BS: Fired for not believing in hell

Subject: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 06:47 PM

Clergyman fired for not believing in hell

It's funny that Christians just can't reconcile their religion with itself and for good reason: it doesn't make sense.

So this chap gets fired because he doesn't believe in hell. His conclusion derives from believing in an all-loving god. An all-loving god doesn't need a hell. But if there's no hell, then this Jesus business is a lot of silliness.

Christians warn against universalism and yet an all-loving is just that--universalism. What can you say about a god that would send you to hell because you didn't believe in Jesus? Imagine that--you're burning in hell in eternal torment. Hitler is turning on the spit next to you and says, "Millions were murdered on my orders. Generations of psychopaths and extremely violent misfits have found each other through my legacy of hatred and have killed untold thousands of innocent people in my name. What are you here for?"

"I didn't believe in Jesus."

Doesn't quite work, does it?

God just can't be that nasty and petty. So we then conclude that even if you didn't believe in Jesus, God is okay with that. As long as you were a good person you'll get into heaven. But then the Christian says, "Okay, wait just a doggone minute here! I was born a Christian and raised a Christian. I went to church every Sunday and read the bible cover-to-cover. You mean to say I did all that and yet you get to go to heaven same as me having never done any of that? Not on your afterlife, buddy! If you didn't do it my way, you ain't goin' no way!"

It's the old dilemma of faith vs. works, as I understand it. Is it your faith that makes you acceptable or is it what you did while you were here fretting your hour on the stage? Christians just can't decide and no wonder--they put themselves in an impossible position.

George Carlin put it beautifully when describing his Catholic upbringing and being taught that there are 10 things that god has ordered to never, ever do and if you dare disobey and do any one of them, you will feel the terrible wrath of god and be sent to hell to burn for all eternity...but He loves you, He LOVES you! That's basically the Christian religion encapsulated right there.

I find it very amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 06:55 PM

Poster appears to be the person who posts under the name "Lively."

---

The Angels Are Voyeurs

God is a tender pervert and the angels are voyeurs
Watching us forever, their vision never blurs
They make us then forget us for a hundred million years
And then by chance they glance at us and something in them stirs
They find us so provocative, so weak, so full of pride
Our cleverness, our nakedness, fills them with delight
The way we hold our coffee cups, the way we pick our words
God is a tender pervert and his angels
His angels are voyeurs

And when the tender pervert is too busy to admire us
He sends his angels down to pass amongst us and desire us
He gives them little notebooks where they note each quirk and boast
Our foolish pride and pompousness turn him on the most
When we're throwing temper tantrums
When we're giving up the ghost
The pervert keeps his distance
But his angels, his angels move in close

It intoxicates the Spaceman, watching how we thrill ourselves
Not by sex but by devising new ways to kill ourselves
He sees the way we tamper with the things we most depend on
The danger stands his hair on end and gives him a hard-on
He calls his angels down to watch that slut the world get hers
God is a tender pervert and his angels
His angels are voyeurs

The pervert and his angels hide amongst the stars and watch
And as we blow ourselves to bits the angels pump their cocks
Their semen flows across the sky and forms new milky wheys
And somewhere in some galaxy in less than seven days
They make a planet more curvaceous and much sexier than ours
Full of bigger sinners
More worthy of voyeurs

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:16 PM

"if there's no hell, then this Jesus business is a lot of silliness"

That's your first false assumption, joseff. Many people believe in Jesus who do not believe in hell. Many people also find much usefullness in the ethical and spiritual teachings reputedly given by Jesus, and again...they do not believe in hell. What you are imagining is that all Christians...or people who revere Jesus (and that includes the Muslims and many people in many other faiths)...also must therefore believe in hell and take everything in the Bible literally. You are mistaken. Some of them do believe in hell, while some definitely do not. I have personally known many Christians who do not believe in hell. Many also do not take everything in the Bible literally, but may view much of it as allegorical.

"Christians warn against universalism"

Some do, josepp, and some do not. Some Christians ARE universalists.

"God just can't be that nasty and petty." Agreed! ;-D And many Christians would share your viewpoint when it comes to that.

It is a certain type of fundamentalist and very doctrinaire Christian who believes in all the contradictory and nonsensical stuff you have alluded to such as a vengeful God who is also all-loving and a fiery hell to punish people in. But that doesn't describe all Christians by any means. It does appear to describe the idiots who fired the clergyman you are speaking of, though. ;-) They are afraid of what that clergyman is inviting his parishioners to do, which is to think for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:18 PM

Every Christian needs to ask himself or herself just how moral they are if they believe Jesus died for their sins. I wouldn't let a person die for my sins. I committed them, I'll pay for them, thank you for very much. If the Christian responds that this happened before we were born so it was never up to us to behind with then I respond that it could never have applied to us then--we weren't around when it happened so we couldn't have sinned.

Was Jesus's sacrifice like this once-and-for-all-time sort of thing? He paid for every sin ever committed or ever will be committed? Okay, so if not believing in Jesus is a sin, that must have been forgiven to. "Oh, no!" says the Christian, "not THAT one!" Ok, then, Jesus didn't die for my sins so shut up already.

Moreover, why should I feel any gratitude to Jesus for dying for my sins? I didn't ask him to and I don't want him to. If he took it upon himself then tough shit, I guess. I mean, if you put yourself in debt buying me a new car and I didn't ask you to or want you to, don't you dare then expect to feel gratitude. Thanks for the car but fuck you if you expect me to feel indebted.

But, really, the bottom line is this: If God wants to forgive the world then just do it and shut the hell up. God must be the biggest fucking drama-queen in the universe. All this damned crucifixion, shedding blood for the redeemed and all this horseshit when all God has to do is say, "World, I forgive you." Problem solved. But no, that would be too easy. The whole Christian salvation scheme is just God's bunch of attention-grabbing bullshit.

The truth is, I don't think the Christian god is very smart. Let's be frank, he's a fucking idiot. He has to be. Anyone who came up with this cockeyed salvation crap can't have an IQ over 30.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:20 PM

Hell is important... it keeps the flock in line. What would they DO without something to threaten them with? Rewards in Heaven have never been 'quite' enough in some congregations.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:29 PM

i thought the article dealt fairly with the issue.

i dont know any christian that is happy about hell,but plenty like myself who believe in it,s reality,as it,s in the bible.
i dont find it amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:39 PM

Never make the mistake, josepp, that everyone who doesn't think exactly as you do about everything is a complete idiot. ;-)

Not all Christians buy the notion that Jesus died for other people's sins (though I think the majority of them do). I never bought it. It's not an aspect of the teachings about Jesus that makes any sense to me at all.

You say that "God must be the biggest fucking drama-queen in the universe"? No...it's the people who make up the drama-queen stuff about God who are the drama-queens. Those people were mostly a bunch of ancient Hebrews and early Christians from a very different time...that is, the guys who wrote the various books in the Bible. They were the drama queens. They said it the way they saw it...I don't buy it. But there is some of it that I find acceptable. I don't buy everything our present society's authority figures say either, as far as that goes...

Of course God would forgive the whole world! Why not? But those Hebrew patriarchs weren't forgiving, see? They held grudges and carried out blood feuds and believed in revenge, so naturally they envisioned a God who was like that too.

You will look at the Christian religion and only see what you want to see if you're like most people, josepp. It's quite clear that what you want to see in the Christian religion is only the most negative aspects of it. That's what Hitler saw when he looked at the Jews: only bad stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: kendall
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:40 PM

You shall have no other Gods before me.
You have free will.
Anybody lost?

"Religion is for weak minded fools." (Jesse Ventura)

By the way, I understand that Hell was the name of a Scandinavian Goddess of the underworld. How did she sneak into the Bible?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:44 PM

////It is a certain type of fundamentalist and very doctrinaire Christian who believes in all the contradictory and nonsensical stuff you have alluded to such as a vengeful God who is also all-loving and a fiery hell to punish people in.////

Because the entire reason Christianity existing depends on it. If you remove hell from the scenario, Jesus didn't die for your sins because he had nothing to save you from.

The liberal Christian who says so what, that he only follows the moral teachings of Jesus doesn't know what he's talking about. As a moral teacher, Jesus had to be one of the worst--2nd only to Mohammed.

Strip Jesus of his divinity, most of what he teaches is pure nonsense and pure status quo. There was nothing revolutionary in what he taught. For example, he exhorts his followers to resist not evil (Mt 5:39). If we don't resist evil then we must, by necessity, succumb to it. He stated that if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off (Mt 5:30). Who in their right mind would steal something and then blame their hand for the theft and cut it off? Jesus stated that the slave who does not do his master's bidding "shall be beaten with many stripes" (Lk 12:47). Where is the revolutionary message that slavery is wrong and must be abolished? Nowhere. I would place Lincoln as superior to this Jesus. Jesus also stated that he did not come to bring peace "but a sword" (Mt 10:34). He claimed to he came to turn family against one another (Mt 10:35). Jesus also claimed that he who does not hate his family and himself cannot be his follower (Lk 14:26). And who can possibly explain Jesus' bizarre statement in Mark 4:11-12?

Even the Golden Rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is neither original nor particularly moral. The Old Testament already has the Golden Rule in it and Confucius was preaching it centuries before Jesus allegedly did. If the only teachings of any value spoken by Jesus can already be found in earlier religions, what the hell do we need Christianity for?? If it's already in the Old Testament, then the New Testament is a monumental waste of time.

But, see, the fundies understand that much. They are actually smarter about it than the lib Christians. They understand if you remove hell from the picture, you remove Christianity altogether. Without hell, Christianity has no need to exist. Satan is the best friend and salesman Christianity ever had--far superior to Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:52 PM

"Party politics is for weak minded fools." - Little Hawk

In my opinion, the statement, "You shall have no other Gods before me." does not necessarily refer to what you think it does, kendall. I'll explain why.

The thing that people are most devoted to in their mind IS their God. That thing might be:

- popularity
- possessions
- wealth
- fame
- sex
- physical appearance
- power over others
- prestige
- their romantic partner
- their own ego!

If it's any of the above, and it usually IS...it's getting in the way of them connecting with their spiritual source. If so, they are placing another God in front of that spiritual source, and they're cutting themselves off from it, ignoring it, and turning away from it.

That, I believe is exactly what is meant by the statement "You shall have no other Gods before me." Attend first to what matters the most, and don't become a worshipper of yourself, your possessions, your money, your fame, your girlfriend, etc...

Generations of literal-minded religious fanatics, however, have chosen to interpret it in the most primitive and literal way they could and have assumed it referred to gods such as Allah, Jehovah, Zeus, Krishna, Odin or some outward name FOR the same common spiritual source that all relgions ultimately seek to connect with...and which is beyond naming! That was their mistake, and they created wars and tragedies by making it and totally avoided dealing with the real challenge of life which is within themselves, not outside them in the world.

That we have free will is self-evident. But how many use it wisely? If you worship your own ego, your possessions, your power or your money, you won't use it very wisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:05 PM

"Hell is important... it keeps the flock in line."

I have to agree with Bill on that one. That's how hell has been used by organized religions. The trouble is that a lot of we Christians don't believe in hell any more but we're still "in line". Same as all the moral athiests who are "in line" without that threat hanging over their heads.Hell just isn't useful anymore for many of us. But if someone needs it - that's fine with me too.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:10 PM

josepp - I'm not interested in justifying the Christian religion to anyone, because I have no stake in doing so. I don't belong to it. I don't say that anyone necessarily needs it.

What I do say, though, is that you have your mind directed at looking only at what's bad about it, and that's all you can see. That's not a problem of Christianity, it's your personal problem. I have long noted the various inconsistencies you refer to in the Gospels, but I don't take them as authority, you see. I take them as accounts written down by a variety of men who all had various political and personal axes to grind.

The fact that you can't see any good in Jesus' spiritual teachings doesn't say much about them, but it says volumes about your own deep prejudices against that religion. Do I expect to change your mind about any of it? Naw.... ;-) Not bloody likely!

I just enjoy discussing it, that's all. I find it an interesting subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:10 PM

////If it's any of the above, and it usually IS...it's getting in the way of them connecting with their spiritual source. If so, they are placing another God in front of that spiritual source, and they're cutting themselves off from it, ignoring it, and turning away from it.

That, I believe is exactly what is meant by the statement "You shall have no other Gods before me."////

Sorry but this is a typical liberal Christian reinterpretation that has no basis in fact but has been tainted by New Agey values. That is clearly not what this god meant because he goes on state the reason why you can't have had other gods before him: "Because I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God." Now does that sound like your spiritual holistic source seeking to unite with you?

The meaning of that statement is very simple: If you were not born a Jew then you cannot become a Jew. You cannot have worshiped other gods because that means you are not of the tribe and if you are not of the tribe--go fuck yourself. That's what that statement means.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:14 PM

Joseph - Have you considered adding words like "at least that's what I think" at the end of a few of your statements? Or even "in my opinion"?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:21 PM

That's what that statement meant to an ignorant Jewish tribesman who was bent on slaughtering people who weren't in his tribe, yes.

That's not what it means to me.

Watcha gonna do about it? ;-D

The people of this world, josepp, are never going to cooperate and fit into the little narrow ugly stereotypes you wish them to be confined within, and that applies to Christians as well as other people.

I agree that the passage about a "jealous" God is absolutely ridiculous. If there were a universal God in existence...or in out-xistence...he, she or it would certainly not be jealous of anyone or anything, because he, she or it would not stand outside of or apart from anyone or anything...so jealousy would be impossible.

As long as you are desirous of communicating on a stone age (literal) level about stuff, josepp, you and I will not be able to connect on much...but you'll be in a terrific spot to fight with religious fundamentalists till the cows come home, because they think that way too. They're literalists.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:21 PM

Keep in mind that religion has little to do with morals--often nothing to do with it.

Religions have always been the tools of kings and emperors. Only the religion he approves of is allowed in his kingdom or empire. So it is a good cleansing tool whether it be ethnic or racial or religious or just a fat land grab.

The purpose of religion, if you bother to study it, has always been to apotheosize the king. He's the son of heaven, he is god's child on earth, he is crowned by god Himself. To doubt his is to condemn yourself to hell. Royals invented religion to control the masses with.

Defending something so slimey is funny on one hand and sad on the other. If a religion ever existed that taught you how to free yourself from the oppression of your ruler and to be your own king, you can bet that religion didn't last longer than it took the sovereign to send in his soldiers to kill and torture those who dared to practice it without his approval or consent.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:27 PM

And you've studied ALL of the worlds religions where??

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:30 PM

////That's what that statement meant to an ignorant Jewish tribesman who was bent on slaughtering people who weren't in his tribe, yes.

That's not what it means to me.////

Well, it was ignorant Jewish tribesmen who wrote that shit. Why bother to put a good face on it? It's crap. What are you going to sanitize next? Mein Kampf? If it's crap, it's crap. What do you do with crap? You flush it away. Dousing it with cologne and smearing on your body doesn't help you in any way. if you really want to free yourself, then free yourself. Call crap what it is--CRAP. And flush it or bury or something--get rid of it.

I have no problem with a pastor who wants to do away with the concept of hell as long as he understands that his whole reason for being a Christian has been eliminated by his own actions and beliefs. If he's prepared to accept that and move on then more power to him. But if he's going to preach New Age gobbledegook to justify keeping the religion around that he himself removed the justification for then he's an idiot and I have no respect for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:30 PM

Ever taken a look at Taoism? Buddhism? Sufiism?

Ever read some modern spiritual books?

What you say about kings using organized religions is dead right. They used them for political advantage and to control the masses. That's how most of our present governments use things like patriotism, the mass media, marketing, party politics, false propaganda of all sorts, fear tactics, even false flag military operations...and yes, even religion!

For political advantage, as a pretext for war, and to control the masses.

But that's not the purpose of genuine spiritual work. The purpose of genuine spiritual work is to improve yourself on the inner level...not to control anyone else on the outer level.

There have been some religions which actually did try to free the common people from the oppression of their rulers. One example was the Cathars in Southern France. As you say, the kings and churches of the time sent in armies to slaughter them, and they wiped them off the face of the Earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:31 PM

I think you may have a hostility problem, josepp. ;-) You seem to use this forum mostly to vent your rage about things.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:35 PM

But Wesley, he has no other Gods before himself....

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:51 PM

There is more goatfeathers spoken about religion, both pro and con, than probably any other subject in the universe.

A Lutheran pastor I know once held up a copy of the Bible and said, "Contrary to popular belief, this is NOT the Boy Scout Manual. It does NOT contain answers. It contains QUESTIONS!"

He went on to say that, "Anyone, including members of the clegy, who claims he knows the mind of God is talking sheer nonsense!"

Bright guy. He and I have had a lot of good chats.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:52 PM

////Ever taken a look at Taoism? Buddhism? Sufiism?///

Yes, I have. All those religions grew corrupt just like all the others.

////Ever read some modern spiritual books?////

Yes, but I prefer history books. Like read how and why Christianity came to Japan and you'll learn more about both Christianity and Buddhism than someone like you really wants to know.

////What you say about kings using organized religions is dead right. They used them for political advantage and to control the masses. That's how most of our present governments use things like patriotism, the mass media, marketing, party politics, false propaganda of all sorts, fear tactics, even false flag military operations...and yes, even religion!

For political advantage, as a pretext for war, and to control the masses.

But that's not the purpose of genuine spiritual work.////

You'll never find a "genuine spiritual work" in any religion on this planet. Whatever virtues they may have had at one time were squashed out of them a long time ago.

////The purpose of genuine spiritual work is to improve yourself on the inner level...not to control anyone else on the outer level.////

Then don't defend religion. That's not why it exists and as far back in history as you care to search you will find it has never had that purpose.

////There have been some religions which actually did try to free the common people from the oppression of their rulers. One example was the Cathars in Southern France. As you say, the kings and churches of the time sent in armies to slaughter them, and they wiped them off the face of the Earth.///

Ta-da!!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 09:00 PM

Here I sit so patiently
Waiting to find out what price
Ya have to pay to get out of
Going through all this shit twice

Mildly edited Gospel of Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 11:09 PM

If you don't know the price, old chum, it makes little sense to keep paying interest! :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:24 AM

I clean houses for a living. Now and again I find something that I could, very easily, slip into my pocket, and no one would be the wiser. Now and again it's something I'd like to own, like a lovely pair of earrings or a twenty dollar bill. I must then remind myself that God wouldn't approve. Hell doesn't really enter into it. Though I have asked God, now and again, what part of "lead us not into temptation", he does not understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: J-boy
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:57 AM

Will I go to hell for not believing in the tooth fairy, santa claus, or the easter bunny? It's all one and the same. I have no belief in any kind of imaginary daddy -in-the-sky. Religion is just one of many things our species needs to outgrow to give us at least a fighting chance at survival.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 01:44 AM

If heaven is being eternally and freely in the presence of God, then I suppose the converse is possible, intentionally rejecting the presence of God. More often, what people reject is the hypocrisy of religious people.
I guess I'm a universalist. the Rob Bell video makes a lot of sense to me.

Josepp says:

The purpose of religion, if you bother to study it, has always been to apotheosize the king. He's the son of heaven, he is god's child on earth, he is crowned by god Himself. To doubt his is to condemn yourself to hell. Royals invented religion to control the masses with.

You know, that's not what I learned when I got my degree in theology. I must have been sleeping the day they explained that. I suppose that for some people, God is all about condemnation and retribution and all that, but you will find God described as "loving and forgiving, slow to anger" no less than six times in the Old Testament. Here's an excerpt from Psalm 103:

The Lord is merciful and gracious,
slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.

He will not always accuse,
nor will he keep his anger for ever.

He does not deal with us according to our sins,
nor repay us according to our iniquities.

For some people, God may fit your oh-so-very-certain definition. But not for all.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:47 AM

IMHO, after the harmonisation of the principles of discrimination under UK law by the Equality Act 2010, that dismissal would be unlawful discrimination on the ground of religious belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:04 AM

Maybe so in the UK, Richard, but this guy was a pastor in North Carolina. I like to think of Methodists as progressive, but my friend the Methodist pastor got voted out of his job for opposing the war in Iraq and for supporting the rights of homosexuals.
So, now he's working for Catholics as a pastor to homeless people, which he feels is his true calling.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:31 AM

Buddhism is not a Religion. Not too many Religions would be happy with an approved admonition to their followers that says

"If you meet the Buddha on the road - kill him!"

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:34 AM

"Imaginary Daddy-in-the Sky". I feel that anyone who views religious people as having this image of God does not understand in any way a Faith. It's insulting in that it seems to label us as infantile. Similarly, the Tooth Fairy, Father Christmas, Easter Rabbit etc are not analogies of how we experience our God. I also find the expression 'Imaginary Friend' insulting, maybe deliberately so? If a person has no faith, I respect them just the same, why not? And I would certainly never use swear words ("crap", "go f*** yourself" etc) in a rational discussion about religion or any other thread. Is it necessary josepp?
I agree with everything Little Hawk has said on this thread, he shows a wise and informed tolerance and interest, even towards things he doesn't subscribe to.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 05:29 AM

Sorry Foolstroupe, Buddhism is a religion. Just because other religions might be uncomfortable with some of it's sayings is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:32 AM

Their followers call it a Philosophy of Life, not a Religion - They have no Deity! ***

In fact they say

"If you meet the Buddha on the road - kill him!"



*** They do have lots of invisible magical sky fairies (Hungry Ghosts and such), but they WORSHIP NONE of these! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:34 AM

Oh, and they also accept that their followers can be a member of any Religion eg, you can be a Christian Buddhist, a Muslim Buddhist,etc, just like to can be a Christian Mason or a Muslim Mason etc ... :-)

Not too many 'Religions' with their 'No other God before me' thesis can tolerate that!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:03 AM

It's still a feature of Oriental religions that they are non-exclusive. The early Christians followed this as well - till at least the fifth century the Jewish and Christian authorities were compalining of Christians worshipping in sysnagogues. And till less than a thousand years ago, religious meant belonging to a religious order (of which Buddhism has many).

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:08 AM

I suppose the Hell concept is the carrot and stick approach, laying it on with a trowel for the masses.

if people are more educated these days, perhaps they don't need the Hell bit after all.

There again, perhaps education leads to questioning in the broader sense, and then how will those who smile too much exert their influence over others?

M'Unlearned friend makes a good point over anti discriminatory laws here in The UK. Snag is, to profess a religious stance is to profess discrimination if you think about it long and hard enough. I have always laughed at the idea of a law to give people the right to bigotry and the rest of us to respect that.

Sod that for a lark.

Anyway, I am where the Methodists started it all happening tonight at a concert. Might go and have an argument with Wesley's statue if I have had enough pop by midnight....

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: kendall
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:16 AM

I'm a Deist. It's the only belief that makes sense to me.

Organized religion is based on fear, ignorance and ego.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:18 AM

"I think you may have a hostility problem"


Thinking problem:)

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Michael
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM

But to return to the 'original sin' in josepp's first post, and irrespective of all these fascinating discussions; if the priest is a member of a sect that believes in Hell and he denies it's existence then surely they are entitled to dispense with his services.(sorry pun not intended)
It's the same principal as Anglican clergy who do not accept women priests or bishops leaving and becoming Catholics, except that they leave voluntarily.

If a Secret Service employee refused to believe in secrecy the they would be justified in sacking him.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 11:25 AM

If one considers a Ministers/Priests position a job, then I suspect there is some expection that they will support important aspects of the product/brand? Few employees can thumb their noses at the boss.

If one looks at their position differently, realistic or not, I guess you may come up with a different conclusion.

However, if you do not believe in the product, or do so subjectively or selectively, what's the point of hanging around anyway? Though, unlike with car sales, I suspect getting alternative employment is a related field may present a challenge.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:09 PM

///Sorry Foolstroupe, Buddhism is a religion. Just because other religions might be uncomfortable with some of it's sayings is irrelevant.////

As someone who was born and raised a Buddhist but hasn't been one for many, many years, I'd have to say it is a religion also.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

Buddhism: Philosophy or Religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM

There are millions of religions out there. Everyone practices a few of them, whether he thinks he does or not. Only about 5 per cent of them are the ones fingered by you AS "religion", josepp. You are unconscious of the religion you practice, and it's just as rigid and silly as the ones you're obsessed with attacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM

In the US, there is legalized discrimination. The Boy Scouts are a perfect example. They booted a couple of boys for being agnostic and the courts upheld it saying the Boy Scouts are a private organization and can admit or dismiss whom they choose--IOW, we can unleash our bigotry on you and you must accept it. But if I fired one of the Scout leaders from his job because he had an anit-Obama sticker on his car--boy-oh-boy--you'd better believe he'd be screaming discrimination like a stuck pig.

But Michael is right in that when you belong to an organization that has a certain set of beliefs to espouse and you profess disagreement with any of those beliefs, then leave. If you don't leave, then teach all those beliefs and if you refuse then you're fired. Pretty straightforward.

////Josepp says:
The purpose of religion, if you bother to study it, has always been to apotheosize the king. He's the son of heaven, he is god's child on earth, he is crowned by god Himself. To doubt his is to condemn yourself to hell. Royals invented religion to control the masses with.

You know, that's not what I learned when I got my degree in theology.////

You don't think that people who teach crap are going to teach you that their crap is crap, do you?

Theologian: An uncommon individual who, though possessing finite abilities, has been called by God himself who, though possessing infinite abilities, requires the assistance of the former in explaining Himself to the rest of us.
---Donald Morgan


Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. ---Seneca the Younger

Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. ---Robert A. Heinlein

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. ---Galileo Galilei

I can doubt everything, except one thing, and that is the very fact that I doubt. ---Rene Descartes

Show me a population that is deeply religious, and I will show you a servile population, content with whips and chains, contumely and the gibbet, content to eat the bread of sorrow and drink the waters of affliction. ---H. Hubert Harrison

It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning. ---Bill Waterson

Nothing is more despicable than respect based on fear. ---Albert Camus

There is no hell. There is only France. ---Frank Zappa

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Seneca the Elder
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:58 PM

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. ---Seneca the Younger"

Seneca, get yer arse to bed!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM

Zappa could be right. France could become "a hell" if they don't keep a close eye on their many nuke plants.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:04 PM

It's great fun erecting Aunt Sallies, and then knocking them over...

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:13 PM

If you've got an erect Aunt Sally.............!

Someone was writing in the papers about a week ago that a lot of the nuclear plants were on the boundaries of tectonic plates, so since England is nowhere near any boundaries, maybe Britain should be building lots of nuclear plants to take advantage of the relative safety. Isn't most of Scotland on a different plate from England (we're just waiting for sufficient continental drift) and didn't I grow up in a city built on top of an extinct volcano (Arthur's Seat). I must admit that it was slightly worrying how they knew it was really extinct!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM

What the hell

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:40 PM

I really hate to interupt this conversation - but here are some comments from the minister who was fired. IF anyone is interested.

In his own words:



Chad Holtz.net

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:23 PM

The Egyptian word for the underworld was "Amenta" or "Hidden land" so Hel seems to be an extension of that mode of thought. How it ended up this bad place is a product of the Christian mind--a need to invoke fear as a means of control. Nobody knows what happens when we die or where we go if we go anywhere so it is hidden from us. That's all Hel is.

But when modern Christians say they don't believe in hell, they mean usually this "bad" place of eternal torment. I don't really care about Chad Holtz or what happened to him. As I said, he had a job to do for this church, he didn't want to do it, they canned him, tough shit, end of story.

My contention is that if you claim to be a Christian who does not believe in hell as this "bad" place of eternal torment, then why are you a Christian? That is what Jesus's so-called sacrifice supposedly saved you from--eternal damnation. If you don't believe in it, you don't believe in Jesus's mission. If you don't believe in Jesus's mission then you are not and cannot be a Christian.

I reject christianity for the same reason I reject buddhism: I don't believe either Jesus or Buddha were historical. When you make that connection, the entire religious system of both is negated and has to be completely redefined to retain any relevance. But there is a total lack of will in the adherents of each religion to do this. So religion is stuck in a rut and anybody who subscribes to those religions is stuck in a rut and that is billions of people and that many people stuck in a rut means the world is stuck in a rut.

Religion can't free you. That never was its purpose. If it was, there should be billions of enlightened people walking around in the world today. That isn't my experience of things, is it yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: kendall
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:37 PM

50% of the people I meet are below average in IQ

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:07 PM

////50% of the people I meet are below average in IQ////

And look at stats about such things as voting trends among the educated and less educated. Look at the numbers of people who believe in conspiracy theory tripe and then look at the level of education of the believers compared to non-believers.

But evern scarier is that it means little to be educated today because schools don't teach anything. I just did a quick google search on how many American high school students know when the Civil War occurred. One site said 60% did not know. Another said that 2/3rds did not know. Another said less than a third knew when the Civil War occurred. Another site said only 50% know when it occurred. I watched Leno Jaywalking segment where a guy thought Lincoln gave the Gettysburg Address in Paris in 1935. I knew a guy in high school who thought the Battle of Gettysburg happened in World War I. I knew a guy who didn't know when the Great Depression occurred (he guessed 1960).

Now how many of these types of people who encounter a religious system composed outmoded mush could have the critical faculties to recognize that fact? How many could be suckered into committing an atrocity in the name of this religion? I once asked a Christian that if the gospels were eyewitness accounts, who was it that witnessed the incident in the Garden of Gethsemane? He said that little questions like that have never bothered him.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:17 PM

funny how some people can get so worked up and abusive about what they are so sure is just a "sky fairy" story.

funny how no one should suffer discrimination and abuse except christians ,and especially if they believe the bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 12:00 AM

He wasn't fired for his beliefs. he was fired for boring the congregation shitless with his theologigal obsessions.

Can this idiot imagine what its like sitting through that load of bum?

One famous folksinger was reputed to be able to empty a room faster than a trapeze artist with diarrhoea. By and large church conregations don't run out to the bar screaming. However I bet this guy undid a lifetime of building up a congregation in his church in a few short weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: J-boy
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 12:50 AM

I believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Come forth and be touched by His Noodly Appendage unenlightened ones!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 12:25 PM

"I don't really care about Chad Holtz or what happened to him. "

So why on earth did you start this thread? Was it just an excuse to go off on a personal rant about stuff that bothers you?

Next time call your thread "I'm hacked off about stuff and want to complain".

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: kendall
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:14 PM

Jay Leno asked a woman if she knew the name of the ship that brought the Pilgrims to America and she had no clue. He gave her a hint, "It is also the name of a famous moving company." She replied "U HAUL"?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:00 PM

////So why on earth did you start this thread? Was it just an excuse to go off on a personal rant about stuff that bothers you?////

You are SLOW, boy, get with it!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:16 PM

///Jay Leno asked a woman if she knew the name of the ship that brought the Pilgrims to America and she had no clue. He gave her a hint, "It is also the name of a famous moving company." She replied "U HAUL"?///

I understand that they only show the shockingly stupid responses but how could anyone think Lincoln lived in the 20th century?? The local news did something similar a few years back--they had a newscaster go around on 4th of July to people gathered to watch the fireworks that night and have them sing the first verse of the Star-Spangled Banner. Oh my god!! I don't know if they thought it would turn out like a Jaywalking segment but, boy, did it ever. These are Americans and they can't sing their own national anthem. Yet they vote. Once he asked an 18-year-old woman what were the Twin Cities. She had no idea. So he said that they're in Minnesota. She couldn't even guess a wrong city--no clue at all. "What about the Olsen Twins" asked Leno, "Ever heard of them?" Her face brightened immediately: "Oh, yeah! Mary Kate and Ashley!" she said as though she was sure to get points for that one.

I was in an art museum once and there was this big painting showing the Immaculate Conception and a mother was explaining to her daughter, who looked to be about 10, what the Immaculate Conception was all about. "Is that story really true?" the girl asked.

"Of course, it's true!" the mother scolded her. I had to bite my tongue and just keep walking. What's funny was that a child knows there's something wrong with the story and an adult doesn't. Sometimes I wonder if a crazed gunman opened fire and killed some of these people if that would really be much of a tragedy. Seems far more of a tragedy that they were ever born.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,alan whittle
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM

oh come on! being stupid, or having mad ideas shouldn't disqualify you from living.

I'm not too bright, and i have daft ideas. it would be very sad if a gunman did way with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:14 PM

Jay Leno was immaculately conceived?

While he does have a big jaw, and it could have caused stress at birth, he was more likely the product of a cesarean section.

After all, Jay is no Antonio Federici.
Antonio Federici

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: kendall
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:21 PM

We must remember that 50% of the people we meet are below average.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:34 PM

"He said that little questions like that have never bothered him."

Probably because he knows that it's mythology.

One does not need to believe that mythical stories are literal history to derive value out of them. Have you ever read any Joseph Campbell? Great television series with Campbell and Bill Moyers some years ago. Called "Myth and Metaphor," as I recall.

Campbell said that where most religions go off the rails is when they start believing that mythology is historical fact. "But" he points out, "there are great truths to be found in mythology."

It's quite possible to believe in an all pervading intelligence or order in the universe, something that one might call "God," without believing in a Cranky Old Man who wears a dirty bed sheet, lives in a solid gold condominium on Arcturus Four, keeps ledgers on the sins of everybody on earth, throws thunderbolts at people who piss him off, and marks the fall of every sparrow.

Nor is it necessary to deny the solid evidence provided by astronomers, geologists, paleontologists, biochemists, and biologist and insist that the world is only six thousand years old in order to be a very religious person, one who sincerely cares sincerely about others. I know many such.

What kind of weird people have YOU been hanging out with? And WHY, fer Chrissake!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:35 PM

////What kind of weird people have YOU been hanging out with? And WHY, fer Chrissake!??////

I served in the United States military with them--that's why.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:05 PM

I don't believe in hell. But I do enjoy tellin' various indiduals to go there. Ook! Ook! ;-D It's just a figger of speech, see? You don't have to take it literal. Just blow, vamoose, hit the road, get lost...and basically dust! Got it?

And go to hell if ya don't like it.

Nobody can fire me for not believin' in hell, cos I am self-employed. And they can't fire me for tellin' folks to go to hell either.

The other day I heard this sweet old lady say, "Merciful Heavens!" when her poodle ran out in the street and nearly got run over. She wasn't talkin' about literal heavens either. She was expressin' the stress of the moment in a figger of speech.

Now you take them jarheads in the military...they have gotta believe in a shitload of much weirder stuff than hell or else they wouldn't enlist in the first place, get abused by jarhead sergeants, follow orders from rockheaded commanders, and ship out to distant foreign places to kill other poor saps who believe in similarly weird stuff, only from a separate set of bosses and commanders.

It don't matter what you believe, there will be a lot of other folks who believe stuff you don't, and if yer a real stupid jerk you will detest them for it, hate them for it, and wish they was dead. Some of them might feel exactly the same about you. If so, watch yer back, cos ya never know which psycho might strike first...you...or them.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: death by whisky
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:28 PM

Havent been for a while, but its reassurring to see nothing much has changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:40 PM

Amidst the strife and turmoil, may I suggest he wasn't fired for not believing in hell; rather, he was fired for saying so out loud. There's a big difference, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:50 PM

He was fired for deviatin' from the official line. The same thing coulda happened if he was in the military, in corporate management, workin' for Fox TV, or servin' as Secretary of State or coachin' a baseball team. They was worried about him rockin' the boat and upsettin' too many people in the organization, that's all.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:54 PM

One of the first times the fuck#ng monkey and I have agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:58 PM

Yeah. Well, even a busted clock is right twice a day, ain't it?

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:06 AM

True. BUT, a man with two watches never knows what time it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:38 AM

You got a point there.

Little Hawk keeps tellin' me it's "now"...as if that was any help!   He is some kinda weird cat. He reads them wacky meditation books instead of checkin' out some good literature.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:40 AM

"I served in the United States military with them--that's why."

And they're ALL that way? ALL of them? Now, that IS weird!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:58 AM

Would you PLEASE stop fighting with "that monkey," 999?

-Joe Offer, Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:09 AM

Look at the sermon. Its boring. Could you sit through that?

if this guy had his own tv station, he could turn narcolepsy into the biggest killer since The Black Death.

God knows what they taught him at priest college, but they should have got round to pointing out that his first year essays are not what is required as pulpit fodder.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:12 AM

But Joe, I thought you didn't mind a bit of 'monkeying around'.... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:09 AM

Ghosts, Gods and Aliens

Good looking people


So, do more "good looking people" believe in a God and/or a hell?

Is something being hidden?

Does the governments know more about hell, then they are telling us?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:17 AM

Anyone know how this situation ended?


Evil monkeys

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:49 AM

///Amidst the strife and turmoil, may I suggest he wasn't fired for not believing in hell; rather, he was fired for saying so out loud. There's a big difference, imo.///

Thin line. He wouldn't have said it if he didn't believe it. But, again, I AGREE with his church in that he should have been fired. If I hire you to teach a certain set of beliefs and you won't do it, I'm firing you--period. I don't care what your reasons are, you didn't do what I hired you to do.

I just used the story as an excuse to ask why any Christian would not believe in hell without then asking himself, "Then what did Jesus save me from?"

If the answer is "nothing" then why be a Christian?

It also ties into the old question, "Is God an all-loving god or a vengeful god?" Christians can't answer that because they're really talking about themselves. "Are we all-loving and all-forgiving or are we a wrathful and vengeful people?" Obviously, they don't know either.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:03 PM

Well Josepp, the way I see it is this. God is God - all powerful -all knowing.

So he has probably designed a hydroflubial valve which by passes earthly considerations and conundrums of logic - the like of which you present us with.

Thats in my more spiritual moments.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

FYI, it's a flux capacitor powered by dilithium.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: saulgoldie
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM

From what I read of this thread, it has pretty much been about the fine points of religious beliefs. However, the original issue seems to me to be more about whether or not a person with some official standing in any given religious order is permitted his or her own interpretation of "the gospel."

Some religious orders are more doctrinaire, and some are more open to discussion and disagreement. I suggest that that is the issue in this case, not whether or not he is correct in his notion of hell. I suggest that if the pastor does not like the way the church operates that he find an order that is more accepting of new ideas or different interpretations. Noone is chained by their religion. We are all free to choose the one that suits us best. IMHO.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon, visiting La Crosse
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM

The trouble with the idea of hell is the eternity of it.

There are some people I would love to see fry in hell—for a while.

I think I read somewhere, in the writings of some famous ancient Christian, that the "saved" souls in heaven are able to look down and watch the "damned" souls in hell being tortured, and they enjoy it.

I guess it's possible (according to orthodox Christian thinking) to go to heaven without being a fully enlightened Christian, but once you get there, you will be fully enlightened. That means you will know the truth, possess complete wisdom, and understand why God did everything he did. That's one of the blessings you will receive in heaven. ("We'll understand it better by and by.") You will understand (although you may not understand it now) why sinners (and that includes people who aren't any worse than us, but are "unredeemed") deserve to go to hell. And that understanding will make you happy to see them there.

Well, I don't buy it. I think I could watch Hitler burning in hell in agony for maybe five minutes. Then I'd say, "Jeez, give the guy a break. Maybe he's learned his lesson."

I may not be the most compassionate and forgiving guy in the world, but I at least think compassion and forgiveness are virtues.

What's the use of believing in a god, if I don't think that god is more virtuous than I am?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:43 PM

"" I think I could watch Hitler burning in hell in agony for maybe five minutes. Then I'd say, "Jeez, give the guy a break. Maybe he's learned his lesson.""

It's revealing how many well meaning and compassionate folks tuned in to You Tube a few years back to see the video of Sadam Hussein hang. Then there are the folks who must stop at car accident scenes, to view the dead and injured.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:29 PM

People are skipping around my question:

If you call yourself a Christian but you do not believe in hell, then what did Jesus save you from? What did his sacrifice mean then? Or was it a sacrifice at all? Maybe it never even happened.

You need to ask yourself that otherwise, you're just another fundie who doesn't let reason and intellect get in the way of his worshipin'.

What is the role of Jesus in your Christianity if you do not believe in hell?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

`If I hire you to teach a certain set of beliefs and you won't do it, I'm firing you--period.`

It would never happen. I likely would tell you to get fucked before the interview was over.




Ed T, I attended over a few hundred MVCs as both a medical responder and as a firefighter. I recall one scene where a woman and her husband just `had` to see it all. We`d just arrived and we`re gonna need spreaders and cutters to extricate and we`d not at the time had the time to get tarps up to shield the casualties from view by rubberneckers. The woman was tossing her cookies and the husband was very very pale. I doubt he will ever look at an accident scene for the rest of his life. Her too. I guess they never seen someone beheaded before.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:06 PM

////`If I hire you to teach a certain set of beliefs and you won't do it, I'm firing you--period.`

It would never happen. I likely would tell you to get fucked before the interview was over./////

Exactly. That's what this pastor should have done. If he didn't believe in what they wanted him to espouse, then he should have told them to get fucked. But once you agree, you have to do it or I'm firing your ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 05:57 PM

As a sort of adjunct to this discussion, the Bishop of Durham, UK, David Jenkins, declared that Jesus was not resurrected physically "like a conjuring trick with bones", did not walk on water and was not born of a virgin at all. After two protesters shouting "Heretic!" were ejected from the ceremony, he was duly made Bishop, and continued in office until his retirement. I've often wondered what the Archbishop of Canterbury thought of all this. After all, I imagine the tenets of the Anglican Church include the Resurrection, Virgin Birth and the Miracles. Apparently, Jenkins was a great success as Bishop of Durham!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:08 PM

"Exactly. That's what this pastor should have done. If he didn't believe in what they wanted him to espouse, then he should have told them to get fucked. But once you agree, you have to do it or I'm firing your ass".

First of all Chad Holtz was NOT a pastor. He was a student pastor. Big difference. Even HE don't think he was fired. Read his blog for yourself. He was NEVER expected to be at that church for any length of time. Students only spend a couple of years in that position and then move on.

IF it matters to anyone.

Now get back to your regularly scheduled argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:06 PM

OK, the time has come to sum it up:
He was "fried" for not believing in hell

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:21 PM

I'm not sure that David Jenkins' reported sayings in the tabloids, what he actually said, and what he believed are necessarily the same. Like many academic theologians, (including Rowan Williams and Joseph Ratzinger) he could be quoted out of context from densely argued papers to give the impression that he was saying the opposite of what he really meant. Having said that, I once heard him say that one of his greatest achievemnts was getting theology argued about in pubs,

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM

Why not pub church?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:29 PM

It beats Bingo?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:32 PM

Excellent Ed, finally some good reasons to go to church -- door prizes and beer, especially if Jesus is buying.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:31 PM

"If you call yourself a Christian but you do not believe in hell, then what did Jesus save you from? What did his sacrifice mean then? Or was it a sacrifice at all? Maybe it never even happened."

I don't call myself a Christian. But if I did, that wouldn't necessarily mean that I believe in hell. Many Christians don't. And it wouldn't even necessarily mean that I think Jesus has saved me from something. Many Christians do think that, but I think you'd find that some think of Jesus as a teacher rather than as a saviour. What did his sacrifice mean? There are many opinions about that, but some would not even look at it as "his sacrifice", they'd look at it as a tragic and unjust punishment that was inflicted on an innocent spiritual teacher by a corrupt old religious hierarchy who were just protecting their turf against new ideas he was presenting. Period.

Maybe it never happened? Yeah sure...anything's possible. ;-) It seems very doubtful to me that it never happened, but on the other hand, we can't prove it did or didn't, can we? So if you want to question whether it happened, that's entirely up to you. (shrug)

I regard Jesus as having had exactly the same role that any good spiritual teacher has, which is simply to help counsel people as to how they can become better, happier, wiser people. Better in their behaviour, better in their self-discipline, better in their treatment of others, better in their treatment of themselves, more positive in their attitude and behaviour. That's the basic purpose of all sincere spiritual teachers.

Their followers are the ones who take their simple and reasonable teachings, complicate them in all kinds of strange ways after they're gone, start up new religions full of rules and power structures, and generally (unwittingly) do the best they can to misdirect and screw up the simple teachings that the spiritual teacher gave, and that's what I see as having happened in the case of the Christian religion (and many others). It's the followers who are the problem, generally speaking, not the original teacher who started the whole thing off.

There have been thousands of spiritual teachers. Maybe millions. Jesus is one who became very well known, because his followers succeeded in founding a major faith. Buddha is another such. Lao-Tse is another, though in a rather different way...Taoism isn't an organized religion, it's a philosophy. It has no ruling heirarchy. Zoroaster was another. Most of them you have never heard of and never will, because their followers were few and they did not build their teachings into a major religion.

Any follower who claims that his chosen teacher or prophet is the ONLY one is wrong, IMO. Any follower who claims that his chosen teacher or prophet is the FOREMOST one is wrong, IMO.

But that's what people tend to do. They always figure their way is best. It's the old human ego at work, just like when someone thinks his country or his political party is "the best". As common as selfishness, greed, and other such well known character flaws.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:21 PM

///I don't call myself a Christian. But if I did, that wouldn't necessarily mean that I believe in hell. Many Christians don't. And it wouldn't even necessarily mean that I think Jesus has saved me from something. Many Christians do think that, but I think you'd find that some think of Jesus as a teacher rather than as a saviour.///

But his death and resurrection have to have a central meaning in Christianity. You can't say he was just a teacher and that his resurrection didn't really mean anything--as though people rise from the dead everyday. It has to mean something very important and very central to what it means to be a Christian and it currently only does if the Christian believes in hell.

///What did his sacrifice mean? There are many opinions about that, but some would not even look at it as "his sacrifice", they'd look at it as a tragic and unjust punishment that was inflicted on an innocent spiritual teacher by a corrupt old religious hierarchy who were just protecting their turf against new ideas he was presenting. Period.////

Not good enough. It's dismissing the resurrection and that it absolutely essential to Christianity. It can't mean nothing.

////I regard Jesus as having had exactly the same role that any good spiritual teacher has, which is simply to help counsel people as to how they can become better, happier, wiser people.///

I can see you didn't read my post about Jesus being a lousy moral teacher so I'll repost it here and maybe you can try and provide some answers this time:

As a moral teacher, Jesus had to be one of the worst--2nd only to Mohammed.

Strip Jesus of his divinity, most of what he teaches is pure nonsense and pure status quo. There was nothing revolutionary in what he taught. For example, he exhorts his followers to resist not evil (Mt 5:39). If we don't resist evil then we must, by necessity, succumb to it. He stated that if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off (Mt 5:30). Who in their right mind would steal something and then blame their hand for the theft and cut it off? Jesus stated that the slave who does not do his master's bidding "shall be beaten with many stripes" (Lk 12:47). Where is the revolutionary message that slavery is wrong and must be abolished? Nowhere. I would place Lincoln as superior to this Jesus. Jesus also stated that he did not come to bring peace "but a sword" (Mt 10:34). He claimed to he came to turn family against one another (Mt 10:35). Jesus also claimed that he who does not hate his family and himself cannot be his follower (Lk 14:26). And who can possibly explain Jesus' bizarre statement in Mark 4:11-12?

Even the Golden Rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is neither original nor particularly moral. The Old Testament already has the Golden Rule in it and Confucius was preaching it centuries before Jesus allegedly did. If the only teachings of any value spoken by Jesus can already be found in earlier religions, what the hell do we need Christianity for??

////There have been thousands of spiritual teachers. Maybe millions. Jesus is one who became very well known, because his followers succeeded in founding a major faith. Buddha is another such. Lao-Tse is another, though in a rather different way...Taoism isn't an organized religion, it's a philosophy. It has no ruling heirarchy. Zoroaster was another. Most of them you have never heard of and never will, because their followers were few and they did not build their teachings into a major religion.////

They became major religion because some king or emperor made it so. If you think this wasn't the case with Christianity, I would suggest you read about Constantine. He exalted Christianity despite being a bloodthirsty sonofabitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:42 PM

Hell's Bells
1 for $4.99
3 for $12.99

THat whole premise about Jesus (or his stunt double) having saved people from hell in the afterlife is bizarre and something I am sure he never said. Hell on earth perhaps.
I've heard the rumor that he sacrificed himself for our sins to be forgiven and our suffering to be put on his shoulders. Even assuming he was a master craftsman of martyrdom it was still an imperial fascist government that condemned him.

Too bad JC wasn't literate enough to write his own self help book and avoid all the confusion brought about by transcriptions, translations, transvestites, transitions, model trans and trans fats.

If God is indeed literate and capable of writing a coherent sentence, I bet there would still be some jerk off editor that would add political spin and power hierarchies that would ruin the whole book... like they did in the Bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:51 AM

I'm not trying to say things that are "good enough" to satisfy you, josepp. What a false hope that would be! This isn't a win or lose game with a prize at the end. ;-) I'm simply telling you what I think, that's all. I'm glad to see you're giving a wee bit of thought to it, and I am not out to prove that I'm "right" and you're "wrong"...just telling you what I think, and suggesting various other ways of interpreting things, that's all.

Yeah, sure "his death and resurrection have to have a central meaning in Christianity". Absolutely. And people interpret that in various ways too, depending on their viewpoint. Fundamentalists interpret it literally. Many others may interpret it allegorically, symbolically. I'm not here to say that one of them has to be RIGHT...but there are allegorical and symbolic possibilities.

For instance, one meaning of such a tale is to symbolize something that happens to ALL people, not just to Jesus. That is, it may be that a human consciousness survives physical death (of the body) and is therefore resurrected, and the resurrection tale of Jesus may have something to do with that.

Again you'll say "not good enough"... ;-) So what? I'm not trying to meet your conditions here. I'm suggesting looking at something on several symbolic levels, not just one.

I think there were other popular religious tales around long before Jesus about the death and resurrection of a sacred figure in this or that tradition. Sometimes that figure was seen as the "Son of God (the Divine)". Well, some would assert that it's a statement about all humanity, not about one man...that we are all the sons and daughters of God.

Yes, I saw your previous comments about Jesus supposedly being a "lousy moral teacher", but I don't agree, because you're way too literal. The main reason we disagree is that you are looking ONLY at the Bible accounts (which are in many ways questionable), and I doubt that you've done any other alternative reading about Jesus. There are many other interesting sources. But you wouldn't look for them, because you're not inclined to.

You have started from a basic hostile emotional premise that's totally negative and reactive. You already detest the Christian religion on principle, and all you're really out for is to find any more fuel you can throw on the fire of your intense dislike for Christianity...and for religion in general. You want MORE stuff to get angry about. And you want to vent here. That is not going to lead you to read any of the vast number of more subtle or thoughtful philosophical books that are out there about spirituality, Jesus or anything else. Why would you? You're against it all on principle.

All you're going to do is go to the Bible, a bunch of oooold books written by a bunch of individual men back then who were trying to sell a new religion to the masses of their time. They spoke in the terms they thought would be saleable to people at that time. That's why so much of it doesn't sound very believable now. If they were doing it now, they'd put things in different terms.

I'm far more interested in present-day spiritual writings than I am in stuff written almost 2,000 years ago, because the present day stuff is written in today's vernacular, in today's terms of reference, with full awareness of modern science and modern thought, and it's far more applicable to our times.

But, hey, even talking to you about this stuff is just a silly waste of my time. I'm just doing it because I happened to open this window and get hooked in momentarily. It won't change anything, and I know it. You will just go on launching these hostile attacks on religion for the rest of your natural life, denigrating people who practice it despite knowing nothing about them, mouthing off to the world in general about how much better you are than them, and how they really don't deserve to live.

And you'll manage to hurt a few people...piss off a few more...charge up a few angry venters like yourself...and generally spread a little more pain and prejudice and hostility in the world to absolutely no purpose at all. And you'll get to feel special for doing it too! Wowee.

Well, have fun wallowing in it, man. Have a jolly old time in the dark emotional sinkhole you have chosen. I have already wasted a little chunk of my own time here, and I think it might really be time to do something more useful instead...like practice my guitar. Take a bath. Anything, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: open mike
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:26 AM

I think that some christians do more to keep the devil alive by keeping his name alive and mentioning him frequently...this gives him power and presence.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:49 AM

As far as I can see hell is the everyday sadnesses that happen to people, hunger, pain, hard work, no work, injustices it can't get much worse than this so to my mind this is it.

To be fired for not believing in hell sort of reminds me of the days way back in time when people were tortured on the rack or put in a ducking stool until they relented.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:06 AM

Dunno, but I do know where Hell is at the moment.

It is being on the kop at Hillsborough on a Saturday afternoon.

See, every religion has a Hell, even the true religion of football.

(More serious than you think. Bear with me.)

I have a usual stance of "if you believe in the old dude with the big beard and a son of his who can defy the laws of physics, excuse me whilst I laugh." BUT to be fair to them, they need faith to sustain their belief.

In the same way, I know Sheffield Wednesday are not the best / only team in the world if I thought logically, but there again, I have faith.

So it's not my failure to understand faith, just that I have the true faith. UP THE OWLS!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,alan Whittle
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:59 AM

Ye have heard it in the scripture, if thy right buttock offend thee -doing really smelly farts - then cut it off.

Verily I say unto thee, turn the other cheek!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:04 AM

"What is the role of Jesus in your Christianity if you do not believe in hell?"

Why is that your business?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 09:53 AM

Wouldn't discrediting your clergyman because he doesn't believe in Hell be roughly analogous to discrediting your MD because he refuses to treat you by attaching leeches?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM

This "cherry picking" from the Bible amuses me.

Many modern Christians will say that they don't need organised religion BUT those "organised religions" were the ones who produced and shaped the writings on which they base their faith.

I would go as far as to say that anybody who believes in Christianity, Islam etc should not be allowed to lead governments.
Government demands clear, logical - and unclouded - thinking, and, I'm afraid ( very afraid! ) that followers of Christianity, Islam etc certainly fail that test!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 10:20 AM

"I would go as far as to say that anybody who believes in Christianity, Islam etc should not be allowed to lead governments. "

Good luck with that one.

But since you are one of the Clear Thinkers - why not run for office yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

////Why is that your business?////

It is if I want it to be. You don't answer and I could care less if you do, but I'll damn well ask it if I want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:51 PM

Honestly, I don't make them up!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM

You have too much angst in your life, josepp. Have you had your bp checked lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:20 PM

"////Why is that your business?////
"It is if I want it to be."

In the 3D world, that's a very efficient method of getting popped in the snoot a lot.

SPLAT!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:08 PM

"See, every religion has a Hell..."

No. Most don't. And some of those that do often attempt to control their followers to extract money from them or to incite their followers to perform acts of violence and even subserivient sacrifice in the form of death in battle for monetary gain for themselves.

Religion isn't bad. People are. Especially many religious people.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM

////You have too much angst in your life, josepp. Have you had your bp checked lately?////

I have no angst in my life at all. I love talking about this stuff and could do it all day if it didn't cut into my other leisure time such as writing and practicing my music. I never go anywhere in my car without taking books with me--just in case I'll have the time to read them. Then I like to start topics on stuff I read about. If that's angst, I'd like more of it. There is nothing that is off-limits to me. I'll discuss it if I want to. You have the choice to participate or not. I mean you can come here and discuss something interesting or you can come here and get asked to pray for some catter's Uncle Charley in the hospital after his 3rd heart attack. It's always up to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM

At the church I sometimes go to with my wife (Central Lutheran Church on Seattle's Capitol Hill), the only time I've ever heard the word "hell" is when the custodian accidentally spilled the mop bucket.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:28 PM

The dead sea scrolls are not complete. Some was actually used to keep warm by burning them in the cave.

After the 1st 3 humdred years, accounts of what was said and done were already in jeopardy of crass editing. By 700 years the premise of the old testament and the reforms and teaching by JC were corrupted wholesale by those who sought to corporatize the religion and assign executive seating at the organized stock holder meetings.
The ceo popesa were now able to banish women for the club and do all sorts of profitable things in the name of... Uno hoo

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:37 PM

////the reforms and teaching by JC were corrupted wholesale////

Proof please.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:17 PM

"Proof please"

It's called the New Testament.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:49 PM

The New Testament is not a historical document and is not proof of anything. Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:38 AM

The practising part is good, josepp. The 'every thread you're on becoming a fight' ain't so good, imo. I've heard your music and it's not bad. bfn

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: J-boy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:42 AM

Crom laughs at your Gods. Do you not know the riddle of steel?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 04:16 AM

Riddle of steel? Actually, my riddle is of iron and forms part of my wood burning stove.

I wonder what this thread will end up debating, once we all forget the original post? Oh, silly me. Faith versus ridicule.

T'was ever thus.


Mind you, I do like the idea that if you believe in your imaginary friend, you shouldn't become a politician. Snag is, would I be barred for believing in my football team? Would we all be barred for believing musical talent and Simon Cowell acolytes are mutually exclusive?

You see, religion is just one belief system. Its followers however use it as a moral code. Fair enough. But far too many believe you and I should too. And that just wont do.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM

If there is a hell, can pubic hair survive in this place, or is it just too hot (except in the winter, of course)?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:12 AM

Ed - It burns - but then it grows back and burns again.....

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:20 AM

You think THAT'S tough, y'oughta try A-200, the best treatment for crabs. Talk about burn. Yes, it kills the crabs, but it leaves a burn on yer nuts that won't quit for a few hours. Pshaw on simple flame. I found out the hard way in the 1960s. If I ever catch the little bastards again, I'll simply use a blowtorch and be done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:21 PM

Holtz can consider himself lucky. Who wants to work for a boss like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

Hell, they don't fire preachers for not believing in evolution.

Sure seems unfair to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:50 PM

Home treatment for body crabs:

""chop and liquify 10,000 habanero peppers, mix with the oil of 5,000 eucalyptus leaves, add turpentine, distill into a few drops of liquid pain and mix with petroleum jelly"".

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:00 PM

Ed T: at what stage does one light it?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:07 PM

My "full figured" female neighbour once said to me:
""Where are all the men they say are into bigger woman? Hell, I can never seem to find 'em""

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM

What kind of place is, and what creatures live in, a parliament from Hell?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

Would there be termites and woodpeckers in Hell?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 05:12 PM

Only very naughty termites and woodpeckers.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:45 PM

The standard Christian story goes that Jesus went to hell for three days upon dying. The gospels, Matthew, I believe, stated however that he was to spend three days "in the heart of the earth" and I don't remember Paul saying anything about Christ going to hell for three days, only that he rose after that amount of time.

Do you, as a Christian, believe that Jesus spent three days in Hell? If not, what, in your opinion, is meant by "the heart of the earth"? Personally, I don't think "the heart of the earth" refers to any hell at all. But then what was it a reference to?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:02 PM

I was wrong. Hell exists. Take a look:

Hell

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM

How is it possible that Mick Jagger couldn't get any satisfaction?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:10 AM

Phew, I scanned the title as 'Fined for not believing in Hull', which I think is on the statute books of the East Riding........

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

If someone said to me, "you've got to believe stuff or you're fired", I'd say, "give me a list of stuff you want me to believe in." Then, of course, secretly NOT believe it!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:00 PM

""Why would Satan punish people in hell? Wouldn't he reward them instead for being evil(being just like him)?""

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:37 PM

Cos rumour has it that Satan's a bad lot and enjoys sticking people up the bum with a red hot poker. Anyway - that's his job.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:46 PM

"The New Testament is not a historical document"

Presumably you mean a history book as is currently understood. The New Testament is a historical document, just like Beowulf and de Bello Gallica.