know you are born, & you clearly know little of what you gab, young man. But it [i.e. war]is one of those phenomena for which humanity is still seeking a better idea after countless æons of finding none. I don't imagine that your generation will be much more sucessful.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 02:45 PM

So...Mrs Thatcher was no worse morally than any other politician?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:58 PM

Well, I suppose it depends on how fast the ship was going in the first place.

Please do not think for one moment that I am in any way denigratinmg the service men and women who were there - far from it. The point is, they should not have been put through the horror of the war any more that the service personel in Iraq ad Afghanistan. Bastard self seeking politicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:52 PM

And, BTW, I'm no Thatcher-Lover (see my earlier posts). But I'd rather we supported those whose responsibility is the defence of our nation than still be slagging them off thirty years later. And I'm talking there about the servicemen and others who actually went out and got their hands dirty doing the fighting, not the politicians sitting on their fat arses in London.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:48 PM

"Well, Backwoodsman, I reckon it would probably take an hour or so to turn the ship round,"

It would take considerably less than an hour. Ten minutes would see a 180-deg. turn completed in a vessel of that size. But the time is irrelevant - the fact is that it was a manoeuvrable asset which was capable of attacking British forces.

"but that is not really the point is it?"

You're the one who tried to use the fact that it was 'sailing away' as a criticism of the decision to attack. I'm simply demonstrating that its course is easily changed, and therefore irrelevant so, yes, that is the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM

Well, Backwoodsman, I reckon it would probably take an hour or so to turn the ship round, but that is not really the point is it?

The point is that it was not and could never have been a threat as it was being followed by a british submarine. You may or may ot be aware of the Peruvian peace plan that was in place and the possible consequences for Britain if it had been allowed to mediate.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:16 PM

So you're not contesting that the fact that it was 'sailing away' is a red herring - just trying to split hairs over the few minutes that it would take to reverse course eh?

So, for the sake of argument, let's assume it took double that time - ten minutes, say (it certainly wouldn't take any longer than that). How much less of a threat to British forces do you estimate that would make it?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:12 PM

The Belgrano was about 40 years old, it was sailing away from the area, it was being shadowed by the British submarine HMS Conqueror and was no immidiate threat. If it had turned and started steaming towards the area then far enough but it didn't. It was not aware of the Briish submarine presence and it's crew were mainly young conscripts.

There has still been no satisfactory explniation of the 'loss' of the control room log book off the Conqueror either - if that does not stink of fish, then I don't know what does.

If you are seriously defnding this dispicable action then you are no better than her.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:09 PM

read about it if you are not old enough to remember, ===

I am 78 Silas; don't be silly, there is a dear fellow.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:04 PM

"The sinking of the Belgrano became a cause célèbre for anti-war campaigners in Britain. This was for a variety of reasons, including because the ship was outside the 200 mile (320 kilometre) Total Exclusion Zone that the British had declared around the Falkland Islands, because the ship was on a westerly heading at the time it was attacked, and because a Peruvian peace proposal was still on the table at the time of the attack.

However, the sinking of the Belgrano was justified under international law, as the heading of a belligerent naval vessel has no bearing on its status. Furthermore, the Hector Bonzo, the captain of the Belgrano, has himself testified that the attack was legitimate for this reason. The fact that the ship was outside the British declared Total Exclusion Zone does not affect this analysis, especially since the British had informed Argentina on April 23rd, that Argentine ships and aircraft outside the Exclusion Zone could be attacked if they posed a threat to the British task force, and senior figures in the Argentine Navy have made clear that they understood this message; for example, Argentine Rear-Admiral Allara who commanded the Belgrano's task group said "After that message of 23 April, the entire South Atlantic was an operational theatre for both sides. We, as professionals, said it was just too bad that we lost the Belgrano.". Finally, in 1994, the Argentine government conceded that the sinking of the Belgrano was a "legal act of war." "

The USS Phoenix, later to become the Belrano had 4 screws, it is possible to put your starboard engines in reverse, while keep the port ones Full Ahead, put your helm hard to starboard, and this will bring her about pretty smartly.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:44 AM

Five minutes? Really? I think not. A 12,000 ton ship turn round in five min!

Let us hae some more of your expert sea - wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:39 AM

"the Belgrano was outside the 200 mile exclusion zone and sailing away from the area"

Oh dear, that old red herring again - you disappoint us, Silas.

A ship of the size of the Belgrano could reverse course in around five minutes. You show your ignorance of seamanship, my boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:34 AM

Wasn't George Brown Dolly MacLennan's husband? And the late Gordon Brown was a great second row for Scotland and the Lions.

My point about majorities was one that Thatcher herself brought up, when she changed the traditionally accepted meaning of "majority" specially for the first Scottish devolution referendum.

I said at the time she was first elected as Prime Minister, that although she didn't understand Parliamentary Democracy, she was an expert at manipulating the system!

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:34 AM

"However, sinking the Belgrano as a synical vote gathering exercise was nothing short of mass murder"

Clearly you're not someone who has been at sea in a combat scenario, or for that matter ever faced an enemy in a wartime situation at all. If you had, you'd never have made a statement as crass as that one.

The Belgrano posed a threat to the UK forces in the area and it was good military prudence to neutralise it. If you can suggest any kind of workable method of neutralising a heavily armed Battle-Cruiser without any risk or loss of life (on either side), I'm sure there's a group of extremely high-ranking officers at the Admiralty who would be very interested to hear from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:34 AM

Well Michael old chap, if you bother to recall or read about it if you are not old enough to remember, the Belgrano was outside the 200 mile exclusion zone and sailing away from the area.

Apart from a bit of sabre rattling, there had been no significant aggresion up to this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:32 AM

Yes it was, it was a long way short of mass murder, you innocent fellow. It was a legitimate act of war. I recall someone at the time animadverting against it: "Why, they were running away from the scene of conflict," he trustingly explained. "And what," I asked him, "do they say about 'He who fights & runs away'?" He thought about it for a second, and then changed the subject. I think it would be seemly, Silas, if you were to do the same. I fear you are not showing yourself in the most flattering of lights.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:27 AM

Only one party leader knew the WMD's were an invention though!

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:35 AM

Well Guys, if you would like to check, you will see that both main party leaders we up for the war, so it would not have mattered who was in power at the time. And, no, not ALL labour MPs and supporters were in favour, far from it.

However, sinking the Belgrano as a synical vote gathering exercise was nothing short of mass murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:26 AM

I agree with Arthur here, Blair and virtually the whole Labour party sold out for power. They dragged us into a war that killed hundreds of thousands and left a country in a shambles, ensuring civil war for decades.

That was the crime of the century, not anything done by Thatcher.
I said years ago, that the British people would not cleanse themselves till any vestige of the administration who dragged them to war against their wishes, had been obliterated.

That has almost completely come to pass.

I repeat, you vote for capitalism, so you require a capitalist to lead it......Labour/ Socialism should be the steadying voice of opposition, until the day when we are adult enought to live our own lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:59 AM

OOps just got back and realised what I had done. Gordon it is. Thanks for correcting me. :-)

Why do I still remember silly old George. He was great for winding up :-) I seem to remember Robin Day winding him up once and spitting him out LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:35 AM

OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:33 AM

I thought that was George Davis?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Stu
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:26 AM

George Brown is innocent!

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:10 AM

Gordon?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 08:01 AM

Look quite honestly, I am neither Labour, Con or Lib Dem and vote for who I think is suitable at the time, otherwise it's a wasted vote.

However, you labourites have a vengance towards anybody that is not labour and that is not healthy. You do not seem to accept that anybody else but yourselves should be in charge.

My honest opinion is that George Brown fucked up good and proper and that's why labour is no longer in charge. learn to accept that labour was voted out and wait for your time again.

I think it is a total waste of time talking to such deep rooted members of any party.

So I will let you get on with it from now on.