BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?

Subject: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 11:12 AM

After seeing that Karzai, hand picked by The USA to lead Afghanistan, is happy to say he is receiving "bags of money" from Iran, I am suddenly growing weary of the war in Afghanistan.

What is being accomplished? Either win the friggin' thing or get the hell out.

They are "negotiating" whith an enemy that will just lay low until they can re emerge and take over the country again.

The enemy must be wiped out with whatever it takes like cancer therapy.

You may find some where that I have defended the war or said it would not turn into another Vietnam. If I sad such a thing, I was wrong.

Seems to me like the US [and NATO] is going down the tubes while fighting a war for corrupt people that don't appreciate it at all, except for the money they make off of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 11:35 AM

From the looks of it, it may be worse. Wikileaks has done a great job.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:35 PM

"The enemy must be wiped out with whatever it takes like cancer therapy."

You're quite right about that, Sawzaw. The only trouble is...the real enemy is the foreign occupying forces fielded by the USA, Canada, the UK, etc....and their corrupt political surrogates in Kabul. That is the real enemy of the Afghan people...just like it was with the Russians and their corrupt surrogates in Kabul back in the 80s.

That war will be won when all the foreign occupying armies of the Allied Coalition are persuaded or forced to leave the sovereing territory of the nation they have invaded, and when their puppets like Karzai are gone from power in Kabul.

The enemy is us!!!! Not Al Queda. Not the Taliban. Not the Pashtuns. We are the enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:42 PM

SO LH votes for the Taliban?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:48 PM

Nope. I don't give a damn about the Taliban and I never did. I vote for the people of Aghanistan and the sovereignty of nations. You vote for imperialism in service to huge multinational oil companies and other corporate entities, but you just don't realize it, that's all. You think you're defending freedom. You're mistaken about that. The Taliban are temporary, and so is America's imperial adventure in the Middle East. It will end. So will the Taliban. Afghanistan will survive, however, as will the Afghan people, and the invaders will be driven out one day. Probably a day that isn't too far off...historically speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:03 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:04 PM

I don't remember US soil being attacked from Viet Nam. So the wars will never be the same. Afghanistan 2000's is not even another Afghanistan 1979-1989.

The reports I have heard are that Taliban Leaders are making statements that Foreign fighters will not be allowed in Afghanistan if a deal is made. If the North Viet Namese had made such a promise about the Chinese and USSR, could that war have been settled? We will never know.

A lot of problems people have with Obama's promises is that they expected the solutions to the problems to be instant and without consequence. I think that by 2012, Afghanistan will be as much a problem as Iraq is now. There will still be structural problems, but WE won't be responsible for them any more.

Obama didn't promise Jeffersonian democracy in either country. If that does not happen. Blame the guy who did.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:26 PM

"I vote for the people of Aghanistan"

Do you think they would be better off without the Taliban?

Should we go back over the 55 gallon barrels of severed hands being hauled out of a deserted former soccer stadium which only used for public executions of women by machine gun and punishment by dismemberment?

Are the Taliban invaders?

The Taliban, (meaning "students") is a hanafi Islamist political group that governed Afghanistan from 1996 until it was overthrown in late 2001.

The Taliban movement is primarily made up of members belonging to ethnic Pashtun tribes, along with volunteers from nearby Islamic countries such as Uzbeks, Tajiks, Punjabis, Arabs, Chechens, and others. It operates in Afghanistan and Pakistan, mostly in provinces around the Durand Line border. U.S. officials say their headquarters is in or near Quetta, Pakistan, and that Pakistan and Iran provide support, though both nations deny this.

While in power, the Taliban enforced one of the strictest interpretations of Sharia law ever seen in the Muslim world, and became notorious internationally for their treatment of women. Women were forced to wear the burqa in public. They were allowed neither to work nor to be educated after the age of eight, and until then were permitted only to study the Qur'an. They were not allowed to be treated by male doctors unless accompanied by a male chaperon, which led to illnesses remaining untreated. They faced public flogging in the street, and public execution for violations of the Taliban's laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: bankley
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:49 PM

yes, as far as the abundance of heroin goes

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:58 PM

"Do you think they would be better off without the Taliban?"

No idea, but I do suspect that the rest of the world would be better off without the USA's attempts to 'help'.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:08 PM

While the Taliban and their treatment of women and their destruction of ancient treasures were evil beyond description, those were matters of internal governance. An invasion might have been for the best of motives but would still have been an invasion.

The US "axis of evil" approach was probably never justifiable and accordingly the true motivation for the invasion was probably venal.

Holding the country once invaded was always likely to be as far beyond the USA as it had been beyond the British Empire and the might of the USSR at different times.

Stillness can only come in three ways.

First, the Irish solution: give up, go away, and hope that eventually "outgoing fire" of various kinds will end.

Second, kill every living thing: but people will move back and it will take a huge passage of time for "society" to evolve beyond local warlordry. This will only inflame other destabilising forces.

Third, kill every living thing and salt the soil (or use the modern equivalents or nuclear radiation (anthrax is too hard to contain)). This too will only inflame other destabilising forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:13 PM

Sawzaw, I think that Afghanistan would be way better off without both the Taliban AND the USA. The USA isn't in there to help Afghans, it's in there to help itself by expanding its imperial control over a vital strategic area that rests between 5 volatile powers: China, Russia, India, Pakistan, and Iran. The USA is there to dominate that piece of strategic real estate and ship oil through it from the Caspian region.

The Taliban weren't there to help Afghans either, they were in there to help themselves, but at least they mostly were Afghans!

When the coalition armies finally leave, which they will, there will shortly occur what always occurs in Afghanistan when a foreign occupier leaves: the different tribal factions there will start fighting each other to see who gets to run the show. The Pashtuns in the South will fight the other tribal groups in the north and the east, as has happened many times before, and it will be very nasty. Eventually someone will prevail and secure central power in Kabul. It may be the Taliban who prevails, it may be another group entirely. Whoever it is, they will set up a new Afghan government and their foes will continue fighting them sporadically from the more remote mountain areas, and life will go on in Afghanistan as it has in the past, but the vital thing is, it will go on without the presence of an invading foreign army from some other country.

The Russians and their surrogates were a curse on Afghanistan and had no business being there. The Americans and their surrogates are also a curse on Afghanistan and have no business being there. It isn't up to anyone else to determine how the Afghans should live, it's up to the Afghans.

I'm not on any Afghan faction's side in this. That's up to them to sort out. I want all foreign troops taken out of that country, period.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:25 AM

I don't hear anything logical reasons for leaving Afghanistan to the Taliban. I believe the Taliban are invaders.

"it's up to the Afghans." It will be up to the Taliban.

And just don't worry about the Taliban that is the main supplier of the Heroin which is rotting Europe. Tough shit Europe.


The Taliban control nearly 95% of the area under opium poppy cultivation. ... of about 80% of Europe's heroin market and 15% to 20% of North America's. ...
www.hazara.net/taliban/criminal_acts/drugs/drugs.html

Drugs for guns: how the Afghan heroin trade is fuelling the ...
Apr 29, 2008 ... The heroin flooding Britain's streets is threatening the lives of UK ... at factories inside Afghanistan, sold into Tajikistan and smuggled to Europe. ... "The heroin is what lets us fight," said the Taliban go-between

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/drugs-for-guns-how-the-afghan-heroin-trade-is-fuelling-the-taliban-insurgency-817230.html

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:34 AM

Hey Bruce, Tbus, Are you lurking?

Do you think Afghanistan has turned into a PC clusterfuck or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:13 AM

Afghanistan become another Vietnam?..You mean Obama is as good as Lyndon Johnson???
Just a thought......

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:17 AM

Yes. George Bush got us into another war that is like Vietnam. And it's not like he didn't have perfectly good examples to look at. The British had been there and failed, and the Russians more recently pulled out with their tails between their legs. Invading was a stupid thing to do.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 09:30 AM

Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam? - Short answer is no it has not, nor will it become another Vietnam.

"The USA is there to dominate that piece of strategic real estate and ship oil through it from the Caspian region."

Fatuous rubbish as there are already at least five pipelines in existence that export oil from the Caspian region to the west that do not run through war zones. Besides there were never any plans for an oil pipeline to cross Afghanistan in the first place, there are none on the table now.

People keep harping on about Karzai and his corrupt government. Casting around you will see that every single government in the region is corrupt, so why everyone insists on Karzai's being any different mystifies me, at least in comparison to the others Karzai's was at least elected. The former "Government" of Mullah Mohammad Omar's Taleban were not only thoroughly corrupt they were also amazingly incompetent.

Between April 1978 and October 2001 somewhere in the region of 2 million Afghans were killed which works out at an average daily death toll over the period of 248 people. Since October 2001 to the present some 34,000 Afghans have been killed which works out at 11 killed per day, out of which 8 are killed by the Taleban. The sole reason for the reduction in the average daily death toll is the presence of ISAF/US-OEF troops and the Afghan Security Forces. Since October 2001 there has been a force present inside Afghanistan tasked with the protection of the general population, they have reduced the scale of the slaughter by 96%.

Reconstruction work is underway throughout the country, and this work is producing jobs. The city of Kabul that lay in ruins in November 2001, with a population of only 250,000 is now largely rebuilt and the population has returned to its pre-1978 level of some 3.5 million.

The Taleban will never regain power for the same reason that the analogy with Vietnam won't work, there is no-one to play the part of the Russians, the Chinese or even the North-Vietnamese in Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 09:37 AM

Remeber when we first learned to demonize the Taliban when you saw the video of a 2000 year old Budda statue being blown up?

It seems we now need to protect the Taliban or the 10 year mission in Afghani satan. Many of the elder Taliban have been killed recently so now we have to deal with 19 year old Taliban to establish safe passages, pay offs and truces.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 09:41 AM

Sawzaw, the war is not really about the Taliban, just like it was not really about Al Queda (which barely even exists, except for American propaganda purposes). It's about the USA securing a very important piece of strategic territory which lies across very important passes that allow access to Russia, China, India, Pakistan, and Iran. Major empires have been fighting over that piece of land and trying to control it for thousands of years, but they have all failed to impose their will upon the indigenous people, the Aghans. The primary force opposing the USA is the Pashtuns, a tribal people who are the majority in southern Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. They used to be known as "Pathans", and are famous for being good warriors. Some of them are Taliban, some are not.

The USA/UK/Canada is simply the latest imperial order to attempt to do this, and they will fail, as the Russians failed before them.

The Taliban are one among a number of factions that might succeed in dominating Afghanistan after the Allied Coalition leaves. There's no guarantee that the Taliban will be the winner in the struggle that follows, but someone in Afghanistan will be the winner.

As for the opium trade, it's basically the only way that most of the country people in Afghanistan can earn a living, so that's why they are doing it. They have always done it, and they will continue to do it. The Afghan forces that have allied themselves with the USA love dealing opium, so nothing is going to change much in that respect regardless of whether the USA stays or not. Opium will continue to be sold from Aghanistan. That is a fact of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Acorn4
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 10:15 AM

the Duke of Wellington once said:- "Afghanistan is the easiest place in the world to get in to, but almost impossible to get out of".

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:19 PM

Little Hawk: "As for the opium trade, it's basically the only way that most of the country people in Afghanistan can earn a living, so that's why they are doing it. They have always done it, and they will continue to do it. The Afghan forces that have allied themselves with the USA love dealing opium, so nothing is going to change much in that respect regardless of whether the USA stays or not. Opium will continue to be sold from Afghanistan. That is a fact of life."

Yo-Ho!!.....Oh how right you are!!!...Sounds like the 'Golden Triangle' revisited! BTW, another similarity, between the two, is early in the 60's, there was discovered massive oil reserves in.........................guess where?............ The Gulf of Tonkin!! ...........but if they ennoble the cause, they can sell the idea...and have..to both sides!.....Sorta reminds one of Central America in the 80's and Mexico, now........oh, those poor 'immigrants', let's leave the borders open for the poor things...just like V.P. (at the time) Bush, in the Reagan administration cleared the radar channels to allow coke to be flown into our airspace...in trade for the guns going down there!

I guess, for a lot of our 'liberal' friends, if you do enough dope, you're easier to dupe!!!....and pretend its 'all for a benevolent brotherhood of do-gooding'!

As for the folks on the right, if its wrapped in a patriotic fuzzy blanket, then it can certainly be 'justified'...and a 'great idea'!
...but all in all, it's all the same...just a different sales pitch, to whatever ill informed audience their playing to.

Peace/Love!!....... Great shit!..and where did you say this stuff came from?????......soon as we get wasted, let's go down to the protest rally!!....but for some reason, they don't take us seriously...

It's pretty laughable...if it wasn't so damn tragic!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:12 PM

Is there a message in there somewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:20 PM

LH I totally disagree. The Us was not attacked by the people of Afghanistan. It was attacked by AQ. AQ was harbored and sheltered by the Taliban.

The Taliban moved in, Invaded, and filled the vacuum left when The US helped enabled them to drive off the invading Russians and then abandoned it, which was a mistake that we are now paying for. Much as pulling out now would abandon it and leave it to the Taliban again creating another mistake that we will have to pay for later.

Russia is complaining that the United States has not acted on information the top Russian anti-drug official provided about many narcotics laboratories in Afghanistan.

AP:

Victor Ivanov, the head of Russia's federal drug control agency, says he provided U.S. officials in Kabul months ago the coordinates of 175 laboratories where heroin is processed. He says U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency officials there have told him they are awaiting U.S. military approval to take down the labs.

"For some reason they are unable to carry out any operations to destroy these laboratories, because there is a delay from the military side," Ivanov told The Associated Press through an interpreter in an interview this week. Ivanov was in Washington for a meeting of a commission on drugs set up by the U.S. and Russian presidents to improve cooperation.

The DEA declined to comment except to say it does not confirm or deny information shared by other nations.

Russia has long complained that the U.S. and NATO refusal to implement poppy eradication programs in Afghanistan is contributing to a flood of Afghan heroin into Russia. U.S. officials have argued that destruction of poppy fields would drive Afghan farmers into the arms of the Taliban.

Russia claims that drug production in Afghanistan has increased exponentially since the U.S.-led invasion that overthrew the Taliban government in 2001. It says smugglers freely transport Afghan heroin and opium north into Central Asia and Russia and onward to Western Europe.

Ivanov has said that Russia alone has 2 million opium and heroin addicts.

NATO has urged Moscow to contribute to the war effort in Afghanistan by training more counternarcotics agents and providing helicopters to the Afghan government's air force.

Ivanov said he also has suggested going after the major landlords in Afghanistan's poppy-growing region by submitting their names to the United Nations for sanctions.

"It wouldn't be difficult to trace them," he said.

Ivanov said he discussed the issue with U.S. special envoy Richard Holbrooke and other officials Thursday, then left frustrated that they provided no evidence that poppy eradication would strengthen the Taliban.

"It sounded not like constructive discussion but a manifestation of stubbornness," he said. "I cannot say they are not listening. They are listening very carefully and attentively. But unfortunately, there are no results."

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:42 PM

Richard Bridge: "Is there a message in there somewhere?"

Go back to sleep..you must have needed a longer nap!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:43 PM

Peaceniks like LH like being all comfy and cozy and well cared for by their Government who protects their freedom of speech.

Then they use their freedom of speech to bad mouth their government for being so mean.

How does this work out for the people of North Korea? Cuba? Venezuela, Iran?

Jail time if they are lucky.

Show me the government that you approve of. The government you would be satisfied with, if there is such a thing. A perfect Government?

I will take my Government over any in the world despite it's flaws.

But it needs to forget the PC bullshit and "win" in Afghanistan "the war that must be won" or get the hell out.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:06 PM

Others were taken by force in the night, when heavily armed figures slunk into villages, demanding money and recruits. Some were even sold by their parents for 25,000 rupees (£180), the going rate paid by the TTP for a healthy teenager

How to defuse a human bomb: Rescuing the Taliban's teenage recruits
The Guardian, 16 October 2010

In Pakistan, young boys are being recruited as suicide bombers by the Taliban. Cathy Scott-Clark and Adrian Levy visit a new school that offers these brainwashed children a different future

The boy comes into view on the CCTV footage for just a few seconds, long enough to see that he is very young and wearing something bulky under his shalwar kameez. He walks purposefully through a crowd of worshippers gathering at Data Darbar Sufi shrine in Lahore, and then the screen is filled with a flash, followed by a juddering cloud of smoke. The blast settles to reveal a soundless world of body parts, shoes and clothes. The teenage suicide bomber killed himself and 45 others, and maimed 175 more, in this blast on 2 July 2010 – a good result for the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) that trained him, and another tragedy for Pakistan.

Abida Begum, a mother of six, living hundreds of miles away in the Swat Valley, in Pakistan's north-west, recalled seeing the footage on TV in the village shop and feeling nauseous. Every time she heard of a suicide blast, she immediately thought of Attaullah, her 14-year-old son, who had gone missing in February on his way to school. She suspected he had been abducted by the TTP which had seized control of Swat in 2008, transforming this erstwhile idyll of trout streams and ski slopes into a wasps' nest of blood-letting and terror. Hundreds of young boys from Abida's village of Kabal and those surrounding it had disappeared, pressed into the TTP's ranks, leaving once boisterous alleys and cart tracks deserted after dusk. The Pakistani army had launched an offensive to drive out the TTP in April 2009 – and even claimed victory at the end of last year – but the militants' influence was being felt once more, with the bullet-ridden bodies of those who crossed them turning up in local fields.

Many boys went voluntarily, lured by the swagger of the long-haired Islamic fighters. Others were taken by force in the night, when heavily armed figures slunk into villages, demanding money and recruits. Some were even sold by their parents for 25,000 rupees (£180), the going rate paid by the TTP for a healthy teenager.

The families of the missing boys always feared the worst. News filtered back that most were destined to become human bombs. Rumours spread that if the army caught them, they were summarily executed, a story that gained credibility last month when a mobile phone clip emerged in Swat showing soldiers killing six young blindfolded men by firing squad. The army claimed the footage was faked by the TTP, but the human cost of the teen recruits was undeniable. For three years, a legion of these "dumb bombs", as the locals called them, had terrorised the country, claiming 3,500 lives in 200 attacks.

The night of the Lahore blast, Abida went to bed imagining Attaullah, a knockabout kid who had loved his English classes best, coerced into a nylon jacket packed with explosives and flesh-ripping ball bearings. Days later, she heard an extraordinary story from a neighbour, this woman's son had vanished, too, but after more than a year he had, miraculously, come home.

Recruited by the TTP, the boy confirmed he had been locked into a programme to produce martyrs. However, before he could be utilised, the army had busted his training camp. Rather than killing everyone in it, the soldiers had taken several boys to their base at Malakand Pass, 30 miles south-east of Kabal, putting them in a kind of reform school along with dozens more young, would-be suicide bombers. They were fed, clothed, taught English and allowed to play volleyball and cricket. Respected religious scholars patiently explained how killing civilians was wrong according to the Qur'an. Psychologists counselled them. Some were eventually allowed back home.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:21 PM

This is one part of a 6 part series.
Sawzaw......Check this out



GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:25 PM

As time fleets by, the more proper question might well be, "Will Afghanistan become another Korea?".

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:48 PM

John on the Sunset Coast: "....Will Afghanistan become another Korea?"

Nope. The reasons for being there and the agendas are too far different. After WWII, Americans had a greater sense of freedom, duty, and genuine empathy for the victims of oppression, and would fight to preserve a will for freedom.....Now, its all 'national security' based on what corporations are still here, and who can afford to 'buy' our military, to perform what needs to be done, to achieve their goals...then sell it to the American people. Shit, they even have their own private 'security forces' (read: paid thugs).

There was a greater sense of honor back then....though corruption was certainly a factor....but now, it's so shot to hell, I sincerely doubt if America will survive to see another generation, come and go.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 03:06 PM

The similarity to Vietman will be in the endgame, in both Iraq and Afghanistan...... when America leaves its pawns to their fate.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 04:06 PM

Hello Ake!!!! How ya' been a farin'?

I've been mostly off for a while....but glad to see you still have common sense!

Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:51 PM

Hi Sanity...We've all missed ya!

Theres even been a thread started demandin'your return!   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:39 PM

Soresore - a huge pile of irrelevancy and no train of thought from you (as usual).

The USA and the UK (etc) have no right to interfere in internal Afghani matters as such. It's a shame, but that's the state of play.

They do have a right to defend themselves against aggressors within Afghanistan targetting targets outside Afghanistan.

In pursuing that right they do not have the right to devastate the country or kill its people (other than such aggressors).

None of which addresses the OP's point - can the USA (and UK) get out without (a) getting massacred in the process or (b) leaving things worse than before or so that they will get worse than before?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:37 PM

Akenaton: "Theres even been a thread started demandin'your return!   :0)"


Really???...jeez, I must have 'missed' it!

I was doing some serious music stuff, and took a break from the forum, because the ideological rhetoric was beyond the realm of coherent!

Some idiots would have the country fail rather that acknowledge that without this country, and what it was founded on, they wouldn't have the rights or freedom to bath in the luxury of their stupid opinions, that are bent on removing those very freedoms!

Anyway, glad to hear from you!..and a hello, to all the Mudcatters!
I'll keep in mind to try to 'stimulate' whatever minds are out there, to write lyrics, that take in a wider range of thought!

This political shit is just that.....SHIT!...and destructive, at that!

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:43 PM

I think Bridge has covered it.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:02 PM

Let's get real here...

Both Iraq and Afganistan are current day Vietnams...

The only difference is that the US didn't have Vietnam as a model of what-not-to-do when Kennedy, then Johnson, escalated it... Yeah, they did have the French gettin' their asses kicked in '53 but, hey, thems was the French and not ***THE*** mighty US of A...

But Bush and the neocons had Vietnam as a model yet plowed into Afganistan and Iraq anyway...

Insanity: Repeating a behavior expecting different results...

But yeah... How do you spell quagmire???

And as much as the current crop of Repubs want to stick these wars on Obama, he didn't call 'um up so that dog don't hunt...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 10:31 PM

Yeah "Insanity: Repeating a behavior expecting different results..."

Driving out the Russian invaders, getting out and let the Taliban invade and take over.

Driving out the Taliban, leaving and letting the Taliban invade and take over.

"How do you spell quagmire???" Political Correctness.

"he didn't call 'um up so that dog don't hunt.." "

"I have always been for the war in Afghanistan" "the war that we have to win" But don't call him a war criminal just because he orders up drone strikes that kill innocent men women or children.

This is OK with Bobert:

The Obama administration has authorised [he didn't call 'um up, he just authorized 'um] 125 drone strikes so far, twice the number George Bush used in his last five years in power.
The Pashtun tribesmen have several nicknames for the drones that endlessly circle over their mud-walled mountain villages. Some call them "wasps" or "mosquitoes", after the low buzz emitted by the pilotless aircraft's small engines.

But the most telling name is "bangana", the Pashto word for a thunderclap, after the terrifying impact of a laser-guided Hellfire missile as it slams into a building, often obliterating everyone inside.

Since the CIA launched its first drone strike in Pakistan in June 2004, killing a young Taliban leader, such missile attacks have become an everyday event in North and South Waziristan, along the troubled Afghan border.

Predator and larger Reaper drones have killed up to 1,800 people, according to media estimates gathered by the New American Foundation, including at least two dozen senior al-Qaida operatives and hundreds of more junior militants.

But the drones also kill many civilians, the exact toll is hotly contested and debate rages, in Pakistan and abroad, about whether they ultimately quell militancy or encourage it.

Washington has few doubts. So far Barack Obama has signed off on over 125 strikes, twice the number authorised by George Bush during the last five years of his presidency. Manufacturers are scrambling to keep up with demand from the CIA.[stimulus spending]

In the latest attack yesterday, a missile hit a vehicle near Mir Ali, a notorious militant hub in North Waziristan. The identity of those killed was not known.

Pakistanis are distinctly less enthusiastic about the strikes. One US-funded survey of 1,000 tribal residents last summer found that more than three-quarters of people oppose the drone strikes. Only 16% think the strikes accurately target militants while 48% think they mostly kill civilians.

There is evidence the drones exact a heavy psychological strain. Pharmacists report high sales of sedatives and anti-depressants among tribesmen.

Equally serious is the impact on broader Pakistani opinion. Public fury about the drone strikes stoke anti-Americanism in a country where, according to one survey last summer, 60% of people see the US as an enemy. [Obama miraculously repairs America's image abroad]

Drone attacks in Pakistan's tribal belt are controlled by the CIA – the US military runs a separate programme, although the two sometimes cooperate. The unmanned aircraft lift off from a remote desert airstrip in western Balochistan province but are operated by operators sitting behind video terminals at CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

Targets are identified using electronic surveillance and human informers operating inside the tribal belt. Bob Woodward's recent book alleges that the CIA pays 3,000 Afghans to help hunt militants in Pakistan. [job creation]

Intelligence officials say many of those paid by the CIA work as target "spotters" in Waziristan; those caught by militants are usually beheaded.[health care cost reduction]

bangana, bangana
bangana ees goood enuf for meee.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 10:58 PM

Easy to criticize tactics, ain't it, Sawz???

So what is yer plan 'er the Repub's plan??? Continue a conventional war and get alot of our kids killed and still no "victroy" at the end??? Fight smarter (drones)??? Quit???

Ain't a lot of options here and none of them is going to go down too well on the heels of trying to get out of Bush's other mess, Iraq...

So, yeah, Sawz... Be real glad to hear yer plan... In yer own words, thankee... And two or three paragraphs should do fine... I mean, easy to play armchair quarterback and watching the replays and tellin' the QB to throw to the H-Back... Quite another to be that QB...

So what's the plan, Sawz???

Ake???

bb???

Anyone else???

I mean, we are fucked no matter... We have messed up so bad that there ain't no real exit strategy that's gonna be all that much fun...

Plans???

(Maybe they have "secret plans", Bobert??? You know, just like Nixon said he had during the '68 election campaign...)

Well, yeah... That plan sho nuff secret... So secret that Nixon hisseff didn't even know it??? Now that is, ahhhhh, secret...

So, ya'll Obama haters, what's yer plan??? What, cat got ya'lls tounge???

Square business...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:18 PM

Nevrmind, Sawz...

Just read on the other thread that yer plan is the John Wayne plan... Fine... You want in on it??? I got some contacts that might be able to arrange fir you and a few of yer buds to be on that front line that is gonna do better than our kids are doing now in Afganistan...

(But, Boberdz... Our kids are doing great... It's the leaders who won't let them go out and fight!!!)

Where the hell did you come up with that idea???

(Fox...)

That explains alot...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:51 AM

"The USA and the UK (etc) have no right to interfere in internal Afghani matters as such."

In what way are the USA and the UK interfering in Afghanistan's internal affairs? Do you deny that the "rulers" of Afghanistan came to an agreement with the United Nations (See Bonn Agreement 5th December 2001)? Do you deny the role of the United Nations in Afghanistan, the other 41 countries involved, the existence of UNAMA or ISAF?

"None of which addresses the OP's point - can the USA (and UK) get out without (a) getting massacred in the process or (b) leaving things worse than before or so that they will get worse than before?"

(a) - There are no massacres taking place after the same time in Afghanistan the Soviets had lost 15,031 killed. ISAF/US-OEF have lost just under 2,000 killed

(b) - Considering what was happening in Afghanistan before October 2001 under Taliban rule it is impossible for things to get worse, although the scale of the disaster if the participating UN member states cut and run as many advocate would be worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:16 AM

Easy to criticize tactics, ain't it, Bobert???

Course you gotta have something to criticize first.

It should be perused like a conventional war instead of a PC war.

Of course you can throw out a plan for us. Can't you?

You do have the $2.95 documentation about the bad gas don't you?

Would you rather have a John Wayne war or a Pee Wee Herman war?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:24 AM

Bottom line??? Neither, Swaz...

As for the bad gas??? Refresh my memory... I don't know what you are talking about...

As for your John Wayne war strategy??? It failed miseably in Vietnam and inspite of alot of folks clinging to the mythology that we just didn't do all we could do to win it another 10 years wouldn't have changed anything except the lenght of the wall at the Vietnam War Memorial...

That's where we'd be if we took yer advice and turned the Afganistan war into some John Wane movie... You need to bring down yer expectaions based on reality... Reality is that when the US goes into a village they don't know who is Taliban and who isn't... Sound familar??? I mean, the Viet Cong were the same... Who knows???

Maybe your p[lan is to just nuke the entire country and put a flag down in the middle of it, I donno... I do know that the strategy that you have put forth ios not at all realistic...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:07 AM

Fact. Afghanistan did not attack us.
Fact. Iraq did not attack us.
Fact. we invaded Iraq in 1991 and that is why they hate us. It has nothing to do with our freedom.
We were attacked by a gang of extremists who are fed up with the way we have treated Muslims for centuries. That gang was mostly Saudis. Why didn't the moron invade Saudi Arabia?

We need to get the hell out of other people's business. We are bleeding to death over there. 1.1 trillion dollars and counting.

This country could be a paradise on earth if we could stop invading other countries. It is our arrogance that makes us universally hated, and if you don't think so, travel and ask. They don't hate us individually but they do hate what our government is doing. In that, I agree with them.
John Wayne was a second rate actor who never spoke a word that wasn't written down by someone else.
He never served in the military and was not a hero.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM

Well said, Capt'n....

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:44 PM

kendall: "Fact. Afghanistan did not attack us.
Fact. Iraq did not attack us.
Fact. we invaded Iraq in 1991 and that is why they hate us. It has nothing to do with our freedom.
We were attacked by a gang of extremists who are fed up with the way we have treated Muslims for centuries. That gang was mostly Saudis. Why didn't the moron invade Saudi Arabia?"

Are you saying WE have treated Muslims unjustly for centuries???
OR
We should have attacked Saudi Arabia??????

Kendall, Pardon me, but, You are not making sense!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:52 PM

Pardon me, my mistake....we didn't attack Saudi Arabia, because Saudi Arabia wanted us to attack Iraq, and Afghanistan....and we 'owe' them. Just ask the Bushes, and follow the money trail on campaign donations!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM

I think I was quite clear, but for you I will say it this way. No we should not have invaded Saudi Arabia, and we should not have invaded Iraq or Afghanistan either.
What those people did was a criminal act, by a handful of extremists, not a country.So it was not an act of war.

Let's go back to the Crusades when King Richard had 150,000 Muslims and Jews butchered. That's a good place to start the hatred. Yes, I know we were not involved with the Crusades but we claim to be a Christian nation and I'm sure they hate us for that too.Plus, we support their worst enemy, Israel. Any fool can understand why they hate us.

I still say if we stop bombing women and children over there and start minding our own business it would lower the temperature.
They hate us and we have given them reason to.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:00 PM

Funny, the post eater has been at it again.

Teribus points to "the Bonn Agreement of the 5th December 2001". The US Afghan invasion started months before that. I'd call that interference.

There is no realistic way to question that the Afghanistan "government" is a US puppet. I'd call that interference.

Come on "Bomber Harris". Tell us. Are the US going to "win the war" and if so how? Local resistance is a hydra. Every Taliban member killed ensures two more. Every non-Taliban-member killed ensures ten more. If the US don't win, how are they going to get out without being massacred on the ground? If Pakistan blockades the ingoing passes how will the US get in enough fuel and ordnance even to defend themselves? When the US leave how is what is left going to be better?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:03 PM

It's another Vietnam. Let's get the fuck out and leave them in peace to live however they want to live.

In the Uk we have more pressing issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Afghanistan become another Vietnam?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:35 PM

kedall: "...Yes, I know we were not involved with the Crusades but we claim to be a Christian nation and I'm sure they hate us for that too.Plus, we support their worst enemy, Israel. Any fool can understand why they hate us...."

Too bad they can't get along with Israel. That is their own bullshit. They need to work that out!

So, would you say that it was their 'mistake' to a aggressors, toward the U.S.?....and if so, what would you think should be our response?

Was the USS Cole a miscalculated 'mistake'? The embassy bombing?
And how about the counties housing and financing them?...a 'mistake'?

Don't get me wrong, I despise war as much as any of you...and I also look at the ideologies that favor war, to achieve their agendas,..including OURS!

The problem is, if we are going to defend ourselves, which we have the right to do, let's not use that 'opportunity' to bilk our country out of billions of dollars and waste lives, on both sides, for profit. In this manner, Vietnam and the Middle East are similar, because of the profiteering and the accommodations made for it!

By the way, it is those same accommodations that the U.S. will NOT secure our southern border.....money drugs and arms sales...NOT pity the poor immigrants!!!! Somebody, here on this side, is making a lot of bread, screwing us over, and selling us another line of bullshit.
30,000 Mexican nationals have been murdered by the Mexican drug cartels (as reported last night), THIS YEAR ALONE!!!...and we do nothing, but accommodate them. Don't you think some Washington politicians are lining their pockets, while holding up securing our borders?...and interfering with the people of Arizona, who actually want to do something about it?? Doesn't the people of Arizona have a Constitutional Right to defend themselves against a foreign power invading them, while our own government allows it, for the sake of drug profits????...or is that just a 'mistake' by some drug dealers, without the help from BOTH CORRUPT governments???

This may get even nastier, and instead of our government taking action against the perpetrators of this activity, they will turn against its own citizens, to facilitate every dime they can make off it!...and it's on BOTH sides of the aisle!

....and I'm right about this one, too..though some idiot-logue will get all nasty with me about it, citing 'humanitarian' reasons...and looking the other way, while 30,000+ more people are murdered!!

But, thank you for clarifying.

Respectfully,

GfS