BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM

CNN just reporting tomahawk cruise missiles attacking Tripoli from US warships ... My God

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 04:06 PM

What would their objective be in doing that?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: BTNG
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 04:11 PM

their objective...simple...proving once again that the USA can't mind it's own business...and then wonder why the likes of 911 happened

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 04:42 PM

Sarkozy talking on Youtube


BBC News

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM

Live Newsfeed on the BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:06 PM

Just what we don't need, another illegal goddamn war.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM

It is being reported that 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles were launched at 20 targets, those being missile defense systems around Tripoli and Misurata.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM

110 cruise missles ... here we go again.

20th century solutions for 21st cenrury problems.

not all of those 110 missiles will make an accurate hit.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:30 PM

Well that's just tough isn't it. Gadaffi deserves a good biffing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:36 PM

Don't mind Gadaffi getting a good biffing, but tehre will probaly be a lot of innocent people killed.

I thought there was an air ban only.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: BTNG
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:37 PM

can a land invasion be far behind?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM

In order to enforce an air ban the air defense systems have to be taken out -- those were the target of the missile strikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:41 PM

Sad, yet again the policemen of the world go in guns blazing.

We will pay a high price for this, starting with £2.00 a litre at the pumps within two weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:41 PM

Won't be a land invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:45 PM

Smoke and mirrors at the cost of lives. Quackdaffy is a puppet and he dances well for the puppetmasters. While innocent people die. It's sickening.

Kendall... illegal war... worse than that IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:54 PM

illegal war???

It is the imposition of a no fly zone sanctioned by the UN security council, the Arab League and the Gulf Cooperation Council.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:02 PM

Yeah. Let the bastard who was involved in the Lockerbie bombing kill his own people. As least we'll have clean hands. Our consciences may suffer a bit, but wtf, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:03 PM

The last thing we need tonight is to become involved in another theatre of war. Ground troops will go in at some point.

Can you pay for a war on a credit card ???

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:08 PM

Bobad ....   "sanctioned by the UN security council, the Arab League and the Gulf Cooperation Council"

Now that this has been sanctioned ... who's next on the list ... Israel ??

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:17 PM

Proxy civil war launched by sympathizers of a foreign power. When they start losing the sponsoring power moves in.

The US is annexing the Sudetenland.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM

"Now that this has been sanctioned ... who's next on the list ... Israel ??"

I am somehow reminded of the non-interventionists who stood by clucking their tongues as the Jewish population of Europe was nearly exterminated.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:32 PM

clarification on my post above.

Now that that the U.S. has been sanctioned for the go ahead to revenge Gaddafi ... who says the mideast countries cannot have revenge on Israel.

revenge ... an evil human primitive action.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:53 PM

With this military intervention by the U.S., U.K. France in Libya, the whole situation in the mideast will not only get more complicated but the violence against humanity will certainly worsen.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: BTNG
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 07:09 PM

"I am somehow reminded of the non-interventionists who stood by clucking their tongues as the Jewish population of Europe was nearly exterminated"

Right, and what was it the Allied military powers did to alleviate the situation? The word nothing raises its ugly head. Anti-Semetism wasn't just a disease found amongst The Axis Powers.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: skipy
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 07:40 PM

This one is a "legal" war, bring it on! 110 is just a start.
Skipy
Full of the joys of spring.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 07:49 PM

Protesters have staged rallies around the world to voice their anger as the Israeli offensive in the Gaza Strip entered a third week.

Palestinian militants in Gaza have fired dozens of missiles into southern Israel in what appears to be their heaviest such barrage in two years.

The Pentagon said more than 100 Tomahawk cruise missiles from U.S. and British ships and submarines had been fired at 20 targets. The Western coalition is reportedly targeting Libyan air defences, especially around Tripoli and the west Libyan city of Misrata.

now ... whose right and whose wrong ... who is legal and who is illegal

yup ... "This one is a "legal" war, bring it on!" Sadly it is sounding more like ... This is all out war ... bring it on baby !

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 07:57 PM

btw ... me above ... "bring it on baby" ... I'm being sarcastic ....doing a General Buck Turgidson there ... sadly there are still too many wannabe (and real) General Buck Turgidson around these days.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:02 PM

Meanwhile we have a pretty-definitely-indigenous resistance movement crushed by an invading armed force from a neighbouring repressive dictatorship.

Is the US going to send their Tomahawks to Saudi Arabia in support of the Bahreini resistance? Are they fuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:06 PM

No, and probably the French Mirages and Canadian F-18s won't show up either.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:10 PM

Tripoli city not attacked, but military bases outside the city were dusted.

(Slow in getting the operations underway, but seem to be speeding up now that the Canadians are on the way).

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: skipy
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:11 PM

Revenge for 9/11 & 7/7, they begged for it, now they are getting it!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:14 PM

It doesn't matter what political party wins. The only thing that changes in the White House is the suit, and what guy is wearing it. It is about oil .

Decades come and decades go
and still our children die

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:20 PM

Yeah. Let the bastard who was involved in the Lockerbie bombing kill his own people."

Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't. You, and anyone else who thinks that Megrahi was guilty, seriously need to do some research. Had Megrahi gone to appeal instead of being released on compassionate grounds he would almost certainly have been pardoned. That path was denied him by our stupid legal system. And it's clear to anyone with a brain that Colonel Gadaffi "admitted" to Libya's involvement for purely cynical, expedient reasons, to get sanctions lifted and to get himself back into the bosom of the family of nations. The sooner the west, particularly the yanks, start to lose this lynch-mob mentality and start to look honestly at the facts of the case, the quicker the victims of Lockerbie will truly get justice. They certainly haven't got it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:32 PM

I don't think it is just about oil. It's the threat of a good example. Compare some health statistics, from WHO:

Libya

Saudi Arabia

Libya has half the per capita income of Saudi Arabia, and spends proportionately less of its GDP on health care, but has life expectancy a few years greater and substantially lower infant mortality.

That's what egalitarianism does. The US isn't going to allow it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:35 PM

Strange that the U.N. didn't launch this humanitarian mission years ago to defend Palestinians being murdered by the 51st state of America.

The current situation in Libya It is costing us approximately £17 million an hour.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:41 PM

Well said, Richie.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM

Funny...those missiles came from US and BRITISH ships and submarines. The first air flights French. Jets from Denmark and Canada are on their way to bases in Italy. Both Germany and the Arab League are supporting this UN-sanctioned action.

Personally, I think this whole thing is wrong. But don't go putting all the blame on the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:54 PM

Rap, I believe Germany abstained from voting on the Security Council resolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: MarkS
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 10:13 PM

Phil Ochs was right.

"We're the cops of the world."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 10:26 PM

I'm not going to touch this thread with a ten-foot pole.

See you all later.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: J-boy
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 10:45 PM

I'm so sick of this shit it makes me want to head out for the hills and hang with Jeremiah Johnson.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 01:03 AM

"You skin this and I'll go get you another."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 02:24 AM

"Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't"

First, you have no idea what I think.

Second, the bastard I was referring to was Gaddafi.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:27 AM

Still not sure why the UN has gone into Libya, yet remains deaf, blind and very dumb over Zimbabwe and Mugabe who's killed so many of his own people...

Isn't it weird though, that the countries we always seem to invade have something we want, whilst those who don't are allowed to continue their atrocities unabated...

The Causes of War are nearly as slippery as Oil itself.....


Sorry, People of Zimbabwe, we WOULD come and help, but er...we're fighting this Oil War at present, but don't panic, try to hold on, because we'll be there soon as we can..........


Meanwhile, back in the Middle East the soft mumblings of 'jihad' will soon rise to an almighty "****JIHAD!!!*****" as the Mighty Mullahs whip their people up into a foaming frenzy against the Wicked Witches & Wizards of the West.....

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:27 AM

At least two corrupt political systems hoping for a "Falklands bounce".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 04:20 AM

Considering how much Britain is in debt and how much cost cutting is happening here, I question the UK being involved at all,aprt from giving the OK.

Who will pay for this Mr Cameron?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:07 AM

And when the US, overextended and hated falls under inflation and the weight of the evil it does overseas and at home, how quickly will Americans turn on each other and point fingers, rather than demanding now, the we stop using war to suddunly bolster up our endangered ecconomy.
How strange that just as the US becomes unsure of its ability to maintain its position as the reserve currency, we begin to make war around the world - folks we dealt with for years and excused their evil are now in our gunsites... not every where mind you, but in the places which are questioning using the US dollar as their transactional currency.
It is time to put some leaders on trial for the crime of killing people in lands with which we have no declaired war. We talk of the UN giving this murder sanction, but what about individuals we are killing in Pakistan, kidnapping in Italy... this has become a lawless nation and the real Nevel Chamberlands are the ones who excuse the actions of this nation.
Germany called all its expantionist actions justified by past wrongs. We are a nation tottering on ecconomic disaster responding by war. Just as in the gulf of Tonkin, we can always find or make excuses to go to war.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:24 AM

March 19, 2003 - Bush / Iraq
March 19, 2011 - Obama / Libya

I believe some things don't Change

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Allan Conn
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:45 AM

"I believe Germany abstained from voting on the Security Council resolution."

Britain and 'unusually' France have been advocators of action. Germany like Russia, China, Brazil and India did abstain from the vote. No-one voted against it and of course wouldn't a Russian or Chinese no vote be a veto on the action itself? Germany seems disinclined to be involved directly but Chancellor Merkel has hinted at offers of help - one of which possibly would be deploying more troops in Afghanistan to free up some there. The African and Middle-Eastern countries on the council at the moment all voted for the resolution and the Arab League were calling for it. So whatever one thinks about the action itself I think it is a bit unfair if some use it as another opportunity for a round of American bashing

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Brian May
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:08 AM

Well, without being emotional.

In order to enforce THIS No-Fly Zone (which historically don't actually seem to do much good), you need to be able to enforce it.

In enforcing it then Air Superiority is essential. You do NOT have Air Superiority if your enforcing aircraft are susceptible to SAM attack/defence (depending on your viewpoint).

Libya has quite sophisticated ground to air defence which includes Command and Control assets in addition to the missiles and AAA - plus their ability to service, re-supply and repair them.

It is these that would be attacked (and the cynic in me thinks there may just be one or two other 'targets').

Above are facts. What makes me squirm are the photos of Tony Bliar and Gaddafi having a cuddle not too long ago. How we (the Brits) welcomed this pariah in from the cold. Most rank and file Brits found that embarrassing and distasteful - without the PANAM bomber stuff, that just made it worse.

Now we're attacking our 'good mate' because he's vowed to show no mercy to his (revolting, as he sees it) population.

Notice the consistency of the UN here. How quickly was this resolution of legality passed? Look how quickly they responded to Darfur (oops did I say that?).

The cynic in me thinks the only missing ingredient to the genocide 'we' so quickly reacted to in Darfur is OIL.

But I'm sure our public servants wouldn't be so shallow . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM

And the "rebels" shot down their own jet!! The lefties ought to be glad that the former oil workers in Libya no longer have the opportunity to earn UK tax free salaries there.

By the way, we don't care what goes on in Rhodesia - it's of no consequence!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM

You don't declare a cease fire or even a seven fire one minute and then carry on bombing your own people the next. Thank goodness we now have a properly schooled statesman - like leader in David Cameron and not the hideous bumbling Brown!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM

<>i>Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't"

First, you have no idea what I think.

Second, the bastard I was referring to was Gaddafi.

Yeah, well, I meant not him as well. I've spent many a long hour looking at this case. I'm completely convinced that Libya was not involved. Try doing the same. It's an eye-watering miscarriage of justice, and, as I said, the people who have not got justice (apart from Megrahi) are the families' victims.

But I will agree with you that Gaddafi is a bastard. Just not for that reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Arnie
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM

Difficult to know what to do for the best here. With memories of the Srebenica massacre still being invoked, it would be seen as a repeat performance if the UN stood back and let mad-dog Gaddafi's murderous bunch loose on Benghazi with almost a million citizens living there.He has promised to root out the rebels (ie: everyone)house by house. I suspect that the atrocities that would be visited on these civilians would evenutally prompt some form of UN action but it would be too late to save many innocent lives. I suppose the best hope is that the Libyan military depose Gaddafi rather than see their assets blown to bits over the next few weeks. Unfortunately we're told that the command structure of the Libyan army is dominated by Gaddafi loyalists and will protect their man to the bitter end.If boots on the ground are needed, then it's time for the Arab league to stand up and prove that they are not just a talking shop.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM

Sorry, badly-garbled post. Yertis again, proper job.

Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't"

First, you have no idea what I think.

Second, the bastard I was referring to was Gaddafi.

Yeah, well, I meant not him as well. I've spent many a long hour looking at this case. I'm completely convinced that Libya was not involved. Try doing the same. It's an eye-watering miscarriage of justice, and, as I said, the people who have not got justice (apart from Megrahi) are the families' victims.

But I will agree with you that Gaddafi is a bastard. Just not for that reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

I guess what bothers me the most is this idea that what is occurring in the Middle East and Northern Africa is probably going to be more regime change than meaningful change... I mean, even if some sore of bastardized democracy comes out of it I am fearful that the wealthy, like here in the US, will screw it up so that they continue to monopolize the wealth for themselves...

What we need more than the rearranging of deck chairs is a "revolution" in our thinking where greed and cheating and replaced with sharing and fairness... Until the US, which seems to be the model, cleans up it's act I don't see any fundamental changes occurring by booting one bad guy, putting in what folks might thing is a good guy only to see that good guy become the new bad guy...

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss... Or...

...("Animal Farm", George Orwell...)...

Same story...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:12 AM

...glass half empty??????

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:24 AM

I totally disagree with this action.
If there was consistency about american and european interference in other countries internal affairs, it might be more acceptable, but in truth the west does not care one iota about dictators killing their citizens, if they did they would have acted against Mugabe in Zimbabwe,The leader of the Yemen, Pinochet in Chile[ 30 YEARS OR SO AGO].
the west has tolerated gaddaffi for 40 years because it suited them, they do not care a fig about the people of libya

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:26 AM

well said Bobert ... 20 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

I agree

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:48 AM

Pity there wasn't such compassion shown to stop the Ethiopian civil war.
Can we expect the U.N.to launch humanitarian missions in other countries in an effort to save millions from being slaughtered by other lunatic dictators ?

As I recall, they didn't bomb China after the events in Tiananmen Square. Or pull North Korea over their dreadful human rights record.

So what is it a case of, China/North Korea not having oil, or would it be their massive firepower ?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:53 AM

A "no-fly zone" means no flying is allowed by the forces against which it is directed.

The first logical stage in enforcing this is proper monitoring to ensure that it is being observed.

Only if there is evidence that it is being ignored is it appropriate to send up aircraft to enforce it, and the matter of ground-missiles etc become relevant.

Otherwise it's a bit like telling bank robbers to come out with their hands up, and shooting them when they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:20 AM

"So what is it a case of, China/North Korea not having oil, or would it be their massive firepower ?"

It's both of those, Richie. Politics is a matter of sheer pragmatism, and pragmatism trumps principle. Regardless of their rhetoric (which is mostly designed to placate their own public and make themselves look noble), governments undertake military actions of choice only when they think they can:

1. afford to do it
2. and succeed at doing it

Sometimes they miscalculate on both of those accounts. Time will tell whether they have miscalculated when it comes to getting involved in the conflict in Lybia.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:50 AM

The mandate of resolution 1973 is a bit broader than just the imposition of a no fly zone, it also authorizes member states to "take all necessary measures to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM

Problem is George, when they miscalculate, hundereds of thousands die and the war mongers walk away to write their memoirs or take up lucrative jobs as "peace envoys".

The men women and children of Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya are the victims.

These people are seeing their children killed and mutilated for a lie
Democracy is not freedom, especially the type of democracy granted to to us.....and they can look forward to something even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM

How do you define a civilian, insurgent, rebel, terrorist bobad?

Weasel words from weasel governments!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 12:04 PM

The Arab League has criticised the military strikes on Libya.
The Arab League said that Arabs did not want military strikes by Western powers. Only Qatar has openly supported the campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

Here we go again...

If the US and it's buddies are so interested in regime change why is it that they kill everyone else first before getting to the bad guy???

Two week before the Iraq invasion Dan Rather got to sit across the table from Saddam... If Dan Rather could get that close, don't tell me that a Special Op couldn't...

Same with Gadaffi... If yer gonna kill him anyway why not just do itr and leave everyone else alive???

(But, Boberdz... We don't approve of assassination...)

Oh??? But blowing up other folks is okay???

Give me a break...

Shoot the sumabich and call it a day...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: JHW
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM

Killing one bastard in Iraq seemed like a good idea but the place turned out to be full of them

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 01:14 PM

Charlie, don't want to get your feet dirty?


(Neither do I).

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

1. If the term "civilian" is to have any meaning in the internal Libyan conflict it can only refer to someone who is not an insurrectionist. Compare the IRA. Notice the word "Army" in their name?

2. Gadaffi's threats (at least as far as I read) were only against those not yielding to his advancing troops.

3. The troops were legitimately deployed against rebels - whichever side you prefer, and I probably prefer the rebels but preference is not the point, legitimacy is).

4. That deployment was internal to Libya and posed no threat to any external politic.

5.   For the UN to assume jurisdiction over such an internal matter is iffy at best. It wasn't a threatened genocide and the UN has ignored enough genocides over the years to constitute precedent.

6. I have not seen (that doesn't mean there isn't any, just that I haven't seen it) any threat of civilian (as I defined it) massacre.

7. So there was no pressing reason to enforce a "no-fly" zone anyway (other than a desire to interfere).

8. Gadaffi's missile sites around Tripoli were not apt for use for any massacre of civilians in Benghazi.

9. They had not been deployed against any foreign aircraft or other targets.

10. Thus the "Allied" assault can only have been a pre-emptive strike (not legitimate under international law) on an internal mission in a sovereign state (not legitimate under international law) as a matter of interference in internal politics (not legitimate under international law).

11. The position might have been different if there were a declared war or steps by Libya to launch an undeclared war - but there is no sign of any such.

This is colonialist aggression.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:00 PM

As I was turning off my computer last night, I took one quick peek at Mudcat and saw this thread. My first reaction was to want to lead an armed rebellion on Washington, D. C.

But wanting to find out a few more facts, I then turned on the radio to my local NPR affiliate. I was informed that the air attack on Libya just under way had been ordered by the UNITED NATIONS, was being spearheaded by FRENCH fighter jets, and the Tomahawk missiles were being fired from BRITISH submarines offshore. There were AMERICAN F-18 fighter jets involved, along with Harrier jump-jets, which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) are BRITISH, going after the Libyan air defense system.

And where did I hear this spurious and slanderous report trying whitewash the roll of yet another heinous American grab for oil by trying to implicate other counties, such as Britain and France? Obviously, from that well-known voice of the American Right Wing—National Public Radio.

Nope. What I was listening to was NPR's regular midnight news feed from—

(Steady, now. . . .)

The BBC.

The only exercise some people around here seem to get is instantaneous knee-jerk reactions.

You might learn a few facts before gleefully piling on.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM

Obviously, this is not a country that does polls or allows polls to be done, but has anyone any idea what percentage of Libyans actually support his leadership. I imagine the rebels are in the minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

I am wondering the same myself, Richie. The only reference I've heard is from an analyst on AlJazeera who said that the vast majority are opposed to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:36 PM

Yeah, would have been nice if there has been polls in Iraq prior to Bush ordering up the invasion... Yeah, ever hear where the cure is worse than the disease???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM

The Libyan armed forces have just announced a cease fire...again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

Doesn't you heart yearn for the good old days when John Wayne and William Bendix would have polished these bastards off in five minutes? Just a few B feature actors for the Duke to shove around, whip into shape and grow a few sweaty whiskers for Bendix's death scene. Then maybe a walk-on at the end for Henry Fonda to give out a Congressional Medal of honour to the Duke and a few purple hearts to the B actors.

Those cats knew how to have a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:43 PM

Al, John Wayne a Draft Dodger.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:45 PM

Especially John Wayne, who took on the Nazis in hand-to-hand combat while never leaving Hollywood for the entire 1940's.

Classic American hero.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 04:53 PM

Don't ye all go badmouthin The Duke. He was one of the best cheerleaders ever in the good ol US of A eh!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM

Cheerleader? Then there's The Great Prestigitator- Ronnie RayGun- who is responsible for the crapper that the U.S. is currently in. Ably assisted by The Duke.

Both spinners of delusional fantasy. And the Boobocracy ate 'em up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:29 PM

Now yer talkin showman... barker. What is gonna take to get you to buy this war now? If you walk out that door the boss may not give you near as good a deal when you come back.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM

SUCH A DEAL!

No thanks, I'll pass.

Had enuf idiotic, pointless and ultimately self-defeating wars for ten lifetimes.

But thanks for asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:20 PM

"How do you define a civilian, insurgent, rebel, terrorist bobad?"

When tanks and heavy artillery have surrounded and are shelling cities I consider that an attack on civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:20 PM

Oh, didn't Israel do that in both Gaza and the Lebanon - specifically civilian positions? And the Allies to Berlin in WWII?

How do you invade a city held by rebels without shelling enemy positions?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:35 PM

"proxy civil war launched by sympathizers of a foreign power" ...."Sudetenland"

Gee, the poster has actually read some history.   The fans go wild.

Now perhaps he can find some actual evidence that the Libyan uprising was "launched by sympathizers of a foreign power".

But I don't think we should hold our collective breath waiting for said evidence.

Another sterling example of folkie strategic thinking.   No wonder folkies are so admired for this in the wider world.

Nobody, however can say that Mudcat conspiracy theories are not entertaining--as long as logic, sense, and facts are not of primary concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 08:43 PM

GUEST,bankley;
"March 19, 2003 - Bush / Iraq
March 19, 2011 - Obama / Libya
I believe some things don't Change"

Blankley, THANK YOU for bringing this post to the attention of our Mudcat partisan, devotees!!! You are scratching the surface, of what is hidden, behind the charade, and facade, of what a bunch of these people can't see, because of their subscription to which ever, the most persuasive propaganda, which has been 'tailor-made' to their pre-programming!! It has blinded a lot of folks out there, let alone on here!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:28 PM

"But I don't think we should hold our collective breath waiting for said evidence."

You shouldn't hold your breath waiting for ANY future post, Ron, either pro or con. Your body needs oxygen, and it is uncertain when the next post from any other person might come. You could fall unconscious before it did or even die! Therefore I suggest that you stop making remarks about us all "holding our collective breath waiting" for this or that, as it wouldn't be a practical idea at all, and it serves no useful rhetorical purpose either in the sense of advancing any form of rational argument. ;-)

If you have been holding your breath waiting for people you disagree with to either offer evidence or say something to change your mind, I suggest that you discontinue that unhealthy practice ASAP!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:06 PM

Let's just see what develops--as I say, Mudcat conspiracy theories are at least entertaining--with the caveat I mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:23 PM

What makes this into a nighmare. Bloody Cameron pretending he knows what he's doing. Nobody can even guess how this is going to turn out.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:51 PM

I'm just waiting for Bobert and Amos to pop up and do some Obama cheer-leading. At least Don Firth has expressed some disappointment, with the 'Calamitter in Chief'.....actually, I don't entirely blame Obama for this, but I would blame him for not leveling with the American people, and reveal what's really going on,* and just who is pulling the strings! I think that if he did, and could prove it, both sides would rally behind him, after a bit of skepticism. I think the involved American public are tired of having their intelligence insulted, and treated like a bunch of nobodies, as if we don't matter!

GfS

*Unless he is only responding to Muslim uprisings, and then and only when they are really in trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:08 PM

"...pulling the strings...."   

Ah yes, perhaps the dark conspiracy theorist's favorite phrase.

Whenever there's any mystery, "they" must be behind it.

It's rather amazing how popular that phrase--and that theory--is across the whole political spectrum--with anybody who doesn't bother to do research.

I'll admit it certainly is a great excuse for laziness--and of course lazy people can be found across the whole political spectrum.

So its popularity should really not be surprising, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:59 PM

Why is action being taken by the West in Libya, specifically? Out of altruism only? I doubt that. There must be a number of serious pragmatic reasons for doing so, I would think. I don't call that a "conspiracy", I call it Realpolitik, as always. Countries make moves that they think will be of benefit to themselves in the long run. Various objectives are being sought. One of them might be just to get rid of Gadhafi, because he's a loose cannon and a problem for just about everyone. I could understand the West having such an objective...but that's not altruism. That's practical politics with an objective that makes sense.

Why did the West choose to side with the Libyan rebels? Altruism? Well, that's why the general populace in the West (including me and Ron Davies) sympathizes with the rebels...but I very much doubt that it's the reason why several western powers are intervening in the crisis. I think they see an opportunity...but for what, I couldn't say.

I have no theories to propound about it..."conspiracy" or otherwise. I just think it's another round of power politics, that's all. Gadhafi appears to have worn out his welcome with his former friends in the West, so he'll probably be replaced in awhile by someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: BTNG
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:04 AM

why is it that right wing loonies like bonzo_3_legs think that just because one doesn't support David Cameron and that political opportunist Nick Clegg, one MUST have voted Labour? no logic there. But when did the right wing ever allow logic to get in the way of their agenda?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:29 AM

The only logic most people will tolerate is that which supports their chosen position. They ignore all other forms of logic. This is equally true of most people on both the Right and the Left (though my sympathies lie almost entirely with the Left).

What I'm saying is: I recognize the bullshit, hypocrisy, and self-serving nonsense that is so common on both sides of the table....but I like the original philosophical bent of the Left far better in most respects.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:40 AM

Little Hawk: "Why is action being taken by the West in Libya, specifically?...."

Possibly the oil hub....but, in all honesty, I'm not exactly sure of all the reasons..but the big terminals are in the east. I've been more focused these days on the music. Just did a two night concert gig, and wrote some stuff for a new female vocalist to try. It went over great! ..even tears in the audience. Great song!..and she pulled it off(a gambled for surprise).

Ron Davies: ""...pulling the strings...."   

Ah yes, perhaps the dark conspiracy theorist's favorite phrase."

OKAY, you tell me how someone can be so negligent, and rule against the will of the people, AND the Constitution, without getting directives from elsewhere. I was trying to give him credit for not being so blatantly incompetent..but, you can have it your way, too....I could buy that.....but something here doesn't quite wash, as being up and above board, wouldn't you say??...unless, of course you are one of those people who support wars where we don't belong.(?)
In that case, I would think you supported both Bush's excursions into the mid-east...or Reagan's venture, in bombing Qaddafi...maybe you were. That's your prerogative.
But it ain't no 'conspiracy theory'....its just the way it is.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:04 AM

All the Obama "liberals" seem to have mysteriously vanished.....have they been incarcerated by the forces of darkness?

Or is there another reason?

Conspiracy lives!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:13 AM

Naw, Now that he's been in office long enough for the dummies to finally get what he's about, I think they're too embarrassed; his supporters are afraid of being found out as being lamer than polka-dotted shit balls....with pansies growing out of them!..He is just getting to hard to defend, with a straight face!
They just didn't listen, when I was calling him Oblabbo, during the elections. We don't have leaders here in America...we've got celebrity salesmen.....and bogus crusaders!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:28 AM

One thing that has struck me about this is how the UN resolution hasn't learnt anything from the way the remarkable way in which these rebellions were organised and has a concept of war that is still frankly 19th century. For example, I am sure it must be possible to jam or disable the means to make television or radio broadcasts which would greatly reduce the propaganda advantage Gaddafi has; but I am not at all clear that is authorised under the resolution

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:35 AM

Good morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:35 AM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:54 AM

Get real DMcG. Aircaft couldn't hit the enemy in WW2 and used to hit our guys despite the fact that our tanks had a big white star on top. In the Falklands, they coudn't disable something as big as a bloody airfield.

Nowadays airplanes go even faster. they're bound to miss their targets and kill innocent folk.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 05:53 AM

I think I am real enough, Alan. I did not say jamming was an alternative to other action, did I? I think it is the kind of action we should undertake *in addition* to other means. Yet the phrasing of the resolution is addressed squarely at troops and military facilities, so the allies would need to be trying to find a way of justifying attacking propaganda sources on the grounds of their military significance. Our experience of the significance of propaganda in almost 20th century wars is such I feel it should have been included more directly.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:18 AM

Getting sucked into this thread again!

Oh, I'm sure the European nations as well as the United States and the Arab League are all piling on Gaddafi and his family for the primary reason of restoring stability in the world oil market, and some modicum of concern for the humanitarian situation. It is a popular cause worldwide, evidently. Everything works well in this case for intervention, although it came at the last possible moment.

Note that the Republicans in the States have now shifted their critique from "intervention was needed yesterday" to "too much intervention too late."

The Arab League after a few stumbles seems to be back on board this morning. But real military support from Arab nations is needed fast to maintain popular support for the Coalition effort.

But who made the cut for the "Final Four"?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM

The Canadian CF-18's are now in Italy. They are getting an oil change and having the winter tires changed for all seasons (I hear they got a good deal on some Perelli's) . They should be ready to help in kicking some ass by the end of this week.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:48 AM

As long as they make sure that the son goes too, the younger Gaddafi looks dangerous to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 11:07 AM

No he's making sure that his record collection is not bombed, or whatever it is that he collects!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM

GfS ... "We don't have leaders here in America...we've got celebrity salesmen"

and the Commander in Chief, he's got style .... initiates a military strike ... immediately gets on a plane and flies down to Rio, ok it was actually Brazilia.

I can see him there now, sitting on a patio with Dilma Vana Rousseff .... Obama in a Hawiian shirt, a pair of Oakley's on, a caprahini in one hand, his blackberry in the other ... texting with the war room back home, and at the same time praising to Dilma on how Brazil is a model for peace and democracy.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM

Argument A: The West lusts for oil, so it lets Gaddafi kill the rebels to make sure he keeps selling it to us.

Argument B: The West lusts for oil, so it kills Libyans to make sure we get it.

Fact: The West doesn't *steal* oil from OPEC. It *buys* it. OPEC wants our money. And if you haven't noticed, OPEC charges as much as it can get. That would be true no matter who rules in Tripoli. (Unless, of course, it turns out the rebels are big fans of         al-Qaeda.)

So if the West is so fiendish, why not do nothing or even help Gaddafi smash the rebels to let the oil flow? Doing nothing, or helping the G-ster, would also tell our other oil buddies to crack down harder on their own dissidents. (And you know they want to.)

But we're bombing Gaddafi. So any oil conspiracy would be far, far more diabolical than anyone can imagine.

Is it to divert us from global warming? The economy? Justin Bieber?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:02 PM

DMcG: "One thing that has struck me about this is how the UN resolution hasn't learnt anything from the way the remarkable way in which these rebellions were organised and has a concept of war that is still frankly 19th century."

What's just as bad, is that WE (the Allies), are not learning, either. We are getting entangled, and getting bogged down all over the Mideast, sorta like Tar Baby and the brier patch, and very much like the Roman Empire, who got spread all over the place, in a series of small wars, which was the final blow, to them(along with their decaying morals). We, like the Romans, cannot afford to be enforcing 'peace'(?), in every place we have trading interests, and the Muslims in the Mideast, with their goals, may have created 'quicksand' to lure us into, much like a repeat of Rome.
Also, I'm sure we have to repay the Europeans, for their participation, in the Iraq, Pakistan, Afghan (etc) excursions.

But, alas, we shortsighted, short memory span, Yanks can get all whooped up emotionally about the politics of it, and all too often forget the common sense of it, as long as the 'news' media can keep us 'entertained with it'.

History teaches us, that man never learns from history!!!

Bush had his, Obama has got his..but were either of them, really in charge?

Meanwhile, Israel is getting fired on by missiles. When they finally get pissed off enough, without the U.S. to restrain them, this whole thing could EASILY ignite to a full blown, massive human catastrophe, that could spread everywhere!(Depending on whom is going to ally with whom).

I very much question the wisdom of this, and other Mideast excursions into the brier patch, to visit the Tar Baby, (or 'Oil Baby', if you will).
If we need oil, get it from here, while transforming our energy sources.....but the overly left, get all pissy about drilling....but love their gas, and plastic etc.   

Charley Noble: "Note that the Republicans in the States have now shifted their critique from "intervention was needed yesterday" to "too much intervention too late."

I just heard a person who worked in the Reagan White House, express some of the same concerns that I just posted....she ended with "I don't know about this one, its all too fuzzy, to know what's really going on."

I agree with her, coupled with the fact, that this Administration is acting like, the people here don't matter, nor need to be told, nor would support an 'up and above board' effort.

This is not good.........but then, ..I read the Book, and have a clue how it ends! So far, its accuracy is more astounding than I even previously imagined!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:51 PM

I wonder why our leaders are not chosen from Mudcat!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM

Poster is apparently akenaton

---

Apparently planes are attacking Gadaffi's troops as they retreat.

So much for the UN resolution!

Somebody up above said, "its like telling them to come out with their hands up.....then shooting them!

I hate war, but this type of "war game" played by computer makes me feel even more sick.

If your going to massacre people, at least you should be forced to smell the burning flesh and hear the screams.

I'm startin' to get very fuckin' angry!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 01:41 PM

You'll get even more pissed off when your post is deleted because ya didn't use your usual moniker. fyi

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 02:25 PM

As I said elsewhere, Ake, give us your evidence that Gadhafi is a reasonable person. Why exactly should we let him go back to wiping out his opposition--which has appealed to us over and over for assistance?

So sorry there is not enough "smell of burning flesh" to suit you.   I suspect Mr. Gadhafi would have been willing to give you all you need.

Perhaps you would like to seek professional help for your obsession.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM

And as I just said on another thread, Ron...

"I haven't heard of anyone who thinks Gadhafi is a "reasonable person" (except Gadhafi himself, possibly), so the question you asked of Ake in that respect is just another pointless snide remark uttered with no other purpose than to sneer in Ake's general direction and imply that he's a halfwit or a simpleton."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 05:15 PM

Thanks LH ......and Brucie :0)

Ron of course I don't think Gadaffi is a "reasonable" person, but on the other hand I dont think any "reasonable" person can successfully govern a country such as Iraq, Afghanistan, or even Libya, as a "liberal democracy".
I was giving our new Prime minister Cameron the benefit of the doubt, as he and his government have inherited a huge albatross in the form of the national financial deficite, but his actions over this issue have made me think again.

He came across as a pompous, smug, well fed, public schoolboy, parroting rhetoric straight out of some upper class boy's war comic.

Stupid, uncaring and blind to the real issues involved in the attack on a sovereign nation.

I'm sorry to say so Ron, but I feel your simplistic take on this does no credit to someone who appears to have an above average grasp of political machinations

If you would spend less time verbally abusing Little Hawk and instead attempt to learn a fraction of his insight, you would perhaps find yourself a wiser, more interesting and better liked

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 05:54 PM

Years since ive been on here, but i have to say, its a sad state of affairs when military force is used, and i hope to whatever god there could possibly be that one day we wont ever have to do it again, but I wouldnt want to live in a world where we had left Gadaffi's forces to enter Benghazi and carry out his threats, the no fly zone has to be enforced with force, we have learnt from Bosnia where allied pilots got a ringside view of 8000 men & boys being executed and couldnt do a damn thing about it. And yes, there other problems in the world and other dictators, and to be honest i dont have the answers, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt help out with this one.
All these people want is to walk into a polling booth and change theyre government with a pen, its a right that we take for granted and sadly too few people choose to participate in. Every democracy that exists has cost bloodshed, when the fighting is over its remembered, its not taken for granted, it will be mourned for many years, but its the one thing that makes our freedom and democracy worth having. I wish the Lybian people well, and hope the armed forces realise they are in a fight they cannot and will not win and turn on Gadaffi A.S.A.P.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM

Steve....If Gadaffi's aim was to "massacre civilians" he could have accomplished that in two minutes by a rocket attack on areas with high density populations.......and what would Col Gadaffi have to gain from such a course of action?

The targets are plainly the "rebels", "insurgents", "Terrorists", "freedom fighters", take your pick   they were with us in Iraq and are with us still.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:22 PM

On the one hand, I think Gadhafi provoked the whole thing in the first place by violently suppressing demonstrators. On the other hand, he is now doing what any sovereign state does in the face of a rebellion, and sending out the police and military to crush the rebels. Every state does that in the face of armed rebellion.

I do not sympathize with Gadhafi in any way, and I hope he is removed from power, but I can understand why foreign intervention is viewed by some as an illegal intervention into the domestic affairs of Libya.

So there's reason present on both sides of this argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:52 PM

@ Akenaton, isnt that exactly what he was doing, shelling Benghazi and other cities indiscriminately, yeh ok, his beef was with the rebels, but dont think for one minute he would have stopped the fighting / shelling to let the local school children cross the road!!! he threatend to go from house to house hunting people down, put yourself in a postion where you could do something, would you really take the risk, and why is it that everyone seems to think Gadaffi is a man of honour and his word is the truth, while our governments are all blundering liars thats only desire is global domination, personally i would believe the British/French and U.S governments over a tinpot dictator like Gadaffi anytime, i know theyre not perfect, but theyre a long way from that shower of SH*T.
As i said in my prior post, its a sad day when you have to take the gloves off and actually do something nasty, but that time had come, the "Massacre at Benghazi 2011" never happened, and thats to our credit!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:10 PM

The ""rebels", "insurgents", "Terrorists", "freedom fighters"" are ordinary citizens who started out peacefully protesting against their oppression and for more democratic representation until they were brutally put upon by a brutal dictator and were forced to take up arms to defend themselves against his brutality.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:23 PM

Thats a very good point Bobad, the truth is, in our cozy western democracies, we behave like spoilt children, we have no concept of what its like to live under such a regime, this woolly liberal line that pussyfoots about and harps on about the injustices in the world while not making any decisions to actually do anything is pathetic, the truth is, sometimes, its unpalateable, but you have to get your hands dirty and yes, sometimes bloody for the greater and long term good.
I knew i would get a decent debate here at Mudcat!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:25 PM

Or, they could, in accordance with local law, have stopped.

FFS, if rebels rebel, at least they might not winge about it.   They rebel - they might win. Or they might lose. Those are matters of internal politics and nothing to do with anyone else. Indeed, I am starting to suspect that the UN resolution was ultra vires in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:40 PM

So are the critics of the West's response at least all willing to admit that the Libyan uprising started as completely a home-grown action?

So we won't hear any more tripe about a "Sudetenland" parallel or "colonialism" as the origin of the conflict?

That at least would be a step towards wisdom.

One step at a time seems best to explain the situation to some posters

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:31 PM

akenaton-

The targets are plainly the "rebels", "insurgents", "Terrorists", "freedom fighters", take your pick   they were with us in Iraq and are with us still.

No, it's not at all clear to me what the range of rebels includes but I think you missed a few students, intellectuals, professionals, military men, and politicians.

The only thing that was simple in this situation is that there was going to be a bloodbath in Benghazi, not to mention in a few other towns that the rebels held. And do you really believe that Gadhaffi's troops would have slaughtered only the "real rebels" and not their families, and not anyone else who happened to be in their neighborhood?

What won't work in this situation is if the Coalition manages to kill more civilians in implementing UN resolution 1973 than Gadahaffi would have. Thats one of the things that stank about "our" liberation of Iraq.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:44 PM

I haven't read most of this thread. But, the simple fact that Quackdaffy has employed mercenaries from foreign countries disturbs me greatly... why would such be necessary?

Now, the fact that he has rubbed shoulders in photo ops with many, including Blair shortly after (during?) that little Saddam affair, also disturbs me, but, as I said, I haven't read most of this thread.

BP was just setting up operations in Libya. Any connections?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM

These rebels are mostly made up of the young (in there teens and very early twenties) .... this was first evident with the protesters in Egypt and we continue to see in the rest of these mideast countries where upheaval is happening.

What were are seeing is a revolution against the old status quo whatever it may be in the mideast... a dawning of of the 21st century for the mideast. These rebels certainly are not going to embrace the western world and it's 2oth century state of mind and it's form of 2oth century governance. That is why we should not get involved militarily. What the western world is expecting, is not what it will turn out to be. Yes this is a new beginning in the mideast but we will be left behind until the young in the western world revolts against the old status quo here.

The revolution of the young against the old regimes ... the 'change' has to come, for better or worse.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 11:11 PM

I should add ... and why is this revolution of the young happening in the mideast, and not say Europe, or latin America ... it's because the mideast is more vulnerable to change, it has to change ... they have been manipulated by the Western World, they have had corrupt dictators running their countries and they have been the victims of war and upheaval for the last century ... they having nothing to lose to bring them into this brave new century.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:58 AM

This was a huge mistake, the way we got involved!!..and time will show it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 03:40 AM

Well said No 6.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:12 AM

If you are going to enforce a "No-Fly" Zone then YOU have to create the conditions such that YOUR aircraft can fly over it without risk of attack. Hence the stikes by French Aircraft and US and British Tomahawk missiles.

"Better the Arabs do it tolerably than that you do it perfectly. It is their war, and you are to help them, not to win it for them." - T.E.Lawrence

And that is exactly what you are seeing here today in Libya. The uprising in Libya has got nothing whatsoever to do with a sudden yearning for democracy in whatever form it might present itself. What you are seeing bubbling over in Libya today is a tribal conflict nothing more, nothing less. The "people of Libya", or at least the people of certain tribal groups in Libya (At least three of such tribal groups) are attempting to rid themselves of the current Kleptocracy that has been ruling the country for 40 years. If anyone thinks that this is anything new for Libya then think again, such uprisings have happened in the past and were put down mercilessly - the policy and practice of "collective punishment" is enshrined in Libyan law (Something introduced by Col. Gaddafi), so please do not worry yourselves about who the "Rebels"; "Insurgents"; "Combatants" are, that simply does not matter to Gaddafi as he has shown in the past. We did not hear about things then because these uprisings happened in Libya's Pariah years when Libya and the regime of Gaddafi were isolated and shunned, nobody reported it. Nobody would have reported this one now had it not been for GWB acting as he did in March 2003. The fate of Iraq and Saddam Hussein registered with Muammar Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi and it shook him rigid because Libya appeared amongst the US Intelligence communities list of potential candidates to play the role of "Rogue State".

As far as the armed forces of the Arab countries go it should be remebered that they are there not to protect the country from an external aggressor, they exist to protect the ruling caste.

- Had the Army in Tunisia turned against the people and started slaughtering them - the UN would have acted

- Had the Army in Egypt turned against the people and started slaughtering them - the UN would have acted

- The Army in Libya plus a whole rake of mecenaries provided by Gaddafi's African friends were ordered out to slaughter the people and - THE UN HAVE ACTED - and they have acted on the specific requests of the Arab League and the The Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf (Commonly known as the Gulf Cooperation Council the GCC)

In Bahrain the situation is quite different, and again it has nothing whatsoever to do with the events in Tunisia or Egypt, nothing whatsoever to do with human rights or democracy, it is a plain and simple attempt at destabilising a small country by a foreign power - Iran.

Bahrain has a total population of some 1,234,000 people of whom 666,172 are not citizens of Bahrain at all, they are "guest foreign workers". The indigenous population of Bahrain are Sunni Arabs, most of the "guest foreign workers" are Shia Arabs. The largest single ethnic group within this collection of "guest foreign workers" are the Indians some of whom have been living and trading in Bahrain for decades. The Shia Arabs who are "protesting" have been attacking the Indians and trying to drive them out of Bahrain. The rulers of Bahrain appealed for help and assistance from the GCC and got it. Iran has long held claims of sovereignty on Bahrain which has prompted moves to destabilise the country ever since it gained its independence.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:53 AM

Rest assured that, in the current jargon, all is:
1 Clear
2 Quite Clear
3 Very Clear
4 Completely Clear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:11 AM

Well, they said on BBC News this morning that the UN was in no way trying to bring about a regime change...

So, what the fook are we doing out there then?

Of COURSE that's what they're trying to do. They want the Crazy One out because they're all shitting in their designer suits that he'll stop the oil coming over, or make it impossibly expensive...

That's why they've bowed and kowtowed to him for all these decades, sold him Arms, given him this and that..

He's nuts..but...he's not as nutty as our Leaders, who, despite being leaders of bankrupt countries are now spending zillions on bombing Tripoli...WTF is that about?????

At this rate we'll ALL be owned by the IMF, that's if we're not already, of course..

You know that great song...'Say Goodbye to Oil' by Pete Morton? Well, I suggest we start teaching it in school assemblies...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:57 AM

Yanks just admitted they lost a F-15E Strike Eagle, it came down near the rebel-held city of Benghazi just after midnight local time.

The US military said the jet suffered mechanical failure (bullshit) and was not shot down by enemy fire. Both crew members ejected, were recovered and are safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:00 AM

From the Beeb. UK Armed Forces minister Nick Harvey said it was unclear how long the mission would take, adding that using ground troops "could not be ruled out".

He told the BBC: "We don't know how long this is going to go on for, we don't know for example... whether this might arrive at a state of stalemate or whether in a sense it will be possible to degrade his military capability relatively fast.

"Ask me again in a week, perhaps we'll have a clearer picture of what sort of scale of campaign we're in for."

What resolution was it, then? Remind me...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:10 AM

Suppose the Libyan rebels win and the man who now rules Libya is finally brought to trial. How's he gonna be charged?


Gadhafi? Gaddafi? Khaddafy? Kaddafi? Qaddafi?


Considering that the mother fucker should have been shot years ago, I worry he will get off on a technicality.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:45 AM

Excellent point, 999!

I was wondering the same thing.

At least the names rhyme, and a great song may yet spring from the depths of this thread!

I'm not convinced that Teribus is correct in his assessment of Libya above but I'll have to do some homework to find out. Certainly the newspapers and other media reports are little assistance.

The more disciplined elements within the rebel armed forces do not appear eager to pursue the retreating Gadhafi forces. Other volunteers rebels pursued them to the outskirts of Ajdabiya and then wisely retreated when they were met by concentrated gunfire and rockets.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:56 AM

Well even Ronnie Raygun condemned the deliberate targeting for assassination of national leaders, so I guess that puts you two somewhat to the right of Genghis Khan. Of course, the CIA will be working on something covert, and some White House intern will be busy researching all the euphemisms for "assassination."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:02 AM

Assassination my ass. Shoot the arsehole!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:03 AM

Which would be "assassination." Do you need a reference?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:06 AM

Assassination my ass. Shoot the arsehole!

And how peculiarly transatlantic of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM

'Which would be "assassination." Do you need a reference?'

Not as much as you need manners.

It would be murder, mercy killing, getting even for his own past murders, etc. But a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, and a chrysanthemum by any other name would be easier to spell.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:23 AM

As I said earlier, it would be better for humanity if certain individuals were killed.   Hitler was one.   Gadhafi is another.

Any argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:25 AM

Not from me, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM

It would be too good for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:45 AM

hey .... let's get Khadafi, and let's get Kissinger and we can have a 2 for 1 trial ... whew, what a trial that would be.

On second though, let's forget it .... way too much of the real truth could be exposed.

Just the thought of that can make one understand why these revolts are happening in the mideast.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:21 AM

biLL: "hey .... let's get Khadafi, and let's get Kissinger and we can have a 2 for 1 trial ... whew, what a trial that would be."

I'd go for that!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:23 AM

Assassination?

Iraq - Would it have done any good to assassinate Saddam Hussein?

Nope he would have been replaced by one or other of his sons who were ten times worse and a damn sight more unstable. At the time the power was held by a single tribal group that had entrenched itself over the period of two decades. The Saddam Fedaheen; the Special Republican Guard and the Republican Guard were all formed, manned and equipped to keep Saddam Hussein and his family in power by terror and oppression.

Libya - Would it do any good to assassinate Muammar Gaddafi?

Nope he would be immediately replaced by his son Saif backed solidly by their tribe and their allies.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:28 AM

THe first US plane has crashed in libya. The military was qucik to point out it was not shot down but instead suffered mechanaical failure.

JEEZZ I would have thought they would have loved to say they were shot down instead of admitting that someone filled the tank with diesel instead of kerosene and put wiper fluid where the transmission fluid should go.

Being a surviving hero seems better than being seen as a flaming idiot

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:43 AM

Oh well, listened to a wonderful Sarah McLachlan gig from 3 March at lunchtime today!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:26 AM

Evidently one of the US pilots was lifted our by copter.

The other was warmly welcomed by villagers and is probably lifted out by now as well.

If I only believed in hell, it would be nice to think of Gadhafi and his sons roasting there slowly. Anyone have any marshmallows?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:32 AM

Yeah, I'll give you an argument, lynch mob. We live in countries that purport to abide by the rule of law. No matter how vile a criminal may be he's entitled to due process. If you spout on at home about democracy and justice, then mete out ugly brutality in someone else's country, you are absolutely no better than they are. What happened to do as you would be done by?

Not as much as you need manners...

This from a man preaching assassination on a forum! Ha bloody ha.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:07 PM

I can't say I often agree with Teribus, but I do on this one. An assassination in the final quarter of WW2 may be different, but the idea that if Hitler had been killed in say 37 that people like Himmler would have opted for a quiet life in the country minding their own business is, I suggest, unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:14 PM

And he'll be taken into custody just how, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

I also think Teribus has made some very good points. If you assassinate one tribal potentate, another quickly rises in his place...in this case, it would be Kadhafi's son, of course...and if the son was then assassinated, another such would rise in his place, and right out of the same tribal power structure.

Teribus also says "As far as the armed forces of the Arab countries go it should be remembered that they are there not to protect the country from an external aggressor, they exist to protect the ruling caste."

Yes......okay....but it's overstating the case a little. ;-) What I mean is, yeah, their number one purpose is definitely to protect the ruling caste and keep the domestic public in line....but that doesn't mean that they will not at least attempt to resist an external aggressor...or to launch an external aggression of their own...if given the orders to do so. They most certainly will do both, because it's part of their job. The only question is how effectively will they do it? I doubt that the Libyan Army would do it very effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM

I heard a further category in this caper this afternoon.......ABSOLUTELY CRYSTAL CLEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:31 PM

It's an Alamo situation for Kaddafi and his soldiers. WILL their leader draw a line in the sand an say, "If you'd like to leave, please do." WHAT ARE the odds?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

As plain as the ass on a rainbow-butt monkey!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM

As Richard Nixon used to say, 999, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going." ;-)

Kadhafi appears to be a man who doesn't give up easily. (And he's very accustomed to getting his own way.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:07 PM

Guest 999: "And he'll be taken into custody just how, Steve?"

I think Steve would prefer for Qaddafi to evolve a jail cell around him!
He ain't bangin' on all eight.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

Do you remember when President CLinton was told that there was a real holocaust taking place in Rawanda?

He did nothing and over one million people were killed one or two at a time with machetes. Clinton said it was his greatest regret to have done nothing regarding Rawanda.

Obama is apparently responding before a holcaust that was promised by Kadaffy who said 700,000 Libyans in the east will be attacked and killed.

The obvious question is why believe Kadaffy? The obvious answer is that we believe in Libyan oil with or without Kadaffy above all else.

The message over on FOX news is that Obama was a failure for not responding and now that he has responded, Obama is a total failure who in fact may now be legally insane because he responded.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM

Obama will be criticized no matter what he does, Donuel, just as Bush would have been criticized before him, only by different people. Don't worry about it. ;-)

It's quite correct that Obama has behaved illegally, because like a whole long series of American presidents he has taken the country to war without the consent of Congress (after voting on it in Congress). That is illegal, because it's unconstitutional, but almost every president since FDR has done it, so there's nothing unusual about Obama doing it. They have a war, but don't bother declaring it, that's all.

Therefore, although I am observing that he did something unconstitutional and therefore illegal...I am not raising hell about it or pretending to be OUTRAGED! ;-D It's just one more case of the executive office in the USA acting as if it didn't need Congressional approval, and the rest of the government (aside from Dennis Kucinich, that is!) acting as if they didn't notice. It's standard stuff.

So don't make the mistake of imagining I'm up in arms about it. I'm not. I'm just bemused at how they all pretend to worship the Constitution, but they selectively get around it by doing whatever they want to, regardless...

I think it's also illegal to invade another country for quelling an internal revolt...no matter how much you disapprove of the government that's doing the quelling...

But again, the laws aren't really the determining factor at all. The determining factor is a combination of:

1. strategic interests

and

2. whether or not you can get enough public support to invade that other country

If so, and if the strategic interests are weighty enough, then the invasion (or other form of attack) will go ahead, and most people will pretend it is legal, they'll even believe it's legal, and the usual complications will follow.

And EVERYONE involved will swear they are doing it for the most laudable, patriotic, and humanitarian reasons...but they're all doing it for their own gain.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM

Kadaffy who said 700,000 Libyans in the east will be attacked and killed.

He didn't actually. He said that the opposition was just a few hundred, who would be killed if they resisted.

Mind, I don't think we should rely on anything he said, and he's clearly a murderous bastard.But there doesn't seem much reason for thinking he's unusually murderous compared to the other dictators we cosy up to.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:22 PM

No, but he's clearly become "dispensable" as far as the West is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999-- Reuters
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:35 PM

Canadians abort Libya attack, fearing casualties

Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:25pm GMT

OTTAWA, March 22 (Reuters) - Canadian military aircraft joined in a mission against ground targets in Libya on Tuesday, but did not drop their bombs amid concern there might be civilian casualties, military officials said.

Officials said two CF18 aircraft were assigned to attack a unspecified Libya airfield along with other aircraft from the U.S.-led coalition.

"Upon arrival on the scene in the target area, the air crew became aware of a risk (of collateral damage) they deemed as too high," Major General Tom Lawson, Canada's Assistant Chief of the Air Staff told reporters.

The Canadian jets returned safely to base.

Canada has sent six CF18 fighter jets to the operation and a frigate. It also has refueling aircraft in the region.

It was the second mission for Canadian planes in the campaign to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya to halt attacks on rebels and civilians and open the way for humanitarian help. It was the first time they had been assigned to attack a target.

Defense Minister Peter MacKay said that while the United States is still coordinating air operations, NATO was discussing if and how it should take over the mission.

"There is a further discussion if there will be an evolution of command and control of the entire mission. So no decision have been taken thus far," MacKay told a briefing. (Reporting Allan Dowd, Editing by David

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM

152 Tomohawks launched
food and fuel for 6 ships and crew
1 crashed fighter
misc.


total bill so far; 800 million before the misc.

Number of lives saved
priceless

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:35 PM

Libya attacks spark fight over cost

excerpts woth noting from the aboce link

"Rep. Dennis Kucinich, an Ohio Democrat, said Tuesday that he would try to block federal dollars from going to military operations in Libya.

"We have already spent trillions of dollars on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, both of which descended into unwinnable quagmires," Kucinich said in a statement. "Now, the president is plunging the United States into yet another war we cannot afford."

"President Obama has stressed since the start of the operation that the intervention in Libya would be brief. "Let me emphasize that we anticipate this transition to take place in a matter of days and not a matter of weeks," he said Monday."


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:42 PM

I think Obama is unifying our country's polarization.....Now both sides can't stand him!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:21 PM

"..immediately replaced by his son Saif"

You cannot assume that Libyans would consider the son the embodiment of Libya the way Gadhafi is now seen by many Libyans.   A much better analogy would be the end of the 3rd Reich.   Removing Gadhafi will cause his state to collapse--because of the way he has constructed it--as Hitler did in Germany.

A $10 million price on Gadhafi's head would test the loyalty of his mercenaries rather severely. And is likely to save the West (and the insurgents) a lot of grief (and money).

If you think Saif is held in the same esteem, let's have some evidence.

Subject: The HUMAN SHIELDS have just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:49 PM

The human shields are coming the human shields are coming

But before we get into that, the 1st order of business is changing the name of the mission 'Odessey Dawn'. It seems Carnival Cruise LInes has a ship by that name and is threatening a lawsuit.
How about Illiad Dusk ?!

I tuned into to CNN today and saw a reporter in Libya steaming mad and yelling aboutsomeone being just plain nuts and that he expected goverments to lie to him but not war time journalists. He was royally PO'ed

After making sure I wasn't watching FOX I listened more carefully.
He said the whole lie is hypocritical and that he is angry that the entire story about human shields is "just plain nuts!"
It turns out that the FOX reporter in Libya, who incidently never leaves the hotel, reported on FOX news that CNN,NBC and CBS reporters were taken as human shields by Goverment forces and that it is not clear if some had volunteered to be a human shield for Muamer Qadafy. "I am shocked and disappointed that the FOX reporter would say such a thing when the only time he is even seen by fellow journalists is at breakfast. Gary Thagen should know that reporters take the goverment tour just to make sure that they can correct any misleading editing the goverment may try. The charge of human shields is ridiculous on its face yet they are sticking to that absurd story.


Jeez Louise, I am proud of this guy. It seems he has never watched FOX news in his life or he would have been desensitized to their reporting style by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:12 AM

"If you think Saif is held in the same esteem, let's have some evidence."

Oh, yes! Let's. By all means! Okay...so, what we have to do is this: Start a big fundraising drive on Mudcat which will raise funds sufficient to send Teribus to Libya for a few weeks so that he can search out the evidence firsthand, compelling and undeniable evidence, well-documented and notarized...evidence sufficent to convince Ron Davies that Teribus might have some real basis for imagining that Saif could successfully take over in Gadhafi's place if Gadhafi were gone.

Then Ron will be satisfied. He will have the "evidence".

I think it's worth doing. What do the rest of you think? Should we get Max to announce such a fundraising drive? Personally, I love the idea of sending Teribus to Libya for an extended period to find evidence that will meet Ron Davies' requirements, and I am confident that he would do a fine job at it.

Okay, I'm gonna start this thing off. I will contribute 25 cents toward this worthy objective of Teribus securing corroborative evidence in Libya to back up what he says in order to make Ron happy.

Anyone else? ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:25 AM

Sorry you don't like evidence, LH.    Thinking people tend to prefer it to a blanket statement with no support.    Thought you might be interested. But perhaps not.

Look, Hitler was held by many Germans for many years in high esteem--and fear. At the end, it was just fear.   And there was no future for his state.   Exactly the same thing is happening to Gadhafi.   

And the process would be expedited by a $10 million price on his head.

It would be a cheap investment for the West. Either somebody would carry out the mission--or Gadhafi's paranoia would increase--and steadily alienate more Libyans-until his removal. Probably soon.

It's always good to encourage paranoia in your opponents--(as long as they are not nuclear-armed. )

Tends to impair their judgment.




Meanwhile, the West should provide intelligence, weapons, and training to the insurgents.

And no ground troops.

As all sides agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM

Ah, the ghost of that criminal Ronnie Raygun refuses to lie down...

Why don't we just send a bloody posse?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 06:18 AM

An excellent "rent a mob" in Tripoli - all nutters!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM

"A $10 million price on Gadhafi's head

And Gaddafi could put a similar price tag on the heads of Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy.

There's a reason our leaders fight shy of that kind of thing...

..........................

Libya: Six injured as US team botches rescue of downed airmen : US forces sent into Libya to rescue two downed American airmen botched the mission by shooting and wounding friendly villagers who had come to help, witnesses have said.

Tricky, given that the whole official reason for this war is to protect civilians. Still, they were Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:09 AM

"   send a bloody posse... ".

So sorry you're squeamish about the civil rights of Mr. Gadhafi.    Interestingly, he doesn't
himself seem to be squeamish about the issue.    In fact he's had no hesitation in putting a price on the head of the provisional government's leader. Turnabout is fair play.   Perhaps you've heard of this expression.   Or perhaps not.

And he keeps talking about looking forward to being a martyr.   The least we can do is oblige him---and by doing so,, keep lots more people alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM

" ...   similar price tag..."    That's why Secret Service-type groups exist.

Leaders know it goes with the territory.

Perhaps you're not interested in the job of leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:18 AM

*Sigh* the lynch mob rules...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:47 AM

Steve, you are a smart guy--please read NO facetiousness into that observation. What would you rather have seen happen? The Man with a Thousand Spellings was killing many of his own people just as he has killed many foreign nationals through his association with terrorist groups. This time he's on the receiving end of some bad shit. So, again, how would you have handled it if you'd had your druthers?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 09:37 AM

I'd sooner a situation in which, when a war starts, the efforts of both sides were spent on trying to kill the leaders on the other side, rather than ordinary citizens or soldiers. But I don't think the leaders on either side see it quite like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM

A snippet from 'The Great French Duel'

"The next thing in order was the choice of weapons. My principal said he was not feeling well, and would leave that and the other details of the proposed meeting to me. Therefore I wrote the following note and carried it to M. Fourtou's friend:

Sir: M. Gambetta accepts M. Fourtou's challenge, and authorizes me to propose Plessis-Piquet as the place of meeting; tomorrow morning at daybreak as the time; and axes as the weapons.
I am, sir, with great respect,

Mark Twain."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM

Gadaffi provided to his people, free education, free health service and cheap housing.
As a leader, he was far ahead of any in North Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:26 AM

That is correct ake ... that explains why there are many diehard supporters now fighting for his side.

To bad Gadaffi was over taken by illusions of grandeur and evil, (very evil) madness.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:40 AM

An interesting interview with Dennis Kucinich .... ok, ok it's a FOX production and the guy is a loudmouth, but regardless listen to Dennis, he has some interesting concerns to say.

Dennis speaks out

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM

They just needed the SAS to go in, that was all...

If they'd been there last night, when The Crazy One was spouting off madly, just a short clean shot, BANG!

"Oops, we seem to have lost The President!"

Then the people would take over..and the supporters would disappear because all the money he's been giving them would have stopped...

This way, The Mighty Jihad may well come riding across many deserts on his Camel...and then, Allah Help Us All...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM

Acutally, maybe we should all start learning to shout "AHUA!" at the tops of our voices..

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

Go to Libya? Hell no problem.

Ron wants evidence? Yet offers none to support his own view of what would happen if Muammar Gaddafi shuffled off his mortal coil.

Is the Libyan State even remotely like Nazi Germany? - No it is not, the Nazi Party was essentially a political party. The Libya of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi is "tribal", basically the Arab-Berber tribes (three off) and the Touaregs of the west up against the umpteen Arab-Berber tribes and Touben of the East and the South.

Now let me recall what happened in Syria when old man Assad died? Oh yes his son Young Assad stepped right into his shoes and that was a society that was both tribal and modelled on Hitler's Nazi Party, as was the Ba'athist regime of Saddam Hussein whose sons were both groomed to take over from their father.

Now let us have another look at Libya, who has been acting as spokesman? The Prime Minister?? Nope. Any other "Government" Minister apart from the Foreign Minister who did the comedy act ceasefire declaration - That was immediately violated?? Nope. What about Gaddafi's eldest son, Saif al-Islam Muammar Al-Gaddafi, oh yes we have seen him broadcasting messages to the people of Libya and to the rest of the world. Meanwhile what is his other son doing? He is leading armoured units of the Gaddafi forces so he is too busy to talk to television reporters.

Naw Ron, LH, Max no need to send me to Libya all the indications are there as plain as a pike-staff who would take over should anything happen to Muammar Gaddafi.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:51 PM

Why is the gadaffi renta mob always jumping up and down? Could it be that they have taken medicine and forgotten to shake the bottle???

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM

The sustained attacks by the US military on the sovereign nation of Libya constitute a declaration of war.

The United States is now at war with three Muslim-dominated countries at the same time. That is a big mistake no matter how much we dislike Khaddafi.

George Bush went before Congress and got full legal authorization to evict Iraqi forces from Kuwait in 1991.

George W. Bush got full Congressional approval to oust the Taliban and attack al-Queda, headquartered in Afghanistan, back in 2001.

GWB again got full legal approval for Phase III of the Gulf War, the ouster of Saddam Hussein's government.

In contrast, Bill Clinton had our military attempt to bomb Serbia back to the Stone Age with no approval, as required by the United States Constitution.

Obama has started a war, also without any attempt to get Congressional approval.

In fact, most members of Congress knew nothing about it. Obama seems to have ordered the attacks from a tent while visiting Brasil.

Dennis Kucinich is quite correct on this one. Obama's actions here are unconstitutional.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

The assumption that most Libyans want rid of Gaddafi is just that, an assumption. It may be a correct assumption, but nobody in public life or the media appear to have any interest in examining or testing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 04:27 PM

"The sustained attacks by the US military on the sovereign nation of Libya constitute a declaration of war."

Um, not really, it is the implementation of UN Security Council resolution 1973.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 04:27 PM

Someone, I cannot recollect who said that Gaddafi retains the support of the majority of his people.

Well if was left to Gaddafi that sentence would definitely be true as by the time he had finished the "opposition" and their families, second cousins and their pet tortoises would all be dead, most certainly leaving the majority support claimed.

This conflict has got nothing whatsoever to do with "democracy" the people of Libya want an end to a tribal kleptocracy that has been running the country for the last 40 years. What may well happen is that Libya will fragment and split in the three former "states" - Tripolitania (North-West); Cyrenaica (East); Fezzan (South-West). If that happened each would be independently wealthy as the oil & gas fields seem fairly evenly distributed with:

- Tripolitania having both onshore and offshore fields

- Fezzan obviously only onshore but it would have to export it's product through the two existing pipeline systems that run to the coast through Tripolitania

- Cyrenaica onshore fields, but with its own export facilities

The Libyan population consist of members of the following tribes:

Berbers (north-western Tripolitania)
Touaregs (south-western Fezzan)
Tebou (South Cyrenaica)
Arabs & Arab-Berbers (western and eastern across Tripolitania and Cyrenaica)

The latter group consists of the following tribes:
Siann (Tripolitania)
El Magarha (Tripolitania)
El Hasauna (Fezzan)

The above Arab-Berber tribes could be viewed as being in Gaddafi's camp.

Mugharbah (Cyrenaica)
Zuwayah (Cyrenaica)
Awaqir (Cyrenaica)
Abid (Cyrenaica)
Fawakhir (Cyrenaica)
Barasa (Cyrenaica)
Arafah (Cyrenaica)
Darsa (Cyrenaica)
Abaydat (Cyrenaica)
Majabrah (Cyrenaica)
Awajilah (Cyrenaica)
Minifah (Cyrenaica)

The above mentioned "eastern" Arab-Berber tribes mainly constitute the revolt.

The whole thing is further complicated by the aforementioned tribes being split even further into a collective number of some 140 "clans" with all ot those tribes

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 04:41 PM

Quite agree bobad, the United States of America is currently at war with no-one - FACT

Iraq:
US Forces present in the country at the specific request and agreement of the Iraqi Government

1. US forces withdrawn from the streets of Iraqi towns and cities 29th June, 2009.

2. US troops ended combat missions in Iraq on 31st August, 2010

3. US troops will all have left Iraq by 31st December 2011.

Afghanistan:
US & ISAF troops operating in Afghanistan under a United Nations Mandate and at the specific request of the Government of Afghanistan

1. October 2006 US-OEF Forces in Afghanistan reassigned from direct CENCOM command to ISAF Command

2. July 2011, first five Provinces to be handed over to ANSF troops who will assume sole responsibility for security.

3. December 2014 all 34 Afghan Provinces will be under the direct control of ANSF, with remaining ISAF troops in training and support roles.

Libya:
US, UK, French, Canadian, Norwegian & Danish forces operating under UN Mandate requested by the Arab League and by the GCC.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

Further to my post above, regarding Col Gadaffi's governance of Libya.

UN Human DevelopementReport 2010,rates Libya far higher than any other North African state, in terms of Health, Education and Income.

Libya...53rd. Tunisia...81st. Algeria...84th Egypt...101st. Morroco...114th.

"Moreover, Col Gadaffi probably does think that Al Quaeda is behind the rebellion in East Libya....as he has passed the names of hundreds of Islamic extremists to the CIA."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM

...the people of Libya want an end to a tribal kleptocracy that has been running the country for the last 40 years.

That may be true, or it may not be. Stating it doesn't prove it to be true.

It is clear that there are a lot of Libyans who want to get rid of him, but also that there are a lot of Libyans who support him. Which lot are more numerous is unclear.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 06:41 PM

Billions in gold, currency and in property stowed away in various accounts and banks spread all over the world in Gaddafi and his familiy's names atests to the "kleptocracy" part.

Here's a bit more information on Muammar Gaddafi for you Akenaton, you being such an admirer of the man and his form of "government":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi

It makes interesting reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:03 PM

Come on T, you know me better than that!

I'm simply pointing out the contradictions in our policy/adventure.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM

Ake, I think you and Steve Shaw are right to do so. There are aspects of UN 1973 that make this old boy a bit nervous. It actually mentions 'boots on the ground'.

Frankly I'd like to see 'botg' in the Cote d'Ivoire, but is seems skin colour still matters in this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM

The United States Congress has not used the term "declaration of war" to authorize a military conflict since 1942. Still, we have had wars in Korea, Viet Nam, Kuwait, Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan and probably other nations.

I believe that the 1949 Geneva Conventions are so restrictive that no country wants to make a formal declaration of war and subject themselves to the onerous restrictions.

Iraq, Afghanistan and now Lybia have the regular US military squaring-off against the military of a sovereign country, not a terrorist group.

If anyone really thinks that is not "war", they need to do a better job of explaining why.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:27 PM

Very interesting info about the tribal affiliations in Libya, Teribus. It's another case of an artificial country created, like Iraq, by a colonial power that drew some nice lines on a map, but without regard to the different tribal or cultural groups who would share that land under the colonial administration...and after it left them to themselves.

I note that Ron has not replied to any of this with any "evidence" of his own...probably because he has none. ;-) He is thus hoist on his own petard.

****

I don't agree that the USA is not at war in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya, because I don't particularly care about the arcane legal distinctions which politicians use to label one armed conflict or occupation as being "at war" and another one as something else. I think it's just lawyer's trickery, that gambit, and a war is a war, period, regardless of legal chicanery to the contrary, and anyone with half a grain of sense can see it's a war. But I don't expect we'll ever agree on that one, and who really gives a toss if we do, right? ;-) I know I don't. But it's something to talk about if one has the time and the inclination.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:41 PM

"lines on a map, but without regard to the different tribal or cultural groups who would share that land under the colonial administration..." ~ Birdfeathers

No, you keep trying to paint all Western attempts at peace as being imperialism. They are not.

The British were given the job of building a viable country called Iraq out of three disparate regions, one dominated by Kurds, one by Sunni Arabs and the third by Shiites.

The thankless job was awarded to the Brits by the League of Nations after the Ottoman Empire collapsed in WW I. That job eventually fell to the US, and things are going better than most expected.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:02 PM

I wasn't saying it was "imperialism", pdq, I was just saying it happened in various places during the colonial era, that's all. Whether one should call it imperialism or not is a whole different discussion.

If I'd been running the UK at the time, I might have done the same thing, after all. Who knows? But I'm saying that the boundaries drawn for many of those countries in Africa and the Middle East after WWI were probably drawn without full awareness of what the cultural aftereffects would be for the local people. To say this is not to be insulting "the West", it is simply to state what happened.

Larger powers always end up determining the future of various indigenous populations in weaker areas...for better or for worse. If we're going to argue about whether or not to call it "imperialism", it would be well to remember that there was a time not too long ago when every great power was proud to speak of its "empire". "Empire" was not a dirty word then, it was a badge of pride. When I was born in 1948, the British Empire still spoke proudly of itself and celebrated the fact that "the sun never sets on the British Empire".

Now, tell me....how can an empire NOT be imperial???? ;-) All empires practice imperialism, pdq, because to have an empire at all necessitates the practice of imperialism....and people used to be proud of themselves for doing it! Read some Rudyard Kipling, and you'll see that right away, although he was not blind to the aspirations of the subject races. He just honestly felt they were better off under British rule....and he may even have been partly right about that! After all, the British were good administrators, weren't they? And they kept the different ethnic groups under their rule from slaughtering each other. Look what happened when they finally left...not exactly a lovely scene, was it?

Yet, I believe it was inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:13 PM

I agree with you on most of what you said in the last few post. Certainly there is no reason to argue at any lenght.

I say Iraq, Afhganistan and now Lybia constitute "wars" and with two unfinished ones, having cost the US taxpayers $1.12 trillion dollars in the the last 9 1/2 years, should have kept us from starting a new one.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:17 PM

I agree. But think how happy the arms industry must be.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 10:27 PM

"Quite agree bobad, the United States of America is currently at war with no-one - FACT"

ok ... it's not a war ... even though the FACT is military bombs have been dropped from planes and 158 cruise missiles have been fired at an enemy ... is it politically correct to call them an enemy if it isn't a war?

.
.

no, it's not a war ... it's what they use to call a 'police action' .. ;-]

good grief

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM

FDR went to Congress and got an official declaration of war on Japan after Pearl Harbour. He later got the same Congressional approval to go to war against Germany and Italy. And that was the last time an American administration went through the proper constitutional motions of going to war...which require certain governmental and legal formalities and the consent of Congress (which represents the people).

Presidents since FDR have found it much more convenient to have wars which are not declared....and that means that what they have really done is to act like kings who launch wars by decree, in effect, as a solitary commander-in-chief of the nation's armed forces. This may be convenient, but it is not constitutional...and it is the epitome of hypocrisy to claim that these bloody "police actions" are not wars. They are wars, with all the physical features that characterize a war.

The General Staff plans attacks and issues orders. Ships go to sea, aircraft take to the air, guns are fired, bombs are dropped, battles are fought on foreign land, and people die. That's a war. You can call it by any other name you want, you can say you were "asked to go in" by someone (and the Germans used to say that too...), but it's still a war, and the power to wage war is supposed to be given by Congress not by presidential will.

The reason the Constitution was set up that way was to prevent American presidents from becoming, like most European Kings, absolute rulers and dictators, because it is simply too dangerous to entrust the decision to go to war to one man. If you can't get it authorized by the elected Congress of the nation, it should not be allowed to go ahead at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:06 PM

"no, it's not a war ... it's what they use to call a 'police action'"


I recall a line from the TV show, MASH. I think it was Pierce who said, "If this is a police action, why didn't they send cops?"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:08 PM

999 ... I remember that line from MASH ... good one ... :-)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:10 PM

Hmmmm. Any reports from the front?

Benghazi does have the reputation of sending more volunteers to fight alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan than any other city in North Africa. One of their senior members Hakim Al Sady is part of the rebel governing council and would should assume that he would be deeply suspicious of the involvement of France, the UK, and the United States in the UN coalition but he might also be very grateful that they were able to chew up Gadhafi's armored column before it made mincemeat of Benghazi's rebellious residents.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 12:32 AM

What I've gathered from here and there:

Of the 22 towns/cities in north Libya, a few days back only three were held by the rebels. As of today, 10 were held by the rebels with three towns/cities being actively contested. People are expecting a humanitarian crisis as hospitals run short of supplies and people run short of food and water. NATO can't decide yet who's gonna take over command from the US. A naval blockade is being actively enforced.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 10:36 PM

"Ron has not replied".    So sorry i have a life outside Mudcat.   You might want to try it sometime, LH. (Yeah, I know you're kidding. Sure you are.)   But it sure is interesting that you seem to be on Mudcat all the time.   Must have a rather undemanding job--and no other demands on your time by others in the house.



The question is if I have time to address all the specious arguments on the thread.

The answer is:   just enough now for a few points.

"lynch mob". Right.   For a mass-murdering dictator.

Good thing Churchill did not have this attitude.    And it was in fact very much in evidence at the time. The SIS did not take kindly to the SOE, which Churchill established 16 July 1940.    The SOE field included "terrorist acts against traitors and German leaders." Killing Hitler p 195.



And it's certainly not necessary to announce the $10 million bounty for Gadhafi.   Just see to it that the word gets to Gadhafi's own mercenaries. That's the main goal.


That's it for now. Have fun. I know you will.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 10:49 PM

Ah yes.   And there are in fact striking similarities between Gadhafi and Hitler:   specifically the structure of governance and and attitude towards dissent.    Gadhafi doesn't need to push for Lebensraum, both because of the small population, but also because he can and does exert much pressure in the region through "soft power"---specifically oil money.

And of course as far as I know he doesn't base aggression on race theory.

But a mass-murdering dictator he is-- and a rich one. Even with $30 billion-plus frozen outside Libya, he still has at least $5 billion in gold in Libya. And now he has every incentive to try to acquire nuclear weapons.   We have to certainly make sure he never even has a shadow of a claim to the $30 billion.   Having him shuffle off this mortal coil early would solve the problem neatly.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 11:03 PM

Also, anybody who thinks a 38-year old LSE grad can smoothly slip into Gadhafi's many roles needs to read further.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:15 AM

"Frankly I'd like to see 'botg' in the Cote d'Ivoire, but is seems skin colour still matters in this world."

There are "botg" in the Ivory Coast - a UN Peacekeeping Force under French "command".

Not being very effective because they are severely constrained by UN rules relating to UN Peacekeeping Forces. Counter to popular misconceptions:

- UN Peacekeeping Forces do not "sort out situations"

- UN Peacekeeping Forces are limited as to what arms they can deploy, they have no tactical air cover, no artillery and no armour. In short they can just about defend themselves.

- UN Peacekeeping Forces do not in fact enforce a peace, they monitor it. The warring factions in any situation must have already stopped fighting before a UN Peacekeeping Force is deployed, i.e. there should already be a truce or ceasefire in place.

- Historically if that truce or ceasefire breaks down the UN Peacekeepers are withdrawn.

The US should stand aside from police actions if only to show its detractors what happens in bad situations where they do not intervene. Rest assured China and Russia will not intervene to save human life and protect civilians, they will wait for the dust to settle then go in and exploit the situation to their advantage. The French will intervene but will be extremely ineffective. When the USA and the UK act in concert things do happen, things do get done usually to the advantage of the people affected and in saying that I do include Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe that there are many people in countries such as Haiti, Somalia, Rwanda, Sudan (Darfur) and The Ivory Coast wish that the US and UK had got more involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:00 AM

OK..It is being reported, that we already have 'boots on the ground'.(Special Forces, 'painting the target').

Also, this action has little to do with Qaddafi, or his abuses on his people. These are the cover story, and excuse. It has more to do a power play to take down Israel and the western economic system. This action gives precedent to allow Israel to be invaded by the other middle eastern anti Israel countries, with the support of the U.N., including us, whether it would be justified, or not.

Whether you support that idea or not, is really up to you, though, as I poster previously, this is a huge mistake! Obama was ill advised, and America is in the process of selling out our relationship with Israel.

That's all, but at least you heard it here first(maybe), on the good ol' Mudcat Forum.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:48 AM

Mistake(typo) Third paragraph it should not be "poster" but 'posted'
Fix it, if you could, thank you.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:51 AM

When the USA and the UK act in concert things do happen, things do get done usually to the advantage of the people affected and in saying that I do include Iraq and Afghanistan.

I doubt whether the families of three quarters of a million dead Iraqi civilians would agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM

So now that Obama has handed over leadership to NATO for implementing UN resolution 1973 on schedule, the Republicans now accuse him of lack of leadership. I guess in their minds, GWB's unilateral action on Iraq still rings true.

Of course US forces will still be involved within NATO and continuing to provide important functions. But now other countries, including Arab countries, are more willing to join in the effort.

Not a bad result for what a week ago looked like another bloodbath.

And so far reports of "collateral damage" seem relatively modest, even if all the claims by Gadhaffi's spokespeople turn out to be true.

GfS-

The media evidently has not picked up on the latest conspiracy theory posted by GfS. Where did this one come from or did you think it up yourself? Could you restate it? I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic. I do hate to encourage you but I am genuinely puzzled.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:00 AM

GfS .... you got it. I can not help but beleive the door is now open to to justify military action against Israel (right or wrong). The resentment against Israel is growing at a fast pace in the western world. The fashion now is to blame Israel for all the issues happening in the mideast (sadly to say).

For those who speak of genocide well, we have not seen anything yet. If the door is opened to legally sanction the military intervention against Israel all hell will break lose ... we are going to see acts of violence of man against man that we have not seen in decades. I just hope the western world has the logistics and economics to perform a massive airlift. I also hope the western world has the humanity to take in to their countries the lucky ones who get out.

Hopefully I'm wrong with my predictions, but unfortunaly I can't see any hope with all that is going on.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM

"I doubt whether the families of three quarters of a million dead Iraqi civilians would agree with you."

What three quarters of a million dead Iraqi civilians?

According to those responsible for clearing up the bodies and burying the dead in Iraq the number stands at somewhere around the 150,000 mark, most of those (between 67% and 75%) killed by fellow Iraqi's who were members of insurgent groups, sectarian militias or criminal gangs, a fair number were also killed by foreign jihadi "fighters" who came to Iraq to fight and kill the invading foreign infidels. Unfortunately for these "brave freedom fighters for Islam" they discovered very early on that the evil invading foreign infidels tended to fight back rather successfully, so those "brave freedom fighters for Islam" went back to what they do best, i.e. killing defenceless unarmed civilians, not caring a toss whether they were muslim or not.

Daily average death toll related to civilians in Iraq has been reduced by a factor of 87% when compared to the daily averages batted by Saddam Hussein in his 24 year reign.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:04 AM

"This action (UN action in Libya I presume) gives precedent to allow Israel to be invaded by the other middle eastern anti Israel countries, with the support of the U.N., including us, whether it would be justified, or not."

What complete and utter tosh. In what way does this set a precedent that would allow military action to be taken against Israel? On what grounds? Military action by whom? Care to run through the likely candidates?

Lebanon:
Highly unlikely, Lebanon is just gearing itself up for the next chapter in it's own bloody civil war. If Hezbollah in Lebanon attempted anything against Israel they would be destroyed, along with much of southern Lebanon.

Syria:
Bashar al-Assad and the Ba'athist Party in Syria have got other things on their minds at the moment. Besides the Syrian Army or Air Force have never been a match for the IDF and they are fully aware of that. In 1973 Damascus was completely open to capture and all of Syria knew it - No Syria is not going to invade Israel.

Jordan:
The only Jordan that might invade Israel might be the British Z-list celebrity with the silicone boobs. King Abdullah II certainly isn't going to throw over the Peace deal with Israel signed by his Father because of any concern for "The Palestinians" (Pssst Remember it was his father King Hussain of Jordan that threw the bastards out of Jordan in 1970 after Yasser Arafat tried to take over his Kingdom)

Egypt:
They have just undergone a revolution of their own that their Army is at present quietly sitting on and watching very carefully. No they will not throw away the peace they signed with Israel.

That leaves who else??

Turkey:
Naw, not a hope, they are not that stupid

Iran:
Nope far too cowardly to fight anyone directly, they conduct all their dirty work by proxy, they prefer to pay others to die on their behalf.

"The resentment against Israel is growing at a fast pace in the western world. The fashion now is to blame Israel for all the issues happening in the mideast."

Hell as like, it may however be the fashion amongst the illiterate, the ignorant, the impressionable, the gullible and the easily led.

"For those who speak of genocide well, we have not seen anything yet. If the door is opened to legally sanction the military intervention against Israel all hell will break lose ... we are going to see acts of violence of man against man that we have not seen in decades."

No-one in their right minds in the middle-east, or anywhere else, is going to even propose military action against Israel let alone sanction it. The USA has a bilateral defence pact with Israel that is inviolate, anyone proposing military action against Israel in the UN Security Council will come up against a US Veto.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:21 AM

Interesting that a Libyan owned oil company is demanding the return of British oil workers to start up it's oilfields - if they don't go, their contracts will be terminated. The person I spoke to will be telling them to get stuffed!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 11:16 AM

"The resentment against Israel is growing at a fast pace in the western world. The fashion now is to blame Israel for all the issues happening in the mideast."

Hell as like, it may however be the fashion amongst the illiterate, the ignorant, the impressionable, the gullible and the easily led.

Well, it's hard to see how Israel could take the rap for recent events in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, etc., but it's impossible to deny that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is at the root of nearly all the unrest in the region before that. In turn, by far the biggest factor helping to perpetuate that conflict is the unconditional bankrolling of Israel's military by the US. Without that, we would not have Hezbollah or Hamas. You condemn Iran (a country that has never invaded another) for being cowardly in getting others to do its dirty work, whilst there's not a word from you about the egregious manner in which the US is doing exactly that by providing for Israel's massive army, and on a scale many times greater. I'm not one of those who would wish Israel to be wiped off the map, neither do I think that the west shouldn't have friendly relations with Israel. But I do think that military aid should be conditional on responsible and legal military behaviour, and I think there should be far less of that aid. If you're giving enough aid to enable a country to attack its neighbours willy-nilly and illegally occupy or besiege Palestinian land, not simply give it the wherewithal to defend itself, you are overdoing it in my book. I don't think for one second that there are significant threats looming on Israel's borders because of recent events. But the biggest threat to Israel is going to come from Israel itself, and that may well happen in the not too distant future when they attack Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:06 PM

"If you're giving enough aid to enable a country to attack its neighbours willy-nilly and illegally occupy or besiege Palestinian land, not simply give it the wherewithal to defend itself, you are overdoing it in my book."

Which countries, what neighbours has Israel attacked "willy-nilly"?

1948: Israel itself was attacked inside the borders of the Territory that was then known as Palestine. The Jews of Palestine had accepted the UN's Plan proposed in 1947 and the Arabs of Palestine had rejected it, so when Israel declared itself an independent state the Arabs of Palestine assisted by the Arabs of Jordan, Syria and Egypt invaded the mandated Palestine Territory.

- The Israeli's fought to protect their borders,
- The Jordanians grabbed the West Bank and East Jerusalem and occupied them until 1967
- The Egyptians grabbed the Gaza Strip and occupied them until 1967

How is your argument about taking land from others by force of arms holding up?

1949 - 1956: Raids and attacks on Israel from Syria, Jordan and Egypt

1956: Nasser nationalises the Suez canal closing it to Israeli shipping. Under the terms of the UN Charter it is an Act of War to close or restrict an international water-way, which the Suez canal most definitely is. The UK and france retake the canal and Israel clears the Egyptians from Sinai. UN place a Peacekeeping Force in Sinai to prevent further Fedayeen attacks on Israel from Egypt.

1957 - 1967: Attacks on Israel continue and the rhetoric is ramped up several notches. Egypt orders the UN Peacekeeping Force out of Sinai and the Arab world parks five armies on the borders of Israel vowing to drive the Jews into the sea. Egypt closes the Suez Canal and the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping.

1967: The Six Day War which Israel wins convincingly. Jordanians are booted out of the land they themselves illegally took and held by force in 1948 and the Egyptians are once again cleared out of Gaza and the Sinai. The Syrians lose the Golan Heights from where they had been shelling Israel for years. Two times now Israel and her Arab neighbours had signed UN brokered cease-fire agreements and on neither occasion had the Arabs lived up to their end of the bargain, so this time there was no automatic return to the ante-bellum borders, this time Israel was clear - Land For Formal Peace Treaties.

1973: The Yom Kippur War where Egypt and Syria carry-out an unprovoked attack on Israel to recapture land they had lost. Again Israel defeats her attackers convincingly.

1979: Egypt/Israeli Peace Treaty

1986: Israel having intervened in the Lebanese Civil War to stop PLO attacks on Northern Israel establishes a "buffer zone" in southern Lebanon, which it voluntarily withdraws from in 2000

1987: Palestinian Arabs declare the First Intifada

1994: Jordan/Israeli Peace Treaty

2000: Camp David Peace Proposals rejected by Arafat and the Second Intifada is declared by Arafat.

2005: Israel unilaterally withdraws from the Gaza Strip

2006: Attacks on Israel from South Lebanon and from the Gaza Strip

2008: Turkey acts a mediator in secret peace talks between Syria and israel

2008: Israel attacks Gaza (Between 2001 and 2008 8,600 rockets had been fired indiscriminately at Israel civilian centres of population).

There is no such country as "Palestine" - there never was. "Palestine" is a construct of Yasser Arafat, the greatest gangster and opportunist that the Arabs of palestine have ever had to suffer under (and by Christ his uncle took some beating, but good ol' Yasser managed it).

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

Please, if we're going bring up Israel .... let's don't bring up the history of Israel and it's past conflicts. I should have kept my mouth shut .... anyway, if we are going to brigng up Israel let's stay focused on the current concerns and how the events going on in the Arab countries, and world opinion will put Israel in a precarious position.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM

Steve: "You condemn Iran (a country that has never invaded another) for being cowardly in getting others to do its dirty work, whilst there's not a word from you about the egregious manner in which the US is doing exactly that by providing for Israel's massive army, and on a scale many times greater."

Steve, I'm glad to see a more serious post from you...that being said, Iran and the Iraqi war, in which killed over a million people, would seem to contradict some of you post. This was mostly a 'religious based conflict, (at least that's what was reported), but Iran did invade Iraq. Out of it, the U.S. supported Iraq, and it was not until the hostage taking in Iran, that we supplied Iraq, with arms (missiles), to secure their release. The cover story at that time was the swearing in of Ronald Reagan. If anyone can remember, that during the swearing in, the crawler beneath the video coverage, ran the hostage release story..but it had NOTHING to do with him being sworn in, but an arms deal in which Iraq threatened to, in effect, blackmail the U.S. based on their piecing together a lot of documents, both shredded, and not, that they had, when they took over the embassy. There are more details to in, but this should suffice to say, what took place, in an overview. By the way, the present leader of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, was one of the organizers, and participants of the hostage takers...and just like the U.S. does support military efforts, to fight its proxy wars behind the scenes.
But, really Steve, it was good to see you post a 'less than sarcastic' post.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

Charley Noble: The media evidently has not picked up on the latest conspiracy theory posted by GfS. Where did this one come from or did you think it up yourself? Could you restate it? I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic. I do hate to encourage you but I am genuinely puzzled."

Actually I got it off the media...and when I get more time, when I get back from town, tonight, I'll give you more info about it, unless someone else picks up on it, and fills you in.
I know, I was blown away, when I heard the 'ins and outs' of the details!..but when I heard it, it made complete sense..you know, like those things you hear, that says, "Yeah, that's it!"
Gotta go...last post I can do now...I'm late!

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM

I got into a slagging match with Steve a while back. We then traded a few messages and guess what? He's really a nice guy. Although I disagree with him about how we're handling Libya, I remembered that I once supported the invasion of Iraq based on the necessity for it as promulgated by those bastards in the White House and their friends in the media. I may have done so again regarding Libya, but maybe not.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:14 PM

Some nice misrepresentations there, Teribus. To take but one example, no mention of the atrocities committed in southern Lebanon in 2006 such as leaving tens of thousands of (American) cluster bomblets all over the countryside to blow children's legs off for years to come. You could also have referred to the illegal use of white phosphorus in Gaza and the deliberate targeting of civilians, not to speak of the brutal and pointless siege of Gaza. However, as has been said, 'tain't an Israel thread. My point was that we should not be supplying arms to countries who use them irresponsibly. And that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict was, until recent months, at the root of all middle east conflict for many decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM

In which case then Mr.Shaw answer my question:

"What countries has Israel attacked willy-nilly?"

Lebanon provocation entering od Israel by Hezbollah to kidnap two Israel soldiers followed by rocket attacks.

Israeli attacks on Gaza? 8,600 rocket attacks in the course of 8 years?? How would you respond?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM

I fail to see what the Israelis have to do with this thread--no offense to anyone. The pro-con Israeli positions are clear for damned near everyone who's ever posted on a thread to do with the mid-East.

Hell, I could go back to older threads and c and p what most posters think--including myself--and I'd bet a buffalo head nickel that you'd not recognize the difference from an old post and one from today. imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:59 PM

Agreed. We'll let the fact that Teribus wears a blinker over one eye rest for now. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:15 PM

Well, Steve, considering our stormy start, I have come to see you as very reasonable--not as reasonable as me of course, but close. Teribus and I go way back, and he is one tough sonuvagun, and the kind of guy I hope to have in my corner when the s##t hits the fan. I don't know either of you in real life, but I'd bet another buffalo head nickel that you two would get along. imo, and let's don't you guys mess up my hopes and wishes.   ;-)

EUREKA, I just got it. The semicolon then dash then end parenthesis actually constitute a wink. (Please don't ask what I'm doing posting from the floor on my side.) :)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

Iran did invade Iraq.

Check your facts.

The war was initiated by Iraq launching an air and land invasion of Iraq, without any warning, ultimatum or declaration of war. After this attack was repulsed Iranian forces counterattacked and occupied Iraqi territory until the end of the war (which ended soon after the US shot down a civilian Iranian airliner, which was taken by the Iranians as an indication that the USA was at the point of moving in in support of Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime). After the war Iran withdrew to the prewar boundaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM

Still no-one has stated how or why what is currently happening in Libya creates a precedent that would allow attacks on Israel - That 999 is where Israel comes into the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:39 PM

I have never heard anyone seriously suggest that the US shot down the Iranian Air Bus as a warning to the Iranians.

That is outrageous and should be taken back pronto.

The Air Bus was flying toward a US military vessel with a full crew, and the captain was obligated to protect his men.

The Iranian aircraft was spotted on radar, not by sight. It was warned repetedly to turn away, but it's radios were tuned to civilian bands, not military radio frequencies and did not respond. The US captain never recovered completely from the shock of what happened. To say this act was intentional is an outrage.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:53 PM

Hmmmmm???

Unless I am missing something everything that is happening in Northern Africa and the Middle East has nothing to to with Isreal...

...but everything to do with way too much income inequality and lack of opportunities for a young, educated generation...

You know, kinda more like the US... In come inequality and lack of opportunity...

Israel get a pass on this tho...

... it might provide an excellent opportunity for some progress on Isreal's Palestinian situation if the hard-liners can look at what is happening and see for themselves that everyone would be better off if they resolved their differences... I mean, the Palestinian situation is not unlike other countries in the area with a major lack of opportunity for its people... That's what this is all about after all... It's not about dictators... It's about one's ability to use his or her intellect and education to make a danged living... Nothing less and nothing more...

The first thing all these dictators do is offer $$$... Screw $$$... Offer jobs!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:04 PM

"Still no-one has stated how or why what is currently happening in Libya creates a precedent that would allow attacks on Israel"

The Gadhafi Precedent Israeli Unity Coalition


The Gadhafi precedent Washington Times


This is why I brought Israel inot this thread. It concerns me.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:14 PM

btw .... these 2 links are the same editorial by Frank J. Gaffney Jr. .... but from 2 different sources ... I don't think it is some wacky conspiracy theory, but provides some valid food for thought.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM

Sigh, another thread totally derailed.

Now I know that GfS is in an orbit all her own but I've totally missed out on why Israel is the next state to be abandoned in the US plan to dominate the world. And it's all supposed to make sense.

The Obama Administration has ben mildly critical of some recent actions taken by Israel, as well as actions taking by some factions of the Palestinians. But I'm not getting a hint that the US would dare to abandon our loyal ally Israel in favor of any of its neighbors, even if they had a BIG pool of oil. Is this Haliburton's master plan?

Let's get back to keeping score of what's going on and about in Libya. Is it true that 90% of the Rebel leadership is on the payroll of Osama Ben-Laden? Actually I just made that up but feel free to respond ardently.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:40 PM

I'm not trying to hijack this thread and I'm certainly not trying to revive the old pro-con Israel position argument (far from it) ... what I'm trying to get across is the 'Gadhafi precedent' which the UN sanctioned the no fly zone plus used on Libya could be used against Israel ... which in itself could be used as an argument against this whole bombing thing which is the title of the thread. I'm not stating that the U.S. wants to dominate the mideast and I'm not stating the Israelis's deserve to get their ass whipped like Gadhafi. I'm just stating some facts that I feel can make the mideast even more unstable than it already is as a result of the 'Bombing of Tripoli has begun'

I also am aware that Frank J. Gaffney Jr is somewhat of a right wing advocate which I certainly do not agree with, but regardless what he has to say concerning the 'Gadhafi precedent' pretty well sums up some of my concerns.

and as I stated before only time will tell, and I do hope for the best for all the people of the mid-east and n. Africa, Muslims and Jews alike.

and with that being said for all it's worth I further add my adieu to this thread.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM

Gaffney is way of mark in describing his scenario

1: There is no state of palestine, there never has been.

2: For UN to pay any attention to anything any Palestinian delegation might say that Palestinian delegation would have to state very clearly and very forcefully that it recognises Israel's borders, sovereignty and right to exist free from any threat of attack. It should be remembered that the UN was the first body to recognise the state of Israel followed by the Governments of the USA and the USSR. Hamas will never accept that and that is why the international community refuse to recognise Hamas as the Government of anybody.

3: For Gaffney's scenario to unfold the United States of America has got to renege on it's long standing bi-lateral defence treaty with Israel, which up until the liberation of Iraq was the only functioning democracy in the region - The United States of America will not do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM

As far as applying the Gaddafi Precedent goes, there would be a stronger case for action against Hamas in Gaza than against Israel.

The Arab League demanding military action?? They might demand it all they want, they, and the world and its dog, know they won't do anything about it - 1948; 1956; 1967; 1973; 2006; 2008 - They know if they act against Israel they will be defeated, hopefully this time the Israeli's will finish the job once and for all, both sides in this mess have had over 60 years to reach an agreement and every time the Arabs have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in order to continue "their struggle".

"After this attack was repulsed Iranian forces counterattacked and occupied Iraqi territory until the end of the war (which ended soon after the US shot down a civilian Iranian airliner, which was taken by the Iranians as an indication that the USA was at the point of moving in in support of Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime)."

Utter bullshit Kevin. The Aegis weapons control system on the USS Vincennes is extremely fast and cannot be overidden once it perceives a threat. The British DLG HMS Hampshire nearly shot down a civilian cargo 707 in the Malacca Straits during the Indonesian Confrontation under similar circumstances, but the Commanding Officer (who in those days was the ONLY person who could give the order to "engage") took a very courageous decision to wait until one of two things happened:

1: The aircraft turned away sharply and the radar echo split in two with one continuing on towards the ship indicating that the aircraft had launched one or more stand-off weapons (Kelt missiles) - in this case Hampshires weapons systems shoot down the missiles

2: The Rating manning the MRS-3 Director gets a visual on the aircraft and positively identifies it.

What happened was the latter. In accordance with the "Rules of Engagement" in force at the time the Captain of HMS Hampshire would have been fully justified in taking on that aircraft and shooting it down - just as the Captain of the USS Vincennes was.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM

Well, evidently we can begin posting Rebel victories again:

From Al Jazeera:

"Libyan rebels are advancing westwards after recapturing the strategic eastern town of Ajdabiya from government controls with the help of coalition airstrikes.

Reports on Saturday afternoon suggested rebels had already pressed onto the oil-port town of Brega, 80 kilometres to the west.

'We are in the centre of Brega,' rebel fighter Abdelsalam al-Maadani told the AFP news agency by telephone."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM

Why are we not protecting the "civilians" of Brega and Tripoli from the rebels?
Do they only carry "pop" guns?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:56 PM

2: For UN to pay any attention to anything any Palestinian delegation might say that Palestinian delegation would have to state very clearly and very forcefully that it recognises Israel's borders, sovereignty and right to exist free from any threat of attack. It should be remembered that the UN was the first body to recognise the state of Israel followed by the Governments of the USA and the USSR. Hamas will never accept that and that is why the international community refuse to recognise Hamas as the Government of anybody.

Well gosh, it's clear whose side you're on. You want the UN to pay attention to the Palestinians only when the latter promise to recognise Israel's borders. That's a laugh, innit, considering that Israel has been in breach of UN resolutions regarding borders for almost half a century. In addition, you want Israel, uniquely on this planet, to be free from any threat of attack. You fail to spell out what Israel itself might have to do to expedite this, as though it would just be a matter of everyone else in the region just lying down and letting Israel get on with whatever they want to get on with. I'll remind you that, inconveniently for you and your fellow-traveller Israel apologists, Hamas was elected in free and fair elections, and I would also remind you that if you ever want to get people to change you have to sit down with them and negotiate, not demonise them in the way you have done in this post. Even Ian Paisley will tell you that. Since when has it been OK to collectively punish a million and a half people, as in Gaza, because they voted the way you didn't want them to? You know damn well that there has to be no such thing as "never" in politics, and that, one fine day, someone will sit down with Hamas and negotiate, and that Hamas will find accommodation with Israel. There are factions within Hamas who already acknowledge that that must happen one day. Anyone, like you, who persists in confusing silly megaphone rhetoric with hard reality has simply not learned the lessons of history. Your timeline account of the recent history of this conflict, apart form being exceptionally partial in its detail as I've already indicated, also completely omits any mention of the perfectly justified grievances of the Palestinians before and during the birth of Israel. I could also add that you neglect to mention the utterly disproportionate responses of Israel to attacks (which I condemn, actually, believe it or not). In ten years, around a dozen Israelis have been killed by Hamas rockets, whilst at the same time around twenty children per year are killed either by Israeli snipers or, worse, remote-controlled firearms, for the sin of playing within 300 metres of the Gaza border. Cast Lead killed 1300 Gazan civilians, including 300 children. In the same operation, Israeli casualties numbered just thirteen soldiers. Hundreds of Palestinians are currently incarcerated in Israeli jails without charge and without knowing why they are there. Almost 300 Palestinian children are in custody in Israel. The building of illegal settlements continues apace. A Palestinian approaching an Israeli roadblock will typically wait for two days to get through (for Israeli Jews it's instantaneous, of course). Whole families have been divided, and farmland stolen, by the construction of that apartheid wall. Israeli attacks on Gaza destroyed schools, hospitals, power stations and water works, and now building materials are not allowed in to allow reconstruction.

I think that you, and other apologists for Israel's atrocities, had better address each and every one of these points, one by one, before coming out with further "justifications" predicated mainly on apparent serious memory lapses. If you have any interest at all in being fair, that is. I probably shouldn't be holding my breath, should I.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:53 PM

The Israeli/Palestinian land split--tough shit. The Israelis (read Jews) bought the land. When they offered to teach the Palestinians how to use the land to produce (the Sinai), the offer was refused. The people who suffer on behalf of Palestinians are never there. They post their diatribe here.

I face death, as do we all, and had I a choice I would meet my maker at places like Little Big Horn (I'da been Sioux), Thermopylae, Dieppe, Juno Beach, Andersonville, Dien Bien Phu, hoping I could die with people of courage. You folks with lotsa cash need to hang onto it. Those of us with little or none--well, we just don't see it the same way you do.

I respect your right to think of us as shit, but I will respect my right to say you are an ass. My grandfather fought your fucking war, dug your coal, helped feed your children--in fact, helped feed you. Fuck your attitude and your disdain. On the worst day of his life he was better than you.

My real name is Bruce Murdoch. I live in Ormstown, Quebec. If you ever wish to talk in person, I'm easy to find. Until then, piss off.

Best personal regards,

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:15 PM

Like I said, all that is going on offers both the Palestinians and the Israelis the "political cover" to make progress toward the safety of both...

This has gone on long enough for both sides...

Time to get on toward a peaceful and mutually respectful resolution...

Gotta strike while the iron is hot and it may not be this hot ever again...

Just MO...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM

Perhaps Bruce, in a moment of greater clarity, will try to focus and articulate his feelings a little more accurately than that. Frankly, I didn't understand a bloody word of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 08:17 PM

Look, gang, just take your continuing "discussion" of Israel/Palestine to another thread. I might even contribute if folks are not too abusive.

Sure, a lot of issues in the Middle East are connected but this thread was an attempt to focus on what was happening in Libya. Please respect that.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 08:28 PM

C'mon, Charley, thread drift is a time-honoured and honourable pursuit. Nearly every serious thread I ever post gets hijacked. Big deal. You can hardly expect intemperate rants of the sort Teribus posted to go unchallenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:30 PM

That rant wasn't addressed to you, Steve. It was addressed to people who think Israel and its people have no right to be. I doubt you didn't understand a word I said. I understand your words, and we seem to speak the same language. The purpose of this thread was Libya and what's happening there. How Israel got involved is a mystery to me, but it's not something I can let pass without remark. Israel has NOTHING to do with Libya in the context of what's being discussed. People who wish to slag the country or its people should start another thread and have at it there. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:01 PM

999 - I sent you a pm

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:47 PM

Thanks, 6. I have answered and I'll phone you tomorrow. Best to you.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:13 AM

Purposes of threads have a delicious habit of not remaining what the originator intended. If I had a quid for every thread of mine that got derailed (and that I'd joined in the derailing of) I'd be King Croesus. Libya and Israel are connected in that an awful lot of us scratch our heads at that ready intervention of the west in an oil country whilst similar atrocities meted out to Palestinians are left unchallenged. And don't tell they're not similar. They are not identical but they both cause misery, insecurity and fear for thousands of ordinary families. For the record, I am not one of those people who think Israel and its people have no right to be. I might have thought in 1948, had I been a sentient being at the time, that there should have been no right to an Israel, but we are where we are and I have no patience with Israel wiper-off-the-mappers, Holocaust-deniers, antisemites and similar scumbags.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:36 AM

I have no patience for Islamo-fascist scumbag terrorists who cause misery, insecurity and fear for thousands of ordinary families.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:06 AM

And who might they be, then? I might suggest, in your response (if you can be arsed) to be fairly careful with your use of "Islamo-fascist."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:42 AM

I apologize for losing my rag. Israel might be one of the few buttons of mine that can still get pushed. I've seen too many threads disappear into Israel/Israeli bashing. Sorry.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:11 AM

Leaping lizards!

And creeping crud!

So what happens when Gadaffi's forces dig in deep in the next town the rebels try to take, where they can't be bombed out via air power or missile strikes without likely injury to the civilian population? And why haven't Gadaffi forces mined the major roads as they've retreated?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM

"And why haven't Gadaffi forces mined the major roads as they've retreated?"

From what Al Jazeera is reporting, his forces, when overcome by the pro-democracy rebels, are fleeing in disarray, leaving their armaments behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:26 AM

I have a bad feeling about interfering in the Libyan situation...a very bad feeling...I just hope I'm wrong..

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM

Well you should, Liz. War has become a spectator sport (with NO offense meant to posters here) and there are casualties that sicken us all. TMWATN is very bad news. The scene in the movie Old Yeller where the dog is put down because it was rabid: had to be done, but every kid in North America was in tears because of it, me included. I won't be in tears when TMWATN is dethroned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM

"War has become a spectator sport..."

War has been a spectator "sport" ever since reporters were filing reports from the front lines to newspaper readers anxious to hear of the latest battles and to dissect them at the local watering hole.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM

war has been a spectator sport since William Russell reported for The Times from The Crimean War

and interesting book about war reporting is The First Casualty: The War Correspondent as Hero and Myth-maker from the Crimea to Kosovo by Phillip Knightley

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM

999-

So when I google "TMWATN" i find this phrase:

"TMWATN will burn in the nuclear flames of Barneyland's cannibal realms!"

Now it's all clear!

I was raised with fire arms on our farm but when someone suggested to me that it might be a good idea to carry one while I was working in a remote area of Ethiopia, I wisely decided that was not a good idea. It would have been a good idea to have been more cautious, however, but that is thread drift, and I won't have that! I obviously survived.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM

Canadian General to Take NATO Command of Libya
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: March 25, 2011 at 1:12 PM ET

    TORONTO (AP) — A Canadian general will take over command of the NATO mission in Libya.

Canadian Defense Minister Peter MacKay said Friday that Lt.-Gen. Charles Bouchard has been designated to lead the alliance's military campaign in Libya.

Bouchard is stationed in Naples, Italy, at the Allied Joint Force Command.

Bouchard's recent job was deputy commander of NORAD, reporting to an American general.

"He will be commander of the NATO operations, yet to be fully defined NATO operations," MacKay said.

The international coalition confronting Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi has agreed to put NATO in charge of enforcing the no-fly zone. It was still trying to hammer out a deal to relieve U.S. forces of command of all military operations in the country.

U.S. President Barack Obama and Defense Secretary Robert Gates have both said that American command of the operations would last only a few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:44 PM

TMWATN -- the man with a thousand names

reference to an earlier post where I mentioned Libya's leader having so many spellings for his name.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:47 PM

From BBC

"the Benghazi-based Transitional National Council said the rebels could begin exporting oil in less than a week.

Spokesman Ali Tarhouni said oil fields in territory under opposition control were already producing more than 100,000 barrels of crude a day.

He said the Gulf state of Qatar had agreed to help bring it to market"

News reports like this and others that Gaddafi's forces are increasingly turning tail and fleeing as the pro democracy rebels advance closer to Tripoli are signals that the end game may be in sight. We can only hope that it will be achieved with minimal loss of life....Insh'Allah.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:36 PM

The only reason Mr Kadhafi has "a thousand names" is that we English-speaking and other western people are apparently unable to agree among ourselves on how to spell a name that is written in a completely different script (Arabic) in another language. We don't know how to spell it, although we can all hear how it's pronounced if a Libyan says it! ;-)

We all hear the same thing, therefore, but our people end up spelling it 50 different ways. I trust that the Libyans spell it one way, consistently, when they write it in Arabic script.

So who does this make the ignorant party here...us or them? ;-D And why should Gadhaffi himself be ridiculed for the fact that WE can't agree on how to spell his name?

God knows...there are enough legitimate reasons to ridicule him! But that's not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:00 AM

I know that for fuck sake, LH. Jaysus. Give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM

As I posted above:

"So what happens when Gadaffi's forces dig in deep in the next town the rebels try to take, where they can't be bombed out via air power or missile strikes without likely injury to the civilian population? And why haven't Gadaffi forces mined the major roads as they've retreated?"

Too tough a question to wrestle with or am I off-topic?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 09:16 AM

The latest update from Al Jazeera:

"Libyan rebels are claiming to have captured the town of Sirte, the home of embattled Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi.

Shamsi Abdul Molah, a spokesman for the opposition's National Council, told Al Jazeera that opposition forces had moved into the city at approximately 1.30am last night (local time).

"[They say that] they found it an unarmed city. They had no problem getting in there, they did not encounter any resistance," reported Sue Turton, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Benghazi. Celebratory gunfire was head in Benghazi, the opposition's stronghold in the east of the country, as news filtered in of the taking of Gaddafi's hometown.

Al Jazeera has not been able to independently verify the report, and the Reuters news agency has quoted a witness in Sirte as saying that the city is still under government control.

An engagement between pro- and anti-government forces occured about 30km from the city of Nofilia (which itself is 180km from Sirte), where pro-Gaddafi forces are shelling positions near a large opposition force that was advancing on Gaddafi's hometown.

A column of military vehicles was seen leaving Sirte on Sunday, heading west towards the capital, Tripoli."

If this news is true, it would seem to imply that Gadhafi's forces are in full flight. That could be a BIG IF.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM

Just heard a report from a BBC reporter in Sirte.

The town is still very much in Government control....Population seem to be staunch Gadaffi supporters.....green flags in every window.

One of the inhabitants when interviewed said, "they can come to talk(the insurgents)and we will listen, but if they come with guns, they will be met with guns"

This leaves the NATO terrorists with a slight predicament.....if the insurgents attack Sirte and the civilian population, will the terrorists feel obliged to defend the inhabitants of Sirte by incinerating the insurgents in the same manner as they did Col Gadaffi's troops?

You are only allowed three guesses unfortunately

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: melodeonboy
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

Sorry for the thread drift, but the question of why we spell Gaddafi's name in a variety of ways is very simple. As Arabic uses a different script from ours and has, for many of its letters, an inexact correspondence to our phonetic system, we transliterate Arabic names into what we think is the nearest equivalent. This explains why there are, for example, so many different spellings of the name "Mohammed". Even by reading Gaddafi's name with a "d", we are actually pronouncing the letter with a North African accent. In Standard Arabic it would be a soft "th" (as in "with").

It also works the other way round. Westerners may find their names spelt differently in Arabic by different Arabic speakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:14 PM

akenaton-

As I cautioned that initial report from Al Jazeera was wildly optimistic. Here's what that press source says now:


"Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi are resisting an advance by Libyan rebels towards the embattled Libyan leader's hometown of Sirte in the fiercest clashes since the start of a sweeping offensive that has brought a string of coastal towns under opposition control.

The rebels, backed by international coalition air strikes, have advanced largely unchecked since Friday but claims in Benghazi, the rebel's eastern stronghold, earlier on Monday that Sirte had also fallen were premature.

Opposition fighters are now engaged in clashes about 100km east of the city, with pro-Gaddafi forces shelling their front lines.

Fighting is ongoing at Nawfaliya, about 180km east of Sirte, where opposition forces say they have come upon a heavily mined road. Pro-Gaddafi forces have dug into positions near the front line, and are shelling opposition fighters.

Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from the east of Nawfaliya, said: "I've not been able to confirm that there has actually been an advance in the town itself [Sirte]. They [rebels] managed to get really close to Sirte but they didn't get in."

"Sirte will not be easy to take," said General Hamdi Hassi, an opposition commander from the city of Bin Jawad.

"Now, because of NATO strikes on [the government's] heavy weapons, we're almost fighting with the same weapons."

'We're manoeuvring'

Fawzi Bukatif, the commander of the Martyr's Brigade, part of the forces battling Gaddafi, told Al Jazeera: "We're manoeuvring ... we are starting ... we are checking what kind of forces they have there but we are standing at Hagela now - almost 100km from Sirte."

Bukatif said the rebels' progress has been hampered by a lack of weapons as they rely on "old Russian weapons".

"The ... problem we have is we have run out of weapons," he said.

"You know our weapons are traditional ones; the old ones; the Russian weapons. We need ammunition. We need new weapons. We need anti-tanks; we do not have facilities [but] we have the soldiers left behind by Gaddafi ...

"If we do have weapons and ammunitions that we need at the moment, we can move strongly and faster."

Fresh fighting continued further west in rebel-held Misurata, where rebels admitted that Gaddafi forces had gained control of part of the town after days of heavy fighting and despite air strikes on Saturday by French and British forces.

"Part of the city is under rebel control and the other part is under the control of forces loyal to Gaddafi," a spokesman told the Reuters news agency.

Rebels dimissed reports that a ceasefire had been declared by the Libyan foreign ministry in Misurata and that anti-terrorism units there had stopped firing at rebel forces.

Saddun al-Misrati, a member of the rebels' revolutionary committee, told Al Jazeera: "We rubbish this announcement ... Nothing that they say will make a difference on the ground."

Nine people were killed overnight by snipers and shelling by pro-Gaddafi forces, according to a doctor in Misurata, while a resident told Reuters that 24 people had been wounded in mortar attacks by government forces.

A Libyan government spokesman claimed Misurata had been liberated.

Al Jazeera's James Bays has been following the rebel offensive, which has seen them claim the towns of Ajdabiya, Brega, Ras Lanuf and Bin Jawad.

Stretched lines

Speaking from Bin Jawad, Bays said it was uncertain where the frontline was. People coming along the coastal road from Sirte said Gaddafi forces were gathered around 60km outside the city, positioned in trees, our correspondent said.

The speed of the rebel advance has stretched lines of communications and created logistical problems, said Bays. One problem is a lack of electricity, which means that petrol pumps do not work.

"At petrol stations they're using plastic bottles on strings down into the tank below the station to pull up fuel," said Bays.

The rebels' advance along the coast has triggered exuberant celebrations in towns along the route such as Ajdabiya with rebel fighters firing their weapons in celebration.

But government forces appear to have been withdrawing their heavy armour, rather than engaging with the rebels.

There were reports on Sunday of a column of military vehicles, including truck-mounted anti-aircraft guns, seen leaving Sirte in the direction of Tripoli, accompanied by dozens of civilian cars carrying families, according to a Reuters reporter in the vicinity.

The opposition's National Council has said it expects a major battle to occur in the area around Tripoli, as opposed to at Sirte.

NATO command

Meanwhile, international air strikes continued on Monday with British Tornado aircraft attacking and destroying Libyan government ammunition bunkers in the Sabha area of the southern desert, the British defence ministry said.

'Storm Shadow missiles were launched against ammunition bunkers used to re-supply Libyan government troops attacking civilians in the north of the country, including Misurata,' it said in a statement."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

We have an imperial presidency; King Obama has declared war unilaterally and twisted the arms of so-called allies to do it.

99 sorties are being carried out by the U.S. The other members of NATO report to American generals.

The problem arises when we don't know who the rebels are or why they chose
violence over non-violent resistance as was done in Tunisia, Egypt and now
Yemen, Bahrain and soon Saudi Arabia.

Will these rebels replace a brutal dictator with another brutal dictatorship?
When guns and weaponry rule, these means continue into politics.

Mass slaughter is done throughout the world in Indonesia (Copasset army),
Darfur, Ivory Coast, and human rights violations in China, Saudi Arabia,
Israel, and many countries in the world. Why isolate Libya just "because we can."?

Obama didn't think this out carefully enough, that is why he doesn't have the support for this effort, has possibly split the peace movement down the center,
reinforced Pax Americana in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, and elsewhere.

Ultimately the thousands of lives he claims he has saved may be more costly in human lives down the road. You don't think there will be American "boots on the ground"? Wanna' bet?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM

Well, I watched a few of these 'rebels' last night on the news and I shuddered, because most of 'em looked off their rockers to me. I truly can't see Libya settling down to Tea and Toast if MwaMwa Qu'dafi is blown to Kingdom Come one evening...

I think Civil War will rage for many years.

I think Uncivil War will also rage for many years, whilst the West tries to gain control of the Oil, which is what this is *really* about, let's face.

If they moved MwaMwa and his People to Zimbawbe, then left them there, all killing each other, the West wouldn't bat an eyelid...They'd just shrug their shoulders and go "Mymy, MwaMwa's at it again, deardear" and order another round of cucumber sandwiches, whilst making deals with Mugabe and his People, who of course, they'd moved over to Libya as the second part of The Oily Plan of The New World Disorder......

"TMWATN -- the man with a thousand names" ...coming to a cinema near you very soon............


Sorry, I don't mean to make light of this situation, but it sucks, it REALLY sucks...and the fallout will be catastrophic in the long run, I fear...Hopefully, I'm wrong though...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:33 PM

From Stringsinger:

"...why they chose violence over non-violent resistance as was done in Tunisia, Egypt and now Yemen, Bahrain and soon Saudi Arabia."

This article gives a timeline of the start of the peaceful protest and how it turned into the war that is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM

bobad, have you heard when Bouchard takes over command?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:11 PM

There seems to be some wrangling among member states about which parts of the mission NATO should assume. Some current info here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 09:47 AM

As rebels go, this lot really do look a right shower. I can't see that arming them would be any guarantee of their winning.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 10:02 AM

Poster is Akenaton, who needs to reset his cookie. -Joe Offer-

---

Arm the insurgents?    Surely they must be kidding!

Is Cameron really as mad as Blair? If it wasn't so pathetically sad it would be funny, just like something out of Monty Python.

Re the UN resolution, do they just alter the wording to suit themselves?
"Protect civilians" has now become "protect civilians under attack from Col Gadaffi's forces.......the insurgents with their mobile rocket launchers are evidently classed as civilians

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 05:34 PM

Poster is Akenaton, who needs to reset his cookie. -Joe Offer-

---

Those who advise arming them, look even more of a shower Mr McGrath.

Pleased to see you back amonst us BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 08:23 PM

Gaddafi's foreign minister Moussa Koussa has defected to England. This is not surprising as his body language, while reading official government pronouncements, betrayed his shame and discomfort with the words he was being forced to parrot.

It is also being reported that four other of Gaddafi's most senior officials have also defected.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:03 AM

Poster is Akenaton, who needs to reset his cookie. -Joe Offer-

---

It has been reported that CIA operatives have been working with the insurgents for over two weeks.

Also that Mr Obama has signed a "secret" order which allows the arming of the insurgents.

Looks like civil war and the deaths of thousands is inevitable.
For a result which will in all likelyhood, turn out just as Iraq did.
Repression of women, government by religious dogma.

We are hypocritical terrorists in word and deed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:51 AM

Apparently Mr Kousa has announced that he 'intends' to sever his links with the regime. Unless, presumably, the regime wins. In which case he's just here for a spot of shopping.

I agree, McGrath. The rebels are starting to remind me of the schoolboys in 'Gregory's Girl'.

If they're really serious maybe they should try capturing a post office. Worked for Patrick Pearse. Disrupted the supply of stamps in Dublin for an entire week.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:11 AM

"I can't see that arming the rebels" would guarantee success. And NATO now says arming them would not be covered by the UN mandate.

Brilliant.

So let's watch them lose in slow motion-- ( Mudcat hand-wringing expertise again is here again in all its glory.)

Rather than doing what needs to be done:



Air support all the time--including when they are attacking Gadhafi's forces.

Recognizing them as the only legitimate Libyan government.

Arming them with weapons at least comparable to those of Gadhafi's forces.

Training them.

And providing intelligence.



And doing all this immediately,   Since time is not on the rebels' side.

The longer we wait to do all this, the more we will hear about how NATO countries can't afford this, and the more likely NATO will give up.

I would in fact hazard a guess that part of Mudcat opposition to helping the rebels militarily is the fact that in the UK the government is Conservative.   Conversely part of the reason some US posters support it is that Obama is in charge here.


Since if the rebels are finally defeated--with the bloodbath just postponed from a few weeks ago--there will be huge recriminations against the Western governments which did not follow through with actions necessary to prevent it.   And those Western governments' popularity with their own citizens will take a huge plunge.

Which is just fine with some UK posters.

And not fine with US posters--though I think US posters who support the rebels probably do so for the right reasons--preventing the bloodbath and preventing Gadhafi from any claim on the $33 billion frozen--which he would then use to build himself a nuclear bomb, among other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:34 AM

Ron-

There is no easy answer evidently in the short run, since the short run has crumbled once again in the face of trained and more heavily armed Gadhafi forces.

"Training them...And doing all this immediately" has its own contradictions. I think what's happening now is the recognition on the part of the US and its allies that if they want the Rebels to succeed they'll have to invest more time and money in training and arming them. It's also possible by demonstrating that resolve (by leaks to the media) that more of Gadhafi's inner circle will desert him, salvaging what they can.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM

One more thing:

Western commentators have to stop talking about how x percentage of the rebels are al-Qaeda fighters.

If the rebels lose, who will be there to pick up the pieces?   No points for guessing al-Qaeda.--that's too obvious--except to those who refuse to see.

If the rebels lose that will drive the survivors--and supporters throughout the world-- right into the arms of al-Qaeda.


Look, it's simple:   either this is a fight worth fighting or it's not. Our leaders have said that it is worth it. So they have to do what's necessary to win--and we have to support them in this--and pressure them to follow through.

And stop whining about it.

And perhaps we'll also learn about the problems of war by committee.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

As I said, time is not on the rebels' side.

The time for coming up with objections is over--in fact long gone.

Hess defected in 1941.   How much longer did the war go on?

This one is much more likely to turn out right soon--if the West does what's necessary.

We may devoutly wish for the Gadhafi regime to self-destruct.   But Gadhafi has told us--more than once--how likely that is. It's time to believe him.

And i still say a $10 million price on his head--informally offered to his mercenaries--might well do wonders.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM

An ex British soldier who served in Northern Ireland was on Radio 4 this morning, he read out an article that appeared in an Issue of the Republican News he obtained while serving over there, this paper was printed by Sinn Fein.

It appears Moussa Koussa was a hero of republicans for the part he played when the IRA secured quantities of weapons and explosives from Gaddafi's Libya in the 1980's.

It appears he praised republicans for their attacks on the British Government due to their support and assistance of America during the US Air Force's bombing attacks on Tripoli and Benghazi in 1986.

Maybe they will take him into their care.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:33 AM

"And perhaps we'll also learn about the problems of war by committee."

Yeah to that, Ron. A camel is a horse designed by a committee.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 11:28 AM

Camels find that sort of specist rhetoric quite offensive, Roscoe. You should hear what they say about horses!

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:58 PM

Listen up you banana-eating hairy old goat--keep this shit up and I will tell Little Hawk that you're pissing on the parade and HE'LL deal with you!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:59 PM

It's quite possible that most Libyans prefer the rebels. On the other hand it is also possible that most Libyans prefer Gaddafi. Nobody in public life or the media seem in the least interesting in addressing this question, or looking seriously at what kind of Libya is likely to emerge if the rebels win. Those are important questions.

Either way it's pretty clear that the only possibility of a military victory by the rebels would lie with pretty massive military intervention that would go far beyond trying to prevent civilian casualties - and which would in fact, as in Iraq or Afghanistan, involve inflicting very sizeable civilian casualties. Even if that were seen as desirable, it isn't on the cards.

Some kind of stalemate ceasefire probably with a de facto partition seems to be the most likely outcome. Since the oil, and therefore the money, is in the East, that doesn't leave Gaddafi with a great deal to play with, and his prospects of holding on for very long do not seem that great.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:12 PM

McGrath-

What you are ignoring in your post is how dynamic war fronts are in an environment such as Libya. The nation, what's left of it, is clustered along the coastal highway. And the front can change dynamically back and forth hundreds of miles, as it did several times in World War 2 and as it has done in the last few weeks.

There may be a final strawman who breaks this camel's back, and Gadhafi is down for the count. And then there might well be mass confusion of who's in charge of the country then.

I don't think there will be a stalemate but the process may take another month to work itself out.

It would still be a major political mistake for Western powers to send in anything else but trainers and spotters. I doubt if the Arab League quite has the stomach to send in its own "peace-keeping" force but that would be an interesting twist. Someone needs to re-arm and re-supply the rebels.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM

"Someone needs to re-arm and re-supply the rebels."

WHY?.....and who the fuck are the rebels? What do they really want?
Are they larger in number than those who support their government.
Why is it any of OUR business, when dozens of other dictators who are "friends" of ours, treat their people much worse than Gadaffi?

American bombers have already blown Gadaffi's infant daughter to pieces, now we are practicing terrorism against him and his people.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:44 AM

Sorry Joe :0).....that was me again.....got my N de P fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:54 AM

"American bombers have already blown Gadaffi's infant daughter to pieces..."

So when was this supposed to have happened?

You don't mean the 1986 retalliation for the bombing of several night clubs that hosted US military in Africa and Europe?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:03 PM

Exactly so pdq......my point is that we in the developed West, regularly practice terrorism......we hardly own the high ground!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:14 PM

300. Bombs away !

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:26 PM

"my point is that we in the developed West, regularly practice terrorism"

Yet you choose to live there and support it with your taxes and see no contradiction with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM

With regard to the 1986 bombing having killed Gadhafi's infant daughter, Wkipedia summary raises some questions:

"According to medical staff in the nearby hospital, two dozen people arrived in military uniform and two without uniform. Total Libyan casualties are estimated at 60, including casualties at the bombed airbases. However, the regime created a propaganda campaign with varying stories about killed civilians. For example, the regime's media claimed that Gaddafi's "adopted daughter" had been killed. The name "Hanna" was given to the press. Nobody had ever heard of such daughter. Information about her was also conflicting, for example, her age varied from 12 months to 6 years. Despite absurdity and variations of the stories, the campaign was so successful that a large proportion of the Western press reported the regime's stories as facts."

But there is little doubt that "some civilians" were killed in the retaliation bombing raid, as authorized by President Reagan.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM

He "chooses" to live there? ;-) Come on. That's a pointless remark, but one I hear people make often when they are looking to take a shot at someone over some political opinion the person has expressed.

It isn't that he chose to live there, bobad, it's that life itself placed him there when he was born, same as it did you, me, and millions of other people who were born in the western countries.

It's the hand he was dealt, and so he deals with it. He pays the taxes, because he has no choice about the matter. He is not obliged to agree with all the policies of the society he lives in just because he lives there.

For him to uproot his entire life and move somewhere else to some complete other culture just to satisfy your rhetorical need to take a shot at him would be...ridiculous. ;-D And even if he did move somewhere else...anywhere else...it's very probable that he would disagree with certain aspects of that society too. So would he then be obliged to move yet again to some other culture? And where would his search for total approval of a culture end? ;-D Nowhere, that's where.

He didn't choose anything about it. He IS there. Period. And he disagrees with his culture's political conduct in a number of respects. That does not mean he "supports" it with his taxes or any other crap like that nor is it a contradiction. It's a fact that arises out of the fact that life is not as dead simple as your jibe to Akenaton would appear to make it.

I also think that the West practices a great deal of terrorism...and I have no intention of moving away from here, because my whole life is here, my friends are here, and much that I love is here...nor do I support that terrorism when I pay my taxes. I simply pay my taxes because there's no way of avoiding doing so, that's all.

I accept the fact that I live in a complicated and imperfect world where things are not perfect and never will be, and there's not a hell of a lot I can do about that. Don't ask me why I don't move somewhere else, okay? Cos it's a damn silly question.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:25 AM

BBC news Sat.

Insurgents are using warplanes to bomb govt troops in "UN no fly zone"....civilians have been killed in rebel air strike.
UN arms embargoe does not seem to apply to insurgents who may already have been supplied with weapons in contravention of UN resolution.

We are using terrorism to affect regime change in what is basically an insurection, at a time when our own people are being punished for the failure of capitalism.

Could this be an organised distraction from what is being done to workers, pensioners, and the sick in the United Kingdom?

Mr Obama seems to have been right to pause and think hard about US involvement in Libya......unfortunately Hillary the Hawk is ready to strike, not only at Libya, but at Mr Obama himself.

As I said years ago inviting Hill n' Bill into his admin. was Mr Obama's biggest and terminal mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:43 AM

It was wrong to go into Libya. It was not thought out properly and they seem to have completely overlooked the 'rebels' are nothing more than local people who've got carried away with a spur of the moment idea, rather than a pre-planned and well thought out decision, to take back their country.

They were saying today on BBC News how the rebels are now being given AK47s, with no training..and guess what, in their excitement (and hysteria) they're firing these things off, wounding and killing each other and themselves...They seemed to find this almost er...puzzling.

Puzzling? WHY would they be feeling that way????

I've not got all the ins and outs as to why we're over there, but I tell you this, it's got hardly anything to do with protecting yer average Libyan person in the street..I find it all quite sinister, to be honest..

Never mind, I expect that eventually MwaMwa and his government will all flee to......England...and set up home over here...and Mr. Al Libyani will take over, issue AK47s to ALL his citizens, increase the price of oil by 600% and life will be just hunkydory for everyone.

I wonder if we're going to give Mousa Kousa a Council House? I've heard there's one going next door to Chicken Licken here in Torquay...and apparently Turkey Lurkey and Henny Penny from Liverpool, have put in a request for him to come and live in their road, as they feel it would be great to buy Mousa Kousa an alcohol-free beer down at their local...

Oh dear me...what an horrendous palava, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM

Evidently the Rebels have driven Gadhafi forces out of Brega again according to this detailed report from Al Jazeera: click here for report!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:21 AM

Charley, apparently the rebels are reporting that they have retaken Brega but the report you linked to dates from March 3.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM

Bodad-

Have to be more careful. Thanks for the correction.

I was wondering why there was a report of a Libyan jet doing a bombing run.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM

So now supposedly the rebels have asked for a ceasefire.    How's that for throwing a monkeywrench into the business?    There are some conditions, one being Cadhafi's forces withdrawing from cities they are now besieging.   Another:   "freedom of expression for our western brothers".

Source: al-Jazeera 2 April 2011.

So we'd probably take this news with a sizable grain of salt, to say the least, unless confirmed elsewhere.



Of course the report is true and if Gadhafi rejects these terms, it might give the rebels a stronger hand---more clearly the moral high ground.

Which might result in more direct military aid from the West.

But now we're obviously into the area of total speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 05:38 PM

"As far as applying the Gaddafi Precedent goes, there would be a stronger case for action against Hamas in Gaza than against Israel."

When you compare the amount of casualties of the Palestinians,
they are far greater than what Israel has suffered. In their actions, there might not be that much difference between Gaddafi and Netanyahu. Throw in Copasset in Indonesia,
Kalifa in Bahrain, Assad in Syria, Salleh in Yemen and Bush in the U.S. And now we have a runaway President who would be king.

As to the terrorist label, there are so many examples in the world from so many countries that it becomes a matter of partisan name-calling and the term has lost its meaning.

The argument for bombing anyone today becomes sheer sophistry.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM

Stringsinger, tell me how many people inside Gaza have been killed by Hamas. Tell me how many people have been killed inside Israel by the Israeli Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM

Back to Libya, Fourteen insurgents and medics killed yesterday in UN backed air strikes.....by accident of course.

Arab opinion hardening against "Western involvement"

Cameron, Sarkozy and the other adventurers could find they have bet the wrong horse once again.

Mr Obama's hesitancy may be vindicated and Hillary shown for what she really is.

This is getting interesting

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 07:02 AM

"Friday's air strike came as rebels shot tracer fire into the air to celebrate the entry of an advance column into Brega.

"It was a mistake" by the rebels, Khamis said. "The aircraft thought they were coming under attack and fired on the convoy."

Speaking to Al Jazeera earlier, Mustafa Gheriani, a Transitional National Council spokesman, said the loss of lives on Friday was very much regretted.

"However, we understand that collateral damage may also take place and we do accept it, because we look at the big picture which saving more lives.

"So a few people being victims of circumstances or of being at the wrong time or the wrong place it is more or less very bad luck," Gheriani said.

Al Jazeera

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:58 AM

The people who are at the "wrong time and the wrong place" are the coalition of the unwilling......US!

Mr Obama actually seems too decent for the politics game.
He is being pushed into another "dumb" war by his arch enemy Warrior princess Clinton and her associates in the White House.
Playing politics with peoples lives.

Beware America!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM

Teribus, the Israeli government has second-class citizens in it's midst. Those who have been banned to the hinterlands (bantustans) have been mass slaughtered. The age-old
question prevails. Who was there first?

Not likely that ardent Zionists are about to kill each other. They reserve that right for others.

With this logic, the white men killed no Native Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM

The problem in taking sides in a civil war is that the US doesn't really know who they are supporting. The so-called rebels might be just as dictatorial and authoritarian as Gaddafi.

The trouble is that when you try to resolve differences with weaponry, the risk is run
of an out-of-control outcome.

There are hawks who religiously subscribe to this mode of solving political problems but they create as many or more problems as they solve.

The biggest mistake they made in Egypt is to trust their military to make decisions.

The Egyptian military love to check that all their women are virgins.

What about the Second World War? Could it have been resolved differently?
Evidence is coming out now that says that it could have with a greater understanding of peaceful non-violent resistance. I refer everyone to Gene Sharp. He can be obtained by search engines.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:31 PM

"The problem in taking sides in a civil war is that the US doesn't really know who they are supporting. The so-called rebels might be just as dictatorial and authoritarian as Gaddafi."

Don't you mean that the UN doesn't know who it's supporting?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:05 PM

Hey Stringsinger we are talking here about the "Gaddafi Precedent" i.e. a Government deliberately turning its armed forces against the population of the country. Now stop f**king about and tell me how many of their own population have Hamas killed in Gaza, and how many of thier own population have Israel killed in Israel. Seems a pretty logical question to ask, now give me an answer, don't wriggle.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM

Teribus-

I think you might agree that unless NATO forces resumes aggressive bombing of Gadhafi's front-line troops, the Rebels may collapse entirely. At this point it seems to me that the Rebels need to establish some kind of defensible front-line position while they regroup for training and new supplies. Of course front lines in Libya appear to be endemically permeable.

No Western country in its right mind is going to commit more than trainers and special forces on the ground. What do you think the prospect is for the Rebels now?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:26 PM

Regis Debray wrote the book on little wars. This is NOT a little war. When disorganized (read undisciplined troops) engage disciplined troops, even at or near equal strengths, the disciplined troops win. We tend to think that 'will' matters. It indeed does, but only when that will is supported by arms. Tanks vs men: who wins? Many who post here likely remember 1956 or 1989 when that was demonstrated and shown beyond doubt.

The UN mandate has laid out the rules of this engagement. The rebels are ill-disciplined troops. The government troops are poor as troops, but they have practiced (I prefer practised as the verb). The reason Castro's--and yes, 'Che's'--people won was due to the inability of the Batista government to keep it's troops in line. Soldiers will die in those kinds of fights if the ideology is entrenched. AND they will make their defeaters wish they'd never got into it in the first place.

The French at Dien Bien Phu fought valiantly. An acquaintance of mine was in the FFL, and he knew and knows the requirements of being in a 'unit' like that. Part of the deal is that you volunteer and then train and then do the job. Period. If you ain't game for that--and it always seems like a good idea at the time--then don't join, and 'Don't cry for me Argentina'.

Problem here is that the troops are big on rhetoric and short on munitions, discipline, training and 'end game philosophy'. When men--and now women (a philosophy with which I disagree), although I think women should also have the right to 'die for their country'--and although I agree with Patton that it's my responsibility to make some other bastard die for his country--unless there is a unified command, there is NO command.

The rebels may die in a 'last stand' (and that will be an example of a superior force being met by resolve and study by Tonka Wakon (Crazy Horse in my world): they will not do so because of lack of resolve; they will do so because of a lack of arms. And we will say later that there was nothing we could do.

Frank, a man whose philosophy I admire has three times refused to tell me what WE should do when in the process of non-violently protesting an egregious wrong the people against whom we protest hit us. Well, I suppose we are supposed to get hit. Not me, and not anymore. Been there, done it, and fuck that.

Think as you wish, but please understand we are not cohesive in these terms. We did this before in Hungary and Czechslovakia. We were wrong then, and we would be equally wrong now.

imo

Those wishing to castigate me for this view may do so, but two people are the only ones I will answer: Teribus and Little Hawk..

No offense to anyone else.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 07:43 AM

This report just in:

"Reporting from Tripoli, Libya— Italy on Monday formally recognized the rebel government of eastern Libya, dealing yet another blow to the embattled regime of Col. Moammar Kadafi.

Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said Rome would open an office in rebel-held territory and formally recognize the Benghazi-based Libyan National Council as the only representative of the country, which Italy once ruled as a colonial ward and to which it maintains deep cultural and economic ties. Italy joins France as the second Western country to formally recognize the rebel government."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 10:20 AM

To answer your question Charlie, I see the rebels located in the east of the country's cause no different now from when the UN resolution was passed. The UN resolution is so worded that it makes it very easy for those involved to provide an umbrella of air cover to act and prevent Gaddafi's forces overwhelming the rebels in Benghazi. The fighting by rebel forces in the west of Libya is a little harder to support as they are already fighting inside the city of Misrata.

How I think it should be played for here on in?

1: It was extremely important that France, Qatar and now Italy have officially recognised the rebel ruling council as the "Government of Libya". That semantically overcomes the accusation about interfering in a civil war and bi-lateral agreements can be made between those "Governments".

2: Gaddafi apparently if reports are to be believed is furiously casting round to find a means of ending this. If both sides agree to hold talks (Note: Agree to hold talks - Not actually hold talks) then the UN can order in "boots-on-the-ground" in the form of a "Peacekeeping Force" and that will form a physical barrier between the warring factions. Normally these troops are pretty ineffectual but the force can be tailored to meet the needs of the situation. Ideally this force would be provided by the member states of the Arab League but it must not initially include troops from any "western" nation. Once Gaddafi's forces attack the "Peacekeepers" as I am sure that they would do, then the gloves can come off and other troops can be deployed to help the UN contingent on the ground and take on the aggressors, this basically is Misrata's only hope and it is important as it is one of Gaddafi's two oil terminals.

3: Time is the key, already the rebels are beginning to form a more disciplined fighting force. The rebels are being reinforced in terms of arms and supplies from Egypt, whereas Gaddafi's forces are becoming more and more isolated internationally, unfortunately there are massive stockpiles of arms and munitions inside Libya. Airstrikes under the present "Rules of Engagement" have hit some of these but it must be assumed that Gaddafi's forces still possess sufficient material to engage the rebels. Alternatively Gaddafi's troops hurried offensive may indicate that sufficient of these stores have been destroyed and he must defeat the rebels quickly, or grab as much as the country as possible before he reaches the point where he must agree to talk.

4: Gaddafi's forces have altered their tactics and have abandoned conventional strikes using armour and artillery, they too now roam about in "technicals" and must appear very similar to the rebels they are fighting to observers and from the air. This is where UAV's might come into the picture as they have an extended "loiter time" over the battlefield and can "pick-off" targets at will.

5: Italy relies strongly on oil & gas from Libya, as do Germany and France, so for Europe the only outcome that is in anyway acceptable to them is one in which Gaddafi is removed, because should he survive this "rebellion" then any idea of the rapproachment with the west can be thrown right out of the window.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM

My sympathies were originally with the civilians who launched peaceful protests against the Gadhafi regime. The regime chose to respond with violence. Since then the situation has grown more and more complicated, and I frankly don't know what to make of it now. (shrug) Nor do I know quite what to make of the various western responses to it. Perhaps they find it as confusing as I do. ;-) I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

At any rate, I have no stake at present in arguing with anyone here about it. I'm simply watching to see what will happen next.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 02:13 PM

Here's today's update from Al Jareera with regard to Rebel efforts in and around Brega and the successful evacuation via a NATO ship from Misurata of hundreds of injured fighters and civilians: Click here for article

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: J-boy
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:11 AM

War sucks. But more importantly it is stupid. We have to quit this ridiculous game before it's too late. We are living on borrowed time. Our luck is about to run out.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:22 AM

"War sucks. But more importantly it is stupid."

Just as well then that we are not at war with anyone isn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: J-boy
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:27 AM

"Mankind must put an end to war or war must put an end to mankind."-JFK. He knew the absurdity and horror of it up close.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: goatfell
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:57 PM

the bully boys of the wworld are at it again and then there will 'freindly' fire so watch out you british

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM

How cynically Teribus promotes the manipulation of others.

I suppose even he will admit that if conditions worsen in the UK or US due to the recent failure of the capitalist system, unemployment rates rise, public services are attacked, pensions and savings disappear.......should an armed socialist insurrection arise to combat these attacks, our government would react in exactly the same manner as Col Gadaffi's regime. The army would be let loose on the insurgents.....they would be massacred in the "National Interest"

During a lifetime of politics watching, I have observed that "Democracy", "Sovereignty", "Freedom"etc, revert to the status of words with many meanings.....when the system or regime is under threat

To attemt to implant Western style "democracy" in Libya, is as mad as our recent adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan....a gift to the fundamentalists of Islam.

Many observers see the hands of Al Quaeda behind the insurgency, and there may be some truth in that, but I see a portion of the insurgents as young people doing what young people do, without much regard for the consequences.

I see the vultures circling over Libya, as they circled over Iraq,

A pudgy spoiled public shoolboy...(Bunter Cameron) hoping to earn his spurs by bringing down his very own Saddam.
An unwilling Obama pushed forward by the White House female birds of prey.
An unpopular French president drooling over oil rights for a victorious, murderous, Europe, and hovering over all, the black wings of Islamic fundamentalism".


We should all be ashamed of what we foster....and the shite we talk of human rights and equality.....welcome to the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:06 PM

Whether or not I agree with you, Ake, I do have one question.

What should the world do if TMWATNs wins and begin to execute the rebels forces?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:11 PM

Ake-

So lest I misunderstand you, do you have any criticism left for Col Gadaffi?

I may have missed some of his good points in the last 40 years.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM

Ehmm Ake, the capitalist system as failed many times, sometimes a damn sight worse than it's present woes, but guess what? It is a resilient, flexible and adaptable system that is not shackled to a whole load of political bullshit, so it keeps bouncing back - Same could not be said for the alternative Marxist Communist Socialist systems that always kept falling flat on their backsides but which never ever recover and get back up again.

Attempts to "implant western style democracy"? Where? Afghanistan was a democracy (had been since about 1929) before the Communist PDPA and the Soviet 40th Army completely screwed the place up. Iraq was given a completely free hand to establish its own assemblies and write their own constitution. In what way are "WE" (The big bad west) forcing anything on the people of Libya? None as far as I can see.

In the post you were responding to I was predicting not promoting anything, I was asked a direct question and I answered it, novel sort of a concept for most around here I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 03:50 AM

Cynicism Teribus?......How's this?
1: It was extremely important that France, Qatar and now Italy have officially recognised the rebel ruling council as the "Government of Libya". That semantically overcomes the accusation about interfering in a civil war and bi-lateral agreements can be made between those "Governments".

So we are to adopt insurgents and recognise them as the official govt, to undermine any regime we dont happen to like/agree with?
Very "democratic"!......Could this also be applied to "the Taliban"?
Sunni/Shia insurgents in Iraq?.... The IRA?....the list is endless.

As you appear to be doing a bit of uncharacteristic wriggling, maybe I can be allowed one little wriggle.
I was not advocating a socialist insurgency....just providing a debating point. Capitalism survives by searching out other resources and people to exploit, when a society becomes unsustainable.
We have just run out of options......I dont think it will be long before we see much civil unrest, and the democratic mask will surely slip.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM

Ake-

You evidently didn't notice my question above:

So lest I misunderstand you, do you have any criticism left for Col Gadaffi?

I may have missed some of his good points in the last 40 years.

Or is it irrelevant to this discussion?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM

I think it is a little irrelevant Charley.....as far as I am concerned, but others may wish to respond to that line.
I didn't mean to be discourteous in not answering....I just dont know if he is guilty of the crimes which he is supposed to have committed.

I do know that there is a huge question mark over the Lockerbie attrocity and in all likelyhood Gadaffi was not involved.

Just as a matter of interest, I was travelling to a greyhound track on the M6 not far from Lockerbie that night.
Our party heard the news on BBC radio and turned back.

I am quite impressed by the way Gadaffi has treated his people regarding Health and education compared to other leaders in that area, but if I had been a young Libyan, full of youthful protest, I might well have been amongst the insurgents.

I joined the Communist party at seventeen in protest, in the days when it meant the loss of your house and your job and I'm still a "believer" to a certain extent tho' I can now see the down side.

I dont believe we have any chance of living fulfilled lives under "liberal democracy" The whole thing is a circus.....a fantasy and a dangerous one at that.

The promotion of "democracy" now seems to be one of the main causes of death and destruction on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:20 PM

"So we are to adopt insurgents and recognise them as the official govt, to undermine any regime we dont happen to like/agree with?
Very "democratic"!......Could this also be applied to "the Taliban"?
Sunni/Shia insurgents in Iraq?.... The IRA?....the list is endless."

Yep that about covers it.

By the way it WAS APPLIED to the Taliban only in that instance they were playing the role Gaddafi is currently playing in Libya today.

It was applied in Iraq against the insurgents and foreign jihadi fighters "Sunni Awakening"

Talking about lauding "Democracy" Akenaton you old Commie You!!

Tell me when Gaddafi, or the Taliban for that matter ever stood for election?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:38 PM

Elections in themselves are no guarantee of achieving a genuine democracy. But they're a start... ;-)

I think our present elections in the USA, Canada, and the UK are largely a sham, a charade, and the reason I think that is that no matter which party gets elected you end up with substantially the same policies being enacted once they're in office. (there are trivial differences...but only trivial ones, in my opinion)

I think that's happening because all the (larger) parties have ended up being bought out by the financial elite, therefore they serve that financial elite, not the public who elects them.

And there's absolutely nothing the general public can do about it as things presently stand, because if all the major political parties tacitly serve the same entrenched special interests, then your vote is rendered meaningless.

Nevertheless....it's still a bit better than being ruled by a single autocratic dictator-for-life such as Mr Gadhaffi. ;-) Just thought I'd better mention that before anyone goes off the deep end and assumes I am saying something I'm not.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM

Let me add further emphasis to that...

It's still QUITE a bit better than being ruled by a single autocratic dictator-for-life such as Mr Gadhaffi.

However, I think what really has secured our civil rights and our generally peaceable societies in the English-speaking world is simply the long established social traditions those societies have been built upon, and which we are all accustomed to. We grow up with those traditions which include such rights as free speech, freedom of assembly, due process of law, and so on. That bulwark of tradition tends to maintain itself, and that is mainly what has protected us against the establishment of a violent dictatorship.

I don't think our fractious and divisive political parties have been of much assistance in maintaining our freedoms...although there is one good thing about them: they each serve as a watchdog on what the other is doing, and that's not the case in a single party state.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:03 PM

"Elections in themselves are no guarantee of achieving a genuine democracy. But they're a start"

And a damn sight better guarantee than you get from some person or some group that gains power by force of arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:45 PM

I would say that's generally correct.

The American revolutionaries siezed power by force of arms...and some of them wanted to crown George Washington as their first king! To Washington's everlasting credit, he did not take them up on that offer, and the revolution resulted in a representative government instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 10:40 PM

I did take us 20 years or so to work out the kinks in the model. Sometimes a George Washington or a Nelson Mandela is essential to the mix.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 10:59 PM

Ran across an interesting thesis on the topic:    author said that Chavez is a bosom buddy of Gadhafi:    a big reason being that he admires him for taking power in a coup, not an election.

Supposedly Chavez wishes he himself had done so.

In many ways, they are in fact birds of a feather.

Chavez does not appear so vicious--yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 11:14 PM

OK, Ake.

"Education" in Libya is a plus?

Only if your taste runs to no dissent--on pain of death.   Starting a political party is a capital offense.

And selective ignorance--teaching English and French, for instance, is banned.

But perhaps you think the masses don't need that anyway.


Just why do you think the rebels are heaviiy populated by intellectuals--and dissident military officers.?




Even Gadhafi's "heir apparent" has recognized the need for reform for quite a while.


Which is a big reason he is suspect among the real hard-core Gadhafi supporters==those who aren't just foreign mercenaries.

And a serious obstacle to his taking over smoothly if Gadhafi should leave the scene suddenly.

Which we should be encouraging.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 01:17 AM

I've known Ake for a good five or six years, and while we have occasional disagreements, he remains pretty much a pacifist and he's often been right that the West's motivations have been absolutely wrong. The invasion of Iraq for example--he spoke against that in 2003 while I was still buying into the propaganda as popped out by Cheney, Rumsfeld and that idiot that served two terms while being elected only once.

My hero said the following: "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

I expect Ake split a gut when he heard that. He was right, imo, that time. Imo, he's wrong this time, but in the words of Paul Newman in the movie "Hombre", that's to find out.

Trust things are good, Ake.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 03:58 AM

Cuba under Fidel is a country that has sustained itself against all the odds for fifty years.
We may have more material posessions than the cuban people, but I;m sure they are healthier,better educated.....and happier...in the real sense of the word.

Fidel was no "liberal", he was as hard as iron when he needed to be, to fight off capitalist insurrection.....but I am quite sure there is not a better loved leader anywhere in the world.

He is an example of a model which can work any where if the leader is true to his people.....and most importantly at this time, a model which is sustainable in a world of shrinking resources.

We must all realise that the "good times" in capitalist terms are gone forever, despite what Teribus exhorts us to believe.


Just as a personal footnote, this winter has been a dark an gloomy time Chez Ake, with family health matters to deal with.
Brucie....your words were as a ray of sunlight through to dark, you have been a good friend, there are very few with a heart so kind.
Many thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM

Cubans "healthier, happier...."

Not the ones in prison for imagined crimes against the regime.

And if the Cuban people are in such great shape, it sure is a mystery why so many have been so desperate to leave this socialist paradise--and some have even drowned in trying to do so.


Nor, as i said--, returning to the topic--, are quite a few Libyans overjoyed with their regime--quite a few seem to be willing to die opposing it.   Another mystery, I suppose--at least to those with ideological blinders on tight.



But I do hope things improve at your house, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:51 AM

And one also should consider the question of how much personal wealth that Gadhafi has managed to wring out of his economy in the past decades, and how this correlates with anyone's model of a socialist society. I don't think Libya scores very high on that test.

For years I was delighted to read about Tanzania's experiment with "African Socialism." They've still managed to avoid civil wars and wars with their neighbors and there doesn't seem to be one family reaping the lion's share of the economy. But Tanzania's economy is still marginal by most measurements. Still, it's done better than many more richly endowed African nations.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM

"Cuba under Fidel is a country that has sustained itself against all the odds for fifty years."

Well for the most part subsidised to the hilt by the USSR whilst practicing that favoured old communist art commonly known throughout the free world as "State Oppression".

"Fidel was no "liberal", he was as hard as iron when he needed to be, to fight off capitalist insurrection.....but I am quite sure there is not a better loved leader anywhere in the world."

"better loved" you have got to be joking!! "better loved" indeed - in a pigs ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 12:52 PM

Getting back to Libya. Evidently the NATO air strikes that the Rebels have been calling for have resulted in another incident in which Rebel fighters were injured or killed (from Al Jazeera):

"A NATO air attack has hit a Libyan rebel position near the eastern oil town of Brega, killing at least five fighters, according to rebel fighters and a hospital worker.

Thursday's attack also left at least 10 others wounded, witnesses and correspondents of the AFP news agency said.

Medical workers carried uniforms soaked in blood from one of hospital rooms. And some rebel fighters were weeping on their knees in the corridor.

It was the second time in less than a week that rebels blamed NATO for bombing their comrades by mistake. Thirteen died in an air raid not far from the same spot on Saturday.

A Reuters news agency reporter saw bloodstained stretchers being brought out of the hospital in Ajdabiya, where those wounded in the attack were being treated.

Ajdabiya lies about 80km from Brega."

"We were standing by our tanks and NATO fired two rockets at us," said one, Salem Mislat. "NATO are liars. They are siding with Gaddafi."

Such incidents will unfortunately be unavoidable as Gadhafi troops position more of their tanks and other heavy firepower within civilian areas. The civil war will only get more brutal.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM

I didn't realise NATO was engaged in a "civil war"

I take it that it would be quite alright if we were slaughtering young men under the control of Col. Gadaffi?

What right do we have to support one side in a "civil war"?
How do we know how many inhabitants of Libya support the Col, or how many support the insurgents?
Why do we not tell the truth about our military actions, do these people think we are totally stupid?

Gadaffi's regime may be harsh, but he appears to provide for his people better than most other states in the area.

He is also no more of a terrorist than Western leaders.....as I said earlier we all practice terrorism.
The targeting of Col. Gadaffi's troops is terrorism, designed to make his supporters change sides and force him out of power.

The really sick part is that it is perpetrated by people who will never go anywhere near Libya....have no interest in Libya or its people.....who have only self interest at heart.

I find this whole episode almost identical to the destruction of Iraq.....how can we forget so quickly the final excuse for our involvement in the deaths of a million men women and children

"It's because Saddam/Gadaffi is a BAD MAN"......Idiots!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:20 PM

Having seen Cuba, and Mexico, and Trinidad, I have to say that I think the Cubans have a far better society in most respects, and that their people are better off for it. None of those societies are perfect, they all have notable problems, and a great many people in ALL of them would like to get to North America for a great variety of personal reasons...but the Cubans, in my opinion, have by far the best society of the three. All of Latin America tries to "escape" to the southern USA, and for very similar reasons. Not just the Cubans. Yet critics of Cuba seem to conveniently forget that when they bring up the matter of Cubans who drown trying to reach Florida. Why does this set Cuba apart in any way? Hell, if the Mexicans or the Brazilians or the Guatemalans or the Costa Ricans, or any other Latin Americans were living such a short distance across that narrow strait from Florida, they'd be doing the same damn thing...without Cuban socialism to be quoted as a dire reason for why they are doing it.

And if you don't agree me...fine. (shrug) Who really cares anyway?   I'm just stating my opinion, based on my own direct experience and observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:30 PM

Charley.....do you really think Gadaffi's men should play fair and sit out in the desert waiting for some invisible assassin to press a button and blow them all to pieces?

Please try to understand what we are getting involved in.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:43 PM

1: NATO is NOT involved in supporting any one side in a "civil war". NATO's involvement in what is happening in Libya concerns protection of civilians and maintaining a "No-Fly Zone". Recently NATO has shown that it will engage and destroy anyone attempting to interfere with that mission irrespective of which side they are on.

2: "I take it that it would be quite alright if we were slaughtering young men under the control of Col. Gadaffi?"

Most certainly if they are attacking civilian targets or centres of population, or attempting to interfere with the enforcement of the "No-Fly Zone".

3: "How do we know how many inhabitants of Libya support the Col, or how many support the insurgents?"

Basically we don't, although it cannot be that many as the "good" Colonel and the "Father of the Revolution" has seen fit to hire and arm mercenary forces to fire on and kill his own people (Psst Ake I bet those killed and maimed don't love him)

4: "Why do we not tell the truth about our military actions, do these people think we are totally stupid?"

Well obviously you and I have been reading completely different accounts. According to you and others here "WE" supposedly are at war with Libya ("WE" of course are not) UNSCR 1973 tells you all that there is to be told. If you believe what MSM tells you then you are totally stupid.

5 "Gadaffi's regime may be harsh, but he appears to provide for his people better than most other states in the area."

Bullshit, but there again I forget you yearn for oppressive authoritarian regimes that exercise total control over the general population. Obviously a large proportion of the citizens of Libya feel differently to the extent that they are prepared to risk their lives to alter the state of things inside their country.

6: "The targeting of Col. Gadaffi's troops is terrorism, designed to make his supporters change sides and force him out of power."

If Colonel Gaddafi's troops and hired mercenaries are targeting and killing Libyan civilians then they are legitimate targets in accordance with the terms of UNSCR 1973. If actions taken by UN forces causes defections all well and good. If actions taken by UN forces causes Gaddafi to relinquish power then all well and good.

7: "I find this whole episode almost identical to the destruction of Iraq.....how can we forget so quickly the final excuse for our involvement in the deaths of a million men women and children"

Has Iraq been destroyed? I do not think so. Once again the "mythical million dead" is thrown into the discussion. Akenaton if you wish to claim that one million people have died in Iraq due to actions taken since March 2003 then prove it - don't quote "ESTIMATES FROM BATCH SAMPLED STUDIES" the Iraqi authorities put the numbe at around 150,000

By the bye "It's NOT because gaddafi's a bad man" It's because troops under Gaddafi's orders started gunning down his own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:56 PM

"my own direct experience".    Right.    Experience of Brazil, Costa Rica, etc. being geographically situated where Cuba is now.


Sorry, that's more absurd speculation, based on nothing but the poster's guess, just possibly influenced slightly by ideological blinders.

Let's start living in the real world.

Historically there has been huge migration to the US from Cuba, usually harshly opposed by Castro.

And by the way, let's actually return to the topic--which is not Cuba.   I will start a thread for Cuba, in hopes that this blind alley will disappear from this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:09 PM

It will end right now, Ron, because I have no intention of wasting my time tonight fighting with you about politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 03:25 AM

Teribus......I could explain for the hundredth time how we become enslaved by the capitalist system, just as much as by any dictatorship, or totalitarian regime, but no one is listening.

The truth is that humanity is a species addicted to gambling....and most of us love to play the lottery.....we convince ourselves that we can be the guy who wins the millions.....conveniently forgetting the millions who lose their £.

I would be much more interested in your views on the future of capitalism in the UK or US, given the situation we find ourselves in financially.

Now that we are owned by China and India, how long do you think it will be before we are all herded off to the abattoir, with "unsustainable" branded on our arses.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 08:15 AM

"I would be much more interested in your views on the future of capitalism in the UK or US, given the situation we find ourselves in financially.

Now that we are owned by China and India, how long do you think it will be before we are all herded off to the abattoir, with "unsustainable" branded on our arses."

Bit off topic here aren't we?

What situation do we find ourselves in, that we haven't been in many times before? Only difference is that we can work our way out of trouble your bloody idiotic central Government controlled marxist regimes couldn't.

"Now that we are owned by China and India"

Well of course we are not "owned by China, India" or anybody else, the USA most certainly isn't. You obviously have a very simple approach and outlook when it comes to money and debt. Do not look at GDP, GNP and compare that to what the country owes without taking into account what the OWNS.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 08:32 AM

Ake-

"do you really think Gadaffi's men should play fair and sit out in the desert waiting for some invisible assassin to press a button and blow them all to pieces?"

No, I was merely pointing out that now the job of destroying more of Gadhafi's heavy armament from the air is made more difficult to achieve given the fluid battle-line and similarity of fighting assets. And it's an open question whether NATO has a mandate to even provide close air support for a Rebel advance, assuming they had the communications needed to coordinate it. I suppose, at some point soon special forces embedded with the Rebels will provide that function. How to wage war is a learning process. So is waging peace.

France does appear to be now assuming more of a leadership role now within NATO, filling in for the withdrawn US assets. They certainly have a more direct interest in maintaining a supply of oil to their country from Libya than we do.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 10:44 PM

"whether NATO has a mandate..."

Oh brother, if we (and especially NATO) are determined to agonize about that, that clinches it:
guaranteed stalemate--until the rebels get disgusted and give up.

Either it is worth toppling Gadhafi or it is not.

And if it isn't, just why did the West say over and over that it was?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 11:04 PM

Ron-

Yes, that's the problem.

There are some wonderful Rebel spokespeople out there, and some well-intentioned NATO interveners as well, and they're all trying to figure out how to work with whatever else is out there to send Kadhafi off to Venezuela.

It's a little late to send Teddy Roosevelt in to lead the charge. Hillary might be up to it but Obama has a cooler head.

Hopefully somebody will get tired of the debate and just do it.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 11:53 PM

Gentlemen, lest we get carried away with our own rhetoric, NATO's mission is NOT to help the rebels. It's mission is to help protect civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:30 AM

Sorry, Bruce.   If NATO does nothing but "protect civilians" the conflict will never end--until the rebels give up.

Without more than the "protect civilians" mandate, the rebels are doomed.

If we accept that, then fine.

But their blood will be on our hands, just as much as when we encouraged rebels in 1991 in Iraq, then stood back and watched them slaughtered.

And after all, if they are in fact rebelling, they are no longer "civilians".

That's why that formulation is a disaster--unless we are willing to see Gadhafi resume his iron rule.

Which I don't think we should.

Alea jacta est.   And we should realize that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,99
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 11:38 AM

Then the UN and then Nato will have to amend the present ROE, Ron. I agree with you that TMWATN has to go.

The following is from April 6:

Libya targeted civilian protesters - war crimes court

Luis Moreno Ocampo is investigating Col Gaddafi, his sons and close aides

The chief prosecutor said the plans had been a reaction to street protests that led to the fall of the Tunisian regime.

Luis Moreno Ocampo is expected to request arrest warrants for Col Muammar Gaddafi, his sons and close aides.

Nato has vowed to do all it can to protect civilians after rebels accused it of failing to protect Misrata city.

"Misrata is our number one priority," Nato deputy spokeswoman Carmen Romero told the AFP news agency on Wednesday.

She added that alliance warplanes had hit Col Gaddafi's military assets around Libya's third largest city on Monday.

"We have a clear mandate and we will do everything to protect the civilians of Misrata," Ms Romero said, referring to the UN resolution that permits "all necessary measures" to defend Libya's population.

'Nothing left'

The rebels have been pushed eastward, beyond the oil town of Brega
On Tuesday, rebel commander Gen Abdul Fattah Younis complained that bureaucracy was causing Nato to take hours to respond to calls for air strikes.

"[Nato] is letting the people of Misrata die every day," he told reporters in the de facto rebel capital Benghazi. "If Nato should wait another week, there will be no more Misrata."

In The Hague on Tuesday, Mr Moreno-Ocampo said: "We have evidence that after the Tunisia and Egypt conflicts in January, people in the regime were planning how to control demonstrations inside Libya.

"The planning at the beginning was to use tear gas and [if that failed to work]... shooting," he told Reuters.

Doctors said last week that at least 200 people had been killed there since the uprising began on 17 February - a figure likely to have risen in recent days.

Nato says international air strikes have reduced Col Gaddafi's military capabilities by nearly a third, but his forces have deliberately moved weaponry into civilian areas to hamper air strikes.

A Nato-led coalition mandated by the UN to protect civilians is enforcing a no-fly zone and attacking ground targets. It accuses Gaddafi forces of sheltering weapons in civilian areas.


The oil tanker is a welcome sight for Libyan rebels
Rebel forces in the east of the country have retreated after heavy bombardment from Col Gaddafi's army, the BBC's Wyre Davies says from the front line, near the town of Ajdabiya.

In the past 24 hours, heavy and accurate shelling from Gaddafi troops has pushed the disorganised and poorly-equipped rebel army back to the fringes of the town, our correspondent adds.

It is a clear indication that without the protective cover of Nato air strikes, they would find it almost impossible to take the next town of Brega, never mind marching on Tripoli and removing Col Gaddafi from power, he adds.

In a boost to the rebels on Tuesday, a tanker arrived at the eastern port of Tobruk to pick up the first consignment of oil to be exported from the rebel-held region.

The Greek-owned ship is capable of carrying more than $100m (£61m) worth of oil.

Since the revolt against Col Gaddafi's rule began nearly two months ago, exports of Libya's main commodity have collapsed, driving up the price of oil to a two-and-a-half year high.

Also on Tuesday, the Gaddafi government made senior diplomat Abdelati Obeidi its new foreign minister, replacing Moussa Koussa, who sought refuge on the UK last week.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 11:45 AM

Guest 99-

Thanks for the update.

How are you related to Guest 999? Is there also a Guest 9?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:38 AM

A Nato spokesman has said, "It is our mission to protect ALL civilians in Libya". I take it that these words mean ....including civilians who support Col. Gadaffi.

This in response to questions over the destruction of insurgent tanks(by mistake) and the deaths of fourteen insurgents.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:41 AM

Do the supporters of the insurgency here, believe that the pro Gadaffi civilians have as much right to Nato protection as those who support the the insurgency......for whatever reason?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:55 AM

This one really is about oil.

In the early 70's Libya doubled the price of oil taken by the British and US oil extractors. At the same time, they took a 51% stake in all oilfield developments. The US in particular have never forgiven them for this and have sought to oust the regime ever since.

Qaddafi set up the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya on a strictly Islamic basis. UK and US don't care for the way Islamist states work, so haven't forgiven them for that either.

Two significant smearings of Libya have happened; the French airliner downed by a bomb loaded in Congo, and Locherbie. The bomb in Congo was loaded in Brazzaville by a Congolese anti-government rebel. Libya had no involvement in Congo, but the French investigators "extracted a confession" (how?) from the Congolese rebel to implicate 6 important Libyans. The Libyans were found guilty in absentia by the Parisian court, extradition having been sensibly refused by Libya. (France had a dispute with Libya at the time over the Chadian issue).

People who know more about Locherbie than I do believe that Iranians were responsible, but the desperation to pin everything on to Libya meant that the guilty verdict was in place probably before the trial started - see Steve Shaw's earlier posts.

Russia will not touch this latest UN move hence only NATO (UK, US and France, surprise surprise) are involved - and just how quick were they to jump in! Russia believes that the problems throughout the Arab world are inspired and supported by Al Qaeda, and are bemused that Britain and America are bombing on their side, are anxious to arm them and commit ground troops.

UK and USA continue to try to show the world that you can get what you want so long as you have enough bombs to drop. UK has encouraged a "special relationship" with the school bully, thus giving him sanction to carry on behaving in his atrocious way. This war is illegal in USA because to go to war requires approval of Congress, which has not been given because it has not been sought. Nor was it when Reagan bombed Libya and killed Qaddafi's daughter (military target?). And why? - in response to some smoke and mirrors paranoia involving Libyan hit squads in the USA which mysteriously never materialised.

Libya's idealistic socialist state will be made to fail and the mob will try to take over. Whoever takes over will first spend Libyan peoples' money on replacing the weaponry that NATO have destroyed.

Does anyone yet know the name of a person, tribe, political or regional affiliation that represents the revolutionaries? Or how many people in Libya support the revolution?
Agreed there will always be those jealous of Western "freedom" (to get access to alcohol, drugs, fast food etc) rather than live according to the Koran - that will never change.

Libya in general and Qaddafi in particular are probably the most widely misunderstood of the Arab countries, which are all widely misunderstood by the West. Libya has lived in relative peace over the last 40 odd years following the bloodless coup in '69, (except for the Chadian war wherein Chad tried to claim back disputed territory on the border. Libya lost heavily to their opponents, Chad, France and, oh look - USA).

USA and their "special relationship" buddy need to start getting real about countries they don't understand and stop trying to impose their own solutions to problems that are none of their business - it hasn't worked in Afghanistan or Iraq, and it won't work in Libya.

Forgive the rant but this imperialist crap really makes me angry.

g

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM

"imperialist crap".

Drivel.   Leftist tripe. Hope I'm not too subtle.

More details later.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:36 AM

"Libya's idealistic socialist state" Guest giovanni is in fact a kleptocracy set up to enrich Gaddafi and his family Saif's yearly allowance amounts to £170,000,000. Not a thing can be done in Libya without involving the Libyan Investment Fund which is 100% owned by Gaddafi - I guess for a "socialist" that is about as ideal as it gets.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:42 AM

I didn't see it as a rant, g. However, some of your information is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:45 AM

Not that an ideological warrior, with which Mudcat is graced by an amazing number, should understand this, but I'll try anyway:

"This one is about oil".    That was said about Iraq also. In Iraq's case there may be some truth to the accusation--though I think it was to a large extent GWB's calculation that a short successful war against an obviously evil regime would prove very popular with the US electorate.

Since many of us realized that the Iraq invasion was a trumped-up move--to prevent something totally unproven (WMD)-- many of us Mudcatters opposed it completely. And good old John who wants to beat the "imperialist" drum would say the Iraq invasion was all about oil.    And again I think he is oversimplying--not that leftists ever do such a thing.   Not much. Of course not.

Some of us who opposed the Iraq invasion are in favor of the Libya campaign.

There are clear differences.   To allege a parallel, you would, as I noted earlier, have to posit that half of iraq , including half the military had broken away from Saddam before the first Western bomb fell in 2003.   And that the rebels in Iraq had made many direct appeals to the West to help them against Saddam.   Neither of which was the case.

And as Charlie, I believe, has pointed out earlier:    to say the Libyan invasion is all about oil makes precisely no sense for this reason:   before the attack by Western planes Libya was very happy to sell as much oil to the West as the West wanted.   So there would be no reason to attack Libya to get oil.

Unless you think the West wants to take over Libya.    Which is nothing but a typically stupid Leftist theory, graced by precisely zero evidence.

Again, hope I'm not being too subtle.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:47 AM

"half of Iraq, including half the military,"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:55 AM

Also "Libya's idealistic sociallst state".    If it is idealistic, and benefits the Libyan people as a whole, why do half the Libyans want themselves to topple this idealistic state?

I think "drlvel" is an apt description of the "idealist socialist" theory.

Or is it a proxy war, as alleged by the towering genius Jack Camplin, who wants to tell us about the Sudetenland parallel--but somehow has not found time to come up with any evidence?

Gee, I wonder why not.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:58 AM

"Jack Campin"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:42 PM

Latest update from the "front" wherever that is now:

"Rebel defences around Ajdabiya appeared to be failing as Gaddafi's soldiers broke into the heart of the strategic town, 90 miles from Benghazi, and engaged in running street battles after again outmanoeuvring the revolutionaries.

Although western powers continued their air strikes, they did not appear to deter Gaddafi's forces."

Gadhafi's soldiers appear to have outflanked Ajdabiya, attacking it from the south and east. NATO planes were able to destroy 10 or so tanks but that didn't stop the attack. Resistence by the Rebels continues in the town.

Benghazi may itself be attacked next.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:15 PM

The Rebels evidently were successful in chasing Gadhafi's soldiers out of Ajdabiya. I'm surprised.

Meanwhile the Organization of African Unity has had a meeting with Gadhafi in Tripoli and it's said that he has endorsed their "roadmap to a ceasefire" whatever that means. The OAU representatives are flying to Benghazi next, and if they're not shot down, will confer with the Libya Interim Council there.

Oh, and appropriate obscenities to all of the above who feed on such things.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:35 PM

I wouldn't pin much too hope on the AU delegation:

"Nabila Ramdani, a French journalist and Middle East expert, said the situation with regard to Libya had reached not only a military but also a political deadlock.

"It's quite worrying," she told Al Jazeera. "Unfortunately, my view about the African Union is that it will appear as not being a credible group of people to be in a position to broker a deal on behalf of Gaddafi.

"They are a group of dictators themselves and they won't be taken very seriously given that they're from very brutal regimes which are in many ways far worse than the Gaddafi regime."

Ahmad Bani, a rebel spokesman, rejected a negotiated outcome to the conflict.

"There is no other solution than the military solution, because this dictator's language is annihilation, and people who speak this language only understand this language," he told Al Jazeera."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 10:44 PM

"Road to a ceasefire" is exactly what Gadhafi wants---with him or his sons still left in the regime.

Then, when the West OK's this, comes payback on the rebels--which Gadhafi has already promised more than once.    After all, they are 'vermin".    Sounds amazingly like a Goebbels-endorsed film.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 02:37 AM

Fantastic feedback, just what one expects from Mudcat these days!

I'm neither a leftist nor a socialist, but I am a realist. I may not agree with the way Qaddafi wants Libya to live, but I do understand where he's coming from. He is an idealist and works hard at keeping his principles in place. Too hard by Western standards, but Arab states are not run according to Western standards, and probably can't be. Western intrusion works as well in the 21st century as it did in the Crusades.

Guest999 says some of my information is wrong but doesn't say which, nor why. I would be interested to know - the whole point of discussion should be to share knowledge rather than to try to big yourself up by putting others down.

Which brings me neatly to Ron Davies, who questions my take on the ideology of Libya's socialist state. The answer is that it is idealistic therefore probably not practical - not many socialist states are very successful - but it is the state that Qaddafi's revolution put into words (see Green Book) and tries very hard to maintain. Ron asks why half of the Libyan people oppose it? Answer is that the supposition of half the people being opposed is simply the outpourings of the UK and US propaganda machines - which you are free to believe if you are naive enough. The truth is that nobody knows how many people the rebels represent, nor even who they are. Hence the Russian take on Al-Qaeda.

For Teribus and anybody else who thinks Libya has been worse off under Qaddafi than they were under his predecessor (the Western supported puppet King Idris) - you need to look up the statistics on hospital and school building and compare with the "achievements" of Idris during his 20 odd years of rule.

Qaddafi and his regime may not be everyone's cup of tea but his revolution in '69 was absolutely necessary to stop UK, US and Idris plundering. Plunder may still be going on but Libya is still better off than it was, due to the doubling of the oil price and nationalisation of oilfields in '71ish.

The latest revolution is simply the result of copycat action following Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen and maybe some other states, which supports the Al-Qaeda theory that any unrest is better for them than continued peace. The only difference is that the 3 countries who have been historically opposed to Qaddafi (UK, USA, France) are not bombing those other countries.

g

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 05:59 PM

"For Teribus and anybody else who thinks Libya has been worse off under Qaddafi than they were under his predecessor"

Please show me Guest giovanni anywhere where I have intimated that "I thought that Libya was worse off under Gaddafi" than under King Idris. But please you don't really have to strain yourself, fact is I never said or inferred anything of the sort - so stop putting words into my mouth.

You made reference to "Libya's idealistic socilaist state" and I merely pointed out to you that there is nothing idealistic or socialist about Libya it is run as kleptocracy for the benefit of Gaddafi and those closest to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 10:28 PM

I am impressed that Gadhafi's troops are still willing to risk their lives at his orders. Anyone got an explanation for that behavior?

Sure, they may be very well paid but it takes more than that to continue to stay on the offensive as they've been doing.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 10:43 PM

Charley... desertion is punishable by death without trial. A corpoal can deliver such punishment on the battlefield. I could go on but no need.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 12:45 AM

"I am impressed that Gadhafi's troops are still willing to risk their lives at his orders."

What choice do they have Charley? Seen from their perspective:

1: They have much to gain from sticking it out, if victorious Gaddafi will reward those who stood by him well at the expense of those who did not.

2: We have no idea what information they are getting upon which to base their actions or form their intentions.

3: The mercenary elements hired by Gaddafi are being paid enormous sums of money.

4: There have as yet been no real battles, the nearest thing to a battle is being fought in and around Misratah, every other action can best be described as skirmishes, the "war" has been too fluid for anyone to have prepared a true defensive position that has to be attacked and carried.

5: Air power to date has only been used to enforce the "no-fly zone" and prevent heavy weapons being used against civilians and centres of population. I do think that there have been strikes put in against ground troops.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 01:21 AM

Not only are the mercenaries paid well, but they come from some of the poorest countries of Africa. And there's no future at home. I saw a NYT article interviewing some Mali young men, and at the end they asked the writer to put a good word in her article for Gadhafi, so he would be able to stay in power and, they hoped, hire more of them.

And Gadhafi has sponsored all sorts of improvements in those countries--as well as leading the OAS.    You can buy a lot of goodwill with as much oil money as he has.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:03 AM

Ron the most effective of Gaddafi's mercenaries are Serbs reputedly on £2,500 per day, many of whom have real combat experience in urban environments and who have no qualms at all about killing civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:50 AM

"Guest999 says some of my information is wrong but doesn't say which, nor why. I would be interested to know - the whole point of discussion should be to share knowledge rather than to try to big yourself up by putting others down."

When I have time--likely tomorrow--I will do so. No offense, but when you stated what you did, you simply stated it. Neither did you say "which, nor why."

As to 'big oneself up', that is as arrogant a statement unsupported by fact as I have read in a time. You have but an opinion. As do I.

Tomorrow.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:31 AM

You can bet the mercenaries from Mali and Chad don't receive £2,500 per day.

I hadn't run across any articles mentioning the Serb mercenaries.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:07 AM

This article tells of how African migrants are being abducted and forced to fight for Gaddafi.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/04/20114818291705627.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:29 AM

You don't need 2,500 pounds a day to consider a job under Gadhafi a good deal if you're a Mali young man.    I get the impression that any job Gadhafi will pay you for is considered a big step up---and you can bet he does pay well on Mali standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM

I rather suspect that "£2,500 per day" was dreamed up by some PR merchant. I'm sure the mercenaries are paid pretty well, as mercenaries generally are. Here's a page I found speculating about this kind of thing, and quoting some figures for comparison.

But there's clear no evidence I've seen that Gaddafi is particularly dependent on the mercenaries he employs, or that the Libyan troops are particularly liable to favour the opposition, as was the case in Egypt.

It maybe that the mass of Libyans in Tripoli are hoping for the rebellion to succeed, but I haven't seen any evidence for that. That doesn't mean Gaddafi is a nice man or a good ruler, but all too often pretty nasty and incompetent rulers have a lot of popular support. They even win elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 04:35 PM

Remember, there are no smart bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 03:14 AM

Just been watching footage of UN planes being guided in on huge buildings somewhere in Libya and completely obliterating them with a couple of missiles from long distance.
Now, even if these buildings are military premises, they must contain large numbers of civilian workers......or low level military guys just doing their jobs.

Considering the fact that we are not "at war" with Libya, how can we say that we are there only to protect civilians?

It appears that the truth is about to "come out"
That what we are really there for, is to effect "regime change" regardless of the wishes of the majority of vthe Libyan people.

Col Gadaffi must be having a wry smile at claims of the virtue of "Western democracy".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 07:43 AM

Ake-

effect "regime change" regardless of the wishes of the majority of the Libyan people.

If wishes were fishes we'd all be in a stew!

So, you propose a national referendum before any attempt at regime change? When the last time that was done in England, or the States for that matter?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:31 AM

Ake--

And how much of a level playing field do you think your referendum would have with Gadhafi still with about $6 billion in Libya?

Early in this crisis his folks went around handing out the equivalent of $400 to every family in Tripoli.    If you don't think this sort of thing would play a role in your referendum, just how naive are you?

And through his petrodollars he has tried to buy the goodwill of some very powerful players in Africa. For instance: "In March 2008 the Libyan leader visited Uganda amid huge fanfare to open a multi-billion dollar mosque, famed to be the second largest in Africa with a capacity to accommodate 15,000 worshippers.   Of course, he had financed its construction."

Source:   AllAfrica. com.

If you don't think this would influence many ordinary Moslems in his favor, you need to think again.

Perhaps you've heard the term:   ":Money talks".   If not, you should familiarize yourself with it.






However, on another front, there appear to be a few good developments in the Libya story.   The provisional government appears to be gaining legitimacy.

Most of a delegation of the African Union visited Benghazi to try to broker a truce.   This in itself helps the provisional government attain legitimacy.


Of course the rebels turned it down, since Gadhafi or his sons would have remained part of the regime.   It seems folks may have learned something since the conservatives in Germany included Hitler as part of the the government, thinking, despite his huge power base outside the government, that they could control him.

As a rebel spokesman put it, Gadhafi is "sending the AU to negotiate with the rats."

A Western diplomat in Benghazi said of the rebels' handling of the AU visit: "I'm impressed."

The more Western diplomats are impressed, the more likely NATO will stay the course--and hopefully give more direct military aid--everything short of ground troops.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:51 AM

There's no question in my mind that the US needs to get more involved again.   US forces are only involved in support these days--and the rebels say that means a huge change in the results.   Without more US participation, a stalemate could easily result--which means in the long--or short--run--that Gadhafi wins.    With well-known consequences for "rats".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 12:15 PM

A ceasefire, on the basis proposed by the African Union, conditional on a prompt election process, with safeguards and international monitors, seems the best option for getting out of this mess.

The rebels are never likely to win this civil war, and even if the Nato involvement steps up even further, and in effect they take over the fighting in breach of the UN mandate, the prospects don't look too promising for a rapid victory.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 12:36 PM

Ron seems to be saying that, even if the majority of Libyans would wish Gaddafi to stay in power, their wishes should be overruled, in favour of the wishes of a Libyan minority, and of outside governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 01:14 PM

It's been a long time since I've been romantically enamored with Rebel causes.

I remember well the heroic rebels in Angola fighting the Portuguese colonialists, and after finally winning, fighting each other for another 20 years. MPLA, I believe, finally won it all.

Then there were the Eritrean rebels fighting the oppressive Ethiopians under Mingistu's regime, and after they won their freedom they helped the Tigrian rebels sweep Mingistu out of power. Then when they had nothing better to do the Eriteans attacked Ethiopia and squandered what remained of their resources and young men.

The rebels in Libya may be no better or worse than other rebel movements. Lord knows they don't appear to be well organized. But given my opinion of the record of the Gadhafi regime for the last 40 years, I wish them well.

I don't think there will be any shortcuts to "the march on Tripoli." Now they really need to set up a major defensive line (if one can do that in the desert), get better organized, recruit and train more soldiers, and get resupplied with appropriate arms.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM

"A ceasefire, on the basis proposed by the African Union, conditional on a prompt election process, with safeguards and international monitors, seems the best option"

Awwww bless you Kevin, how are things in Trumpton these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 01:28 PM

Or was it Camberwick Green - 400 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 02:13 PM

You left out Chigley...

Given that enforced regime change imposed by external forces would be illegal, there isn't really a better alternative, if that one is on the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:04 PM

I'm surprised Teribus, that you appear to be supporting the insurgency here yet were totally against it in Iraq.

I'm sure if the peasants revolted again in the UK, under the weight of Tory attacks on the poorest in society,you would be one of the first to want them shot down?

Does the rule of law apply only in this sceptred isle?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:18 PM

The fact of the matter is that we are interfering in the affairs of another sovereign country under the guise of protecting one section of the civilian population.......or do you think that when the insurgent tanks start shelling Tripoli we will start incinerating them?

This adventure appears to be over a multi billion oil contract which is on the table between BP and the Lybian government.

Of course if Colonel Gadaffi survives, he will quite rightly wipe his arse with said contract.

We are there to make sure Colonel Gadaffi does not survive, just like Iraq.

We never ever learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:14 PM

1: "I'm surprised Teribus, that you appear to be supporting the insurgency here yet were totally against it in Iraq." - akenaton

Good parallel that. Only thing is your timing is off. The parallel to Iraq with the current insurgency in Libya is that the insurgency in Libya today is identical to the Shia uprising in Southern Iraq in 1991 when the USA did everything to encourage the uprising but did nothing to physically help. At the time I was fully behind that uprising as well - no conflict at all.

The Kurds in the North were luckier they had a border with a NATO country Turkey that allowed British Royal Marines of 45 Commando to enter Iraq and place themselves between the Kurds and SAddam Hussein's Army, otherwise without that that physical presence the Kurds would have again died in their tens of thousands.

2: "The fact of the matter is that we are interfering in the affairs of another sovereign country under the guise of protecting one section of the civilian population"

Now which section of the population is it that we are protecting? So far the only section that has been protected has been the civilian population that the forces of Muammar Gaddafi have been attacking. The "Rebels" have yet to attack any civilians and if they do I am sure that steps will be taken to stop them.

3: "This adventure appears to be over a multi billion oil contract which is on the table between BP and the Libyan government."

Your timing is off again akenaton the contract had already been agreed between Gaddafi and BP before this little lot flared up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM

Kevin, how long have you had this devotion to mass-murdering tyrants?

Is this a recent development?

It appears you'd be just fine with whatever treatment Gadhafi thought appropriate for the "rats".

Or will your election team remain in Libya forever to prevent Gadhafi's revenge?   Sorry, that's not really very practical.

Have you ever heard of the film "Jud Suess"?   You might want to read about it--and its uses.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 09:09 PM

Also try "Der ewige Jude", especially the opening.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:41 AM

"Devotion to mass-murdering tyrants" - I haven't said anything said to justify that. He's a standard enough brutal ruler, probably no worse than many others whom we have also supplied with arms and friendship over the years, but quite bad enough. I'd be happy to see the back of him - but the point is, that's a matter for the people of Libya, and I haven't seen any evidence that they share my unfavourable views of the man and his regime.

I'd think it quite likely that a properly monitored election might get rid of Gaddafi, but I wouldn't bet on it. However I don't think it makes too much sense to put his departure in advance of that as a non-negotiable condition for a ceasefire, in a civil war of which the outcome is at very best extremely uncertain, and very possibly a lot worse than that. Offering a ceasefire on condition of properly monitored elections makes sense if only as a negotiating ploy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:31 AM

Tell me Kevin what post in the "Government" of Libya does Muammar Gadafi hold - What is his title? (He, himself says that he has none) When was the last time his name appeared on ANY ballot paper?

As long as Gaddafi is there, there can be no free and fair elections in Libya, irrespective of how many international observers and degree of oversight you put in place. Once the monitors leave that is when the blood-letting commences. If you want an example Kevin take a look at Zimbabwe.

The "Rebels" are perfectly correct in their demands Gaddafi must go - The Palestinians should have insisted on the same with regard to Yasser Arafat in 1971.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM

Ah..... but what the fuck has it to do with a bankrupt second rate nation like ours.......We punish the poorest for the crimes of the capitalist system, yet find the money to slaughter young men who are just doing their job being soldiers.

They never see us, just a rumble of aircraft engines far out of range.....like shooting fish in a barrel really ....not really war at all, never getting our hands bloody....never even having to engage our brains.....just like a video game played with real flesh and blood.....barbecued!

You say the insurgents are correct, but you have no more idea what their real agenda is than I have.
Even the Americans have said they believe there are links to Islamic fundamentalism and I think that is more than likely.
Of course there will be young people who are fooled by the facade of "Western style democracy", but the Mullahs will soon decapitate these boys when the time comes.....at the moment they must pay lip service to "democracy" to obtain the slaughtering capacity of the three most warmongering nations in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:11 PM

It may be perfectly reasonable for the rebels/insurgents/dissidents to have the overthrowal of Gaddafi as an objective in making war, but that's different from making it a pre-condition for a ceasefire, rather than a fair election which enables the people of Libya to get rid of him, if that is what they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 03:57 PM

View from the Guardian
Its all about oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:29 AM

It is being reported that Gaddafi's forces are using cluster bombs in civilian areas in Misurata.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/201141591544963774.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:03 AM

Sorry , Kevin that I was so aggressive in my last post.    But you must imagine that because in your world of sweetness and light everybody plays by Marquess of Queensberry rules, that tyrants will also. Specifically that Gadhafi will. I'm afraid this is a bit naive.

First of all, he may well (with about $6 billiion still in Libya), have enough to buy the election.

Secondly, consider his track record. He has a long history of sending assassination squads all over the world to dispose of dissidents.   What makes you think he would let dissidents still in Libya survive?

And look at what else his wonderful family has done to show their tolerance and good intentions.

Item:    When Hannibal Gadhafi, a son, was arrested by Swiss police in 2009 for battery, what was Gadhafi's reaction?    At the G-8 summit he publicly called for the dissolution of Switzerland, its territory to be divided between France, Italy and Germany. (Time 25 Sept 2009)

In August 2009, Hannibal Gadhafi stated that if he had a nuclear bomb: "I would wipe Switzerland off the map".

As late as 2004, Gadhafi still had bounties on critics, including $1 million for Ashur Shamis, a Libyan-British journalist (Guardian 28 Mar 2004).


There was a warming of relations between Gadhafi and the West later, but with the recent moves by the West against him, it seems more than a bit likely, to say the least, that he will return to 2004-style attitudes.

He also, among other things, has said that HIV is a "peaceful virus, not an aggressive virus"


Neither he nor any member of his family can be trusted--and most , including the Brother Leader himself, do not appear to be playing with a full deck.



Furthermore, suppose your election were held and Gadhafi was considered to have won fair and square according to your election observers.

Then what?    I'm sure you'd insist on unfreezing the $50 billion or so now frozen. (And of course there would be new oil money coming in.)

And what do you think he'd do with the money?    Devote it to the welfare of his citizens?

Consider again his track record.   He would have no incentive to curry favor with the West. In the past he has sought several times to get nuclear weapons.   And he would have the incentive--and money--to do so.

Introducing yet another element of tension into the Mideast.    And with his well-known views on Israel, Israel would probably feel compelled to take out his nuclear sites--before it became impossible to do so.

No, for a huge list of reasons, he and his family cannot play any role in any future Libyan government.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 12:25 PM

The trouble is, the logic of Ron's position is invasion and occupation, in the expectation that a free election might go the wrong way. There's an analogy with the position summed up by Eisenhaower in relation to the reason elections could not be held in Vietnam "80 per cent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh".

And that bit of realpolitick didn't work out too well.

And invasion and occupation, even if successful, would have to be done on the same illegal basis as in Iraq. Not an encouraging precedent either.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:54 PM

You all seem to ignore the RTP norm, I guess civilian lives are expendable....too bad that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:10 AM

I just heard someone from the MoD on BBC Radio Devon News saying that it's all become very tricky in Libya and now 'they've got themselves into a difficult situation which is not going to be easy to get out of'

Well, well, who'd a thought it, eh?

Did they honestly think he was just going to pack his TinyTim bag and various hat boxes and tiptoe through the tulips to another place? Did they seriously think that a totally untrained crowd of, so often, hysterical men would be able to defeat a tyrant such as Gadaffi, when his army was still loyal to him?

This already is a major disaster and it's going to get one helluva lot worse, probably end up involving other countries too as The Jihad Camel starts its lonesome trek into the hot desert sun...picking up many followers in its noonday shadow.

Oh, brother, have we stirred up a scarab's nest with our continuous Western Arrogance.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 01:30 PM

It's great to have you back, Kevin, after your serious medical issues.   And I understand that you do not want to have your position on this thread misrepresented.

However for some reason you seem to think it's just fine to misrepresent mine--"Invasion". .

If you would actually take the time to read the thread, instead of making false comparisons (Vietnam, Iraq) you would find that I have clearly differentiated between the trumped-up Iraq invasion, and helping the rebels in Libya (who include quite a few of Gadhafi's own military. ) After having clearly rejected Gadhafit, they have asked many times for our help. Perhaps you haven't noticed this--though it has been in the news many times. Can't understand how you have missed it.

I only advocate what the provisional government in Benghazi is asking.   They have made it clear they want no Western ground troops.   And we must abide by that--nor do we even want to put in ground troops, you may possibly have noticed.

The Benghazi government does not want a Western "invasion".   Nor do we. What's more , I think you realize this, but choose for your own reasons to disregard it.

They do want Western governments to recognize them as the only legitimate government in Libya.   And to release to them at least some of the frozen funds.    And to provide more timely support from the air.
   
We should do all these things.

And a far more applicable comparison than Vietnam is 1938 Germany.    Dissidents in Germany then reached out to France and the UK, and were rebuffed.   

This was a huge mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM

And "occupation" is the last thing the Western powers want.

As anybody who could--and was willing to-- read could easily see.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:48 PM

Thanks for the good wishes, Ron.

I'm not intending to misrepresent your position. What I'm concerned about is the process that is referred to as "mission drift" - what starts as minimal intervention builds into full scale involvement, because minimal intervention just won't do the job.

There is no process by which the rebel administration in Benghazi can be recognised as "the only legitimate government in Libya" except a vote by the Security Council to that effect. And that is not going to happen.

This means that the level and nature of the intervention is severely restricted. Going further than those limitations would involve an effective breach with the UN, as happened in the case of Iraq.

"More timely support from the air" - there are real limits on how effective air support can be in countering ground troops who are not using heavy transport and heavy weapons, but using mortars and hand held guns. I doubt if frozen funds are a major problem in the short run. Similarly supplying arms and even training for rebel troops is not going to tun them into an effective fighting force with any prospect of defeating the Tripoli based army for quite some time. I doubt if it would make much difference at this point.

A ceasefire without preconditions and an attempt to negotiate seems to me the only realistic way of stopping the killing. And if it turned put to be temporary, with the fighting starting again, I think it likely that this would very likely actually put the rebels in a stronger military position.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM

"Gentlemen, lest we get carried away with our own rhetoric, NATO's mission is NOT to help the rebels. It's mission is to help protect civilians"

Bruce, I haven't laughed so much in ages.


Like it or not, Gadaffi's government WAS the Libyan government. People rebelled. He used force. That is the prerogative of government.

It was a military operation against a rebel force. Nothing at all to do with the UN.

The Americo-UN activity is, quite simply, interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state.

And while the Gadaffi regime may have been a kleptocracy, it provided more trickle-down benefits for its people than Ronnie Raygun, the Shrub, and Milk-Snatcher combined.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:53 PM

So, you think it is the prerogative of governments to slaughter unarmed citizens for protesting against their government, which is how the rebellion started in Libya, lest you forget. Well I, for one, am grateful that the world has finally learned the lessons of genocide in places like Srebrenica and Rwanda and has said it will no longer stand by while maniacal dictators slaughter their populations. As much as you might admire the bastard Gaddafi the people of Libya appear to have a different opinion of him and are willing to die to be free of his tyranny and with the world's help I hope they will be successful. Power to the people!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 10:51 PM

And please, Lizzie, spare us the canned drivel about "Western arrogance".    After a while breast-beating leftist tripe starts to get old.

The rebels begged--over and over--for our assistance.

Yet again--they do not want Western ground troops--which is fine with us.   They have told us what they do want, and we should comply.

There will be no Western "occupation"--since no party wants one, with the possible exception of Col. Gaddafi, since that's the only thing which could possibly unify Libyans behind him.

The idea of "occupation" of Libya is a self-inflicted Leftist nightmare, with no basis in reality.

But if it makes you happy to agonize about an absurd idea, by all means have at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:35 AM

Bobad - think about it. Rulers rule.

Ron, think about it. There are plenty in the USA or UK who might beg for the assistance of a foreign power to dethrone our own kleptocracies. Goose, gander?

If it is legitimate for the US (etc) to interfere in Libya, then it is legitimate for other powers to interfere in the US (etc).

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:32 AM

"If it is legitimate for the US (etc) to interfere in Libya, then it is legitimate for other powers to interfere in the US (etc)."

If the US were waging war against it's citizenry then I should hope that "other powers" would intervene.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:53 AM

"...And please, Lizzie, spare us the canned drivel about "Western arrogance".    After a while breast-beating leftist tripe starts to get old.

The rebels begged--over and over--for our assistance....."


Strange that other rebels in other countries are apparently mute, or maybe it's just that we're deaf to their cries...OR, maybe it's other reasons, eh, Ron?

Come ON, Mugabe's been killing his people for years, but we entertain him on official visits! If he had oil of course, we might just sit up and listen...

I heard last night that over 300 people in one city have been killed, and whilst ANY person killed is a tragedy, other dictators kill hundreds of thousands of their people, yet we do NOTHING, not a damn thing.

I'm not a leftist, by the way....I'm not an anythingist, just a woman who has her eyes open, thinks differently to you and sees through all the political crap going down around me.

The West IS arrogant, I'm afraid and seems to think it should meddle in all affairs where there is something to be gained, yet turns a blind eye to all other affairs which do not directly benefit their political and corporate masters.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:05 AM

"Western arrogance"

The resolution to come to the aid of the citizens of Libya was made by the UN security council with the support of the Arab League, the African Union and the GCC.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:35 AM

The Arab League supported the idea - but none of its members have provided any actual assistance (too busy in some cases suppressing their own dissidents, or in the case of Saudi Arabia, the dissidents in its neighbour Bahrain).

The African Union has been busy trying to broker a ceasefire without preconditions, which has been rejected by the Benghazi and by Britain and France etc.

"The initials GCC may have different meanings in various fields"

But I think "Western arrogance" in this context isn't too helpful. The point is, there is a practical as well as principled limit to what can be done to intervene in other countries to prevent injustice. And there is always a very real danger that "striving to better oft we mar what's well" - or make bad things even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:43 AM

GCC = Gulf Cooperation Council

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 08:35 PM

Trump 'em

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:46 AM

Gaddafi is now using helicopters with Red Cross and Red Crescent markings to drop mines into the harbour of Misurata, which is clearly against international law. He also dropped bombs from small planes and destroyed Misurata's fuel supply. I say it's time for the US to get back into the fray and finish the bastard off.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/05/201157112432539341.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:56 AM

Well, some of Gadhafi's commanders are still able to plan and carry out strategic military missions. Score another one for their side.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:25 PM

Bobad is right.   And the longer the delay the more dead--on both sides. And of course the more expense to the West--if people are concerned about budgets, as seems the case.

Among other things, more drones--and more flights by them--are needed.

Nobody , neither the opponents of Western involvement nor those in favor of it, wants this to drag on.    Nobody but Gadhafi--since the longer it lasts the more likely the West--or the rebels--will give up.    Then comes the Brother Leader's payback on " the rats".    Which doesn't seem to bother some Mudcatters.

Let's lance this boil.


The only really good development I've seen recently is that it appears the West is preparing to release about $4.5 billion of the frozen funds to the rebels.

Supposedly only for food and other humanitarian purposes. But I've also seen "military salaries" named.   If this money becomes as fungible as is likely, the rebels can actually buy some of the weapons they need.

We also need to try to cut off oil sales by Gadhafi's regime--and promote those of the rebel government.

And there is no excuse for every member of NATO involved in this operation not to recognize the rebel provisional government as the only legitimate government.

The legitimacy of Gadhafi's regime is long gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:26 PM

Ron-

My only disagreement with you is my willingness to acknowledge that I don't know what will replace Gadhafi, whether it will be worse. I'm willing to assume nothing could be worse but that may not be true. I'm not picking up any reservations from you with regard to supporting the rebels, and I find that frankly puzzling.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:11 PM

Oh yeah .... Libya ..... forgot about that.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:48 AM

Cameron......opportunist
Blair .......opportunist
Sarkosy......opportunist

It's all about access to Libyan oil rights......fools

We are being used by a bunch of pirates, fundamentalists and immature young kids blinded by the mirage of Western "democracy"(consumerism)

Do you people really want to promote a fullscale civil war in Libya, with all the thousands of deaths that will involve?
Or is your stance simply ideological masturbation?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 May 11 - 09:59 AM

I'll leave Ake to answer his own question--not that there's any purple prose in it. Of course not.

Mine for him is:   yet again:    Are you just fine with Gadhafi slaughtering his own dissidents? If not, how will you prevent it?

For Charlie, and other reasonable people this is a start on his answer. I will have a lot more--no time now.   I read constantly everything I can get on the Libyan crisis--whether it supports Western intervention or not.

It's clear to me the only reason not to intervene with everything the rebels have asked for--that is, everything but ground troops, is the fear that the rebels would form a worse regime for Libya than Gadhafi.   Specifically that al-Qaeda would benefit.    On this point, it is clear from my reading that al-Qaeda is the refuge of the desperate.    The way to encourage al_Qaeda in Libya would be to let Gadhafi win--and watch the annihilation of his opposition that would follow.    The bitter survivors would turn to the ideology which sees violence as the solution to problems--that is, to al Qaeda,    The "Arab spring" would be harshly discredited in the cruelest way.


More later.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 May 11 - 11:57 AM

Ron-

I certainly agree with that reasoning.

I also acknowledge that better access to oil has a lot to do with the interest of most NATO members in displacing Gadhafi. Of course Gadhafi did a reasonable job of keeping them all supplied for years but he was, and remains, a wild card. Who's to say if access to oil will be any more reliable or on more favorable turns under a new rebel regime?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 May 11 - 12:45 PM

The U.S. has stepped into another civil war in a Muslim country.

No boots on the ground? Don't count on it.

Nato's boss is the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 May 11 - 11:52 PM

Proof of the pudding....

Unless you are convinced of course that there is no difference between Obama and GWB.



As I have noted already, there are huge differences between the Libya and Iraq interventions. To find a tortured parallel, you would have to posit that in 2003 in Iraq before the first Western bomb fell, half the country, including half his own military, had already deserted Saddam.   And that the rebels had already appealed directly to the West for aid several times. Neither of which was the case. As is obvious to anybody who takes off his leftist goggles.



Again there's not much time.


But there are scads of articles about the provisional government and the rebels.   Not hard to find.

Just one more example for tonight:

Christian Science Monitor:

(Anybody who gags at the word Christian need not read further).

Voice of Free Libya:    a song "written in 2002 by...a medical student who spent three years in jail in the 1990's for speaking out against Gadhafi.   The patriotic song was soon banned from the airwaves and is now a favorite among protestors downtown waiting for the fall of Tripoli."

"It's all about love of country and identifying with the people's suffering." "It doesn't mention Gaddafi and he hated this. He wanted to be the symbol of all good things in Libya,   That kind of patriotism was threatening to him " says one Libyan.

Lots and lots more examples of the rebels' attitudes.   No time now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 11 - 03:42 PM

Ah, yes, "Nato" (=US) attack on party of young clerics.

As posted elsewhere, this is my "told you so" day.

Told you so.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 May 11 - 05:04 PM

Richard-

And it's entirely possible that 12 clerics were killed in a NATO bombing raid or Brega, as Gadhafi has gleefully pointed out. If the story is true, it's very unfortunate. So it goes.

Meanwhile the Rebels seem to have had some success in clearing Gadhafi's forces from in and around Misrata, including the airport.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 11 - 12:05 PM

Without Nato assisination attacks the insurgency would have been over and forgotten about weeks ago......now the West must kill Gadaffi and all his family and probably thousands of civilians to justify being there to begin with.

What a shower of fucking idiots

Just like Blair in Iraq.......Cameron is a proven liar and manipulator, who is now being manipulated by a gang of Islamists, opportunists and dreamers.

And like Iraq its being done in our name!

And why no brave assasination attempt on Assad or his family?

Stp Press.....Muslim Brotherhood to fight the Egyptian elections
Once again I find myself with Richard........"I told you so"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 May 11 - 02:50 PM

akenaton-

"Without Nato assisination attacks the insurgency would have been over and forgotten about weeks ago......now the West must kill Gadaffi and all his family and probably thousands of civilians to justify being there to begin with.

What a shower of fucking idiots"

It's probably true that the Rebel insurgency would have been suppressed and many of the "Rebels" slaughtered by Gadhafi's forces a month or so ago without NATO assistance.

Calling people "fucking idiots" doesn't necessarily improve the logic of what you're saying.

Your rational for non-intervention would be what?

Intervention would not have been politically possible without the call by the Arab League for UN intervention, nor without the UN authorizing NATO to intervene on its behalf.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 11 - 07:59 PM

So when a bunch of Islamists call for an assassination attempt on Cameron or Obama will that be right? Apart from the beneficial effect generally of killing Cameron. It's a jurisdictional issue. None of our business to interfere internal Libyan law and order any more than it's there place to interfere here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 11 - 10:53 PM

"None of our business to interfere internal Libyan law and order any more than it's there place to interfere here."

There is an international norm known as Requirement to Protect.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 15 May 11 - 04:06 AM

Akenaton - I could have written exactly the same as your post. Not surprising as I generally agree with your posts.

And I agree with Richard Bridge. There's a first time for everything.

To Ron Davies, Charley Noble, bobad and any other victims of the US propaganda machine - you don't protect people by bombing the shit out of them. Wasn't it the Vietnam debacle that came up with "fighting for peace is like fucking for chastity".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:06 AM

Well said G.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 08:15 AM

Good article in The Telegraph    Handwringers take note.

Highlights:

"Even for an Arab dictator, it is an unusually cynical variant of the "human shield" gambit. On the roof of his Tripoli command bunker, Colonel Gaddafi has installed a children's fairground.

Forty feet away from the crater made on Thursday by a NATO bomb, young boys and girls played happily on a roundabout shaped like a giant tea set."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The reporter speaking to random citizens in Tripoli:

"Within thirty seconds, I had turned a corner and was out of sight in the narrow covered passages of the souk. And within ten minutes, I had spoken to three people who told me, quite bluntly, that they despised Gaddafi and wanted him gone.

"He is mad," said the man in the striped shirt, having first taken the precaution of checking my passport to make sure that I was indeed British."I want to be able to criticise him – why shouldn't I? He has ruined this country."

Another trader told me about the year he had spent in southern England. "Sarkozy, Cameron, they are doing what we all want," he said. "Tell everyone that we don't mind the bombing at all. We want the government to change." A third person said that the shopkeepers in the souk had been ordered to stay open, even though there was very little business, to preserve an appearance of normality."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Even at the bomb sites themselves - visited on official trips in the middle of the night, just after they happen, or the next day - almost no-one is hostile. It must have something to do with the fact that, in two months of attacks, almost none of Tripoli's civilians have been harmed. "We know that the regime's claims about civilian casualties are b----," said one customer who approached me in a shop as I was buying a soft drink. "There is a lot of opposition to Gaddafi in Tripoli.""

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 May 11 - 09:15 AM

Consider Egypt and Tunisia: at least those military forces stood with the democratic aspirations of the people, and those dictators resigned rather than let their countries dissolve in bloodshed.

Does anyone seriously think that once Gaddafi decided slaughter his opponents rather than resign there was *any* solution that would adequately protect human life?

Gaddafi announced also that once the rebel cities had fallen, he would be ruthless in destroying individual lives.

So what it comes down to, from a humanitarian point of view, is

A. who's killing more people - Gaddafi or NATO

B. whether the total casualties will finally be less or more than they would have been if Gaddafi had been allowed a free hand

C. whether the hoped-for overthrow of Gaddafi is worth [X number] of human lives

D. whether NATO's actions, taken (at least in part) to prevent G's announced slaughter, are morally superior to G's actions, taken solely to keep himself in power.

Anyone who has a clear, indisputable answer to A, B, or C, please share it and explain why it is so obvious to you and not to the rest of us.

And is there anyone who doesn't know the answer to D?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 11 - 09:55 AM

There is only one question....Who's business is it to deal with an armed insurrection in a sovereign country?

Gadaffi provided for his people better than any other leader of any other state in the area.....according to information available.

He was against the excesses of Muslim Fundamentalism.....so why are we involved here and nowhere else, even in countries who are shooting their unarmed citizens daily in cold blood?

Oil Rights......and the fact that Gadaffi is a "loose cannon" as far as supplying the West is concerned, is disliked by other Arab puppets, and is not "our monkey"

Col Gadaffi, most of his family and thousands of civilians, will be sacrificed for what the West believes is their interests, just as Saddam, his family and almost a million Iraqis were sacrificed in another illegal and immoral war.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 11 - 10:12 AM

Bobad....don't worry, I dont think a few dozen kids will stop these murderous assassins.

They are what we call collateral damage......this is nice war, sanitised, just like the movies.....when our boys fly back to base, the fairies come and put all the little arms legs and heads back together again.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 11:06 AM

Ake, unfortunately the citizens of Libya don't share your admiration of Col(self proclaimed) Gaddafi, that's why they are willing to sacrifice their lives to get rid of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 11 - 11:52 AM

Damn, I have to agree with Akenaton.

If the Libyan people want to overthrow their established government, it's up to them.

As I recollect the words used at the time of the alleged "threat to murder civilians" the actual threat was to convict and to execute those who had risen against the established government. Normal enough.

Money benefits of Gadaffi to the people of his country. Fact. Learn to live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 May 11 - 12:26 PM

When millions rose against the established government of the United States and fought against it through four years of war, Washington made no threats of postwar executions.

And, in fact, except for the commander of Andersonville prison for war crimes (the justice of which is disputed) there were none. Rebel soldiers were not only allowed to go home in peace, they were allowed to keep their personal weapons.

Execution of political enemies is not "normal enough."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 12:49 PM

Those who are against the UN intervention seem to forget that the revolt began as a peaceful protest in which unarmed civilians were set upon and murdered by Gaddafi's goons and helicopter gunships and were forced to take up arms in self defense. Once that die was cast there was no turning back as large numbers of civilians would have been butchered by the tyrant. As it stands he has lost all legitimacy as the leader of Libya, in the eyes of the world and the International Criminal Court which will likely issue a warrant for his arrest by the end of the month. This will effectively make it impossible for him to escape into exile, thus sealing his fate.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 11 - 01:39 PM

Oh FFS bobad.

Demonstration illegal (under local law)

Government police say "go home".

Demonstrators say "no".

Government troops say "go home".

Demonstrators say "no".

Government does as UK did at Peterloo or US did at Kent State, or US federal government did in 1792.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 01:57 PM

So Richard, are you saying that governments have the right to slaughter their citizenry for the act of peaceful assembly? Do you defend that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:02 PM

A step further... the right to peaceful assembly for any reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:14 PM

all foreign troops should withdraw from libya,
all this talk about protecting peoples rights is hypocritical crap, no one bothers invading countries like Zimbabwe, or Chile[ when it was under pinochet]

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:54 PM

No one is ever going to be able to say for sure whether the numbers who will have been killed because of outside intervention in Libya when the conflict is over is greater than the number who would otherwise have died.

In many historical precedents the number killed because of outside intervention has arguably been far higher - Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, for example. In others the reverse applies - Sierra Leone, possibly in the endgame of Bosnia.

In the case of Libya it's impossible even to guess since the numbers are still building up.

One thing is for certain - we should always assume that the people involved in organising the killing (on both sides) are likely to be telling us lies.

There are two alternatives. One is to continue and escalate the bombing in the hope that at time it will achieve the desired result. The other is to agree to a ceasefire from both sides and try to negotiate an acceptable result.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 11 - 04:28 PM

I would agree with that Mr McGrath, unfortunately on our part it is now about not losing face.
I feel certain that they will bomb Col Gadaffi and his family to pieces and if necessary many of his supporters.

The "protection of civilians" was simply a smoke screen for regime change....we care nothing for international law or peoples rights.

As always might is right, I feel disgusted and ashamed of our hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 May 11 - 04:52 PM

Unfortunately, international relations are impossible without a certain amount of hypocrisy.

Should NATO or the U.S. have interfered in Rwanda?

Any answer will open somebody to the charge of hypocrisy or else breach of international law or morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 May 11 - 09:05 PM

"Early on Friday, alliance jets struck what NATO said was a command-and-control bunker in the eastern frontline town of Brega, but the government claimed that the building was actually a guest house and that 11 imams had died in the attack, while 40 others were injured.

A Dutch engineer told Sky News that he had helped build the guest house and the underground bunker for Gaddafi in 1988, and that the bunker was meant to be a communications hub."

The point being that Gadhafi is quite capable of planting innocent civilians in his guest houses/command & communications bunkers. Richard, you might make a reply with regard to "I've told you so" post above. But, what the fuck, you're mind's made up.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 May 11 - 09:36 PM

And those "guests" were less than "human shields." They were sacrificial propaganda items. G knew well that in event of war, all of his C & C HQs would undoubtedly be hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:11 AM

So several clerics have been killed--certainly a tragedy. And what is Richard's reaction?    Is he sorry for the loss of life?    Not precisely.    He seems in fact overjoyed.

Hard to tell if he's happier--knowing his attitude toward religion--that clerics have been killed--or that he gets a chance to jump up and down yelling:   "I told you so."

Either way his behavior is remarkably close to that of a perfect slimeball.   Who knows, maybe a bit of religion in his life might improve the situation. He obviously needs something.

Somewhat remarkable, considering the reputation lawyers already have with the general public, that he would want to confirm the stereotype.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:05 AM

I'd like, Ron, people to behave legally.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:23 AM

"Should NATO or the U.S. have interfered in Rwanda?

Gadaffi was not planning genocide, he was dealing with an internal armed insurgency.
He behaved exactly as Cameron would behave if a section of the UK population took up arms and threatened his government.

Whether you like to admit it or not lighter, this was opportunism on the part of the West, to rid themselves of someone whom they find troublesome.......Regime change by force...as Richard says,
illegal under the UN charter.

However, the even bigger mistake is becoming apparent, as the Islamists take advantage of their new "democracy" all over the region.
Israel shot and killed many unarmed protesters on their "border" yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:31 AM

"Gadaffi was not planning genocide, he was dealing with an internal armed insurgency.

He behaved exactly as Cameron would behave if a section of the UK population took up arms and threatened his government."

Not quite borne out by either time line or what was stated by Muammar Gaddafi was it Akenaton.

1: First there was no armed insurrection only peaceful protest as there had been in Tunisia and in Egypt

2: Second Gaddafi turned his troops on his own population and when they looked doubtful about shooting down unarmed civilians Gaddafi engaged the services of mercenaries to do the killing for him

3: When this occured large sections of his armed forces deserted and the "people" raided the massive armouries to get weapons in order to defend themselves.

In short Gadafi started the killing and the UN was asked to step in.

All perfectly legal Richard - ANYTHING THE UN JOINTLY DECIDES AND AGREES TO DO IS LEGAL.

But then that is the trouble with the legal profession they get confused law has got nothing whatsoever to do with justice or what is right - Law is simply law.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 11 - 05:37 AM

Christian civilians being butchered daily in the new "democratic" Egypt" (today's Times)

Israelis kill Palestinian unarmed protesters on their "border" (today's Times)

When are we sending in the drones?

Why Libya?.....Regime change in the hope of securing oil rights....pure and simple......and illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:18 AM

"...considering the reputation lawyers already have with the general public,"

As they say, it's ninety eight percent of lawyers that give the other two a bad name.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:18 AM

According to the reports I've seen, the slaughtered imams were in the house next door to the one with "the bunker".

What's the difference between a bunker and an air-raid shelter anyway?

It occurs to me that while it's possible that the stories we are being given about children's playgrounds being placed as human shields might be true, it's equally possible that such stories are being put out as cover for anticipated incidents where children are liable to be killed by misdirected bombings.

Back in the First Gulf War there was the case where a shelter in Baghdada was destroyed by US "smart bombs", and it was at first asserted that it was a military command site and that those killed were military personnel. In fact it appears that the signals identified by "intelligence" were from a site 300 yards away, and the shelter was being used by hundreds of civilians, as it had been in the war against Iran. 408 civilians were killed on that occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:30 AM

NATO was already getting oil from Libya. If human rights were not an issue, why rock the boat with needless military involvement?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:37 AM

"the stories we are being given about children's playgrounds being placed as human shields might be true, it's equally possible that such stories are being put out as cover"

Would Andrew Gilligan conspire to do that McG.?

By Andrew Gilligan, in Tripoli 8:00PM BST 14 May 2011
Even for an Arab dictator, it is an unusually cynical variant of the "human shield" gambit. On the roof of his Tripoli command bunker, Colonel Gaddafi has installed a children's fairground.

Forty feet away from the crater made on Thursday by a NATO bomb, young boys and girls played happily on a roundabout shaped like a giant tea set.

We had been brought deep inside Gaddafi's leadership compound, which takes up at least a full square mile of Tripoli city centre, to witness what the regime called "Nato's madness" in attacking women and children.

But the trip succeeded only in showing that if anyone has put civilians in harm's way, it is the government of Libya. Also near the top of the bunker, which is covered with grass, civilians have been brought to live in tents, ready to sacrifice themselves for the good of their leader.
(Picture too)http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8513982/Tripoli-despatch-Nato-tightens-squeeze-on-Gaddafi.h

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:43 AM

That really was me, but link no good.
Picture here.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387454/We-bomb-Gaddafi-says-UK-general-tyrants-hideout-childrens-playground.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:55 AM

From Al Jazeera:

"The International Criminal Court's chief prosecutor has sought arrest warrants for Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, his son, Saif al-Islam, and another Libyan official on war crimes charges.

Luis Moreno-Ocampo will hand a 74-page dossier of evidence to a three-judge panel at the court in the Hague, the Netherlands, on Monday.

They will decide whether the case is strong enough for them to confirm crimes against humanity charges, and issue international arrest warrants.

"We are almost ready for trial," Moreno-Ocampo said in a statement earlier. "The office collected good and solid evidence to identify [those] who bear the greatest responsibility."

The third official named was Abdullah Senussi, Gaddafi's intelligence chief.

Moreno-Ocampo said that Muammar Gaddafi had personally ordered attacks on Libyan civilians. He described Saif al-Islam as Libya's "de facto prime minister". Senussi was the "executioner" of the regime's campaign against its opponents, he said.

"The office gathered direct evidence about orders issued by Muammar Gaddafi himself, direct evidence of Saif al-Islam organising the recruitment of mercenaries, and direct evidence of the participation of al-Senussi in the attacks against demonstrators," said Moreno-Ocampo.

Moreno-Ocampo's investigation into potential human rights violations has spanned several countries and involved sorting through around 1,500 documents, Al Jazeera's Rory Challands said.

But the two-and-a-half months it has taken to come up with a petition for arrest warrants is a "heartbeat in international justice," he added.

On Monday, Italian foreign minister Franco Frattini said Gaddafi was looking for a "suitable place" to find exile.

"Messages have been arriving from the regime's restricted circle," he said. "Certain [members] have spoken under cover and are beginning to say that Gaddafi is looking for an honourable way out," he added."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 11 - 08:03 AM

So what do you who have been defending the regime's actions against the "armed insurgents" have to say about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 11 - 08:09 AM

Continued access to Libyan oil is certainly one factor in this drama but as others have pointed out there was no problem with Western access to Libyan oil before the protests and armed insurrection. In fact access to oil in the short run is jeopardized by UN/NATO intervention, at least as long as there is a stalemate. The market price for Libyan oil will not change, regardless of who governs Libya, as that is set by the world oil market (and the oil speculators).

It's possible that foreign oil companies will get a better deal afterwards from a new government. Or not.

It's also possible that a greater share of the oil revenue will be channeled to economic development projects and social programs rather than lining the pockets of Gadhafi and his family. Or not.

The Rebels appear to be in control of Brega again this morning. So it goes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:25 AM

Kids in London used to play on bomb sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:35 AM

McGrath says .... "Kids in London used to play on bomb sites" ... in fact I recall a song by Duncan Browne called "On the Bombsite" which he recalls fond memories when he was a child playing on the bombsites.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:39 PM

Apparently neither Libya nor the USA have signed up the War Crimes Tribuneral.

Just heard that Col Gadaffis compound has been hit by five huge bombs
So much for "care for civilians"

It is quite obvious that Gadaffi will be killed and anyone else who is anywhere near him.
Yet other states are killing protesters all around him

Thank fuck it wont be long till Scotland is free from the warmongering bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:49 PM

I was a kid in London who played on bomb sites.
I do not see the relevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:51 PM

I was referring to this in Andrew Gilligan's report: "Forty feet away from the crater made on Thursday by a NATO bomb, young boys and girls played happily..."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:04 PM

I reacted to McGrath's post .... it sparked that song from deep in my memory ... just a touch of music revelance to this thread ... after all, the Madcat is basically a music website.

anyway

on with the arguments and debating.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:07 PM

Oooops ... I meant relevance, not revelance .... just wanted to make a correction before some tight ass tries to slam dunk me with that one.

biLL   ... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 11 - 05:20 PM

Childrens' playgrounds placed on top of U boat pens.
That would be equivalent to what we see here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 06:31 PM

The thing is, what "we see herre" is never the whole picture, and can't be. We can only speculate about many significant details.

For example, was that children's roundabout which was mentioned placed there after the bombing started, or has it been there since a time when there was no expectation that foreign countries, which at that time were friendly, would soon be carrying out bombing raids?   We just don't have that kind of information.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:00 PM

Newsflash: Blackwater is going into Libya to help the rebels.

The U.S. doesn't like Gadafi and they want another dictator in there that they can do
business with.

As Hillary says, "regime change".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:14 PM

"Blackwater is going into Libya to help the rebels."

Blackwater or whatever they renamed themselves goes where the big bucks flow. I do wonder who is paying them in advance.

Actually I think Blackadder should be sent in.

Akenaton-

"Thank fuck it wont be long till Scotland is free from the warmongering bastards."

Good luck on that, but watch out for them drones.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 11 - 12:06 AM

"another dictator".      Drivel--from one of our most dependable sources.    Yes folks, another brilliant leftist observation.

Blissfully free, as always, from logic, evidence, and facts.

Nice to know some things don't change.




And by the way, if Blackwater is to be employed, let's have a source on this scoop. My understanding is that it is a possibility, not a fact.

I will defer to anybody with a good source on the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 11 - 02:48 AM

McG, I tend to agree with you on this thread, but I think you are wrong about this.
Gilligan said, ""This is a place of recreation, a public park where the people of Tripoli often come," insisted Moussa Ibrahim, the government spokesman. But this "public park" is reached by passing through no fewer than four concentric rings of 15-foot blast walls, checkpoints and sentry towers. Heavily armed guards stand around the outermost perimeter, moving on any passer-by who might mistake the place for somewhere to throw a frisbee. "

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:23 AM

Ron Davis....would you be prepared to accept bets on the outcome of the soon to be held elections in the new "democratic" Egypt.

And, if the West succeeds in assasinating Col Gadaffi,have you any idea who or what will replace him?

Remember how we were assured that the Brotherhood had"no intention of contesting future elections"
Well those elections are being rushed through and guess which is the most organised and popular faction?
The liberal Democrats?.....wrong!
The "liberal" Conservatives?....wrong!
The Socialist Party of Egypt?....wrong!

We told you so!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 11 - 07:33 AM

No matter what government is elected it will have been chosen by the people, a right they have fought for and won.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 May 11 - 08:22 AM

What, exactly, would it prove if (and AFAIK it is only *if*)
"Xe Services" (formerly known as "Blackwater") "is going into Libya to help the rebels"?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 11 - 09:10 AM

Ake-

We are talking about Libya--only.

If you would take off your blinders and read a bit, you'd see there are all sorts of indications the Libyans are in fact headed in the right direction--at least the rebels are.    The regime's schools were closed in Benghazi; they now have volunteers staffing the schools.   They have volunteers as traffic cops.   Volunteers as garbage collectors.

They are trying their best to put a government together.   And there is no dictator.

Gadhafi will likely soon be under indictment from the International Criminal Court, a branch of the UN, for crimes against his own people.

His reaction:   Libyra does not recognize this court.

Please tell us all the wonderful things Gadhafi has done and explain why a huge chunk of his own people want him gone.






Look, a very large number of the rebels are intellectuals. I would think you would identify with them.

Exactly what do you have against them?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 11 - 09:57 AM

"Libya does not.."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 May 11 - 08:48 AM

NATO announced this morning that its bombers had sunk eight Libyan warships last night in Tripoli Harbor. Here's the story from Al Jazeera: Click here for story

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 11 - 03:24 AM

Poster appears to be akenaton

---

No one can still be denying that this is simply about regime change.

These ships were obviously at anchor, not taking part in ending the insurrection and probably were partially crewed.

Simply murder,as cold blooded as the daily shooting of unarmed protesters in Syria.

I wonder if, when the Muslim Brotherhood take control of Egypt, will the penny drop in the minds to ordinary folks in USA, UK and Mudcat, that we have been duped again......and led by donkeys!

And Charley, maybe NATO will aim their drones at Westminster!!
Aye that WILL be right. It will be classified as an insurgency against the UK government and Crown.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 11 - 09:32 AM

akenaton-

We're not going to agree on which side to support in Libya. But so far it seems unlikely that NATO will be targeting Westminster or even Glasgow. When they do, I'm prepared to weigh the arguments put forth by either side.

I don't consider soldiers, sailors, or aviators of the Gadhafi regime in the same category as "unarmed protesters" or "innocent civilians." By their recent actions such as mining harbors and indiscriminate shelling of residential urban areas they have placed themselves in the category of NATO targets.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 21 May 11 - 09:59 AM

>When they do, I'm prepared to weigh the arguments put forth by either side.

So what are you doing on this thread?

Some people...!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:00 AM

I'm trying to think if there are any acts of war which not be claimed by our leaders as justified ways of "protecting civilians". They already appear to have used cluster bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:58 AM

McGrath-

"They already appear to have used cluster bombs."

"They" and I could be wrong were the Gadhafi forces a few weeks ago, lobbing them in as shells or rockets at Misrata.

So hard to keep score when so few care!

But you make a good general point.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 11 - 12:21 PM

Yes, Gaddaffi's side also appears to have been using cluster bombs. But it just seems they aren't the only ones.

Like the United States, and a handful of other countries (eg Israel, Russia, China), Libya has not ratified the International Convention on Cluster Munitions.

The other countries involved in this war have signed the Convention, so it would be illegal for them to use cluster bombs. However the Convention was specially modified to make it legal for counties which have signed it to cooperate militarily with non-signatories who use such weapons.

So that's all right, so long as the only NATO people using these weapons are USA...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 11 - 12:28 PM

I haven't seen any reference to NATO forces using cluster bombs, can you provide a link to your information source?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 11 - 01:48 PM

Here's a video clip claimed to show this.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 11 - 02:04 PM

I would be very careful believing what the original poster of that vid clip says about it. If you go to his site or read the comments at the original YouTube posting it would appear that he is someone with an anti American agenda. Here is one of the comments:

"This was not a cluster bomb, nor was it in Brega. (If that was a cluster bomb then Misrata would be wiped off the map because Gaddafi forces have been shelling non-stop with those for a while now.) Anyways, this video is of an ammunition dump in the Benina Airport area in Benghazi exploding, this was reported a while back. It was a result of sabotage or an accident as there was no fighting anywhere near there nor in Benghazi at the time.

I am Libyan, also from Benghazi. Search Benghazi Explosion
BarcaFeb17 3 weeks ago 3

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:48 PM

Bobad-

Interesting. We do need to check out as well as we can the bias of our sources, and identify what it is up front if we can.

I generally find Al Zazeera a useful source, knowing that they are certainly not biased in favor of the US. CNN appears to be less than reliable to me; too often they appear to jump to conclusions on the basis of what will make a dramatic headline.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 May 11 - 08:49 AM

Al-Jazeera is no less biased than any other news organization.

But in light of its primary audience, when it does *not* repeat or endorse a story critical of the US or Israel, that should mean it doesn't believe the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 May 11 - 07:08 AM

"claimed" is the right word.

As noted by others, there is precisely zero proof that the caption "Obama uses cluster bombs on civilians..." has any validity whatsoever.

Anybody who would accept this video as proof of what the poster of the video says only shows his or her gullibility.

Gee, I wonder if the poster---and anybody who believes it--is left of center.

Do leftists ever do research?    Sometimes it seems unlikely they do.

They are great at smearing.    Not so wonderful at anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 11 - 01:23 PM

Looking at this from a UK perspective, when we were interning our subjects without trial, torturing them, financing assasination squads and shooting protesters in cold blood,only a few years ago....I dont remember anyone being called to account, or charges of crimes against humanity brought.

If this situation were to arise again tommorow, would NATO feel oliged to kill our Prime Minister, sink our navy and engagfe in mass slaughter of our troops?.....I think not.

Attack helicopters are being readied to kill Col Gadaffis troops wherever they can be found ......Regime change, simple and as illegal as hell.

When you see the results of the coming election in Egypt, come back and tell me this is "all about democracy"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:14 PM

Video clip posted by MGOH does not look anything like a strike using "Cluster" Bombs.

It does look like a small initial single explosion that then causes sympathetic detonation - It all comes out from one point and blossoms - A typical pattern for "cluster" munitions is simultaneous over a wider spread, the "bomblets" being released and spread from the bomb or shell carrying them.

The version of this being an ammunition store cooking off fits the visual evidence in Kevin's link.

Akenaton tell me where I get this order of events wrong:

1. Libyan protesters take to the streets

2. Gaddafi calls in the army and orders them to shoot

3. Sections of the Libyan Armed Forces refuse to fire on unarmed civilians

4. Gaddafi brings in foreign mercenaries to shoot those protesting

5. Sections of the Libyan Armed Forces desert, the protesters raid Government armouries and arm themselves in order to defend themselves from atack.

6. Gaddafi vows to destroy Benghazi, stating clearly that the people will pay a price in blood for their actions

7. Arab League appeals to the UN to act.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 11 - 04:28 PM

That may be your interpretation of events T.

I dont necessarily accept everything I am fed by our military or government, whereas the events in Derry were there for all to see.

Who says G personally ordered the army to shoot? Who ordered 2 Para to shoot?

2,3,4,5 Hearsay!

6 Untrue...G vows to hunt down the "criminal insurgents" in "streets, houses or wardrobes"......not "destroy Benghazi"
7 The Arab league is a joke, led by corrupt quislings.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:29 PM

akenaton-

There are times when the difference in philosophy or political perspective is too wide to bridge. So we're never going to agree on anything having to do with Libya, and the funny thing is that even if I'm totally wrong in my assumptions we still wouldn't agree!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:42 AM

Our actions in Iraq....Basically US/UK with a few stragglers, led arguably to the deaths of hundreds of thousands.....we walk away with our "hands clean", yet Col Gadaffi and his supporters have to be blown to pieces because of the way he finds it necessary to keep order in a tribal land.....A negotiated solution will no longer suffice,he and his supporters must be killed just as Saddam had to be killed.....and we think WE do not evoke tribalism?

We make the old mistake of trying to export our form of democracy...which is simply a tool of political manipulation, into the minds of children and dreamers.
The endgame will be what we now see in Iraq....a lawless corrupt state ruled by mad clerics, with no decent infrastructure and the violent suppression of women.

We seem to be doing everything that we should not be doing in the Middle East and North Africa.

Observe how Chinese influence is achieved.... by helping underdeveloped nations to become productive, not by turning them into war blasted wastelands!

"None so blind".....etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:24 AM

As far as I'm concerned, the President committed an impeachable offense, going to war, without going to Congress, and going against the 'War Powers' act......but then, the international bankers made him do it!...you know, those guys he keeps bailing out, and giving away OUR tax money to....under the guise of bailouts, interest on the loans, and anything else they can dream up, to line their pockets with!!!
Its so much bullshit!
The 'Left' or the 'Right' is just YOUR dream....WAKE UP!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 08:29 AM

>...our form of democracy...is simply a tool of political manipulation...

It is, however, the least manipulative tool yet developed.

On the other hand, autocrats like G don't need to "manipulate." They routinely use murder and extortion because that's the highest form of morality they know.

The Chinese method...it's coming back to me now...the Cultural Revolution and the slaughter of millions.

But at least it wasn't "manipulative."

By way of contrast, I'll repeat what I said earlier: after four years of bloody Civil War, the liberal U.S. Government did not find it necessary to impose mass executions or even prison sentences on its enemies. Those enemies, despite their unconscionable support of slavery, were sufficiently democratic and non-"tribal" to refrain from launching decades of guerrilla (not to mention terrorist)warfare.

I'm sure Chairman Mao, brainiac of the Cultural Revolution, had a different interpretation of these events.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 May 11 - 11:38 AM

I would agree that George W. Bush's invasion of Iraq was ill-advised, adventuristic, unsupported by any world body, and had a terrible cost in terms of loss of Iraqi life, loss of life and wounded among our own soldiers and those of a few allies ("The Coalition of the Willing"), and the monetary costs have almost bankrupted our economy.

I don't view the strategy in Libya in the same way;

There was a clear threat to the civilians in Rebel-held areas
There was initial support from the Arab League
There was support from the UN
There was action via NATO
There are no NATO troops on the ground.
Civilian casualties in Gahdafi-held areas have been surprisingly few

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:14 PM

Lighter.....China today and China under Chairman Mao, are two different places.

The REAL question is, would China today be the fastest growing economy in the world and the most influential in the third world, if Mao had never existed?
There is a man for all seasons....and who will be the West's man for the raging winter which has yet to come?

Charley.....get a grip, why is Assad being allowed to slaughter protesters with hardly a whimper from the West?

Why no vocal support for the protest movements in Saudi, Syria, Bahrain?

Three guesses
1.....Because "our monsters" control these countries and it is not in our interests to have these monsters removed.....its called hypocrisy!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:17 PM

Akenaton

1. "The protests, unrest and confrontations began in earnest on 15 February 2011. On the evening of 15 February, between 500 and 600 demonstrators protested in front of the police headquarters in Benghazi after the arrest of human rights lawyer Fathi Terbil. The protest was broken up violently by police, resulting in 38 injured"

2. "The protests continued the following day in Benghazi, Darnah and Al Bayda. Libyan security responded with lethal force. Four demonstrators were killed and three wounded." - Source Al-Jazeera report dated 16th February, 2011

3. "A "Day of Rage" in Libya and by Libyans in exile was planned for 17 February. The National Conference for the Libyan Opposition asked that all groups opposed to the Gaddafi regime protests on 17 February, in memory of demonstrations in Benghazi five years earlier. The plans to protest were inspired by the 2010–2011 Tunisian and Egyptian uprisings. Protests took place in Benghazi, Ajdabiya, Darnah, Az Zintan, and Al Bayda. Libyan security forces fired live ammunition into the protests, including .50 caliber sniper ammunition. Some of the gunfire came from helicopters." - Sources, Asharq Al-Awsat; Al-Jezeera & Malta Today

4. "Gaddafi referred to the protesters as "cockroaches" and "rats", and vowed not to step down and to cleanse Libya house by house until the insurrection was crushed. Gaddafi declared that people who don't "love" him "do not deserve to live" - Sources, Haaretz; Daily Telegraph; The Times of Malta; Al Arabiya.

5. "Soon after Gaddafi's government started to use force against demonstrators, it became apparent that some Libyan military units refused to shoot protesters, and Gaddafi had hired foreign mercenaries to do the job. Gaddafi's ambassador to India Ali al-Essawi confirmed that the defections of military units had indeed led to such a decision." Source The jamestown Foundation and as stated in passage quoted (Libyan Ambassador to India)

Not much hearsay at all Akenaton, Tell me who else in Libya would order the Libyan Armed Forces to fire on the protesters as they undoubtedly did? Care to tell us how many of Gaddafi's sons command the elite elements of the Libyan Armed Forces?

A thoroughly evil man who declared war on his own people, the sooner he is done away with the better for all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:00 PM

Not exactly on topic, but related, and for some silly biased based reason no one started a thread about this, but, Benjamin Natanyahu's speeches to AIPAC, and the Congress, kicked butt!!...It was nice to see a LEADER, instead of the spin machine, for the international bankers, for a change!!..Someone even asked, "Are you sure YOU don't have a birth certificate in Hawaii?"
He blew Obama's shit out of the water...and BOTH sides of Congress acknowledged it, including that slime-sucker Reid!!...and getting 29 standing ovations from both parties...> Here's a c/p from ABC 'news':

Today, ABC News' Jonathan Karl described Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's speech to Congress as seeming like a "State of the Union address by a president with sky-high approval ratings" due in part to the numerous standing ovations the foreign leader received. This apparently gave Karl an idea. He went back and counted the number of applause breaks and compared it to the amount President Obama got during his last actual SOTU address. Guess who got more?

Oh. I guess the headline kind of gives the answer away. Oh well.

Yes, Netanyahu received 29 applause breaks compared to Obama's paltry 25. This proves one thing; going to these things must be exhausting. Up, down. Up, down. If they had a big address like this everyday, everyone in Congress would look like Aaron Schock.



From ABC News:

    "One of his biggest applause lines was aimed directly at President Obama.

    'Israel will not return to the indefensible boundaries of 1967,' Netanyahu said, prompting a big standing ovation.

    Later he added: 'Israel on the 1967 lines would be only 9 miles wide. So much for defensible borders.'"


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:18 PM

Akenaton:

So Mao's murderous policies were justified because China today has a fast-growing economy and no Bill of Rights?

George Washington and his friends did a better job. Again, no executions required.

GfS:
>One of his biggest applause lines was aimed directly at President Obama.

ABC News has fallen a long way. Obama said that the 1967 borders should provide the basis for negotiations. That means that the current borders are negotiable within reason.

If he'd said instead that the *current* borders should be the basis, that would imply that he wants a settlement very close to what exists now, and conceivably even more territory for Israel.

His choice of words was an olive branch to the Palestinians (or at least the ones who don't demand the destruction of Israel) and nothing more.

Once negotiations begin (if they do), both sides will demand whatever they want anyway. If nobody walks out, they keep talking. It's called "negotiating." Maybe they'll agree to something, maybe not.

Obama did not call in any way for a return to the 1967 borders. Read the speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:32 PM

lighter: "Obama did not call in any way for a return to the 1967 borders. Read the speech."

I watched it live, as well as both speeches by Natanyahu ..and there's one for the Senate as well, which I'll watch. The consensus is that our toy president did a lot of back-peddling, from the intentional vague 'trial balloon'. Obama substantially damaged his own self, and once again his credibility is plummeting after the nation got a chance to witness a true statesman perform! Natanyahu, kicked ass!
that being said, there are things about him that I'm not so sure about either...BUT, after Obama's stupid drivel, he MUST have known, this was going to be a cakewalk....and it was.
I believe from EVERY report that I've heard, or person I've talked to, about it, that it was SUPER refreshing to hear from someone who actually loved their country..more than their own personal self image!

GfS

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:07 PM

Netanyahu may have "kicked ass," as you put it, but it wasn't Obama's.

"Toy president." Whose toy? I'll ask Al Qaida.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:49 PM

Lighter....I justify nothing, I simply put up ideas for consideration.

BTW.....Todays America is far removed from George Washingtons America. Although they still pay lip service to a Bill of rights, in practice there is none.

As in all Americas satellites money talks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:58 PM

To condense T's cut and paste .....from dubious sources, its because Gadaffi is "a bad man"..."deranged"..."a looney".....none of which is any of our business.

Our business should be dealing with our own "bad man" and "deranged looney" Mr Tony Blair.

But what have we done with him?.....made him Middle East peace envoy!
Its like putting the wolf in charge of the sheep!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:59 PM

Lighter.....China today and China under Chairman Mao, are two different places.

The REAL question is, would China today be the fastest growing economy in the world and the most influential in the third world, if Mao had never existed?" - Akenaton

It would probably have got there about forty years ago and there would definitely have been an extra 70 million odd people who would have lived to enjoy that transformation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:20 PM

>Todays America is far removed from George Washingtons America. Although they still pay lip service to a Bill of rights, in practice there is none.

Far removed indeed, but not in the ways of due process under the law. Since the abolition of slavery and segregation, the system has clearly improved.

And would you explain your statement about the Bill of Rights? (They don't have one in Libya or China - to give two non-controversial examples.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:22 PM

"It would probably have got there about forty years ago and there would definitely have been an extra 70 million odd people who would have lived to enjoy that transformation."

Wrong Teribus, it would probably be in terminal decline like all of the other imperialist, capitalist empires!

Lighter....does their love of liberty and equality extend to the people of other nations, Vietnam and Iraq springing immediately to mind?.....or is death another definition of "freedom"?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:33 PM

Charley...It matters little whether we agree or not, we can discuss these matters with civility, that is a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:38 PM

So the modern day "Peoples" Republic of China is NOT Capitalist??

Strange that, because while they were all good communists they were as poor as church mice and starving for the most part.

"Peoples" Republic?? Of course the "people" saw damn all of the rewards they were all the sole reserve of the "animals who were more equal than others" i.e. those selected to be "honoured" as members of the "Party".

The only Empire I have seen collapse in my lifetime Akenaton is the Communist one.

India is in terminal decline is it Akenaton?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:42 PM

>does their love of liberty and equality extend to the people of other nations, Vietnam and Iraq springing immediately to mind?.....or is death another definition of "freedom"?

The question was about the Bill of Rights, inviolate (if occasionally battered) since 1789.

Without it, there'd be no discussion about what sort of trials - civil or military - Guantanamo prisoners deserve. They'd simply be hanged, which some Americans would prefer.

Nobody in authority (much less the head of state) has seriously suggested that any prisoners, even dangerous enemies of the nation, be summarily executed.

Because in U.S. custody they have rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 11 - 01:08 AM

Ah Akenaton "Sources" are only dubious when they happen to disagree with your version of events are they?

Eye-witness accounts?

Civilian casualties being treated in hospitals did what? Shoot themselves?

Bodies of civilian protesters on the streets that had to be buried were what? Bodies dug up or removed from mortuaries and arranged as required?

Defecting soldiers, political allies and Government ministers and appointees are ALL lying?

And the daft thing is he (Gaddafi) has done all this before during his 40 year reign.

Stick your head back in the sand Akenaton and sing a couple of verses of "The Internationale", then you'll feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 05:32 AM

Maybe this is why the British Royal Air Force has been missing a hell of a lot of it's intended targets !

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390818/Libya-pilots-inappropriate-behaviour-Two-RAF-airmen-flown-home-drunk.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 11 - 07:25 AM

India too will decline in time Teribus, decline is built into the system.

By then of course we shall have aquired the status of a third world country and the wheel shall be back on the rise.
That is, excluding any catastrophic wars engineered by desperate capitalists to protect their precious system.

Then we shall see how much life and liberty means to our leaders
Col Gadaffi will look like the Christmas Fairy in comparison.

BTW Teribus, although I used to be a member of the Communist Party, I now realise that a lifetime of work in the "common good" without any sense of personal fulfillment, is as unsustainable as Capitalism itself.

The difference Teribus, is that I can see beyond any ideology whereas you are stuck in a time warp when people still believed the lie that Capitalism would be capable of providing for modern society.
Get your head out of the mire and recognise what is happening to your Empire......

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 08:23 AM

That 5:32 a.m. post was not from me but from some impersonator.

I am no longer a "GUEST."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 11 - 09:42 AM

Well Akenaton the track records of Capitalism and Communist Socialism illustrate that while the former is flexible and capable of infinite adaptation to fulfil the needs and requirements of the society it serves the latter is not, nor will it ever be capable of doing so.

How many times now have you tolled "Capitalism's" death knell? How many times have you been wrong?

Gaddafi's days are over, sooner the better as far as I am concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 11 - 12:46 PM

Teribus: "The only Empire I have seen collapse in my lifetime Akenaton is the Communist one."

Stay tuned..and you can watch ours collapse as well!.....- because we are but pretty much, adopting their same policies!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 01:50 PM

Do you mean labor camps? A one-party system? Government-run media? Show trials? Abolition of religion and closing of houses of worship? Imprisonment for criticizing the government? The entire economy run by a few clueless officials? Government permission needed to travel from city to city? Limited or no due process of law? Enforced collectivization of agriculture and industry? Oligarchy? No news but official propaganda? Extensive secret police network? Abolition of free enterprise? Food lines? Years-long waiting lists for vacations, apartments, etc.? Truly rotten public services? Minorities shipped to arbitrarily identified "autonomous (but really not)regions"? Declared interests of the state always put ahead of the individual? All art, music, and literary criticism based on the doctrines of nineteenth-century economists Marx & Engels? Parliament of yes-men? The official encyclopedia of world knowledge constantly revised by the government to fit the latest propaganda view - with all mention of certain important historical figures deleted for being too controversial to know about? Rigged elections? Threats and brute force used to quash all political dissent?

Not much similarity that I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 11 - 02:11 PM

How is our Capitalist system adjusting and adapting T?

By robbing the poor and giving to the rich?

The bail out of the capitalist system was a disgrace, quite simply robbery, to save a system which is bound to fail again.

Capitalism has many moral faults T, but it's biggest fault is that it is ultimately unable to sustain itself.

If the people are to be used as consumers, they must be given the means to buy consumables and be kept reasonably healthy.

Unfortunately we no longer vable to compete on the sloping pitch created by global capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 May 11 - 04:51 PM

Meanwhile back on the ranch:

UK and France to deploy 16 gunships for Libya

By George Parker in Deauville
Published: May 26 2011 20:06 | Last updated: May 26 2011 20:06

"France and Britain are putting 16 ground attack helicopters on standby to launch attacks on Muammer Gaddafi's regime in Libya amid claims in the west that his grip on power is weakening.

France has sent 12 Tiger and Gazelle helicopters on the carrier Tonnerre while British officials said on Thursday that David Cameron, UK prime minister, had signed off on the deployment of four Apache aircraft."

Evidently NATO is adding to their military options in an attempt to increase the pressure on Gadhafi to run to Venezuela.

Charley Noble

EDITOR'S CHOICE
Arab democracies win G8 aid pledge - May-26

Global insight: Rulers' fate hangs on militaries - May-26

Hundreds flee Yemeni capital as 40 more die - May-26

Tunisia tensions focus on 'British Gas' plant - May-26

Worried tourists turn backs on Egypt - May-26

In depth: Middle East protests - May-16

The Apaches, aboard HMS Ocean in the Mediterranean, would be operational within days, with an expectation that Nato could send them into action soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 11 - 07:13 PM

Hmmm....helicopter gunships to protect civilians.....Shurely shome mishtake!

Just watched the Question Time audience in Exeter sit in stoney silence, while an assortment of political puppets attempted to make a case for what is happening in Libya.
Their case basically amounted to "but there may have been a massacre of civilians"...they then misquoted Col Gadaffi in the same way that some posters here have done.
There was a huge cheer for the audience member who said that difference between our treatment of Libya, Syria, or Bahrain was OIL, not democracy or human rights.

"BTW Teribus, although I used to be a member of the Communist Party, I now realise that a lifetime of work in the "common good" without any sense of personal fulfillment, is as unsustainable as Capitalism itself."
I think I had better explain that point, by "personal fulfillment" I do not mean the accumulation of personal wealth.
Most of the really rich people I have encountered are the least personally fulfilled.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 08:05 PM

How does interfering with Gaddafi's long established and dependable oil exportations help the greedy capitalists who are supposedly running the show?

I've been asking this question since the beginning, but no one seems to have an answer. All they "know" is that "it's about the oil!" Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 May 11 - 09:04 PM

Gaddafi might have stayed in power with the support of the international community if he had waited out the peaceful protests, or even made some minor concessions. But he didn't. He decided that a military response was called for to suppress peaceful protest, backed up with unleashing his secret police to kidnap, interrogate and torture the protest leaders.

So it goes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 May 11 - 09:14 PM

Because, Ake, helicopters can get much closer to the ground--and ensure, therefore that their fire is accurate.   So less danger to civilians.

There is of course more danger to the helicopters and their crews than to the crews of planes higher up.

So those against Western involvement in Libya can start right now with their "I told you so" whines for the--inevitable over time--casualties to Western military participants.



Which is why the US should jump back in fully--to shorten the time frame dramatically.

As I said earlier, time to lance this boil.

Particularly since the rebels are running low on funds.

And the US has not even recognized their provisional government--I gather because of complications in Congress.

Seems a pretty flimsy excuse to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 10:06 PM

I forgot something about State Socialism: the imposition of one's educational training and occupation by bureaucrats who have to meet a quota.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 11 - 07:38 AM

Lighter ....I did mention further up the thread, the fact that Col Gadaffi was about to tear up a multi billion oil rights contract with BP, shortly before the insurgency started.

I suppose we decided that it would be easier to use the insurgency as a pretext to kill or remove Col Gadaffi and his supporters than agree to the conditions required by his oil ministry.

Ex CIA man writes in todays Times on the "Arab Spring" and how we fail to understand the situation
"Mr Scheuer said that the cause of violent extremism was undimmed, despite claims that the Arab Spring demonstrated its rejection. "We in the West have come away from the Egypt experience thinking democracy is on the march there. I doubt it. We have listened to the folks who we agree with, and say the things we want to hear."

He said that US/UK foreign policy and Western intervention defined its relationship with the Muslim world. "There are almost 900 pages of primary sources on bin Laden — sermons, speeches, etc ... There is almost nothing in there about waging a war against the West for its freedoms or liberty or gender equality or drinking alcohol.

"It is support for Israel, support for the Saudi police state, it's our presence in the Arab peninsula, it's support for the Russians in the Islamic Caucuses.

"There is no more effective recruiter for al-Qaeda than the status quo of American foreign policy." Full article

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:44 AM

>"We have listened to the folks who we agree with, and say the things we want to hear."

Yeas, but who doesn't?

It's true that OBL didn't care how much booze we drink in the West or how many women vote. And it's equally true that the claim that he attacked the West because he "hated our freedoms" is the truth dumbed down to caricature.

However, opposition to Israel, the Saudi regime, and the Western presence in Arabia, are just specific manifestations of what Al- Qaida really wants. (Even its opposition to the Russians seems based on the jihad mentality as much as on any political idealism.)

What Al-Qaida wants is a Muslim Caliphate in Eurasia and eventually everywhere. That's how they read the Koran, and they read it that way partly because they're angry, violent people - including some genuine sadists like OBL - looking for God's permission to express their own violent aggressions. The honest ones really think they're doing God's work by scourging the infidel. (You don't blow yourself up or crash into a skyscraper just because you're bored or perverse.)

There's no way to know whether Al-Qaida will wax or wane, or how often. Its declared enemies have to make whatever defensive choices they think will be most effective. And they can be wrong. That's life in the swamp.

The same principle goes for the outcome of the "Arab spring." There's no telling where it will go.

As for BP's oil deal with G, his threat to "tear it up" (if he made it) sound like a demand to renogotiate. Deals are renogotiated all the time. Why should he cut off his best customers? If oil had been the "real" issue, NATO would have attacked anyway, rebels or no rebels. Where's the evidence that an attack, with serious political risks in the Arab world, was even being planned? And if the rebels were the deciding factor, they were the deciding factor. That's good enough for me.

Complicated political events (like a NATO attack) don't stem from one or two reductionist causes like greedy capitalists *or* selfless idealism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:46 AM

I note you fail to mention the avowed aim of militant Islam to impose it's religious law on the world as a cause of violent extremism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:48 AM

My post was directed at Akenaton's previous post.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 11 - 12:02 PM

From Al Jazeera

"Russia has agreed to mediate the exit of Muammar Gaddafi, Libya's leader, after leaders at the Group of Eight (G8) meeting in France called on Russia to take the role.

Sergei Ryabkov, the Russian deputy foreign minister, told reporters on Friday that "Gaddafi has forfeited legitimacy" and that Russia is ready "to help him go".

Soon after, Mikhail Margelov, Moscow's special representative on Africa told reporters that his country is ready to negotiate Gaddafi's departure.

Margelov explained that Russia is in contact with Gaddafi's entourage, and that they are willing to negotiate Libyan leader's fate."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 11 - 01:12 PM

The "Band of Brothers"

What are they going to do with Saudi, Syria, Bahrain?

Fuck all thats what!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 11 - 10:41 PM

Ake--

From your list of the West's sins, it does not appear Libya is on it.

Good reason, if true:    in Libya the West is standing against a tyrant, for once---and also not invading.

For the n'th time, we are there at the fervent entreaties of fighters against a tyranny--rebels whose main complaint is that we are not doing enough, not that we are engaged in an imperialist campaign---since we are not engaged in such a campaign.   Except to armchair socialists who recognize nothing outside their cartoon Marxist world.

You were also going to tell us what you have against all the intellectuals who make us a large part of the rebels.

Can't understand how you have forgotten to address this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 11 - 10:42 PM

"who make up a large part"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 May 11 - 01:50 PM

Another update with regard to the desperate battle for Misurata Airport from Al Jazeera in this excellent video: click here for report!

The control tower looks undamaged as well as the runway and some service should be able to be restored shortly.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 11 - 03:44 PM

Pedantic point: Whether someone is "an intellectual" isn't really that relevant. Intellectuals are just as capable of being on the wrong side as anyone else. There were intellectuals among those supporting Hitler and Stalin, for example.

I'd be very surprised if you couldn't find intellectuals among Gaddafi's supporters as well as among his opponents.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 11 - 05:22 PM

Far more intellectuals among the rebels.   The reason is obvious---Gaddhafi has strict censorship.    You might be aware that intellectuals like to express themselves---or possibly you're not aware of this.   In which case you might want to do some reading--rather than sounding off from ignorance.

You might even read this thread--including the quote I cite by an intellectual who points out one of the problems is that Gaddhafi resents the idea that anything good could come from another source than him.

In his mind and those of his supporters, he embodies Libya.   The rebels beg to disagree.   And that is a real source of discord--to put it mildly.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 11 - 05:32 PM

In fact Gaddhafi is much like Hitler in that regard:    Hitler was thought to embody Germany as Gaddhafi Libya.

And the facile assertion that some intellectuals supported Hitler is amazingly meaningless.

As I recall, some intellectuals--to say the least--left Germany rather quickly.   You might want to read some history on this point. Compare the number who stayed with the number who left--and their prominence.

And by and large those who stayed were sorry they had done so.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 11 - 05:52 PM

I really wish that you could rely on intellectuals to be on the right side - maybe you could find out which was the right side by counting up intellectuals...

However I'm afraid there has never been any shortages of intellectuals among those promoting the nastiest ideologies.

Of course it is always possible to define the term intellectual so that it is restricted to those with whom we agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 11 - 07:41 PM

Ron.... I think you would be wise to stick to politics....and leave philosophy,satire, irony etc, to Mr McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 May 11 - 07:18 PM

"promoting the nastiest ideologies"

Another meaningless statement. Congratulations.



First, how many Jewish intellectuals were promoting Nazism in the 3rd Reich?   And how many fled Germany?

Secondly, you need to research the term "Gleichschaltung".    In the 3rd Reich it was crystal clear what ideology was to be promoted.   Others were unerwunscht.   And this was also clear. If you think intellectuals were happy with Gleichschaltung, you need to do a lot more research.

Only if you stretch the term "intellectual" way beyond any rational meaning to include Goebbels, Rosenberg ,etc and the bureaucrats under them does your assertion have any chance--and then it is a caricature.

Which is unsurprising.

Thirdly you need to study the term "inner migration".

Then perhaps you will be possibly able to make a reasonable statement.

If you have any interest in doing so--which at this point is questionable.


Added to which I note you have not addressed the crux of the problem--which is, as I said, that intellectuals want to express themselves--not parrot the line of the rulers.

In Libya today, they have the opportunity to express themselves--but only under the Benghazi government, not under the Gaddafi regime.   So a large number have voted with their feet---just as a huge number voted with their feet in Germany--or indeed were forced out.   With well-known benefits to places like Hollywood in the 30's.

There is a huge list of expatriate intellectuals who left Germany and the Nazi-dominated parts of Europe in the 30's.

The list of those who would be considered "intellectuals" and worked for the 3rd Reich is much shorter.

As anybody who has any grasp of history should know.


Unless that person is an ideological warrior.    Which seems to be a likely answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 May 11 - 09:03 PM

I do wonder what is happening in Libya while the fires burn above but my desktop computer died today and I'm stuck with my Notebook for a day or two.

Anyone else willing to post an update?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 11 - 09:19 PM

For one thing Charley, it seems that the Russians have realized that Gaddafi was not going to win and have switched allegiance, saying now that he must go and offering to negotiate his departure.

Also more than 100 community and tribal leaders from Libya have met with members of the opposition National Transitional Council at a conference in Turkey, in a bid to show a united front against Gaddafi.

Most of the tribal leaders who gathered in Istanbul on Saturday and Sunday, were from the powerful Warfalla clan based in Baniwalid, a city in western Libya.

The delegates were calling for an end to the violence in Libya and the departure of Libyan leader Gaddafi and his sons.

The meeting has been billed as a possible game-changer for the Gaddafi government as the Warfalla are said to have been supporting Gaddafi militarily, especially around the western city of Misurata.

source Al Jazeera

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 11 - 03:14 AM

"Straes in the wind"

Just been listening to BBC radio...a senior analyst reporting from Cairo says that elections sould be held back from the muted date of Sept 11 as the Islamist parties (Muslim brotherhood) are extremely well organised and will win by a landslide.

This will tend to be the pattern for all of the so called Arab Spring countries......the creation of an Islamist axis, as planned.

I suppose that in itself is "democracy"......if there is such a thing in reality.

"The people" is indeed a beast of muddy brain, who fights for his chains, rather than be free!


Thomasso Campagnella

THE PEOPLE is a beast of muddy brain
That knows not its own strength, and therefore stands
Loaded with wood and stone; the powerless hands
Of a mere child guide it with bit and rein;
One kick would be enough to break the chain,         5
But the beast fears, and what the child demands
It does; nor its own terror understands,
Confused and stupefied by bugbears vain.
Most wonderful! With its own hand it ties
And gags itself—gives itself death and war         10
For pence doled out by kings from its own store.
Its own are all things between earth and heaven;
But this it knows not; and if one arise
To tell this truth, it kills him unforgiven.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 11 - 05:38 AM

According to an article in todays Times, calling for Gadaffi to be quickly "finished off", gangs in Benghazi are already murdering anyone associated with the regime, law and order is breaking down amongst the insurgents and they are splitting into factions.

Fundamentalists 1......"Democracy" 0 ?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 11 - 06:21 AM

The list of those who would be considered 'intellectuals' and worked for the 3rd Reich is much shorter.

But quite long enough to confirm what I said. As for the list of intellectuals who expressed support for Stalin...

As for: "promoting the nastiest ideologies" Another meaningless statement. The meaning seems pretty clear to me, and I suspect to most people.

However all this is drifting the thread a bit too far. I think the intellectual status of the people involved is not particularly relevant.

Here is a newspaper comment piece which does seem more relevant to me - Why no mention of a ceasefire for Libya, Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 11 - 10:28 AM

"what I said".    That is, to those who are determined to find an excuse not to intervene in Libya, any unsupported statement will do.

"monitoring mechanism".    Charmingly naive.

And how long will this be necessary, with the autocrat still in power?

Those who are not ideological warriors--and lazy to boot--- will see that some Western interventions are justified, and some are not.

If you are not an ideological warrior, who sees the threat of Western colonialism in every shadow, please cite just one example of a justified Western intervention in the Mideast.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 11 - 10:30 AM

And what Bobad says regarding Russia is particularly significant --and is supported also by solid sources like Reuters.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 11 - 02:07 PM

The opening words of Resolution 1973, which is the legal basis for this action are "Demanding an immediate ceasefire".

The immediate threat to the people of Benghazi which prompted this resolution is no longer there. Saving civilians was the basis for the resolution. Continuing military intervention to bring about regime change was not envisaged in the resolution.

Nor does it seem to be particularly likely to bring about such change, without a level of escalation that would risk causing signifi8canmt civilian deaths, this time in Tripoli.

Complying with the UN resolution's demand for an immediate ceasefire on the part of NATO need not improve Gaddafi's chances of staying in power. In fact the negotiations could well make it easier for people on his side who want to get rid of him to do so. It might also provide a chance for the regime in Benghazi to strengthen itself for a possible renewal of the fighting, if the negotiations break down.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 May 11 - 03:17 PM

Saving civilians is a ruse. What the administration wants is regime change under the guise of protecting civilians so to do business with a dictator they like.

What's the proof? The US is supporting dictators and citizen abuse and killing in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Bahrain, Indonesia, Palestine and other hot spots that have dictatorial control.

You will never introduce democracy or democratic values into a country at the point of a gun.

The only exception, some would say, would be the American Revolution against England. Yes, but do we have real democracy in the U.S. today?

Hasn't America become a hegemonic in its attempt at world domination?
Proof? American military bases across the world.

Does this provide security for the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 11 - 09:45 PM

"Eight senior officers who defected from Col Muammar Gaddafi's army have appealed to fellow soldiers to join them in backing the rebels.

One of the eight accused pro-Gaddafi forces of "genocide".

The men - who are said to include five generals - appeared at a news conference in Rome.

One of the generals who spoke to reporters in Rome, named as Oun Ali Oun, read an appeal to fellow soldiers and security officials to abandon the regime "in the name of the martyrs who have fallen in the defence of freedom".

He also denounced both "genocide" and "violence against women in various Libyan cities"

Another general, Melud Massoud Halasa, told reporters that Col Gaddafi's forces were "only 20% as effective" as they were before the rebellion, as "not more than 10" generals remained loyal to him.

Former Libyan Foreign Minister Abdel Rahman Shalgam, who now backs the rebels and appeared at the news conference, said a total of 120 soldiers had defected in recent days.

Since the start of the uprising in February dozens of army officers, government ministers, and diplomats have abandoned Col Gaddafi."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13596475

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 11 - 10:11 PM

"What is happening to our people has frightened us," said one officer, who identified himself as General Oun Ali Oun.

"There is a lot of killing, genocide ... violence against women. No wise, rational person with the minimum of dignity can do what we saw with our eyes and what he asked us to do."

Another officer, General Salah Giuma Yahmed, said Gaddafi's army was weakening day by day, with the force reduced to 20 per cent of its original capacity.

"Gaddafi's days are numbered," said Yahmed."

Al Jazeera

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 31 May 11 - 07:21 AM

U.S. democacy is real, it's just far from perfect.

Libyan, Syrian, Saudi, etc., democracy is nonexistent.

So there's a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 May 11 - 07:50 AM

So while we continue to debate international philosophy, Gadhafi's generals abandon his sinking ship. Anyone prefer to raise a fiddle tune?

Stringsinger-

Does the international military intervention in Bosnia fall into the same pattern, or was it a unique humanitarian intervention?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 11 - 12:50 PM

Col Gadaffi is fighting an insurgency driven by Western arms and military strikes....regime change is the name of the game....Stringsinger is right, "protection of civilians" is a sham, we want to get someone in power whom we can deal with.

The lie is proved by the daily shooting of civilian protesters in Syria, Bahrain, and now Yemen.

The end result will not be Western "democracy", but a fundamentalist Islamic axis.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 31 May 11 - 04:09 PM

> The end result will not be Western "democracy", but a fundamentalist Islamic axis.

That could be, but it could have been anyway. Maybe it won't be. We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 May 11 - 05:36 PM

"we want to get someone in power whom we can deal with.

Not a bad priority but I'm still not persuaded it's the only important one. And, sadly, there is no guarantee that Western powers will get a new government that they can deal with in a more business like way.

Akenaton-

Have you really nothing to say about Bosnia or does its recent history not fit conveniently into your analysis of NATO intervention?

Hey, we're all friends here, looking for insight!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 May 11 - 11:40 PM

WSJ. com, 31 May 2011:    Italy will be making millions of euros in urgently needed fuel supplies and cash available to the rebels.    "...billions of dollars of Libyan holdings inside Italy would be used as collateral."    This will happen "within weeks."

That should tip the balance against Gadhafi.

He should be gone by the end of summer--if not before.


So the amazingly naive suggestion of "monitoring" a settlement between Gadhafi and the rebels is a pathetic sideshow.    Fortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:54 AM

No reason an immediate ceasefire, as required by Resolution 1973, should stop Italy doing that. Might even make it easier:

Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

1. Demands the immediate establishment of a cease-fire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 03:56 PM

UN human rights council reports......"War crimes have been committed by the Gadaffi regime and the insurgents"......as I reported yesterday.

I suppose we will be "protecting" Col Gadaffi's civilians and turning our smart bombs on the rebels!

Meanwhile the slaughter of civilians goes on elsewhere unabated.
Hillary says "oh I do wish they would stop it"!!!
Cameron just ignores it.....the fat, self-satisfied, arrogant cunt!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 04:37 PM

Charley Noble, the military solution in Bosnia was too "easy". Why is it that when there's a diplomatic problem to be solved the US and other power countries send in the military?
That problem in Bosnia is not fixed. It is a problem that has had historical magnitude in the cultural life of the people. This is where the term "Balkanization" comes from.

The problem with Bosnia is that there were atrocities on all sides including Serbs, Croats, and Bosnians.

The most poignant and best model for social change in a country that is wracked with violence is Egypt, although they may have compromised their revolution by handing over the governmental authority to the military, not capable of operating in a democratic fashion but a hierarchical one.

Gadaffi will be replaced probably with someone equally heinous as we see with Assad, Salleh, the Caliphate, and King Abdullah. The US is interested in bombing a foreign country only when the political leadership sees this action as "in their interest". It's a quick fix which puts the proverbial band-aid on an open wound.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:01 PM

> The US is interested in bombing a foreign country only when the political leadership sees this action as "in their interest".

Thank God. Would you have them do it just for the hell of it? Or for idealistic reasons that look like they're sure to backfire?

The nature of international relations makes governments act above all in their own perceived interests. They'd be crazy not to - though sometimes, like Hitler and Mussolini, they badly misperceive those interests.

If the interests of the US coincide with those of the Libyan rebels, both can benefit.

Many voices have called for Gaddafi to resign pecefully. He didn't do it bfore, and he's not doing it now that bombs are falling.

His personal pride is understandable, but he owes it to his country to quit. The fact that he's willing to kill thousands of his own people to stay in power is reprehensible.

You can't reason with people like G any more than you could reason with Hitler or Mussolini. You either let them do their thing or you try to stop them.

Sometimes, fortunately, it seems advantageous to try to stop them.

If you base your international decisions solely on how many people are less likely to be killed or what will create the least amount of destruction, you give the sociopaths a free hand.

Of course, no matter what you do somebody will suffer. Once the shooting starts, you can't escape it till it's over.

Some might recommend Ghandilike passive resistance to the Libyan rebels. Personally I wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:05 PM

A well reasoned post there Lighter.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM

There are more ways than one to skin a cat.

Continued bombing, while totally ignoring the requirement in Resolution for "an immediate ceasefire", is not the best way.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 06:43 PM

Looks like we've just started another civil war chaps.

How can that be protecting civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 11:18 PM

Lighter has it right on the suggestion of a Gandhi-like approach for the rebels.   Hitler offered the unsolicited advice to British officials in India that they should just shoot Gandhi and a few hundred others.    Gadhafi won't even need the advice--that approach just comes natural to him. After all, what else can you do about "rats" and traitors?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 03:11 AM

1. "Looks like we've just started another civil war chaps."

For a start Akenaton you cannot force a civil war on a population who are happy with their lot, you cannot force a civil war on a population that do not want one.

I would venture that if anyone instigated this "civil war" that you refer to it was Colonel Muammar Gaddafi when he started killing civilian protesters back in February and March this year.

"Another civil war"?? What other ones have "we" started??

2: "How can that be protecting civilians?"

How can what be protecting civilians?

- A civil war? You have the choice you either stand there on the street or sit in your home and let Gaddafi's troops kill you and your family, or you take up arms and fight back. The former course of action guarantees loss of life and family, the latter at least gives you a chance at survival.

- Maintaining a "No-Fly Zone"? Prevents attacks by the Gaddafi side on civilian populations and population centres, that certainly saves civilian lives.

- Destroying formations massed to attack civilian centres of population? Definitely saves civilian lives? How many civilians are currently being shelled and killed in Misrata today Akenaton?

- Destroying Gadafi's means to command and control his remaining armed forces and mercenaries? Makes it difficult for him to wage war on his civilian population.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 07:03 AM

Saying "you cannot force a civil war" is a bit like saying "you cannot trigger an avalanche".

"A population who are happy with their lot" would be an excellent thing to have in any country. But I'd suggest sadly there are relatively few countries where there is not a significant part of the population at any time that is not that happy with its lot.
...........................

Resolution 1973 was an emergency response to fears of an imminent massacre of civilians. Whether such a massacre was in fact imminent is something about which there will no doubt be disputes by historians in the future, but there is a reasonable case for arguing that it was, and that an immediate no fly zone with military action to halt the advance of government troops into Benghazi was required.

But that is a separate matter from continuing air raids to bring about regime change in Tripoli, and refusing to make any efforts to implement the UN demand for "an immediate ceasefire" which was also contained in Resolution 1973.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 12:47 PM

Cherry picking at UN Security Council Resolution 1973 will not help your case Kevin. Establishing and maintaining the No-Fly Zone was only one of the measures 1973 sanctioned, the main focus and it's over-riding concern was the protection of civilians in Libya.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I distinctly remember that within hours of 1973 being passed one of Gaddafi's spokesmen appeared on Television broadcasting that a ceasefire was going to be put into effect immediately - That never happened of course Gaddafi and his mercenaries continued to slaughter Libyan civilians without even the briefest of pauses to let the twat finish making his speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 02:19 PM

Ceasefires have to be implemented by both sides to be effective.

There appears to have been no attempt to hold Gaddafi to a ceasefire by offering to reciprocate. Such on offer would not have reduced the ability of Nato to carry out military attacks, unless Gaddafi actually did comply.

There is nothing cherry picking about pointing out that the demand for a ceasefire is the first and most basic of the things being called for in Resolution 1973.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 02:33 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 02:37 PM

A ceasefire for the purpose of negotiation, in this case, would be useless as Gaddafi says he is not leaving and the rebels say his and his family's departure are prerequisites for negotiation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 03:11 PM

A ceasefire during negotiations would mean that so long as negotiations continued there would be a ceasefire, and no civilians were being killed. Those were the key demands in Resolution 1973.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 04:40 PM

While McGrath is correct in theory, the reality is that there's nothing to negotiate except how immediately and how far G will go into exile or (don't count on it) to prison to await trial.

G can end the bloodshed right now by making a simple ego-deflating announcement and joining one of his dictator pals in a place other than Libya, to live in luxury - until someone comes for him as they did Bin Laden or Mlosevic (your choice).

G's history of false ceasefires has already been mentioned. A real one would only give his military a breather to rebuild their communication systems while the pointless negotiating continues. (If he isn't leaving now, he won't leave when the heat is off.) It would also suggest to Gaddafi wanna-bes not that NATO is humane but that NATO is losing and indecisive. It could also boost G's popularity at home as the man that NATO couldn't break.

But perhaps this is all fantasy. Perhaps G is really a good guy who wants the best for his people, and he'd never in a million years take advantage. Perhaps this is all just a silly misunderstanding.

General ceasefires don't work until one side is actually ready to quit. That kind is called an "armistice."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 05:10 PM

I can't see that "a breather to rebuild their communication systems" would be particularly helpful to the troops of the Tripoli regime. An effective embargo on reinforcement of weapons, would still be maintained, and a freeze on outside financial assets.

If there are people in the regime who would like to dispense with Gaddafi, which seems highly likely, that could well be easier to achieve during a ceasefire than while the bombs are falling.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 10:56 AM

Here's an update on a press conference held by the latest group of high ranking officers to defect from Gadhafi's army (Al Jazeera):

More than 100 military officials and soldiers have defected from Libya's armed forces in recent days, according to a group of eight military officers, as pressure mounts on leader Muammar Gaddafi to step down.

The high-ranking Libyan army officers appeared at a press conference in Italy on Monday, where they announced that they were part of a group of as many as 120 military officials and soldiers who defected from Gaddafi's side in recent days.

The hastily called news conference was organised by the Italian government for the the eight officers - five generals, two colonels and a major.

"What is happening to our people has frightened us," said one officer, who identified himself as General Oun Ali Oun.

"There is a lot of killing, genocide ... violence against women. No wise, rational person with the minimum of dignity can do what we saw with our eyes and what he asked us to do."

Of course, what they say may all be lies or maybe they were Hollywood actors. I'd like to think that the Gadhafi regime is coming apart at the seams as NATO pressure increases on Gadhafi to depart for Venezuela.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 09:25 AM

The point is, regardless of all that, there seem to be no indications of an imminent collapse of the regime. On the contrary, plenty of comments by the British government sources about there being no deadline on military involvement, as long as it takes etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 11:45 AM

McGrath-

All the talk about "no deadline" is just part of the NATO strategy for encouraging Gadhafi and his family to depart. Yes, "regime change" is also the unwritten agenda.

I'm willing to bet that Gadhafi leaves before the end of this month. Any takers?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM

"Regime Change", is a lot more dangerous than Col Gadaffi.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 01:04 PM

yes i reckon its possible,he could still be there at the end of june. anyway he was good enough for the weSt for 40 years, and in my opinion has done less damage to libya than mugabe has done to zimbabwe.
I would say libya has improved under his regime, bet most libyans are better off than they were under king idris,
The west should not have interfered., still the west has made a lot of money in supplying arms and will undoubtedly get cheaper oil when gaddafi is eventually removed, if he is removed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 01:19 PM

It seems to me that those of you who believe that Libya is better off under the leadership of Gaddafi have very little regard for the opinion of the people of Libya.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 01:20 PM

Oh, and 600....yay!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 01:47 PM

I can't see much indication that anyone taking sides on this has much regard for the opinion of the people of Libya, which do not seem at all clear.

Libya is made up of three regions which have significant differences, the former Tripolitania, with Tripoli as its capital and the former Cyrenaica, with Benghazi as its capital, and the former Fezzan, in the southern desert. Clearly there is support for the rebellion in Benghazi and also in Misrata, but whether there is support in the rest of the country seems unclear.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 03:25 PM

Economy

The Economy of Libya is centrally planned and follows Gadaffi's Socialist ideals. It depends primarily upon revenues from the petroleum sector, which contributes practically all export earnings and over half of GDP. These oil revenues and a small population have given Libya the highest nominal per capita GDP in Africa.[29] Since 2000, Libya has recorded favourable growth rates with an estimated 10.6% growth of GDP in 2010.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 07:02 PM

"he was good enough for the weSt for 40 years"

Where on earth did this fiction come from? Libya was regarded as a pariah state for most of those forty years?

Diference between the kleptocracy of Gaddafi and Mugabe and the damage done to each country? Gaddafi had oil Mugabe did not, so the latter in his plundering of his nations riches killed off the goose that laid the golden eggs in Zimbabwe and turned the country into the nightmare it now is. Gaddafi just dumbed the populace down and isolated them from the rest of the world, while he plundered the oil revenues and enforced his "Investment Fund" his son was on, oh how much was his yearly allowance again? £170,000,000 - nice pay if you can get it - what was the average yearly wage of any libyan worker?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:04 AM

Every country has its dissidents Teribus.....do you really subscribe to the idea of powerful countries enforcing regime change, just because it is in their interests to do so?

The UN charter specifically forbids forced regime change.....for very good reasons.

Where did you get your hands on Said Gadaffi's payslip?
and how do you contrast the salaries and bonuses of the financial bosses with the amount that the unemployed or those on the minimum wage are expected to live on?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 09:31 AM

yes very true, why are the west not invading ireland, after all the government reduced the dole by 8 euros a week, but allowed the minister, who wasted 53 million on useless electronic voting machines, martin cullen to get a fat pension.
Martin Cullen will receive a severance payment of nearly €80,000 (per today's Irish Independent):

PLUS a salary of nearly €200,000 for the remainder of 2010, and nearly 100K for 2011;

PLUS a combined TD and Minister pension of €106,000 FOR LIFE! (per Vincent Brown last night)

MC has only been a TD since 1987.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 11:32 AM

"....do you really subscribe to the idea of powerful countries enforcing regime change."

Depends upon the circumstances:

As per Iraq in 2003 under Saddam Hussein yes

Libya is a differnent kettle of fish - it's the people there who wish to implement regime change. The UN; NATO; Arab League & GCC are doing in Libya today what should have been done to help the Iraqi Shia Arabs in Southern Iraq in 1991, in the aftermath of Desert Storm.

Salaries and bonuses of "the financial bosses" and CEO's of multi-Nationals are different entirely to the pocket money doled out to Gaddafi's sons. The Salaries and bonuses of the formed are "performance" related the £170,000,000 per year is just his cut of the proceeds of a massive and ongoing kleptocracy that has been in operation for the best part of forty years. Par for the course in the Arab world though, there was that epitome of good leadership Yasser Arafat who syphoned off billions of what was supposed to be aid for his destitute and impoverished Palestinian people. the Tunisian ex-President who loaded up a transport aircraft with gold bullion before he legged it for the border. Hosni Mubarak of Egypt has stashed away millions and is now under investigation for it.

I still think that the comparative ratios would still end up as astronomical for the Gaddafi:Libyan Worker than for Bank Boss/CEO:Jobless/Min Wage in the UK.

"...but allowed the minister,..."

Ah the magic words - you are talking about a politician. Now where on earth did you ever get the idea that they do anything to improve the lot anybody before ensuring first that they themselves are well provided for - it's a club and the star prize is when you get elected or better still "appointed" to the big club in Brussels.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 12:39 PM

Libya is a differnent kettle of fish - it's the people there who wish to implement regime change.
how do you know this have you been there, or are you forming this view from western propoganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 12:41 PM

Par for the course in the Arab world though, there was that epitome of good leadership Yasser Arafat who syphoned off billions of what was supposed to be aid for his destitute and impoverished Palestinian people. the Tunisian ex-President who loaded up a transport aircraft with gold bullion before he legged it for the border. Hosni Mubarak of Egypt has stashed away millions and is now under investigation for it.
yes, so why didnt the west invade these countries, the inconsistency is so obvious

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:26 PM

Fortunately Teribus, you are not in a position yet to sanction regime change.....but what about the UN resolutions, International Law etc, the backbone of our "liberal democracy".....are they too, to depend on circumstance?

The disparity between £17 billion?? to £50 and £6 million to £50, makes little difference to the man or woman on £50...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:44 PM

I just noticed the bit from T about Banking bosses £million salaries and bonuses being "performance related".......who says that its only Americans who dont understand irony?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 05:31 PM

GSS " it's the people there who wish to implement regime change.
how do you know this have you been there"

Care to tell me what is was that the Libyan civilians who were protesting about when they were gunned down by Gaddafi's troops and mercenaries in February this year? "Longer beds and more time in them" perhaps?? Or do you doubt that they were gunned down at all?? Unfortunately too many corpses and too many eye-witness statements from both sides to refute what happened.

"so why didnt the west invade these countries, the inconsistency is so obvious"

Tunisia - The Tunisian Army ensured that the threat to the civilian population was never realised, so no request from the Arab League was necessary.

Egypt - Same thing as in Tunisia, no request from the Arab League to act.

Palestine - Yasser Arafat was just a crook just like his Uncle before him who preyed of the Arabs of Palestine. Basically the non-Palestinian Arabs in the states surrounding Palestine could not give two hoots for Palestine or its people.

Syria - No request for international intervention from the Arab League or the GCC. Probably due to Syria's alliance with Iran - nobody knows where that can of worms would go if anybody intervened. The US has requested UN for sanctions against the Ba'athist regime in Syria.

Yemen - No request for international intervention from the Arab League or GCC because the GCC is already involved in resolving the situation.

Bahrain - No request for international intervention as Saudi Arabia and the GCC were called in by the rulers of Bahrain. "Protests" in Bahrain from "guest workers" mask a destabilisation campaign instigated by Iran.

Libya - The ruler of Libya declared war on his own people, and when his own troops refused to carry out his orders, he engaged the services of mercenary troops to do his bidding. Libya's neighbours were both in a state of turmoil so the Arab League and the GCC took the matter to the UN Security Council and asked them to act.

See any differences? I most certainly can.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 05:50 PM

Well you've made your case T ....but made hard work of it.

Isn't the most obvious difference, that Libya has oil?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 06:05 PM

Nobody would dispute that there are a lot of Libyans who want rid of Gaddafi. What is open to question is whether there is any evidence that most Libyans feel that way.

It may be true that they do, but it is wrong to take it for granted that it true and that the rebels represent the majority.

Only in the circumstances of a ceasefire could it be possible to try to find ways of finding out the truth about that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 07:06 PM

Libya/oil. BP was just setting up ops (I know the guy that was in charge of ops there.) Quacky was driving a hard bargain. He ain't negotiating with the Brits anymore is he? And, the rest of the Arab nations?... well, the Brits, Germans, French, Dutch, Yanks, Russians... they don't like getting fucked over eh? As for them not having any oil??? Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 07:15 PM

"What is open to question is whether there is any evidence that most Libyans feel that way."

If you've been following the events from a news source that has reporters in the field it is pretty clear that a large majority of Libyans want to see an end to the regime of Gaddafi and his family. Do you not think that if Gaddafi had the support that he claims to have he would not be allowing reporters the freedom to report to the world from among them instead of orchestrating support rallies and broadcasting them on state controlled tv?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 11:26 PM

"whether most LIbyans feel that way."

The reason this seems to be a question is the same reason it would have been a question in the 3rd Reich.

Negotiation with a vicious tyrant who considers himself to embody the state-- and who has in fact centralized all power in himself--- has already been tried before.    Not a happy outcome. Perhaps you recall this.    Or perhaps you don't. In which case you need to do more reading.

Unsurprisingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 12:09 AM

"Isn't the most obvious difference, that Libya has oil?"

Which Libya sold to the countries of Western Europe, his main customers were Italy, Germany & France. Are you saying that NATO schemed away to attack Libya to "steal" Libyan oil in the same way as people claimed that Iraq was all about the USA "stealing" Iraq's oil? We all know that the latter most certainly did not happen, and at the end of all this I would predict that Italy, Germany & France will still buy their oil and gas from Libya and pay market price for it (Same as the US does for what token amounts of oil it buys from Iraq).

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 03:49 AM

For gods sake Teribus, who said anything about "stealing oil"?
Read gnu's post.
Access to oil rights is the reason we have been involved in this pantomime, whilst all around protesters are shot...... and ignored by the West.
Today, the West again told Assad what a naughty boy he was and how he must stop being horrid to his people!

Sanctions?.....no
Military action.....of course not!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 04:29 AM

No sanctions only because Russia would use its veto.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 07:11 AM

The issue here, as even our charmingly naive friends who oppose Western involvement in Libya should know is how much power Gadhafi will continue to exercise over his own people.

Please name one vicious tyrant, preferably one who has been in power for about 40 years, considers himself to embody the state, and has had the delightful habit of sending assassination squads all over the world to deal with dissenters, who has been willing to give up a portion of his power over his own people.

Furthermore, the recent experiences of Tunesia and Egypt are object lessons to Gadhafi of what happens to a ruler when he is in fact willing to cede some of his power to independent voices.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 08:20 AM

"should know, is"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 08:44 AM

Pinochet was only in power for 17 years before he stepped down in 1990, with another eight years as Commander-in-Chief, but otherwise he fits the description Ron gives quite well.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 05:23 PM

Please name one vicious tyrant, preferably one who has been in power for about 40 years, considers himself to embody the state, and has had the delightful habit of sending assassination squads all over the world to deal with dissenters, who has been willing to give up a portion of his power over his own people.
   most of the usa presidents since the second world war, through the CIA.
AND the macCarthy era, ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY,deprived of the abilty to work[robeson seeger etc] the undermining of Cuba, the undemocratic overthrow of Allende, the support of Pinochet., the involvement in Vietnam, all this in the name of freedom, but at the same time boosting their economy, through armament sales
its about time America stopped acting as a world police force, and stopped this rubbish about the land of the free and freedom and democracy

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 05:47 PM

ALL wars are fought for freedom (or to oppose tyrany. Else, how would one attract soldiers?

"Attention, ladies and gentlemen, we need some soldiers to go fight and possibly die for their country. It is in the name of freedom and democracy!"


or


"Attention, ladies and gentlemen, we need some soldiers to go fight and possibly die for their country. It is in the name of an oil company or multinational!"

Simple sales technique. WHICH ad would YOU run?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 06:33 PM

I think "justice" is a big one, 999.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 11:42 PM

"most of the USA presidents"

Another delightful poster with a serious reading problem--very common on the Left, it appears.

One person for 40 years--and that would be which president?

Assassination squads all over the world to kill dissidents from his own country.    Details please.


All the power centralized in himself.    As I recall there are such things in the US as Congress and the judiciary. Please tell us how much power--separate from the Brother Leader---any legislative or judicial body has in Libya.

Perhaps the poster should return to folk music.   Perhaps he has some inkling of that.

His post is however wonderful comic relief--and yet another sterling example of why folkies have such a enviable reputation in the wider world for brilliant strategic thinking.

Please, give us more.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 11:53 PM

If it's comic relief you're after, try this:

Grrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 11:57 PM

Pinochet "embodied the state".    Evidence please.

And Gaddafi's obvious desire for "victory or martyrdom"   tells us all we need to know about his flexibility--except to touchingly naive posters who desperately want to believe he is just another reasonable person unjustifiably attacked by--who else--the evil West.

Certainly is fascinating that the people opposing Western involvement in Libya are such world-class masters of mewling piteously that the West always supports tyrants.   Yet when the West attacks a tyrant, suddenly that's not what said people wanted after all.

The suspicion arises that these posters don't even know what they themselves want--except to be card-carrying members of the "ain't it awful" school.

Whatever it is, "ain't it awful".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 12:13 AM

Constitution instituted in Chile in 1980 prescribed an 8-year term--which Pinochet held to.

Please tell us about the Libyan constitution and what term of power has been allotted by it to the Brother Leader.   What is the Brother Leader's official term of office?   And please enlighten us as to your secret sources which indicate that at the end of that term of office, he will be willing to step down--for somebody other than a member of his own family.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 11:20 AM

pinochet seized power with american help, and overthrew a democraticaly elected person Allende.
that is fact RON,

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 02:27 PM

Sorry, but Pinochet didn't "seize power with American help" any more than "the CIA murdered Diem."

The US was glad that Allende was gone and did nothing to remove Pinochet once he was in control, but the US did not put him there. Ambitious tyrants like Pinochet are capable of launching their own successful coups - as did Col. Gaddafi. As far as the US was concerned, once he was in power, Pinochet was the lesser evil compared to the possibility of a powerful Cuban-Soviet influence on Chile at just the time the US had been forced from Vietnam. The former KGB archivist Vasili Mitrokhin has written that Allende was in fact on the KGB payroll. See C. M. Andrew & V. Mitrokhin, "The World was Going Our Way" (N.Y.: Simon & Schuster, 2005), p. 80ff.

International politics makes strange bedfellows. But the Cold War's over, and it's time to give up the propaganda myths.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM

lighter, cods wallop.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 07:09 PM

"Good Soldier Schweik" aka Dick Miles - at least "lighter" provides references to check, you don't. If there is anybody coming out with "cods-wallop" it's you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 10:20 PM

I can't tell you how surprised I am that though I pointed out that Pinochet had voluntarily stepped down when he lost an election, none of our stalwart opponents of Western involvement in Libya has told us about Gaddafi's term of office, and when elections might be scheduled that would result in his leaving power.

Gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that Gaddafi will never have to stand for election.   Since that's the way the regime is set up.

And there is a reason Pinochet was willing to step down:    he cared--a lot--what the West (and the Pope) thought.

Now please tell us whose opinion-- outside his own--the Brother Leader cares for.

Clue: it's not the West.   Nor the Pope.



And I'm still waiting for the giant intellect which goes under the rubric of "Good Soldier"   to tell us:   

1)    which US president ruled for 40 years

2)   which American dissenters were assassinated by the CIA

3) how much power the legislature and judiciary have in Libya to be independent of the Brother Leader.


Seems like it may be a long wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 10:28 PM

5 Oct 1988:   Referendum lost by Pinochet. (Wiki)

I will settle down to wait for answers to my questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 11 - 03:42 AM

Ron...you put too much faith in "electoral democracy".....Just take a look at the leaders it has given us in the last few decades.

Either creatures of the system, or psycopathic dangerous egomaniacs.
Usually both!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Jun 11 - 08:19 AM

"creatures of the system",    "psychopathic"---sure is a good thing we are so careful to steer away from boilerplate purple prose.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 11 - 03:00 PM

Now let me see - "psycopathic dangerous egomaniac."

Who does that put in mind of, only he never stood for election and hung around for 40 odd years.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 02:31 AM

Hi there Akenaton, I've just remembered who that "psycopathic dangerous egomaniac." was. The self-styled King of Africa" Muammar Gaddafi.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 02:54 AM

Yes T.....but we are about to replace him by something so much better aren't we?

Just like Iraq.

Which has a "parliament" divided on racial,tribal and religious lines, a non existant infrastructure and hudreded of thousands of dead Iraqis,(soon to be Libyans, when the civil war kicks in).

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 07:01 AM

"but we are about to replace him by something so much better aren't we?"

WE?? "WE" are not going to replace him with anything, that will entirely up to the people of Libya to do, that is their affair and has nothing whatsoever to do with us.

IRAQ

"Which has a "parliament" divided on racial,tribal and religious lines, a non existant infrastructure and hudreded of thousands of dead Iraqis,(soon to be Libyans, when the civil war kicks in)."

So the Iraqi Parliament is divided on racial, tribal and religious lines - WOW what a surprise, how amazing, but now you come to mention it, I can think of loads of Parliaments in countries all over the world that are - GUESS WHAT - divided on racial, tribal and religious lines.

Non-existent infrastructure?? You mean fewer Presidential Palaces?
Income per capita before Saddam took over $12,000+ (1978)
Income per capita when Saddam fell $507 (2003)
Income per capita today $3,800

Electricity Generation?
2002 - 27.3 bnkWh
2004 - 32.6 bnkWh
2011 - 46.4 bnKwh

Hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi's? Somewhere between 110,000 to 150,000 - Most killed by Iraqi insurgents, sectarian militia's, foreign Jihadist, and criminal elements.

Iraq a Parliamentary Democracy - rather unique in that respect in the "Arab World".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 09:09 AM

Ake--

There are no sure bets in diplomacy.   As you should know.

The only sure thing is that Gaddafi is a bloodthirsty tyrant who calls his opponents "traitors" and "rats", has sent assassination squads all over the world to kill dissidents--and has already slaughtered quite a few.    This is just what Hitler did--in fact he mainly restricted himself to the sphere he controlled.

The Benghazi government does not do it.   Quite a few Western diplomats have been impressed with the expressed attitudes of the Benghazi government--which as I have noted, has a lot of intellectuals who cannot stand the straitjacket of the Gaddafi regime.

It's time for all thinking beings to recognize these facts.

And stop making excuses for Gaddafi or implying that any other government would do the same as he does.    The facts in Libya are on the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 07:24 AM

Now that the mask has dropped and NATO are openly targetting regime members and their children(15 killed today), it can be clearly seen that this is the dangerous game of regime change by force.....nothing to do with protecting civilians

This is a civil war, whereas in Syria over 2000 unarmed protesters have been killed and we do nothing.

What fools and hypocrites we are!....Why do we allow our leaders to shame us so?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 07:47 AM

Who will protect Col Gadaffi's civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 09:46 AM

Ron asked which US president ru1ed for 40 years. I'd say J Edgar Hoover, except that he called the shots for 50 (yes, fifty) years - presiding over corruption on a scale that many a third-world country would envy.

I see Teribus is as snide as ever, unmasking a fellow poster from the safe haven of his own pseudonym. I wonder if Teribus and his ilk (Bobad etc) could say exactly what policy considerations lead them to favour the eastern factions over the western factions in Libya's civil war? (They don't need to explain why it is ok to attack Libya but not Syria, because it's obvious: Syria has an army.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 10:19 AM

PeterK-

So, would you possibly be making a "snide" comment?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 10:37 AM

pinochet seized power with american help, and overthrew a democraticaly elected person Allende. that is fact RON ~ dick miles

lighter, cods wallop. ~ dick miles

In addition to calling people names, Dick Miles is full of crap.

Allende was installed by the parliement which he and Soviet money helped pack with supporters. He got only 36% of the vote in the election and only about 20% of the public supported him. He was a Soviet stooge.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 10:33 PM

"NATO opening targeting...children'

Please let us know, Ake, when you wipe the foam from your mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM

Ron.....BBC today, Prime Minister Cameron......"we(the UK) are at war in Afghanistan and Libya"

Nato said yesterday that they targetted the house of one of Col Gadaffi's closest advisers killing the mans whole family....BBC reporters said that of the four children only one head was recognisible...one hardened reporter "threw up" on seeing the remains of the children.

This is the lowest form of terrorism, on a par with anything perpetrated by Al Qaeda, only there was no risk involved to our assasins. No loss of life involved, only mindless brutal slaughter.

In Iraq and Afghanistan we are starting to withdraw our troops, have we achieved anything? Does anyone believe that the Taliban will not come stealing back, or that Muslim fundamentalism will rule again?...only much stronger.

If you Ron, had a son sent home in a body bag, would you not consider that he died for nothing?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 09:10 PM

We are only talking about Libya.   If you can't tell the difference between Gaddafi and the Benghazi government, then, for the n'th time, please take off your blinders.

And if you really think NATO targets children on purpose, there's no point to talking to you---you are beyond reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 12:43 AM

There's no point in any of you talking to one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: goatfell
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 11:57 AM

good old America at it agin thank you

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 12:36 PM

If you can't tell the difference between Gaddafi and the Benghazi government, then, for the n'th time, please take off your blinders.

For my benefit, if not Ake's, Ron, perhaps you could just spell out what you see as the main strengths of the "Benghazi government" and say how they stack up against Gadaffi's achievements, such as, say, the visionary GMR (man-made river), a legacy of which any regime would be proud.

(Charley Noble, you saw what I wrote. If you think it was snide, just say so. For my part I think it's reasonable that we leave it to forum members to decide for themselves when/whether they want to come out from behind their pseudonyms.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 10:07 PM

"Gaddafi's achievements".    Don't forget the long-running campaign to assassinate Libyan dissidents--all over the world. Check out what he--and his son--said when the son was arrested by Swiss police.    Etc, etc.--ad nauseam.

If you can bestir yourself to do an iota of research.

Just why do you have such fond feelings for a bloodthirsty tyrant?
Feel free to lie down on the couch and tell us all about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest Observer
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 02:56 AM

""Good Soldier Schweik" aka Dick Miles" - Teribus

"I see Teribus is as snide as ever, unmasking a fellow poster from the safe haven of his own pseudonym." - Peter K Fionn

Observation:
Hardly unmasking, if you look at the Good Soldier's past posts, the fact that "Good Soldier Schweik" and "Dick Miles" are one and the same is a matter of record.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 04:25 PM

OK, fair enough Guest Observer. Apologies to Teribus: I inferred too much.

Ron, it's pretty obvious that Gadaffi has some faults, like most state leaders. I was hoping you were going to tell us what's so good about the "Benghazi government".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM

"it's pretty obvious that Gadaffi has some faults......."

That's about the biggest understatement I've ever heard. If you have been following the events in Libya and hearing some of the eyewitness accounts about what he's been doing for the past 40 odd years I don't think you would hear too many describe it as "some faults". Here's an account from one victim of his "faults": http://rafaelmartel.com/2011/03/18/young-mans-account-of-gaddafis-cruelty/

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 09:20 PM

Re: Benghazi government:    it's obvious you haven't even read this thread.    I pointed out earlier that one of the best aspects of the society they are now creating in east Libya is how regular people are pitching in;    Gaddafi's schools are closed;   there are now volunteer teachers.   Volunteer police.   Even voiunteer garbage collectors.

People in general are so happy to be out from under the heavy censorship of the regime of an unstable vicious tyrant--who feels threatened by the idea that any good can come from other people than him.

Too bad clueless Westerners--including armchair socialists who for some reason think they know better than the large percentage of Libyans who have deserted Gaddafi--- are still supporting that dictator.

And by doing so, said clueless Westerners are in large part responsible for the continuing bloodletting---he will never step down until he has no support from anyone--if then.

It's very likely that he will have to go the way of Hitler--whom he resembles in more than one way--which I have also detailed earlier if posters would lift a finger enough to actually read the thread.   But that appears to be beyond the abilities of some posters--mostly those left of center, for some reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 09:49 PM

Perhaps the brilliant minds who praise Gaddafi would find time in their busy schedule of building castles in the air to actually read what their idol has recently said:

AP: 24 June 2011 Gaddafi speech of 23 June:   "What you (NATO) are doing will rebound against you and against the world with destruction, desolation, and terrorism."

Yup, sounds like a reasonable guy, all right.    Who could object to that?

And the clueless Western supporters of Gaddafi, once he is confirmed as legitimate ruler of Libya, will then be pushing to release the frozen funds (appr.$ 60 billion or so). After all, if he is legitimately the ruler there is no legal ground to keep the funds frozen.   So he can carry out the general idea pictured above.

It would be nice if the Western pro-Gaddafi folks would actually think before posting.

Hope I'm not too subtle.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 04:11 PM

Subtle????????? LOL! Oh, come now...subtlety is not your forte, Ron.

But I have a little ditty I've composed for the political threads. Not just this political thread, mind you. ALL of them. And it goes like this...

(strike up the vaudeville band, complete with kazoos and egg shakers)

"Sing a song of sixpence, a pocket full of shit,
Four and twenty Mudcat posters having such a fit!
When their fit is over, the world will still go on,
And the bitching on this thread have been forgot by everyone!"
(Cha! Cha! Cha!)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 07:59 PM


AP: 24 June 2011 Gaddafi speech of 23 June:   "What you (NATO) are doing will rebound against you and against the world with destruction, desolation, and terrorism."

That would be a thoughtful prophecy, Ron, except that it's stating the obvious. I don't know what your Arab connections are, but mine are fairly direct. What I hear constantly is that Gadaffi's regime has been nothing like as harsh as those of Mubarak and Assad (notwithstanding the hopes originally invested in Assad); neither has there been repression and inequality comparable with that in Saudi (whose Royals were so ready to carry out a violent crackdown for their pals in Bahrain).

The demonisation of Gadaffi is not without foundation, but is blatently disproportionate, probably driven by guilt that other regimes murder and torture with impunity, sometimes on our behalf. The Saddam scenario revisited.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 08:36 PM

Hmmmm... maybe Quakkers has the WMDs from Iraq and wanted a better deal from BP and when he couldn't get one by strong arm negotiating they decided to bomb his ass and call his bluff?

Sorry. Don't mean to bring the Brits into bad light here. But if the shoe shits... ya gotta wipe, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:09 PM

"Allende was installed by the parliement which he and Soviet money helped pack with supporters. He got only 36% of the vote in the election and only about 20% of the public supported him. He was a Soviet stooge."
   even if this was true this would not be reason for a military overthrow, IN 1974 The English government was elected with 37.2percent, would it have been justifiable for a military coup to overthrow this government,no of course it would not,it is not me that is talking crap.
gaddafi is still there, charley noble has lost his bet, and the west is embroiled in a war that will last some while yet

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:15 PM

the october UK 1974 elected with a majority OF THE VOTE OF 39 PER CENT,ron davies, should they have been overthrown by a miltary junta?you are the biggest crap talker of the lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: pdq
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:57 PM

Moamar Khaddafi, Fidel Castro, Robert Mugabe and Salvadore Allende all came to power with a copy of Karl Marx in one hand, Soviet arms in he other hand and their pockets full of Soviet money.

Quote from a Communist publication: "the Libyan revolution, through which the Libyan people took control over their country from UK and US imperialism in 1969."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 08:25 PM

What communist publication, pdq? It's wishful thinking in any case. Mugabe's support (in his legitimate war against white-supremacy government) came from Tito and China rather than USSR - which doesn't alter the fact that he, like Allende, came into office through free and fair elections. Of course it's in the psyche of many Americans that they have to react hysterically to anything that looks like commie governance, however effective and democratic it might be.

It's part of communism's dilemma that its practitioners sometimes turn into monsters, a la Stalin, Mugabe etc. But that's a fault of the human condition, not of communism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: pdq
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 08:39 PM

If you say that Tito and Mao helped Mugabe more the Russia, fine.

I could have continued the list by mentioning people like Pol Pot. A reay cutie there.

Lefties seem to disown their progeny but only long after the damage has been done.

Most people are not aware the "Pappa Doc" Duvalier, Anastasio Samosa and Cuba's Bautista all came to power with the support of Communism. FDR jumped at the chance to recognize them as legitimate leaders since he had a Soclialist streak too. He even gave recognizing that trio of thugs a special name: Good Neighbor Policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 08:56 AM

I hope that those posters who are admirers of him are not too disappointed:

Gadhafi arrest warrant issued by war crimes court

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 06:03 PM

admirers?
no, I am questioning the RIGHT of the west to interfere in middle east affairs, to interfere in the overthrow of Allende, to interfere in Iraq,to interfere in Vietnam.
The imperialist ambitions of the west resulted in Africa being carved up regardless of tribal boundaries, and presenting us with the problems we have today, mainly through the wets pursuits of raw materials, its the same old song , but this time the raw material is oil, f####ing hypocritical phoneys

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 08:23 PM

I shouldn't think Gadaffi will be too distressed bobad. Libya recognises the ICC only for what it is: a tool with which the US and its hangers on persecute Africans they don't like. (Libya's in good company: the US also puts itself beyond ICC jurisdiction.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 10:29 PM

meanwhile, over in Syria

Assad's thugs continue

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 09:50 PM

Gaddafi "not as harsh" as Mubarak, etc.    Anything you say.    I wonder why so many Libyans seem to disagree--and want no more part of his regime. I'm sure you know better than they do--virtually everybody in Benghazi and most of the east of the country is well known to be deluded, thinking that kindly old Muammar means them any harm.

Look, whatever you're smoking, you'd best cut down.

And if it is "obvious" that Muammar plans desolation, terrorism, and destruction for the West, it's interesting that does not bother you.   Most rational people might well say we have enough to be concerned about in foreign policy without OK'ing another terrorist power--this one nuclear.

Just how guilty do you feel about the West's sins of colonialism?    You might want to doff your hairshirt at some point-- and start thinking.

It would seem to any rational being that if an angry megalomaniac promises you desolation and terrorism, you really should believe him. And it might not be a good idea to release $60 billion to him.    In fact we should make sure he never gets access to it.   And that means removing him from power permanently.

But how convenient it is that we now have a thread which fits perfectly those who oppose the campaign against Gaddafi and the West's participation in it:   

AWOL: Common Sense

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 05:51 PM

Gaddafi going daffy:

"These people [the Libyans] are able to one day take this battle [...] to Europe, to target your homes, offices, families, which would become legitimate military targets, like you have targeted our homes," he said.

"If we decide to, we are able to move to Europe like locusts, like bees. We advise you to retreat before you are dealt a disaster," he added."

Source BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 10:08 PM

Good Soldier Schweik-

Fortunately you were the only one I can find here who was willing to take me up on my bet that Gadhaffi would be out of power by the end of June.

I'll gladly buy you a round at the pub of your choice the next time I'm in your neighborhood. Or you could collect your bet by coming to Maine and I'd buy you a round at the Old Goat here in Richmond.

There does seem to be gradual and continual progress on the part of the Rebels, with the aid of the UN, in terms of gaining territory.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 01:15 PM

Bobad, if you are going to post quotes, please post them complete, not with the parts which dont suit you removed.

Col Gadaffi made it clear that any action against the NATO countries would be in retaliation against their bombing of Libyan cities and the killing of Libyan citizens......like his son, and grandchildren.

No wonder the guy is angry, he has been set up and his family members murdered in the interests of the UK French and US economies.

Thousands demonstrated yesterday in Tripoli in support of Gadaffi, are they to be left to the "mercy" of the insurgents?
Many Gadaffi supporters in the Benghazi area have been butchered, most have wisely opted to keep quiet.


Nato in perpetrating terrorism by a bombing campaign designed to make Col Gadaffi's supporters desert him......

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 01:53 PM

CP

MALABO, Equatorial Guinea - The African Union has called on its member states disregard the arrest warrant issued by the International Criminal Court against Col. Moammar Gadhafi, a move that could weaken the ability of the world court to hold the Libyan leader accountable for crimes committed against his people.

The decision passed late Friday states that the warrant against Gadhafi "seriously complicates" efforts by the African Union to find a political solution to the crisis in Libya.

AU chairman Jean Ping told reporters that the ICC is "discriminatory" and only goes after crimes committed in Africa while ignoring those committed by Western powers including in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

"With this in mind, we recommend that the member states do not co-operate with the execution of this arrest warrant," said the motion which was shown to The Associated Press and whose passage was confirmed by Daniel Adugna, a spokesman in the AU commissioner's office.

If the AU's 53 member states abide by the decision, it opens the possibility that Gadhafi could avoid prosecution by seeking refuge on the soil of neighbouring nations. That has so far been the case for the former dictator of Chad, Hissene Habre, who was given asylum in Senegal over 20 years ago, and who is yet to face trial for the alleged torture of hundreds of his opponents even though Senegal agreed in 2006 to create an ad hoc court to try Habre.

Gadhafi's chief of staff who was present at this week's African Union summit applauded the AU's decision, holding a copy of it in his hand on Friday evening as the heads of state emerged for their declaration after a day of closed-door deliberations regarding Libya's future. Diplomats said that the African body is divided between those that believe Gadhafi needs to step down immediately and those that want to find a dignified exit for a longtime peer.

"This is a Libyan affair and it needs to stay a Libyan affair," said Gadhafi's chief of staff Bashir Saleh. "How can you ask someone to leave his own house?"

Also on Friday, the AU passed a decision saying Senegal must assume its responsibilities and try Habre — or else allow him to be extradited to Belgium, which has offered to try the Chadian leader.

"It is incumbent on Senegal in accordance with its international obligations to take steps to bring Hissene Habre to trial, or extradite him," the statement said.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 02:34 PM

I'll gladly buy you a round at the pub of your choice the next time I'm in your neighborhood. Or you could collect your bet by coming to Maine and I'd buy you a round at the Old Goat here in Richmond.
jayse, i hope the old goat hasnt been made into a bodhran.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM

Interesting post ake. I must say I haven't read a lot of this thread but your last post may be of some merit.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 04:56 PM

"Any action would be in retaliation..."    So we should sit back and wait for such action. Anything you say.

Alea jacta est, as I said earlier.

And if NATO stops bombing, leaving him in power, what about the $60 billion?    What secret assurance do you have, Ake, that Gaddafi will not use that money--and more coming in every day--to get a nuclear bomb?    And to sponsor terrorism--again--all over the world.   As, you note, he has promised to do.

It's time--past time-- for opponents of the NATO actions against Gaddafi to start using their heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 07:03 PM

Regarding the threatned retaliatory action against the NATO countries who are bombing Libya, Col Gadaffi is notable for screeds of overblown rhetoric, like the rhetoric about searching out the "criminal insurgents" which was so eagerly seized by the West as an excuse to start massacring Col Gadaffi's soldiers and his family from the safety of 20000 ft!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 08:29 PM

A first hand account of how the good Col. Gaddafi treats his fellow citizens: http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/06/2011629231512936499.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 09:12 PM

Ron, maybe you find some words confusing? "Retaliation" is reaction to attack. Gadaffi was threatening what his response might be if he continued to be attacked by Nato. If he meant what he was saying (and you seem to be taking him very seriously indeed) then "sitting back" could not, by definition, lead to "such action" (ie retaliation) since there would be nothing to retaliate against. Can you understand now?

But I think even you, Ron, know that Gadaffi was just spluttering harmless bluster. Remembering that he himself came to power through an army coup, he has ensured that Libya under his regime never had an effective military, which is one of the main reasons why he is such an attractive target for Cameron & Co.

Meanwhile the slaughter continues unabated in Syria, where Assad's regime is well on course to emulate that of his grotesquely brutal father. There is far greater repression in Syria than there has ever been in Gadaffi's Libya, but beyond a few patronising lectures from Hillary Clinton, you will not see the west lifting a finger on that front, for obvious reasons.

Of course, the west is entitled to choose whom to wage war against. But don't pretend morality has anything to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 10:45 PM

Morality never had anything to do with it. They've decided to get rid of Mr Gaddafi for some kind of pragmatic reasons that they are not uttering a peep about in public, and they are doing nothing about the situation in Syria for equally pragmatic reasons.

It's utterly laughable to imagine that Nato is conducting this lengthy campaign against Gaddafi's Libya to protect some elements in the Libyan public. Nato acts to protect the strategic interests of its more powerful members, not to protect Third World citizens from being slaughtered.

But that's not what they'll tell you, because they want the support of their own public, and the only way they can get it is by supposedly protecting either their own public from a dire foreign threat...or by supposedly coming to the aid of some victimized people in some other country.

It's the standard propaganda routine, used many times in the past. You'll see it again and again and again. It's not the real reason for Nato's military actions.

Obama's war is also technically illegal now under the American Constitution, and has been challenged on that basis by both Democrats and Republicans in Congress...among them Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 07:50 AM

Yes...I agree with Peter and LH,I would also add that "Regime Change" by force, perpetrated or assisted by a group of powerful nations in their own interests, is many times more dangerous than the "dictatorship" of small tribal nations by grandiose individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 11:15 AM

"harmless bluster"---singularly stupid--and dangerous--assumption.   Especially with an angry dictator.

Especially with $60 billion plus to draw on for the purpose.

I note with interest that none of the whiners in favor of Muammar have told us how to prevent his access to this money.

As I recently noted: perfect description of the opponents of Western military action in Libya:    AWOL:    Common Sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 05:02 PM

I'm not getting into this discussion.

But it was noted early on with the development of nuclear weapons that should one of these devices fall into the hands of a dictator or international criminal—in this case, Gaddafi or bin Laden, for examples—there is little doubt that they would use it.

It's interesting to note that many people are very surprised when the barking dog actually bites.

Why is that, I wonder. . . ?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 05:24 PM

"BENGHAZI, Libya (Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi is welcome to live out his retirement inside Libya as long as he gives up all power, Libya's rebel chief told Reuters on Sunday in the clearest concession the rebels have so far offered."

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/07/03/rebels-if-gaddafi-quits-we-will-let-him-stay-in-libya/

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 08:31 PM

It is dangerous to make a deal with the devil, and Gadhafi comes close to that.

I would hope the Rebels don't concede that point.

Gadhafi and his family need to run to Venezuela.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 08:36 PM

Charley, the offer is conditional:

"As a peaceful solution, we offered that he can resign and order his soldiers to withdraw from their barracks and positions, and then he can decide either to stay in Libya or abroad," rebel leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil said in an interview.

"If he desires to stay in Libya, we will determine the place and it will be under international supervision. And there will be international supervision of all his movements," said Jalil, who heads the rebels' National Transitional Council."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:22 AM

Oh!....and what about the 100,000 Libyans who rallied in his support two days ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 07:20 AM

"Oh!....and what about the 100,000 Libyans who rallied in his support two days ago?"

They will just have to go along with the majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:13 PM

Precisely, Ake. I don't see any of the warmongers in this thread explaining what makes the antis better than the pros in Libya's civil war. Surely the truth is that we know very little about the antis except that they do not constitute a cohesive whole and that members of the (so far moderate) Muslim Brotherhood are a leading element.

Neither do I see why Charley Noble and Co get themselves hysterical about Gadaffi. He may be a bit of a tyrant and his style is a bit unorthodox, but that doesn't make him exceptional in a region which, like China for instance, is not ready for western-style democracy. (Watch Israel panic if and when democracy does sweep across the Middle East.)

At any rate, Gadaffi is no Hafez al-Assad, who used extreme brutality to impose stability on what had been a volatile territory. He is not even a Saddam (who used rather less harsh tactics in achieving stability in Iraq).

But then I suppose Charley and Co are still fighting the Vietnam War, to sae us all from the domino effect, ha-ha.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:41 AM

Damn! My brillant post last evening got torpedoed. More evidence of an international conspiracy, and it's too early in the morning to recreate it. You'll just have to use your imagination but it was totally crushing!!!

I already owe The Good Soldier a round at the pub of his choice for my overly optimistic prediction that this "crisis" would be resolved by the end of June.

Well, by the end of July, I now predict that the Rebels in the mountains, those in and around Misrata, and those in the East will have advanced close enough to Tripoli to inspire their supporters there to take on Gahdafi's remaining soldiers (those who haven't already defected). Any takers?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:13 AM

"hysterical"    "warmongers".    You will note that those accused of this strongly opposed the Iraq war.    Every situation is different.    Note that we can expect the opponents of Western military involvement in Libya to understand this--or much of anything else.

I note that they still have no clue how we are supposed to keep Gaddafi from the $60 billion plus except by removing him from power.

And as I said, trusting that his threats are just bluster is the stupidest--and most dangerous--attitude one could take.

But after all, not surprising from a group whose mantra is "AWOL:   Common Sense."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:50 AM

"I don't see any of the warmongers in this thread explaining what makes the antis better than the pros in Libya's civil war. Surely the truth is that we know very little about the antis except that they do not constitute a cohesive whole and that members of the (so far moderate) Muslim Brotherhood are a leading element." - Peter K (Fionn)

1: The antis have not been running the country as their own kleptocracy for forty years

2: The anti's did not start by killing civilians who dared to protest

As to the anti's not constituting a cohesive whole, well very few countries have an opposition that represents a "cohesive whole" but a number of separate groups that share some common ground. I would be willing to venture however that the anti's have enough support and the right to determine their own future.

What we do know about Gaddafi is that to remain in power he has had to ship in mercenaries to kill all those Libyan civilians who love him so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 04:08 PM

That was a pretty poor post for you Mr T

Surely the point Peter is making, is why the fuck are we taking sides in a civil war in a sovereign nation, when we have no idea how many support Col G and how many are against.
In these sorts of conflicts the "people" tend to support whoever they think will win, so the intervention of the Nato assasins must have affected support substancially?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 05:55 PM

akenaton-

"so the intervention of the Nato assasins(sic)"

Well, that's certainly calling a spade a sawzall.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:09 PM

Que??

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:13 PM

Sorry about the typo Charlie :0)
as·sas·sin   /əˈsæsɪn/ Show Spelled
[uh-sas-in] Show IPA

–noun
1. a murderer, especially one who kills a politically prominent person for fanatical or monetary reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 08:39 PM

Score one for Gadhafi's marines. They managed to intercept a shipment of arms to the Rebels from Qatar:

"Libyan officials are claiming to have intercepted two boats carrying a cache of weapons from Qatar, reportedly intended for rebels fighting forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi.

On Monday, Moussa Ibrahim, a government spokesman, said 11 rebels were captured from the boats close to shore near the town of Janzour, just west of Tripoli."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 12:41 AM

A poor post Akenaton??

Care to tell me and everyone else for that matter where anything I have stated is incorrect in any detail?

UN are involved because they were asked to act and the UN Security Council agreed to act.

Arms shipments going to "rebel forces" west of Tripoli? But I thought that, according to Akenaton, the whole of the western part of the country "loved" Colonel Gaddafi, Charley, don't tell me that this extremely unpopular and wholely unsupported rebellion is growing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 12:55 AM

"NATO assassins"---if you want " hysterical", Ake, try looking in the mirror.

One of the main reasons this is dragging on is that NATO is in fact unwilling to assassinate Gadhafi.   As I suggested months ago, this very likely could have been ended long since if NATO (or any opposing force to Gadhafi) had been willing to put a $10 million dollar price on his head.    Too bad this wasn't done---the mercenaries working for him have I'm sure never seen so much money, and they very likely would have ended the whole story for Muammar quite a while ago.


Which would have been better for everybody else in Libya and elsewhere. Lots of lives and money would have been saved.


And, by the way, still waiting for you to tell us how you propose to keep the $60 billion plus from Muammar.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 12:00 PM

Gaddafi has 'suicide plan' for capital: Russia envoy

By Agence France-Presse
Thursday, July 14th, 2011 -- 8:09 am

MOSCOW — Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi has a "suicidal plan" to blow up the capital Tripoli if it is taken by rebels, the Kremlin's special envoy to Libya told a Russian newspaper Thursday.

"The Libyan premier told me: if the rebels seize the city, we will cover it with missiles and blow it up," Kremlin envoy Mikhail Margelov said in an interview with the Izvestia daily.

Margelov met Libyan Prime Minister Baghdadi al-Mahmudi last month.

"I imagine that the Kadhafi regime does have such a suicidal plan," he added, saying that Kadhafi still had plentiful supplies of missiles and ammunition.

But Margelov, who has had rare access to senior Libyan officials, questioned reports that Kadhafi could be running out of arms in the drawn-out conflict.

Kadhafi had still not used a single surface-to-surface missile, he argued.

"Tripoli theoretically could lack ammunition for tanks, cartridges for rifles. But the colonel has got plenty of missiles and explosives."

Margelov met the Libyan prime minister on June 16 in Tripoli after holding talks in Benghazi earlier the same month. He has not met Kadhafi himself.

Russia abstained from a vote on a March UN Security Council resolution that opened the way for foreign involvement and has since criticized the campaign -- particularly arms drops by France.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov met US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Wednesday for talks on Libya, where Lavrov sought to play down differences between the countries.

However, the Russian foreign ministry said earlier Wednesday that Moscow would not take part in talks on Libya later this week in Turkey, which has also seen itself as a mediator in the conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 06:51 PM

bobad-

If that plan's a bluff, it's a good one. Gahdaffi is still a master of manipulating what few pieces he has to play with, and the lives of his supporters are part of his inventory.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 11:15 PM

But the problem, Charlie, is that only one side knows what it wants:   Gadhafi's side:   

He is clear:   he wants 1) survival and   2) revenge

But his opponents are all over the map--can't agree on anything.   The NATO countries are all resenting more and more the steady financial drain. But they're still unwilling to venture beyond the straitjacket imposed both by the UN and their own unwillingness to risk civilian suffering.   On top of that they are constantly squabbling with each other.   And Gaddafi is also trying to play them off against the rebels--who are also getting exasperated (for good reason) with NATO's dithering.   All he has to do is delay--since time is on his side.

On top of this, we are coming up to Ramadan.   If this--as is likely-- does result in a ceasefire, it will be very difficult for NATO countries to convince their electorates to start the war up again.

So we wind up with a de facto split between east and west Libya.

Then what happens to the frozen funds?    We have to make sure none of them go to Gaddafi--but if there's a ceasefire and a split, how do you do that?

What I'd like to know above all else:   did Italy follow through on its earlier promise of a line of credit to the rebels--or did Berlusconi's recent cold feet scotch that?

It seems likely that no NATO country has come through with a line of credit.   And then the West whines about how the rebels loot captured towns.   How the hell else are they to carry on the campaign?

I have to say, I'm not close to as sanguine as you are about how this is going--or the likely outcome.   Hope I'm wrong.

NATO is trying to make this a cross between a war and a "police action".   That's not the way you win anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 08:26 AM

Ron-

"Sanguine"!

How dare you accuse me of that!!! I propose wet noodles at ten paces at an undisclosed location. Wonder if Terribus would act as my second?

I do remember saying something much much earlier with regard to "romantic expectations in uncivil wars" and that my own were quite modest.

Evidently another strategic town was recaptured by the Rebels yesterday and they now claim they are there for keeps.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 03:10 PM

Importants news from Al Jazeera:

"The US has joined 30 other nations in formally recognising Libya's main opposition group as the country's legitimate government until a new interim authority is created.

Friday's decision, which declared Muammar Gaddafi's government no longer legitimate, will potentially free up money that the rebels fighting the Libyan leader's forces urgently need."

This news has provided a much needed morale boost to the Rebels: click here for report!

It should also provide a substantial financial boost as well.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 04:09 PM

Unbelievable!!

And I thought the bankers were robbing bastards.

Apparently.....today's Times reports that an Islamist pary are hot favourites to win Tunisian election

The insurgents in Libya comprise large numbers of Muslim radicals.

Thats Tunisia, Egypt,and in time Libya.....the Islamic axis is taking shape

"Democracy" is sometimes not very democratic.
Be very careful what you wish for Charley.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 11:55 PM

akenaton-

"Democracy" is sometimes not very democratic.
Be very careful what you wish for Charley.

I wish Gadhafi and his family removed but I won't be particularly surprised if the new Rebel government does not live up to anyone's romantic expectations. Shit, it took us ten years or so after throwing off the tyranny of Great Britain to achieve anything resembling a democracy.

But I do wish the Rebels well.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 12:33 AM

1)    "large numbers of Islamic radicals"---exact quote and source please.

2)   So sorry we can't promise you immediately a perfect democracy when Gaddafi falls.   Please tell us, by the way, where in the world you have found such a democracy.

3)   If you can't tell the difference between Gaddafi and the Benghazi government---( now recognized, as Charlie notes, as the only legitimate government in Libya)--then, for the n'th time, please take off your blinders. (This is a recording.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 12:45 AM

But you're right, Charlie.   The recognition of the rebel government--esp. by the US-- is by far the best thing to happen to them in a long time.   Now some of the frozen funds can start flowing to them.   Hope it's not too late, especially considering Ramadan fast approaching--and what that means to the campaign, as I noted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:02 AM

"I do wish the rebels well"

And what do you wish for the thousands who support the Col and the social policies which he implimented......by all accounts the best in the area on Housing, education and health.

Would you gamble them away on the "romantic notion " of democracy? On the whims of a rag tag band of Islamists,youthful dreamers and foreign activists, supported by rapacious nations who serve only their own interests.

The whole developed world hates people like Gadaffi....they want things tied up nice and tight in the bands of the "democratic" system, it makes people much easier to control.....why do you think we are allowing ourselves to be fucked by the rich and powerful at this time?

Forget Libya and start thinking about what is being perpetrated against our own people......in the name of "liberal democracy"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:27 AM

A minor historical detour by way of an a-side:

"Shit, it took us ten years or so after throwing off the tyranny of Great Britain to achieve anything resembling a democracy."

Ehm No - What the English/British Colonists of North America wanted to get rid of was the Government who by honouring their Treaty Obligations with the Native Tribes put shackles on and restrained the rapaciousness of the said Colonists and prevented expansion westwards into the wabash and Ohio Basins.

Rather than being over-taxed at the time the "American Colonists were being subsidised by Britain - They paid one twenty-seventh the taxes being paid by the counterparts in Britain.

"No Taxation without Representation" - Indeed - Complete and utter bullshit"

Back on topic there have been assurances given that there will be no let up in the campaign, Ramadan or no Ramadan. The air effort is to intensify in the run up to the festival.

I admire Akenaton's support of Gaddafi's education programme it comes straight out of "Animal Farm" or the worst of the Marxist Regimes. Tell me Akenaton why was no child in Libya allowed to learn a foreign language?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:55 AM

and I admire your blind allegiance to capitalist liberal democracy Mr T, when every day it sinks deeper in the swamp of corruption.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 09:59 AM

"after throwing off the tyranny of Great Britain" we "Americans" negotiated an option for the Tory loyalists to be transported by the British to the country of their choice. Our record with regard to the Native Tribes is certainly nothing to brag about, nor is that of Canada's.

I think we might lobby for something similar for the Gadhafi loyalists, the ones who are not already indicted for crimes against humanity. I'm convinced than 10% might want to seek such asylum, although I doubt if Gahdafi will spend a petro-dollar on their behalf.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 10:51 AM

So, Ake, because there is corruption in Western democracies, we should leave the Libyans to the tender mercies of the Brother Leader.    You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel in your desperate attempt to justify deserting the rebels now.

I'm sorry to say that the only word to describe the opponents of Western military involvement in Libya now is pathetic.

Though dangerously naive is another description--especially for any of you who think Muammar's threats to bring desolation and terrorism to the West are just harmless bluster.   Above all with the $60 billion in frozen funds you want to hand back to him. You were going to tell us what secret assurances you have from him that he will not use that money to acquire a nuclear bomb or to fund terrorism.

When will you start to think?   We're still waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 01:59 PM

More progress by Rebel forces on the battlefield in and around Brega: Click here for report!

The Rebels also report capturing an important Gadhafi general, Abdul Nabih Zayed. While there are mopping up operations continuing in Brega, the bulk of Gadhafi forces appear to be fleeing west.

Minefields and bobby traps remain behind at oil installations to be disarmed.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 02:19 PM

charley, dont believe the news or propoganda, this could be a european equivalent to vietnam

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 08:34 PM

Dick-

It could well be another "Vietnam" but I am detecting momentum on the part of the Rebels.

ABC News this evening had an interview with one media savvy Rebel commander who claimed that new instructions were going out to those in the field not to plunder Gadhafi supporters. Evidently some plundering has been observed by the foreign media.

So, I already owe you one round. How about double or nothing for Gahdafi fleeing the country by the end of July?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 11:32 PM

Hard put to be a European version of Vietnam with no European ground troops. There speaks the typically Pollyanna attitude of our leftist friends, who have always been so supportive.

But to keep it European ground troops out we should sell the rebels all they need--payment from a line of credit, since they have no hard currency now.   It would be an excellent investment.




Really Charlie?    Muammar flees Libya by the end of July?.   Hell, I'd take that bet in a second.

And you condemn yourself to the crime of being sanguine--after all.

Now that the Benghazi council has been recognized by so many Western states as the only legitimate government in Libya, it's only a matter of time til Gaddafi falls.   But it will still be after July.    Maybe by the end of summer (21 Sept)--and that's if Western powers are willing to start the war again after the expected break for Ramadan.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 11:33 PM

"But to keep European..."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 04:13 AM

It was always inevitable that the invisible assassins would prevail, but surely what we should be debating, is whether regime change by force, by foreign powers, is morally correct.

Most of us threw up our arm in horror over Iraq...yet most of us remain silent on Libya......does this mean we now give tacit approval to this course of action?

If so, God help us all!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:47 AM

akenaton-

And some even remain silent about Iran.

And there's hardly a whisper heard nowadays in the international press about Scotland.

So, I've got two beers riding so far on Gadhafi fleeing to Venezuela by the end of July. Any more takers?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 12:45 PM

no he will still be there by the end of july, I will take it, furthermore heres a good bet djokovic to win the us open at two to one

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:26 PM

"invisible assassins".    Ake, you ought to try your hand at pulp fiction--overwrought prose just flows out of you effortlessly, it seems.

And just think, in pulp fiction, facts and logic are just incidental--or not desired at all.   Fits you like a glove.

You might even make some money at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:27 AM

Wounded Gaddafi soldier says morale of troops is low
July 23, 2011
Posted in July 2011, News, Week Commencing July 18 | 10:12

MISRATA, Libya (Reuters) – Morale is low among troops fighting for Muammar Gaddafi on the front west of Misrata and many are reluctant to fight back against rebel attacks, a recently-wounded loyalist soldier told Reuters on Friday.

"Most of them are exhausted, especially as we approach the month of Ramadan," said the soldier, who spoke on condition his name and his hometown not be mentioned for fear of reprisals against his family. "They don't want to fight during Ramadan."

"They want everything to settle and we're all Libyan brothers," he added. "We don't want to harm each other."

Muslims observe the month of Ramadan by fasting during daylight hours and praying. It is traditionally a time families spend together. This year's Ramadan promises to be gruelling for Muslims, starting during the hot and dry month of August.

The soldier gave the interview from his bed at Misrata's Al Hikma hospital with no one in the room except Reuters staff, offering a rare insight into the morale in Gaddafi's camp.

The soldier said he was shot in the left thigh two or three days ago by rebel fighters on the front line that has been pushed amid heavy fighting and bombardment to around 40 kilometres (25 miles) west of Misrata.

That puts the front around 6 kilometres east of Zlitan, the largest city remaining between the rebels and the capital Tripoli 160 km away.

Rebel fighters in Misrata frequently say many of the young soldiers they come up against in combat seem reluctant to fight, an impression the young soldier confirmed.

"There is no organisation or planning," he said in a quiet voice. "Most times we withdraw."

TREATING BOTH SIDES

When asked why he had joined the fight against the rebels, the government soldier said he had been lied to at the military college he was attending when the uprising began.

"They didn't allow us to watch media channels," he said. "We were only allowed to watch Libyan (state) television."

"I was told (the rebels) were criminal gangs who mutilated bodies."

The soldier said he had expected to be treated badly when he was wounded and captured.

"I was treated with respect," he said. "I did not expect to be treated this well."

On a visit to the International Medical Corps field hospital behind the western front line on Wednesday, a Reuters team saw three wounded Gaddafi loyalists being treated as well as injured rebel fighters.

The hospital staff appeared to treat the patients according to the seriousness of their injury, not which side they were fighting on.

"We have treated those who were with us and those who were against us," said Faisal Mahmoud, a rebel fighter being treated at the hospital for a head injury and wounds to both arms sustained in a mortar attack this week.

The wounded Gaddafi loyalist said he was operated on before other rebel fighters injured the same day.

Both sides in the war that began with street protests across Libya for greater freedom back in February have accused the other of hiring mercenaries to fight. Rebels commonly refer to fighters from Chad or Algeria among Gaddafi's troops.

But the young soldier said "apart from a few people with strange dialects," he had not seen any sign of mercenaries.

Rebel commanders have also said recently they have encountered land mines ahead of Gaddafi loyalist positions, but the soldier said he was not aware of a major mining operation.

Asked what would happen to him when his wound was healed, the young man said he had been told he would be free to go.

"They told me that when things calm down 'we will send you back to your family and we will treat you well,'" he said.

Source Reuters

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:49 PM

Bobad-

Nice story and it may even be true. Sometimes that happens in even uncivil wars.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:12 PM

Libyan women fight for freedom on the home front

By Agence France-Presse
Saturday, July 23rd, 2011 -- 4:26 pm

ZINTAN, Libya — Libyan men have had to reassess how they view the fairer sex since the start of the uprising, and when the dust settles the role of women in the north African country may well have changed for ever.

The women of Libya -- especially in the Nafusa Mountains -- were among the protesters before the fighting started, and since then they have readied their sons and husbands for battle and nursed the wounded.

Meanwhile, they are also fighting for their own emancipation in the new Libya they are helping their men to forge.

Women do not exchange glances on the streets of the conservative Arab city of Zintan at the foot of the Nafusa range in western Libya. Behind walls daubed with graffiti proclaiming a "Free Libya," they move like black phantoms, hidden behind the full veil of the niqab.

At home, the arrival of an unfamiliar male guest sparks panic, and the ladies of the house scatter like bees. In times of war, they spend most of their time cloistered within four walls.

However, the ladies of Libya have felt the winds of change at their backs.

They were chanting "Down with Kadhafi" at the start of the insurrection, alongside the men, calling for veteran strongman Moamer Kadhafi to go.

"I've rallied with plenty of young women, even some pregnant ones. The men were so impressed they fired their Kalashnikovs in our honour! That showed them we were equal, and changed their opinion of us," says Afaf Abusaa, a 20-year-old technology student.

With the men away at the battlefield, the women secure the home front with housework and by providing moral support.

"Men have seen the women nurse the wounded, do volunteer work and cook for the fighters. They've seen mothers tell their sons: 'Go and fight. I will support you.' They hadn't expected that," says Hana Akra, a 24-year-old medical intern.

Women in Libya have come to see the revolution as a route towards their own emancipation, a way to break free from the jobs reserved for them: nurse, secretary or teacher, trades that leave time to take care of the family.

Not they can see a future in which they are not overlooked for a position because a man, albeit a less qualified one, has applied for the same job.

They hope that in the new Libya, their parents will allow them to select their own husbands, that their fathers and brothers will stop bossing them around and forbidding them from actively choosing their own path through life.

"Society is very conservative here," says Najiah Hamza, a 26-year-old medical student. "Women don't really have the chance to control their own destiny. We are always told: 'Don't say this, don't do that.' I hope the revolution helps us."

Forty-year-old Salma Abu Rawi recalls how her parents refused to let her marry her childhood sweetheart because he wasn't from Zintan, while Abusaa would rather not have to wear the veil after she is married.

Akra explains how she has to fight to become a surgeon, a profession reserved for men. "A woman must break the glass ceiling," she says.

"Parents are afraid to let their daughters go out, or work, for fear of gossip. We hope this will change, that men change, that they stop wanting us to be devoted primarily to the house, to the cooking and the children. We also want to be ourselves," says Alazumi Asma, a 22-year-old trainee laboratory assistant.

In the Berber villages of west Libya, women traditionally enjoy more freedom than in other parts of the country.

In Yafran, women do not have to wear the veil in public. They can be seen behind the steering wheels of cars or discussing contraception in front of men. And no one at home can order them around.

Berber ladies feel they have been leading the way towards women's liberation in Libya for some time. "Even under Kadhafi, we wanted to show the way," says Twzeen Ali Abud, a 20-year-old student.

They want to go further still. Women's rights groups are popping up in Zintan, where there is talk of changing the laws on divorce and allowing women to participate in politics.

"The revolution gave us a chance to play a role" in society, says 23-year-old pharmacist Anya Ali Abud.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:48 AM

Have you examined the figures for "womens emancipation" in Iraq bobad?

I take it you see the irony in that cut and paste?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:53 AM

Anybody read the book or see the movie "Wag the Dog"? A Chief Executive is more powerful as a Commander-in-Chief.

Anyone who thinks women will be liberated in Libya, I have a bridge to sell to you. Reason for this is Islam which veils women.

The only revolution is to overthrow Islam (not to mention the other religions). Not by violence, though. By reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:13 PM

I'm all for "reason" backed up with "courage." When both fail, armed civil war is the inevitable next step for those who believe in their cause. And historically many such uprisings have been crushed by those in power and their international allies.

Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia would have been deposed in the early 1960's without the direct intervention of U.S. military "trainers." And many a peaceful protest has been brutally suppressed there since, including those focused on the current regime. But one has to search hard to find the reports.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:38 AM

Religions don't get overthrown, stringsinger. They evolve with time and they change significantly. They adapt to changing societal norms. A brief study of what's happened in Christianity in the last 2,000 years will clearly illustrate my point, and the same thing will inevitably occur with Islam, in fact has been occurring in the last 1500 years, despite retrograde efforts by fundamentalist factions within the religion.

There's always a conservative part of a religious community that wants to keep things frozen in stone and do them like they were done "back in the year One", but they are usually in the minority. Religions change, just as other things in society change.

You're never going to see Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or any other significant religion in this world overthrown, you're going to see them evolve, change, and adapt to new ways of thinking. Now, I know that isn't what you want to see.... ;-) But too bad, cos you can't always get what you want! ;-)

You suggest overthrowing Islam by the power of reason. Aha! That's an excellent idea, to use reason...but reason doesn't overthrow religions, it re-interprets them and comes up with a far more reasonable version of them. That's evolution. Your desire to eradicate religions entirely from this world is not that of a man inclined to reason, it's that of a fanatic bent on forcing everyone else to think the way he wants them to. He figures that since he isn't religious...therefore they shouldn't be either! Sorry. That's not reasonable. It's as unreasonable as insisting that no one be gay, because you aren't gay or that no one should eat lobster, because you don't eat lobster.

****

As to the rest of you...still busy kicking the old Libya can around, eh? Okay, here's the thing. You know what absolutely terrifies Muammar Ghadaffi? You know what keeps him awake at night and causes him to despair for his chances of survival?

This thread on Mudcat! Yeah, that's right. Every morning old Muammar turns on his computer immediately after doing prayer, and he breaks out into a cold sweat as he reads the dire predictions and burning accusations from various worthy gents here who make it a daily habit to utterly damn and destroy Muammar Gadhaffi by way of the keyboard and to pursue him digitally, yea even beyond the grave!!! He shakes in his boots. He begs Allah to save him from the terrors of Mudcat condemnation. His hopes dwindle to zero and he whimpers and moans and beats his little fisties on the ground...just like Saddam, Osama, Manuel Noriega, and a host of other prime baddies used to do. This place reduces such evil types to a quivering pile of jelly on the floor!

Doesn't it make you feel utterly glorious to be basking in the incredible power you wield here as you help to bring down the despicable Mr Gadhaffi? ;-) All I can say is..."Go, team, go!!!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:20 AM

Amen....   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli Donuel-April, 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:11 PM

Poster appears to be Donuel

---

I am not afraid of you Little Bitty Hawk. Your infidel words are hollow and empty.

Muammer Khadafy

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:20 PM

LH-

When you put it that way, I guess I'll have to be even more persuasive. So, you think that we've really got old Gadhafi by the ear!

"Hey, you pile of camel dung, ship out to Venezuela!"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:31 PM

charley, you have a week ,and another bet lost.
libya was divided like most of africa regardless of tribes up, western libya is supporting gadaffi, the west should stop interfering, there interference in dividing libya up, regardless of tribes has caused the present problems

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:07 PM

"Libya was divided up like most of Africa regardless of tribes, Western Libya (Tripolitania) is supporting gadaffi, the West should stop interfering, their interference in dividing Libya up, regardless of tribes has caused the present problems."

Oddly enough what we know as Libya has existed and rubbed along rather well since 1952.

The bit that seems to support Gaddafi is the bit around Tripoli and even then only some of that Cyrenaica is definitely against him as are the mountain tribes to the West of Tripoli and the Feddan in the South West.

The present troubles Dick were caused by Gaddafi ordering his soldiers to shoot unarmed civilian protesters and when some of them refused Gaddafi brought in foreign mercenaries from Mali, Chad and Ghana to shoot them.

None of the rebels are separatists, nobody wants to see Libya broken up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:41 PM

"The present troubles Dick were caused by Gaddafi ordering his soldiers to shoot unarmed civilian protesters and when some of them refused Gaddafi brought in foreign mercenaries from Mali, Chad and Ghana to shoot them"

Now Mr T.... that is so unlike you. You have absolutely no way of verifying that statement.
How do you know that the Col personally ordered the shooting of civilians.....Did Mrs Thatcher personally order the shooting of civilians in Derry?.....I doubt it!

You have no wat of knowing whether or not the Col brought in mercenaries to "shoot civilians".....A captured govt soldier this week told the insurgents that he had seen no mercenaries.

He may have recruited soldiers to bolster troops.
The insurgents CERTAINLY HAVE.....British, Spanish, American, French,
complete with a huge armoury of very offensive weapons

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 12:00 AM

It's obvious to any thinking person--though perhaps that excludes our dear friends who oppose Western military support of the Benghazi rebel council---that it's just not a good idea to split your country.   Neither Gaddafi nor the rebels are in favor of it.

In fact the ones who seem to be in favor of this idea are those Mudcatters still pathetically trying to justify deserting the rebels. And pathetic is certainly the right word to describe said posters.

In the words of my favorite foreign policy analyst, Shania Twain:   That don't impress me much.



However, perhaps this thread is leaning towards becoming a music thread.

My contribution (unless this has already been suggested) would be something starting along these lines:


Gaddafi
Gaddafi
Gaddafi--he take the money and run Venezuela

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 01:08 AM

Akenaton are you suggesting that nobody ordered the shooting of civilian protesters? Did doing that just seem a good idea at the time to those who actually did the shooting? I somehow doubt that.

Mercenaries have been captured Akenaton, please do not try to claim they do not exist.

The other big point of difference. the Armies in most of the countries of the Arab World exist not to "defend the nation" but to "defend those in power", they do not look outwith their borders for enemies to fight they are there to suppress their populations.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:07 AM

Weak post Teribus, as Gadaffi's Libya was the best, in terms of caring for his people, amongst Arab states.

Gadaffi was hated by other Arab leaders because of these policies.

As far as mercenaries go....I did not claim that "they did not exist"
You have stated catagorically that they were brought in "to shoot civilians."

Gadaffi has stated that there were a few civilian deaths during the protests.....he says around ten, I have seen nothing to disprove that figure and it is insignificant compared to the numbers killed in other Arab States.

Or the numbers killed in air strikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:07 PM

Here's an article from Der Spiegel that should interest those who participate in this thread ...

Tribal Rivalries Complicate Libyan War


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 10:54 PM

"hated by other Arab leaders".    Wrong.   By some. Not by others. Particularly not the ones who benefited from his oil money largess.

More to the point is the old question:   why have half his people (or more) turned their backs on this beloved leader--and many are willing to die to oppose him?"

Time at long last for you to take off your blinders, Ake.

Your excuses for deserting the rebels now are worse than threadbare.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 10:59 PM

And your naivete in swallowing Gaddafi's oh-so-objective number on the Libyans killed in protests is so charming.

Look, we will never have an accurate number on that til after the war is over.

That argument is even more feeble than your others.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 10:53 AM

Reported on BBC this morning:

Reporters taken along with their Gaddafi minders to a supposed site of a UN/NATO strike.

Told that so many civilians had been killed and that people/bodies were still trapped in the rubble.

Reporters observed that at no time in the supposed rescue operation was any halt called to stop and listen for signs of life.

Asked if it would be possible to see, just see, not interview, survivors in hospital the reporters were told no that would not be possible.

Asked if it would be possible to see the graves of those who had been killed, the reporters were told no that would not be possible.

Wonder why??

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:44 PM

Charley Noble you have 3 days left.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 09:04 AM

He's obviously going to lose his bet about July.    That was always likely.

However, those who oppose Western military participation in Libya have yet to come up with any remotely reasonable argument for deserting the rebels now.

I am above all still patiently waiting for them to tell us what secret assurances they have that when Gaddafi gets access to the frozen $60 billion--which they no doubt advocate--- he will not use that money to either acquire a nuclear bomb or sponsor terrorism all over the world.

Just answer the question please--we don't need whining about how the West allegedly engages in terrorism---an assertion ridiculous on its face and not deserving of more discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 09:11 AM

It's true that it's looking likely that Gadhafi will hang on past the end of July but I'm still hopeful that he may wise up and make a run for it.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 12:03 PM

According to the Times reporter....it is now a given that Nato involvement was to impliment regime change.....We are now in a stalemate position, but we are trapped....as we cannot be seen to have failed in another intervention.

It is exactly like Iraq and Afghanistan, now it is about not losing face...what a shower of fucking idiots....or are they?
Perhaps that is the master plan, turn the Middle East and North Africa into a War Zone.

They are leaking stuff about "democracy" being a far off dream, as I said, Muslim Fundamentalism rules!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 10:42 PM

"trapped" ,   master plan", etc.    I see the king of purple prose is still at it.   Nice to know some things don't change.   Dewar's, and Ake's flights of fancy.

Too bad he's so divorced from reality.   But it's still entertaining.

It seems that if you're left of center, logic and sense are just a hindrance to "expressing yourself."   


Still waiting for your answer as to, if you get your wish and NATO drops support of the rebel council--now recognized as Libya's only legitimate government by many states---how you propose to keep the $60 billion, now frozen, out of Gaddafi's hands.

Can't understand why you haven't managed to answer the question--you seem to have time to rabbit on about everything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 10:50 PM

Younes, supposedly head of the rebel army, is dead.   The death is a fact.    Circumstances unclear.


Stand by for Ake, Good Soldier, and similar intellectual giants to tell us this proves NATO should not be involved in a murky conflict.

Countdown:   3-2-1...........




It proves nothing of the kind. It only proves no war is without setbacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 10:52 PM

And I still want to know the answer regarding the $60 billion.    Particularly since dear Muammar has promised the West devastation and terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:03 PM

Satisfied???

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:22 PM

akenaton-

Yes, there may well be a conservative Islamic take-over of the Egyptian "Arab Spring" but it's not over yet, just one more large public demonstration.

I'm more concerned about who ordered the murder of General Younes, and the credentials of the general next in line to replace him. The murder of Younes may have been carried out by Gadhafi agents or by Rebel security agents who were ordered to bring him back for questioning. The story so far does not add up.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:58 PM

hmmmm... if the US defaults on it's loans, will it still be able to chuck cruise missles around willy nilly like they were children's toys?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 07:07 PM

"Satisfied???"

I take it this is directed at the people of Egypt who organized to oust their tyrant and who will now attempt to democratically elect the leadership they want. As much as you dislike democracy it beats hell outta tyrannical dictatorship IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 08:57 PM

Here's a link to a more complete report via Al Jazeera of the assassination of General Younes: Click here for report

"Abdel Fattah Younes and his aides were killed by gunmen on Thursday, creating a power vacuum at the top of the opposition military hierarchy and raising questions about who was responsible.

Ali Tarhouni, a rebel minister, said that a militia leader, who had asked to fetch Younes from the frontline near the oil town of Brega, had been arrested and had confessed that his subordinates had carried out the killing."

Gadhafi spokesmen claim that Al Qaida was behind the assassination. The CIA has no comment but their favorite general is ready to take over as commander and chief.

"An angry Mohammed Agoury, a member of the rebel special forces, told the AP news agency that he was present when a group of rebels from a faction known as the February 17 Martyrs' Brigade came to Younes' operations room outside Benghazi before dawn on Wednesday and took him away for interrogation.

Agoury said he tried to accompany his commander, but Younes "trusted them and went alone".

"Instead, they betrayed us and killed him," he said.

The February 17 Martyrs Brigade is a group made up of hundreds of civilians who took up arms to join the rebellion.

Their fighters participate in the front-line battles with Gaddafi's forces, but also act as a semi-official internal security force for the opposition."

This is just the kind of "shot in the foot" that will greatly undercut the momentum that the Rebels have been slowly achieving in the last few weeks.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 09:34 PM

Ake--just answer the question about the $60 billion. Each situation is different. We are talking about Libya--only.

Your question-dodging skills are so advanced, you should consider a career move to politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:08 AM

Ron...I have absolutely no interest in "Col Gadaffi's billions"....money is a mirage and can be made to disappear at will.
Money to me has no worth, other than to keep me and mine fed, I look forward to the day when it and the stinking system it supports are consigned to the dustbin.

I am sure the billions will end up financing some nice "liberal" government somewhere and giving them the opportunity to bomb the shit out of somebody completely different.

"WE are talking about Libya only".....yes??   Don't you see what is happening?.....Didn't I tell you the masks would soon fall?

Egypt is the template, examine it well, for it is also the future.

The irony is, that you do not see the Trojan Horse; you who have everything to lose by way of ideology, supposed freedom, and "equality".....While I, who would be happy to see the end of this form of Capitalist "liberal democracy" call out the warning!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:14 AM

Bullshit rating.....0.06. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:25 PM

"money has no meaning".    That proves what kind of a fantasy world you live in.

The rest of us live in the real world.   With $60 billion, dear Muammar could rather handily carry out his plan--already announced--to bring devastation and terrorism to the West.

Which obviously is just peachy with you--since despite being asked multiple times how you would prevent it, you have come up with precisely zero solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:26 PM

Excuse me, your quote was "money has no worth".    But my post is still totally valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:36 PM

The UN resolution all that time ago called for an immediate ceasefire. The UN Secretary General recently repeated this call.

It is still the only realistic way forward. Ceasefire followed by negotiations.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 04:39 AM

The Times are today rowing back from their position on Libya....calling it a mess and calling into question the motives of the insurgents.

They now visualise a split nation after a bloody civil war...just like Iraq.

I'm no conspirisy theorist, but could this have been the objective all along, was the Arab spring simply an excuse to de-stabilise the whole region?

We certainly have a history of using these tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:39 AM

"They now visualise a split nation after a bloody civil war...just like Iraq."

Whatever happens in Tunisia; Egypt; Yemen; Syria; Bahrain and Libya will happen. It will happen because for the first time in any of those countries existences the "people" will decide and the "people can chose whatever they want.

Militant fundamentalist Islam is an evil and a force that will have to be confronted exactly as fascism was and exactly as communism was in their day. If what the people of the arab nations mentioned elect to chose extreme fundamentalist regimes to rule then that is no problem it merely serves to better define the enemy and steps can be taken counter their influence.

So what if Libya is split? By the way could you tell me when Iraq had its "civil war" and when it split? As far as I am aware Iraq still exists as a united country under a democratically elected government - more than can be said for - Tunisia; Egypt; Yemen; Syria; Bahrain or Libya.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 11:19 AM

Ah but who are the people?...are they the supporters of the Col, or the insurgents?

Would they still have been a rag tag gang without OUR help?

Are they about to confront "liberal democracy"?

"The people" is indeed a beast of muddy brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 11:56 AM

Don't underestimate the oppressive religious influence of Islam in Tripoli or Egypt.
This creates sectarian wars, Bahrain in particular.The idea that Iraq is unified or democratic is ludicrous, officials dodging IED's, military abuses by U.S. soldiers there, the pollution of water, the cancers rampant in the area, the corrupt political leaders that are subservient to American political interests and the specious training of the Iraqi police force of which those trainees will wind up killing American soldiers. They have a "higher calling" to Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 12:01 PM

You can't bomb ideas into a foreign country. Education, not bombs is the answer.
Also, constructive behavior not destruction builds trust. Gadaffi may go but there will be another immediately to replace him unless the root causes are addressed, a re-education about the nature of fundamentalism and the damage it does, a relinquishing of political opportunism on the part of the conquerors, and the placing of military solutions into a lesser role in the solving of international affairs.

Look at Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood is growing and the Egyptian military are calling the shots eroding the progress of the Arab Spring.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:36 PM

"the Egyptian military are calling the shots eroding the progress of the Arab Spring."
I thought that the army had taken interim control with popular consent.
Elections are pledged.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 08:51 AM

"ceasefire followed by negotiations".    No.    And what's more I think the poster knows why.    I have already alluded to the problem.

The Gaddafi regime still has more money and more weapons--thus more staying power. As the poster well knows, the Libyan war is already unpopular with sizable numbers of Westerners---including the poster himself.

Once the West stops bombing Gaddafi's forces, it will be very difficult to persuade various Western electorates to start up again.   But without that the rebels will be stymied.

Which I think is what the poster has in mind in his disingenuous call for a ceasefire.   Either that or he is not thinking through the consequences.

We may still see an unofficial ceasefire-- for Ramadan--and the problem I have noted will become obvious to all.

Also, if we accept a partition of Libya--against the wishes of both Gaddafi and the rebels--we accept the legitimacy of Gaddafi's regime.   And he will have a legal claim to at least part of the frozen funds. With results I have already noted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 08:57 AM

"another to replace him" .    Meaning another vicious dictator who claims to embody Libya.

Not likely.

And if you are whining about the chancy prospects for a perfect democracy in Libya, please specify where in the world you have found such a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 09:20 AM

Imperfect democracies can still be better than the alternative, and historically have improved over time.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM

Evidently "the assassination of General Younes" is not of interest to our community of ardent posters. I was thinking this assassination might be a critical tipping point in how the public within Libya, not to mention the Western World, views this uncivil war. But I've misjudged history in the making before.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 01:13 PM

The fact that it led to the uncovering and disbanding of a fifth column of Gaddafi loyalists in the midst of the rebels can't be anything but positive going forward. Also, France has released $259 million in frozen funds to the NTC. On the negative side the rebels lost control of the village of al-Jawsh at the foot of the strategic western Nafusa mountains. So it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:50 PM

"The idea that Iraq is unified or democratic is ludicrous,"

Apparently a damn sight more unified and democratic than Ba'athist Syria at the moment.

"officials dodging IED's,"

Sure you are not confusing things with Afghanistan?

"military abuses by U.S. soldiers there,"

US troops have not been patroling the streets, roads or countryside of Iraq since 2009. The US at the moment have no front line combat units operating in Iraq. US Forces still present in the country are support troops and they will all have been withdrawn by the end of December this year.

"the pollution of water,"

I think that you will find that Saddam Hussein was responsible for that.

"the cancers rampant in the area,"

Absolutely amazed that all these cancers are all put down exclusively to use by US Forces of depleted uranium munitions, which you could actually grind up into a powder and eat by the bucketfull and it would not do you, or any of your prospective offspring one whit of harm. Apart from this the areas where these cancer occurences are "rampant" were not the scenes of major combat where DU munitions were used (Fallujah and Basra).

During Desert Storm there were no major armoured battles around either city. In the wake of the 2003 invasion there were only two battles in Fallujah, the second one all but 2% of the civilian population fled the battle and the insurgents had no armour so exactly what use would DU munitions be to the attacking force (USMC) - Answer to that is none whatsoever DU munitions are heavy for use against personnel there are far more effective options that are lighter meaning that your time over target is improved.

But let's see what did happen around Basra in the wake of Desert Storm - Remember the Shia uprising that the President of the US did all he could to foment then did the square root of F**k All to support. Saddam's military were alowed to fly helicopters Mil-24 Hind Gunships who are armed with cannon that fire DU ammunition. Basra and the Shat al-Arab home of the Ma'adan, the Marsh arabs where Saddam drained the marshes and poisoned the water by way of reprisals.

How about Fallujah, could all those "rampant" cancers have anything to do with Saddam's chemical and biological warfare reseach labs and manufacturing plants located in the area?

"the corrupt political leaders that are subservient to American political interests"

You mean the ones who are so subservient that they have told the Americans to quit by the end of this year? Or the ones who are so subservient that the bulk of all Iraqi oil exploration and field development licences have been awarded to those who were Iraq's traditional trading partners (Russia; China & France)

"and the specious training of the Iraqi police force of which those trainees will wind up killing American soldiers."

Best get their skates on then they have less than 5 months left to fulfil your prediction as all US troops will have left. Oh, but hang on though weren't you one of the camp who predicted that:

- The CPA was a permanent feature
- There would never be any elections
- Iraq would splinter in three
- The US would steal Iraq's Oil

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 04:23 PM

Teribus.....you must be fair, Iraqi women do not see much advantage from the new "democracy", it is simply a cover for resurrected Islamism.

Just like the insurgency in Libya.

Bobad.....I cant believe that you are swallowing that nonesense about Gadaffi loyalists. These people are Muslim fundamentalists, who were kept down by Gadaffi, in the same manner as fundamentalism in Iraq was punished by Saddam.

We have shot ourselves in the foot .....again!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:05 PM

Well Ake, the information I have came from an Al Jazeera reporter in Benghazi.

"Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley, reporting from Benghazi, said the battle was launched to subdue elements of Gaddafi's forces that had been operating as a "fifth column" within the opposition ranks.

He said that documents had been found at the base that linked the brigade to Gaddafi."

If you have a better source please share the info with us or are you just inventing facts that buttress your ideology?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 09:52 PM

"these people are Moslem fundamentalists". Some are.   And a good number in Libya, including, it appears, those in charge of the provisional government, are not

As witness, for instance, the explosion of press freedom in Benghazi.   All sorts of newspapers.    How many newspapers in Tripoli are not controlled by the Gaddafi regime?

But please don't let us stop you, Ake, from smearing any group with one of the labels guaranteed to be a red flag for Westerners--in your continuing pathetic attempt to justify deserting the rebels at this point.

And though it pains me to say it, pathetic is more and more the word for those trying to end the West's military support for the rebels.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:09 AM

My point Ron....as you well know, is that the people who killed the general belong to an "Islamic militia".....why would these people conceivably want to support Col Gadaffi?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:04 AM

akenaton-

It is certainly in the interests of Gadhafi to reinforce suspicion among the Rebels of the motives of their more conservative "comrades." It's hard to tell from our perspective whether this "Islamic militia unit" was a rogue element or a more general faction which includes a majority of Islamic militants.

One could conjure up a scenario where the CIA is well aware of the assassination plans (and evidently detailed plans have been recovered now) of the February 17 Martyrs' Brigade and was happy to watch them executed so their favorite general Klalifa Haftr, shipped back to Libya early in the campaign from his exile in Fairfax, Virginia, could assume control of the Rebel military operations. But that might be giving the CIA too much credit.

Meanwhile on the battlefield towns and villages in both the East and West are still switching back and forth between Rebel control and control by Gadhafi forces.

I may go back to playing chess, a brutal game but one where there is a minimum of collateral damage.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:08 PM

Ron....your writing style leaves much to be desired,do you really need to make so many personal and insulting observations?

Why don't you examine Charley's post....He and I disagree on a regular basis, yet I am beginning to look on him as a friend rather than an enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 05:05 PM

Oh, and I misspelled "Khalifa Haftr" first name in my post above. He's certainly a curious character who surfaced in Libya at the end of March with a good deal of media fanfare, remarks of how sharp he looked in his non-military attire.

For a while he was actively vying for the job of commander in chief but General Younes appeared to come out on top. I can't seem to find any recent mention of Haftr. Maybe someone else will have better luck. He may no longer even be a major player. However, if I were writing a screen play for the Libyan Civil War, I would certainly cast him as a CIA operative.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:44 PM

Ake--just answer the question about the $60 billion.   Or admit you don't have an answer.   Your arguments are very weak.    If you don't like this being pointed out, you can come up with stronger ones.    Or possibly just not comment further.

People are being killed in Libya every day since this is dragging on.   It is no joke and sometimes it seems to me opponents of the West's military involvement actually think there is a reasonable alternative to seeing this through to Gaddafi's removal from power.   Any other alternative is a disaster.   Your obstructionism--and of course those others of your viewpoint-- helps nobody except Gaddafi, and as I said, your arguments are worse than threadbare.




Charley--Do you have any concrete evidence of CIA complicity in the Younis killing?   I have read the articles you linked to and see none.    Have I missed something?    CIA involvement is exactly the sort of spectre the Left is constantly seeing in any incident--so if there is something really there it needs to be brought out, and if there is nothing, the speculation only plays into the hands of Gaddafi.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:46 PM

"of course that of those who share your viewpoint"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:53 PM

And Ake, you were in fact smearing the entire Libyan opposition to Gaddafi with a phrase guaranteed to be a red flag to Westerners.    Which is exactly what I said.   And such smearing is both a low and an effective tactic.   So you have shaky ground to stand on in complaining of an aggressive post in response.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 03:27 AM

Not so Ron....right from the start I have said that the insurrectionists are comprised of diverse groups, amonst those groups are some misty eyed idealists I am sure.

In fact, I was once such a person myself.....but the pills worked wonders!

From most of the reports, it appears that radical Islamists and opportunist tribal factions make up the bulk, or the most powerful elements of the insurgency, backed of course by countries who have a serious selfish interest in ousting the Col.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:18 AM

Ron-

"any concrete evidence of CIA complicity in the Younis killing?"

The short answer, which should not be surprising, is "No!" I have no contacts within the CIA and they haven't admitted any complicity publicly.

General Khalifa Haftr has been linked by some bloggers to the CIA but evidently only because his home in exile in Fairfax, Virginia, is within five miles of CIA headquarters. And no one I'm aware of has suggested that Haftr was directly involved in the assassination of General Younes, but Haftr is logically the Rebel general who will benefit the most from his death. Connecting the dots as I've been doing is not conclusive proof of anything but does raise a question that I think merits further research.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:41 AM

My point is that even speculating about a CIA connection plays into the hands of those who want the West to end military involvement--and thus into Gaddafi's hands. So it's not helpful. The rebels have enough problems without fearing that their ostensible supporters are killing their leaders.

The paranoia should be on Gaddafi's side. Which is why the $10 million on his head would have worked wonders.    There doesn't even have to be a successful plot to kill Gaddafi--consider Hitler's behavior after 20 July 1944.    Didn't exactly help his war effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:20 AM

Ah, we are not allowed to speculate?

Sounds ominous!

I thought you were a democrat Ron?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:22 AM

My understanding is that the Younis killing could have been a result of tribal rivalries. It could have been revenge for something Younis did while a Gaddafi general.. It could have been financed by Gaddafi.   Or other possible factors.   Or a combination of the above.

Point is:   the perpetrators should be caught and punished. And the entire Gaddafi opposition should return to the business at hand:   removing Gaddafi from power.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:22 PM

Ron-

Bad news is bad news.

Here's an interesting clip from today's Guardian:

Muammar Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, said he was forging a behind-the-scenes alliance with radical Islamist elements among the Libyan rebels to drive out their more liberal-minded confederates . It was difficult to assess how serious Gaddafi was about this. At one point he said: "Libya will look like Saudi Arabia, like Iran. So what?" Guma al-Gamaty, a London-based co-ordinator for the rebel National Transitional Council, said Gaddafi was "bluffing" in order to "scare the west". "There's nothing in it," he said, pointing out that the Gaddafis had in the past claimed that the rebels were Islamists; his comments now proved those accusations were "totally false", he said. Islamist leader Ali Sallabi said he had had conversations with Gaddafi but dismissed the idea that they had formed an alliance.

Very cleaver, how fast Gadhafi moves to reinforce Rebel disarray in the wake of the assassination of General Younes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:00 AM

Teribus's post at 31 Jul 11 - 05:39 AM above is exceptional nonsense even by his own standards. He accepts that kicking out Gadaffi could make way for a worse regime regime (albeit democratic). But that's ok, he says - we'll deal with it. Another war? And does he think that one would also be legitimised by Arab-league endorsement? (
His whole tack is risible in any case, as evidenced by the west's response to belligerent islamic fundamentalism in Iran.

The extraordinary thing about this thread is the determination to ignore what's happening in Syria. Horrors so bad that even Saudi's King Abdullah has condemned them. Yet Ron solemnly declares that we must confine ourselves to Libya and ignore the wider context. No wonder. His argument that Gadaffi's unpleasant style of leadership justifies war falls to the ground when Syria is considered. For as I pointed out dozens of posts ago, however unpleasant Gadaffi may be, Assad is infinitely unpleasanter.

All Ron can do is witter on about Gadaffi's $60bn. He fails to take on board that Libya by international norms has very light defences. Get real, Ron. You can't build a national defensive capability for $60bn. And it would take vastly more than that to give it offensive capability. Oh, and it would take many years, and the whole scenario of Gadaffi withdrawing some cash and buying some guns is grossly improbable anyway.

As again I said earlier, Libya was a soft option for the west, and they're struggling even with that. Syria on the other hand is armed to the hilt, which is why its wantonly brutal regime will continue unchecked if the US and UK have anything to do with it.

As Ake told you, Ron, it's not about money. It's about will. And where there's a will there's a way. Witness the humble Taliban's success in taking out (in open warfare) some guys from the unit that murdered Bin Laden.

As for all the prattling about democracy, that's bollocks. For the west the flag of democracy is no more than a flag of convenience - an excuse to replace Saddam, for instance, with a regime that suppresses women's rights. Kissinger, for all his faults, was at least being honest when he said in relation to the other 9/11: "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:09 AM

What I find risible is Peter K's position is that one size must fit all. Whilst ignoring what caused UN (Note that Peter - UN) intervention in Libya.

For years Libya was a pariah state which sponsored terrorism throughout the world and was isolated and contained. Then came 9/11 and the post-9/11 US Threat Evaluations where Libya found itself quite near the top of a list of countries that US Intelligence Agencies compiled as potential candidates for the role of "Rogue State", the list also included Iraq; Iran; Syria & North Korea.

This gave Col Muammar Gaddafi pause for thought particularly as he watched the heat being ratcheted up against the country on the top of the list - Iraq. Neither France, China or Russia were whispering in Gaddafi's ear as they were advising Saddam that, "The US are only bluffing. They won't do anything they can't do anything because we'll use our veto to stop them."

Then in March 2003 the USA took out the #1 Candidate for "Rogue State". Gaddafi folded because he knew something about the US Intelligence Agencies list of likely "Rogue State" candidates - ALL were running secret nuclear weapons programmes aided, abetted and facilitated by Dr A.Q.Khan's network.

Gaddafi lost his nerve and dramatically renounce ALL of Libya's WMD programmes and in the process of "coming clean" he led the revelation of Khan's highly illegal network and North Korea's involvement in it.

There is only one reason you run a secret nuclear weapons programme - it means that you intend to use those weapons offensively - a secret nuclear weapons programme has no deterrent value whatsoever.

As the layers of Khan's onion were pealed away Iran crash stopped its weapons programme in 2003 to see which way the wind was going to blow, but their secret uranium enrichment plants were now out in the open and known to the IAEA (Iran's programme was now no longer a secret so it's threat was neutralised) Syria's links with A.Q.Khan were investigated and Israeli aircraft with the assistance of Turkey wiped out the Syrian facility with an airstrike, Syria's protests were muted and no-one was allowed access to the site until Syrian and North Korean "experts" dismantled the site and sanitised it (Unfortunately not efficiently enough for the IAEA inspectors they detected traces of radio-active materials).

Come the "Arab Spring" and Peter K wants me to hypocritically condemn Libyan Rebels for seeking a democratic election in Libya whilst I must support Hamas in Gaza??

The Arab League requested UN intervention in Libya, they did not request intervention in either The Yemen; Bahrain or in Syria. Probably because whilst the Arab League and GCC could regionally influence what was happening in Yemen; Bahrain & Syria - they could not in Libya (Both of Libya's neighbours east and west were in turmoil having just experienced their own "revolutions").

Unfortunately degrees of unpleasantness do not dictate what the UN can or cannot do. What is happening in Syria is strictly an internal matter, what was happening in Libya in February and March this year would have been strictly internal too had Gaddafi not resorted to hiring in Mercenaries to kill Libyan citizens.

On degrees of unpleasantness Peter what did the UN do about Darfur? Nothing - Right? Much worse than either Libya; Syria or what was happening in Iraq at that time. "Worst humanitarian disaster of our time" said Kofi Annan, but he refused to term it genocide as GWB did, because then the UN would have been automatically compelled by its charter to act.

The middle-east is tricky enough as it is Syria has Iran as an ally and has the potential to set the region alight so it requires extremely careful handling which is why your "one-size-fits-all" cannot work.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:10 PM

Teribus, despite your particular emphasis on the point, I think you'll find that the UN is NOT engaged in Libya. The UN resolution committed no-one to war and certainly does not mean that this is a UN offensive.

There is only one reason you run a secret nuclear weapons programme - it means that you intend to use those weapons offensively - a secret nuclear weapons programme has no deterrent value whatsoever. Really, Teribus? Really?? Couldn't there be another reason? Could it not be that if a WMD programme is openly declared, countries who already have nuclear weapons try to interfere? (For some reason they are very proscriptive about who can join the club. Thus Israel ok, Iran no way.)

...what was happening in Libya in February and March this year would have been strictly internal too had Gaddafi not resorted to hiring in Mercenaries to kill Libyan citizens. Ingenious, but sheer tosh.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:36 PM

Peter's right Teribus.....is our war machine not being used to kill Libyan citizens?

Our leaders no longer even bother to contradict the claims that we are engaged in regime change in our national interst.

The bit about mercenaries justifying our involvement was particularly lame.
You must have had to really force yourself to write that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM

UN member states are involved in Libya at the specific request of the Security Council - The Resolution is UNSCR 1973 and that is fact not fiction.

So   "...what was happening in Libya in February and March this year would have been strictly internal too had Gaddafi not resorted to hiring in Mercenaries to kill Libyan citizens.

"Ingenious, but sheer tosh." Eh??

Care to point out anywhere in the quoted passage where I am in error. Gaddafi, or his sons most certainly gave the orders but large numbers of his officers and troops refused to obey them, so Gaddafi had to bring in mercenaries recruited from Niger, Mali, Algeria, Ghana and Burkina Faso.

Care to tell me where Assad in Syria is using mercenaries? Are Iran supplying the Syrian military with troops from their Revolutionary Guards?

"Could it not be that if a WMD programme is openly declared, countries who already have nuclear weapons try to interfere?" - PeterK

As the countries involved are signatories of the Nuclear NPT they have to follow the terms of the treaty should they wish to leave and develop nuclear weapons. It is all very well laid out and explained in the treaty document. By following to the letter the procedure for this then cuts the country off from receipt of technical aid or assistance from all other signatories, this did not suit Iran, Libya, Syria or North Korea.

Israel is not a signatory member of the Nuclear NPT her nuclear industry roughly dates the same as that of the UK and France and predates the NPT by about 13 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:28 PM

Whilst ignoring what caused UN (Note that Peter - UN) intervention in Libya.

Huff and puff till the cows come home, Teribus, but it won't ever make that statement right. It would have been more dignified to apologise.

On the question of mercenaries, you are flailing at a straw man. I do not question at all that Gadaffi used mercenaries. I was just laughing at your claim that it was Gadaffi's use of mercenaries that provoked the US bombing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:21 AM

So appeals to the UN by the Arab League and the GCC played no part then Peter, is that what you are attempting to put across as the truth? If so you will have a tough time of it, because if memory serves me correctly it was not until they got involved that the UN acted.

Had there been no UNSCR 1973 would the bombing have occured? If that were true the bombing would have started earlier - it didn't. So the intervention in Libya is a direct result of actions taken and resolutions passed by the UN.

No huffing and puffing Peter K just plain old well documented and recorded fact. Ignore it if you wish but that will not alter the fact of the matter.

The Libyan Leader introduced a foreign or outside element to what up until then had been a purely domestic matter, that is what troubled the Arab League and the GCC, and they went to the UNSC. Again a fact. You don't like facts do you Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 10:08 PM

Gaddafi no longer able to mount credible offensive, continues recruitment of ruthless mercenaries -- Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/08/11/gaddafi-unable-to-launch-offensive-nato-commander/

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 12:41 AM

800

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 07:41 AM

Just in case anyone is still interested, the Rebels claimed today (again) that they have full control of Brega.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 09:50 AM

Also reported today Charley is that Gaddafi's forces are now no longer capable of mounting offensive operations

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 01:43 PM

Oh! does that mean he cant kill any more civilians?

Suppose its time to bring all our war machines home then!

That'll be right!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 05:02 PM

The update from Al Jazeera today about the evolving situation in Brega is more guarded:

"Libya's opposition fighters are continuing their push to capture a strategic oil terminal in Brega, which is still in control of forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi.

The rebels took over the residential zone of New Brega, located about 15km from the central oil terminal and port area, on Thursday.

Mohammed Zawawi, the opposition spokesman, told the Reuters news agency on Friday it was still not safe to go into the city.

"Now we are trying to clear that area. There are some Gaddafi troops still there," Zawawi said.

Troops loyal to Gaddafi are holding onto the oil facilities and firing rockets at rebel positions. At least eight rebel fighters have been killed and another 25 wounded in the latest fighting.

"There's close fighting in the oil terminal area this morning, but maybe we can finish it off today," Mohammad Muftah, a rebel soldier, said."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 10:14 AM

"Oh! does that mean he cant kill any more civilians?"

Mounting an offensive against the rebel forces is one thing, the targeting and killing of civilians is quite another...........that's quite a reach there Ake, even for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 11:36 AM

In war, the guilty and innocent suffer regardless of whose side their on.

The bombing of Tripoli doesn't get to the root cause of the problem, a dictator who has
deluded his followers, a simplistic knee-jerk reaction by the US military to bomb away ideologies that they don't understand, a military solution which is the last way to alleviate problems in the world that require construction of buildings, educational facilities, eliminating corruption in law enforcement, (yes you Karzai), infrastructure, disease control not contamination through radiation, and a humane policy toward innocent people. not the wholesale murder of them.

Godzilla meets King Kong and the US government doesn't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:08 PM

"...guilty and innocent".

Ah yes, another contribution from one of our main sources of ponderous platitudes.

With the classic moral relativism we have grown to know and love--and see constantly on the Left.


There is no comparison between the murderous regime of an unstable dictator and the rebel council in Benghazi.   If you think there is, who is your candidate for dictator in Benghazi?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:18 PM

Also--Peter--your ignorance is showing (again).   What a surprise.

You don't need huge defensive capabilities to cost the West hugely.    All you need to do is sponsor terrorism.    Which Muammar has promised to do.

I take it you have no problem with giving him part of the frozen $60 billion.   

Good thing you are far from the levers of power--and probably will always be so.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:22 PM

"As Ake has told you, it's not about money." That makes two of you brilliant thinkers.

Sorry, in the real world, money means something--or perhaps even a bit more than something.   Who knows, maybe someday you Leftists will start to understand.   Or maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 10:50 AM

Meanwhile on the other battlefield, in Libya, the Rebels according to Al Jazeera, are making progress on capturing the strategic town of Az-Zawiyah: click here for story

Opposition fighters fought for control of the towns of Gharyan and Az-Zawiyah on Sunday, attempting to cut off the southern coastal route from Tunisia that Gaddafi uses for supplies.

Zeina Khodr, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Az-Zawiyah, reported that the rebels had taken control of a bridge along which the highway from Tripoli to Tunisia runs, but that central areas of the city remained contested, with Gaddafi forces employing snipers and mortar fire.

The battle also raged near the gates of the city.

Al Jazeera's Khodr said opposition fighters claim "they have managed to take 70 per cent of the town, despite the threat of snipers still in the area".

Government forces are still resisting Rebels within the town and may be reinforced from Tripoli, a half hour away by road transport. But there are seems to be support for the Rebels from the resident population of the town.

So, this uncivil war could be wound up by the end of the month. Oh, yah, I've said that before. Any takers for another round of beer?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 11:50 AM

The end of August?      Charley, you must have a big bank account.   I'll take your bet. No way will it be over by the end of August (unfortunately).    My concern is that it looks like it has to be over by the end of September, since some NATO powers have said they will only support the campaign through September.

So the big push has to be now--but the outcome is still uncertain. Especially since the Union of African States is trying to tempt the rebels constantly with negotiations---but with Gaddafi still in Libya.    They need to stay strong on rejecting that idea totally.   It would be like the 3rd Reich negotiating peace with Hitler still in Germany.

There are still some who do in fact see Gaddafi as the embodiment of Libya--no surprise since he's been dictator for about 40 years. So he will no doubt have his version of the Hitlerjugend.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 12:44 PM

Big article in today's Times about the large numbers of Islamist activist in the ranks of the insurgents.

A Diplomat commented...."We've known about the growth of Islamists in the rebel ranks for some time, but have chosen to ignore it....to turn a blind eye, believed that they were few and they could handle it....I'm no longer sure, Its a mess."

It has now been revealed that Gen Younis and his aids were turned over to an Islamic militia on Govt orders, where they were tortured and killed........Marie Colvin the Times.


Just keep watching Egypt you goons!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 01:15 PM

Ake, is what Assad is doing to his people in Syria preferable to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 01:41 PM

No.....Why do you ask?

Without Western fire power this insurrection would be over long since with only a handful of casualties.

Just like Iraq, we are helping to install a regime which will be worse for the people of Libya than the one it replaces, (an Islamic State) and cause thousands of deaths in doing so.

Col Gadaffi's soldiers and civilians are human too....and their conditions of health, education and housing were the best in the area.

Do you really believe we are engaged there for reasons of freedom and democracy for Lybians?....if you do you are very naive indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 01:51 PM

"No.....Why do you ask?"

Because that is what Gaddafi was doing to his people and would still be doing if he was able to.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 03:00 PM

"government orders".    Exact quote, please--with exact source.

And "a Diplomat (sic)".    Again, exact source and exact quote, please.

"The Times" and one name doesn't cut it.   What are her sources?


Not that we'd ever suspect you were not totally objective, Ake.   Of course not.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 06:28 PM

The article from the Sunday Times ace war reporter Marie Colvin, is in todays Sunday Times.

I am unable to link to this article as I am not a subscriber.

I could cut and paste, but it is rather long.


By the way Ron, the reason that you and others on this thread support our involvement, appears to be, that you THINK the Col MAY HAVE been about to butcher the inhabitants of Benghazi, although he said no such thing.....nothing very "exact" about holding that position!

What he actually said, was that he would search out and find the criminals no matter where they were hiding.
Typical Gadaffi rhetoric!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 11:09 PM

Rebel forces continue to tighten their grip around Tripoli according to various news reports. Here's the latest report from Al Jazeera: click here for story

There is still little clarity with regard to who was behind the assassination of the Rebel General. There are some interesting speculations who was behind it, and that the assassination has severely strained the National Transition Council.

Meanwhile it was also reported that the Libyan Interior minister and has family had fled by private plane to Cairo.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 12:06 AM

There are reports of discussions taking place on the Tunisian Island of Djerba between representatives from Gaddafi and members of the NTC. A member of the NTC, Wahid Bourchan, told AFP that many officials of the Gaddafi regime were seeking asylum in Europe, particularly in France.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 05:08 PM

From today's Times.

James Hider, Michael Evans, Deborah Haynes, Tom Coghlan Last updated August 17 2011 12:01AM
The collapse of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's regime would lead to a dangerous power vacuum in Libya, with the Western-backed rebel leadership in disarray and not ready to take control, diplomatic and military sources have warned.

A Western diplomat based in Benghazi described the prospect of Tripoli falling to the rebels as the "worst-case scenario" in the present climate.

Signalling the extent of Nato's concerns amid speculation that the endgame is in sight, officials from the alliance told The Times that victory against the regime would result in what is now being referred to as "catastrophic success".

A senior alliance diplomat told The Times: "This is the phrase now being generally used in Nato, that we are facing a catastrophic success in Libya. And even if it's not catastrophic it will be chaotic success because the opposition is not ready to govern and there will be a vacuum if Gaddafi goes.

Deep and deadly divisions within the rebel National Transitional Council (NTC) appeared last month with the murder of the rebel army chief, General Abdel Fatah Younis, by one of his own militia groups, an unsolved killing that led to the Cabinet being dissolved. No new Cabinet has yet been formed.

"With the killing of Younis and the possible fall of Tripoli now, the planning has gone with the wind," said the Western diplomat, based in Benghazi. "There's no NTC structure at all, the executive committee is gone, nothing has taken its place. I think it'd be the worst case scenario if Tripoli falls right now, there'd be nobody to take charge."

He warned that the West had seriously underestimated the growing influence of Islamists and the "significant" role played by Libya's tribes, instead focusing on Western-educated liberals who "said the right things". Full article

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 05:35 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:19 PM

"typical Gadhafi rhetoric"

He has also called the rebels "rats" and "traitors".

Guess what other vicious dictator did the same thing.    Try Hitler.

Your faith, Ake, that Gaddafi's ranting would not be backed up with action is touchingly naive.    But at some point you actually should start living in the real world.

At this point you seem to have no connection with reality.

And, of course, since you cannot give direct quotes with sources, also no credibility.

Your main role in this thread seems to be comic relief. But the one joke you have is tired. You might try a different venue (different thread).

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:28 PM

"A Western diplomat".    So this is your latest feeble excuse for deserting the rebels.

Of course there will a power vacuum when Gaddafi falls. Just like when Hitler fell.   How did it work out in Germany?    Where there also was a very weak democratic tradition.

One of the many reasons, besides the fact that Gaddafi has for 40 years made political parties or any other source of opposition to him in Libya impossible, is the fact that even now no one person can dare to call himself the head of the provisional council--since he would then be a marked man for Gaddafi's assassins    And dear sweet Muammar in fact has a long record of sending assassins all over the world to kill dissidents. Much less opposition in Libya itself.

Think Hitlerjugend.

If you would lift a finger to do a bit of research you would not have to be spoonfed this information.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:31 PM

"there will be"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:31 PM

"there will be"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:51 PM

akenaton-

A Western diplomat based in Benghazi described the prospect of Tripoli falling to the rebels as the "worst-case scenario"

Odd that this Western diplomat prefers to remain anonymous. But he certainly reinforces your position.

Yes, I agree that the NTC has challenging problems but they are somehow continuing to be effective on the battlefield, backed up by NATO. It is difficult to predict what will happen but I do expect there will be general celebration in Tripoli when Gadhafi and his gang are finally captured or run out.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 03:07 AM

Ron ...ever heard of foresight? most commentators are now saying what I've been alluding to for months.....and panic is setting in as the composition of the insurgency becomes apparent.

"He warned that the West had seriously underestimated the growing influence of Islamists and the "significant" role played by Libya's tribes, instead focusing on Western-educated liberals who "said the right things".

"Liberals who said the right things"......does that remind you of anyone Ron?.....Useful idiots?

The fundamentalists have played this to perfection, as in Iraq, using their bitterest enemies blinded by their own liberal ideology and greed, to fight their war and win their victory for them.

One by one the strong men are falling.....and ask yourself Ron, who are the only beneficiaries?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 08:20 AM

akenaton-

So we're left the choice of supporting existing dictators or Islamic fundamentalists? And your preference is the dictator? Now that's hardly a politically correct preference for a long-time leftist.

I still have some faith in the sanity of the majority of Rebel fighters, that they want a better world for themselves and their families, and one that is essentially more democratic and a part of the Western world. But, I agree that they will have to fight hard to achieve that, and to prevent their revolution being captured by the Islamic fundamentalists.

But feel free to cheer for Gahdafi and what's left of his loyal followers. Hell, why not fly to Tripoli and join them in their bunker. (Well, that's an uncharacteristically ignoble remark; apologies in advance!)

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 01:49 PM

No offense taken Charley, I am not completely without humour.

I am certainly not a "politically correct" and a choice between a dictator like Fidel or Gadaffi and the Islamists would be no contest in my book.
As I've said a hundred times Gadaffi was reasonably good to his people ....but he did not suit the West or the fundamentalists...too much of a loose canon and difficult to control,so we have trumped up a reason the kill him and the thousands who support him.
They say that 70% of the population of Tripoli supports Gadaffi, are we going to bomb the insurgents to stop what may be a slaughter by the rebels,or do supporters of the Col not qualify as human beings?

Anyway, "democracy" is finished, it was never real, simply another tool in the capitalist box...we are as free as we are allowed to be and that means keep your grubby hands off the system.

The thought police are at the door.....four years in jail for posting on facebook.....what a fucking joke, soon every protest movement will be hammered, then we will have "liberal" fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 09:07 AM

" they say 70%..."---delusional to the last, aren't you, Ake?    Whoever "they" are.    You maintain your record of people supporting your cause who know exactly what's happened in Muammar's closed society--but for some reason are themselves anonymous.    As I noted, your credibility is somewhat below zero.

Funny thing---you would have probably gotten the same "polling" result in Berlin around January 1945. Influenced by fear of the dictator?   Of course not.

Again the old question:    just how naive are you?



Meanwhile, it appears Charley may in fact win his latest bet.   I'll be only too happy to pay up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 12:37 PM

Always willing to entertain further bets, ante up!

And its heartening to see pressure ratcheted up on Syria's dictator (and his ruling generals), even if Syria doesn't have much oil. It's about time.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 04:04 PM

ake... I hate to say this... I agree with you. Fact is, and I have said it before, BP was just setting up ops in Libya and Quackdaddy got uppity so they threw cruise missiles around like nerf balls at a kidddy Bday party. If anyone thinks BP doesn't control the Brit and Yank military, well...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 05:07 PM

Why do you hate to agree with me gnu?
I'm happy that we see eye to eye on some things and not on others.
Makes for interesting discussions, it would be really boring here if everyone agreed.....no?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 08:22 PM

Yup. Well said, Ake.

But in the minds of those intent on total domination of either a conversation or a general political climate, all disagreement with their chosen point of view is considered intolerable...contemptible...evil...worthy of ridicule and every form of destructive personal attack upon the speaker. Beware of such people. It is as Caesar said of Cassius, they are lean and hungry men, and their intentions toward you are quite merciless...unless, of course, you agree with them on every single point.

Such angry men have made this forum, frankly, simply not worth wasting much of one's time on when it comes to discussing things like politics. Or religion. Or anything else that they have decided to make into their own personal hobby horse of hatred, summary judgement, and self-righteous fury.

And having said that...I shall vanish once more to other much more pleasant things I could be doing and avoid undesired contact with said lean and hungry men.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 11:01 PM

"if anybody thinks BP doesn't control" the US and UK militaries....

So now we have the classic leftist paranoid theory.    This must be Mudcat.

Gee, all we need is some actual evidence.    But making knowing--but amazingly sloppy---generalizations is so much more fun.

And some of the usual suspects can pat each other on the back, telling each other how brilliant they are.

Blissfully free from any need to actually provide an iota of proof.   

Situation normal.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 11:07 PM

As I've noted before, no wonder folkies' grasp of strategic thinking is so admired in the wider world.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 12:12 PM

There is obvious evidence that can be established by just looking at the solutions.
In Egypt, today, the big mistake was to hand over the country to the military who are incapable of governing in a democracy. The Egyptian people are still fighting for their rights.

Bombing Gadaffi or Tripoli will ensure that some ruler will come in and replace the present administration with something equally tyrannical. Tell me how well this bombing campaign has worked in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq?

In the meantime Assad slaughters his people. Saudi Arabia imprisons their people.
Bahrain on the verge of civil war between Sunni and Shia. Egypt fighting for its political life.

Here's a thought. Why not strengthen the role of the World Court, the Hague and the positive side of the UN to deal with this problem by stopping the support of bombing campaigns here in the US, by supporting institutions that encourage peaceful rather than military solutions? What happens when the Commander-in-Chief becomes the Conqueror-in-Chief?

The Republicans seem to want to extend the military budget with the notable exception of Ron Paul. This is the one and only area in which I can agree with him.

Let's see, WWI was supposed to be the war to end all wars. How's that working out for ya'?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 05:36 PM

From Al Jazeera

"Multiple blasts and gunfire' in Tripoli
Sustained gunfire and thuds were heard as witnesses reported fighting in some neighbourhoods of the Libyan capital.
Last Modified: 20 Aug 2011 20:30
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Multiple explosions rocked Tripoli on Saturday night and repeated anti-aircraft fire was seen streaking across the sky, a Reuters news agency reporter in the city said as witnesses reported fighting in some neighbourhoods of the Libyan capital.

Crowds of opponents of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi were in the streets and gunfire could be heard from multiple locations, two residents told Reuters.

Sustained gunfire and thuds were heard in the distance and residents of Tajoura, on Tripoli's eastern outskirts, reported clashes were under way.

Tripoli residents said fighting had also broken out in the eastern neighbourhoods of Soug Jomaa and Arada.

Gunfire erupted in central Tripoli after the break of the dawn-to-dusk fast of Ramadan.

Tripoli residents also received mobile phone text messages urging them to "go out into the streets to eliminate agents with weapons".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 05:56 PM

Ron... proof? Read a newspaper. Watch the TV. Listen to the radio. March in protests.

Oh, yeah. Cover yer ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 08:01 AM

Is endgame at hand?

From Al Jazeera:

"The zero hour has started. The rebels in Tripoli have risen up," said Abdel Hafiz Ghoga, vice-chairman of the NTC, in the eastern city of Benghazi.

"There is co-ordination with the rebels in Tripoli. This was a pre-set plan. They've been preparing for a while. There's co-ordination with the rebels approaching from the east, west and south," he said.

Ghoga said NATO warplanes were launching raids to distract Gaddafi's forces.

"The next hours are crucial. Many of their (pro-Gaddafi) brigades and their commanders have fled." He added.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 11:06 AM

There's nothing to gloat about here, as far as I'm concerned, but all reports indicate that Gadhafi's days are numbered small. Good rid-dens!

And I don't doubt that the major international oil companies -- European, those in the States, and China of course -- are rubbing their hands in glee.

But one can't predict whether the more democratic elements in the NTC will retain control or whether control will be seized by the "Islamic fundamentalists" or some dominant tribal entity or some general from Fairfax, Virginia. I don't think the former royal family will be invited back. Any betters out there?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 11:48 AM

The stated intent of the NTC is to hold free and fair elections. Hopefully their future governance will be decided by the people of Libya.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 11:58 AM

Not much time now to say anything.    But the rebels are "euphoric", I've read.    That's a dangerous state--easy to get overconfident.

To minimize loss of life, I don't see why they just don't blanket Tripoli with leaflets telling the inhabitants it is cut off from fuel and other supplies, put pressure on the Gaddafi regime to let anybody who wants to flee the city, and only after everybody is gone who wants to go, then attack.    The rebels are still not as well armed as Gaddafi's forces and the "cells" in the city are risking brutal retaliation if they rise up and are not able to link up with the rebels attacking from outside the city.

And NATO certainly can't treat Tripoli as Berlin was treated in 1945--until anybody who wants to leave is gone.

And for good measure, my suggestion of months ago to put a $10 million price on Gaddafi's head would still be an excellent move---and might still avoid huge casualties.

But a premature attack on Tripoli by the rebels would be a hideous tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 12:52 PM

TRIPOLI, Libya (AP, Aug 21) -- Libyan rebels captured a major military base that defends Moammar Gadhafi's stronghold of Tripoli as clashes and protests raged in the streets of the capital on Sunday. The tide of the 6-month-old civil war appeared to be turning quickly against the leader of more than four decades. As Associated Press reporter with the rebels rapidly advancing toward Tripoli saw them take over the base of the Khamis Brigade, 16 miles west of the capital. After a brief gunbattle, Gadhafi's forces fled what was once a major symbol of the regime's power. Gadhafi's 27-year-old son Khamis commands the 32nd Brigade, also known simply as the Khamis Brigade, one of the best trained and equipped units in the Libyan military. Inside the base, hundreds of rebels cheered wildly and danced, raising the rebel flag on the front gate of a large, gray wall enclosing the compound. They seized large stores of weapons, driving away with truckloads of whatever arms they could get their hands on. One of the rebels carried off a tube of grenades, while another carted off two mortars. Ahmed al-Ajdal, 27, a fighter from Tripoli, was loading up a truck with ammunition. "This is the wealth of the Libyan people that he was using against us", he said, pointing to his haul. "Now we will use it against him and any other dictator who goes against the Libyan people".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 02:29 PM

That's great that they have taken over the Khamis Brigade's base.   It should help to even the odds on armaments.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 02:49 PM

Here's the link to the Rebel capture of the base of the Khamis Brigade: click here for report!

News is now picking up speed.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 02:49 PM

I've been following live feeds for several hours, events are unfolding very radipdly. Here are some highlights:

"Tripoli security forces seem to have gone into meldown - they don't know if they are supposed to be supressing the citizens or protecting key sites or preventing ff entering the city and don't know which of their units remain loyal and which have switched sides or just plain melted away. Look to have been taken totally off guard while the TNC had this planned all along.

Result is patchy resistance but no cohesive action, as a result they are being overwhelmed despite all their heavy weaponry. Hopefully this will be over soon with the sheer momentum of events sweeping the last bastions of government security aside - please!"

@dovenews Libyan™ Major General #Albrani #Ashkal commandr of M'Hamed Maqrif battalion is appealing 2 the officers & soldiers 2 lay down their weapons by radio 56 seconds ago via web

@dovenews Libyan™ Major General #Albrani #Ashkal has defected on 20th May & informed #NTC but stayed with Gaddafi to help #FF41 seconds ago via web

@fieldproducer Neal Mann
Anybody listening... RT @robcrilly Fixer tells me Libyan radio is broadcasting appeals to rebels to back down.Sounds pretty desperate stuff

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 04:34 PM

History in the happening.

Anyone remember the Winter Palace?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 05:40 PM

Muammar Gaddafi's son, Saif Al-Islam has been captured and his presidential guard surrendered.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM

You're right Charley, sounds like it could be a Winter Palace type of situation.    Interesting, one of our stalwart Mucatters just recently told us 70% of the Tripoli population was still pro-Gaddafi. Of course he never did come up with any actual source, quote or evidence to back up his imaginative statement--as usual.

But it ain't over til...

And overconfidence can be very dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 06:03 PM

Watch history in the making live: http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 07:57 PM

Thanks, Bobad,   There obviously are already some districts in Tripoli under the control of the rebels--according to al-Jazeera.    And supposedly two of Gaddafi's sons have been captured.    But even if neither of these proves correct, if the news that they have captured a huge arms depot which formerly belonged to an elite Gaddafi unit proves correct, that in itself is a giant step forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 10:12 PM

Rebels are reported now in the central square of Tripoli, with major Gadhafi army units surrendering according to Al Jazeera: click here for report!

All sorts of rumors about Gahdafi's whereabouts. No doubt he fled to Venezuela months ago.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 10:42 PM

Under Kadafi, Moslems in north Libya were forbidden to kill blacks from south Libya. Kadafi built the most extensive irrigation network in the world for his country. He was about to provide every Libyan schoolchild with a computer.

Then the Brits and the CIA imported some al Qeada fighters into the country. Can't have nations succeeding unless they do it under the control of the World Bank. So al Qeada was brought in and the western media told us they were freedom fighters. Things went badly for the freedom fighters until the country's international funds (frozen) were turned over to them. They immediately used the funds as collateral for usurious loans from the World Bank--for the future of the people of Libya and all that. And then Hillary Clinton recognized the freedom fighters as the country's legitimate government. She gave them the keys to the Libyan embassy in Washington DC. Honest-to-god al Qeada terrorists now have an embassy (on Vigrinia Avenue, I think it is) in DC. And they're back to lynching blacks in the south, too.

Hopefully NATO will now loose its wrath on the villainous Windsor family. Bomb them out. Cut down their progeny one by one. That'll be some good sport, won't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 10:58 PM

No way will it be over by the end of August (unfortunately).    My concern is that it looks like it has to be over by the end of September, since some NATO powers have said they will only support the campaign through September. - Ron Davies. Oh dear....

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 11:17 PM

Gee, Peter, sorry it didn't drag on as long as you wanted, with NATO states eventually dropping out (some by the end of September)--and the rebels therefore losing.

Just think, you could have bet me a beer too and won.   I assure you that as I told Charley, I'm quite happy to lose my bet.

For one thing, the quicker it ends the less loss of life.

But perhaps that's not of concern to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:26 AM

"This is not the beginning of the end, merely the end of the beginning".......the axis continues to build nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 08:04 AM

32nd BRIGADE COMMANDER WAS SECRET OPPOSITION SUPPORTER:

Gaddafi forces of course remain, notably at major bases such as Sabha in the south, but there are unconfirmed reports that the Presidential Guard and all Government troops between Brega and Sirte have surrendered.

Many are surprised at the ease with which the Opposition coming from Zawiyah were able to travel so quickly into the western suburbs of Tripoli and to breach the crucial 32nd Brigade army base which had been charged with the defence of the capital.

However, it has emerged that the base commander, whose brother was executed by Gaddafi in an attempted coup to overthrow him in the 1980′s, had secretly defected to the Opposition.

At the crucial moment, as Opposition forces approached, he told his troops to lay down their arms and withdraw from the base. Without this there would have been a long and bloody fight.

It is also reported that the same base commander revealed the secret whereabouts of Saif Gaddafi who was hiding in a hotel in a holiday village complex in western Tripoli, thereby facilitating his arrest.

http://www.petercliffordonline.com/libya-2/

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 08:23 AM

bobad-

Interesting reports.

I'm not expecting anyone here who has faith in Col. Gadhafi to change their minds at this point, but evidently this thread has picked up a newly (july 7, 2011) cloned troll. Just what is needed to clear the air.

No doubt the Republicans (and FOX News) will still be critical of Obama's intervention, spending $1 billion to topple Gahdafi instead of the $1 trillion that GWB spent to topple Saddam. And I feel really sorry for all those who recently invested in oil futures.

On with the end game.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 04:31 PM

For one thing, the quicker it ends the less loss of life.

Courtesy of NATO mission creep, the rebel rabble have in fact won too soon. The NTC is nowhere near ready to run a country. Anarchy lies ahead, and continuing loss of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 05:09 PM

Peter-

"the rebel rabble have in fact won too soon"

Now that's a position that's really persuasive. Really, Peter, would you prefer this uncivil war to drag out for a year or more so as to "harden" the Rebels?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 05:56 PM

I rather liked the point raised that "It was all about oil" and that BP were in control of the British and US military, now let me see the Commander-in-Chief of the latter is who again?? Oh that's right a certain Barack Hussein Obama - perhaps gnu can tell us how great a subservient fan of BP Barack Obama is again.

All the chat about what may happen in Libya:

- It might turn Islamic Fundamantalist?

- It might be anti-western?

- It might sponsor international terrorism?

- It might develop WMD for use by said terrorist organisations?

Hey harbingers of doom Libya has been all of the above for bloody years and was very successfully contained in the past and can be again.

The very least we can do is allow them the freedom to decide for themselves what they want - It certainly was never Gaddafi.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 07:59 PM

Realpolitik

"As Libya edges towards a future without Muammar Gaddafi, the prospect of oil reserves are whetting the appetite of hungry industrial nations.

About 75 Chinese companies operated in Libya before the war, involving about 36,000 staff and 50 projects, according to Chinese media.

Russian companies, including oil firms Gazprom Neft and Tatneft, also had projects worth billions of dollars in Libya. Brazilian firms such as Petrobras and construction company Odebrecht were also in business there.
Italian oil company Eni led the charge back into Libya on Monday as rebels hailed the end of Muammar Gaddafi's rule and as traders watched for the return of Libyan crude to the market.

Gaddafi's fall will reopen the doors to Africa's largest oil reserves and give new players such as Qatar's national oil company and trading house Vitol the chance to compete forlucrative contracts, but rebels warned Russian and Chinese firms may be frozen out for failing to support the rebellion.

"We don't have a problem with Western countries like the Italians, French and UK companies. But we may have some political issues with Russia, China and Brazil," Abdeljalil Mayouf, information manager at Libyan rebel oil firm AGOCO, told Reuters."

The comment signals a potential setback for those countries which opposed tough sanctions on Gaddafi or pressed for more talks and would leave European and US companies to capture billions of dollars' worth of oil exploration and construction contracts in the OPEC member nation." [Reuters]

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 08:08 PM

I suspect that those who believed that ordinary Libyans benefited in major ways by Gadhafi's 41 year reign will be soon confronted with information about how the oil wealth was actually distributed, largely to his family and cronies. I don't expect them to change their opinions.

And the trains may have run on time...

Someone stop me before I begin the froth at the mouth.

Looks as if there is still some serious resistance in several neighborhoods in Tripoli.

And Gadhafi is still at large.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 02:38 PM

Charley, "catastrophic victory" as they call it - ie victory before the rebels are sufficiently organised to avoid a power vacuum - is a problem that NATO people were aware of and warning against, as reported in The (London) Times. I can't give you a link because I am not a subsciber to the online edition.

How well organised are the rebels so far? Not at all, if their farcical atempt to detain Gadaffi's sons is anything to go by. Here's a cut-and-paste for the BBC's live internet stream a few minutes ago:

Libya's former envoy to the UN, says the rebels had two of Col Gaddafi's sons in their custody but they managed to escape. "This is a popular revolution," said Ibrahim Dabbashi, who defected from Cold Gaddafi's government in February. The rebels "don't have any training in the field of security," Associated Press quoted him as saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 03:10 PM

Rebels cop Gaddafi's hat: video

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 03:44 PM

Peter K-

I was being snappish and apologize.

We really shouldn't rush to judgment on how well the National Transitional Council is able to carry out all its goals. Whatever is happening in Tripoli now will not be entirely resolved for a day or two, and the details remain confusion. The broad picture is quite clear: the Rebel forces are gaining more and more control over the city.

There are also reports from other parts of the country of Gadhafi forces in rapid retreat.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 04:44 PM

More reports after the successful capture of Gadhafi's compound: click here for report!

Now someone is going to complain that the Rebels didn't sweep up after themselves.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:20 PM

Night is falling in Tripoli. Do you know where your taxpayer money is?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:38 PM

"...perhaps gnu can tell us how great a subservient fan of BP Barack Obama is again."

I am not quite sure I understand. But, in any case, if you disagree with my hypothesis that BP and Shell and Kellogs and... control what happens... INCLUDING in the US government... good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 06:58 PM

"Do you know where your taxpayer money is?"

For those who are counting tax dollars:

Iraq "War of Liberation" = more than $1 trillion

Libya "War of Liberation" = about $1 billion

Of course Libya will take more money to rebuild the country's infrastructure but at least the Libyans have billions impounded in the States and in banks controlled by other Western powers that can be returned to the interim government.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:52 AM

That'll build a lotta mosques.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:19 AM

Mosques, churches, temples, whatever!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:29 AM

The foreign jouranalists are now free according to this report:

Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- Dozens of international journalists trapped in one of Tripoli's most glittering hotels for five days walked free Wednesday, ending what some were beginning to fear was a hostage situation.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 03:17 PM

Teribus... you fall asleep again? YES. I say, yet again, Beth and Bea and Juan and... are having cordials and relishing the fact that the USA's Barry B'y, and that Garge fellah before him, did what they were told to do by the largest corporations on earth.

Wait until The Gulf oil spill starts washing ashore in Britain. You think THIS was a good show. You ain't seen nuthin yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 05:36 PM

A couple of Tweets from Matthew Chance, a CNN journalist who was one of the one's trapped in the Rixos Hotel:

mchancecnn Matthew Chance
Crisis ended when #rixos gunmen realised that #Libya outside of hotel doors was no longer Libya of old. Handed us their guns & said "sorry."


mchancecnn Matthew Chance
In the end - felt sorry for guards. All they knew was Gadhafi's regime. Took them a while to realise it had crumbled. Remarkable transition.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:49 PM

"largest corporations on earth".    Don't you leftists ever read anything?    Or are you convinced that every rebel in Libya is also in the pay--or duped by--said corporations?    Why doesn't the idea of throwing off a tyrant's rule ever occur to you?

Especially since you leftists are such past masters at whining that the West always supports tyrants.

Now in Libya the West has aided the Libyans in toppling a tyrant.   But suddenly that's not what the brilliant minds on the Left had in mind after all.

Perhaps they are just determined to whine regardless of what the West does---they are card-carrying members of the "ain't it awful" club.    Regardless of what it is--ain't it awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 03:54 AM

Dont be silly Ron, Everyone knows the insurgents were a mixed crew, go back to the top of the thread and read it again.

Most people also knew that the Col could not win against Nato airpower.....his troops could not even fight without being bombed from 20,000 ft.

The important part is what happens next, in my view what happens in Egypt is the key and it is almost certain to be dominated by Muslim fundamentalists, through the organisation of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Soon we will have a strong Islamic axis containing Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Libya.....with many more waiting in the wings.
Why do you think the West are so hesitant to move in on Assad?

They are beginning to understand that they have been outflanked again.

Report on BBC today, that "human rights" are much worse the the new "democratic" Iraq than they were under Saddam.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 11:22 AM

Akenaton,

In Egypt the same people will be in charge as have been in charge since 1956 - The Army

Care to tell us what "Human Rights" existed in Iraq under Saddam Hussein?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 12:32 PM

They are apparently killing homosexuals and refusing to educate young girls.....the staus of women has certainly worsened since "democracy" was planted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 01:28 PM

And the human rights enjoyed under Saddam Hussein were??

Your preferred ruler of Iraq seems to have been a great favourite of both Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International as it appears they wrote so much about him and his regime, while he was in power.

Liked the consideration he showed for the citizens of Iraq during those busy and hectic elections, he prepared the ballot papers so that they didn't have to go to the trouble of marking them, all the people REALLY HAD TO DO was turn up and be registered as having voted otherwise things would go really pear-shaped for them, their immediate families and their relations.

Source please for girls being refused or forbidden education. You do not seem to have any problem with the other Arab countries killing homosexuals then? Islam as interpreted by certain Arab sects is not renown for being the most tolerant of religions, or hadn't you latched onto that fact yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 02:58 PM

Ron Davies... ""largest corporations on earth".    Don't you leftists ever read anything?    Or are you convinced that every rebel in Libya is also in the pay--or duped by--said corporations?    Why doesn't the idea of throwing off a tyrant's rule ever occur to you?

Especially since you leftists are such past masters at whining that the West always supports tyrants.

Now in Libya the West has aided the Libyans in toppling a tyrant.   But suddenly that's not what the brilliant minds on the Left had in mind after all.

Perhaps they are just determined to whine regardless of what the West does---they are card-carrying members of the "ain't it awful" club.    Regardless of what it is--ain't it awful."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM

You have rather answered your own question Teribus....be it in a rather insulting way. I have a large problem with anyone killing homosexuals or anyone else for that matter.

"Islam as interpreted by certain Arab sects is not renown for being the most tolerant of religions".....very true, and what are we in the process of doing in the Middle East and North Africa?
Helping to remove strong dictators who keep these people in line and replacing them with something much worse masquerading under the cloak of democracy.

Al Quaeda must be in hysterics over our stupidity and greed.

The allegations were reported on a BBC radio 4 piece early this morning......and the reduced status of women has been commented on regularly,in the aftermath of the Iraq conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 06:38 PM

Dunno what happened to that last post.... I'll try it again...

Ron Davies... ""largest corporations on earth".    Don't you leftists ever read anything?    Or are you convinced that every rebel in Libya is also in the pay--or duped by--said corporations?    Why doesn't the idea of throwing off a tyrant's rule ever occur to you?

Especially since you leftists are such past masters at whining that the West always supports tyrants.

Now in Libya the West has aided the Libyans in toppling a tyrant.   But suddenly that's not what the brilliant minds on the Left had in mind after all.

Perhaps they are just determined to whine regardless of what the

West does---they are card-carrying members of the "ain't it awful" club.    Regardless of what it is--ain't it awful."
*******************************************************************

Well, Ron, that's not what I said. I said that the US government is controlled by the large corporations and their representatives which are both owned by the British.

Now, can you quote any of my posts in which I said what you say I said? If you can, I will apologize. If not, well, I think you know by now what my comment will be to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 06:42 PM

Ake, the population of Libya have emphatically demonstrated that they do not share your admiration of their dictator.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:28 PM

Much as I've been cheering the Rebels on in this thread (because of Gadhafi and his gang of plunders), I'm also well aware that this revolution could go sour in a number of ways, and that international oil companies have the most to gain. But maybe, just maybe, there will be a miracle!

The situation in Libya is unique in some ways from the other Middle Easter countries that have had recent revolutions or are still in the throes of public protest and military repression. There will not be a strong professional military as in Egypt. There are oil resources and foreign Libyan funds that can be used to rebuild the country, unlike Egypt, Syria, or Yemen. There is a potential in Libya, as happened in Iraq, for tribal/religious divisions to squander the nation's resources. One hopes that a reconciliation policy that is broadly implemented by the National Transitional Council will keep that in check, but there are lots of feuds and grudges built up over a period of 41 years, not to mention hotheads and politically motivated fringe groups.

I would venture to guess that Libya will do better than Iraq in achieving full recovery in a much shorter period of time. Anyone out there who wants to call my bluff?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:51 PM

I would disagree that international oil firms have the most to gain.    The Libyan people have potentially the most to gain--especially after all that time under Gaddafi's klepto-regime. And quite a few of them seem to feel the same way.

They also have the best of chance of any state in the "Arab Spring" to make this possibility a reality--in large part due to their oil wealth, which can in fact fund a prosperous state in which the wealth does not all go to one family.

We'll see if this does happen, but the international community can in fact help.

Despite the classic --and typical--sour attitude of our dear friends on the Left. Who remind me above all of the Li'l Abner character, Joe Blllfitisk--who had a dark cloud following him wherever he went.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:52 PM

"the best chance"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 02:51 AM

I study the past, and attempt to deduce the future.

Islam does not sit easily with Western style "democracy".

But what we believe to be good for us, is not necessarily good for the rest of the world.....or our long term future.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 04:36 PM

Canadian made Aeryon Scout UAV being used in Libya; video

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 04:56 PM

So, Ronny boy... it APPEARS I owe you a... you know. Don't bother to apologize in future. It would be hollow, and for good reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 07:23 AM

The short life and cruel death of Libyan freedom fighter Izz al-Arab Matar

Booker prize-shortlisted Libyan novelist Hisham Matar writes movingly of how his cousin was killed by a sniper in Muammar Gaddafi's compound

Guardian article

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 10:57 AM

bobad-

There are many such compelling stories of such self-sacrifice, and some of haunting brutality as well.

Hope for reconciliation depends on the ability of the NTC to implement its stated policy. The desire for vengeance and/or plundering mitigates against such reconciliation.

Conditions in abandoned hospitals in Tripoli (not to mention elsewhere) are atrocious if anyone has the stomach to view such videos.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 11:19 AM

Indeed Charley, there are too many stories of scores being settled, extensive evidence of summary executions in the streets, and maybe more disconcerting stories about unlikely high percentages of black people killed in the streets (some here) to feel all is going to be well in Libya any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 11:48 AM

"....unlikely high percentages of black people killed in the streets"

You haven't heard about the mercenaries apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 11:59 AM

I have, I have also read the reports that there was a bit more going on under the guise of shooting mercenaries. 'Ethnic cleansing' was mentioned. I realise it's all the fog of war, it's disconcerting nonetheless, too often situations like this are used for settling old scores and so get in the way of any chance of reconciliation and getting the place back to a semblance of normality.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:03 PM

It won't easy but I have faith in the will of the Libyan people to build a democratic and civil society after 42 years of oppression.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:17 PM

There will be revenge attacks at some point, it is inevitable given the war of extermination that was launched against the people by Gaddafi. The surprising thing is that no one has found any evidence yet for it. This shows exceptional discipline on the part of the revolutionaries to avoid such actions thus far.

What we do have in spades is evidence of Gaddafi forces engaging in massacres in their last few hours of control.

The National Transitional Council has repeatedly warned the fighters against taking revenge against Gaddafi's fighters and only today announced that anyone caught doing so would be prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 02:54 PM

The video of the hospital was certainly convincing evidence that some 80 people in Tripoli had been shot and dumped there, or dumped there and shot later. The Rebels claim that Gahdafi supporters brought them in and ordered medical personnel out of the hospital.

But we really should resist the desire to rush to judgment with regard to who they were, who shot them, and why they were shot.

Or you could fly over there and do your own research. Good luck!

Gadhafi's home town of Sirte seems to be the current focus point of the Rebel mopping up operation. Hopefully the town will surrender.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 08:58 PM

This is a nice post for "900" commemorating as it does the recognition by the Arab League of the Rebel Victory in overthrowing Gadhafi (from Al Jazeera):

The Arab League has restored Libya's membership in the bloc, turning over the country's seat to the National Transitional Council (NTC), the rebels' political leadership.

The 22-member League suspended the country's membership in February in protest to Muammar Gaddafi's crackdown on demonstrators.

At a Saturday League session, Mahmoud Jibril, seen as the foreign minister of the National Transitional Council led the Libyan delegation in the meeting.

He urged the Arabs to help rebuild and stabilise his country and asked the League to help in unfreezing Libyan assets abroad.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 06:52 AM

How dictators' families live, part 2: video

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 08:03 AM

"Without NATO's help, it would have been much more difficult for the
opposition movement to be as successful as it has been. However, the
notion that the uprising in Libya is somehow just a Western plot to get
oil is not only a gross distortion of the truth; it is a huge slap in
the face to Libyans who have died fighting for freedom. Libyans started
the uprising. And Libya will soon be free not because of NATO or the US
but because of the continuous courage and steadfastness of the Libyan
people.

Moreover, Gaddafi supporters who attempt to portray the National
Transitional Council (NTC)— the Libyan "rebel government"—as a sellout
to Western imperialism completely ignore the fact that Gaddafi sold
himself to the West years ago."

Blog post.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 08:05 AM

"Lots of criticism from Gaddafi supporters about NATO's aim being 'regime change'.

All decent people, including NATO, want to see Gaddafi gone and his actions investigated, such as alleged theft of Libyan people's national wealth, alleged massacres in the 'peace years', alleged illegal imprisonment, alleged abuse of human rights, alleged support of international terrorism, alleged murder, etc.

But, helping the Libyan people to get rid of Gaddafi so they can investigate his alleged crimes is not regime 'change'. The people of Libya will be the ones who effect regime 'change' when they vote for a democratic government (they could always vote for Gaddafi of course!).

So, Gaddafi supporters, the real target of your criticsim should be the people of Libya. You should be criticising them for wanting to be free from a tyrant and from the fear of persecution and murder they have endured for decades. Your position really is THAT ridiculous. Rather than attacking change, please spend some time explaining to us all why the Libyan people would be better living in fear.

The biggest irony is, of course, that if you were exercising your freedom to criticise Gaddafi in his Libya you would be seeing the inside of Abu Salim prison by now (if you were lucky)."

Blog post

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 10:23 AM

This is a blog.....of sorts.

I stand by everything I have said here, regime change by force by foreign power is wrong, and forms a precedent to alter the regime in any country on earth

Phrases like to "save civilian life" uttered by the West are hollow words, given our history in foreign affairs.

We moved in like vultures for personal gain and have handed Libya to the Islamists, just as we have done with Iraq.

Just keep watching Egypt you do-gooders!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 01:40 PM

The Algerian foreign ministry has just confirmed that Safiya (wife), Aysha, Hannibal and Mohamed Gaddafi entered Algeria at 08:45 am.

Sky News reporting Khamis in a Land rover hit by Hellfire missile ...... Remains being taken away to be tested.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 02:08 PM

Muammar Gaddafi's wife Safia, his daughter Aisha, and his sons Hannibal and Mohammed,are now in Algeria.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 02:10 PM

Muammar Gaddafi has now joined his family in Algeria.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 02:20 PM

Muammar Gaddafi and his sons Saadi and Seif al-Islam are in the town of Bani Walid south of Tripoli, Italian news agency ANSA said Monday, citing "authoritative Libyan diplomatic sources". ANSA...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 03:54 PM

Well, you got to give the old man credit. He does get around.

This report from Al Jazeera today:

Muammar Gaddafi's second wife, two of his sons and his daughters have entered Algeria, according to the Algerian foreign ministry.

"The wife of Muammar Gaddafi, Safia, his daughter Aisha, and sons Hannibal and Mohammed, accompanied by their children, entered Algeria at 08:45am local time [0745GMT] through the Algeria-Libyan border," the ministry said in a statement on Monday published by the APS news agency.

However, it gave no information on the toppled Libyan leader, whose whereabouts has remained a mystery since rebels seized control of Tripoli, the Libyan capital, last week.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 10:27 AM

An opinion piece by Elizabeth Pickworth, a journalist from Australia with a postgraduate degree in International Security majoring in Counterterrorism. She is currently based in the Gulf and undertaking research for her PhD. It questions the support for Gaddafi's regime by people who live outside of Libya and the role played by social networking sites in this support.

An excerpt:

"This leads me to question, how can people who have never lived in exile or fear from such a brutal regime support such a monstrous dictator?

To support Gaddafi's regime without ever thoroughly researching the history, his human rights violations and the plight of the Libyan people, is to entirely discredit every single Libyan of their history and struggle.

The people of Libya have risen up and controlled their own destiny, not relied on a dictator to determine their fate. For this they should be commended. Their struggle for freedom has been a bloody battle but now they can claim back their home.

I question if social networking sites were around during the Rwandan and Bosnian genocide or the time of Maoist China, would the narrative be any different and would so many members of the online community still blindly follow such a brutal dictatorship?"

http://english.libya.tv/?p=11257

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 08:18 AM

The search for Gadhafi and his sons continues with a confusion of reports, this one from Al Jazeera:

A senior National Transitional Council official in Libya has told Al Jazeera that Saadi Gaddafi, the third son of deposed leader Muammar Gaddafi, is willing to give himself up.

Abdelhakim Belhaj, the NTC's military leader in Tripoli, said on Wednesday that Saddi called him and asked if he could surrender.

In an exclusive interview, Belhaj said the revolutionaries knew for sure where some of the regime leaders were, including unconfirmed reports on where Gaddafi was.

"Gaddafi is now fleeing - and we have a good idea where he is," Ali Tarhouni, a senior NTC minister said earlier, without elaborating. "We don't have any doubt that we will catch him."


There has been speculation that Gaddafi is seeking refuge in Sirte or one of the other remaining regime strongholds, among them the towns of Bani Walid or Sabha.

Al Jazeera's James Bays, reporting from Tripoli said: "We asked him [Belhaj] about the military situation, remaining members of the Gaddafi family, and he said that he believes one of Gaddafi's sons, Saadi, is preparing to surrender.

"According to Belhaj, Saddi doesn't want to leave Libya, he wants to talk to the national council and negotiate his surrender. He thinks he knows the whereabouts of Saddi Gaddafi from the phone call. Also says he believes some senior figures of the government are now ready to surrender, such as the former prime minister.

"Belhaj made a point of saying that any of those who do surrender will be treated properly, and court cases will be held to international norms. Belhaj thought that Muammar Gaddafi is less likely to surrender, but would be treated fairly if he did. He would be held in custody with proper human rights."

But "my sources" confirm that Gadhafi fled to Venezuela at least a month ago.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 08:52 AM

Information from an "insider":

"daffi and the poor remaining gang stuck in his big underground compound outside sebha.deepest point 190m with two underground heli hangars and a lot of equippment
two scenarios possible
he try to escape in the next days,he need a lot of luck then.
he fight to the end ,that i prefer."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 09:53 AM

Amnesty International : Black Libyans and Sub Saharan Africans at high risk of abuse by Anti Ghadaffi forces

Claudio Cordone, senior director at Amnesty International, said:

    Amnesty International witnessed one man being hit and one dragged out of his hospital bed to an unknown fate. We have to fear for what may be happening to detainees out of the sight of independent observers.

    The NTC must do more to ensure that their fighters do not abuse detainees, especially the most vulnerable ones such as black Libyans and Sub-Saharan Africans" said Claudio Cordone.

    Fighters engaging in abuses should be immediately removed from active duty, pending investigation. All crimes, no matter who committed them, should be investigated and those responsible brought to justice.

From The Guardian, live reports 1.43

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 10:27 AM

There will be revenge attacks at some point, it is inevitable given the war of extermination that was launched against the people by Gaddafi. The surprising thing is that no one has found any evidence yet for it. This shows exceptional discipline on the part of the revolutionaries to avoid such actions thus far.

What we do have in spades is evidence of Gaddafi forces engaging in massacres in their last few hours of control.

The National Transitional Council has repeatedly warned the fighters against taking revenge against Gaddafi's fighters and only today announced that anyone caught doing so would be prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:28 PM

"War of extermination".....give us a break !

We facilitated the "war", without our intervention the protests would have been over long ago, with almost no loss of life.

We have cost Libya an estimated 50,000 dead, an infrastructure in ruins, years of tribal conflict and the promise of a "democratic" Islamic Republic to come.

Haven't we done well!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:45 PM

Congressman Dennis Kucinich and and David Welch, the former assistant secretary of state who served under George W Bush and the man who brokered the deal which restored diplomatic relations between the US and Libya in 2008 are implicated in documents found at Gaddafi's spy HQ in Tripoli.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/08/2011831151258728747.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:47 PM

Congressman Dennis Kucinich and and David Welch, the former assistant secretary of state who served under George W Bush and the man who brokered the deal which restored diplomatic relations between the US and Libya in 2008 are implicated in documents found at Gaddafi's spy HQ in Tripoli.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/08/2011831151258728747.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:58 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:24 AM

I totally disagree with this action.
If there was consistency about american and european interference in other countries internal affairs, it might be more acceptable, but in truth the west does not care one iota about dictators killing their citizens, if they did they would have acted against Mugabe in Zimbabwe,The leader of the Yemen, Pinochet in Chile[ 30 YEARS OR SO AGO].
the west has tolerated gaddaffi for 40 years because it suited them, they do not care a fig about the people of libya
seems I was right

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 08:17 AM

'There will be revenge attacks at some point, it is inevitable given the war of extermination that was launched against the people by Gaddafi. The surprising thing is that no one has found any evidence yet for it. This shows exceptional discipline on the part of the revolutionaries to avoid such actions thus far.'

Amnesty International was pretty clear in it's assessment. Today the European Commission released this press release, also warning that black Libyans need protection and noting atrocities on both sides.

It's about time Ghadaffi was ousted but lets at least acknowledge that any of our governments' response to a similar armed uprising at home would have been equally untidy. And rebels would not have been able to make any sort of a stand if Nato (and some Arab states) hadn't stepped in. Thirdly, war is an ugly business, let's not pretend the atrocities are all coming from the one side. Both Amnesty and the EU's call for all those responsible for summary executions and other atrocities to be held accountable is a valid and reasonable position that will help post war healing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 09:21 AM

Akenaton-

"without our intervention the protests would have been over long ago, with almost no loss of life."

Now that's a rosy-colored assumption.

But if it brings comfort to you, so be it.

Wonder what how the Libyans assess the situation now that the major battles appear over and done with.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 03:55 PM

Charley.....do you really think the type of government we are likely to see in Libya will be worth the loss of life and destruction?

The Libyan people are not one homogenous body, but many diverse groupings.....their views on Libya's future are likely to be just as diverse.

Only one thing binds them together.....Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM

akenaton-

Some like to argue from a "relative body count" and you gave that a brave try, leaving yourself wide open to being accused of naivety. I personally don't think you're that naive but I can't resist challenging your assertion. Want to wage another round of beer?

Oh, and according to Al Jazeera the Rebels are giving Gadhafi loyalists an extra week to lay down their arms:

The council, known by its acronym NTC, has extended the deadline for surrender of Gaddafi's last bastion Sirte by one week, Mohammad Zawawi, an NTC spokesman, said on Thursday.

"We are not in a rush to get in to Sirte. It has no economic importance and we are not going to lose casualties for it. We can cut supplies and wait, even more than a week," he said.

The talks come alongside a blockade of supplies to the town, an NTC official said.

Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdul Hamid, reporting from Nawfalia east of Sirte, said: "This is the consequence of ongoing talks between NTC leaders and tribal leaders in Sirte and another nearby town Harawa.


"The idea is to give time to negotiations which is going on between the tribes in Sirte."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 10:28 PM

American college kid joins Libya rebels for 'vacation' "Just thought I'd come check it out, dudes"

Article

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 02:43 AM

If Col Gadaffi had attempted to do such a thing in Benghazi, his soldiers would have been blown to pieces by NATO air strikes.

Is starving people out not a crime? What about the civilians?

Its all a sick joke......Line up for your oil contracts!

ut these "rights" can be withdrawn as quickly as they are granted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 03:20 AM

But these "rights" can be withdrawn as quickly as they are granted.

Very true, which is why the It was all about the oil argument is so ridiculous whether it be Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 09:16 AM

akenaton-

"If Col Gadaffi had attempted to do such a thing in Benghazi, his soldiers would have been blown to pieces by NATO air strikes."

I guess that is your way of gracefully conceding that NATO intervention was essential for saving lives? As I recall Gadhafi's soldiers had actually done several forays into Benghazi before the NATO air strikes rolled them back.

But I do agree that there is no guarantee that the government that emerges from the present civil war in Libya will be much of an improvement. But it's a start, a resetting in what I hope is a general trend toward more participatory government worldwide.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:00 AM

"blown to pieces"

Wrong again.   Do you ever think? Airstrikes are a very blunt tool, above all since NATO was trying hard to avoid civilian casualties.    Made especially difficult since Gaddafi had taken to having his soldiers wear the same non-uniforms as the rebels.

And Gadhafi had no problem with such things as putting children on tanks he wanted to protect.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 11:41 AM

If anyone wants to see some of what was going on behind the scenes by Gadhafi's spying network, there's now a wealth of new information captured and being accessed by Rebels and the media in Tripoli (Al Jazeera): click here for report!

I find these reports fascinating.

Here's the teaser quote:

"Deposed Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi had spies at the highest levels of the rebel movement at least until the fall of Tripoli, according to a top-secret document that appears to be a briefing for Libyan intelligence mastermind Abdullah Senussi."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 06:01 PM

Charley, you might like this:

By Associated Press, Published:
August 24BENGHAZI, Libya — They called it Operation Mermaid Dawn, a stealth
plan coordinated by sleeper cells, Libyan rebels, and NATO to snatch the
capital from the Moammar Gadhafi's regime's hands.

It began three months ago when groups of young men left their homes in Tripoli
and traveled to train in Benghazi with ex-military soldiers.

"They went back to Tripoli and waited; they became sleeper cells,"
said military spokesman Fadlallah Haroun, who helped organize the operation.

Operation Mermaid Dawn began on the night of August 21 and took the world by
surprise as the rebels sped into the capital and celebrated in Green Square
with almost no resistance from pro-Gadhafi forces.

Haroun said about 150 men rose up from inside Tripoli, blocking streets,
engaging in armed street fights with Gadhafi brigades, and taking over their
streets with check points.

He said another 200 men were from Misrata.

But why did the armed Gadhafi troops melt away when the rebels drove through?

Fathi Baja, head of the rebel leadership's political committee, said it was all
thanks to a deal cut with the head of the batallion in charge of protecting
Tripoli's gates, the Mohammed Megrayef Brigade.

His name was Mohammed Eshkal and he was very close to Gadhafi and his family.
Baja said Gadhafi had ordered the death of his cousin twenty years ago.

"Eshkal carried a grudge in his heart against Gadhafi for 20 years, and he
made a deal with the NTC — when the zero hour approached he would hand the city
over to the rebels," said Haroun.

"Eshkal didn't care much about politics" said Haroun. "He wanted
to take a personal revenge from Gadhafi and when he saw a chance that he will
fall, he just let it happen."

Haroun said that he didn't trust any of the defectors who left Gadhafi's side
so close to August 20, but Eshkal was living for the day he could pay back
Gaddafi..

Haroun said NATO was in contact with the rebel leadership in Benghazi and were
aware of the date of Operation Mermaid Dawn.

"Honestly, NATO played a very big role in liberating Tripoli — they bombed
all the main locations that we couldn't handle with our light weapons,"
said Harouin.

Analysts have noted that as time went on, NATO airstrikes became more and more
precise and there was less and less collateral damage, indicating the presence
of air controllers on the battlefields.

Targeted bombings launched methodical strikes on Gadhafi's crucial
communications facilities and weapons caches. An increasing number of American
hunter-killer drones provided round-the-clock surveillance as the rebels
advanced.

Diplomats acknowledge that covert teams from France, Britain and some East
European states provided critical assistance.

The assistance included logisticians, security advisers and forward air
controllers for the rebel army, as well as intelligence operatives, damage
assessment analysts and other experts, according to a diplomat based at NATO's
headquarters in Brussels. The diplomat spoke on condition of anonymity due to
the sensitivity of the issue.

Foreign military advisers on the ground provided key real-time intelligence to
the rebels, enabling them to maximize their limited firepower against the
enemy. One U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss
intelligence matters, said the Qatari military led the way, augmented later by
French, Italian and British military advisers. This effort had a multiple
purpose, not only assisting the rebels but monitoring their ranks and watching
for any al-Qaida elements trying to infiltrate or influence the rebellion.

Bolstering the intelligence on the ground was an escalating surveillance and
targeting campaign in the skies above. Armed U.S. Predator drones helped to
clear a path for the rebels to advance.

Baja said as the time for Operation Mermaid Dawn came close to execution, NATO
began to intensify their bombing campaign at Bab al-Azizya and near jails where
weapons were stored and political prisoners were held.

And then the people rose up

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 10:44 AM

bobad-

That is the kind of detail I love to gain access to. The report helps make sense out of what appears to be chaos.

It's a miracle that Operation Mermaid Dawn wasn't compromised by spies within the Rebel command. Bet there were some close calls.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 07:52 AM

For those who steal admire Gadhafi's "socialist utopia", you might want to review (or not) some of the correspondence between his security chief and the CIA and M-16 that have been collected from his abandoned office in Tripoli by Human Rights Watch (from Al Jazeera): click here for update!

Here's a teaser quote:

Documents found in the abandoned Tripoli office of Muammar Gaddafi's former foreign minister and intelligence chief indicate that US and British spy agencies helped his regime persecute Libyan dissidents, Human Rights Watch said.

The documents were uncovered by the human rights activist group in abandoned offices once occupied by Moussa Koussa, one of Gaddafi's closest associates who left Libya for the UK in February as the uprising against the now-toppled Libyan leader began.

The group said on Saturday it had uncovered hundreds of letters between the US's Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the UK's MI6 secret service and Koussa, who is now believed to be in Qatar.

But, hey, Gadhafi kept the trains running on schedule!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 08:13 AM

Charley, take a look at this spellbinding account from one of Gaddafi's "nuns", one of his cadre of female attendants cum bodyguards as she unburdens herself after 30 years of servitude to him: http://www.universalsubtitles.org/en/videos/2MRUQmTBXeld/

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 03:11 AM

Now the truth of our involvement is beginning to surface, both the US and the UK were assisting the Col in supressing Islamism in Libya...rendition, torture etc.

They quickly sussed which way the wind was blowing after Moubarik fell in Egypt and jumped ship, hoping to curry favour with the new Islamist controlled regime, to safeguard oil rights...So much for altruism!!....It wont work, these people used us against their enemy Col Gadaffi and soon we will be booted out.

What a shower of fucking simpletons!
As I said earlier, we hae been completely outflanked

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 07:41 AM

Well Ake, maybe if your self titled Col. was not such a bloodthirsty, murderous, thieving bastard his people may not have felt compelled to get rid of him. These despots never do learn much from history do they.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 10:53 AM

akenaton-

Gadhafi played everyone to his benefit, until the end-game. I would think that you'd get that.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 03:41 PM

I dont care about Gadaffi and his regime Charley, its what our "murderous bastards" are up to that bothers me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 03:51 PM

akenaton-

Well, I guess that's your graceful way of conceding he wasn't the most progressive despot in the world. I'll accept that.

So when should we release our "murderous bastards" to do their bloody work? Would you suggest Syria?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 04:07 PM

Well now, THIS is a surprising turn of events. MY preface to this is that BP started all this shite (as some of you know from reading my posts) because of their problems in the Gulf Oil Spill and the fact that Quackdaffy wouldn't let them renegotiate the contract so they made a deal elsewhere to usurp Quackdaffy and... you know.

BUT, this really floors me... kinda made me smile a tad even tho maybe it it NOT good...

TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Libya's new leadership has evidence Muammar Gaddafi bought arms from companies in China and Western countries in defiance of U.N. sanctions and now plans legal and diplomatic action, a military spokesman said in Tripoli on Monday.

"We'll be going through legal channels, through international courts, as well as the United Nations itself," Abdul Rahman Busin told Reuters. "Either to prosecute them or to come to a diplomatic understanding."

He did not specify further what action might be taken against firms, individuals or states involved in any smuggling.

"We have gathered evidence from many sources, including the main documents that were gathered here in Tripoli, that point the finger at several countries that had been supplying Gaddafi with weapons and arms, as well as intelligence officers," he said.

"They had their own mercenaries who were helping them, but whether the mercenaries were directly linked to governments or (were) private individuals is still unclear," Busin added.

Earlier on Monday, China responded to the publication by a newspaper of documents that appeared to show Chinese state firms offered Gaddafi weaponry by confirming some staff had met Libyan envoys in July but without the government's knowledge.

"We've been gathering information for months now," Busin said. He declined to name the nationalities of those suspected of trying to supply Gaddafi but confirmed some were Chinese and that the proposed route for imports passed through Algeria.

Asked if Westerners also offered arms, he said they did.

It was unclear whether any Chinese weapons reached Libya.

Busin said: "The documentation ... specified the quantities, amounts, types and the route for it to come in, which was through Algeria.

"The total price of the actual order was near $200 million," he added, saying it included arms that are familiar from the Libyan war, including ammunition, pistols, automatic rifles, rocket-propelled grenades, mortar rounds and rockets.

"It was a very long list," he said.

"NO DISCRIMINATION"

Asked which firms were involved in selling weapons to Gaddafi, he said he did not know but believed it would be possible to identify them: "We don't actually have a list of companies. But there are only so many companies in the world that produce arms still. That narrows it down quite a lot."

A key issue for China and other countries which did not join the Western-led drive to support the uprising in Libya is whether the new authorities may penalise them in the awarding of oil and reconstruction contracts.

Asked whether revelations of arms sales could cost any countries deals, Busin said that would be for others to say.

Other officials have said that Libya's new authorities would work with any governments which now supported them.

Aref el-Nayed, a senior NTC official and director of a unit known as the Libyan Stabilisation Team, told Reuters on Monday that this would remain the policy:

"Free Libya is keen on great relations with all of humanity," he said. "Different countries had different attitudes towards the Gaddafi regime. The NTC will not be discriminatory because of this."

He added: "China is a very important member of the international community and we look forward to great relations with China and we look forward to great relations with Russia and all other countries. What is important is that all countries have now entered this consensus (supporting the NTC) and it is from this baseline that we will build our relations."

(Writing by Alastair Macdonald; editing by Myra MacDonald)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 04:13 PM

No, things are never what they seem, and our biggest danger is in the construction of an Islamist axis in the middle East and North Africa.In Libya they are already positioning themselves.

Our murderous bastards are not THAT stupid.

I never said that the Col was a perfect leader of his people, just slightly better than the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 08:57 AM

Here's another "hat trick" being exercised by Gadhafi. A large armored convoy of military vehicles has been reported as having crossed into Niger (Al Jazeera): click here for update!

"Monday's convoy included officers from Libya's southern army battalions and pro-Gaddafi Tuareg fighters, and likely crossed from Libya into Algeria before entering Niger, the sources said."

It's unclear whether Gadhafi or his sons are in this convoy but it is currently being escorted through the country by Niger army units toward the border of "Burkina Faso, a landlocked West African state which has offered Gaddafi and his family asylum."

The remaining question: who is making and producing the blockbuster film?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 05:48 PM

Charley, this article from Reuters gives more insider, behind the scenes details of the planning and execution of Operation Mermaid Dawn, well worth a read: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/06/us-libya-endgame-idUSTRE7853C520110906

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 08:17 PM

Having been an avid reader of "Spy vrs. Spy" in Mad Magazine, I'm beginning to wonder if the CIA/MI-6 aren't executing a sting operation in the Niger.

As the Gadhafi loyalists cross the border, they're harvested by the CIA Niger agents, along with their swag, and "encouraged" to call their friends still in Libya to join the party.

I'm probably giving the CIA/MI-6 too much credit.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 09:07 AM

Gaddafi is surrounded, says the new Council.    40 mile radius.   They would not say where in Libya he is, but it is in Libya.    Source:   AP 7 Sept 2011.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 12:20 PM

France will now be able to get 35 per cent of libyas oil, what a surprise..COULD THIS REALLY BE WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT, the west tolerated gaddaffi for 40 years, the west does not go in and interfrere in zimbabwe, why.. no oil

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 10:51 PM

That Gadhafi is trapped may be more wistful thinking on the part of the Rebels, or disinformation, or there may be some truth to their belief (from Al Jazeera):

Libyan fighters are claiming to have surrounded Muammar Gaddafi within a 60km radius and insist it is matter of time before the toppled leader is captured or killed.

Anis Sharif, a spokesman for Tripoli's new military council, however would not say where exactly Gaddafi had been found.

But amid the continuing hunt for the fugitive leader and his sons, he said Gaddafi had been tracked using high technology and human intelligence. "He can't get out," he said on Wednesday.

Gaddafi, who was removed from power in August after an uprising against his rule, is believed to be travelling in a convoy of about 10 cars and may be using a tent as shelter, Hisham Buhagiar, who is co-ordinating the National Transitional Council's [NTC] efforts to find the former Libyan leader, said.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 10:54 PM

Thank you, Mr. Broken Record.

For the n'th time, Gaddafi was always more than willing to sell Libya's oil.

So your argument, yet again, is bankrupt.

What a surprise.

Perhaps you'd like to return to folk music.   The chances are rather good you know more about that than about foreign policy.    That is, more than zero.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 10:55 PM

That was of course in response to "35%" etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 02:48 AM

Ron....It is a tangled web, and not as simple as you suppose.

Western nations, especially the UK, were up to their necks in supporting The Col in his battle agaianst Islamic extremists.....In return for this support they were granted some rights over Libyan Oil.    Rights to help in developement and rights to purchase.

Their support included security information on dissidents in the West and the supply of suspects for "rendition" and torture.

After the "Arab Spring" uprisings in Egypt etc, the British and French governments realised that they were about to be exposed and took the view that they would assist in the removal of Gadaffi in an attemped to ingratiate themselves with the new regime and retain the "rights" they so badly need.

Unfortunately this was rather shortsighted, as we now have the spectre of Islamism all over the area and in all probability these "rights" will be used by the Islamists as bargaining chips in the future.

Basically, we are fucked!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM

Hope for a moderate future in Libya:

"What we know of the top rebel leadership is also reasonably encouraging.
Mahmoud Jibril, the acting prime minister of the rebels' Transitional
National Council, earned his doctorate from the University of Pittsburgh
and taught there, too. As for Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, the acting chairman
of the council, he is a former justice minister who challenged Colonel
Qaddafi by calling for the release of political prisoners. Ali Tarhouni,
the finance minister, is a former economist at the University of
Washington.

Some Americans have fretted that Islamic
extremists will take over Libya, but very few of the rebel leaders have
been associated with Islamic fundamentalism. One exception is Abdel
Hakim Belhaj, a military commander in Tripoli, who says he was tortured
by the CIA in 2004. Yet he told my Times colleague Rod Nordland that all
is forgiven and that he appreciates the American role in the Libyan
revolution.

Frankly, any representative Libyan government
needs to include fundamentalists like Mr. Belhaj, who were particularly
brave in standing up to the Gaddafi regime. The mood in Libya is both
pro-Islam and pro-Western."

Nicholas Kristof
NY Times

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 08:11 AM

Again from Nicholas Kristof:

"What's particularly impressive is the paucity of revenge killings and
looting in Tripoli, the capital. There have been a few incidents in
which rebel soldiers apparently executed prisoners, and black Africans
have been treated abysmally (they are accused of being mercenaries for
Colonel Muammar Gaddafi). But the Libyans who served in that hated
regime mostly have not been molested.

I saw many Libyans
fleeing for Tunisia, and, presumably, many of them were Gaddafi
loyalists. But rebels did not hinder them at checkpoints or pilfer their
belongings. And, as far as I could tell, the homes and luxury vehicles
the loyalists left behind have been mostly untouched by neighbors and
rebels alike.

In addition, I went through dozens of armed
rebel checkpoints and was never once asked for a "baksheesh," meaning
bribe or gift.



Finding hope in Libya - an eyewitness account"




by NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 09:44 AM

I'm still mulling over the possibilities of a screen play based on the fleeing armored column of Gadhafi loyalists sinking into the sands of the Niger desert. Where is Shakespeare when we need him? Where are Bertolt Brecht and Kurt Weill?

Oh, well, back to CNN and Al Jazeera.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 12:23 PM

"Debating" with leftists is shooting fish in a barrel.


"interfrere (sic) in zimbabwe (sic)"

Absolutely, that's bound to be a big hit in Africa--a white military force interfering in a black African country.

Ever heard of Rhodesia?    Know what it's called these days?

Again the old question:   are you leftists capable of thinking at all?

To put it gently:   perhaps you should go back to folk music and leave international relations to those who believe in using their heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 01:26 PM

At a news conference in Tripoli, the recently arrived Mahmoud Jibril, NTC executive committee chairman, said:

    "What Libyans have accomplished is an unprecedented achievement in recent history. However, our biggest challenges are still ahead of us. The first challenge is to win against ourselves. The second challenge is the ability to forgive and to reconcile and look for the future."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 05:53 PM

Oh, I'd agree that "zimbabwe" is also a case for intervention and attempts have been made to do that without using armed force. However, the Organization of African Unity needs to be on board and they are reluctant to do so. Not one of the neighboring countries is willing to take a lead role.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 10:18 PM

Problem is the poster in question was querying why we used military force in Libya, but would not in Zimbabwe.    As I said, the use of a white military force in Zimbabwe might just possibly not be applauded by black Africa.

Unless, as Charley pointed out, you can get a multinational black African force to sanction it.

Good luck on that.

As the Good Soldier should know if he thought more than 2 seconds about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 07:36 AM

"Rebel officials have said for months that they would try to avoid the mistakes made in Iraq after Saddam Hussein was overthrown, when United States officials disbanded the military and barred all former members of the ruling Baath Party - many of Iraq's most experienced professionals - from working in any public-sector job.

Instead, the Libyan rebels said, they will seek retribution, in a courtroom, against only the most notorious Qaddafi government officials, those who oversaw torture or killings, egregiously enriched themselves or, in the case of the captured television host Hala Misrati, led the propaganda war on state television.

The rebel leaders pledged to welcome back most of the bureaucrats and other midlevel functionaries, and so far, former senior officials of Colonel Qaddafi's government say the provisional government appears to be keeping its word. To underscore that point, the rebel leadership held a ceremony on Tuesday to hand control of a major natural gas plant to the same manager who was responsible for its security under Colonel Qaddafi.

"There are very few instances of revenge," said Abdulmajeed el-Dursi, the former chief of the Qaddafi-era foreign media operation, sipping coffee at a cafe full of rebels and talking about opening a media services company.

"It is legitimate, all these things they are doing - freedom of the press, the rule of law," Mr. Dursi added. "We always thought it was the right thing to do."

Officials at the rebels' detention centers around the city say they have sent scores of Colonel Qaddafi's former soldiers and supporters back to their homes after they have turned in their weapons, and even some of the former soldiers now insist that they are revolutionaries at heart."

www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/world/africa/08tripoli.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 10:42 PM

So, Ake, Western governments "realized they were about to be exposed" so decided to topple Gaddafi.

Well, that's a different theory, anyway. Nobody can accuse you of lack of imagination.

Too bad about the lack of sense, logic, evidence etc. And for some reason you left out the inconvenient element that huge numbers of his own people wanted to get rid of him--and can hardly wait til he is captured and has to account for his cruel and kleptocratic regime.

But I suppose we can't have everything.

Logic, evidence, etc. never was the strong suit of the pro-Gaddafi posters.

And absurd theories are always more fun for them, it seems, than coming to terms with the fact that Muammar never was the socialist model of your dreams.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 10:47 PM

Here's a bit of an update with regard to the end-game(Al Jazeera):

Fighters belonging to the Libyan National Transitional Council (NTC) say they have entered the loyalist stronghold of Bani Walid, with street fighting reported to be taking place in the town, 150km southeast of the capital Tripoli.

The news came just hours after Muammar Gaddafi's loyalists fired Grad rocket barrages at the fighters besieging Bani Walid and Sirte, a coastal city also under the deposed leader's control.

Abdullah Kenshil, the former rebels' chief negotiator, said the former rebels were fighting gunmen positioned in houses in the town of Bani Walid and the hills that overlooked it. "They are inside the city. They are fighting with snipers....They forced this on us and it was in self-defence."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 03:43 AM

What about the civilians Charley?    Where is NATO when they are needed?

Oh yes, they are not real civilians, they dont believe the right things.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 07:05 AM

The civilians are being liberated from being held hostage by Gaddafi's thugs by the freedom fighters.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 09:35 AM

Yes, Akenaton, some civilians will be killed or injured in "liberating" this town. It's called war.

I also note that more bodies are being uncovered of "Rebels" executed by Gadhafi's forces before they fled from Tripoli and surrounding towns. Perhaps, you'd like to do a body count and assess what the balance is?

The Gadhafi forces were urged to surrender in Bani Walid (and in other towns), and the townspeople who urged surrender were typically run out of town.

And NATO is being appropriately caution about further bombing, providing aerial surveillance instead.

Have a nice day.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 10:27 AM

More inconvenient truths for those who still idolize dear Muammar:

NATO has always been concerned about civilian casualties.   And Muammar has exploited this by doing such things as putting children on tanks, as I noted earlier.

And here's more:    Reuters, 10 Sept 2011:   "Families trickled out of Bani Walid before the fighting intensified".

A Reuters reporter spoke to one of the families;   "his veiled wife, Oum Abdurahman, leaned out of the window, holding her baby son".    She said:   "there's no food, no power, no water. Many people want to leave but have no fuel for their cars and Gaddafi forces are preventing people from leaving.   They fire in the air to terrorize people.   Today we managed to leave."

But this can't be true, can it Ake?    Your man Muammar and his supporters would never try to actually maximize civilian casualties, now would they?

Time for you to at long last take off your blinders.



As I said, "debating" with leftists is shooting fish in a barrel. Perhaps it's because they don't even bother to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 11:40 AM

Nato bombing the towns which support the Col.....towns containing thousands of civilians......hypocrits!

Lets here it for the civilians now you "democrats"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 01:03 PM

In addition to your other sterling qualities, Ake, your reading skills appear rather abysmal.   I just finished pointing out how Gaddafi's forces are preventing civilians, many of whom are desperate to leave the besieged town, from doing so.   Can't understand how you have managed to miss the post just before yours.

It looks like we can make this a musical thread after all---W.S. Gilbert spoke quite directly to the attitude of Muammar's defenders:


"The idiot who praises with enthusiastic tone
Every century but this and each country but his own"


And remember the theme of his little ditty.   True here in spades.

Actually Muammar's fans don't praise every country but their own--they whine constantly about the entire West.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 02:10 PM

It's true that NATO has made some recent bombing runs after the Rebels pulled back. Hopefully they have a good idea of what they're targeting. The Gadhafi loyalists should bear some responsibility, don't you think, Akenaton, for the inevitable civilian casualties. Or do you think their hands are clean?

Laying siege to these towns for another week or so might be an option but there would also be civilian suffering. It just doesn't make sense, I think, to give the Gadhafi loyalists more time to brutalize their "human shields."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 04:03 AM

Well Charley you could apply that line of thinking to the "intended" massacre of civilians in Benghazi, which we used to say was the reason for our involvement in the first place?

If the Col wanted to put an end to the insurgency, I suppose some civilians may have perished, but our involvement ensured that perhaps 100, 000 will die.

To install an Islamist regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 11:17 PM

Interesting, Ake, that you predict an Islamist regime--on no evidence in Libya.

And that you're blithely willing to accept whatever Gaddafi had in mind for "the rats".

By your logic, we never should have bombed Germany in WW II, since our fighting that regime resulted in lots of deaths. And that leader also described his domestic opponents as "rats" and traitors--just like Gaddafi does.

And it seems you would have been fine with that regime also--after all, it was "socialist"=--the leader even told us over and over his was a National Socialist government.

So how long have you had this devotion to vicious dictators?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 12:12 AM

Abdelhakim Belhadj, commander of the Libyan rebel army, is now the military governor of Tripoli.

Tripoli was a burgeoning city of 2 million, about to become a Mediterranean vacation spot. Now it's under the control of a certifiable madman. Look up his history if you want to be nauseated.

Kadafi had the Muslim-on-black violence under control and his nation was about to become first-world. NATO couldn't allow that, so the country's been turned over to barbarians and looters. A fine way for Obama to celebrate the tenth anniversary of September 11, to have al Qeada lynching blacks in a country he "liberated."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 03:45 AM

Well said indeed Frank.

Ron ....To equate Col Gadaffi's Lybia with Hitlers "Democratically elected" govt in Germany is quite wrong.

"Democratic" Germany was a real military threat to the UK and the rest of Europe....whereas The Col's dictatorship was not, indeed he appeared to be working very closely with our security services.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 04:55 AM

"A pro-Gaddafi radio station in Bani Walid is urging residents to rise up against the revolutionaries, promising "the prettiest girls" in town as a reward."

Al Jazeera

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 08:21 AM

Reuters reporting that Gaddafi thugs using civilians as human shields in Bani Walid.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:38 AM

Amnesty International reporting 'ruthless and deadly' human rights abuses on both sides of the conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 08:50 AM

Ake-

"quite wrong".    Sorry, as usual, you are the one off base.    He has promised terrorism to the West. Clueless armchair socialists --like your good self?---would make it easy for him. And he has every incentive--and money--to do so if you had your wish and he were reinstated.

Further, Gaddafi's main parallels with Hitler have been clear for months,    Both are totalitarians, who sought to be seen as the embodiment of the country, teach their followers to feel the same, and saw their opponents as scum and traitors.   Gaddafi of course still does. At some point you should actually open a book rather than continue to speak from your fathomless ignorance.

And you should count yourself lucky you did not live in Libya under him--you would have been in prison long since.

So, please tell us, as I said: how long have you had this devotion to murderous totalitarians?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:00 AM

And tell me Ron how long have YOU been residing in Libya?

You think the Col was a murderous totalitarian, just wait till the Islamists start laying down Sharia Law in exchange for oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:16 AM

"Mustafa Abdul Jalil outlined his plans to create a modern democratic state based on "moderate Islam" to thousands of flag-waving supporters in the newly renamed Martyrs' Square."

"In his first speech since moving to the capital from the NTC stronghold of Benghazi, Mr Jalil told some 10,000 supporters to avoid retribution attacks, adding that Libya's new leaders would not accept any extremist ideology.

The speech was short, in contrast with Col Gaddafi's infamously long public addresses. The broad theme was reconciliation. Mr Jalil urged both ordinary Libyans and his fighters to comply with the law and not to take matters into their own hands. He reminded people that not everyone who worked for the Gaddafi regime should be treated with contempt.

Religion is a key issue in conservative Libya. He said the NTC would not accept extreme right- or left-wing ideologies. There have been some calls for secularism from a minority in Benghazi and some technocrats.

The speech appeared to go down well with the thousands of Libyans who had gathered in Martyrs' Square. He was frequently interrupted by applause, whistling and women cheering."

As soon as it ended, there was a barrage of celebratory gunfire, not just in central Tripoli but also in the east of the city. It seemed to reach out to all Libyans and also foreign parties who had helped during the conflict.

"We are a Muslim nation, with a moderate Islam, and we will maintain that. You are with us and support us - you are our weapon against whoever tries to hijack the revolution," he said.

BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:45 AM

There you go again, Ake, more from your depth of boundless ignorance and gloom.    There are Islamists in Libya,    There are also many Libyans who want the freedom to be able to express themselves--for the first time in 40 years.   Not to be chained to Sharia law in all things. Which, you note, has not even happened in Iraq, where it was also predicted.

What's more, Libyan money from oil can finance an excellent educational system, among other benefits to the country.   And the longer a pluralistic education system is in effect, the less likely Sharia law will rule.

Only a clueless--and bitter?---armchair socialist would predict that all Libyans will willingly submit to an Islamist theocracy.   

Added to which, as I may possibly have noted before, the West has enough threats of terrorism without bankrolling another.   Which is in fact your proposal.

Don't worry, we don't expect you to admit that you have been wrong from the start in opposing the West's part in the Libyan struggle.

I wonder to what extent your stubborn opposition is based on the fact that some benefit is likely to accrue to the UK as led by Cameron.   The UK is likely to get the best oil contracts, after France.   Not a giveaway, but a reward getting in early and staying the course--despite constant pathetic whining from the Left--including your good self?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:56 AM

"residing in Libya".    Actually, Ake, that's not necessary. It is however necessary to read something and not just listen constantly to your own echo-chamber.   You ought to try it sometime.

I read constantly anything I can see on the Libyan situation--from all perspectives.    So I learn to distinguish news from rumor.   Again, you might try it.

I also note you have not contradicted my assertion that Gaddafi, like Hitler, considered himself the embodiment of the country, saw his opponents as vermin and traitors, and, to the best of his ability taught Libyans to feel the same.

Perhaps you haven't contradicted it because it's obviously true.

But now the majority of the country has had enough of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 08:08 PM

We are getting to that grim phase in the revolution where atrocities are being documented on both sides by Amnesty International. I applaud the efforts by the NTC leadership to seek reconciliation with as many Gadhafi supporters as possible, with the exception of the internationally identified criminals.

I am also impressed that the Rebels have resisted storming into the remaining Gadhafi strongholds, guns blazing. They could do that but instead they are urging the civilians to flee for another two days.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 11:18 PM

A good article about how al Qeada has been put in charge of Libya. Written by a French reporter NATO has been threatening to kill:

http://12160.info/forum/topics/how-al-qaeda-men-came-to-power-in-libya-by-thierry-meyssan-of

How Al Qaeda men came to power in Libya

by Thierry Meyssan

...On 26 June 2005, Western intelligence agencies held a meeting in London of Libyan dissidents. They constituted the "National Conference of the Libyan opposition", bringing together three Islamic factions: the Muslim Brothers, the Senoussi Brotherhood and the LIFG. Their manifesto set forth three objectives:
*to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi;
*to exercise power for one year (under the name "National Transition Council");
*to restore the constitutional monarchy to its 1951 form and make Islam the state religion....

...On 17 February 2011, "National Libyan Opposition Conference" organized a "day of anger" in Benghazi, which sparked the beginning of the war....

...On 1 May 2011, Barack Obama announced that, in Abbottabad (Pakistan), the US Navy's SEAL Team Six had taken out Osama bin Laden, about whom no reliable news had been heard for almost 10 years. The announcement padlocked the Al-Qaeda file and enabled the revamping of the jihadists into the renewed allies of the United States as in the good old days of the Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya and Kosovo wars [7] On 6 August, all the members of SEAL commando 6 perished in the crash of their helicopter....

-------

This is just another coup brought to you by the CIA and MI-6, using al Qeada and NATO to do the blood work. But this coup stands a good chance of failing. NATO has outlived its mission. It is now an invading army of terrorists. Time to disband it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 02:28 AM

Songwriter

What complete and utter tripe.

So Libyan dissidents met and afirmed their desire to overthrow Gaddafi - WOW, what a revelation - about as interesting and amazing as the headline - "Dog bites Man"

The fact that this meeting took place in London in 2005 is neither here nor there. Londinistan has been known for years to be a place of refuge for dissidents from Islamic countries.

"On 6 August, all the members of SEAL commando 6 perished in the crash of their helicopter...."

All members?? Oh no they did not - you should take a good look at the organisation of the Unit you are talking about and their tasking.

The members assigned to SEAL 6 who took part in the raid on Abbottabad all came from their base in the USA where they had trained for months on a mock up of the compound they were about to attack. Where did they go after the raid? Abbottabad to Afghanistan - Afghanistan to a USN Aircraft Carrier in the Arabian Sea - USN Aircraft carrier to the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 03:05 AM

Certainly I agree about the status of NATO Songwronger.
Hopefully, with the coming of Scottish Independence, we in Scotland will have the guts to withdraw from its shadow.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 07:52 AM

Songwronger-

There's quite enough to be concerned about in this phase of the Libyan revolution without relying on cut-and-paste conspiracy fantasy such as "How Al Qaeda men came to power in Libya by Thierry Meyssan."

Maybe I'll do a Google search of the author and see what I can dredge up.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 08:02 AM

Here's the link to what's posted at wikipedia on Thierry Meysan: Click here for report!

If you love conspiracy theories, you'll love this guy's work. I suppose there is a remote possibility that he is entirely correct, and that Gadhafi is still in control of Tripoli, and that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated by neoconservatives to gain control of the entire Milky Way Galaxy.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 09:04 AM

Charley again has it right.    The chances for Monsieur Meyssan to be anything but comic relief are somewhat slim.

Convinced a Boeing did not hit the Pentagon 11 Sept 2001.    This theory is too much even for some other 11 Sept conspiracy theorists.    But no doubt not too much for some of our illustrious Mudcat Leftists.

And 22 Aug 2011, reporting that Gaddafi forces had driven most of the rebels from the city.

I wonder what he's telling his listeners now, reporting from his alternate universe.

Again, nobody can say the opponents of Western involvement in Libya are not imaginative in their depictions of events and their dire predictions.

As I noted before, there is a wonderful opportunity for them in writing pulp fiction---where logic and sense are not required and may just get in the way of telling a good story,

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 10:36 PM

Gadhafi is still making radio broadcasts via a radio station he has funded in Syria, and is still calling for the people of Libya to rise up and throw the "rats" out. He's also calling for the UN to intervene and protect the civilian population in the towns and territory he still controls. Now that's a switch!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 01:19 AM

NATO is trying to vet all the reporting that's coming out of Libya, and Meyssan's not sending out the vetted stuff. And NATO has admitted it's running a disinformation campaign in Libya, so Meyssan's reportage is at least as credible as that coming from an organization which ADMITS it's lying to you. Why would any of you choose to believe the statements of people who tell you they are lying?

As far as al Qeada in Libya, they've been installed as the new rulers. Just look at the membership. Bad guys yesterday, good guys today.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 08:04 AM

Songwronger-

You have a point with "vetting" but Meysaan's not your best case for alternative reporting. Why not admit that and find someone more credible? And, no, I don't rely on NATO for updates but if I were your criticism would have some merit. I love this kind of inane debate!

Maybe that's why I rely primarily on Al Jazeera; I don't believe they're run by NATO, the CIA, or Al Qeada or Walt Disney.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 09:39 AM

"al Qaeda in Libya as the new rulers".    Right.   And I'm the Prime MInister of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 10:10 AM

So, Mr. Thinknotter, you inhabit the same alternate universe as Monsieur Meyssan. Tell us, how can we get tourist visas so we can come gawk at you two?

As I said earlier, fish in a barrel.    And it's sinfully addicting--which is a real problem.

Unless of course you're just desperate to get to 1,000.   Don't worry, at this rate, no sweat doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 10:07 AM

A snippet from a "man in the street" in Tripoli, this is from a forum with which I have been engaged since the beginning:

"Yesterday evening my friend and work associate came to see me out of the blue. He had been incommunicado for three weeks. He had been in Libya and was fighting with the ff [freedom fighters aka rebels] just as Tripoli was taken back.

Some things of note.

He said that Tripoli has already become very quiet now. Right after it was taken back the guns were firing constantly in celebration. He said now the only time he heard any gunfire was for an hour after Libya beat Mozambique in football.

He said I wouldn't believe what Tripoli is like now. Everyone is smiling, inviting people, strangers to come in for food or lodging, women walking alone on the streets without head coverings in the middle of the night (just like the old days).

I asked him about the threat of an reactionary Islamic movement. He told me trha tthere was no one other than a few fighters that wanted an Islamic movement to take power. He said that Bilhaj was being eyed with suspicion by the tripolitanians. He was restricted to the city but, the NTC withdrew its call for the brigades to return to their homes after they decided it was a good insurance policy against Bilhaj. Bilhaj's forces it should bbe remarked numbered only between 5 and 700. My friends brother who was with the Zintan brigade (even though he is from Tripoli) was one of three and his numbered 1200 (responsible for airport security). I asked if there was problems with these brigades in Tripoli. He said no that they were given food and shelter when necessary and being treated as heros still. He said that it will be better when they start using the new Qatari police vehicles for patrols instead of the armed pick-up trucks but that securoity was not seeming to be an issue at all.

Asking more about Bihaj, he said that three containers of weapons (ammo mostly) were said to have been Bilhaj's on the way to Tripoli so they were detained and are being held back, This raised suspicion on Bilhaj and so the various brigades throughout Tripoli have ben assigned checkpoints throughout the city to ensure that they can keep an eye on his movements and activities. He was absolutely firm that there were no Libyans that wanted to go from Ghaddafi to a bunch of fanatics. Something I had always believed too. He said even uneducated people he spoke to didn't want them."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 07:19 AM

"Boys and girls chanted slogans against Moammar Gaddafi and teachers hanged an effigy of the fugitive leader as many Libyan children started their first school year without the "brother leader''dictating the curriculum.

Euphoria filled the halls on Saturday, but teachers admitted a lot needed to be done to overhaul an educational system where a main goal for nearly 42 years was to instill adoration of Gaddafi and what he touted as the greatest system of rule in the world - the "Jamahiriya,'' a utopian "rule by the masses'' that in reality boiled down to rule by Gadhafi.

The AP news agency reported that at the Al-Fayha Elementary School, boys dashed around the courtyard unfurling the red, black and green revolutionary flag that has replaced the old regime's green banner.

Students, many decked out in "Free Libya'' T-shirts in the same colors sang, "You are a free Libyan, raise your head up'' and other victory songs."

Al Jazeera

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 10:59 AM

Meanwhile back on the front lines the Rebels are finding it tough going in terms of securing the Gadhafi-held strongholds of Sirte and Bani Walid (from Al Jazeera): Click here for update!

There may be progress reported later today on the make-up of the new Interim 36-member Cabinet

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 12:47 PM

992 posts and none of us have an idea of what is really going on, we are constantly fed misinformation.
free people well lets wait and see, I reckon they could be replacing the devil they know with some devils they dont know.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 09:33 PM

Certainly you can reject UPI, Guardian, Washington Post, al-Jazeera, BBC, and virtually every other source of information, and believe that all the pictures and videos of rejoicing Libyans have been staged.   And choose to listen instead to the voices in your head---which evidently are telling you that kindly Uncle Muammar never meant any of his citizens any harm.

Or you can wake up.

Or stop smoking what you're smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 10:26 PM

I agree with Good Soldier's Schweik .... 993 posts, and 9 months later and it's still a fucking mess .... yup, we just have to wait and see.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 03:22 AM

and now Yemen......just wait and see,but be afraid....be very afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 11:01 AM

"just wait and see,but be afraid....be very afraid. - Akenaton

Of what??

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 05:56 PM

Teribus et aL-

"just wait and see,but be afraid....be very afraid." - Akenaton

Just his usual concern that the revolution will be taken over by Islamic fundamentalists.

Today there were some Rebel advances reported in the Gadhafi southern stronghold of Sabha (Al Jazeera): click here for update!

There seems no easy resolution for Sirte and Bani Walid where both sides are still slugging it out, with civilians caught in between.

And the final make-up of the new Interim Cabinet remains unresolved.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 08:20 PM

Maybe that's why I rely primarily on Al Jazeera; I don't believe they're run by NATO, the CIA, or Al Qeada or Walt Disney.

Al Jazeera, no agenda, got it. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 08:21 PM

1000

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 08:51 PM

Songwronger-

There's always a temptation to rack up that 1000. Congratulations!

It has been an interesting thread; I've learned a lot, some of which I'd prefer not to have learned.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 09:06 AM

For those who are keeping score (Al Jazeera):

Libya's interim rulers are claiming that their fighters have overrun the key southern city of Sabha, one of the last strongholds of forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi.

"We are in complete control of the city of Sabha. Everybody, including [those who were] pro-Gaddafi, are now with the revolution," Abdelmajid Seif Ennasr, an official for the National Transitional Council (NTC) in Sabha, told the AFP news agency on Wednesday.

That still leaves the major towns of Sirte and Bani Walid, along the coastal highway, in the hands of pro-Gadhafi forces. Resistance is still described as stiff there.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:28 AM

Here's the latest update of what is happening on the ground in Libya (Al Jazeera):

Libyan fighters have said they are waiting for civilians to escape from Sirte, the hometown and stronghold of former leader Muammar Gaddafi, before they start their final advance.

Several attempts by National Transitional Council's (NTC) fighters to take Sirte and Bani Walid, two of Gaddafi's remaining major strongholds, in the past week have ended in disarray and panicked retreat.

Fighters making their way back from the front line said they met fierce resistance at Khamseen, 50km east of Sirte, and that they lacked the firepower to respond.

In Bani Walid, NTC forces moved tanks towards the frontline on Wednesday in an attempt to capture the town.

"Of course it will certainly help us a lot in the final battle. You have seen these tanks. There are also Grads and we will use them by putting them in the front," Abdul Salaam Ganuna, an NTC commander, said.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:56 PM

Continued success by Rebels is reported by Al Jazeera in Southern Libya:

Commanders with the National Transitional Council (NTC) said their forces now controlled all three main towns in the Al-Jufra oasis, 24 hours after they announced the capture of Libya's largest desert city, Sabha, in the deep south.

"Al-Jufra - Hun, Waddan and Sokna - is liberated," a military spokesman in Libya's third-largest city Misrata said in a statement early on Thursday.

The defeat of Muammar Gaddafi loyalists in the Saharan oases left his remaining forces in his hometown of Sirte on the Mediterranean coast and the desert city of Bani Walid to its west effectively cut off from any line of escape to the south.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:21 PM

The U.S. has stepped into a messy puddle of oil.

Don't we have enough quagmires? Maybe not for Exxon or Shell

or Blackwater.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:46 PM

Stringsinger-

Not as messy as Iraq or Afghanistan, but then I've a wishy washy liberal, rather than a dedicated Trotskyite. It must be great to have such moral quality.

So, shall I assume that you would still advocate that no intervention was called for in Libya or will you actually defend your position, given what we have learned about the Gadhafi regime?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 07:28 AM

Furthermore, as I noted earlier, it's fascinating that the Left is always whining about how the West only supports tyrants.   This is one of the few instances in which the West has actually helped topple a tyrant.   But suddenly this isn't what the Left wanted after all.   So it seems leftist commentators are just card-carrrying members of the "ain't it awful?" club.    Whatever it is, "ain't it awful?"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 12:00 AM

Al Jazeera, the pan-Arab news network financed by Qatar, named a member of the Qatari royal family on Tuesday to replace its top news director after disclosures from the group WikiLeaks indicating that the news director had modified the network's coverage of the Iraq war in response to pressure from the United States.

Al Jazeera is under intense scrutiny in the Middle East over its varying coverage of the Arab Spring revolts. Although the network is nominally independent — and its degree of autonomy was itself a revolution in the context of the region's state-controlled news media when it began in 1996 — many people contend that its coverage of the region still reflects the views of its Qatari owners.

Al Jazeera played an early and influential role in covering — some would say encouraging — the unrest in Tunisia and Egypt last winter. It was even more aggressive in its focus on the regime of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi and the struggles of what it called "freedom fighters" in Libya, where Qatar came to play a major role in supporting the rebellion.

http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/09/after-disclosures-by-wikileaks-al.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 11:11 AM

Songwronger-

Good point about Al Gezeera. I'd noticed that their news director had been replaced recently; no reason to draw any conclusions yet, however.

I would hope that its coverage would still provide a good balance to what I harvest from the major press sources in the States and in the UK.

Time will tell...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 11:17 AM

oh, and on the battle front Rebel forces have made major advances in Sirte, into the very center of the city and occupying two adjacent neighborhoods (Al Jazeera): click here for report!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 11:14 AM

So since the US pressured Qatar in the Iraq case, we should disregard what they say on Libya.   Of course.    Just ignore that aside from transmitting some rumors of developments, their reporting is echoed by virtually every other news outlet in the world.    Except possibly Russian.   And good socialists should only heed what Russia says, since it's always the truth.   After all, consider Pravda--it's right in the title.

And of course there's your French source, with his imaginative depiction of 11 Sept.

Look, any rational person--perhaps that excludes Mudcat leftists--knows you have to read many sources and use your head to decide what is really going on.

But if you say the Iraq case proves Qatar is a prisoner of the evil West, it must be so---in your alternate universe.

So we still need an answer to the question as to how we can get tourist visas to come gawk at you there.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 12:14 PM

Reuters report: Libya's interim authorities said on Sunday they had found a mass grave in the capital containing the bodies of more than 1,270 people killed by Muammar Gaddafi's security forces in a 1996 massacre at Tripoli's Abu Salim prison.

The uprising that toppled Gaddafi last month was ignited by protests linked to the Abu Salim massacre.

In February, families of inmates killed at the south Tripoli prison in 1996 demonstrated in the eastern city of Benghazi to demand the release of their lawyer.

Human rights groups have estimated that about 2,000 Abu Salim inmates were killed in the 1996 massacre.

"We are dealing with more than 1,270 martyrs and must distinguish each one from the other for identification by
comparing their DNA with family members," said Dr Osman Abdul Jalil, a medical official.

"It may take years to reach the truth."

Khaled al-Sharif, spokesman for the Tripoli Military Council, said investigators had found the site about two weeks
ago, relying on information from people detained on suspicion of involvement in the massacre in some way.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 08:04 PM

bobad-

Just what we needed, more bodies to justify our case for the Rebel victory. Well, I for one don't need any more bodies to count. The threats from Gadhafi back in March were persuasive enough.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 01:29 PM

Rebels are renewing their attempt to "liberate" Sirte from Gadhafi loyalists:

Fighters supporting Libya's interim government have raced into the eastern outskirts of Sirte backed by NATO warplanes and are fighting street-to-street battles with loyalists of Muammar Gaddafi in his home town.

Thick black smoke billowed into the air as National Transitional Council (NTC) fighters battled at a roundabout about 2km from the centre of the key town on Monday.

The thud of large explosions could be heard as NATO aircraft roared overhead, but NATO would not comment on latest operations in Sirte.

NTC fighters fought with machineguns and rifles and moved tanks and heavy artillery into the town.

"[NTC fighters] are entering the city from the east for the first time," Al Jazeera's Sue Turton, reporting from the frontlines, said.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 04:52 PM

Stringsinger-

Not as messy as Iraq or Afghanistan, but then I've a wishy washy liberal, rather than a dedicated Trotskyite. It must be great to have such moral quality.

So, shall I assume that you would still advocate that no intervention was called for in Libya or will you actually defend your position, given what we have learned about the Gadhafi regime?

Charley Noble
I will defend it, because when it suits the west they support tyrants or take no action, this proves to me that the West is not in the least concerned about toppling tyrants, unless the West benefits in a particular way.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 07:24 PM

Dick-

"the West is not in the least concerned about toppling tyrants, unless the West benefits in a particular way."

I couldn't agree with you more, and it's sad about those other unfortunate countries. Do you know of any powerful country anywhere on this globe that has a good record of helping overthrow tyrants?

Tanzania once helped chase Idi Amin out of Uganda but it's hardly a powerful country.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 03:36 AM

The abuse and murder of black african migrant workers has started in the new Libya.

I think we have created another disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 06:35 AM

"has started".    Don't you ever do any research?   Bad feelings between Arabs and blacks are not exactly new.   Didn't start in 2011--except in your alternate universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 07:51 AM

Re mistreatment of black Africans the leadership have over and over stressed that this kind of vigilantism must be stopped and will be looked into by the new government. They have also ensured Amnesty International that they will look into any misdeeds carried out by their own forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 08:45 AM

There is a major problem of racism/ethnic strife that has long historical roots in Libya (and other countries in North Africa). Thousands of Black Africans from Southern Libya and from adjacent countries worked as migrant labor in the North, and some also worked as mercenaries, doing the dirtiest work for the Gadhafi regime. No one should be surprised or shocked to find them mistreated at this point by some Rebels.

It is to their credit that the Rebel leadership, imperfect as it is, has urged restraint against such reprisals.

So, no, "we" haven't created another disaster. What you (Akenaton) could have said is that "we" have helped create conditions in which reprisals can be expected, and in some cases have been documented. And then I would agree with you.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 09:03 AM

To be honest, media are less rosy here in reporting the news, during the weekend there were interviews with soldiers on the front line in Sirte, saying they were only ever going to make any headway there if heavy weaponry and leadership would be come available, printed media report powerstruggles and cracks in the alliance

Pretty much what can be expected and hopefully all that will be overcome but there are certainly a few bumps in the road that have yet to be taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 11:15 AM

The question being begged here is what happens to Libya when the TNC takes over?
"New boss, same as the old boss?"

The Egyptians made a fatal decision to throw their revolution to their military, an institution not known for honoring democratic values but autocratic ones.

Does anyone really think you can bomb democracy into being?
There was the rise of post-war Germany but it took a long time for them to climb out from under the rubble. There was the stain of Dresden.

The problem is this: America supports dictators until they overstep their authority by
threatening America, then the support is dramatically overturned. 1. Gadaffi 2. Osama
(during the days of the Mujadaheen), 3. Noriega 4. Suharto 5. Papa Doc and Baby Doc
6. Saddam Hussein 7.Chiang Kai-shek.....the list goes on.

"The dictator is dead...long live the dictator......" (U.S. foreign policy).

Then what kind of nation supports "Guantanamo"?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 07:55 AM

Muammar Gaddafi is believed to be hiding near the western Libyan town of Ghadamis under the protection of Touareg tribesmen, a senior Libyan military official said.

"One tribe, the Touareg, is still supporting him and he is believed to be in the Ghadamis area in the south," Hisham Buhagiar, a senior military official of the Libya's new leadership, told Reuters.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 11:40 AM

Here come the Tuaregs!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 11:49 AM

The view of Fidel Castro Ruz

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 04:19 PM

Nothing is "rosey" about the fighting to take control of Sirte. Here an update from Al Jazeera:

Forces loyal to Libya's interim government say they have captured the airport in Sirte, the birthplace of the former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.

Fighters belonging to National Transitional Council said on Wednesday they were in control of the airport after intense fighting in the coastal city, one of the last of two bastions of support for the deposed Libyan leader.

Sirte has withstood a siege by NTC fighters hitting it with tank and rocket fire as well as NATO air raids.

But intense sniper and artillery fire from pro-Gaddafi forces has so far prevented NTC forces from taking Sirte, despite more than two weeks of fighting and two full-on assaults.

Al Jazeera's Zeina Khodr, reporting from the city, said the latest seizure by NTC forces marked the capture of a strategic site.


"Anti-Gaddafi fighters seem to be in control of Sirte airport, a very strategic location; they have been receiving help from NATO," she said.

But our correspondent said that NTC fighters have not been able to hold territory inside Sirte.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 11:03 PM

Interesting article from Der Spiegel ... for those that may be interested

A Questionable Form of Freedom for North Africa

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 08:34 PM

Rebels still maintain control over Sirte airport.

Jumping a little late onto the bandwagon Sen. John McCain arrived in Tripoli proclaiming:

"Libyan people have inspired the world, the sacrifice of the Libyan people give Libyans a lasting chance for peace," he said at a news conference.

"The next few month will shape the future. The NTC will announce a new cabinet and it is important for it to be inclusive of all.

"It is important of the NTC to bring in any armed groups under its responsible authority. They also need to bring Gaddafi and his family to justice.

So it goes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 03:12 AM

I think we've heard all that before Charley.
It's so bloody depressing!`

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:15 AM

akenaton-

Well, I was just trying to provide you something to nibble on, and McCain was there!

McCain became oddly silent after calling for early intervention. Now that it looks as if the NATO intervention has reinforced the Rebel effort enough to topple Gadhafi, McCain is there to take his share of credit.

What's McCain's position on Syria?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:05 PM

Here's a chilling Al Jazeera video report about 10,000 drums of radioactive yellow cake recently discovered by Rebels in a warehouse near Sabah: click here for report!

Gadhafi swore that all of his radioactive supplies were turned over to international authorities. I guess he was not telling the whole truth.

There are also sinister looking shells or warheads in the warehouses that may contain poisonous gas.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 05:26 PM

Maybe he was just watching it for Saddam?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:39 PM

Akenaton-

My very thought! Wonder if Baby Bush had similar thoughts? No, that's all history and he's too busy writing his autobiography to second guess that.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 05:55 AM

"There are also sinister looking shells or warheads in the warehouses that may contain poisonous gas."

Well they may but I would very much doubt it. For safety and degradation issues related to what those shells or warheads have to filled with, you do not "arm" such weapons until you are about to use them - that process from authorisation to actually arming the munitions (Bombs, rockets, artillery shells or mortars) distributing them so that they are ready to go takes 45 minutes. That is what we, in the armed forces, learned during the "Cold War", that is what was confirmed to us by the new NATO member States who were formerly part of the Warsaw Pact. Now who was it again that told the world and its dog about Chemical and Biological weapons and 45 minutes again and was accused of lying?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 11:38 AM

Mr Blair.....lying....I dont believe it!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM

Teribus-

Would you view the full video, linked above at 30 Sep 11 - 02:05 PM.

I haven't a clue what those rows of canisters are.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 01:11 PM

This thread is akin to a self-perpetuating feedback loop.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM

L.H. .... I agree .... in fact it's getting to have some really unique sound effects .... so much I think we should add some sort of melody from a Moog Synthesiser to the track .... the results might provide a good back drop music mood for a film noir flick.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 05:32 PM

Hope you read all the posts carefully. Some are unique. ;~)

Well, at least one is!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 07:45 PM

This thread ... like every well composed piece of music has a good middle eight.

biLL ... :~0

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM

"There are also sinister looking shells or warheads in the warehouses that may contain poisonous gas."

That is what you wrote Charley.

I looked at your linked video report and saw no sinister looking shells or warheads. In order of presentation I viewed:

- 45 gallon drums of Uranium yellow cake;
- Soviet/Russian Grad Rocket launcher tubes
- Soviet/Russian surface-to-air-missiles on their transporters
- Containment vessels (contents of inner compartment unknown)

Those containers are neither shells or warheads.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 11:05 AM

Teribus-

I believe it was the containment vessels that I considered so sinister.

What a temptation this stockpile must be for international arms smugglers. There were reports that the warehouses are being observed 24 hours by surveillance drones. But there really needs to be international observers there on the ground, in additional to Libyan guards.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 02:47 PM

That's nothing new is it Charley?

Even in the early days of the rising there were reports of convoys of lorries shifting stockpiled weapons out of Libya. Depending on sources at this moment there are between 5 and 10.000 SAM7 missiles unaccounted for, off to the black market arms traders it is believed.

(the 10K number appeared on Der Spiegel website today, from a NATO source, German defence sources spoke of 5000)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 05:04 PM

Peter-

Only the video of the warehouse near Sabah is new, to me, and it reinforces the point of how much evil stuff Gadhafi was stockpiling. Gadhafi certainly had his yellow cake; but he should have a chance to eat it too. Party on!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 05:08 PM

According to Al Jazeera there has been a 48-hour ceasefire announced by the Rebels to permit more civilians to flee from Serte:

Hundreds of residents of Sirte are fleeing the coastal town after the National Transitional Council (NTC) announced a 48-hour suspension in fighting to capture toppled leader Muammar Gaddafi's hometown.

A long queue of cars jammed the roads leading out of Sirte on Sunday as civilians sought to escape a worsening humanitarian crisis in the town.

Residents fleeing the town of around 100,000 say that those still trapped inside are running low on food and supplies, enduring NTC and NATO shelling as well as intimidation from forces loyal to Gaddafi who are trying to prevent some people from leaving.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 07:35 PM

Here's a little glimpse of what Nicolas Pelham found in Tripoli some 4 weeks ago:

"The sense of local ownership of the revolution is important: No one
has stripped the electricity cables from pylons for their copper, as
Iraqis did after the US invaded their country and toppled Saddam
Hussein. Libyans, who before the uprising depended on an army of foreign
labor, farm their own allotments, run their own shops, sweep the
streets and volunteer as hospital nurses. Homeowners with private wells
open their doors to those with none. On their own initiative, policemen
in Fashloum, a working-class district in the center of town, met in the
mosque on the first Friday after the colonel's flight and agreed to
reestablish a local force. By midday the following day, a score of its
hundred policemen had reported for duty.
Residents of housing estates who rarely spoke to each other under
Qaddafi have created neighborhood councils, merging elders from the
traditional conflict resolution mechanisms, the lijan al-sulh
(reconciliation committees), with the underground leadership that
planned the revolt, as well as respected men from the mosque. Within a
week, their subcommittees were supplying better services than the city's
five-star hotels. The mosque in Hadaba's Haddad quarter, a poor
district of rural migrants, offered air conditioning and so much water
it spilled into the streets. Ironically, in the colonel's absence,
Tripolitanians created the very social system he had taught but never
realized -- a jamahiriyya, a decentralized network of grassroots, non-partisan people's committees."

http://www.merip.org/mero/mero090711

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 08:15 AM

For those who haven't read "the writing on the wall" take a look at some of these photos: Click here for PIXS!

No, fear not, they're not documenting atrocities, and some are outright humorous.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,mudcat7
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 01:29 PM

its time to brun the american flag and destory ky .

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 09:34 AM

mudcat7-

"its time to brun the american flag and destory ky ."

"brun"?

Well, that is thought-provoking.

Any other insights on "brunning" issues?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 08:17 PM

maybe he/she meant 'bruin'

but

bruin means bear ... bear ?!?!

ok

now this is beyond thought provoking.

all in all

do we really give a rat's ass what he/she was trying to get across.

now

back to the subject of this thread ....


biLL ... :)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 06:32 PM

ky?

Kentucky?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 09:13 PM

maybe the jelly ???

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM

And we're supposed to "destory" something--sounds like it might be different from "telling de story".

Ain't it wonderful to have such articulate Mudcatters?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:15 AM

"A rebel fighting in the last stronghold of Muammar Gaddafi's Libya has taken to playing the guitar as fellow soldiers fire their guns around him.

A photograph taken on Monday in the town of Sirte shows a soldier casually playing a classical acoustic guitar against a bullet-marked wall as comrades fire assault rifles just metres away.

Nothing is yet known about the musician who is seen finger-picking the instrument while he watches another infantryman fire a heavy machine gun, with the bullet casings littering the footpath beneath their feet."

Killing them softly with his song?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:52 PM

The Rebels appear to be in the final phases of moping up the Gadhafi loyalists in Serte. It's been a tough three week campaign, and extremely hard on the civilians caught between crossfire.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:13 PM

NTC officials say they have captured Muammar Gaddafi's son Mutassim, Reuters reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 10:25 PM

CNN also mentioned that but such "reports" have not been substantiated before. If they have captured Mutassim, it's a major catch.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 08:31 AM

The story behind the fighter playing guitar in the midst of battle I posted about earlier: http://www.channel4.com/news/the-story-behind-the-libyan-guitar-hero-photo

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 09:58 AM

Bobad-

Neat story. Of course if the musician had wielded a banjo or acordian the battle for Sirte would have been over weeks ago.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 10:59 AM

Ha, ha, good one Charley.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 07:45 AM

Libyan TV reports 'capture' of Gaddafi


Libyan TV is reporting that Muammar Gaddafi has been captured by NTC fighters in Sirte.

Jamal abu-Shaalah, a field commander of NTC, told Al Jazeera that the toppled leader had been seized, but it was not clear whether he was dead or alive.

Gaddafi is captured and is wounded in both legs, Abdel Majid, another NTC official, told the Reuters news agency.

"He's captured. He's wounded in both legs ... He's been taken away by ambulance," the senior NTC military official said.

An NTC official also said that Abu Bakr Younus Jabr, the head of Gaddafi's armed forces, was killed during the capture of Gaddafi.

The news came shortly after NTC claimed capturing Sirte, Gaddafi's hometown, after weeks of fighting.

NATO said it cannot confirm the reports..

Gaddafi had not been seen since NTC fighters seized Tripoli, the Libyan capital,

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:15 AM

It is now being reported that Gaddafi is dead. Libyans are celebrating the news with joyous exuberance.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:17 AM

He was true to his word, he said "I would die before I will leave Libya".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: BTNG
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:13 AM

His death has not been confirmed, in the words of the British newspaper, The Independent "details are hazy" except it seems in the Daily Torygraph and Reuters, who, of course got their information from the NTC, who being the "victors" would of course say things like this, they have this need to please the world, and, of course obtain funds.

It seems that other "reliable source" CNN (tongue planted firmly in cheek) has video footage of what is purportedly Gaddafi's body

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: BTNG
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:29 AM

the New York Times has now jumped on the "Gaddafi is dead" bandwagon, reports are still unconfirmed at the BBC, CBC, The Independent, The Guardian, all saying that "details are still hazy"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:59 AM

Here's the link to Al Jazeera's report: click here for report!

Looks as if Gadhafi's death is for real.

May the rest of Libya find peace.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: BTNG
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:32 PM

We can but wait a see what wil happen in the short term and the long term. Is this truly a new era, or has one set of evils been replaced with another ? It's not like that hasn't happened before.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:04 PM

BTNG-

Well, the plan in Libya as implemented shows more promise than the result in Iraq. However, I'll admit, that standard for success is set very low.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: BTNG
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:09 PM

It's that standard being so low that has me worried, still I am willing to wait and see.

BTNG

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:12 PM

Here's more detail, for those who like more detail, of the attempted escape by Gadhafi and his body guards in a convey from Serte and the final fire fight when they were cornered in a culvert (from Al Jazeera): click here for report!

It will take a few days for details to be confirmed or not but it's at least more of a story than a snapshot.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:09 AM

Tyrants in other countries such as in Syria, Yemen and even Karjackastan should be stressed by the capture and summary execution of Kadhafi.

This thread may be an interesting one to review. Has anyone changed their position from their first few posts?

And who was right?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: BTNG
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM

It's that standard being so low that has me worried, still I am willing to wait and see.

I stand by this....though any country that is ruled by a council...wellllllll......

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: BTNG
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:24 AM

I see the Daily Torygraphy are in their and now it can be revealed mode

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 09:41 AM

BTNG-

Your link doesn't work for me.

All those who invested in Libyan oil futures in March can now cash in.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Nov 11 - 05:40 PM

Latest update from Al Jazeera is that the Libyan forces have captured two more important figures from the old regime:

"Libya's former intelligence chief Abdullah al-Senussi has been arrested, an official in the National Transitional Council (NTC) has said.

"Abdullah al-Senussi was arrested in Al-Guira region in the south of the country," the NTC official, who declined to be identified, told the AFP news agency on Sunday, without providing details on when he was captured.

News of Senussi's capture came a day after Libya's new rulers also announced the arrest of the late Muammar Gaddafi's son and one-time heir apparent Saif al-Islam, who had also been on the run for months.

The International Criminal Court (ICC) issued arrest warrants on June 27 for Saif al-Islam, Gaddafi and Senussi on charges of crimes against humanity committed while crushing anti-regime protests earlier this year."

That should tidy up some loose ends.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 11:00 AM

Negotiations are now taking place in Tripoli between a representative of the International Criminal Court and Libya's new rulers about how Saif al-Islam and Abdullah al-Senussi might be tried fairly in Libya. Here's the story, if there is anyone left following current events in Libya: Click here for report!

Evidently both captives are still alive at this point.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: number 6
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 07:14 PM

1 year later .... interesting

Looking back Gaddafi seems rather mild compared to Assad.

But then ... there is the oil, and that is what it was really (sadly) about.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:39 AM

"1 year later .... interesting

Looking back Gaddafi seems rather mild compared to Assad.

But then ... there is the oil, and that is what it was really (sadly) about."

Ehmm No, not about oil at all.

Prime movers in both cases has been the Arab League

In Libya the United Nations Security Council passed a Resolution that allowed the international Community to act. In the case of Syria two countries used their veto which has prevented anything from being done.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:53 AM

Bill-

It's true that post-revolutionary Libya is still evolving, and some of the evolutions are disturbing. No one expected democracy to spring forth full grown after a full blown civil war. But I doubt if the vast majority of Libyans miss Gadhafi. To characterize the Gadhafi Regime as "mild" ignores the mass graves of thousands who were slaughtered under its auspices; new mass graves are still being discovered and examined.

Syria is another case with many different aspects apart from oil reserves, and no one I know is optimistic of a peaceful resolution soon, unless "peaceful" is equated with slaughter.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 01:54 AM

"In Libya the United Nations Security Council passed a Resolution that allowed the international Community to act. In the case of Syria two countries used their veto which has prevented anything from being done".

The difference is that Russia and China trusted the rest of the UN to act decently over Libya. As they patently didn't, this time they have exercised their veto.
Quite right. The iniquity of the action against Libya will haunt those responsible.

g

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:12 AM

"The difference is that Russia and China trusted the rest of the UN to act decently over Libya. As they patently didn't, this time they have exercised their veto.
Quite right. The iniquity of the action against Libya will haunt those responsible."

In Libya Gadaffi was prevented from murdering tens of thousands of his own citizens. In that respect the UN Resolution geared to that end was not exceeded.

I can understand how nervous and uneasy such actions might affect the ruling regimes of the countries who are currently exercising their veto with regard to Syria, they after all head the list of perpetrating the greatest democides in the history of mankind (China over 71 million and Russia at just over 51 million). As you state they see nothing wrong at all in the "State" deliberately murdering it's own citizens, after all act to prevent it in Syria, and their own populations might get funny ideas, all comes down to self-preservation in the end.