Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane

Subject: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:03 AM

like charity shops and recently was in Malmsbury, Wilthshire, England and came across this

Cochrane
The Life And Exploits of a Fighting Captain, by Richard Harvey £2.99

All about England's forgotten other Hero

Earl of Dundonald, Lord Thomas Cochrane

Fought many battles against the French and won. Freed Chile, Peru and Brazil form the Portuguese. Greece from the Turks. Etc.

Cant seem to find any songs about him.

Loads about Nelson. Nothing about this man.

What do you know ?

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:10 AM

Earlier thread on Cochrane . Don't think we've found a song about him yet.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: gnomad
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:26 AM

No, I too know of no songs about Cochrane. Given the British fondness for flawed heroes and his thoroughly chequered career this is a bit surprising.

He was allegedly an inspiration behind both Horatio Hornblower and Capt. Jack Aubrey, so not ignored by 20th century authors.

I had never heard of the man until I read Sharpe's Devil (by Bernard Cornwell) and can only assume that Victorian sensibilities managed to largely airbrush him out of popular history. If you enjoy a bit of historical fiction the Cornwell book is worth a look. The notes fill in a bit of info on Cochrane's career, and indicate that there is a good biography "Cochrane" by Donald Thomas (Pub. Andre Deutsch, 1978) but I haven't seen a copy yet.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:45 AM

There's also Robert Harvey's 'Liberators - South America's Savage Wars of Freedom 1810-1830' published in 2000 which has a number of sections on Cochrane. He was Scottish, by the way, not English.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:49 AM

In a remote corner of my mind, there's a speculation that I may once have seen a ballad about Speedy, Cochrane's most famous command. Or is it just wishful thinking? Seems a very likely candidate, of course.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:57 AM

Terry McDonald

I know he was Scottish. I read the book.

He fought for England.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:06 AM

Have to see if I can't find this somewhere.

'Cochrane the Dauntless' by David Cordingly

It was 150 years since his Death in October 2010.

Thanks to you all for the info so far.

Chas

PS.
Should add he fought for Chile, Peru, Brazil and Greece too.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:12 AM

Charles - he fought after the union of 1707, therefore he fought for Britain, not 'England'.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:15 AM

He died in 1856.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:26 AM

The Kingdom of Great Britain resulted from the political union of the kingdoms of England and Scotland with the Acts of Union 1707 on 1 May 1707 under Queen Anne. In 1801, under a new Act of Union, this kingdom merged with the Kingdom of Ireland to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. After the Irish War of Independence most of Ireland seceded from the Union, which then became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.<<<< Wiki
====

Lord Cochrane was later than either of these first two formulations, & therefore arguably British, and could be said to have fought for Great Britain, or even the United Kingdom in its original form.

Possibly the lack of song is due to his having subsequently fallen out of favour, dismissed the service and falsely imprisoned for fraud ~~ though later receiving a royal pardon. In the interim between release and pardon he fought for S American navies, receiving a Brazilian marquessate which, tho not strictly hereditary, appears still used by the Earls of Dundonald {the Wiki entry under Dundonald most informative}. I can't see, though, on second thoughts, that these misfortunes should have inhibited any ballad-making contemporaneous with his victories, and agree that the lack of songs about him is surprising.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:41 AM

Chas - the book you cited at the beginning of this thread is by Robert Harvey, not Richard and he was also the author of the one I mentioned about South America's 'Liberators.'

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 07:22 AM

by Robert Harvey, not Richard

Yes so it is.
I liked my "Hornblower" books as a kid.

I think Mr Cochrane was a great guy. Should have thought that the ballad writers of the day would have produced something.

There is a song in the book in Portuguese.

Keep searching everyone.There must be something somewhere. Not knowingly attributed to him.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 08:54 AM

There are other books about Cochrane, including his own 'Autobiography of a Seaman', and biographies by David Cordingley and Donald Thomas. By the way he was never 'Mr' Cochrane. He was Lord Cochrane first (a courtesy title of his father) and after his father's death Earl of Dundonald.

He was also a very outspoken Radical MP, which didn't endear him to the establishment. He was a Admiral of four different nations, Greece, Brazil, Chile and the UK.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 09:22 AM

Nor, to be really pedantic, was he ever "Lord Thomas Cochrane", as in OP ~~ for that he would have had to be a younger son of a Duke or Marquis, which he wasn't. But one can induce a sort of trancelike state if one contemplates for too long the intricacies of the correct titles of various members of the British aristocracy, and their various offspring {2nd titles as courtesy titles, Lord ... ..., Lady ... ..., Honourables, &c}!

Drifting slightly, I have always thought it a terrible injustice that all the daughters of an Earl bear the style Lady Forename Surname [e.g. Lady Mary Smith]; but, while his eldest son bears his father's 2nd title by courtesy {like Lord Cochrane}, his younger sons are only Honourables. I have often thought that, if I were an Earl's younger son, I should hate my sisters!

~M~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 09:37 AM

A very intriguing character I'd agree, and I've enjoyed reading more about him through the years but I've never run across a ballad. Thee's nothing in Ashton's REAL SAILOR SONGS and nothing in DIBDIN'S SEA SONGS, nor in THE SAILOR'S GARLAND, nor in the Oxford book SEA SONGS AND BALLADS.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 09:41 AM

Marquess, Mike, not Marquis.........

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 09:48 AM

No, Terry: both given as acceptable alternatives in Chambers, COD, Hamlyn's ~~ the only 3 dictionaries I have within arm's reach of where I sit at my computer screen. But just you look up a few more & I will give you plenty of 9-5 that you will find the same!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 09:53 AM

Moreover, I happen to have been at college with the Marquis of Headfort {now alas deceased} who always insisted he was a Marquis, not a Marquess.

I don't usually drop names [fingers crossed!]: but I am like the animal in the proverb, who is "very vicious; when attacked he defends himself"...

~M~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 10:17 AM

For pedantic Terry McDonald

According to MY "The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea

Cochrane Thomas
10th Earl of Dundonald (1775 - 1860)
Therefore October 2010 = 150 years after his Death.


Charley Noble Quote
Oh I think I have that one didn't think to look there.

Thanks Charley.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 10:21 AM

Charley Noble Quote

Ooops forgot that bit.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 10:22 AM

Oxford book SEA SONGS AND BALLADS

That's three times might work this time

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Pibydd
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 11:12 AM

Almost unbelievable that it was said he was "England's" hero. Almost.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 11:15 AM

Almost unbelievable that it was said he was "England's" hero. Almost.

Just me waving the flag of St George.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 11:42 AM

Mike - don't care, it's Marquess. Ask the bloke at Longleat. Your school friend did indeed call himself a Marquis but I suspect Burke's Peerage or Debrett didn't.

Also, Chas, I'm going by Harvey's book which is (I reckon) a more scholarly and therefore more reliable source than the Oxford Companion - but I could be wrong!

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 12:06 PM

Chas - you're correct. I've just checked the Royal Navy Museum's site and it confirms October 1860. My 'Harvey' (the one about South American history) says 1862 - I wonder what yours (Cochrane's bio)says?

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 12:15 PM

Terry, I reach out & pick up Concise Oxford, nearest dictionary to hand. Here is the entry exactly, omitting only stress marks which too much hassle. Note order of entry:

=======================
marquis, marquess, n. nobleman ranking between duke and (in the UK) earl or (elsewhere) count.
=======================

Know better, do you? Then I hope it keeps fine for you. Try any dictionary and you'll find the same. I admit most directories give the -ess form, the other being more old-fashioned. But both are acceptable, & if you think not, then I don't care either.

Anyhow, the Longleat geezer is one of the nation's most notable loonies! I shouldn't rely too much on him as an exemplar if I were you...

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 01:44 PM

I suspect that the affair at the Basque Roads might have had an effect of his popularity with his superiors...and the public.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 03:21 PM

Admiral Gambier, who commanded at Basque Roads, had the service nickname of 'Dismal Jimmy'.

Like many other military Lord Cochrane leaders didn't make things easy for others who did not share his opinions. Even though he was often right that didn't necessarily help. Although he was a popular hero he contrived to make planty of enemies. Unfortunately for him his enemies were more powerful than his friends.

Sir Sidney Smith was another great naval captain who contrived to make enemies, mainly when he was serving in the Swedish Navy and some of his opponents were fellow British officers serving the Russians. If you've enjoyed reading about Cochrane, you might try Sir Sidney Smith next.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 03:25 PM

And to bring it back to music, there is a Sir Sidney Smith's march!

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 03:36 PM

If you would like an exposition of Sir Sidney Smith's part in the loss of Toulon, read the Alan Lewrie adventures by Dewey Lambdin. {Much better writing than O'Brian}

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 03:44 PM

England's other hero. May I suggest Lord Collingwood. Born in Newcastle-on-Tyne, he was definitely English.

He was Nelson's no. 2 at Trafalgar and took command on Nelson's death, successfully ensuring that the British Fleet survived the gales after the battle. He is considered Nelson's equal in seamanship, though maybe not as daring.

After Trafalgar he was promoted to Commander in Chief of the Mediterranean fleet and proved himself an effective diplomat as well as a fine sailor. The Admiralty refused to let him retire when his health began to fail "on the ground that his country could not dispense with his services." It is thought he was kept in post to prevent a member of the Royal Family (I did hear who, but I have forgotten now) succeeding him because of the rule of seniority in promotion, said member of the Royal family being incompetent. He died of cancer in service.

He is celebrated round Tyneside with streets being named after him and there is large statue of him at Tynemouth. He seems relatively little known outside of his native Tyneside, in spite of his record with Nelson taking all the glory.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 03:48 PM

Collingwood. Yes mentioned in the song "Pace Egging"

Cochrane. No mentions at all.

This is what it's about Tootler.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:35 PM

There is also the song Bold Nelson's Praise ~~ "There was Sidney Smith and Duncan too, Lord Howe and all that glorious crew": let's hear it for Duncan & Howe likewise.

But also, again, I agree, for Cochrane, who doesn't make it there either.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 07:07 PM

Ah but Fidjit, Cochrane was Scots, Collingwood was English.

The thread title says "English"

That's also what it's about.

I have no objection to praising an unsung Scots hero, after all I was born in Aberdeen, but we must get these things right.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 08:04 PM

'It is thought he was kept in post to prevent a member of the Royal Family (I did hear who, but I have forgotten now) succeeding him because of the rule of seniority in promotion, said member of the Royal family being incompetent. He died of cancer in service.'

It didn't work like that. Promotion was by seniority, but commands (like Commander-in-Chief Mediterranean) were decided by the Admiralty. He was a junior Vice-Admiral commanding in the Mediterranean in spite of there being officers senior to him. He was succeeded by Vice-Admiral Sir Charles Cotton, then Vice-Admiral Sir Edward Pellew, who was recalled from the East Indies command. Cotton didn't last long - he went back to take over the Channel Fleet from Gambier and died soon after. Nelson himself was only ever a Vice-Admiral.

Because promotion beyond the rank of Captain was only by seniority there were quite a few elderly Admirals around who weren't really suitable for sea service. It was possible to retire officers when they reached Flag Rank (appointed as Rear-Admiral without distinction of squadron - coloquially known as a 'Yellow Admiral'). This what happened to the chap who became King William 4th (Sailor Billy) who is the only Royal Family member I can think of to whom Tootler may be alluding, although he wasn't particularily incompetent, but lacked experience.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: ollaimh
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 01:09 AM

byron's uncle "mad jack" byron was also a sea captain of interest who fought the daring style when given the chance.

he fought the last battle of the seven years war in canada in the baie de chaleur in new brunswick where he captured or sank the last french relief attempt for the city of quebec and environs.

a cat and mouse affair with the smaller fench ships seeking shelter in a bay where byrons ships of the line were loath to go, but the french were looking for a favourable opportunity to break out without facing the guns of the ships of the line. mad jack adopted a conservative stradegy(for him) and stood off to picket the bay. ultimately he caught the french in their break out attempt. the ruins of a few of the ships are still up there on the shore of the baie de chaleur.

an odd uncle(or maybe great uncle) for the famous poet.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 01:41 AM

A real drift: but may be of interest in this context & talking of ancestors. Peter Bellamy used to have a framed & mounted cocked-hat on the wall of his fascinatingly decorated home. It came down from his how-manyth great-whatever, Surgeon-Commander Bellamy, who had served under Nelson; though not, he thought, at Trafalgar.

There's glory for you ~~

♫ Bold Nelson's Praise... ♫

♥♫❤Michael❤♫♥

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 02:56 AM

I fail to see how his Scottish birth disbars him from being England's hero. Apart from the fact that England and Britain were used interchangeably at that time he was a hero TO England if not FROM England. There's a few people like that, Wellington, Florence Nightingale (named after her birthplace IIRC).

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 03:59 AM

Thank you Manitas.

Now lets get down to the "Nitty Gritty".

WHERE ARE THE SONGS ?

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: mayomick
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:04 AM

Another of my pet theories has just gone down davy jones locker with this thread . I had been thinking that you would have had a better chance of getting a song written about you if your name happened to rhyme well rather than on account of any heroic deeds you might have performed 'gainst France or Spain. And yet Cochrane hits with all the right nautical rhymes : briny main ,lashing rain , timbers rent in twain , seamen plain etc etc.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: BobKnight
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:27 AM

Maybe the English just couldn't pronounce his name. :)

That's "Cochrane," with a soft "ch" as in loch, and there is no emphasis on the "rane" bit which should sound more like "rin."

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:33 PM

OK. Cock rin we can make that rhyme too.

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 01:07 PM

Michael - there was a George Bellamy who served as Surgeon from 1795 though not on the Trafalgar Muster Roll. He wouldn't be Surgeon-Commander though. In those days Surgeon was only a Warrant rank.

I wonder if Pete ever considered writing a song about the hat. That could have been some song.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 01:10 PM

Wouldn't the Surgeon of the Fleet be considered an officer rather than a warrant?

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 02:26 PM

Lord Cochrane

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 02:52 PM

A ship's surgeon was a warrant post, although considered 'of wardroom rank' and so messed with other officers, Lieutenants and Marine Officers who were commissioned officers. The other warrant officers 'of wardroom rank' were the Purser, the Master and the Chaplain (in the rare cases the ship had one). Surgeon of the Fleet was a position not a rank and the occupant would proably be medically qualified and obviously a gentleman. But still a warrant officer.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 03:19 PM

Still no song eh? Cochrane featured in several cartoons featuring events in his life, particularily the Gilray cartoon about the Westminster election of 1807. Perhaps the Chileans have a song about their beloved Almirante Cochrane. Meanwhile here's what Walter Scott wrote about his missus.

Even now, as through the air the plaudits rung,
I marked the smiles that in her features came;
She caught the word that fell from every tongue,
And her eye brightened at her Cochrane's name;
And brighter yet became her bright eyes' blaze;
It was his country, and she felt the praise."

If someone fancied writing a Cochrane song, might I suggest basing it on the often-reproduced recruiting poster for the 'Flying' Pallas, turning it into a recuiting song.

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 05:38 PM

Les from Hull Said.

Chileans have a song about their beloved Almirante Cochrane.

Yes they did it's in the book page. 229 and 230

Extracts from Pablo Neruda's, Cochrane de Chile (1970)

Chas

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 01:05 AM

Les ~~ but a Surgeon [Warrant Officer] would not have worn an officer's cocked hat, would he: even if by courtesy admitted to the Ward Room? How about a Commander [quite high rank, equiv to army Lt-Colonel IIRC] who happened to be medically qualified? Pete never told me his ancestor's name, but had the hat distinctly labelled with the name "Surgeon-Commander Bellamy". AFAIK did not consider writing a song about his hat. Where did you find the muster-roll of Nelson's fleet: many congratulations on your research. On which ships did George Bellamy serve, do you know?

Whence, too, comes the Scott quote? & was he, as it appears from it, married to a Miss Cochrane who was related to the admiral?

~M~

Subject: RE: Englands other Hero, Lord Cochrane
From: eddie1
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 02:43 AM

I wish - and not just for this reason - that Cyril Tawney was still with us.
He could have come up with a great song. Either deeply serious, hero-worshipping and patriotic or hilarious but whatever he went for, it would heve been a great song!

Eddie