BS: Arab World Post Revolution?

Subject: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:50 PM

So the myth of the Jihadist Islamic middle east whose only desire is to discomfit America is wrong?

What do the insurgents think? What can we offer them? Why should they believe what the west says?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:38 PM

All they want is what everyone else wants... A decent paying job commiserate to their educational levels...

What we have all over the world is the same story... Educated people with no opportunities... And income inequality... Same goes for the US...

This is a world wide revolution and the US is next!!! In other words: no more Boss Hog sending jobs overseas... If it takes driving a stake thru the heart of Boss Hog, so be it... He should be smart enough to figure it out but then again??? No of his predecessors did...

And the beat goes on and the Mubaraks, Gadaffis and the Boss Hogs never ever get it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:11 PM

Why would one think they would want what the west hast to offer ... why should they trust the west .... what they want is to have control of their own destiny .... after a century of being manipulated by the western nations.

The revolution is not about the mideast wanting t be like the western world.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 11:54 PM

I think they want honest and representative government. Government independent of foreign influence and control. Jobs. Food. Education. And civil rights.

I sympathize with them entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:19 PM

Don't they also want Islam to be in charge?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:37 PM

They are Muslims. That's a given. But there are a vast range of opinions and attitudes present in a cross-section of the Muslim population throughout the world, just as there are a vast range of opinions and attitudes present in a cross-section of the western European and North American population, most of whom came out of the Christian tradition. Would it be fair to say that "we want Christendom to be in charge" (as if that really means a damn thing)?

Look, if you were born in those countries, kendall, you'd be a Muslim too. So what? They don't all grow horns and have tails, for God's sake. They aren't all Wahabi fundamentalists. They don't think as a single monolith. Being Muslim doesn't mean you can't think independently about politics, education, economic matters, national policy, and all the other normal stuff that people think about and make decisions based upon.

This business of casting all Islamic people as some sort of world threat is nothing more than the sort of crude stereotyping the Nazis used on Jews, leftists, and Gypsies, in my opinion. It's a fear tactic meant to panic the western public into supporting wars of choice against Muslim populations.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:57 PM

I think Little Hawk is essentially correct.
The change is being speeded by the communication revolution. Cell phones and the internet provide a window on the world. Television shows us supposedly uneducated peasants in outer bushland with cell phones to their ears and staring at computer and TV screens. Times they are a-changing.

Also thanks to global corporations, even our much maligned Boss Hog, spreading jobs around the world; people with full stomachs have time to think and learn (of course the developments are uneven and always will remain so).

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 02:00 PM

And today the world watches the Cambridge-Oxford race on the Thames.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:23 PM

I fear, that in reality land, modern communications are being used to manipulate both the peasants and the youth.

They appear to be in about the same position as we were in the fifties......we believed all the shit....and so do they!

Little Hawk....I know you always think the best of all people, but you cant just write off Kendall's comment by asking what we would do.


The power of the Mullahs is very great, and even moderate Islam is an unforgiving and intolerant creed, without the philisophical aspects of Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:55 PM

One in ten Egyptians are actually Christians. And they were involved in making the revolution the same as the Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:15 PM

Philosophical aspects of Christianity?
Christianity was an intolerant and unforgiving creed, witness the destruction of the Cathars, heretics burned at the stake, trampling of native religions, etc., etc. It has improved somewhat in the last three centuries, although trampling of native beliefs and customs seems to have persisted until about 50 years ago.

Our mayor here in Calgary, a Muslim, doesn't preach jihad, nor do millions of other Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM

There are many who fear Muslim theocracies similar to Iran and Saudi Arabia...and how the Taliban wants to run Afghanistan, but it is possible to have a mostly Muslim state which does NOT practice terrorism......and remember, there are Christians who would turn the USA into a fundamental theocracy if they could. Now THAT would be interesting to have a 'president' and congress who sincerely thought Muslim states were inherently enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:08 AM

One factor that weighs against establishment of theocracies in post-revolution Arab societies is that most Arabs have a pretty low opinion of the government of Iran. They've seen the same types of peaceful protests that have occurred in their own countries brutally suppressed in Iran. The majority attitude seems to be "If theocracy hasn't worked in Iran, why would it work here?"

That doesn't mean theocracies won't develop in some countries. If civil governments that can provide for society's basic needs aren't established within a reasonable time, the door will be open for anyone with a convincing plan to do so. People will be more than willing to forget democratic ideals and accept a theocracy or autocracy if it means the difference between eating and starving.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:36 AM

Let us hope the Women of the Middle East will be allowed to be considered equal citizens in ALL countries, allowed onto the streets in all countries right alongside men, no longer covered from head to foot, unless they so choose to be.

Until that time comes, some countries in the Middle East will continue to go nowhere.....

Let us also hope that strong, brave women such as Wafa Sultan will now be allowed to live their lives in peace, free from fear of being murdered, of having her children murdered, purely because she chose to speak out to and against the bullies who've ruled The State of Islam for so long...

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:30 AM

The religion aspect is interesting.

Nobody says "Follow me! I want to be the one with the bullet proof Merc, billions in Switzerland, a pad in London and high class prostitutes for a change!"

No, they say "I will ensure the prophesies of the scriptures come true for all of you!" Notwithstanding of course that the prophesies are not supposed to come true. That's the point of religion, jam tomorrow.

Sadly, such a stance can indeed turn on you. Also, you end up being hamstrung with the constraints of said religion, which in the case of the Arab world is predominantly Islam. So the wishes of the West regarding democracy and freedom for all are not worth the speeches they were formed on.

The dictators are shitting themselves because it is one thing to keep the masses poor so they don't have the means to oust you, but international information about how the rest of the world lives is cheap and easy to get hold of. Mobile phones nearly all get web pages these days and access is easy. The dictators allowed it not realising what they had done...

So the future? Hopefully post dictatorship governments realise the need for a social program for their population and an open society to keep the West off their backs. After all, if they are lucky enough to have oil, they need the West, whether they like our hypocrisy or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:49 AM

Cynical bastard that I am, I expect that they will just wind up with different totalitarian thugs running the various countries.

Whether they are organised on political, ethnic, religious, or quasi-religious bases is immaterial.

Ths is the historical pattern for the region, and I don't see any reason why it would change - and don't try to tell me that the people have any understanding of, or desire for, real democracy, which I think they see as weakness.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 10:39 AM

I would still rather the ordinary people be brave to show their discontent against totalitarian leaders than not at all. Gadaffi is just a power greedy bully that is not what Islam is supposed to be about. It is hopeful to see people getting the courage to stand up against regimes like that. Whatever replaces the old regimes people have shown that they won't alway cow down and be prepared to accept bad treatment and brutality.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM

Like Gadaffi or not (and I don't) there can be no doubt that the money wealth of most Libyans increased greatly since he came to power.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM

Bobert, this is priceless: A decent paying job commiserate to their educational levels

One of the best "Freudians" I've seen in a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab World Post Revolution?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:52 PM

If we look at the foreign policy of the U.S. can we come to the conclusion that we want Christianity to be in charge? There are plenty who think so.

If you live in Israel, do you want Judaism to be in charge?

I think that the revolutions that are happening around the world are resonating with many countries including the U.S. and the U.K.

LH has stated that these people want basic human rights and I agree.

They want their own version of democracy, not an imposed one.

There will always be those religious zealots who want to shove their religion down other people's throats.

Democracy is "messy" and doesn't allow for religious totalitarianism.