BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 02:26 PM

These two men are now adults and should have their identity revealed.

The bottom line is that there are so many things wrong with the way two murderers have been treated in comparison to the way a victims family was treated.


Just for a moment think about, they murdered a two year old child. Remember that they poured Humbrol modelling paint into his left eye. The pathologist's report read out in court stated that Bulger's foreskin had been forcibly retracted and that batteries had been inserted into his anus while he was being tortured. The judge, Mr. Justice Morland, told Thompson and Venables that they had committed a crime of "unparalleled evil and barbarity... In my judgment, your conduct was both cunning and very wicked." A psychiatrist said unequivocally they knew the difference between right and wrong

So you want to know if the system cured these sick fucks ? Well on the 23rd of July 2010, Venables pleaded guilty to charges of downloading and distributing child pornography, and was given a sentence of two years' imprisonment. He had posed in online chat rooms as 35-year-old Dawn "Dawnie" Smith, a married woman from Liverpool who boasted about abusing her eight-year-old daughter, in the hope of obtaining further child pornography.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM

I think it was grossly irresponsible to let them out at all, although admittedly that is the only sure way to find out if such offenders have been 'rehabilitated'. In this case, the 'experts' (who will never be held accountable) were obviously wrong. They might as well draw names out of a hat - it would be cheaper and every bit as successful. My sympathies are entirely with the victim's family.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 03:14 PM

"before you ask, I AM serious"
Thank you for affixing this to your posting Silas; I do have a problem with the idea that any sane, humane adult can seriously suggest that the state could try and institutionally execute two ten-year-olds, no matter how heinous their crime - barbarity at its most barbarous, even worse than what they did - they at least had the excuse of being ten-year-old children.
The next timer you're in the company of a ten-year-old I suggest you take a look at him/her and repeat whet you have just written - if I belived in a god, I would ask him to forgive you!
As for the return to capital punishment; perhaps you'd like to write the letters of apology to the fmilies of the Brimingham Six, or the Guildford Four, or the Maguires, or all the others who served long stretches for capital crimes they did not commit - they'd all be dead as Norwegian Blues, left to you.
Sorry - all part of our barbaric past along with Drawing and quartering and bear-baiting.
"These 'evil' children will grow up to be 'evil' adults"
I suggest you look up the 10 year old murderess Mary Bell - Wiki does a pretty good job on her.
Richie - Little Richie;
My sincere thanks for brightening up what has been a rather uneventful day.
You have made a tired man very happy - or the other way round.
"He just breezes in Keith hoping to rub one member against another"
I will never again think of you without getting a warm glow in my... er, member - thank you from the bottom of my.... well... member.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 03:17 PM

PS Richie;
I'm very pleased for both you and Keith that you've managed to find a friend at last - I hope you'll be very happy - you seem very well-matched
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:11 PM

Thanks Jim, I would like to consider you as a friend, but you don't seem to agree with me.

Enjoy Domhnach Cásca there and don't be eating too many cúbóg

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:22 PM

Mary Bell, the Scandinavian case mentioned above, and all previous cases I have ever heard of pale into insignificance compared to the brutality and perversity shown by these two.
That is why I felt it important to fill in some of the details.
Ritchie has completed the picture.
I have no answers either, but false comparisons and other excuses to parade your ultra lib. prejudices are no help at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:14 PM

Suggest you might just have the wrong Mary Bell Keithie - look again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:20 PM

No, I was referring to her and the Scandinavian case.
Sorry it was not clear enough for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM

It is extraordinary Jim, that just days after withdrawing from another debate, you are involving yourself in this one.
Here you are defending the perpetrators and showing no compassion for the child victim and family.
Previously the victims were certainly hundreds and probably thousands of sexually exploited and gang raped children.
Not only did you show no compassion, but you ridiculed and mocked me for expressing mine.
Your only concern was to deny or conceal the common factor linking the perpetrators.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 11:38 PM

There was a guy named Calvert who some people ID'd as Venables even though he denied it. Yet he received death threats and there are still sluggards who think he is Venables. Since the press cannot reveal Venables' new ID, to connect him with Calvert would be a violation of that order ergo Calvert cannot be Venables.

They're ready to let an innocent man be killed than let Venables face his just punishment. His life is so much more important than Calvert's. They got off scot-free. After what they did, they walked away away laughing. I have no sympathy for then whatsoever. They should be killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 10:59 AM

"I think it was grossly irresponsible to let them out at all"
Nobody has yet had the courage to acknowledge the fact that these are two ten year old children we are talking about.
They were caught, sentenced and punished according to the law as it still stands at the present time.
The law says that children cannot be held fully responsible and punishable for their actions - that, to me is simple logic; whatever these children did, they did so as children and must be treated as such.
So far we have had execution, incarceration for life, lifelong persecution, burning in hell, genetically evil (straight out of gothic horror fiction)... 'any more for the Skylark?'
I'm assuming that those offering such 'humane' analyses believe that there should be no demarcation line and would be happy to see all ten-year-olds - including members of their own family, treated as adults in criminal cases?
The parallels between the Bulger and the Bell cases are remarkable.
At the age of 11 Mary Bell, along with a 13 year old girl companion, strangled two children and mutilated their bodies, sexually and physically.
It emerged during her trial that Bell had been repeatedly handed over to her prostitute mother's clients for sex from the age of four onwards, and on two occasions her mother had attempted to kill her; the court-appointed psychiatrist described her as a psychopath.
She was found guilty of manslaughter, sentenced and imprisoned for the full term of her sentence - in the same facility as Venables was later held - her companion was acquitted.
On release, Bell was hounded by the press, as was the daughter she was later to have.
She finally won the legal right to privacy, was given a new identity and, despite her childhood traumas, crimes, incarceration and later long-term treatment by the gutter press, went on to lead a normal life; three years ago she became a grandmother - she has been fully rehabilitated.
Would anybody else like to offer an alternative to rehabilitation other than the hanging, persecution and burning in hell we've had so far?

"……just days after withdrawing from another debate,"
Keith – it is none of your business what I do on this forum; do not distort my opinions and the outcome of other threads, they have nothing whatever to do with what is being discussed here.
May I remind you again that the last thread ended up with your being virtually isolated and unsupported and failing dismally to persuade anybody that all Pakistanis are cultural degenerates.
This is not our thread and I have no intention of making it so by dominating it with our vacuous arguments, as we have managed to do in the past.
In respect to the other contributors here, do not make this yet another long pointless dialogue between us as has happened in the past - state your case to everybody here and stop trying to pick a fight with me.
Any attempt on your part to make this a personal argument between us and nause it up for other contributors will be reported to a forum adjudicator – let's stop this now.
Over and out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 11:22 AM

"They were caught, sentenced and punished according to the law"

"the Brimingham Six, or the Guildford Four, or the Maguires, or all the others who served long stretches for capital crimes they did not commit"

So what exactly is your view of British law then Jim ?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 11:25 AM

You could at least quote the whole sentence, Jim. My point was that it is always a gamble to let out the perpetrators of such crimes, and it puts the public at potential risk. If it wasn't irresponsible to let him out, how come he's back inside again?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 11:28 AM

"and failing dismally to persuade anybody that all Pakistanis are cultural degenerates."

Not surprising, as I never suggested such a ludicrous thing!

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 12:46 PM

"You could at least quote the whole sentence,"
Wasn't referring to you specifically Smokey - it seems a widespread opinion that they should never have been let out, nor Mary Bell for that matter.
Releasing a criminal who has been sentenced for a violent crime is always a risk, whether they had served their sentence in full or been released on appeal.
In this case they were released on licence on reaching 18, as the law demands.
Incarcerating them indefinitely is not only contrary to British law, but also would leave any government open to charges of contravening the statute of human rights.
As they were 10 year old children at the time of the crime it would also be inhuman in my opinion.
Still no reference to them being children I see.
I wonder if Silas could explain how an execution of a child should take place - would he be preaperd to carry it out himself or would he expect somebody else to do it on his behalf?
As a child of that age would be unlikely to break its neck when reaching the end of a drop, should it be left to strangle to death or would somebody have to pull the legs until it died.
Or maybe a weight could be added to its feet, with the risk of tearing the child's head off!!
Something to think about, doncha think??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 01:39 PM

There are more ways of execution than hanging. There are humane ways of 'putting down' or 'destroying' dogs which attack children ~~ you read of such every day in the News In Brief columns.

These are merely general observations not directly related to this thread, but suggested by Jim's last post. As I have remarked on various threads many times before, I am profoundly ambivalent on the subject of capital punishment; can see, and appreciate, the arguments on both sides; believe that there should be more to the concept of punishment in general than mere deterrence, though that is clearly an important factor; and should certainly be opposed to its use in the case of any child... But in the present instance...

...as to what should have been done to Thompson & Venables: search me ~~ except they should never have been released when they were, and if we are involved in treaty obligations with the EU or whoever which necessitated such a procedure in our laws, then such treaties should be withdrawn from forthwith. The skies wouldn't fall.

~Michael~

Howdy McCormick, you silly little specimen: having a good throw-up, are we?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 01:43 PM

Jim, this thread is getting horrible. Please, can we refrain from the kind of thoughts at the end of your post. Isn't it enough that Denise Bulger has to live with horrific thoughts each and every single day of her life??????????


To be honest, I'm sick of hearing about these two men, as they now are.
Jon Venables is serving 2 years for downloading and distributing child pornography. The court was not allowed to take in his previous crimes when sentencing him for that...which, quite honestly, is absolute shite.

If I'd have been either of these boys, or Mary Bell, and had been allowed to grow up, then realise the enormity of the atrocious act I'd committed, regardless of what had happened to me, I'd have probably killed myself, drunk myself to death or taken an overdose...leaving a letter of the utmost sincere apology for the parents of the children I'd tortured, mutilated and then murdered.

In Mary Bell's case, I'd have asked for an abortion, because I'd have felt it not my right to have a child at all, let alone go on to live a happy family life, whilst the parents of those I'd killed lived each and every day of their lives in the utmost agony imaginable.

As far as Jon Venables goes, NO WAY would I have ever looked at, touched, viewed, or even listened to stories, of child pornography. His contempt for his crime, for children in particular, is pretty clear for all to see.

Responsibility is a strange word these days.

Whilst I can understand how damaged a child can become, and I know there are thousands of damaged kids out there, kicking up a stink, raising merry hell, very few of them would go on to do what these two did.

Personally, I think they should have stayed in jail for at least 20 years, then lived a very monitored life-style for many years after that.

I understand the Law is an Ass, so that ain't going to happen. And for his previous heinous crime not to have been taken into account beggars belief, but again, that is the madness of the legal system.

Our thoughts, our feelings of sympathy, should lie with Denise Bulger, her husband, and the parents of the children Mary Bell murdered too. They will have no grandchildren from those little souls. Their murders deprived them of more than their children, but of a future line of children going down through possibly, centuries.

Whilst those parents suffer each and every day in atrocious agony, and will do so for the rest of their days, the perpertrators of these horrific crimes have had a fortune spent on them, receive constant protection/anonymity and quite frankly, as in the case of Jon Venables, stick two fingers up to society.   He's promised to turn his life around when he gets out..yeah right...

Sadly...Denise Bulger will NEVER be able to turn her life around, no matter what happens to her, for their will always be a gaping hole inside her, always her arms will long to hold her Jamie, to see his smile again, to see him grown up with his own children on his knee...

I have great sympathy for damaged children, but I have no sympathy if there is no sense of sincere apology or heart-felt regrets of the deepest kind imaginable....and as far as I can see, there has been none from any of these now adult people.

I agree that Mary Bell's child and grandchild should be allowed to remain anonymous, because none of her life is their fault, but as to the rest of these folks, no..my sympathy is with the mothers and fathers, the families involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 01:50 PM

BTW, Jim ~~ you do realise that "would you do it yourself?", while emotionally satisfying, has no real argumentative merit? I bet I could think of a whole lot of procedures necessary for the maintenance of society which you would be reluctant to carry out yourself and can only be grateful that some people will.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 02:35 PM

Lizzie, you are correct in pulling the focus of this case towards this lady Denise Bulger. My heart goes out to her. I doubt any of the smiling "thug hugger" nutjobs knocked her door to convert her to the liberal forgiveness of cloud cuckoo land. I make no excuses for my desire to see these two bastards roasted in hell. I hate the law allowing them freedom, freedom that cost close to £3 million.

I'm the last person on the planet Michael would want hear a comment from, but that attack by "Citizen" McCormack was uncalled for and frankly reeked of jealously and class hatred. His background has nothing to do with his freedom to express an opinion.

Your flat cap and sandwiches are on the hall table Fred, close the door on your way out.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 03:27 PM

"There are more ways of execution than hanging."
There are indeed Mike - but thankfully not in the UK or Ireland any more (except if you happen to set fire to a naval dockyard - or has that gone too??)
The barbarism that was capital punishment is now only a fond memory of the would-be Madame LeFarges (like yourself, I take it) who yearn for the days..... ah well!!
I take it you have no great objection to killing children - along with our two 'abrading members'?
"Please, can we refrain from the kind of thoughts at the end of your post."
OK to see them off if you don't mention it in polite company in order not to scare the horses or upset the staff, eh Lizzie?
Did you know that when Ruth Ellis was hanged she had to wear canvas drawers because the insides of the woman who was hanged before her fell out when she was dropped - the realities of the 'good old days'!
"Sadly...Denise Bulger will NEVER be able to turn her life around,"
I doubt if any of the families involved will ever be able to turn their lives around - maybe we should see off the Taylor and Venables families while we're at it - wouldn't have to think about them then?
"I'm the last person on the planet Michael would want hear a comment from".
Apparently not the case Rich.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 03:35 PM

>>>>>>"Sadly...Denise Bulger will NEVER be able to turn her life around,"
I doubt if any of the families involved will ever be able to turn their lives around - maybe we should see off the Taylor and Venables families while we're at it - wouldn't have to think about them then?..."<<<<


They at least still have their sons. And of course, perhaps, had they loved them as Denise loved Jamie, ALL would still have their sons.

Again, my sympathy is with Denise, she is the mother without her son. Nothing will bring him back, nothing will take away the horror.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 03:46 PM

As capital punishment has been mooted a few times in this thread, I would like to say that I believe it to be barbaric, and I'm very glad it's no longer a punishment here in UK. I've just finished reading an extremely interesting biography of James Berry, Executioner in UK during the latter part of the 19th Century. He noted and described many hangings he performed, (and they were not all the quick, painless affairs one might imagine.) How any human being could snuff out the life of another in cold blood, as he did, is beyond my comprehension, no matter what their crime. Even if a method could be devised which was entirely painless, it's sinister and wrong IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 04:03 PM

Jim ~~ Please read my post 01.39PM in response to yours more carefully, & you will see I am no Defarges, but, I repeat, profoundly ambivalent on the matter of capital punishment: &, tho I would most certainly never wish to see a child punished in such a fashion, am much at a loss as to what would have been the right response in this most distressing instance.

Richie ~ I know we started off on wrong foot: but, bygones? & many thanks for your support in re the foolish & doctrinaire (& smartarse) McCormick.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 04:14 PM

On the previous thread it was I who had to keep reminding Jim that we were discussing children.
At least 3 died, and all were damaged.
It seems he only cares if they are offenders, not innocent victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 06:05 PM

I think that whoever is responsible for deciding whether, or when, such offenders are let back into society should somehow bear some responsibility for whatever happens as a consequence of their decision. They might be more careful about it then.

I believe Thompson and Venables should have been kept in secure care until they were 18 then sentenced as adults with a complete understanding of what they had done and the full consequences of their actions.

Mary Bell might well be a rehabilitated balanced human being for all I know, but no-one actually knows that for certain. I doubt if anyone here would be comfortable about employing her as a child minder.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM

Incarcerating them indefinitely is not only contrary to British law, but also would leave any government open to charges of contravening the statute of human rights.

They never let Brady and Hindley out. Should they have done?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 03:20 AM

"Jim ~~ Please read my post 01.39PM in response to yours more carefully, & you will see I am no Defarges, but, I repeat, profoundly ambivalent"
I'm aware of that Mike - I feel exactly the same way myself and I am as much at a loss as you, the deciding factor being that these were 10 year old children when this horrific act was committed. Perhaps I over-reacted in my response, but I find this hypocritical heart-on-sleeve handwringing by people whose primary interest or knowledge of these subjects doesn't extend beyond what they can scoop up from the net and put their name to.
We are talking about childrens' lives - three of them, not one, and the sheer horror of even considering taking two 10-year-old children and stringing them up - or even lethally injecting them, is probably as low as any 'civilised' society can sink.
"until they were 18 then sentenced as adults with a complete understanding of what they had done"
Can I get this straight Smokey - they should be punished as adults for what they did as children - should all juvenile crime be treated in this way - if not, why not?
Why differentiate at all between juvenile and adult crimes if they are going to be punished as adults anyway - let's cut to the chase.
Brady and Hindley were adults; whether they were fully responsible for their actions is, thankfully, not my business to decide. As here, I am happy to leave to those whose job it is. I am not prepared to see our justice system placed in the hands of the tabloid press, or with those who throw themselves at prison vans - or with ghouls who scream for blood on threads like this - are you?
"I would like to say that I believe it to be barbaric"
With you there Eliza; you should try to get hold of John Deane Potter's 'Fatal Gallows Tree - "an account of the British habit of hanging"' (if it is still in print). It has a wonderful description of The House of Lords' successful attempt to retain capital punishment in Britain in 1956 - they managed to delay it for a further eight years.
"From the hills of darkest Britain they came; the halt, the lame, the deaf, the obscure, the senile and the forgotten - the hereditary peers of England united in their detrmination to use their medieval powers to retain a medieval institution".
It seems their counterparts have bought themselves computers and joined chat forums.
Jim Carroll
PS Mike - thank you for not pointing out that I should have written DeFarge and not LaFarge.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 03:39 AM

Jim. The fact that they were 10 years old does not in any way diminish the crime. It was not a game that got out of hand, it was a premeditated abduction, torture and murder.

10 yeas old or 20 years old, its still the same crime and its still the same victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 03:43 AM

"The fact that they were 10 years old does not in any way diminish the crime."

Jim posits a very good point, one that no-one has yet answered.
Should all Juvenile crime be treated in the same way as Adult crime, and the juvenile perpetrators treated the same as adults.
If not why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 04:08 AM

Jim, I don't know if you have children or not. Tell me this though, if your child had been Jamie, what would have been your reaction?

Would you have wanted nothing but kindness for these children?

Would you have felt 'a little bit cross' with them?

Or would you have keeled over in absolute grief that your child had been put through such absolute hell, prior to his horrific death and wanted those who had done it locked away for life?

I don't believe that minds which are not only capable of thinking such thoughts, but actually carrying them out, planning them beforehand, can ever be fully healed.

There are many disturbed children out there now, as I said earlier, because society has remained silent about the violence that is all around.

You talk of the disbelief of how society can want a Hangman, or how that person can carry out such a barbaric act....well, what is going on in society nowadays is also barbaric...because if you truly think that little children being fed a diet of unbelievable violence, of excrutiating vile images, in films, in computer 'games', let alone real life violence they are surrounded with, then you aren't even starting to raise your head above the parapet.

Children are FILMING other children being beaten up, by their mates. I mean WTF is that all about?????? Children now ENJOY violence! Their heads are filled with horrific images and thoughts...

My head was filled with Doris Day, Rock Hudson, Howard Keel, Gene Kelly, Deborah Kerr, Yul Bryner, the Carry On films...I wasn't raised on people being hacked to death, blood spurting out of every orifice, people being raped, murdered, cut into bits...!

There are some very, VERY sick people out there creating films, making 'games'...and children now sit for hours killing and killing and killing, often in the most terrible ways...

We have not progressed from the Horror of the Hangman, merely passed that outlook onto our children, as a species, for the Hangman felt that killing was right, he was unaffected by it, for the most part...that part of his soul cut off, desensitised, perhaps never having been there in the first place...so he was able to carry out his task then go home to bed and sleep. Same with those who torture...

And now, we bring our children up on all of this outlook...all of this killing, all of this hatred..and we wonder why we have the society we do.


I do not hear sympathy for you for Jamie's Mum and I find that deeply disturbing, to be honest.

If Venables or Thompson lived next door to me, I would be panic stricken to be honest, out of my mind, if I had little children.

I think that some crimes are so far removed from all that life is about that the only sentence is natural life, no matter what age the perpertrators are. Some minds are SO damaged they cannot be put back together again, and thus innocent members of society MUST be protected from them, at all costs.

I do not want to see children being hanged, but I really do feel that sometimes, life imprisonment should mean exactly that. I don't think Venables will ever 'turn his life around'...and I don't think he'll stop looking at child pornography either. I shudder at the thought of him being free again in a very short space of time, because I think his mind is severely broken..and whilst I feel sorry for that part of it all, my sympathy can only lie with the mother of little Jamie Bulger.

If these men were truly repentant for what they had done as children, truly understood what they had done, then I think they would have behaved very differently. Most certainly, one would NOT be behind bars, yet again.

And, I think that life inside prison, for Venables at least, would actually be far kinder, if kindess is what you want, Jim. There he is protected, he has a pattern, a routine to his days, to his life. He is surrounded by people who want to help him, who do not judge him and he would know, as society would also, that never again would he have the opportunity to commit another crime, ever again in his natural life. I think it would actually give him the security he may always have longed for, strange as that may appear to some.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 04:54 AM

"I wonder if Silas could explain how an execution of a child should take place - would he be preaperd to carry it out himself or would he expect somebody else to do it on his behalf?
As a child of that age would be unlikely to break its neck when reaching the end of a drop, should it be left to strangle to death or would somebody have to pull the legs until it died.
Or maybe a weight could be added to its feet, with the risk of tearing the child's head off!!
Something to think about, doncha think??
Jim Carroll"

I've just seen this post from Jim. There are no easy answers, but as far as 'doing it myself', well, probably not, we should employ specialists for this sort of work, no good having amatures bungling the job. It may seem a bit distasteful executing children even if they are evil murderers. The alternative is to lock them up forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 05:28 AM

Lizzie - are you for real or did Dame Barbara Cartland invent you?
"society has remained silent about the violence that is all around."
Society has also managed to remain silent about a great number of things not unconnected with these events.
I grew up on the Kirkby estate where the Bulgers live - I'll be there tomorrow afternoon visiting relatives.
I know what shit-holes they are, or certainly where when I was growing up, and I've seen what they can do to people - we have our own versions here in Ireland around Limerick City - or 'Stab City' as it's affectionately known.
You want to shriek "vengence" from two ten year olds - feel free to do so, but you have to ask yourself seriously - would your obvious mentor Mary Poppins approve?
"....what would have been your reaction"
Hardly a hypothesis to produce a rational reaction on my part, don't you think?
"The alternative is to lock them up forever."
And that's the only alternative we have as far as you're concerned Silas ?
"The fact that they were 10 years old does not in any way diminish the crime."
I think that you might find the law of the land might just disagree with you on that point - it may not diminish the effects of the crime but..... look it up..
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 05:38 AM

I knew right from wrong at 10 years old, Jim. So did you. So do most 10 years olds, regardless of where they come from.


"Lizzie - are you for real or did Dame Barbara Cartland invent you?"


I am for real. I know the agonising pain of someone saying to me 'You're baby is dead', so I know, just a fraction, how Denis Bulger must have felt, must feel every day of her life...

As I said, it worries me greatly that I have seen barely any sympathy for this poor woman, or her son, coming from you.

You have NO understanding, no real understanding of the shock, the grief, the trauma that she lives with each and every day.

Be thankful.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 05:40 AM

And...if MORE children were brought up on 'Mary Poppins' and not 'Chainsaw 2' or 'Halloween 4' or whatever, then this world just might, just might be a far, far better place.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: banjoman
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 05:43 AM

As a former resident of Norris Green Liverpool, I can vouch for the violence and total disregard for human life that is rife there. My mother , aged 75, was mugged by a gang of youths for the 50p she had in her purse. The only solution, in my view, is to ensure that life imprisonment for the perpertrators of such horrific crimes should mean exactly that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 05:46 AM

"And that's the only alternative we have as far as you're concerned Silas ?"

Yep.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 06:39 AM

Children aged ten and over can differentiate between bad behaviour and serious wrongdoing, that fact has been proven. They also know what pain feels like and Thompson and Venables knew just how much they were hurting poor little James.
The age of criminal responsibility in England is one the lowest in Europe.

There are millions of people that have been abused .mistreated molested etc etc that do not perpetrate the same on another human being. Sorry to rain on your parade of luvviedom but evil does not begat evil.


When Venables was 17, he has having full sex up to three times a week with a female guard whilst still in prison. The guard was never prosecuted. The government tried to cover up the innocent. So they even threw in a female guard prepared shag the little bastard for good measure. Again the government tried to cover up that the two bastards went on an unsupervised 'lads' trip' to Europe while on parole. Yes, let them check out the kids in Europe.


Currently law is no deterrent. Foe examplr, recently in West Croydon, a teenage girl who launched a racially motivated attack that saw a seven-month-old baby thrown into a bus lane avoid jail. The 15-year-old was instead sent on an anger management course. She was just convicted of causing actual bodily harm to the baby, not attempted murder. The baby's family have since returned home to Mauritius to escape the devastation the attack had caused on their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 10:01 AM

"I knew right from wrong at 10"
All this oozes a middle class smugness of people who have no idea of the conditions on these estates and the effects they have on the behaviour of those who live on them.
I'm sure Banjiman has, as his two neighbouring estates, Croxteth and Sparrow Hall both share Kirkby's problems, and have been prone to crimes of violence, some horrific, throughout my lifetime, though I totally reject his nonsensical non-solution of treating children as adults, fully recognised as nonsense by our law-makers in forming laws that clearly differentiate between the two.
I wonder how many here would be prepared to see their child banged up as an adult if he/she say, took a car without permission and ran somebody down in the process, without howling "but he/she is only a child" – yeah, right!!
These twwo were children when they committed their crimes, were recognised and punished as such – quite rightly; and demands that it should be otherwise, especially to the extent suggested, is every bit as inhuman as what they did – and as I said, none of you have the excuse of being 10-year-old children – at least, I don't think you have!!
I can assume that you all would be happy to see the reduction of any age differentiation in criminal cases – to what, I wonder – nine, eight, seven…. lower even???
"......and not 'Chainsaw 2' or 'Halloween 4"
So you do recognise that there might be reasons other than their being 'pure evil' to make them act the way they did - careful Lizzie, you might just end up a caring human being - if you're not careful!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 10:11 AM

Hmmm.
You may think they have been fairly, but I don't think the British Public have. They should be safley behind bars or quietly buried within the prison grounds. Life is hard enough as it is without having to pander to these evil bastards who will go on to commit further crimes and probably murder again. As a nation we are far too tolerant of this sort of thing - if we don't have the stomach for the death penalty, then life should mean life, and it should be a bloody hard life at that, solitary confinement and bloody hard labour till the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 11:16 AM

Why did the government attempt to cover up that a female guard was shagging one of the little bastards whilst he was serving his "so called" sentence, and why was no action taken against her ?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 11:43 AM

It strikess me that a good deal of information is being given in this thread that appears not to be officially supported, or at least no links are given. I don't read well between the lines.

My question is: If Venables's alias has not been made public, how is it that everyone knows the details of his arrest and the offense itself? For that matter, under what name has he been livng and how do the people who know him under that name feel about it?

And how has it been made public what occurred during his incarceration?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM

Ebbie, if you refer to anything I posted, please point it out to me and I will be glad to send you a link to the source.

Best wishes

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 12:56 PM

should all juvenile crime be treated in this way - if not, why not?

This case is hardly typical of juvenile crime, and I was discussing this case, not 'all juvenile crime'. They knew just what they were doing, and how wrong it was - that much is obvious. Their release and anonymity posed an undeniable danger to society, and was ill-advised. They are no longer ten year olds, they are adults who more or less got away with what they did without really answering for the consequences. It's not about vengeance, it's about protecting society from dangerous nutters.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 01:53 PM

"So you do recognise that there might be reasons other than their being 'pure evil' to make them act the way they did - careful Lizzie, you might just end up a caring human being - if you're not careful!"


Sorry??   I'm not with you at all, Jim. I've been banging on about this for many years. I *never* said anything about 'pure evil' either, by the way, just to set the record straight.

What I *did* say was way too many children are being fed a diet of extreme and graphic violence, in videos, computer games and even in music itself these days. Add to that the violence that carries on around them, all the put down TV programmes, the TV Soaps with their vile story lines, the wars around the globe, etc..and it's not a recipe for kind and caring children overall.

Once again, I see NO sympathy displayed by you to the victim of this terrible crime. The boys who carried it out had a CHOICE, you know, Jim....every killer does, every rapist does...They CHOSE to step across the boundaries of sanity and do what they did to a little toddler.

Jamie Bulger had NO choice whatsoever. None.

He did however, put his innocent trust in two boys who held out their hands to him, taking those hands, as most toddlers will do, probably encouraged by a smile...Those hands took Jamie's in the sure knowledge that they were going to do untold damage, unspeakable acts to that little boy.

There is ONE victim in this whole sordid affair. He is now dead and buried, his body in two separate parts.

He had NO choice, Jim.

Those boys planned what they did. They.....planned....it.


>>>>"I knew right from wrong at 10"
All this oozes a middle class smugness of people who have no idea of the conditions on these estates and the effects they have on the behaviour of those who live on them.<<<<<

That is such inverted snobbery that it beggars belief. How class-ridden to say that only middle-class families know right from wrong. What patronizing and insulting rubbish that is to every person on a council estate who has a bloody decent family!   So many families who have nothing still manage to raise their children to be decent human beings.

It's love that matters...and if you don't get that when you are little, then it matters not if your father is a King or a Dustman. Many Royal children had atrocious childhoods, despite living in castles and wearing jewels..A lack of love affects everyone, no matter who you are, or where you are from. However, most people, even those who lack love still know that what happened to Jamie Bulger was appallingly WRONG.

The only smugness I see on this thread is from someone who cares far more for those who did this to a little boy, rather than that little boy himself.

Jamie didn't know not to take the hands of strangers at that age. He didn't know that bad people exist out there. I'm sure that even those who saw those boys with Jamie would have ever dreamed what they were on their way to do.

As I said earlier, Jim...until you've heard the words 'I'm sorry, but your baby is dead', then you have no right to put seemingly all your sympathies with the perpertrators of this terrible and terrifying crime.   

They were FIVE times his age, Jim.

One of them has gone on to show the world that locking him up WAS the right thing to do and letting him out was so terribly wrong. Not much is known about Robert Thompson it would seem.

Perhaps you will only be silenced when Venables has possibly killed another child. He is still deeply interested in them, in a pornographic way, it would seem..so therefore, I would say that he is a HUGE risk to ANY child.

I'm sorry if he was born that way, or if he became that way, but his mind is now so sick and so sickening, that in my book he has lost the right to an ordinary life. He did that at the age of 10, when it became clear to most people with common sense, that his mind was already deeply disturbed. I feel some pity for him, and for the other boy, but they crossed that line of their own volition.

I feel the deepest compassion imaginable for Denise Bulger and her sweet, innocent son, Jamie.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 02:00 PM

Also, Venables, as with any other viewer of child pornography, is ensuring that even more children are being tortured, abused, raped, God alone knows what else, purely to feed a market of sick minded folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 02:04 PM

"You may think they have been fairly, but I don't think the British Public have"
Personally, as a (now ex) member ofthe British public, but still a citizen, I have never seen it in my interest to execute, or even incarcerate for a lifetime, children who have committed crimes in childhood.
The first is totally barbaric and places is no diffrent to their behaviour - they killed a toddler, so we'll kill two 10 year olds - is that right?.
"They knew just what they were doing, and how wrong it was"
That is an assumption nobody has the right to make unless they have access to informtion the rest of us don't.
"They are no longer ten year olds, they are adults who more or less got away with what they did.... "
I ask again - are you proposing that there is no bottom limit for the punishment of criminality?
You are now simply referring to simple revenge - we should be allowed our pound of flesh - no thanks; to primitive for me.
If they continue to commit crimes hopefullythey wil be punished, but one ting is certain, they will never again be out i=of sight of the authorities.
ANnd once again:
"I wonder how many here would be prepared to see their child banged up as an adult if he/she say, took a car without permission and ran somebody down in the process, without howling "but he/she is only a child""
"and why was no action taken against her ? "
Yeah - let's top her while we're at it.
"how is it that everyone knows the details of his arrest and the offense itsel"
Much of the information we have is based on speculation by the tabloid press -relaible or what??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 02:05 PM

Well said throughout, Lizzie. I can't imagine what purpose Jim thinks he is serving by being so uncomprehending of your entirely valid points, and so patronising about them towards you personally.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 02:08 PM

My last was cross-posted with Jim's last: but I can't see that what he said there invalidates one jot what I said there.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Some mothers do have em
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 02:11 PM

I had a miscarriage as well, how does that make me any better qualified to take part in this argument? What a stupid thing to say. No miscarriage is anything like the pain that Denise Bulger went through. Her son was brutally murdered. However The children who murdered him were also victims. They were so brutalised by the underclass they grew up in that they were able to do something terrible and unspeakable. Losing a baby does not qualify anyone any more than anyone else to judge them, but growing up in the kind of households that they did on the estates that they did and experiencing the brutality and the abuse that they experienced might.

If you want someone to blame, blame our society that has allowed these awful places to exist, full of feral children and adults like Dickens's London. If you want someone to blame, blame every person who is not campaigning on the streets for social reform that would CLOSE the gap between rich and poor in this country. Instead of sitting here on messageboards talking about capital punishment for 10 year olds. Who are the barbarians here eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 02:14 PM

I ask again - are you proposing that there is no bottom limit for the punishment of criminality?
You are now simply referring to simple revenge - we should be allowed our pound of flesh - no thanks; to primitive for me.

I repeat:

I was discussing this case, not 'all juvenile crime'. It's not about vengeance, it's about protecting society from dangerous nutters.