BS: Iron lady

Subject: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 12:29 AM

The Iron Lady" should be called "Rusty Batty Bitch."

We just rented the film from Red Box. Unless you a a Streep fan, It was the worst possible film.

It portrayed her as stubborn and weak minded except where it came to economic policies, which are portrayed as forward thinking and perfectly correct. That is not how I remember that period.

The whole plot of film revolves around whether or not she will throw out her dead husband's shoes.

The film is a Tea Party wet dream and a British patriot's nightmare. IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 12:48 AM

It sounds great.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 01:46 AM

I always hated Meryl Streep. Jessica Lange too.
Those kind of actresses get on my nerves.
I wouldn't give ya a nickel for their movies.
=(:-( P)

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 11:20 AM

It also apparently shows her wearing a hat in Parliament, which she never, ever did. I too dislike Meryl, but I can't explain why. There's no doubt she's a very good actress, but she gets on my nerves too, Henry.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 12:27 PM

Streep is more stiff and wooden than Worzel Gummage's Aunt Sally, without the cakes. Only one good film I can think of which she did early on in her career, Silkwood. Apart from that she leaves me utterly untouched by her immobile face and line reciting.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 01:20 PM

i don't really have an opinion on meryl streep - as an actor she strikes me as a bit cold. but when she was in the papers and on posters here for the thatcher film i couldn't bear to look at her photo. my hatred of thatcher is deep and enduring and i'm afraid i will always link ms with her now. not keen on michael sheen either after his tony bliar film (though he was very good as cloughie)

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 01:41 PM

Beats me why so many people seem to spend their hard-earned dosh on watching films that they know they are going to hate. Some sort of SM is it? If so, there are better sites on google for that. Or is it with some intention of posting on Mudcat how much you hated it to augment your Thatcher-hating credentials to show what a thoroughly jolly good ole lefty egg you are? If so, don't bother, we've had it all up to here long since. If not, them for heavens sake, why·o·why!

Much exercised ---

not to say puzzled ---

and perplexed ···

☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 03:29 PM

Don't be such a curmudgeonly old wazzock, Michael. I never watch films and I wouldn't know Meryl Streep from a bull's foot if I passed her in the street, but I'm enjoying the bloody thread don't you see!

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 03:46 PM

Enjoy, enjoy, Steve. Who would ever grudge you? But is not my post, querying the motivations of those who go to see a film about Mrs Thatcher surely for the sold purpose of denouncing it & her, a contributor to your enjoyment of it? Or is that just too metafictional & v-effect or whatever?

What's a wazzock, BTW?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM

... and please do not respond that it as old curmudgeon like me, or I shall know you have rally & truly lost the plot!

"sole purpose" btw, sodit.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Janie
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 05:05 PM

Haven't seen this movie, but I confess to being a big fan of Meryl Streep. I haven't always liked the movies she was in, but think her a very talented and versatile actress and usually think she does a fine job inhabiting whatever role she is playing.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 05:17 PM

"forward thinking and perfectly correct"

I didn't get that idea at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM

People of the left love a film like this, as it confirms all their prejudices. They suspend all critical faculties at the door, as they go in :)
I too find Meryl an automaton, and a sheet of blotting paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 06:25 PM

Meryl Streep is one fine actress...

The Iron Lady was, too... Didn't know squat about squat but she and her buddy Ronald Reagan forged ahead as if they actually did know stuff... The each damaged the futures of their countries...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 07:06 PM

me, too, Janie, plus her parents are lovely folks. My daughter and her friend went trick or treating at their home in Mystic. They asked the girls in to get their opinions, for Meryl, of some songs demo tape someone had sent her. It was pretty neat.

I won't see the movie, Living through Reagan's reign is fresh in my memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 07:14 PM

I don't know Who MtheGM was talking about, someone he pulled out of his butt, probably. I was hoping for a sympathetic portrayal so I could learn more about her. But the story was told from the point of view of senility. Her political career was shown in uninformative snippets and not really dramatized and rarely commented upon. It was the lack of content that disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 07:20 PM

Jim Broadbent - always worth the ticket price.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 07:31 PM

He was very good in the film.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 01:42 AM

Jack ~ My post was more activated by the immediately preceding one from achmelvich [who, tho, looking again left it uncertain as to whether he had actually seen the film or was just distressed by seeing the pix in the ads, in which case silly old him!], than by yours, which was indeed more of a reasoned critique of the film itself than of its subject. Can't say I thought it as bad a film as you did at that, tho, as far as I recall. She did/does after all suffer from dementia which must be hard on her family; and I thought it gave a fair, neither hostile nor adulatory, account of her career [apart from the hat in the House which Eliza so astutely noticed] and its effects on her marriage & family life, with the aid of a fine performance from that outstanding actress [I don't care what anybody sez] MS, and excellent support from the always-reliable Jim Broadbent & Olivia Colman as Carol, with many excellent perfs as her colleagues & opponents.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 01:03 PM

I don't know Thather except through news reports. I wanted to know more of her.

The film was about the dementia whether or not the Elderly Thatcher suffers from that is of no interest to me. The decision making and point of view and even the family relations of the governing Thatcher would have been of great interest, that was what I wanted to see when I rented the movie. Those were presented in snippets, from a third hand point of view. The writing was a cop out and a rip off. IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 01:20 PM

Sorry, Jack, but you are being thoroughly unreasonable. It is always vain criticism to denounce a book, film, or whatever, for not doing what it never set out to do. The makers of this film chose a particular aspect of, and approach to, the subject. They are hardly to blame if it was not the one that you were hoping for, are they? I don't see that their failure to address what the great Jack 'wanted to see when he rented the movie' makes the work a 'cop-out & a rip-off'. I mean, it is of course disgraceful that they forgot to consult your tastes and desires before making the movie, but...

If you are so keen to find out more about her, read a book, why don't you? Nothing the film makers can do to prevent your following the subject further if you really want to. It would be a more constructive and intelligent use of your time than moaning on here about what the film-makers didn't choose to do.

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: fat B****rd
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 03:44 PM

It's unlikely that I'll see The Iron Lady film but I did enjoy Lindsay Duncan's portrayal of Mrs. T in the UK TV 'Margaret'.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 04:01 PM

After seeing Julie & Julia on TV, I am not interested in seeing another of Streep's films. I suspect it is similar in nature, (poor in my view).

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 04:27 PM

"It is always vain criticism to denounce a book, film, or whatever, for not doing what it never set out to do"

Apparently what it set out to do was create just enough footage o Thather the politician to fill the six minutes of trailers I saw and not to include and inch more in the film.

I don't know what the film maker intended. But if it was to make Streep look good at Thatcher's expense, it was a triumph.

My problem is NOT the filmakers' intent, it was what the marketers sold me.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 04:31 PM

Apparently what it set out to do was create just enough footage of Thather the politician to fill the six minutes of trailers I saw and not to include and inch more of footage in the film.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 04:37 PM

I sympathise with that, Jack. But your beef should be against the marketers, not the film makers.

"The writing was a cop out and a rip off. IMHO." But now you admit it wasn't the *writing*, but the publicity, to which you took exception, for which you will have to blame the packagers of the dvd you appear to have borrowed. You can scarcely blame

Pathé
Film4 Productions
UK Film Council
Media Rights Capital
Goldcrest Films

- can you now?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 05:01 PM

You can blame each and every one of them for making a move that couldn't possibly make its money back and selling it as something else.

If they had used the honest campaign. "Watch Streep's stunning performance as a little old lady deciding to give away her husband's clothes! And by the way, the little old lady used to be Prime Minister of the UK."

It would have gone straight to video.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 06:57 PM

I think it is very undesirable to allow Americans to play the parts of English people. They simply cannot do the accent and it destroys the credibity - what thespians call"the suspension of disbelief". Streep is widely regarded as a master of accent but the trailers I saw of this film made me wince. Not quite Dick van Dyke, but bloody awful accent stuff.

But in any event I would not watch a film about the bitch Thatcher - unless it was one of her being burned or boiled alive - or maybe when her complicity in the greatest frame-up on British history comes out, being posthumously stripped of her honours, disinterred, and her body thrown to carrion birds.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 11:41 PM

I'm disappointed that the following vignette was not in the movie.

While visiting the United Kingdom , Winnie Mandela was invited to a cocktail party which was also to be attended by Margaret Thatcher.
When Winnie saw the ex-prime minister on the other side of the room, she barged past everyone, spilling the drinks of several invited guests on the way.
Winnie elbowed her way to Maggie, stood brazenly in front of her and declared,
"I hear they call you the Iron Lady!"
"I have been referred to by that name, yes," replied Maggie, peering down her nose at this impudent upstart.
"And whom, may I enquire, do I have the honour of addressing?" asked Maggie icily.
"I am the iron lady of South Africa !" bragged Winnie, waving her fist in the air.
"Oh, yes," replied Maggie dryly. "And for whom do you iron?"

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 03:42 AM

I haven't seen the film so can't comment on it but my son tells me that when he was in a cinema in Castleford and a trailer for it was shown, a large portion of the audience stood up a booed.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 04:23 AM

Charlie Chaplin played Hitler, but of course he was on Hitler's death list a decade before the movie.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 04:29 AM

I think it is very undesirable to allow Americans to play the parts of English people.

Oh really, Richard? Watch "Spinal Tap".

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:06 AM

And note Gwyneth Paltrow in Sliding Doors.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:09 AM

... and the converse ought to apply for British actors playing Americans; but note that Tennessee Williams himself chose, not only Vivien Leigh for the lead in the original London Production of his A Streetcar Named Desire, but Jessica Tandy, also English, for the original NY production.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:41 AM

... and Vivien Leigh was subsequently cast in the American film of the play...

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 09:07 AM

Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 09:14 AM

Don't know who you might be, Mr Jennings; but you must have a fine opinion of yourself if you imagine that I regard the maintaining of your fatuous interest as any part of my responsibilities.

Take your mannerless self off into company where it might be appreciated - if you please.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 01:52 PM

"Take your mannerless self off into company where it might be appreciated - if you please. "

I didn't realize this was an option, since you think that it is, please kindly do so yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 02:27 PM

jeez, this is like prim ministers question time,lots of people throwing insults, mrs thatcher would enjoy it and she would give you naughty boys a good spanking

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 02:41 PM

Ooh, Dick. Lots of people would pay good money to see THAT!

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 02:42 PM

Hmmm. Well, my reaction to this movie was pretty much the same...in fact just about exactly the same...as yours, Jack.

I'm almost always interested in political historical films, because the subject of politics interests me. I don't care if they're films about John Kennedy, Richard Nixon, Margaret Thatcher, Gandhi, Gorbachev, Castro, whoever....whether or not I liked them...I find the subject interesting and I hope to find out more about what was going on politically at the time, what influenced key decisions, etc.

I wanted to see the same things in the movie that you did, and I was disappointed to find that it offered only a few fragments of political history amidst a great deal about her declining mental health...a rather sad and depressing subject, no matter who it's happening to.

I don't think it's "always vain criticism to denounce a book, film, or whatever, for not doing what it never set out to do", as M says above. One might hope that a book or film would set out to do something really worthwhile and interesting with a juicy subject, rather than wasting a grand opportunity to do so! ;-D

In my opinion, this lackluster and depressing film about Margaret Thatcher was a huge disappointment, because it wasted the opportunity to tell a really fascinating political story and to tell it well.

As for Meryl Streep...I'm sort of neutral on her. On the one hand, I think she's a very fine character actress. On the other hand, I find her kind of odd in a way, rather wooden, and I usually don't feel much of a connection to the characters she plays in movies. She's good at the job, allright, but her style doesn't appeal to me much.

I chose to watch the movie because the history interests me, not because Meryl Streep was playing the part. What I got to see in that movie was precious little of the history.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 11:45 PM

Yeah, that's about it LH. I will say that Streep was brilliant in the movie and the role was a perfect display of her acting chops. She certainly deserved the Oscar.

But had it been advertized for what it was, I would not have rented it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:50 AM

The best comment that I came across about "The Iron Lady" said something to the effect that everyone has a strong opinion about Margaret Thatcher except for the makers of the film. I tend to agree with that assessment. As has been remarked, the film pretty much ignored the historical story, and used a typical Hollywood formula   to tell the story of a character who was tough, determined, and ultimately triumphed against all odds. It was a bit vague about what the odds actually were, but that's entertainment...

The real Mrs. Thatcher, though able to manage both love and hate with equanimity, might have been uncomfortable with pity, which is all this film seems to ask for her.

I saw every film nominated for an Oscar this year; there were some great ones, but this was not one of them. Though I like Meryl Streep(at least sort of), her films tend to be about her acting. This was no exception. When she got the Oscar, she won out over the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:57 AM

Well put Stim.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:35 AM

One of the best films about Meryl Streep and the Thatcher era

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsvdhIzlYAo&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsearch_query%3DThe%2BStrike%26oq%3DThe%

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:10 AM

The uploader has not made this video available in your country.

sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:41 AM

As regards Meryl Streep's acting, I have been urged to watch several of her films but have never found her to be particularly inspiring or even memorable.
As for the subject in hand I'm with my friend who still has a bottle of champagne awaiting her passing.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:55 AM

How pathetic! I really feel sorry for you, BBCW!

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:39 AM

Ya want history, LH, read a history book. This is a MOVIE fer chrissakes - you know, entertainment? Make believe? Hollywood???

Now that we know where you get your knowledge of history from, a lot of your diatribes make a good deal more "sense".

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:51 AM

In a film, certain conventions are used to build interest, to develop character, and to move the story forward. They usually have nothing to do with reality at all.

Just because I am sort of that way, I like to know about the reality, so I google something like, "The Iron Lady-what really happened" or some such. Generally, someone has gone through the movie, either with broad strokes or point by point, comparing what really happened with the film. It can be very entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:47 AM

Greg, if you would for once put your personal vendetta against me aside and simply consider my posts as if any other human being had written them, they wouldn't cause you to say such hostile things to me all the time.

I do appreciate moves AS entertainment, sure. Anyone does. But if they're about history, then I would hope they would manage to be both good entertainment AND good history. And why not? Isn't real history the most entertaining thing of all? I think so. Surely a well-made movie could accomplish both objectives.

I do read history books, you see. And that's why, when I see a movie about history, I am concerned about its historical accuracy. No story could possibly be as good as the REAL story, in my opinion. This is something that usually escapes Hollywood, but now and then they get it right. British films, on the other hand, seem to generally be more historically accurate from what I've seen.

For a really idiotic American film about history, for instance, try the recent "Pearl Harbour" with Ben Affleck. It could hardly have been any stupider or more pointless.

Now, try it. Just pretend, the next time you see any post of mine, that I didn't write it. Pretend that someone you don't already have a huge grudge against wrote it....someone you don't know...someone you never heard of...someone you haven't already decided to loathe, despise, and attack at every opportunity. Just another human being, and no personal ax to grind. I know it's tough, Greg, but you can do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:55 AM

It's not you, Little Hawk, that's just what he does. Whatever you do, don't tell him if you use a cell phone, that get's him really wound up;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:01 PM

Well, yeah, I know. I've almost never encountered anyone else online who is so unremittingly hostile. What's the big deal about the cellphones? Is he for them or against them?

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:57 PM

He doesn't like them, and has contempt for the people who use them. As you've noted, he brings hostility into even the blandest discussions. I suppose it keeps people interested, but it gets old.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:02 PM

Movies in the hands of a master, like Speilberg, Like Scorcese are our highest form of art. The masters respect the history and those portrayed.

As for these film makers.

"The best comment that I came across about "The Iron Lady" said something to the effect that everyone has a strong opinion about Margaret Thatcher except for the makers of the film."

Again, thanks to Stim.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:06 PM

He's a mean, angry little man. Picks fights. Throws insults about. Mean and petty.
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:07 PM

Don't mention it, JtS. I am a bit hesitant to post comments about movies, just because I don't want to spoil things for people who might want to see. When a film's been out for a while, and when it's had as much said about it as this one has, I feel a bit better about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:09 PM

I've got nothing against cell phones, Stim ( now who is that, really, masquerading as a "guest" I wonder ) they're a piece of inanimate electronic equipment. I use one myself.

Now, boorish, ignorant, techno-addicted assholes are entirely something else again.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:18 PM

Well, you found the right thread. And, as I remember, wasn't long ago that you were quite unpleasant to a number of people who preferred not to have landlines.

In fact, you are the one being boorish. Given that it is the internet, it tends to keep things entertaining, and, on that level is of value, it wears thin, though.

Are you, like our dear Henry Krinkle, just trying to mix things up, or is there something else going on?

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:35 PM

My opinion of Thatcher is such that I would never spend time or bucks to see a film about her. As for Streep's acting I would think her to be an excellent choice to play Thatcher! I find it rather strange to call her acting cold when she is portraying such a cold hearted bitch as a subject! To add a music twist to this thread Buck Owens had a big hit with a song called Act Naturally, and perhaps it could apply here as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:41 PM

Indeed! She was ideal for bringing that chilling patrician coldness and iron will to the Thatcher role.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:18 PM

you were quite unpleasant to a number of people who preferred not to have landlines.

Not at all, Stim (whoever you really are)- I was trying to prevent those people from dying because they did not understand the limitations of cell phone technology - which are many.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:12 PM

I don't think you changed anyone's mind. Whoever you really are;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: meself
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:00 PM

I've always felt Meryl Streep is a remarkable actress. Sorry - actor.

Who would you want to play Thatcher - Julia Roberts?

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 07:56 AM

"How pathetic! I really feel sorry for you, BBCW! "

I feel sorry for me as well and I know whom I am blaming, however, to return to the thread, the only actresses that I can think think would make a good job of portraying Margaret Thatcher would probably not contemplate accepting the role.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 08:31 AM

That seems rather an odd remark, BBCW. Actors play the roles in which they are cast, villains as well as heroes, nasty as well as nice people. They don't have to love their characters, you know. You remind me a bit of the naifs who would loudly denounce Iago from the gallery.

~~ A bit like saying that no actor would "contemplate accepting" the role of Claudius, or Lady Macbeth, or Richard III, or Le Vicomte de Valmont, or Sir Jasper Fiendish, or Captain Bligh, or Goldfinger, or Tracy McDonald, or Grant Mitchell, or JR, or Hubert Lane... Would make drama a little bit difficult, eh?

LoL ~~ at you, not with you!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 08:55 AM

Your examples are either fictional or historic, I don't think it's the same when you are contemplating a recent or contemporary person, there are a lot more considerations involved.

Actors play the parts in which they are content to be cast, balanced against their need for the money:)

I am most surely not an actor as the processess involved in portaying another person are way outside of my comfort zone.

Not wishing to cause controversy here, merely stating my predjudices and how they affect my reasoning. Probably to complicated a process to even start working out the root causes of my predjudices, suffice to say that Mrs Thatcher's actions and policies seem to me to have considerably erroded the potential happinesses in my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 09:33 AM

I see what you mean about contemporaneity, BB ~ up to a point. But surely nobody thinks, even with contemporary people, that the part an actor plays will bring the actor into such obloquy as some may hold the original character in; or that the person's vices, such as they might be, would rub off on to the actor. After all, distinguished actors have played Hitler.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 09:52 AM

Trying to analyse my reaction here; I would say that because I have difficulty in assuming the character of another person (It appears from other current threads that I'm not allowed to ponder whether I lean towards being an Aspurger's syndrome case) it therefore indicates to me that a truly succeful portrayal of a person by an actor could only be accomplished by an actor who to some extent could sympathise withthe subject.

I cannot defend this view, I am just saying that my built in predjudices have this effect, with the result that the actor concerned would always be tainted in my mind. My loss but also the actors.

I am tryng to think of any actors that have played Hitler or similar effectively that have not been affected in my view, and so far I can't think of any, it's a bit different with such as Chaplin's Great Dictator where the intent is to parody.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 10:21 AM

Here are a few, copied from wikipedia

The 2003 television film Hitler: The Rise of Evil stars Robert Carlyle in the title role

Moloch (1999), directed by Alexander Sokurov, starring Leonid Mozgovoy,

Hitler: The Last Ten Days (1973), directed by Ennio de Concini, starring Sir Alec Guinness

Soviet film series Liberation (1969–72), directed by Yuri Ozerov, starring Fritz Diez (an actor who commonly portrayed Hitler in a number of East German films from 1955 onwards)

Adolf Hitler, a British (7 January 1973) made-for-television production, starring Frank Finlay in the title role

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 10:56 AM

The finest acting portrayal of Hitler ever done was probably by Bruno Ganz in the recent film "Der Untergang" (The Downfall). It's a brilliantly realistic portrayal of the final days of the Nazi regime, focusing mainly on the last few days in Hitler's Berlin bunker.

It shows the characters as real people for a change, instead of as cardboard stereotypes. The most chilling individuals are probably Josef and Magda Goebbels, whose fanatical devotion to the cause and ideals of Naziism never flagged for a moment. There were plenty of others who began to see through the madness as it was falling apart...but even for them escape seemed virtually impossible. They were caught up in events that they could no longer control.

There are about a million silly prank videos on Youtube which use Hitler footage out of "Der Untergang" to make various jokes. A few of them are very witty, but the actual movie is brilliant...and quite depressing.

It manages to show Hitler as a multi-dimensional personality, and it may be the only movie that has ever managed that. Rather than being a stereotype of "pure evil", he was, like most people, a mixture of human qualities both good and bad....but the negative/paranoid side of him ended up becoming dominant over his life, and it led him and his country into utter disaster.

For any actor to portray him realistically, it has to be a tour de force. If, on the other hand, you're just portraying him as a "monster", well, I guess any hack who's had a week of training in Acting 101 could probably manage that.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:02 AM

meself: "Who would you want to play Thatcher - Julia Roberts?"

Tilda Swinton - Scottish rather than English, but very good. Or Kate Blanchett - Australian, and very good too. If we must have an American actress then Charlize Theron.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:05 AM

Unfortunate theat they're mostly too young, I'm forgetting this film was about Thatch in her dotage.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:15 AM

Thanks for that reminder, LH. That was indeed another distinguished portrayal of AH in a very fine film. I agree too about the excellent portrayal of the Goebbels.

So there are some more examples for you, BB, of actors who can inhabit the evil without becoming tarnished themselves. Acting is, do not forget, a job.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:37 AM

Evil, in any case, is ultimately nothing else than tragic. It is the failure of a human being to meet the challenge of overcoming their own inner darkness...and make no mistake, we all face that challenge.

I recently watched a not very well known made-for-TV movie on Youtube called "The Taking of Peggy Ann". It's a true story about a 17 year old rural girl in Pennsylvania who got abducted by a disturbed "redneck" individual, triggering off one of the biggest manhunts in the history of the USA. Unlike most made for TV films, this one had excellent acting, a realistic story, and was really very well done. The guy who kidnaps the girl is a pretty repulsive and weird loner, a person you feel little if any sympathy for...I spent most of the movie just wanting to see him shot dead. When he finally meets his inevitable end, though, one feels great relief...yes...but one also feels a great deal of pity. And that's how the girl felt too. She was tremendously relieved to be rescued, but she also pitied the man who had put her through the awful ordeal of being kidnapped and dragged around through the woods for over a week, and who knows what else...

She had come to realize the incredible loneliness and isolation of that man's life, and she felt sorry for him. His life was just one unremitting, hopeless tragedy...and it rebounded eventually on others and hurt them too.

That's what evil is, in the end. It's a tragedy...a case of positive human potential that was never realized, and a life that could have been a triumph over adversity, but ended up as nothing but a cruel failure.

Hitler could have gotten over the bitterness he felt about the loss of the First World War and the events that followed it. He could have forgiven the past and started out fresh. He could have become a painter or a writer, lived a good life, and done no harm to anyone. That possibility was there. The tragedy was that he went the other way and got swallowed by his own "dark side"...and he had strong enough talents in certain respects that it enabled him to take an entire country down with him.

It's a pretty challenging part for an actor to play, unless they just do the "cardboard" Hitler, as has been seen in any number of films.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:04 PM

Actors love to play controversial people. For one thing, it is a creative challenge to interpret a familiar personality, also, it is also, there is always an audience. If you do a bad job, it is tossed into the bargain video bins, but a good rendering will get Oscar consideration.

The role of Richard Nixon in the play and later movie, "Frost/Nixon"(Nixon was at least as controversial a character as Mrs. Thatcher) is another case in point. I saw Frank Langella play Nixon on Broadway, and then went home and watched the actual interviews, and thought that Langella was a more believable Nixon than Nixon was....

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:07 PM

"Charlize Theron."

Yes a skinny sexy Thatcher that's the ticket.


Born:
August 7, 1975 in Benoni, Gauteng, South Africa

I think you have the wrong idea of Iron lady.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: meself
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:15 PM

The internet tells me I'm forbidden to look at that picture. I guess they've found out about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:17 PM

They won't let me look at it either.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:19 PM

"Frost Nixon" was a polar opposite to "The Iron Lady" in the writing and information presented. It was almost entirely based on things they actually said.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:52 PM

Well, yes, and "opposite" because it examined Nixon, his action, and his place in history, instead of just using him as character in a story about something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:04 PM

I thoroughly enjoyed that movie about Richard Nixon and David Frost. There was a political movie well worth watching, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Musket
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM

I doubt I shall see Iron Lady, although once it is on TV, if there is nothing else on, I might do. My concerns are as ever, that nobody is a prophet in their own land, which translates as her being lauded everywhere but The UK where she is known as "Hasn't she bloody died yet?" I suspect Hollywood makes her look more competent than she ever was.

I wonder if the sequel will be her eventual demise when we suffer an international champagne shortage?

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:54 PM

Theron is an excellent actress. And she does a good female psycho. Disn't you ever see Monster?
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews46/monster_theron_blu-ray/large/large_monster_blu-ray5x.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:58 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:04 PM
I thoroughly enjoyed that movie about Richard Nixon and David Frost. There was a political movie well worth watching, in my opinion."


Wow, wasn't Nixon played beautifully! Great film. Great acting. Evertyhing.

Me who posted the pic. of Theron in 'Monster' below BTW. Beautiful women can actually act too sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 02:01 PM

Musket. That last post of yours was a perfect example of speculation from zero data.

" I suspect Hollywood makes her look more competent than she ever was."

You could not have said that with any knowledge of the movie or even if you had read the comments about the movie on this thread.

Your choice if you want to do that. Doesn't help your credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 02:21 PM

"Monster" is a superb movie. It's also utterly heartbreaking. Don't watch it if you have a tendency to fall into clinical depression. Charlize Theron's acting in it could not have been better.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM

Charlize Theron was also excellent in last year's "Young Adult", a rather dark sort of comedy, where she plays an incredibly narcissistic and offensive author of children's books you end up caring about anyway. Many felt she should have been nominated for the Oscar that Streep got.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 11:36 AM

Hello Sailor!

Believe it or not, we have data available here in civilisation. As someone who has been to the cinema a few times and seen the odd DVD at home as it were, my speculation (note speculation, not conclusion you prat) is based on having been many times able to look at Hollywood's portrayal of many subjects, not least of all The UK, of which the industry has a fascination not matched by accuracy, sadly.

So zero data? No. First, a probability based on past form. Secondly, by err.. reading many of the comments on this thread. Or at least I thought I had till you pointed out that I hadn't. I'm confused now, because you defend Dumbfuckistan and that makes you clever.

zzzzzzzzz


Back to everyone else, I might watch it if there is nothing else on and I fancy watching a film. But it doesn't tend to be in Ms Streep's contract to ever play someone shallow, incompetent and the mouthpiece of clever dangerous people, ie Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 02:39 PM

You didn't see the movie, Musket. It portrayed Mrs. Thatcher as senile, and demented, so when you said," I suspect Hollywood makes her look more competent than she ever was.", it was pretty funny...

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 02:43 PM

Doubling down on willful ignorance. Interesting tactic!! LOL!!!

"Hello Sailor!

Believe it or not, we have data available here in civilisation. As someone who has been to the cinema a few times and seen the odd DVD at home as it were, my speculation (note speculation, not conclusion you prat) is based on having been many times able to look at Hollywood's portrayal of many subjects, not least of all The UK, of which the industry has a fascination not matched by accuracy, sadly.

So zero data? No. First, a probability based on past form. Secondly, by err.. reading many of the comments on this thread. Or at least I thought I had till you pointed out that I hadn't. I'm confused now, because you defend Dumbfuckistan and that makes you clever."

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 04:19 PM

Where is Dumfuckistan, Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 04:24 PM

"Dumfuckistan"

I think it is where opinions are expressed on the basis of zero knowledge to those who have enough information to see how ignorant those opinions are. Musket knows. He is el Presidente!

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 05:06 PM

How about El Jefe? (Heh-Fay) Don't you think that has a nice, authoritative sound to it? (It basically means the same as Der Feuhrer does in German...."The Boss".)

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 05:15 PM

It was the title Franco was known by during his time at the head of the Spanish government after the Civil War. In fact, to be strictly accurate, Der Fuhrer means The Leader, as did Il Duce, the title chosen in Italy by Mussolini [from Latin dux, also cognate with duke]; while El Jefe means The Chief.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Musket
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 10:54 AM

Hello Sailor (and anybody else getting a stiffy about The Iron Lady.)

OK, if Hollywood does show her as senile and demented, it still can't compete with her incompetence as Prime Minister. Although the short clips I have seen don't seem to concentrate on that aspect...

Dumbfuckistan.. To be fairly honest Little Hawk, I am not sure of the GPS coordinates myself but I suspect Sailor Boy might know. After all, I put it in the post as a private smile at him, as he once got a bit stroppy at my mentioning it as a location somewhere in The USA.

Zero knowledge is a wonderful skill. Best used on silly sites such as the BS section of Mudcat. I enjoy joining in from time to time. Sailor Boy is of course a past master at firing off with zero application of the knowledge he sometimes demonstrates he has, which is the same as zero knowledge I suppose. Me? Just the same.

In fact, I suspect that Sailor Boy's original post confirms my point about Hollywood. After all, she is a Brit, so don't give her too much credibility, whereas her economic policies seem to fit with GOP outlook, so best not ridicule them.

Like I said; Hollywood.... Just like Sailor Boy said. Just before he set about to try to make me look small. Sanctimonious prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 12:56 PM

I'm confused. This is now down to name calling, and I am a bit lost. Who is on which side?   

If I can, I try to be on Little Hawk's side, just because don't want to get on the wrong side Shane and Chongo. I'd also like to be on MtheGM's good side, just because he is so literate and all, but he is wary of sycophants. Also, he doesn't acknowledge Shane and Chongo at all.

As to Jack the Sailor, well, he's the man. So, as one of my personal favorite ex-presidents used to say, "Bring it on!"

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 06:58 PM

LOL!

Yeah, wasn't he a pip? I've got a now rare 12-inch action figure of "The Decider" wearing his Air Force uniform. You can pose him in any position the human body is capable of assuming. I plan to sell it for a HUGE sum in another 50 years from now...

I've been looking for a similar action figure of Hillary Clinton. Can't find one for love or money, but if I could, I would pose them "together" for laughs.

Then again, Condoleeza Rice would be kind of cool too.

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: ollaimh
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 04:11 PM

little hawk, hitler is the world's best agruement for free public education(which adam smith advocated, by the way). if only they had let him into art school!! if only thay had let him into art school!!! if only they had let him into art school!!!!!

then none of us would have ever heard of him except for the odd painting in vienna fles markets.

as for streep. i love her acting, but i didn't much love her accent in the movie. the movie was much more sympathetic to her than she deserved. she did participate in the great frame up of the innocent protestors murdered by racist british soldiers on bloody sunday,and of course engaged in the fantasy economics that deindustrialized britain and started putting all power in the hands of the parasitic financial barons. and she allowed her forced to torture prisoners. all small scale compared to w bush.

the only great movie i've seen in years was the imaginarium of doctor parnassus. most movies are disapointing

Subject: RE: BS: Iron lady
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 04:27 PM

Can't agree more about Thatcher...

And I am very much in favour of free public education for all. There are few things a country can do which could be more beneficial to the future of the society.