BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 02:14 PM

Penny -- Yes, actually, I plan on writing about Hephaestus, himself, for B.A.D.D. (mentioned in the first post to this thread), and I've read that same suggestion about the side effects of being a smith in the olden days -- most notably, using mercury as a substitute in making bronze when copper wasn't available.

However, one of the Homeric poets (I think of "Homer" as a collective noun) actually gave Heph. the line of dialog: "I was born lame in both legs."

It's my own private notion (not evolved enough to be a theory) that living with a physical disability actually leads you into thinking up new technology, to help you get around your physical limitations. And so the gods of clever technology tend to reflect that reality.

Jim --

Re: reshaping stories. What you say is true. However, the Grimm brothers did collect "their" tales, and continually refined and edited their collection (between 1812 and 1858) in order to advance the political cause they believed in. They were not the nineteenth century German version of Alan Lomax and they didn't pretend to be. It's our own romantic revisionism that sticks them in the role of "authentic folklorists."

When I retell a story, I do my best to: a) note my source, and b) point out what changes I have made, and why (usually, it's because my experience causes me to notice details that the author/translator skims over, or seems to miss entirely -- the: "hm. If I were this character, here, I would've felt X instead of Y" reaction. Because, frankly, I believe my lived experience today is just as "valid" as that of a ploughman who lived 200 years ago.

Re: the "experts" missing the point entirely. Psychological interpreters are the worst of the bunch. Just last night, a friend of mine send me a link to this essay about women's heroic journeys: The Armless Maiden and the Hero's Journey. It's all very pretty and intellectual, but, as my friend pointed out, the author assumes that living without hands can only be a metaphor -- there's no way it could ever have been a lived experience of actual people.

*sigh*
*grumble*

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 01:08 PM

Vulcan/Hephaestos/Wayland, th divine but lame smiths, may reflect reality. Wayland was supposed to have been deliberately lamed to keep him serving the king, but I have seen a suggestion that it was a side effect of the work.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 01:03 PM

"a man from my own quater"
That should read "quarter"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 12:14 PM

"However, if the Brothers Grimm could fine-tune the stories to inspire political and social change in their own society...."
We do have to be careful of distinguishing between the 'folktales' that have passed through the hands of collectors and anthologists and those that have come untouched straight from the communities that fostered them - while we have a large collection of the former, our experience over the last thirty years has been with live stortellers from rural area.
Details that appear insignificant have quite often been passed over and even omitted from published collections, while the tellers have often held these details as crucial to the plots - references to the weather or the terrain are an example of this.
I'm pretty certain the in communities that rely on people's abilities to move freely, with a full use of their faculties, disabilities would not just be a plot incidental, but a life-and-death issue to a narrator.
One teller gave us a whole load of tales which began "a man from my own quater (a specific measure of land) and then told us a traditional tale which had become totally localised to his area.
These tales, as fantastical as they are, were direct reflections of the lives of the people who used them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:05 PM

Another major cause of hunch back not seen so often these days is Potts' disease. Do a Google Images search and one of the pictures you get is an ancient Egyptian tomb drawing.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:03 PM

Thanks, Terry!

(you know, I'd be just as tickled if you simply read along).

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 07:45 PM

Good Luck with all of that Anne - Dont think I can add to your blog though !

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:53 PM

And now, my second entry is up: Monsters: a key motif, and a symbol of disability. I was originally planning on discussing The Romance of Aesop, but then I realized I needed to lay the foundation for why his monstrous looks (famous in legend) is significant.

So monsters came first.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:35 PM

Jim C -- Yes indeed. I was just thinking, last night, about how thick on the ground hunchbacks are in folktales, and how rarely they're encountered today. So I looked up the term on Wikipedia (a flimsy source on its own, but it's good for learning basic terminology, and potential search terms for later reference). Apparently, malnution during pregnancy and early childhood is one of the main causes. So it's easy to see how this would be a more common affliction in the Days of Yore, before refrigeration.

It is a fascinating subject. Though, if you are disabled, it is rarely encouraging, since the stories often go right to the root of all the bigotry and exclusion we face every day.

However, if the Brothers Grimm could fine-tune the stories to inspire political and social change in their own society, I have equal right to do so in my own time and place. And closely examining the knot may make it possible for me to undo it, without destroying it completely.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:18 PM

Mysha --

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "our current version." Do you mean the version as retold by Walt Disney in 1937? The story I'm referring to appeared in the first edition of the Grimms' Kinder- und Hausmärchen, and had several small changes to the story between that edition, and the final one in 1857.

I do know that dwarves, in general, are classified as type of elf of the Earthen element, protecting mountains and the treasures within (the folk tradition has many stories of human miners' encounters with them, and of the rituals and taboos involved in avoiding their wrath), and in the Grimms's version of the story, the dwarves are portrayed as guardians of their own particular mountain, which is why I interpreted them as primarily supernatural beings.

However, I am always eager to learn of historical links to fantastical tales, so if you could point me to a source about Margarete von Waldeck, I'd love to follow up.

Lacking proof of a connection between a handicap and intelligence, what would one expect about the intelligence of the handicapped?

Again, I'm not sure what it is you're asking. I do know that people tend to live up (or down) to expectations, and if someone has a physical difficulty in speaking, I have witnessed others assume that this someone has a mental difficulty in understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 03:24 PM

Blindness and hunchchbacked are probably the two most common forms of disability in formal folktales.
Scots travellers had 'The King's Scabby Heid (head)' where the palace offered a pot of gold to find a cure, which finally entailed cutting the head off, dipping it first in hot water, then in cold and finally scrubbing it with a scrubbing brush and lye soap.
Irish tale of the tailor with no legs taking a bet that he could sit all night on top of a tomb in a reputedly haunted graveyard. Is scared by two orchard robbers stealing and sharing apples ("One for you, one for me") which he believes to be two devils dividing out souls. He somehow makes it back home in record time, overtaking a hare on the way.
Probably most unusual (not really disability); Scots fisherman falls asleep in his boat and wakes up to find he has drifted to a remote island and has turned into a woman. Stays on island, marries a local man and raises a family.
Years later, is walking on the beach and finds his/her old boat; climbs in and falls asleep.
Is washed out to sea by the tide and wakes up to find the boat has drifted back to his original home and he has turned back into the original man.
One used by Chaucer but now solidly in tradition - blind man is told by unfaithful wife that he will find a cure for blindness by climbing to top of a tree and waiting until a cure comes along. Does so and hears wife and lover making love under the tree. Climbs down and is hit in face by branch, regaining his sight. Catching lovers at it he is told that what they are doing is a ritual to restore his sight.
Mermaid deliberately disabled by removal of tail which turns her into ordinary woman. Marries fisherman who caught her and raises family.
Cleaning the attic room one day she finds her tail, puts it back on and returns to sea, cursing the fisherman and everybody bearing his name.
Where do you stop.... hundreds of tales like this; three blind giant brothers sharing one eye; five adventurers each missing the use of one of his senses, so join forces to make up for the missing sense.
My own personal favourite.
Man is punished for having impure thoughts by waking up one morning to find his penis miraculously missing.
Goes to clergyman for help, but is told he deserves his punishment and is driven away by stick weilding minister.
Goes to local wise-woman for advice and is instructed to meet her under an oak tree on Midsummer's eve.
Is instructed by her to climb tree where he will find a rooks nest containng the missing artical. Finds a nest full of penises, so takes the largest and climbs down tree, only to be told to put it back where he found it as "That one belongs to the minister".
And there's more when they came from..... fascinating subject!
im C

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Mysha
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:48 PM

Hi,

Well, Snow White, or at least the current version, is suspected to be the life of Margarete von Waldeck, who could well have encountered miners of small stature as children were employed in the town's mines. Not to say you're wrong regarding the fact, but maybe about being so certain about it.

Before you start with the gods, remember that the gods do not only have a mythical history, but also a human one. Their characteristics may be part of how they came to their status.

If the human mind is capable of overcoming problems, and overcoming problems does indeed train it: Lacking proof of a connection between a handicap and intelligence, what would one expect about the intelligence of the handicapped?

Bye,
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:21 PM

Suibhne --

But did she cry "Aha!" as she waved her leg aloft?

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:15 PM

Jack -- Yes, I know, and that's why I've given the 35-50% statistic the benefit of the doubt for most of my life, and it certainly remains a significant statisitic filter for those people I've met in social and accademic settings.

But then I think about all those with cerebral palsy who shared space with me on children's hospitals wards (where we were grouped together according to which orthopedic surgery we needed, which was totally independent of mental capability), or at the summer camp I went to, which served both severely mentally and physically disabled people. And then, there are other clients of my aide who happen to have cerebral palsy, and with whom I have no other social interaction in common, and some of whom have been homeschooled because their level of physical disability is too severe for the public school to handle.

And then, there are news stories I come across that happen to feature someone with cerebral palsy -- stories of the sort where, if the person being written about were intellectually impaired, that would certainly be mentioned to heighten the "specialness" factor of the story.

And in all my 40 years of having a social life independent of my nuclear family, I have only heard of one person with CP who was, in fact, mentally handicapped.

And while I grant that there is a higher risk of cognitive impairment in all children born premature, or with other neonatal risk factors, and that includes people with CP, I do know that I've seen more people labeled as mentally retarded than actually are so I am skeptical that the corelation is as high as sites like the WebMD claim.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM

After a memorable Storytelling gig at a venue that will remain nameless, I was accosted by the gig organiser as to why so many of my stories involved disabled characters. Did I do The Leeching of Kayn's Leg on that occasion? Maybe not but the intro as given by Jacob's is a classic in this respect! Anyway, as I was muttering on about my ideas as to why this should be (which I won't bore you with here) this very lovely lady proceeded to remove her lower leg and hand it to me, much to the general befuddlement of ther hapless storyteller and hilarity of the amputee.
'I don't give my leg to just anyone,' she said, as a mark of approval.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:17 PM

Like this.


More hidden...perhaps it should stay so

Because sometimes a cigar is only a cigar. Play with the ideas here a bit...


See how they did it

And here it is in clear


I really must be more sceptical.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:17 PM

I've no idea what the actual figure is, but that argument doesn't work.

The people you've met are those who can manage some sort of social life. The very severely retarded can't, so you won't have met them.

I am an opportunity for bad statistics myself. I have a cleft palate. That is strongly correlated with a whole lot of genetic disasters including mental retardation. BUT I have a cleft lip along with it. That combination is a distinct syndrome, a developmental error in the embryo, which has no links to anything much else at all. It's only cleft palate WITHOUT cleft lip that significantly increases your chance of being more generally physically and mentally fucked up.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:07 PM

I wasn't thinking about "retardation" but moral disability, which is pretty appalling. Have you seen the autism thread on changelings?

As for Rumpelstiltskin, I find I was wrong. And Eliza was right.


The hidden name

I was given duff information from a Freudian source.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 12:51 PM

Penny S. -- And in real life, too. Here's what it says on WebMd.com (a major site for medical information in the States) about Cerebral Palsy (just grabbed this today, so it's "up to date" information, according to the experts):

(begin quote) Between 35% and 50% of all children with CP will have an accompanying seizure disorder and some level of mental retardation. (end quote)

And I'm coming to the conclusion that this within a hair's breadth of an outright lie. Having CP myself, I've gotten a chance to get to know, through my life, many other folks with CP, since we often need the same sorts of treatments, and therapies. I was trying to work out how many, just this morning. And it's got to be somewhere around several dozen.

You'd think, if up to half of them are mentally retarded, at least one of those people I've met would be.

Nope. Not one. In fact, every single person with CP I've met has been exceptionally bright (not to boast about my own accutity). What I have seen, though, is: therapists, psychologists, teachers, (and the parents who accept their authority) treat folks with CP as if they're retarded, and not bother to educate, or even talk with, them to the full level of their ability. If my own mother had accepted the diagnosis of the doctor who did my first psychological evaluation, when I was two, I would have been labeled "Severely Mentally Retarded." Instead, that was crossed out, and my mother was put down as "Hostile and manipulative"

(wide, evil, grin).

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 12:46 PM

Gnu -- I stuck it in this section to be on the safe side; I imagine I'll be writing more about the political and social prejudices the stories reveal about their cultures of origin, and the continuing impact they have today than actually tracing motifs or themes the way a folklorist or ethnologist would.

Jack Campin -- Yes, indeed, shamans (and their counterparts in other cultures) are often disabled. There's also blind Homer,* and one of the women put forth as "The Real Mother Goose" is said, according to legend, to have gotten the nickname because of a deformed foot that looked like a goose's foot.

Maeve -- Thank you! I look forward to writing more. Right now, I'm trying to decide which of several ideas should I have for my second entry.

Eliza -- maybe in the future. I'm going to start out with folktales, the first ones that came to mind are:

(start list)

• Hans my Hedgehog (parental response to a deformed baby)
  
• Bearskin (allegory for PTSD)
  
• The boy who left home to get the shivers (Asperger's)
  
• One Eye, Two Eyes, Three Eyes
  
• The Goose Girl at the Spring (for the elderly witch who looks after her)
  
• Rapunsel (the long version of the story has the prince blinded)
  
• The Girl without Hands
  
• Tom Thumb (when you're an adult who's two inches tall, there's going to be accessibility issues)
  
• The Two Travelers (blindness)
  
• The Hunchback and the Fairies
  
• Seven who Made their Way in the World (Seven traveling companions, each of whom is a physical "freak" in some way)

(end list)

The Dwarves in Snow White (In the original stories, their number varies) are actually supernatural beings -- Earth spirits, after which the human condition of dwarfism is named. But I will probably retell the Romance of Aesop who was said to be dwarfish. And I may write a bit about vampire legends from certain parts of Eastern Europe, that describe what a child born from a human/vampire union is like.

And then, there are the gods of mythology -- Hephaestos, the lame, Odin, with one eye, Tyr with one hand, et alia.
*(I thought about naming my blog "Plato's Nightmare / Homer's Dream," But Aesop is more associated with folktales, and is more likely to let folks interested in folklore find this blog than, say, high school student doing research for their Odessey report...

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:15 AM

Okay, how about Seven Dwarfs?

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:12 AM

It did say 'and classics of literature', but Penny, do do tell!! WHAT does Rumpelstiltskin's name mean??

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:09 AM

Interesting idea. And how often disability of the body is linked with a supposed disability of the mind in fiction - Eliza's ideas are mostly not folk. I wouldn't have thought of Rumpelstiltskin as disabled, but as a different sort of being, and, having found out that the name has a meaning, and what that meaning is, I wouldn't really want to enquire more about him.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:05 AM

Daniel Quelp and Rumpelstiltskin. Also blind Bertha in The Cricket on the Hearth. What about Quasimodo? Captain Hook and Long John Silver? Are these the sort of things you mean CapriUni?

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: maeve
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:18 AM

That's a promising first entry, CapriUni! I'll look forward to reading your future entries.

Maeve

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 06:23 AM

It's common for shamans and other people acting as intermediaries to the spirit world to be disabled. Carlo Ginzburg's "Ecstasies" has something on this.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: gnu
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 05:38 AM

Interesting. I don't know why this is in the BS section though.

Subject: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 06:58 PM

I've been lurking and/or "away" for a while now, I know. But I thought some folks here might be interested in a new blog I've started at blogspot.com: Plato's Nightmare / Aesop's Dream (Discovering images of disability in folklore and classics of literature)

There's just one entry up, so far, but I've got a few more in the brain attic, and will definitely be posting something for Blogging Against Disablism Day on May 1 (this is a link to last year's announcement).

Here's the first post of mine: Wherein I introduce myself and this blog