BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...

Subject: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 09:52 AM

If I have the story correct a number of rabbis have taken out a full page ad in Rupert Murdock's Wall Street Journal today asking that FOX unNews tell Glen Beck to quit throwing around the term "Nazi" as an adjective for anyone who disagrees with him...

I have not seen the ad but my felling is that it's long overdue... His casual usage of the term Nazi as well as Holocaust in such a manner is terribly disrespectful to the 8 million Jews who were killed as well as to those who found themselves trapped on the wrong side of history...

Maybe someone will be able to find the ad and make a blue clicky to it???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 10:12 AM

Article here: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/rabbis-protest-glenn-beck-holocaust/

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Maryrrf
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 10:32 AM

I sure wish somebody would bust him. He spouts a toxic stew of lies, half truths, rants and raves, mean spirited diatribes and incendiary rhetoric. I wish he'd push the envelope too far (he already has, in my opinion) and be yanked off the air.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 10:41 AM

Beck consistently throws around all sorts of terms he obviously doesn't understand or know the meaning of. Of course, he's an ignorant school dropout, so what would one expect?

As for yanking him off the air it wouldn't make any difference; the Republican River Of Bullshit would quickly and easily find another gobshite to take his place.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: josepp
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 10:51 AM

Beck and that Cramer guy both irk me. They talk about gold and currency like they're some kind of supernatural geniuses. I want to meet one person outside their sponsors and backers who have made it rich off either of these two idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 10:54 AM

Fox will do nothing to Glenn Beck. His ratings are too high and he makes too much money for the network. Why would they try to tamper with his success?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Maryrrf
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 11:11 AM

Unfortunately, Greg and Wesley, you're right.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 11:19 AM

First off, I think that being sensitive to words makes one vulnerable, and announcing it is worse. Especially if those wielding such words look like the all-grown-up version of your neighborhood bully, and that's how I've always thought of Beck. The taunting big mouth, all swagger and little substance.

He likely earns lots of money for Fox because of the spectacle. Sure, some people are dim enough, or wannabe bullies themselves, but I'd guess a significant number of those who watch him just wonder what stupid stuff is gonna come out of his mouth next. He's more of a joke, like a cable network version of a local access whacko, but viewers is viewers, and no one expects truth from Fox.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 11:34 AM

The same people listen to Beck as read "National Enquirer" or "The Weekly World News".

"Against stupidity the very gods Themselves contend in vain."
- Friedrich von Schiller

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 12:12 PM

Whether some group of Rabbis want Beck to be 86ed is of no consequence to me. I'm sure there is another group of Rabbis out there that find Beck fine and dandy.

Clergy are like the Supreme Court. Their pronouncements are their specific opinions based on their own world view. And these pronouncements change as the personnel change.

Long ago, I decided that no religion, no political party, no group, nor any pundit speaks for me. I reserve the right to agree or disagree, accept or reject their ideas.

I say let Glenn Beck speak. You don't like his ideas or his interpretation from the facts...challenge them with better ideas. That goes for any speaker from Ann Coulter to the recently fired Keith Olbermann, from Sarah Palin to Rep. Steven Cohen.

Someone once said (or should have), "The antidote to free speech is more free speech." Amen!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 01:07 PM

He's more of a joke,

He's no bloody joke- he's a dangerous asshole.

Those that actually believe what he says, however, are considerably MORE dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: saulgoldie
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 01:25 PM

Actually, while his ratings may be high, he has cost Fox MANY sponsors. He is being subsidized by Murdock.

As for letting words offend you, perhaps if you asked a Holocaust survivor how they feel about it you might find it enlightening. Course, they are likely not his audience.

Free speech? The airwaves and cable broadcast bandwidth are naturally finite, and not every voice has "fair" access. Should have, but in reality, don't.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 01:29 PM

"I say let Glenn Beck speak."

Commendable basic attitude, but when someone can be proven to be disseminating false information and distorting issues, his 'right' to do so over public airwaves needs to be discussed.

Beck may 'have' any stupid opinion he wishes...just like you & I... but when he simply states demonstrable falsities with no oversight, he is playing fast & loose with the manipulation of public opinion.

...and no, it is NOT the same with 'both sides'. Various conservative factions and individuals are simply lying about basic information and claiming it is just 'opinion, protected by free speech'. This goes FAR beyond plain 'spin', which even liberals will resort to.

The sort of loaded rhetoric employed by Beck, Limbaugh, Bachmann, (and several members of congress) have no place in decent discourse....and they get away with it because it takes 10 times as much effort to counter and disprove false assertions than it does to keep them flowing.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: saulgoldie
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 01:51 PM

From Mark Twain: "A lie will go around the world before the truth has its boots on."

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 02:21 PM

Well, ya know, might be different if the FCC hadn't rescinded the "Fairness Docterine" at the behest of the right-wingers.

Them chickens has come home to roost....

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 03:44 PM

Until such time as he is shot, he will continue to spew hatred and bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 03:45 PM

Nice post, 999...you do yourself proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 03:49 PM

Not half as proud as Beck does himself, John.

Or do you maintain that Beck does not trade almost exclusively in hatred and bullshit that can- and has- been proven to be bullshit?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 04:04 PM

Well, John, I have come to agree with the right-wing. They advocate violence. The Becks, Robertsons, Coulters and Palins are all in favour of it. Who am I to disagree?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 04:22 PM

Oh goody! Let's do everything we hate that other people do, and there won't be any difference between us and them.

I think he'll keep going so long as he's alive AND has a forum. We can't shoot everybody we don't like. Sometimes, we miss. Loughner managed to kill a bunch of people, but Giffords is still alive, so that doesn't leave assassination looking like an effective solution. As for the "forum" bit, there is always going to be a significant number of stupid people in the world. Can't shoot all of them, either. We can keep on trying to promote truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: saulgoldie
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 04:23 PM

Heeey, no "shooting" here! THEY do ENOUGH of that kind of talk. Remember that "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless." If "we" are going to call them out, we have to be ULTRApure.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 04:25 PM

but Giffords is still alive, so that doesn't leave assassination looking like an effective solution.

Only because Loghner was incompetent. I'm sure the TeaBagger-Beck Axis has someone more skilled in the wings waiting for an opportunity.

Stay tuned....

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 04:25 PM

Tell that to the Third Reich. Pol Pot. Idi Amin.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 04:47 PM

You CAN'T shoot 'em, even if it made sense...which it doesn't. That attitude they espouse is only fueled by violence against 'em, and gives 'em an excuse to retaliate...YOU know that, Bruce. And you KNOW which side has more guns squirreled away, just waiting for a chance to 'save the world from Fascism'.

   We can prove them wrong and we can VOTE them out...and we can educate, so stupidity will have less breeding grounds. If we fail totally at all that, I'm not sure the world will be worth living in anyway....

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 04:50 PM

I don't have the details and maybe someone else remembers the story or has a link to it but seems to me that about a year ago a number of Beckites got into a shooting incident with police on the way tyo0 shoot some leftie for somethin'...

Maybe someone remembers that incident and can find a link...

That's the kinda of thing that a sane society would take a look at real closely and go, "We really don't need these people to being using our publicly owned airwaves to incite violence...

Anyone have the details on that incident???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 05:45 PM

There have been a number of such incidents Bobert - California, Pittsburgh, etc.

Read up on them here:
http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/149129/how_glenn_beck's_twisted_worldview_goads_disturbed_people_into_acts_of_violence

in a piece written well *before* the Giffords attack.

Kinda prescient, yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 05:53 PM

clicky...

Beck's Violent Rhetoric

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 05:54 PM

Beck himself is a "disturbed individual" - not to say a psychotic one.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM

They were talking about Beck being treated for mental illness way back when he was on CNN's "Headline News".. I heard HIM admit it. I had wondered about him even then, and was glad when he disappeared....then amazed when he turned up on Fox in an even more prominent place.

I really cannot tell what his basic driving forces are, but they are a funny mix of 'patriotism', self-aggrandizement, messianic Christianity and greed..ummm... consumerism, shown by his overt pushing of his interest in buying/selling gold during his rants. Whatever...he is a real case, and someone up top at Fox oughta pull him up short.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

Thanks, TIA...

I would think that maybe John on the Sunset Coast would benefit from reading this link... I mean, when innocent people are being killed by people who believe the lies that Beck spins then, yeah, it is time to at the very least sit the boy down and tell him to chill...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 06:57 PM

Well, I don't much listen to Beck, so I can't speak to what he says on his shows as to its true truth or falsity. I do know what people say he says, but I don't know if those reports are true or false. In either case, I don't believe he should be shut down or shot down.

Beck is on a station that I listen to for other shows. Several times I have heard his promo calling for his listeners to be proactive in political activity. He specifically, in this promo, notes that his listeners should in NO way be engaging in violence--that's a lot better message than some I read on the this thread. He also suggests that they pray about their actions (ooooh scary, scary, scary!).

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 08:00 PM

Then he goes and tells people to be sure to shoot people in the head, John... And guess what??? Some of his followers take that to heart and go out and kill people...

That's the point here... You say you don't listen to him but then again you see no reason why he be told to chill out... If it was you or one of your family members who were killed for no other reason than some nut told them to kill them, you might see things a little different...

Seems going back a long ways,. like 1963, the right has used violence against the left... We on the left have had enough of or brothers and sisters killed by ya'll and to sit back and say, "Hey, he's go every right to say what he wants" is to be an accomplice when perfectly innocent people are targeted fro their political beliefs...

Yeah, think how you'd feel if someone killed one of your family members because someone in the media told 'um it was not only okay but the thing to do...

That is the issue here... This is beyond 1st amendment stuff... Listen to the guy and come back and tell US how it's okay for this guy to be on a "News" station???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 08:12 PM

Bobert, how would you feel having your speech rights taken away, or your gun rights, or your right to peacefully assemble, or any of your Constitutional rights. Don't give me this crap about how would you feel if...It's bull shit and you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 08:15 PM

And by the way, just which of Glenn Beck's listeners have killed anybody...with proof, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 08:39 PM

John...you KNOW that if there were positive proof that would hold up in court, he and others would be in jail now. VARIOUS killings have been linked to various right-wing 'encouragement' to "Take out these liberals/abortionists" etc. When they 'hint' to folks who are already primed to hate, it is just a matter of connecting the dots. ADDRESSES of 'targets' have been posted and Beck, Limbaugh and others have made semi-veiled remarks allowing as how it sure would be nice if those nasty opponents of God's laws were 'dealt with'. Politicians have dropped out of races **because they received anonymous death threats!**
   You don't think they're quite so dumb as to SAY: "Somebody go kill that liberal commie", do you?...although I have seen clips of them coming pretty close!

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 08:59 PM

Check out www.liberalslikechrist, John... You absolutely don't get the fact that we have a war being waged by one side: the right.... And they kill, and they kill, and they kill...

I mean, if it were a football game the score would be like 2000 to 3... The right not only kills here but everywhere... Hitler was a rightie... PolPot was rightie... Everywhere we look, the US very much included we have righties killing liberals... 1979 Greemsboro, NC... KKK shoots down 5 non-violent marchers and no arrests... King, Kennedy, Kennedy... Abortion doctors.... Nurses... Family planning counselors and guess what, John??? To date I have never heard one rightie say, "Enough is enough".... Never!!!

Waht I hear is the same old shit: "Well, boys will be boys" 'er "Hey, they have a right to say whatever they want", 'er "Them niggers shouldn't have done this or that"...

This goes back to the end of the unCivil War in our country and hundreds, maybe thousand of folks have been gunned down, hanged, dragged down country roads from a rope on the back of a pickup truck, etc...

No, John... NO matter what your words are you are on the wrong side of humanity here...

Yes, "Enough is enough" and unless you are perfectly willing to see your side continue using assassination as just another political tool then you need to look inside yer heart and say...

..."Enough is enough"

Anything less then in my eyes you are an accomplice... And so is every rightie in this country...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 09:00 PM

We are not speaking of "VARIOUS(sic) killings have been linked to various right-wing 'encouragement'...", we are speaking specifically of Glenn Beck, not that I accept your quoted premise to start with as a common occurrence.

I read here, that Glenn Beck is a liar and an agitator stirring up folks to commit murderous acts. I have never heard him imply that people should be violent. I have heard him explicitly (not tangentially, not metaphorically, but explicitly) tell an audience that violence is not to be inferred or used. Listen to a station which he is on where they run that promo (in Los Angeles it's on AM 870 KRLA) if you doubt my post. Of course if you do that, you might get a dose of (alternate) reality.

I stand by what I wrote at 12:12, and post hoc and emotional arguments I've read here, only confirm my position.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 09:09 PM

"I have never heard him imply that people should be violent."

I have... I shall endeavor to find specific links/text/videos... I am not sure what has been archived.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 09:33 PM

check this

with video

YouTube of radio show (you have to watch it ALL to see the point)

heavy hints about poisoning Pelosi Kidding? Maybe... what does he have to DO?

more...yeah, there's more. You can do searches too...

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 09:35 PM

Calm down Bobert, I don't want to be an accomplice to your having a heart attack or stroke.

I listen primarily to three talk shows from conservatives, and two to liberal hosts, one by osmosis. No, I do not listen to every hour of each of these gentlemen, but I listen most every day to some.

Each of these hosts, right and left, never hint to anybody at any time to resort to any sort of violence. When violent acts occur, the shooting in Tucson, the shootings by the Moslim doctor at his military post, and the shootings of abortion doctors by fundamentalist Christians, as examples, all of them are quick to condemn the acts and the perpetrators, and to point out the evilness of the killings. The major difference is this: the conservative hosts don't rush to judgment to blame outside influences for the individual's action; the liberals are nearly always--and generally erroneously--quick to assign blame even before the blood has dried on the ground. Sounds pretty much to me like some things I read here.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 09:38 PM

Now, I maintain that Beck is just ONE who strews hints in his programs, and that it IS relevant to refer to others, but you CAN spend all evening just reading & listening to BECK weaving ideas for his sheep that tell them something needs to be done.

You demand precise, direct proof that he said "Go kill someone"? No, he only skirts it....believe what you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 10:16 PM

"... but you CAN spend all evening just reading & listening to BECK weaving ideas for his sheep that tell them something needs to be done."

Nice literary allusion there. Maybe I can send away for the code book to unveil actions I'm supposed to take which he isn't directly telling me what to do, as I guess I missed that part of of the conservative manifesto

When caught, I can use the Geraldine (Flip Wilson) plea, "The Glenn Beck made me do it, whoo-whee." whilst I smile large, roll my eyes and undulate sexily.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 10:54 PM

Hey John, did you watch the videos?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 11:08 PM

Of course he didn't, mouse...

After all, John is way to busy being John on the Sunset Coast and...

...losin' credibility with every post...

I mean, history is littered with dead leftist because some asshole rightie told his follower's that it is was perfectly okay (if not or ordered) to shoot those ______________ (fill in yer own anti-reactionary movement/party)s... I.e progressives, liberals...

I mean, lets get real here...

Ain't no hiding... You are either pro-human on anti-human...

Ain't no fenced here to walk...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 11:40 PM

Well, yeah, Mouse and Bobert, I did watch a couple of those videos. I don't agree with most of what Beck in the Canadian segment, as I don't agree with most of the argumentation, here. At least the gentleman from TYT had the skills to calmly and logically refute Beck. While I didn't watch all 13+ minutes, I did not hear bumper sticker attacks on Beck, and I didn't hear a bunch of emotional non sequiturs.

The other one was a montage of 5 - 10 second snippits edited for maximum impact purporting to be a news report. It was simply a polemic, not much better than some of the arguments here. That one gets two thumbs down...well maybe one thumb up for editing. Nice, if dishonest, try though.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:06 AM

John is one of the best people I`ve met through Mudcat, even though we`ve never met in person. He is reasoned in his thinking and smart in his considerations. The fact we don`t always agree is just the way things are in life. His views are conservative, but hey, ya know.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:21 AM

Commendable basic attitude ["I say let Glenn Beck speak"], but when someone can be proven to be disseminating false information and distorting issues, his 'right' to do so over public airwaves needs to be discussed.

Goebbels, Lenin, and most other totalitarian despots and their supporters have made almost identical arguments.

Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas.
- Joseph Stalin

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:41 AM

Sorry, Tac- more overwrought bullshit.


Click Here

or Here

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:58 AM

I doubt seriously if Stalin or Goebbels had any interest in anyone hearing any other stories but theirs...

This is what we have "right" here in the US... Other that 3 hours of the truth aired on a cable station, the rest of the media is corporate owned and firmly camped out on the right side of the divide...

(But what about the "liberal" media, Boberdz???)

Haha... It only exists in the minds of the Epsilons... Boss Hog knows the real deal 'cause he uses his big stick (corporate media) to propagate mythology...

That is reality and...

...misinformation is his tool to control the masses and to continue the fleecing of the labor class... And he uses the lest intelligent of the Epsilons as his enforcers...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:18 AM

999... I'm sure John IS a nice guy. We have several pretty conservative posters who I'm sure I could have lunch with and debate in a friendly manner. I also know that some of them simply cannot entertain the notion that certain famous conservative pundits play fast & loose with the facts and use imagery and language which pushes the limits of fair, decent and sane selling of their 'sides' points.
   The Republican party today in not the one *I* grew up knowing, with Nelson Rockefeller in office and William F. Buckley making their arguments. We have really off-the-wall politicians today, with REALLY off-the-wall pundits supporting them. This new idea of "don't worry about offering real ideas..just get power back by opposing everything Democrats try to do..." is making it hard to carry on any real debate.
    There is a coalition of rabid anti-abortion forces, mixed with slogan shouting 'anti-tax' zealots, mixed with stalwart, independent "I don't want ANYONE, especially in the govt., telling me what to do!" militia-oriented gun owners, mixed with and supported by business lobbyists just fighting anything that would cut into their profits, no matter what the interests of the country at large....and all these reinforcing each other thru Fox news and related outlets.

Not only that, for many years, there were many, many more conservative talk shows, both on radio & TV, simply because wild accusations and conspiracy theory rants are more 'interesting' and sell more soap than reasonable, sane talking points. It is a pretty recent thing to have any 'liberal' shows with any sort of format that both made sense and held viewers interest. (Remember the aborted attempt to make Al Franken's comedy show a 'liberal voice'? He just couldn't sustain both comedy and sense, and is now MUCH more effective as a Senator who 'occasionally' uses humor.)

So... the Glenn Beck situation is serious, for BOTH sides, because he IS getting lots of airtime to push very extreme attitudes and is, along with others, becoming the only voice of conservatism, hardening the base, but driving away many right-leaning independents and at the same time using valuable energy from the left to refute his polemics.

Beck, Coulter, Limbaugh, Hannity,...and several ULTRA-loony radio shows have changed the entire landscape of honest debate to one of careless and dangerous whipping up opposition to 'liberals' and those liberals trying to figger out how to respond without resorting to similar tactics.

   I shudder to think what thing would be like if we got a president and both houses of congress filled with folks who agreed with Beck & his cronies....the Supreme Court already has 4-5 who are serious threats, as the "Citizens United" decision shows.

Yes...I DO get carried away, don't I? At least I care & try.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:28 AM

What I hear (in general, present company excepted--I wouldn't stoop to personal attacks or be so rude as to accuse anyone here of preaching bullshit) is lots of violent, intolerant, hate-filled rhetoric from the left advocating suppression and/or violence against conservatives at the same time as accusing conservatives of advocating violence on national media--although they're unable to actually give any examples of conservatives advocating violence on national media. And then they give their solution which is that the conservatives on TV should be silenced or shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:40 AM

What people need to understand is the guy makes a living saying things that are over the top. There are dozens of them on TV talk radio ... they get paid to fire people all up. Is it right ... hell no ... what I do ... is I don't listen to any of them . I sure wish others would do the same, then, there would be no TV show or RAdio show

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:43 AM

specifics please, Taconius.

You can read above what *I* found (part of it) showing conservative incitement. I CAN show you lots more...in detail.
WHERE do you find "...violent, intolerant, hate-filled rhetoric from the left advocating suppression and/or violence against conservatives ..."?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:50 AM

The other thing about these people is the Rabbi also has the right to free speech and the right to complain loud and hard about something he feels is wrong. I am not going to censure anyone. Nor do I want anyone to try and censure me either. They can say anything they want with the understanding that networks and radio owners will pay the price via boycotts for shows that do such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:51 AM

You're right, old dude. In today's society many pundits and politicians (of all partisan stripes) make their careers by getting people all fired up. Actually it's nothing new; the words firebrand, rabble-rouser, demagogue, muckraker, agitator—they're not new words. After WWII we seemed to have learned the evils of scapegoating (blaming single crimes on the influence of groups we don't like) and it became less common… for a while. Now it's back, with a vengeance. Literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 12:15 PM

I've looked at what you posted above, Bill D., and they include lots of accusations of Glenn Beck advocating violence, and links to websites that accuse Glenn Beck of advocating violence, recordings of Beck railing against the policies of others, etc., but no actual, specific examples of actually advocating violence. But among Democrat politicians and leftist media personalities, advocation of violence is much easier to find:

During GWB's convention speech, Craig Kilborn, a CBS talk-show host, showed him on the screen with the words "SNIPERS WANTED."

There was even a movie made about an imagined assassination of President Bush. No one on the left who are screaming about "right wing rhetoric" today thought there was anything wrong with making that movie.

In 2004, Democrat Barry Seltzer was arrested for attempting to run down Rep. Katherine Harris (R-Fla.) with a car. He told police he was simply "exercising [his] political expression" when he drove his car at Harris and several supporters, swerving at the last minute.

In 2006, when Bill Maher joked with John Kerry that instead of taking his wife to Vermont for her birthday he could have taken her to New Hampshire (where the primary was) and "killed two birds with one stone." John Kerry joked back, "Or I could have gone to 1600 Pennsylvania and killed the real bird with one stone."

In 2006, New York comptroller, Alan Hevesi, the Democrat comptroller from New York, was telling graduating students at Queens College how much he and other Democrats despised GWB. He said that his fellow Democrat, Sen. Charles Schumer, would "put a bullet between the president's eyes if he could get away with it."

In 2008, "political comedian" Sandra Bernhard "joked" that if Sarah Palin ever visited New York she would be "gang-raped by my big black brothers."

Check out this lovely piece of leftist light-hearted anti-Palin "mother I'd love to punch" art.

Three months ago, in October 2010, Democrat Representative from Pennsylvania Paul Kanjorski, talking about Republican Rick Scott, said that "instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him."

"He is an enemy of the country, in my opinion. Cheney is an enemy of the country....Lord, take him to the Promised Land, will you? See, I don't even wish the guy goes to Hell, I just want to get him the hell out of here." - Ed Schultz, MSNBC

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 12:56 PM

but no actual, specific examples of [Beck] actually advocating violence

Get your eyes & ears checked by qualified medical personnell, Tac.

None so blind as them as refuse to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 01:04 PM

Ol'ster...

If I saw someone poison a barrel of water that the local Boy Scouts were getting ready to take on a camping trip that I was supposed to be watching and was asked by the Scout Master if everything was fine and said "Yup, everything fine" then, if we use your logic, then everything would be just hunky doorey in yer book... I mean, some folks have very bad intentions and they use their mouths to propagate misinformation that is harmful...

But, I guess if we are going to use your and Taco's logic then I can purdy much say whatever I want, whenever I want, regardless of everyone's safety or the validity of the factual information in what I say???

Hmmmmmmmm??? Think you need to rethink that position...

Bill D is absolutely correct and guess what??? Contrary to Taco's suggestion Bill made his points without lieing, without threatening anyone and with a high level of civility...

It's just righties hate being wrong and when they are called on it rather than examine their wrongness they attack the one who pointed out their wrongness???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 01:26 PM

Greg, Bobert, now you're resorting to sarcastic ad hominem put-downs of those who disagree with you instead of addressing the issues themselves. I've tried "discussing" issues before with posters who do that, and I'm not interested in taking part.

You hate Glenn Beck. Right, we got it.

Bye bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 01:41 PM

999... "Until such time as he is shot, he will continue to spew hatred and bullshit."

Judging by subsequent posts, I must be missing something. That post does not call for shooting anyone.

In any case, I didn't read much further and I don't care to do so. Have fun with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 02:07 PM

Hey, ya know how it is. Folks think what they want. As a person, I did march in anti-war marches, open housing marches and others. I took a few beatings in the name of pacifism.

I was on the street when the riots took place at Sir George Williams University in Montreal. I was being peaceful, and cop raised a night stick to me. I gave him a strike in the plexus with a rolled up newspaper. Guess what: he didn`t hit me. I don`t think gratuitous violence is in anyone`s best interest. However, the minute someone raises his hand to me, my response is not violence--it`s self-defense.

When trash like Beck, Robertson, Palin, Coulter (and others) speak as they do, they are not worthy of arguing against. Their currency is violence. Pay them in kind.

I have heard the adage that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves everyone blind and toothless. It`s crap when people say that because they seldom mean their eye or tooth should be the first to go.
Philosophy is easy. Facts are hard. Sorry, but if I gotta go, I`ll do so taking some sonuvabitch with me. And, I don`t really care who agrees or disagrees with me. They can go be pacifistic with rabid animals. Not this old boy.

Best regards to you, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: josepp
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 02:07 PM

Beck is the madman depicted in that movie "Network" where the anchor man who learns he is going to be fired, goes on the air for his last broadcast claiming he was going to commit suicide on the air and instead starts ranting and cursing and suddenly the ratings shoot sky high. The network that was all set to can him now don't dare remove him.

Everyday he comes to the studio--more dirty, ragged, decrepit and crazy than the last time and rants and raves against this, that and the other. The audience loves it and keeps tuning in--many of them doing whatever crazy thing he tells them to do and then calling into the station asking what he wants them to do next.

The protagonist fights with the network execs that this man is sick and clearly needs to be hospitalized but the execs won't even consider it. He's knocking out the competition in that time slot.

The grim humor being that when the newsman was sane, rational and delivering the news in a professionl manner, people stopped watching him so that the network decides to can him but now that he's a raving lunatic with nothing sane to say anymore, the viewers just can't get enough of him. Lunacy sells and it sells big.

What's funny is that this movie came out long before RW nutjobs came on the air and took over the ratings spewing lunacy and conspiracy crap. Yet the movie perfectly predicted that this was where television was headed and demonstrated how and why it was inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 02:16 PM

I recently read a facet of vitriolic speech that hadn't occurred to me before. Oh, of course, I knew that presidents have speechwriters but...

Russell Baker, in an H.L. Mencken book review, wrote:

"In today's jargon, Mencken, eloquently proclaiming views certain to offends so many, would be called a 'polarizing' figure. Whereas, today's polarizers, however, are professional well-poisoners who spend vast sums for opinion polls to determine how best to inflame the masses for poliical advantage. Mencken did the trick by simply writing what was on his mind."

These inflamers and inciters may not even be telling us what they themselves think and believe, they may simply be pushing calculated buttons by spouting rhetoric that they know will arouse the passions of angry, fearful people.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 02:19 PM

I don't hate Beck, Taco- but I DO hate the ignorant fools that believe him and the jackasses who defend him.

Beck by himself can't do shit- its his acolytes. Like yourself, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:05 PM

Bobster
Naw I am just saying a turd is a turd, they put these guys on and pay them so much money to fire off their poison, that is what they get paid to do. The best thing to do is turn the channel and complain formally like the Rabbi is doing to those that employ them and the advertisers on the show. I tell ya what, if enough people bitch at the advertisers on these shows, they won't be there cause it is all about the ad dollars that keep them going. They do have the right to say crap. Others have the right to tell their advertisers that "I am not going to buy your product since you seem to support a guy like Beck or _____" whoever. Believe me it gets their attention

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:13 PM

Who would have thought however that saying over the top things and berating others one could earn so much money. Ever read how much they pay these guys. don't matter, I would never do it, drug dealers make a lot of money also but something is so very wrong with America that guys like these (I am talking all parties and a host of them) get paid to spread hate, half truths, and deception.   Sad I think. What the hell ever happened to reasonable debate. Well reasonable debate I guess has no entertainment value.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:26 PM

By the way sooner or later a nut ball is going to forget that these TV and radio shows are shock value entertainment, that is why they are there, and is going to do something because one of these guys called for it on their TV show. Then, the lawsuits afterwords and the criminal investigation afterwords will make the point better than our ramblings. Remember when Sally Jesse Raphael setup that gay guy and his straight friend and the guy got killed. She was sued and the show was gone. She also ended up in criminal court yada yada. Sadly it will probably take something like that. But as long as the advertisers get their big bucks from pitching their products on such a "hit" TV or radio show nothing will change and it will get worse. If people say hell no I won't buy your product, then you make a difference. Problem is, getting enough people to do that

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:53 PM

Folks ain`t gonna give up their TVs, Dan.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 04:13 PM

Old Dude wrote:
What the hell ever happened to reasonable debate. Well reasonable debate I guess has no entertainment value.

Total agreement, dude! Remember when there was real debate on TV with no name-calling, when left and right was Dick Cavett and William F. Buckley? That was back when reasoned discourse and civil debate were still valued. Now it's all name-calling, guilt by association, and emotionalism.

And online, trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 04:26 PM

4 hours out shopping, and I seem to be way behind.

Taconius: Craig Kilborn was stupid.. (although that was not 'recent') and I hope they didn't give him any more airtime after that. (I sure haven't heard from him recently)

You mention a couple of Democratic politicians doing stupid things. I hope they were voted out if those acts were documented, but it does show that you CAN find stupid, hateful behavior in individuals in ANY group.

The only semi-serious situations you mention (which I missed) are the stupid joking by Maher/Kerry...and that was 4 years ago, and evidently a one-time slip....and the remark by Ed Schultz, which I'd have to see in context to decide its 'flavor'. Ed does wave his arms a bit, but I seldom hear him make overt remarks that come close to what that 'might' be.

Now.... while I totally agree that provocative speech is to be decried, no matter who does it, it is only the right, such AS Beck & Limbaugh & O'Reilley & Hannity who are paid millions to do it night after night on mainstream TV. THIS is the big issue...and I already said... twice, I believe... that I KNOW that Beck wouldn't last if he made clear, direct threats... so why do you and John keep requiring me to document some? The point is that Beck does, night after night, distort, prevaricate and inflame with provocative rhetoric which is **different in kind** from the admittedly 'biased' language most of the middle-to-left pundits use! (And one aspect of **different in kind** is constant appeal to Conservative Christian 'values'...suggesting that "God is on OUR side".) Almost ALL the shrillest right-wing extremism of the past election used **God** to promote and underwrite their views. I have the feeling that were they to get a significant majority, the 1st Amendment would get an interesting re-interpretation.....one 'freedom' the right-wing seems to cherish is their presumed 'freedom' to harass and intimidate everyone else... based on their notion that waving a Bible is sufficient validation.


................anyway, *I* am reluctant to deny anyone
freedom of speech, but I sure do resent a network like Fox hiring and supporting the extremist views they do. It makes money, but...sheesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:12 PM

naw Bruce, lets say Budweiser Beer puts an ad on a Beck show or one of the others, a simple email to the companies "contact us" website that says .. ya know what, I am gonna stop buying your beer since you seem to buy into this name calling entertainment like Beck and __ and ___ .. that will get their attention. Every consumer letter is read and stored and reponded to, i know I created enough Call center applications ... that is all I am saying, voice the outrage towards the people who advertise on the shows and that can make a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:17 PM

Here's the problem, Taco...

No one is attacking you here... Yeah, they might attack yer ideas and yer arguments but that's all I have read so lighten up 'cause playin' the "ad hominem" card when there ain't any of it going on won't win you any debating points...

Now, Ol-ster...

It's the old argument about yelling fire in a crowded theater... I mean, there are limitations on free speech... There have been documented cases where people were fired up by Beck and gone out and used violence.... Might of fact there are a couple links in this thread to those incidents...

In the military you are taught to obey regardless of the orders... The military isn't democracy... You obey orders... Period... I had a Sargent (Haney) once tell us that if he was ordered to kill his mother he'd do it... That is obedience... The problem is that we have a severely dumbed down nation and way too many of them are just like Sargent Haney and are not capable of critical thought... They just obey... That is why we don't need delusional people giving the orders... This is beyond free speech... This is back to why it is wrong to yell "Fire" in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:27 PM

bobster, i agree with the dumbed down nation. That is why I think voicing opinions against the advertisers is productive. It costs millions to make a commercial to hock a product. The last thing they want is for people to say, hey you want to spend your money supporting a show like this, I won't buy your product. It gets their attention really fast. In one of my clients call center database that I created, they got 10 calls on one of their commercial, after only 10 calls, they pulled the commercial and replaced it with something else. The theory is people have to be really upset to comment, and for each that do, there are hundreds or thousands that think the same way and won't buy our product. Hitting them via the people running ads on the show, that is a pain they don't want. If a big advertiser walks, the show is not very long for the TV world

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:40 PM

I cannot attest to the truth of the following. Perhaps someone can.

I`d heard years back that one letter written by a POed voter, rate payer, etc., indicated that there were about 1000 others who couldn`t be arsed to write a letter, and that the one letter had the influence of a thousand.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: ragdall
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:53 PM

A link to a copy of the ad

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:21 PM

@Bill D: We may disagree, but I appreciate your discussing the issues instead of insulting me, putting words in my mouth, or making assumptions about my opinions. You may have a perspective that I think may cause you to see things other than the way they really are, but I won't ridicule you for expressing your honest opinion. And hey… my name's not Taco, okay? If Taconicus is too long, how about just Tac?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:40 PM

Bobert, that stuff about having to follow orders is bullshit. You follow an illegal one, and you go to jail for it. No, it's not a democracy, but every individual is accountable for their actions.

Beck and Limbaugh can shoot their mouths off forever. The people who listen to them are all individually accountable for their actions. Each person who kills someone because they thought someone else told them to is STILL accountable. It doesn't matter if it's a guy who thought Beck told him to shoot someone, and it doesn't matter if it's Manson thinking the Beatles' songs told him to kill. It still comes down to the guy who pulls the trigger.

The gripe I have is that we, as a society, have encouraged stupidity. People have been conditioned to be followers. If they do "question authority", then "authority" is all they question. There are enough stupid people who always believe the guy on the internet or the TV who claims something be a lie, or bad just because it comes from the government. The "always disbelievers" aren't any different or any less dangerous than the "always believers", and they certainly aren't any smarter. They're the same folks who go after people here instead of ideas.

They are fundamentally too stupid to evaluate any idea unless they can lump it together with that person or that side's other ideas and attack the person, or the side.

In a perfect world, nobody would shoot Beck or any other bigmouth, but people would be smart enough to check for and recognize the truth of what those idiots spout.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:57 PM

Not bullshit at all, Jeri...

Perhaps you don't live asround these folks... I live right in the middle of them and that is one reason why I'm moving... These people are insanely angry at the government, Democrats, liberals, pin-headed elitists and they routinely call black people niggers, threaten to kill Obama and they listen to Glen Beck...

Maybe if you were to spend a couple weeks living in the middle of these people you'd understand...

Your argument that people are accountable for their actions is also lacking when you have people like these people... I mean, they are alot like Sgt. Haney... So, if you think that someone like Beck can incite people to kill and that he not have an responsibility in it you are way off base...

Hitler didn't march the folks into the gas chambers... His minions did... Does this absolve Hitler of wrong doing??? Me thinks you need to reconsider yer position...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:59 PM

Doesn't matter where I'm from; calling someone taco, beaner, wop, kike, slope, spic, etc. is definitely a derogatory slur and usually meant to be offensive, though I'm willing to believe that those who called me that above didn't purposely mean it that way--aside from Richard Bridge, who seems to be being purposely malicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:01 PM

OK - repost. If I was modded, mod, PM me.

@Tac. Tac, if your objection to being called taco is because it sounds Mexican, your objection requires you to defend it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:07 PM

I live right in the middle of them ... and they routinely call black people niggers, threaten to kill Obama

I don't believe you, Bobert. Where is it you live? Not in any part of America I know of, if you're telling the truth, and I've been all over the country. Threatening to kill Obama (the President) is a federal crime (a felony per 18 USC § 871) and you should've (and from your post, I'm confident you would have) reported them, if it really happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:13 PM

I deleted it, Richard, as well as my post following it. Ethnic slurs are out of bounds. This thread currently has a subject that is NOT altered by trolling.

Taconicus doesn't need to defend himself, if you'd called him "nigger" and he is white, if you called him "rag head" and he is Israeli, if you'd called him "Tonto" and he was Mexican, it would still be unacceptible.

Bobert, what I said about the military is true, no matter who you're living with. I do think people are incited by jerks, but I also think the world would be better if they were expected to take responsibility for their own actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:20 PM

The whole problem is there are just dumb people who don't realize that these shows and those types of people are just in the shock reality TV business. They just can't see it for what it really is. Are the networks right to put this stuff on under the idea that it is politics. Hell it isn't politics it is shock TV.   kinda like Jersey Shore but instead of drunk twenty year olds we have Beck and Lindbagh, Bill Mahr ect ... trying to out shock one another for ratings. WE give them too much publicity I think. Kinda like thinking the "real housewives of NY" represents a real housewife of New York ... eee gads

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM

I can't speak for Bobert, but I also live in Bubbaland, albeit a different part, and I think I know what he's talking about when he says its denizens "threaten to kill Obama". It's not direct threats as in "I'm planning to kill..." or "I will kill..." but more "I'd like to kill..." or "I wish somebody'd kill...". Technically, I guess such statements aren't threats in the legal sense, but the underlying current of of anger and intolerance is there just the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:34 PM

Actually Bee-d, people have been convicted under 18 USC § 871 (and their convictions sustained) for saying the President ought to be killed, or for saying they'd like to kill him. So go ahead and report them--if you really heard such a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:36 PM

Bobert, this is what I was replying to: "In the military you are taught to obey regardless of the orders... The military isn't democracy... You obey orders... Period... I had a Sargent (Haney) once tell us that if he was ordered to kill his mother he'd do it... That is obedience..."

There ARE people who believe what you said, that soldiers HAVE to follow orders, no matter if they're illegal or legal. The problem is that they're dumb enough to believe that. I don't think that we're disagreeing on much. I think that people should be held accountable for what they do, no matter who told them to do it. The disagreement comes with how much responsibility the people telling them, or hinting about what they should do have.

I'm not ready to see other people as responsible for a person's actions. People can be influence to hate someone, but if a person can kill someone just because Beck or Limbaugh tells them to, they probably should be under supervision 24/7. Then we get back to woulda/shoulda/coulda noticing when somebody's gone over the edge.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:50 PM

In the U.S. military, soldiers are required to obey only legal orders. I don't know to what extent enlisted men and women would be excused from liability for following an illegal order (they might be excused for assuming the order was legal) but I know that officers are expected to know the difference, and they would be held responsible (and be punished) for obeying an illegal order that caused them to commit a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:58 PM

Military personnel are taught to follow legal orders, they are also trained to NOT follow illegal orders. You tell a Navy Seal to go kill everyone in the village and you will hear NO Sir I cannot and will not follow that order sir it is illegal sir..

Those that would follow an illegal order will face the same criminal prosecution as those who gave it. Most soldiers do know the difference. But like everywhere else there are bad soldiers also from time to time that we hear about

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:04 PM

Taconicus-Thank you for noticing that I have tried to stick to issues... and I hope YOU noticed that I was not one who shortened your name...(your complaint did follow directly your remarks to me.)

I see your posting history was very intermittent until recently, so I have not 'crossed words' with you until this. My major concern (having been a Philosophy major many years ago) is to sort out truth from fiction and good arguments from flawed logic & specious rhetoric. There are a couple of conservative posters here who also will try to follow this route, but sadly, I find few conservative pundits who will eschew BS for reason. If we were neighbors, I could sit in front of a TV with you and point and explain in real time. I don't know what you watch/listen to, but Rachel Maddow & Lawrence O'Donnell largely try to at least have their facts lined up and make coherent arguments, whether one agrees with their conclusions or not.
I would LOVE to know...from anyone, not just Taconicus... which conservative pundits might be trying to make sense instead of 'points'.
   (I was watching Bill O'Reilly pontificating to Chris Wallace on Fox the other night, and it 'seemed' to me Wallace was squirming as he tried not to call O'Reilly down for the BS he was spouting. Wallace had just tried to clarify and calm some issue, and he obviously wasn't making any headway. I 'think' Wallace might be one who would like to be part of a 'sane' conservative program if he could.... much as Joe Scarbourough and Par Buchanan have toned down their rhetoric in the last few years. [Joe used to be one of my major gripes, and I think he was ummm... 'encouraged' to do so at the time. Now he is right of center, but reasonably .... reasonable.] Buchanan is 'almost' so until you hit certain hot buttons.)

   I miss William F. Buckley... he made me WORK to find flaws in his logic and approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:15 PM

Bill you are comparing apples and oranges ... Buckley was a scholar who engaged in respectful discussion and debate to understand the issue and reach an acceptable result. These shows are shock value TV with people who make their living out of conflict. Completely different people and forums.

Kinda like comparing Bill O'Reilly discussing 2nd Amendment and a "face the nation discussion on it" one is a real discussion on an important topic, the other is just over the top hype for ratings.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:23 PM

Well, Jeri... Yeah, soldiers do have a responsibility to uphold the Geneva Convention and rules of war... With that said, there is a fine li8ne between being insubordinate and doing the right thing...

Lots of folks in this country, especially in rural areas, have become Beck-ites and Bee-duyba-ell and I hear it all the time... BTW, I live in rural Page County, Va. where folks from DC come to visit, fall ion love with the beauty, buy houses and then in two years want the hell out... I might be able for you to actually talk with a couple who are "stuck" here because of the real estate market and cuss the day thet decided to move here...

Redneck Nation is not a figment of my imagination... It is very real... It is armed to the teeth and pissed off to have a black man as president and it listens to Beck as if he were the 2nd Coming...

As for Sgt. Haney... I can remember his words to this very day... The actual quote was, "If I was ordered to kill my mother, my father, my brothers and my sister I'd do it and never give it a second thought"... Something like that kinda hard to shake...

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:34 PM

Bill D, we obviously have different opinions about politics, but I agree with you totally about what you wrote above. I absolutely love discussing (debating, arguing) based on reason and especially with someone who doesn't mind my pointing out logical fallacies (and will acknowledge them). But that's almost impossible these days to do online. First of all, so many people get extremely emotional and can't seem to argue calmly, and also so many people can't keep to the subject: their arguments fly all over the place, and things get out of hand very quickly.

Also, I mostly love music and I can actually make music, so I'm more likely to talk about that. When it comes to politics, arguing about it is often just as pointless as it is frustrating, since I'm not rich, not powerful, and have no control over what goes on politically in this country (or this world)--so really, what does it matter what I say about it? Why get upset (and make other people upset) arguing about it? I enjoy truly intellectual debates about it, but as I explained above, that's hard to do these days.

There are few pundits on either side who really make an effort to be fair, but I do notice the ones who do. I respect Chris Wallace (slightly right) and Charles Krauthammer (decidedly right). I think they're good ones, and on the left there are people I respect, like Alan Colmes and Susan Estrich for instance, because they also try to be fair and they make me think and consider other views.

I like Bill O'Reilly, because he seems to be honest and is very entertaining to watch, although he's not very big in the logic department, and he's a terrible blowhard - but he's fun to watch, kind of like a bull in a china shop. He's not really a conservative the way Buckley was, as far as I can tell he's more of a populist.

And I know what you mean about William F. Buckley. He used to drive me crazy when I watched him as a teenager (I was very Democrat then), because I just knew what he was saying had to be wrong, but I could never figure out any good arguments or reasons to overcome his arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:35 PM

In basic training, they taught a bit about the UCMJ and following LEGAL orders. Leadership schools through the years taught more. I believe that all military people get some sort of UCMJ training. As a medical person, if someone told me to go out and find bad guys to shoot, I'd be giving up my Geneva Conventions non-combatant status. If I refused the order, I'd be violating article 92 and could be prosecuted.

I think those who have never been in the military tend to believe things about the military based stuff they've heard. Some know better, but some don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 09:03 PM

Yeah, Jer... They are... For every hour they get of UCMJ they get a 100 hours of Sgt. Haney yelling in their face... Guess who wins that one???

BTW, Sgt. Haney ain't a made up guy... I had more than my fill of him... He was the biggest jerk I ever knew in my entire life and he was in my face more than anyone I ever knew...

Yo, Tac...

Check out my latest against Chuckie K... You won't have any trouble figuring out who I am... I go there and bust the Chuck-ites, too... BTW, Chuckie K is a light weight who knows nothing about economics and that's a bad thing these days... Check out his latest discussion on Obama... Might be enlightening... I ain't the only one that sees Chuckie as a lightweight...

B~

Subject: Mistaken ideas about the military
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 09:04 PM

Jeri wrote:
I think those who have never been in the military tend to believe things about the military based [on] stuff they've heard.

Indeed. I remember when I saw the (brilliantly crafted, but very manipulative) film American Beauty. At the very beginning the viewer is told that the protagonist will die, but not who kills him. But I guessed right away--correctly--who the murderer was. I thought it was the guy who was supposed to be the retired Marine officer, but the reason I thought he was the killer was that he was so completely different from anyone I'd ever met in the military that I figured he was obviously a psychotic murderer masquerading as a veteran. Of course, my mistake was that I didn't realize his "psychotically repressed-homosexual killer" personality was merely what the typical Hollywood writer/director/producer thinks is typical of high-ranking military officers. So I was right, but for the wrong reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:51 PM

Well, I came close enough... Massanutten Military Academy, Class of '65... Back then, military schools weren't no picnic like they are today... This was basic training with a few classes thrown in... The army was takin' 4 year ROTcies and putting them right into 2nd Lieutenants and shippin' 'um off to Nam within' 6 months of graduatin' 8 Massanutten grads were killed in Vietnam... One recently retired as a 2 star general... This is my background and based on what we went thru8 back then it weren't all that much different than what any marine was going thru... Just alot longer fir us...

So, yeah... I understand military... Ain't no Hollywood... Ain't no story book...

That is what scares me about a sub-culture that alot of you don't know... This ain't Bobert's conspiracy theory here.;.. Beee-zer backed me up on this... Ya'll can say what ya'll think you need to say but there are one heck of alot of folks out here in rural America that ya'll might find frightening... 100% patriots... White... Hate Obama... Hate the government... Hate, Hate...Hate...

Where's this all coming from??? I mean, these people don't read anything... They listen to Rush and they watch Beck and that's all they need...

Now we go back to Sgt. Haney... Heck, Sgt. Haney is now Glen Beck...

He's got yer attention... There's something about folks screaming in yer face that makes that moment every more memorable... I mean, I can't remember what I had for breakfast this mornin' but clearly remember Sgt. Haney...

That's the game here... It's like driving rock 'n roll... It is memorizing to people... They get all tranced-up...They say the same stuff... "Someone ougtta kill that nigger"... "Someone oughtta kill that Commie"..."Someone oughtta kill that Jew"... "Someone oughtta kill that ___________"???

I mean, this is insanity.... It *************all***************** starts with speech.... There is not one single3 war in the history of mankind that did not begin with speech... Glen Beck & Co. are using speech to create an entire sub culture that is ready and willing to fuck you up if you don't think like the way they want you to think...

That, my fiends, is reality...

Yeah, we can say that folks have a perfect right to say this or that but when this or that is about killing other people then in a country founded on everyone's pursuit of happiness then letting propagandists who are preaching violence and killing access to our country's publicly owned airwaves seems to be well on the side of pure wrongness...

But ya'll on the right... Have at it... Hope that the tables don't turn on you and you find yourselves on the wrong side of the armed camp...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:17 PM

Bobster
why I detest hate shows and speeches is that very reason. You bet it is wrong and you bet it is destructive. I just won't give up the bill of rights to stop it. They can say that stuff but if they make threats you bet they can be prosecuted for sure. Ya can't say i am going to kill so and so (doesn't have to be the president) they can be arrested. I wish people today would stop listening to that crap and just take it for what it is. But i live in a dream world I guess. The only thing a person can do is, not listen to it, and if you do, then take action against it by writing the networks and the sponsors for the shows. hey Howard Stern may say he moved to sirus radio cause he wanted to , the fact is his sponsors started leaving the sinking ship cause people started complaining about his antics. That is the fact. We give people like Rush air time and publicity and they revel in it, the more people yell the more they like it cause it only makes them richer and gives them more press. Hitting the sponsors with I won't buy your product for sponsoring that hate show, that works. But I sure am not going to toss out the constitution because people say things I detest either.   That is no solution my brother

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:24 PM

"...so really, what does it matter what I say about it?"

Well, I know that it is hard to make things better, but it's pretty easy to make things worse, so my 'goal' is to leave bits of the most sense *I* can make scattered about in hopes that some will detect glimmerings of reason...about HOW to debate, if not actual conclusions. I don't presume to actually change many minds... (at least not obviously ☺)... but I'd hope that I don't become a bad example of MY side to be quoted with scorn.

(and I can sorta make music also, if simple autoharp stuff in 3-4 chords counts. I have been on Mudcat since the beginning, and 15 years ago, I mainly answered 'folk' questions and tried to explain what 'folk' was in my inimitable style...THAT is harder than explicating the difference between liberal and conservative.)

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:26 PM

gee...thread creep sure has taken this far afield from the Rabbis, hmmm?

"Guilty, yer honor"

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:34 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:35 PM

Well, Ol-ster, then if you think the only way to bring sanity into the equation is to boycott their advertisers the guess again...

Whatever gas medication they are sellin' on these shows don't really give a rat's ass if Ol-ster don't buy Gas-X... To them??? It's like, who is O-ster??? Hey, gang!!! Profits are up again this month so let's party..."

This ain't about normal people here, Ol-ster... This is about folks who lookin' for a fight... And...

...they are armed to the teeth... I know these boys... I've had to live with 'um for the last 26 years of my life an' they is some messed up people...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:36 PM

By the way... I have a morbid fascination with what MAKES people become liberalish or conservatish...... how can we look at the same data and go such divergent ways?


oh...and 100

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:36 PM

ooops...

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:41 PM

Liked the less silly post, Bill...

And fir the record??? If ya ever wanted to hear some well thought out reasoning, ya can purdy much count on what ever Bill says if I ain't around to say it first...

****grin****

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:12 AM

what MAKES people become liberalish or conservatish

Two basic conflicting desires in the primate mind, Bill: the desire to live your own life the way you want to, and the desire to make other people live their lives the way you want them to. The former is the individualist instinct, and expresses itself in the politics of the right, and the latter is the collectivist instinct, and expresses itself in the politics of the left. The conflict between those two desires is comprised in the dynamic of all primate societies.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:29 AM

"the desire to make other people live their lives the way you want them to" is epitomized by the anti-choice policies, anti-gay marriage policies, and "America is a Christian nation - love it or leave it" rhetoric, etc. *of the Right*

So what the heck are you talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:30 AM

Oh yeah, and "you are either with us or with the Muslim terrorists".

Yup, no coercion there.

Oops sorry. That was sarcasm.

Subject: Whittle on blaming conservatives and the Tea Party
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:08 AM

Since you're interested in philosophy and psychology, Bill…

Someone asked Bill Whittle whether the left was ever going to give up blaming conservatives and the Tea Party movement for violence in our culture. This is what he said.

No, they're not going to give up. This is very clear--it's called prepping the battle space. The left's weapon is shaping the narrative. If you're going to run counter to the truth and common sense in so many areas you've got to have a consistent story and keep telling it. The Tea Party movement, as anyone who has ever attended a Tea Party rally can tell you, are the most decent, kind, gentle, normal people in the world, most of whom have never been to a political rally in their lives. So in order to destroy the Tea Party, you're going to first call them racist – well, that didn't really stick, so you're going to call them stupid – well, that didn't really stick… I know, we'll call them violent. So for the last two years, every time something goes wrong… A guy flies an airplane into a building: "He's a right-winger!" (Oops, no, turns out he's a left-winger.) A guy shoots at the White House: "He's a right-winger!" (No, turns out he's actually a left-winger.) A guy starts shooting in taking hostages at the Discovery Channel: "It's some some right-wing Tea Party nut!" (Whoops, no, turns out he's a left-wing radical environmentalist.) Someone tries to set off a car bomb in Times Square: "Probably a Tea Party nut angry at Obamacare!" (Uh, no, turns out he's an Islamist Jihadist.)

They're going to keep saying it's right wing violence, and they're going to keep preparing people to believe it, and now after all this time, the big lie has been repeated over and over enough times, so many times, that people do believe it even though it's not only untrue, it's actually the antithesis of the truth. Now their fingers are being dragged over the cliff of reality, and their fingernails are in the granite, trying to hold onto this idea that the Tea Party and the right wing are responsible for all this violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:12 AM

The problem, Ol-ster, is that no one here is talkin' about messin' with folks Bill of Rights...

Face it, there are limitations on the 1st amendment... That is a given... The example that is most often given is that people do not have the "right" to endanger others by yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire... People don't have the right to threaten one another with violence... Those are both crimes that society purdy much universally agrees with...

I mean, all we are talkin' about here is accepting the fact that "speech" is a tool that can and has been used to whip people up into a lather and commit violence against other people... It really doesn't matter if it was Hitler using his words to get the brown-shirts to go out and terrorize Jews or the KKK using words to get a bunch of their supporters to go out and shoot into a crowd at an anti-Klan rally in Greensboro, NC in 1979 killing 5 innocent people...

With rights come responsibility...

That is the cornerstone of any civilized society... This isn't any more about trashing your Bill of Rights then sane gun safety... I mean, there is a reason we don't put loaded Glocks in the baby's crib for baby to play with...

Sanity is all that the Rabbis are asking for...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:20 AM

One of the reasons I hate the media today. Everything from all sides is just so distorted that it makes me want to scream. I hear this stuff about the tea party movement. Although I do not agree with them in politics at all I have neighbors and friends that support them and what those people are saying it is hard to disagree with. Who doesn't want lower taxes and more jobs. Good people and bad people come in all walks of life, across all political parties, across all religions and non religions. Yet the media presents them as gun toting crazies, likewise Fox news will banter the term progressive around like it is a dirty word. Yet when one looks back at history, great things came out of the progressive movement, like new laws against child labor etc ... again that is now a term of hate that is passed around like a pot of coffee. Sooner or later, we need to wake up as a people and look for areas that bring together answers for complex problems or simply fail as a nation. To continue to embrace the hate that blasts back and forth on all sides is counter productive to America and labeling people via politics is a bad as labeling people by race .. I think anyway. The new media today embraces the hate messages because of its entertainment value.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Smedley
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:27 AM

Tia's points seem especially pertinent and it would be interesting to see a response from Taconicus (whose characterisation of left/right is so American......).

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:12 AM

The behavior you describe is neither left or right, it is the actions of disturbed individuals committing criminal acts. It would be like taking a poll in a prison to determine the political views of each murderer. The conclusion , they are all right, or they are all left hence everyone from whatever side is a murderer.   However, that is what the media does today. Makes great cover stories. Fact is, criminal behavior exists and did long before any political hate peddling.   The difference today, we as a nation have dumbed down and actually believe that stuff.

I think we are on the same page as how this stuff all occurs anymore in the media and is immediately labeled political. Hence we solve no problems, create animosity between good people and the rancor continues.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:19 AM

Because, Tia, politics is a multi-axis matter. The division between left and right as it applies to politics generally refers to the degree of economic control by government over the people. What you're talking about is the morality or private behavior axis, i.e., how much control (and in what direction) government has over the personal activities of the people. Also, you're more familiar with the American divisions into what's loosely called conservative and liberal, but more accurately should perhaps be called traditionalist and utopian. In America, both traditionalists and utopians want collectivist control over individual freedoms. Libertarians prefer fewer controls on both axes, and generally favor individual freedom both in moral (personal activity) and economic areas.

So in reality, both conservatives and social liberals have collectivist leanings in those areas. Many conservatives are moral traditionalists who would like people to conform to a certain version of morality in sexual matters. Many liberals are social utopians who would like people to conform to social utopian limits on speech. Luckily (I think), in America the First Amendment puts a check on both of them so we don't, as Canada does for example, have laws that criminalize the use of certain words or the expression of politically incorrect ideas, and we no longer criminalize various types of consensual sexual activity between adults. Accordingly, in America the big battle right now is in the area of economic control, which is not restrained by the First Amendment.

If you want to talk about the moral/personal activity axis of collectivist control over individuals, you should start a different thread because it's really a different issue entirely, although once again, briefly answering your original question, it does reflect that basic conflict between wanting freedom for oneself and wanting to control others.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:35 AM

What has happened, Tac, is that we have had 30 years of allowing thr free markets to police themselves and all it has done is create a bunch of bad cops and unprecedented corporate corruption and a massive redistribution of income away from the working class to the monied class... Same things that we are seeing today in Egypt could easily happen here in the US... There is always a breaking point...

BTW, also during the last 30 years of conservative rule (not governance) the US has dropped in every good category and jumped up in the bad ones... This is what the right has done... Not the left... The left hardly gets any microphone time... The media is owned by the corporate right and it pushes it's story at US 24/7...

Heck with economic control... Lets just level the playing field... Bill has spoken about "Fairness Doctrine" in the media... We haven't seen that since the 70s... That's all these Rabbis are saying... We do need balance and fairness... It's too bad that tyhe left has to scrape and scrounge and pool their money to be able to buy one friggin' ad in a newspaper in order to get a point across when the right has unlimited access...

Bring back the Fairness Doctrine and I think things will work out because then people will have more information before forming opinions and making choices...

B~

Subject: Starting new thread in the BS/Non-Music forum area
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:39 AM

An And incidentally, I have no idea how to start a new thread in the BS/Non-Music forum area. Is that a division that's made by the Moderators?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:46 AM

That ("it's because of unrestrained free enterprise") is the Democrat party line Bobert is parroting above. Actually, for the last 30 years we've had more and more government control of corporations and economic matters, corporatist government meddling, which those on the other side would say is the cause (along with massive government spending) of the current economic problems. But that's an entirely different issue belonging in a different thread, as is the argument about the "Fairness Doctrine" and similar proposals for utopian control over speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 11:10 AM

We don't have "free enterprise, Tac... We have a socialistic system that has been devised to let the Fat Cats win 'um all... There has to be a level playing field to have "free enterprise"... What we have are cooked books and cooked laws... Nuthin' free about that...

BTW, go to the top and click on "start new thread" then you'll have some options on the left to choose from... One will be "BS"... Chick on it an' you'll be rockin' n' rolling in the Mudpit...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:01 PM

Actually since the dust bowl we had laws to regulate the financial sector and they worked for 3/4 of a century. Right before the collapse of the banks this time the SEC was watered down to the point where their lawyers were going to kinkos to use the copy machine because they didn't have a working one in the DC office (I read that post from one of the attorneys working for the SEC) Their budget was axed. There was this thought that banks could regulate themselves and learned from past mistakes .. well that was a trillion dollar plus gamble for the taxpayer that cost us all. That coupled with two expensive wars and we are now in the situation we are in. It is not really about new laws, it is about enforcement of what we had for 3/4 of a century .. when the government choose to ignore what worked, then we all had to pay the price or watch the dust bowl lines again occur. Mis-management by all parties, gov and private sector

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:05 PM

We never learned a thing from the founding fathers:

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." Thomas Jefferson

Subject: Economics and the Mudpit
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM

We don't have "free enterprise, Tac... We have a socialistic system that has been devised to let the Fat Cats win 'um all... There has to be a level playing field to have "free enterprise"... What we have are cooked books and cooked laws... Nuthin' free about that...

I can't believe we agree about something, Bobert. It's not exactly socialistic, but it's a kind of socialistic economics just as fascism is a form of socialism. It's been called corporatism, and it's the form used by the fascist governments of the 1930s, and favored by the Obama administration and the Democrat party today. In a corporatist system, corporations are controlled by the state "for the good of the people." The government gains control, which is what statists want, and the corporations gain government monopolies and protection both monopolistic and financial (bailouts, etc.) Small businesses cannot compete because of all the special deals granted the corporations and all of the regulations imposed on small business, and the economy (and therefore the people) suffer. Free enterprise is what made the American economy great, and we have not had free enterprise for a long time.

Whenever government gets into bed with business, just as when government gets into bed with religion, at least one of them always ends up raping the other.

BTW, go to the top and click on "start new thread" then you'll have some options on the left to choose from... One will be "BS"... Chick on it an' you'll be rockin' n' rolling in the Mudpit....

Thanks. "Mudpit" is an appropriate name for this area, I suppose.

Subject: Spurious quotations
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:24 PM

Be careful about lifting quotes from the Internet, Olddude.

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.

That has not been found anywhere in Thomas Jefferson's writings. It has been identified as spurious, and indeed the words "inflation" and "deflation" as applied to the economy were not even invented until after Jefferson's lifetime. See Suzy Platt, ed., Respectfully Quoted: A Dictionary of Quotations Requested from the Congressional Research Service (Washington D.C.: Library of Congress, 1989; Bartleby.com, 2003).

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

That's a paraphrase of a statement Jefferson made in a letter to John Taylor in 1816. Here's the full sentence: "And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." - Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, Monticello, 28 May 1816. Ford 11:533.

The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.

This a misquotation of a comment by Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes. What he actually said was, "Bank-paper must be suppressed, and the circulating medium must be restored to the nation to whom it belongs." - Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, Monticello, 24 June 1813. Ford 11:30.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:29 PM

"... have a morbid fascination with what MAKES people become liberalish or conservatish...... how can we look at the same data and go such divergent ways?" Bill D

"...the desire to live your own life the way you want to, and the desire to make other people live their lives the way you want them to. The former is the individualist instinct, and expresses itself in the politics of the right, and the latter is the collectivist instinct, and expresses itself in the politics of the left." Tacon

"...the desire to make other people live their lives the way you want them to" is epitomized by the anti-choice policies, anti-gay marriage policies, and "America is a Christian nation - love it or leave it" rhetoric, etc. *of the Right* Tia

I begin to have a glimmer of understanding as to why USian liberals and conservatives share little common ground. Instead of travelling along parallel ways we start back to back and go opposite directions. Kind of like dueling.

Tac's reasoning made me sputter; it is so counter to the facts as I perceive them. Tia has it exactly right.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:44 PM

That exact quote comes from the Jefferson Monticello website.

monticello

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:46 PM

Perhaps you should consider reading further, and with an open mind, rather than stopping as soon as you read something that is counter to what you already believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:46 PM

(That was directed to Ebbie.)

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:50 PM

That exact quote comes from the Jefferson Monticello website.

I'm sure it was, but you neglected to look further down the page, where they explained which portions of the quotation are spurious and which portions derive from what Jefferson actually wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:52 PM

I see it thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:55 PM

@olddude:
You're welcome. :-)

It comes from a section of the Monticello website entitled "spurious quotations."

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 01:17 PM

Calling Obama Facist is cheap, Tea Party, ignorant shite. Its the Republican/Fox News/"Conservative talk radio/Tea Party tactic of constantly throwing untrue turd balls because "winning" is more important than reason or truth. Tea Party nut jobs can say that to each other, but outside that circle you just make yourself look foolish.

I think that accusing the Obama Administration of Corporatism and Fascism with out pointing out that your average Republican administration is much father down that road is either dishonest or ignorant. A simple example would be the treatment of Big Oil. The Bush Administration has secret meetings and gives them every thing they want. The Obama administration insists that BP clean up after itself and President Obama is trying to cut their tax breaks. Which the Republican Congress will not allow.

Obama is working with the corporations and trying to reign in their excesses. The Republicans and Tea Party are the Corporations cheerleaders and whores.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 01:24 PM

There is a gold investment company which uses that quotation (almost in its entirety, I think) to promote its wares in radio commercials. Maybe his gold is spurious, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 01:26 PM

Taconicus... I must respectfully dispute some aspects of your analysis:

"Two basic conflicting desires in the primate mind, Bill: the desire to live your own life the way you want to, and the desire to make other people live their lives the way you want them to. The former is the individualist instinct, and expresses itself in the politics of the right, and the latter is the collectivist instinct, and expresses itself in the politics of the left"

Basically, this is not an 'either-or' division, nor is an exhaustive LIST of the various categories in which humans operate. (I'm not sure one is possible, though we can narrow it for purposes of debate.)
   Neither one is limited to left or right politics, and in particular, the 2nd concept.."...the desire to make other people live their lives the way you want them to.".. is certainly NOT specific to the left. I have thought about this quite a bit, and 'usually' break it down into 2 sub-categories.. **the desire to have people think like you want, and the desire to make people act/behave like you want, whether they think like you or not.**
On the left, folks certainly hope that 'they' can be taught to 'think like us'... but there is a very strong drive on the RIGHT to demand adherence to a 'standard of behavior', expressed in attempts to force religious doctrines, such as 'public prayer' and Biblical references in public places (money, Pledge of Allegiance, 10 Commandments monuments..etc.). This is an attempt to instill the definition of this as a *Christian Nation* into everyday parlance, despite what the Constitution says, and no matter who is made uncomfortable by it. (I can cite many personal examples, and you can read about it almost weekly). There are other examples involving gun laws, states rights, tax policy..etc, that look/sound like expressions of the desire for "personal freedom" on the surface, but when unpacked indicate a desire to **impose** personal & political attitudes on others.
   This assertion I make requires quite a lot of explication to adequately defend/explain, because it involves much linguistic analysis and references to philosophic "informal fallacies"

Let's see if I can express it with an example:
   When conservative politics says: "We want to reduce or eliminate excessive regulation and promote 'free market enterprise' and 'individual initiative'"., this often translates into "We want businesses to be able to make whatever they wish, using whatever ingredients they care to, charge whatever they want, advertise without supervision, pay whatever wages they care to, be free of environmental restrictions and do whatever necessary to eliminate competition!"
Of course they don't SAY such things in clear language, but that's what lobbyists are paid to strive for. Thus, I feel that part 2 above.."**...the desire to make people act/behave like you want, whether they think like you or not.** is the rights way of saying they wish to IMPOSE on society their 'freedom' to do whatever they care to.

How does this attitude differ from what the left tries to do? Well, think of it this way: If the 'left' prevailed and the division between church & state were really clearly expressed and maintained, conservative Christians could still go to church and worship as they please, raise their children as they wish, and pray to God **silently**, whether in school, before meetings...or at football games. If the 'right' prevailed, everyone else would be forced to endure public prayer at those events no matter what their personal religion or lack of it. The right tries to frame the issue as "attempts to restrict their freedom", when the guiding principle should be: "Freedom OF religion necessarily involves freedom FROM religion for those who wish it."
(I use religion because it is perhaps the easiest example to describe semi-briefly... business, states rights, guns, abortion..etc., take a lot more typing)


So... I keep trying to ward off what seems to me to be over-simplified responses to these issues, and get at what gets hidden in slogans and talking points....no matter how honest and sincere.

As Alfred North Whitehead said:"Strive for simplicity, but learn to mistrust it."

(I don't dare start on Whittle's remark "The Tea Party movement, as anyone who has ever attended a Tea Party rally can tell you, are the most decent, kind, gentle, normal people in the world, ... right now. Counter-examples are numerous.

Well, THAT shot my free time for awhile......I have tedious plumbing to do...

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 01:28 PM

(several interesting posts during the hour I was composing...maybe later)

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 01:34 PM

>>Maybe his gold is spurious, too. <<

"his" gold probably is. At least the investment Vehicles offered probably are. The people running the ads are in business to make money and to pay for the ads. They are like Mr. Potter in "Its a Wonderful Life" profiting from the panic as the feed the panic.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 01:37 PM

Jack the Sailor wrote:
Calling Obama Facist is cheap, Tea Party, ignorant shite.

Don't get carried away, Jack, or make unwarranted projections. That's a major logical fallacy you're using to tar the Tea Party. Pigs and humans are both mammals; that doesn't mean humans are pigs.

I hate cigarette smoking the same as Hitler did--that doesn't make me a Nazi. Likewise, saying that the fascists and the Obama administration (and other governments in history) had corporatist economic policies is not equating the Obama administration with fascism. When people think of the evil that the fascist governments of Germany and Italy committed, it's not their economic policies they're talking about.

It's just a matter of historical economic history that the fascists used corporatism, which is a collectivity economic policy. Czarist Russia also used it to some extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 02:01 PM

I'm not going to get involved in this muddle, but I will just say this:

When I read Taconicus' posts, what I hear, loud and clear, is the voice of Ayn Rand.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 02:05 PM

Me at 2:03 from a different browser.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 02:10 PM

>>Don't get carried away, Jack, or make unwarranted projections<<

I wasn't carried away. It wasn't unwarranted.

Obama isn't corporatist or Fascist. Even Bush was neither of those things even though he was much more in bed with the Corps.

The implication is hyperbolic and foolish. You should know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 02:17 PM

To Bill D:

Okay, now we're dividing into a number of different issues, making discussion difficult.

I agree, it's not an either/or division, or an exhaustive list. If it were one or the other, societies would be either anarchies or totalitarian states, whereas usually they are in-between. It's just two basic opposing instincts that interact in the dynamic of human society.

You're wrong about "attempts to force religious doctrines," etc. It's quite the contrary. There are movements to change the law to ALLOW public prayer, but NO serious attempt to require it as a matter of law. There are people who want to ALLOW communities to display religious symbols like the Ten Commandments, memorial crosses, etc. on public property, but NO efforts to pass laws requiring their presence. And "we are a Christian nation" is an opinion, not something that there is any serious threat of being imposed on us since most people continue to at least say they support the First Amendment, and no popular political movement (with the possible exception of the Islamic Brotherhood) has as its goal the establishment of a state religion.

But anyway, don't confuse what I said about "left" and "right" in our earlier conversation. I was talking about economic coercion only, not attempts to define morality, religion, etc. Look at what I wrote above to Tia, for example. With some very narrow exceptions, relating to a certain kind of libertarianism for instance, the current major political camps do not divide neatly into individual freedom versus collectivism in all areas of human or political life. However, they do more strongly align between the major parties in economic matters.

So really, we need to discuss economic individualism/collectivism separately from individualism/collectivism in other areas, at least when discussing current politics. As you yourself indicate, neither "side" is limited to one or the other in all aspects of human society. I was talking about economic freedom. I don't mind talking about religious and sexual freedom, but that should be discussed separately.

One final request: don't automatically assume that because I quote somebody, I'm adopting everything he says. I think there's a lot in what Bill Whittle says, and good food for thought and discussion, but it was he, not I, who said it. I do agree with the main thrust of his argument however, that many on the left are using the "violence is caused by rhetoric from the right" to tar their political enemies, and there is no real justification for doing so. What they are doing is scapegoating, and any serious student of history should realize it. That's one of the reasons it's important to remember what happened during the Holocaust – so that we don't make the same mistakes, or allow ourselves to be fooled by the same types of propaganda techniques that led to one of the major nightmares of the last century.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 02:28 PM

Don Firth wrote:
When I read Taconicus' posts, what I hear, loud and clear, is the voice of Ayn Rand.

Thanks for the compliment (intended or not), Don, but I don't hold with objectivism. I think compassion and charity, and helping others, is an important aspect of our humanity. I also don't like her attitude toward Robin Hood. I just don't think it's moral to enslave one group of people to help another group. My charity should come from my own wallet, not others'.

In order for societies to exist, there must be a basic contract between government and its citizens that allows for taxation to provide for the common defense (against not only invasion from foreign powers but also against crimes of force and fraud from domestic sources), and to maintain the infrastructure, which includes the environment. But forced taxation for the purposes of redistribution of wealth strikes me as a form of slavery, and therefore immoral. And anyway it never achieves its purpose, just makes life more miserable for everyone except the middlemen and powerbrokers who legislate and administer it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 03:03 PM

>>But forced taxation for the purposes of redistribution of wealth strikes me as a form of slavery, and therefore immoral.<<

That idea is beyond stupid. It is closed minded, willfully ignorant, antisocial, unpatriotic fantasy.

He's the deal, all the money that you make that doesn't require the use of public facilities like ports and roads and institutions such as property laws and regulated and insured banks to make, keep and spend is yours to keep. The other 99.999% is subject to taxation by your lawfully elected governments.

Taxation has nothing to do with morality. Taxation is politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 03:12 PM

That idea is beyond stupid. It is closed minded, willfully ignorant, antisocial, unpatriotic fantasy.

In other words, you disagree with it but can't refute it, so shout it down and call me names instead. That speaks for itself; no need for me to comment further on it (as far as your postings are concerned).

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 03:23 PM

No. I refuted it in that same post. But you, like anyone who holds that type of radical irrational idea, managed to filter that out.

I'm tired of tossing pearls at you. Enjoy your ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 03:35 PM

What is with the name calling. That is exactly the problem that the thread is about. Nobody can talk, as soon as someone disagrees it has to be name calling. Taconicus is trying to engage in a simple debate and discussion. I don't see him calling names .. you don't have to agree, you certainly are entitled to your difference in view ... but the name calling is not warranted. I have my view which come from a registered independent, we are the guys that really do swing the elections so I do like to hear everyone speak on issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 03:53 PM

**running by to check in**

I read this:"There are movements to change the law to ALLOW public prayer, but NO serious attempt to require it as a matter of law. "...etc., and it demonstrates my point(s).
This is an example of equivocation. It plays with the very meaning of the words.
**IF** people manage to attain the legal right to indulge in public prayer in the places I mention, it by definition imposes on others. That is, we already have a situation where NO ONE is required to have a prayer session, but the point is not to 'stack the deck' in favor of a religious group who wishes to promote their theology, no matter who objects. I have personally watched Jews (and a couple of atheists) go to the trouble of being late to a meeting (of a non-religious group) so they would not be subjected to exhortations to Jesus by the VERY religious 'management'. Having a law 'allowing' unrestricted public prayer **IS** an imposition, whether the prayer is required or not! Why? Because those who wish to have prayers at every conceivable event WILL do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 04:10 PM

Bill D wrote:
This is an example of equivocation. It plays with the very meaning of the words.

No, it's not equivocation, and I won't accuse you of sophistry either. I don't disagree with you about whether it's preferable or not to have religious prayers at public events (although if you're fair you'll admit that the movement to allow prayers is asking for non-specific religion prayers, e.g., not one's specifying Christ, or Mohamed, etc. – just God. Not that that's necessarily any better, but you shouldn't use Jesus-prayers as an example for your argument).

Anyway, it's not equivocation, because there is a difference between a law forbidding prayer at government-funded institutions, and a law requiring it. Personally, I like separation of state and religion – I don't even like getting religion mixed up with money by putting "in God we trust" on our currency and coins, and I don't think we should have inserted "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, which was done in the 1950s as an anti-Communist measure. The Pledge should be applicable to all Americans, including athiests. But there is a difference between trying to pass a law requiring prayer, and trying to get rid of the law prohibiting it. A big difference.

But this is a side-issue, isn't it? School prayer isn't really a big issue anymore, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 06:01 PM

Hmmmmmm???

I go away fir a few hours and come back and am astounded by the shear volume of material that our new friend, Tac, has added to this thread...
I mean, their are links to this and that and seems that most of it is anti-Obama stuff which leads me to wonder if we have the latest Repub plant that has been assigned to Mudcat... I mean, we've had 'um here... They could pump out reams and reams and stats and quotes and links with all the appropriate bells and whistles and, and, and...

...never quite make it up top...

I'd like to think that I am wrong but having seen so many come and go I do have to wonder???

So, Tac... Maybe you'd like to tell us what brought you to a websirte that is about folk music??? But maybe not??? I mean, I have no right to ask but I am curious...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 06:04 PM

"What is with the name calling. That is exactly the problem that the thread is about." Bravo and Amen, olddude.

This has long been a problem on the 'Cat, intramural ad hominum attacks, as well as on public persons who are the object of our opprobrium. Confront ideas with ideas. Nobody takes bullys seriously.

Subject: Am I now, or have I ever been...?
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 06:36 PM

I ... am astounded by the shear volume of material that ... Tac has added ... [there] are links to this and that and seems that most of it is anti-Obama stuff ...

What, do you just make this stuff up? I don't recall putting in any links to "anti-Obama stuff." In fact, few links at all. Aside from quoting one pundit that I thought was interesting when I heard him on Red Eye last night, everything I wrote pretty much came straight from my head.

which leads me to wonder if we have the latest Repub plant that has been assigned to Mudcat...

Are you for real? Call off the witchhunt, Bobbo. It's really lame.

So, Tac... Maybe you'd like to tell us what brought you to a websirte that is about folk music???

Sorry Bobbo, you can start the Inquisition without me. Why don't you click on my name and see whether or not the vast majority of posts I've made here over the PAST FOUR YEARS have been about folk music or not.

Jeez... This must be what McCarthy-ism felt like.   Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Republican Party?
*rolls eyes*

Subject: the name game
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 06:38 PM

Whoops, sorry for calling you Bobbo, Bobert. For some reason I thought that was your posting handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 07:46 PM

"..there is a difference between a law forbidding prayer at government-funded institutions, and a law requiring it."
Of course there is... but that obvious fact ignores the distinction I made. The equivocation comes from not distinguishing between a law that allows such prayers and one which requires them. When permission is given, then action is logically ...no, practically..embedded in the response.
Once more... **IF** the law allows public prayers at government-funded institutions, those fundamentalists who wish to have such prayers **will** see that prayers happen. Allowing, when there is pressure from such groups is essentially de facto ensuring that established religious observances -- almost always Christian, with Jesus being invoked, will occur.
Since the law already permits and defends the right of students/persons to pray silently in any way they wish, any pressure to 'allow' public prayer or other religious ritual is superfluous and designed to promote and establish prayer as a regular and authorized routine.

"School prayer isn't really a big issue anymore, is it?" Depends on what you mean by "anymore" and "big". Various schools, usually in the South, and especially in Texas, still do what they can to find loopholes and skirt the law. Not only that, but few courts or law enforcement agencies monitor such activities at woodworkers meeting where *I* have recently seen it.

I am glad to see that you agree that separation of church & state should be observed, but I fear that you are not dealing with reality when asserting that ..."there is a difference between trying to pass a law requiring prayer, and trying to get rid of the law prohibiting it...". It just doesn't deal with what happens when there is no law 'prohibiting' it.

(I work with wood, and know about endangered species. A few years ago, certain Mangroves along public waterways in Florida were being ruthlessly cut down as homeowners across the way wanted to "improve the view". A law was passed, forbidding cutting of Mangroves without a state permit. Well, after a few years people complained, saying that they 'just wanted a decent view, and those plants grew SO fast',...etc. So, the law was revised, 'permitting' reasonable trimming. Guess what happened? Homeowners interpreted the law to mean that THEY could decide what 'reasonable' trimming was, and again, they hacked the Mangroves mercilessly. The law had to be changed BACK to require permits for any trimming.)

It's common human nature to wish to do what they wish... and laws have to be there to try to make the game vaguely fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 07:58 PM

It's common human nature to wish to do what they wish... and laws have to be there to try to make the game vaguely fair.

Which goes right back to what I said at the beginning: people want to be allowed to do what they want to do, and there is a desire in other people to force them to do what they want them to do. So what are we arguing about?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:00 PM

Personally, I am considerably saddened that the use of hyperbole in public discourse is treated as a statement of fact by so many.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:06 PM

I surrender.... sort of... Your answer was very fast, and I doubt you digested my distinctions.

We are arguing (partially)about de facto vs. de jure. YOU asserted that liberals/leftists are the one trying to force others to do things their way. I disagree that this is accurate, and have worn my poor index fingers to the metaphorical bone try to explain why.

I can't do much more.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM

Yeah, Tac... I did check out yer posting history... I think you've equaled yer first four year total since the first of the year...

Ain't no McCartheyism here... We've had folks come in here (below the line) with similar POVs with what looks like entire staffs to do battel with the folk singers... I mean, there were times when I felt like I was debating a hundred people... Just similarities...

Ain't no big thing...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:49 PM

Bill D wrote:
YOU asserted that liberals/leftists are the one trying to force others to do things their way. I disagree that this is accurate.

Oh, that... I admit you're right in the broader sense, as the labels are popularly used today: in many areas conservatives do try to force others to do things their way. I thought I explained above that I was talking about government control of the economy, and economic matters. Popularly, present-day American conservatives are called "right" while social liberals are called "left," but historically, when speaking of economic theory and government control, left refers to government economic control while right refers to individual economic liberty, because (I think) that's what they were talking about when they first started using left/right labels–19th century, wasn't it?

If there's so much confusion about the labels today then perhaps they've outlived their usefulness.

Do you consider yourself a leftist? A progressive?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:43 PM

"I thought I explained above that I was talking about government control of the economy, and economic matters."

hmm? I'd have to go back and see. I can't think how a fellow of my careful *grin* nature would have missed that.


I am basically a Democrat...who 'has' voted for a few Republicans. My personal opinions are all over the map. There are areas (immigration, for example) where a simple yes-no 'might' sound like I'm a conservative Republican, but never for the same reasons that a conservative would hold the position.
   I voted for JFK, was very active in the civil rights area..(two trips to Mississippi for voting rights).. actually ran for state senate in Kansas in 1968 (to defeat an avowed bigot).. I am mostly a practical realist who moved from the Methodist church to Unitarianism to .... rabid skeptic. Progressive? uhhh..not exactly. Leftist? nawww...but I can see it from here. A Democrat because they don't HAVE parties to fit all the possibilites, and Democrats usually do more of the things I approve of...and lately the Republicans are doing a lot I DISapprove of.

I worked briefly for EPA and moved from Kansas to the Wash DC area in 77... and I have strong opinions in environmental issues.

You care to give a similar brief history? (What general area do you inhabit?)

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:46 PM

Oh...and I consider the recent Supreme Court decision on "Citizens United" making corporations 'individuals' to be the worst travesty since Dred Scott... that should help peg me.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:07 PM

FYI (from a basic text on political science):

The terms Right and Left refer to political affiliations which originated early in the French Revolutionary era of 1789-1796, and referred originally to the seating arrangements in the various legislative bodies of France. The aristocracy sat on the right of the Speaker (traditionally the seat of honor) and the commoners sat on the Left, hence the terms Right-wing politics and Left-wing politics.

Originally, the defining point on the ideological spectrum was the ancien régime ("old order"). "The Right" thus implied support for aristocratic or royal interests, and the church, while "The Left" implied support for republicanism, secularism and civil liberties. Because the political franchise at the start of the revolution was relatively narrow, the original "Left" represented mainly the interests of the bourgeoisie, the rising capitalist class. At that time, support for laissez-faire capitalism and Free markets were counted as being on the left; today in most Western countries these views would be characterized as being on the Right.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:13 PM

But how do ya' feel about Bobby Goldsboro's "Honey" as it relates to capital punishment, Bill???

But never mind that stuff...

This thread is about one's 1st amendment rights to incite people to kill...

Bubba says, "If they didn't want to be killed then they shouldn't have been commie Democrats" and the "commie Democrats" say...

..."This shit has gone far enough... Time to reel the hate speech back in... Ain't about 1st amendment here... It's about everyone's right to the "pursuit of happiness" which ain't all that easy to accomplish when there are people trying to kill yer ass...

Count me with the liberal side of the debate...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 11:17 PM

To Don Firth:

Cool beans. Thanks for the info!!!

To Bill D:

That's very interesting. I'm impressed that you ran for office. Sounds like you didn't win against the "avowed bigot" – too bad. (Really? He really declared that he was a bigot?)

Politically, I'm a classical liberal – which is almost nothing like what passes for a "liberal" today. Originally, classical liberalism had as one of its main goals the abolition of privilege, which was standard in governments of the time, and meant special rights or immunities granted to particular classes of individuals, e.g., royalty, aristocracy, clergy, etc. A classical liberal believes in individual rights, limited government, complete equality under the law regardless of race, class, etc., and equality of opportunity (not equality of outcome). Classical liberalism espouses the cause of free men and free markets.

So from what Don Firth says above, I guess that makes me an 18th-century leftist. ;-)

I was a Bobby Kennedy Democrat in the 1960s (I met him and shook his hand when he was running for US Senator from New York), and I was a Reagan Republican in the 1980s, without changing my politics between the two eras – it was the parties that changed.

I've never run for public office, nor do I think I could have won (I'm not a good enough public speaker, and I've the charisma of a baked potato). I have a masters degree in physics, a doctorate in law (I studied constitutional law). I put myself through college driving a taxi cab, and after college I had careers in software and aerospace engineering and as a patent attorney.

I think the recent Supreme Court decision on "Citizens United" was correctly decided, and is probably the most misunderstood and most deceptively demagogued and mischaracterized Supreme Court decision in recent history.

I sing and play guitar, mostly traditional Scottish/Irish, but also American folk music. I'm up in the area of the Taconic Mountains, which explains my handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 08:56 AM

No one is being called any names. Not by me anyway. I am attacking an idea as stupid, not a person. Though enough people seem to cherish this idea for one to see patterns.

Levying taxes under a democratic system is not slavery.
People who own property and/or make money under such a system need to realize just how much the system benefits them and how they are NOT separate from it.

To say otherwise is foolishness.

Tea Partiers, Ayn Rand followers and most Republicans need to be described as unpatriotic, short sighted and selfish when they are behaving and talking that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 09:49 AM

Taconicus- The bigot did not win. I was running in support of a Black friend, to split the 'white' vote. I had to appear on League of Women Voter TV shows twice. At the last minute a veteran black politician entered the primary and he beat the bigot by 400 votes. I got 700 votes, most of which we all assumed were taken from the bigot.... at least the winner thought so.
(I worked as a grocery checker to get thru college, and about the time I was half-way thru my Masters in Philosophy, money ran out and most philosophy majors were not finding jobs)

That 'classical liberal' moniker in new to me. I can't wrap my head around being for Bobby Kennedy and then for Reagan. I know the parties change..(Lincoln would have been a liberal today)... but what you list 'seem' to veer toward Libertarianism.
   The part that gives me the most pause is what is buried in the phrase 'limited government'. Since (as you may have noticed) I like deconstructing language to examine what the full implications of various formulations are, I often find quite inconsistent premises in folks full attitude toward 'limited government'. That is all-too-often just used as a "slogan" to mean "I don't want to be regulated and/or told what to do", no matter what the consequences.

Constitutional law, huh? Any comment on the "Citizens United" decision? Or on the precise interpretation of the 2nd amendment? (I have typed dozens of posts about those here.)


As I said, I play autoharp...and a little dulcimer and recorder. My wife is the real musician. She plays guitar and a zither and a McArthur Harp and sings almost anything.

Subject: Classical liberalism and libertarianism
From: Taconicus
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 11:00 AM

I reject deconstructionism as a fatally flawed and self-contradictory doctrine. If the meaning of the words we use is ultimately unknowable then conversation is meaningless and we might as well live in a might-makes-right world.

When I say limited government I'm not using it as a slogan for "I don't want to be regulated" as you suggest. I mean exactly what the phrase means to anyone familiar with political theory. Our Constitution gives us a government of limited, enumerated powers. If we can't agree on what those words mean, then we have no basis for conversation.

Assuming we can, and therefore do…

Yes, classical liberalism is very close to libertarianism. But libertarianism is a blanket term that includes the political philosophies of people who believe different things. Like you, most people today are not familiar with classical liberalism, and thus many people who call themselves libertarians (I used to call myself a "rational libertarian") are actually classical liberals. Other "libertarians" are not. A fair number could be called anarco-capitalistic libertarians, who are opposed to all government and believe everyone would be better off with a utopian, totally unregulated, absolutely free society, where private property rights are the basis on which to settle all human differences. That's a nice ideal for a perfect world, but unrealistic. However, it is fairly clear that libertarianism derived from classical liberalism, and there are many similarities. In fact, you will probably find few differences between "moderate libertarians" and those who recognize themselves to be classical liberals. The problem is, of course, that the word "liberal" has been co-opted by radical leftists, socialists, and progressives who have gradually taken over political parties that formerly were of a more classical liberal nature, so that now the word means something else entirely, and classical liberals don't recognize themselves (nor do others recognize them) as liberals at all.

Sure, we could talk about Citizens United or the Second Amendment if you like (you don't think Citizens United was a Second Amendment case, do you?) If you are open-minded then after I explained more about the Citizens United I think you would come away with a different opinion. However, it would be a few days before I had the time to do that. I should've worked over the weekend, but instead I frittered away a lot of it rambling on inconsequentially on this forum, probably mostly to avoid work I had to do.

If we do talk about one or the other, we should probably start a new thread about it.

I like listenting dulcimer music. Do you play hammer dulcimer?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 11:17 AM

Yes to new thread or even PMs... no, lap dulcimer.

No.. I don't mean Citizens United was a Second Amendment case... those are just 2 areas that bother me.

Later, then... get your work done. I have a festival to attend this Sat, it it doesn't snow. Need to organize--I'm helping lead a workshop on parodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 11:35 AM

One of the things today is the media always tries to pigeon hole people into categories when in fact it is impossible I think to do that. The term left or right or conservative or liberal. Most people are part of everything, it is all based on the issue at hand. We can all agree that the government has wasted a ton of money (conservative and liberal alike) we all can agree that the Iraq war had questionable motives for our initial involvement etc ... that list goes on and on. Each person may have a different view on how to fix it, and that is the area were logical and respectful debate should take place. As Kendall says over and over again, "I ain't learned nothing from people who always agree with me" .. however today it is a shouting match and it carries over to our elected official who should be setting the example. Difficult times call for smart minds and clear thinkers from all walks of life to help determine the cause and the cure. That is why shows that peddle division are not American I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 12:09 PM

"Tea Partiers, Ayn Rand followers and most Republicans need to be described as unpatriotic, short sighted and selfish when they are behaving and talking that way."

Socialists, Nancy Pelosi followers, and most Democrats need to be described as unpatriotic, short-sighted, and envious, when they are behaving and talking the way they do.

Gee this is fun...characterize the other side--don't discuss ideas.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"...shows that peddle division are not American I think."

Peddling division is as old as America, at least certainly as the two party system. Very American, I think. Only it's easier to disseminate our differences in the age of instant communication. The trick is to compromise effectively for the benefit of all, and that requires at least two willing parties. I think we seldom have any willing parties these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: pdq
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 12:21 PM

Here is what Steve Cohen, a Democrat in Congress, said about his enemies, the Republicans:

"'They say it's a government takeover of health care, a big lie just like Goebbels,' Cohen said. 'You say it enough, you repeat the lie, you repeat the lie, and eventually, people believe it.  Like blood libel.  That's the same kind of thing.'

'The Germans said enough about the Jews and people believed it--believed it and you have the Holocaust.  We heard on this floor, government takeover of health care.  Politifact said the biggest lie of 2010 was a government takeover of health care because there is no government takeover,' Cohen said."

This must be OK because all these Rabbis are talking about is Glenn Beck, not Steve Cohen.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 01:48 PM

Of course it's okay when the Democrats do it, pdq. Don't you know? Their shit don't stink!

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 02:00 PM

Except for the fact that Cohen didn't call anyone a Nazi, nor did he even USE the term Nazi.

Guess facts don't signift to Taco & Peedee & their ilk.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 02:21 PM

John
you are right that is the problem, it is a hell of a lot easier to throw rocks and blame then to try and fix difficult problems via discussion and action. Heck if we can just blame the "other" guy then no need to try and address problems and work like hell to solve them. Much easier to call the other guy a fascist or communist or something like that. You are so right

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 08:02 PM

Well, one thing is fir sure and that is the Repubs certainly know how to win/steal elections... Fir me the "Citizens United" decision and the Bush v. Gore decison are a toss up as to which is the worst piece of corrupt judicial activism... These guys make Earl Warren look like a Boy Scout...Both were way over the top and to outsiders looking in are seen as Banana Republic level corruption...

BTW, what ever happened to one-man-one-vote... When we allow corporations to have unlimited access to buying elections we are, in essence, giving more votes to Boss Hog... Lots more votes... That is reality since 90% of elections are won by the candidates who spends the most money... This has nothing to do with speech... Speech has a voice box... Corporation's don't... They are legal entities and do not have voice boxes or hearts or kidneys or....

BTW, I worked for Bobby Kennedy and had he not been gunned down he would not have been a Reagan supporter... Quite the opposite... He also would not be a Charles Krauthammer follower... Quite the opposite...

Finally, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it's most likely a duck... "Classical liberalism", as Tac has defined it, has nuthin' to do with the progressive movement... Quite the opposite...

Lastly, as for the 2nd amendment, I have lived among gun owners all my life, am a former member of the NRA and a current gun owner... With that said, I have never heard one single 2nd amendment rights person quote the 2nd amendment... Hey, it one friggin' sentence... Shouldn't be all that hard to learn... One sentence!!! BTW, when did a single person qualify as a "militia"??? Well, if we are going to talk about the 2nd amendment then lets take it the way it was written... I mean, we have all these Tea Partiers who want US to follow the Constitution, right... And they don't have a clue what's in it???

Fact is stranger than fiction...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 08:16 PM

The 2nd amendment DOES refer to A well regulated Militia...and although I think the age of militias is past, I doubt that what the current bunch has in mind will come close to "well regulated" .....that assumes, I would think, regulated BY the government to assist the regular army. I do **NOT** think the founders were planning on defining a way to oppose the Republic, no matter how the paranoids want to interpret it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 08:30 PM

Midge buzzings.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 08:30 PM

"[H]ad he [RFK] not been gunned down he would not have been a Reagan supporter... Quite the opposite... He also would not be a Charles Krauthammer follower..."

As you are so able to know what Kennedy's future epiphanies might have been, please send me the winners for Tuesday at Santa Anita.

"BTW, when did a single person qualify as a "militia"???" One soldier qualifies as a troop, so perhaps by analogy the same for militia.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 08:58 PM

Your definition of a "well regulated militia" is a stretch, John... Me thinks you need to, ahhhh. pee in this this plastic cup... *grin*

But I think I do understand Bobby Kennedy... I not only worked in his campaign but I also came close to workin' for his family as a teacher/groundskeeper/handy man but kept my other job... He most certainly would not have supported a government that was about less governance and that was what Reagan was all about... No, Bobby Kennedy, was a federalist and he strongly believed that the government should take an activist role in solving problems from poverty to urban to law enforcement to urban renewal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 09:24 PM

Bobert--At my age I have enough problem hitting the commode, let alone trying to fill a plastic cup. :>)

I did not define militia, I only suggested a possible answer to the question...altho' I know it (the question) was really meant to be rhetorical.

I well know what RFK believed in in the 60s. I also know what others, David Horowitz and Michael Medved come to mind, believed in those days. Life view changes are not unheard of.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 09:56 PM

Tell ya' what, John... If Bobby Kennedy had changed that much then I believe that one might make an argument that Hitler was thinkin' of convertin' to Judaism...

Guess again...

BTW, sittin' down on the commode improves yer accuracy... Yeah, I know all the sissy stuff but seein' as I clean my own bathroom, I sit... Saves alot of cleaning'...

BTW, part B... I will deny I ever admitted to sittin' down...

B;~)

Subject: Second Amendment
From: Taconicus
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 10:11 PM

It's kind of silly to talk about the Second Amendment in a thread about Glenn Beck and rabbis, isn't it? So I'll put my response in a new thread.