BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

EBarnacle sez Regrettably, she has what amounts to forever to recover. What is true today is likely to be invisible tomorrow

And what's truth to a Tea Partier anyway?

Bill D sez I am, though, in favor of some way of doing what this Arizona law seems to be after.... a way of investigating those who appear to their peers as unstable and 'treating' (whatever that might mean) them to lessen the odds of trouble... and in MY opinion, 'treating' would include putting them on a **DO NOT SELL GUNS TO THESE FOLKS** list.

That would involve, um, gun control. And even one gun control law clearly puts us on a slippery slope to a gunless USA. Or so sez the NRA and its minions. Making this a "good effing luck" sort of proposition.

olddude sez: Ok here is the bottom line, we can blame the media, the parties, our society, firearms, we can blame string theory if we want. But one thing I am certain, we are doing little to identify and help those that are truly mentally disturbed, unless we get a workable handle on that... look for more of this stuff and it doesn't have to be with a firearm either ...

But that would require public spending.

Bobert sez: If 20 Congressman were shot nothing would change unless we could get private money out of politics...

If 20 Republican congressmen were shot, something would certainly change. They would find a way to make it the Democrats' fault and haul all their asses to prison -- or something unsavory.

And goes on to say: BTW, Wikipedia isn't always correct... There are moderators who struggle with folks trying to get their stuff into it... It's a push pull on a daily basis with folks trying to change the story, which BTW, is changeable...

Particularly the political hot button issues.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:26 PM

30,896 in 2006

library.med.utah

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:37 PM

Yer correct, mouse, but if we look back at recent history --- you know, like the last 40 years -- the folks gettin' offed are on the left side of the political divide... Plus, it ain't the left that is pissed off at government, been told it's okay to fuck someone up with "2nd Amendment" remedies and the real biggie here...

... is armed to the teeth... I read recently that there are 9 guns for every 10 people in America... Throw in alot of kids and old people in nursing home and lefties who tend to not buy into that "Obama is going to take yer guns" making folks run to the gun stores to stock up and what we have is one heck of alot of righties packin' lots of heat...

That ain't meant to be "uncivil" thems just the facts...

Yeah, everyone says that both sides should be listening to the other side but the right side has had the mi9crophone so long that it's their side that gets repeated over and over and over... I mean, there is not one issue that I could argue the right's position on right off the top of my head... That's how much the left has had to listen, like it or not, to this drumbeat of rightwinged propaganda... No, this ain't about civility... When is it time for the right to have to listen???

(Never, Boberdz... That's when... We own everything and if you don't like it, go **** yerself...)

Yeah, that's about it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 04:23 AM

Ebbie, I have re-read my posts and I do not know what you are referring to or where you picked up your obvious misquote. Almost and murder??? Huh?

The thing about rights, our God-given rights according to the Declaration, is that they are your rights! You can't give them up as they are unalienable. They are part and parcel of what you are as a human being. If you abuse your rights at the expense of another person's rights then you have jeopardized your rights and a jury of peers can take various actions to remedy the abuse or abuses. Everyone has the right to defend their life and the lives of the innocent folks in their house and community. And we have the right to be able to meet force with force sufficient to counter whatever force is weilded aganst us, hence we have the right to keep and bear arms. It is the resposiblity of the person to conduct himself or herself in a way that does not threaten or abuse the rights of others and our laws are, or were originally, designed to delineate those responsibilities and to provide penalty and compensation for abuses.

If someone has demonstrated mental illness of the type and to the degree which constitutes a threat, they need to be identified and limited in their personal sovereignty, that is as a free moral agent.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:53 AM

BTW, Wikipedia isn't always correct..

Jeez- BlogOPedia WRONG?? Can't be.Say it ain't so! Its posted on the Internet - gotta be true!!

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:02 PM

Some comic relef:

Hi, I am a Teapartier!

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:08 PM

relief.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:31 PM

Now Palin says that she didn't take the map down from her site nor was it any of her advisers but rather the graphic artist who made the map. Yeah, apparently this guy, whoever he is, can just go on Palin's site and add or remove anything he wants to. Why did he decide to take it down? He felt responsible. Not Palin, the artist. HE felt responsible, she couldn't give half a shit.

I suppose he also had total access to her Facebook page and took down the "Don't retreat instead reload" statement as well.

Kind of makes you wonder who is running things at Palin Central.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:56 PM

Forget Sarah Plain, josz... She has completely marginalized herself this time...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:49 PM

Bobert, read your own posts- you said 30,000 murders at the end of your post 17 Jan.
I posted a correction.

The U. S. has a suicide rate of 11.1 per 100,000 population, ranking 40th on the list, a relatively low rate, Canucks at 11.6, 35th on the list. The Brits have a low rate, but France, Finland, etc. have a high rate (17 per 100,000).

Suicides have nothing to do with handgun violence; it is largely a mental health problem, plus those choosing a quick way out of life-ending illnesses. For those wanting to depart this scene, a gun is quicker than hanging or poison, and jumping out of a high window leaves a mess to be cleaned up.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 02:27 PM

In my book suicide is murder... It is the one sin that cannot be forgiven...

And one does have to wonder how many suicides would be prevented if there weren't so many guns... Can't be proven one way or another... Yeah, one can make a statement that "Ralph would have just found another way to kill himself"... That is opinion...

So to say that suicide has nothing to do with handgun violence is your opinion, Q... Maybe you haven't personally had to deal with a family member who has committed suicide... Ask folks who have... It most certainly is violence... Like I said, the only sin for which God cannot forgive...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 03:20 PM

Slag sez: [b]The thing about rights, our God-given rights according to the Declaration, is that they are your rights! You can't give them up as they are unalienable. They are part and parcel of what you are as a human being. [/b]

So you don't believe the state has the right to incarcerate or to inflict capital punishment?

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 03:48 PM

Note that the rights enumerated in the Declartion of Independence say nothing about guns, even though they do address quartering soldiers in private homes.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 04:00 PM

Nothing to do with the shooting of Giffords, but suicide is a good way to end a painful, uncurable condition. One shot between the eyes and goodnight.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:01 PM

Not many people commit suicide to end a painful, uncurable condition...

The entire de-valuation of life permeates our society... If it's not the 300,000,000 guns, most of which are people-killing handguns it's our graphic movies, video games, music, etc... The 31 round clip sends a loud message that life has little value... People don't hunt with Glocks... They buy them to shoot people... Or target practice so that they will have higher skills at shooting people... Having been in a shoot club as a youngster and military training I am purdy darned good with a gun, one shot at a time... I fired a Glock a couple years ago and once the first round is fired the accuracy goes way down if opne is firing rapidly... Now I'm sure that Rap can handle a Glock a little better but the issue here is that in the average shooter's hands a Glock, especially with 31 rounds and adrenalin pumping is a very dangerous weapon...

Had someone at the Safeway parking lot in Tuscon had a Glock, unless they were ***highly skilled*** then it could have been twice the number of people shot... But like who cares, right Q???

I mean, let's get real here... No, the politics aren't right now but the US will have to face it's anti-human side at some point in time in the future... This isn't just about the "bad guys"... It's about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.... Death = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...

I wholeheartedly disagree with yer opinions on guns and the role they play in devaluing life... I also disagree with your opinion that suicide is not violent... Those are, IMO, anti-human opinions...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:11 PM

I feel that there ought to be a right to commit suicide.

I also feel that Bobert's analysis above about where the gun violence is coming from is right.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:17 PM

Bobert!!! Unforgiven! Now in how many ways are we killing ourselves? I mean other than guns, bridges and nooses? Let's see, well, the easy ones are smoking, excess drinking, how about sex with partners with potential STDs that are fatal? Too much mayonaise in the diet? Speeding or unsafe lane changes? High school sports with statistically proven fatallity rates? Walking unsafe streets? Drug abuse? making book with ISF? etc. So many of us are killing ourselves slowly so that makes a difference? Do you know the human body's capacity for unrelenting pain of say certain cancers which are going to inevitable end in death? I have nothing but empathy for these folks and total forgiveness. I know that my God is at least as loving and forgiving than I am. In fact much more, infinitely more loving and forgiving than I! I can't judge the actions of folks, the lives of whom I do not know and pains I cannot know. Self murder? or self inflicted death with repentance aforethought? This life IS a living death. The fortunate among us do not have to realize that until the very end but it is a truth that is in play from the very moment of our comceptions. All will die with varying amounts of pleasure and pain dispropartionately scattered throughout the time we walk this planet. Please rethink your statement.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:38 PM

Mouseklepto, I sure get tired of responding to people who read only half of what is posted or in regards to phantom statements which I did not make. Had you continued to read you would have noted that I said, in effect, that your rights end where mine begins. You do not have the right to violate the free exercise of my rights and vice versa, that peers could judge the matter and inflict penalty and remedies. Gee! No wonder there is so much arguement.

Bobert, some people are like nitro-glycerine. How they get that way can be a story of many pages but they get that way and then they are like a force of nature, like a lightening strike. The big and sad difference is that the explosion is usually directed at someone or something which they preceive as the cause of their mental anguish. Obviously this mental state can be induced in others and used for political purposes as in the case of suicide bombers. In some it is self-induced and in others it perhaps is a force of nature. The means they use might be a Glock 19 or a truckload of fertilizer, a sword a knife or Kung-fu. It is the mental garbage that is at fault, not the insturmentallity.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 06:17 PM

Yeah, Slag... That is some messed up reasoning on yer part... Sounds like it came right out of a NRA propaganda brochure entitled "101 ways to tell the sane people to shut the *** up"...

I mean, if you can't see the difference between a guy diein' from a heart attack because he is slammed working 50 hours a week, doesn't have time to exercise, yeah, eats the wrong foods and a guy who comes from home from work, walks in the bathroom, sticks a pistol in his mouth and blows the back of his head out to be discovered by his kids then I feel sorry for you... That is the most pathetic rebuttal I think I've read here at Mudcat in a long, long time... Maybe the most!!!

Please don't ever tell me about your Faith again... MY God don't think like you...

BTW, my Faith says confess yer sins and sin no more... Ain't no loopholes where you get to like "buy" forgiveness prior to the sin... Show me anywhere in the Bible that says that God allows us to pre-pay for forgiveness of sin... You can't, because it ain't in there... I'm not saying that you might not still get into Heaven, I am saying that that sin is the only sin for which you cannot be forgiven...

And worse yet... Suicide is not only violent and sinful but it is downright hateful for the family and friends... Good Christians don't stick pistols in their mouths and pull the trigger...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:31 PM

Most if not all suicides are caused by one and only 1 factor. Severe depression caused by mental illness I think. They will take pills, use a gun, jump off a bridge but in short it is a very sad mental illness and the thinking is that no one cares, and usually no one recognizing it before it gets to that point.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:40 PM

Mouseklepto, I sure get tired of responding to people who read only half of what is posted or in regards to phantom statements which I did not make. Had you continued to read you would have noted that I said, in effect, that your rights end where mine begins. You do not have the right to violate the free exercise of my rights and vice versa, that peers could judge the matter and inflict penalty and remedies. Gee! No wonder there is so much arguement.

Ah, I didn't expect you to contradict yourself. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:28 PM

Yeah, suicide does come from depression... The fact is that with 300,000,000 guns in the US there seems to be one within reach when people suffer from the lows of depression... Throw in the fact that we aren't spending any money on mental health and the abundance of readily available and loaded guns everywhere you look it's no wonder that we are seeing 14,000 suicides a year...

I mean, let's get real here... This shooting in Arizona ain't the first of these and won't be the last.... Just today a couple of kids in school in LA got shot... I mean, WTF??? We have a series of major disconnects with sane policies in this country... Too many guns and too many people with serious mental problems on the street... Throw in the "2nd amenders" and we are in the perfect storm for more and more Tucsons... Used to be that we'd get a postal worker once a year... Now they are comin' in droves...

Do you realize that I can be the most insane person you know, drive to Richmond and buy an AK-47 (with the book on how to make it an automatic weapon) and walk, yes fuckin' walk, to the Virginia General Assembly with it in plain sight and sit in the gallery of the House of Delegates with a fully loaded AK-47 watching the proceedings and I have broken not one law???

That, my friends, is insane policy!!! Check it out!!! Yeah, the Virginia General Assembly is going to take up a repeal of the law they passed allowing people to come to government building packing heat but the NRA values $$$$$$$$$$$$ over life so until some somabich opens fire and kills about 45 General Assembly members in some fit of madness then the NRA is gonna get what it wants... What next??? AK-47s in the US Capitol in the hands of the spectators in the gallery???

I mean, this is insanity... 300 million fucking guns for 318 million people, half of them kids or in nursing homes, and we wonder why the US is the murder capitol of the so-called developed-nations world???

Beam me up, Scotty... There is no sanity left here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 10:04 PM

No, better yet...

AK-47s in baby's cribs...

Well, someone might break into the house while dad is at work and shoot mommy and then baby become the last line of defense...

Seed how insane this all is???

Can anyone defend arming insane people and letting them into government buildings???

I mean, lets get real here!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:20 AM

Well like we said, there needs to be some serious revision in some of the states (especially yours bobster) lets get rid of the gun show loophole. I think every responsible gun owner knows that you cannot let anyone and everyone carry anything without knowing they are stable and not criminals .. and certain types of weapons, I don't think anyone wants to defend that either. Crap, I don't want your crazy shoot at the house neighbor with a fully auto weapon either .. We just need to get to the root of the issue, that is mental health and how we as a nation are going to address it or not address it. Money is a huge factor I agree, I just don't know if we can afford to not do something anymore ... don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 12:54 PM

I agree, Ol'ster... As I have poined out, I was a social worker in "adult services" when deinstitutionalization hit and it was a nightmare then and it is a nightmare now... There just aren't the services out there for the number of folks who need them... This comes down to money and as long as we have the right owning the media then count this issue just one of many on their list of things that we are not going to talk about...

This is 100% about media ownership because, unlike the 60s and 70s when we had lots of documentaries about serious issues, the tables have turned and Boss "Rupert" Hogg has gobbled it all up and in doing so has squashed real debate... All we hear is Boss Hog's side...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 01:56 PM

" We just need to get to the root of the issue, that is mental health ..."

I think I posted way back up there ↑ that mental illness and just plain dangerous people have been with us since the beginning of time.....maybe it is excess testosterone plus an unhappy childhood- who knows?
We will always have some form of disturbed and potentially dangerous people around, and there is only a limited amount we can do about them. Sure... we should try, and we should do our best to identify and help/control them, but it would be FAR easier to control/limit their access to guns...both number & type---and to ammo.
I do NOT see why laws and procedures cannot be designed to allow only certain types of guns to the 'general populace' and SEVERELY limit by screening who can legally possess other types and who can 'carry'.

   There are, simply, a lot of folks who 'just like having guns' and buy into fake logic about 'self-defense'. I heard a statistic the other day that 1/3 of deaths in 'home invasion' incidents were due to guns that were found IN the home by intruders and stolen or taken away BY the intruders! I can't easily imagine a routine where I'd feel 'safer' in my house with guns secreted about.... you just can't keep one in your hand or strapped on at all times!

There is just no way to "legislate human nature"... idiots and jerks and just plain incompetents ...(including children)... are out there in growing numbers, and in many other ways we have laws to protect us from them...highway laws, caps on pill bottles, seat belts, helmets for cyclists, restrictions on who can buy explosives, prescription-only drugs, registration of sex offenders, ankle devices to monitor parolees, ....and whole list of others. These can be nuisances, but they DO something. But closing the loopholes in gun laws are fought so hard by the NRA that some congressmen are terrified of crossing the NRA.

We can agree that there are SO many guns already out there that any simplistic 'banning' is close to impossible....but little to NO regulations? Pooh!

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 03:19 PM

Bobert: "Beam me up, Scotty... There is no sanity left here..."


GfS has left the room!

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 03:34 PM

By former Rep. Alan Grayson:
******************************************************************
When I opened my web browser yesterday, at yahoo.com, there was Sarah Palin, smiling at me.

"Oh, God," I said to myself, "what has she done now?"

The headline was "Palin Defends 'Blood Libel'". That's interesting, I thought. What else might Palin be defending? Cannibalism, maybe?

Well, it turned out to be a report on Palin's disjointed remarks on Sean Hannity's show, regarding the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords. I then watched the report. Let me summarize it for you:

Palin: I am so misunderstood.
Hannity: I am so misunderstood.
Palin: I am so misunderstood.

But there was one person who seemed to understand Sarah Palin quite well. Gabby Giffords, herself, during the health care debate. Discussing threats against Democratic Members of Congress. After the door to her office was shattered. This is what Gabby said:

"You know, for example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is the way that she has depicted it is the crosshairs of a gun-sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize that there are consequences to that action."

And here is Palin's blithe response, on Hannity's show: "That map wasn't an original graphic."

What is that remark supposed to be, Sarah? An exculpanation?

Even before I heard earlier Palin's whining about "misguided finger-pointing" and "irresponsible statements from people who are apportioning blame," I thought about this:

Palin came to my district, and told her people to "take me out."

Palin told people again and again, "don't retreat, reload."

The day before the health care vote, one of my five-year-old twins received a telephone death threat intended for me.

A right-wing commentator offered anyone $100 to punch me in the nose.

We received so many threats of violence from teabaggers that we started a file.

And the day before Gabby was shot, I received a postcard saying "you better get some personal protection. You could very well be getting your ass kicked soon."

Cause and effect. As Gabby put it, "there are consequences."

Of course, I wasn't the only target of these threats.

Gabby's tea party opponent held fundraisers in which he invited contributors to fire an automatic weapon.

Democrat Debbie Wasserman-Schultz's opponent conducted target practice on her initials.

Democrat Ron Klein's opponent told his supporters to make sure that Klein was "afraid to leave his house."

Democrat Frank Kratovil was hung in effigy.

Democrat Tom Perriello was burned in effigy. And the gas line to his brother's house was cut.

Democrat Emanuel Cleaver – a minister – was spat on.

Democrat Russ Carnahan had a coffin left at his home.

I could go on, but you get the point. Cause and effect. "There are consequences."

And the Republicans? The shot supposedly fired at Republican Eric Cantor's office was quickly exposed as a hoax.

As I observed on MSNBC last week, there has been a stream of violence and threats of violence by the right wing against Democrats. Gabby warned against it, and then became a terrible victim of it. Palin has instigated it, and then tried to pretend that it doesn't exist.

What do I think? I think that Gabby said it best: "We can't stand for this." We have to stand against it.

Courage,

Alan Grayson
******************************************************************

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 04:06 PM

Tia, do you have a link for that? I'd like to use it elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 04:18 PM

Just so.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: TIA
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:07 PM

Here's the link:

http://www.examiner.com/alan-grayson-in-national/alan-grayson-palin-has-instigated-violence-against-democrats

Alan Grayson

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: TIA
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:07 PM

And another one well worth checking out:

http://www.truth-out.org/files/images/cartoon011911.jpg

Tom Tomorrow

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 07:42 PM

Not, of course, that we should do anything so outre as discuss, Congresswoman Giffords, but it is worth noting that she is about to be moved into rehabilitation where they will begin the process of retraining the motor skills damaged by her injury.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 07:44 PM

Hooray!!!

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:19 PM

Now this is interesting.   Not completely relevant, perhaps, but certainly related.

Student came to a school in the LA school district with a gun in his backpack--appears to have happened yesterday. Gun accidentally went off.   Fractured girl's skull, grazed boy in the neck.   She is in critical condition; he is in fair condition.

What was the gun?    Surprise, surprise, a Glock semi-automatic.

Source:   Wall St Journal, 19 Jan 2011.



So let's have our stalwart defenders of the 2nd Amendment tell us just why anybody outside the military and the police should have these weapons.

It seems reasonable that hunters should be able to slaughter all the game they want without semi-automatic pistols.

The human carnage caused by people using them is out of hand.   Even hunters should be able to see this.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 12:19 AM

Hey, When one 'theory' after another one falls down. which THEY ALL have, (talk radio, Palin, Rush, Hannity, Obama Care, guns,...everything but the guy was a loony, acting out)you might try, the one size fits all reason for the shooting.....'Global Warming'!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:01 AM

The ghost of Spiro Agnew has just spoken thru GfinS....

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: TIA
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 11:31 AM

Nope, the one-size-fits-all theory would be that this could have been prevented by *Tax Cuts*

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 11:55 AM

...and I'm sure **Jesus** would agree that *Tax Cuts* would stop Global Warming...and no doubt Spiro Agnew would agree.


I am so pleased to hear of Giffords' continued progress and her husband's unceasing support. This guy will 'probably' be giving up one of last two space shuttle flights in order to stay with her.
If she is able...after a time... to resume her place in Congress, I'm sure there will be rejoicing of many sorts....

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:29 PM

Pease correct me if I'm wrong, but a read somewhere that Mrs Giffords was "anti gun control"

If that was the case, could it not be argued that she herself contributed to the tragedy?

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:51 PM

One record, Ake, you are correct... But keep in mind that we have gun control already... So it comes down to lots of ins and outs and if yer gonna be able to get elected you purdy much have to not push too hard on the NRA least they will throw enough money at yer opponent and you'll be unemployed...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:20 PM

Thanks Bob!

Seems that American politics is just as corrupt as UK politics

Is power the only thing which motivates politicians these days....Is there no one with conviction in the centre?

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:33 PM

"Pease correct me if I'm wrong, but a read somewhere that Mrs Giffords was "anti gun control"

If that was the case, could it not be argued that she herself contributed to the tragedy? "


Actually - No. And to claim she was would be just silly.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:40 PM

Ake
you should never say that, screw the guns, there are hammers all over the place also but I don't say they are the reason someone caves in the skull of another person. We cannot lose focus and think that taking away every weapon in the world is gonna make something like this not happen, that is completely wrong thinking. Anyone wants to talk to me about sane gun restrictions vs insane loose gun laws I am most everyone else will say for sure we need to limit, restrict and have tight controls on carry. But remember one thing, a sick person or a criminal will use whatever they want to kill. You don't need a gun folks. ya can cook up C-4 in your sink if you know how to do it. Lets stay focus and try to figure out how we can identify and prevent the next mental ill person from doing the same or worse. He could have just as easily ran his car though the crow also .. We need to fix the problem at its root

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:40 PM

As posted earlier, Congresswoman Giffords owned and was proficient with a Glock; but of course the weapon is not suitable when surrounded by a crowd.
I would guess that she would be for adequate restrictions on guns but would not favor eliminating them.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:20 PM

Dan...you have put forward this argument several times..

"But remember one thing, a sick person or a criminal will use whatever they want to kill. You don't need a gun folks. ya can cook up C-4 in your sink if you know how to do it. Lets stay focus and try to figure out how we can identify and prevent the next mental ill person from doing the same or worse. "

...but I have answered several times with a counter-argument, and I'm not sure you have given my position fair play. I don't 'think' you have directly replied to it.

When you assert that 'other things' can be used to kill, you are absolutely correct... but it avoids the point that most of those 'other things' design and function is to do things not connected to projecting a missile directly at something. Hammers & knives and baseball bats and rocks and cars and ropes and crowbars...etc... would be hard to 'restrict' or ban without making daily life quite difficult. Many countries do just fine every day with MUCH fewer weapons...in total and per capita.

....and making C-4 and similar explosives is NOT gonna be adopted by millions of amateurs, or used to rob 7-11s, or hidden under coats in gang wars.

Guns just make it all easier when someone decides, whether planned or on sudden impulse, to do harm to others.

In the Wash DC area where I live,there was a lot of gang violence and stupid shooting at nightclubs and drive-bys. One young kid was asked why he couldn't have settled his dispute by a good ol-fashioned fist-fight or something... he said: (paraphrased)"Man, that's hard...and takes too long! You got a gun, and somebody disses you, and you just catch 'em and off 'em! You don't mess around..."

With so many guns easily available, it has become just a standard way of settling arguments over girlfriends or perceived insults....sorta like stupid 'dueling' in the early colonies, but with no tedious formalities.

You KNOW that if I knew YOU were carrying near me, I wouldn't particularly worry, but YOU aren't the problem...except in so far as, in protecting YOUR privileges, you help make it easier for millions who CANNOT be trusted. If you were only defending very carefully restricted access, like Canada, the UK and many other nations, I would not type so much...but this repetition of the idea that "fixing the problem at its root" by finding and monitoring or curing all the nut cases is disingenuous.

Asserting that "guns aren't the problem..people kill people" is a worn out rhetorical device which ignores and distorts what actually happens.

*I* am not, as I said a dozen times, advocating ..."taking away every weapon in the world...", or even hunting rifles...or even YOUR guns or the guns of FULLY certified and trained and vetted people with a NEED to own them. But today there is a huge gap between sensible rules and the "wild West" where some are advocating that "if more people had guns, we'd all be safer!" THAT is self-deception and has been proven wrong...

Please... defend what NEEDS defending, but don't fall into the easy slogans that the NRA loves to hear!

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

bill we are in agreement, no disagreement here about some of the very loose state gun laws ... when I read someone posting she is part responsible for the tragedy because she owns a weapon I shake my head and say that is really sick thinking ...

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:29 PM

I will disagree with you whole heartily in regard to mental illness. it is your contention then that we do nothing to identify these types of people ... again I will say root cause, you guys will say hell it is all about guns ... and the killing will continue .. I don't buy into this crap that there is no money, well ya but we better find some because more and more people are seriously disturbed ... so we better do something cause that is the real cause ... the gun is the tool, yup get a national standard, we all agree .. but you want to know what caused this tragedy, it wasn't his glock, it was his illness that everyone who saw it coming did NOTHING about it .. and then it happened

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:29 PM

Bill is entirely correct... Guns make things much easier... And having them around does not make anyone more safe... Studies have shown that households with handguns are more apt to have one or member of the household shot with a handgun... There is also no truth to the mythology that the NRA pumps out that handguns save lives... If you take the police out of the equation then the stats go way the other way...

300,000,000 handguns and upwards of 30,000 dieing from gunshots in the US every year...

Back to the hammer as a weapon... If Bubba comes at me with one I have a good chance of surviving, maybe uninjured... If Bubba has a gun my odds go way down... Like to zero...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:36 PM

hell yes they make it easier, hell yes we need to fix states like you live in .. 100% agree, but the killing will continue, I make the same argument with DUI, lady 30 miles away wiped out an entire family ... 4 DUI convictions, this time she killed a whole family .. she should have been in jail after the first one ... That is my point ... sure fix the loose gun laws .. we all agree but we better do something about disturb people cause every night ya hear the neighbors afterwords saying "I KNEW something was wrong with him" God Almighty how many more need to die .. Columbine ... same thing .. after the fact everyone says how disturbed the kids were that killed all their classmates .. Yes guns make it a hell of a lot easier ... so did their pipe bomb, knives and every other thing they had on them. We need to fix this mental issues and start putting some money someplace