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BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
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Subject: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: Fred McCormick Date: 18 May 11 - 09:50 AM I've just heard, via AOL news, that a new trial is to be convened for the Stephen Lawrence murder. The full story is below. Let's hope that justice is properly served this time. Two men are to face trial for the racist murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence after new scientific evidence was uncovered, it can now be reported. Gary Dobson, 35, and David Norris, 34, are due to go before an Old Bailey jury in November accused of the "calamitous" crime. Senior judges ruled that the trial could go ahead even though Dobson had been acquitted following a 1996 private prosecution by the Lawrence family. Stephen's parents Neville and Doreen Lawrence were at the Court of Appeal to hear the decision. Mr Lawrence said he was "pleased". Mrs Lawrence said: "Perhaps somewhere down the line we will finally get justice for him." Mr Lawrence, an 18-year-old A-level student, was stabbed to death in Eltham, south east London in April 1993. "The murder of Stephen Lawrence, a young black man of great promise, targeted and killed by a group of white youths just because of the colour of his skin, was indeed a calamitous crime," said the Lord Chief Justice Lord Judge. The ruling was announced by Lord Judge sitting with Mrs Justice Rafferty and Mr Justice Holroyde. It followed a prosecution application to quash Dobson's earlier acquittal. He had been cleared of murder at the 1996 trial, along with Luke Knight and Neil Acourt, after purported identification evidence was ruled inadmissible. But Dobson was charged with the crime again, along with Norris, last September, although it could not be reported at the time for legal reasons. Lifting the blanket reporting restrictions on the case, Lord Judge said the prosecution application to quash Dobson's acquittal was based on new scientific evidence relating to a grey bomber jacket and a multi-coloured cardigan which it was said "closely links" Dobson to the attack. The Crown Prosecution Service and the Metropolitan Police welcomed the ruling, which followed an application by the Director of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer QC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: Leadfingers Date: 18 May 11 - 10:53 AM The endemic racialism of the Met was at least highlighted by the original enquiry ! Lets hope the 'New Evidence' gives a satisfatorary result |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 May 11 - 10:56 AM Here's something we are at one about, Fred. It would be an absolute disaster if they contrive to weasel out of responsibility for that atrocity yet again. Let's all just hope that won't happen. Thank goodness for modern evidence of the DNA sort; and for the sensible change in the law which came in its wake whereby a re-prosecution could be allowed, even after an acquittal, with great safeguards, if significant new evidence emerges. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: Fred McCormick Date: 18 May 11 - 11:23 AM M. Absolutely. I'll happily fall out with anyone about the monarchy or the economic system or the spending cuts. But if there's a more terrible crime than killing someone because you don't like the colour of their skin, I have yet to find out what it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 May 11 - 11:41 AM Couldn't agree more, Fred! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: Mrrzy Date: 18 May 11 - 12:00 PM Whoa - doesn't the UK have double-jeopardy? If one was already acquitted of the crime, how can he be re-tried, new evidence or no? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: Fred McCormick Date: 18 May 11 - 12:06 PM No. The law was changed some years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: Mrrzy Date: 18 May 11 - 02:31 PM Wow. That must make for some interesting legal wrangles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 May 11 - 02:35 PM Mrrzy ~~ see my post of 10.56 AM. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: Rumncoke Date: 18 May 11 - 06:57 PM To have a retrial after an acquital there has to be significant new evidence, and it is considered before a new trial can be started. I'm afraid I forget who considers it, but the system was put in place as advances in forensic techniques meant that old verdicts could be appealed and in some cases reversed by a simple DNA test on evidence kept in storage. It seemed only fair that the same techniques which proved someone innocent after being found guilty could also be used in a second accusation after a not guilty verdict. Anne Croucher |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: catspaw49 Date: 18 May 11 - 07:05 PM Yeah.....Happy to remain with Double Jeopardy. Much as I see the point, I also have no trust in human beings. One group of justices decide one thing, a different group another. By the end of the Johnson administration the Supreme Court had effectively ended the death penalty in the United States. Than along came Nixon at a time several Supremes left the court and Tricky Dicky got his guys in. Zoom....Death Penalty!!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: alanabit Date: 19 May 11 - 12:39 AM It is a difficult case. The police have long been sure that they have identified the thugs who murdered Stephen Lawrence, but have as yet been unable to obtain evidence convincing enough to get them banged up. I can well imagine that it was also difficult to get witnesses to testify against these violent young men for fear of reprisals. While I understand the concerns of our American friends, I hope that convictions are possible this time around. Our streets must be made safe for the likes of Stephen Lawrence, not the beasts who murdered him. That is our priority. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 May 11 - 04:38 AM When the previous attempts to convict failed, the much maligned Daily Mail named 5, including theses 2, as the murderers and challenged them to sue. They declined. I hope that does not jeopardize this trial. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: Fred McCormick Date: 24 May 11 - 10:05 AM it won't. Long technical reasons but I think it's basically to do with the fact that DM issued this challenge after they had been acquitted at the previous trial. My feeling is that this prosecution would not have been issued if the Crown didn't feel they had a very good chance of sustaining convictions. I just hope that enough evidence now comes to life to incarcerate the other three as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: Peter the Squeezer Date: 24 May 11 - 02:13 PM Anne Frank was a teenager who was killed by a state led by fascist thugs, because she was Jewish. Stephen Lawrence was a teenager who was killed by fascist thugs because he was black. What's the difference? I hope that they all, victims and criminals, get the justice they deserve, maybe without the interference of the gutter press this time. Maybe one of our legal Catters (Richard perhaps), might like to comment? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 May 11 - 04:49 PM I think if more up to date evidence or evidence that negates that previously given is used to acquit people previouly found guilty - as in the George Davis case - then by the same token it should also be possible to re-try someone previously found innocent. It has been accepted for many years that better forensics and better systems can cast doubt on any prior case. Whether the defendant was found guilty or innocent should be irrelevent and such newer evidence should be able to overturn any prior ruling. Just my 2 penn'urth. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: MGM·Lion Date: 25 May 11 - 04:56 PM ---Anne Frank was a teenager who was killed by a state led by fascist thugs, because she was Jewish. Stephen Lawrence was a teenager who was killed by fascist thugs because he was black. What's the difference?--- Well, the difference, Peter, is that poor Anne Frank was killed legally, according to the laws in force where she had the misfortune to be living at the time. This reply is no attempt to justify any thuggish killing of anyone, but simply as a factual answer to your question. I still hope that the disgusting creatures who killed poor Stephen will belatedly get their just deserts this time around. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 May 11 - 06:36 PM I'm sure I posted about the Contempt of Court Act and its relationship to common law contempt. I'm beginning to think the post eater is getting personal. |
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Subject: BS: Stephen Lawerance From: goatfell Date: 03 Jan 12 - 03:49 PM Stepen Lawrance mureders have found guilty now to get the other three, a good result |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: goatfell Date: 03 Jan 12 - 03:51 PM the two have been found guilty |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:00 PM Well, the difference, is that poor Anne Frank was killed legally, according to the laws in force where she had the misfortune to be living at the time. Anne Frank died of typhus while in Bergen Belsen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Lonesome EJ Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:33 PM It seems to me the principle of Res Judicata is a rather fundamental doctrine of most governments in the world where incarceration and punishment is not allowed to become a tool of repression by the government, and particularly bearing on the suppression of those in opposition to said government. The danger in weakening such a fundamental principle is the loss of protection for all of us, even when additional proof comes to light. In the same way Freedom of Speech allows a Ku Klux Klansman to rail against blacks, Jews and immigrants, it allows those in diametric philosophical opposition to the Klansman to question the unrestricted and illegal use of power by the government. We should never celebrate the fundamental erosion of an important right in the name of a short term and specific satisfactory result without considering the long term implications. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Sam Hudson Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:07 PM The outcome of this case was decided months ago, the judge was clearly directing the jury due to government pressure despite the fact that the evidence against the two chaps was contaminated and the case against them failed miserably several years ago. A bald female blasted the British police tonight saying they were incompetent and their ability to solve crime was anything but reassuring. I would fully understand if she decided to leave Britain now the case is over to live in some other jurisdiction in which she felt safe. A sad day for British justice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:12 PM Peter Laban ~ that is a quote from me, from some way back, which you appear to be replying to. To which I rejoin: yes, I know. So what is your point? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Stilly River Sage Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:59 PM I don't know this case in the UK, but perhaps some of you recall the mockery of a trail that happened around OJ Simpson. He also was acquitted in the criminal trial. I suspect the line "Senior judges ruled that the trial could go ahead even though Dobson had been acquitted following a 1996 private prosecution by the Lawrence family" offers a clue - this sounds to be the equivalent of a civil trial here in the U.S., when individuals or companies sue each other for various reasons. While the prosecution in the Simpson trial was evidently unable to prove the case, the civil case had a different set of standards to meet to find guilt and the Brown family won their suit and took Simpson to the financial cleaners. I'd be willing to get that the "private prosecution" is the same and wouldn't affect a criminal prosecution. Not a sad day at all for British Justice, if minority citizens finally begin see crimes against them prosecuted and generally treated as a serious matter. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Jan 12 - 04:35 AM Stephen's father Neville Lawrence, who said that along with the intervention of Nelson Mandela, who met the Lawrence family after the murder, this newspaper's (Daily Mail) campaign was the crucial turning point in the case: 'I was in Jamaica when you ran that headline but the people who were running the campaign at the time phoned immediately to tell me what you had done. 'I was very pleased, but I admit that at first I was frightened, too, because I realised the implications. If you name people as murderers you have to be pretty sure you have the proof or you'll be in trouble. 'But the fact that the Mail – which is a very influential newspaper – went out on a limb for us showed how committed you were to the case. Not a lot of editors would have done that. Not a lot would have chanced it. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2081914/Stephen-Lawrences-parents-lead-tributes-Daily-Mail.html Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2081914/Stephen-Lawrences-parents-lead-tributes-Daily-Mail.html#ixzz1iTpQArp7 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Sam Hudson Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:03 AM Like many living in the UK today, we are sick and tired of carpet slipper treatment concerning race. What about those who burn the union flag at the homecoming of dead service men and women. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Arnie Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:17 AM The hope now must be that these two will accept the reality of their guilty verdict and give evidence against the other three murderers in return for a lighter sentence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:51 AM "Sam" might have a point about the emphasis placed on race crime. Such murders are mercifully very rare (though another did occur last week), but not the murder of black youths which is a major plague in this country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:52 AM A discussion of the double jeopardy point by the learned Joshua Rozenberg here http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/jan/03/double-jeopardy-change-law-retrial?newsfeed=true It will be seen that it could not assist Dobson in any case. The extent of the evidential contamination was exhaustively analysed in the trial and I see no reason to think that the jury got it wrong. The two unpleasant racists now found guilty were there, and there is no reason that I can see for any significant doubt that they were involved in the attack that included the murder. I find what Keith is trying to say very opaque. Clarity would assist in evaluation but at the moment it rather look as as if Keith is saying (or even agreeing with "Sam", if that is what Sam is trying to say which would not surprise me) that Afro-Caribbean youths deserve to be killed because Muslims sometimes burn the Union Jack or protest at the funerals of soldiers. I'm sure that is not what Keith means to say but it looks a bit that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:58 AM Give me a break Richard! I am saying that black youths die almost daily with little media attention or campaigning, while these very rare crimes are massive stories. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Sam Hudson Date: 04 Jan 12 - 07:37 AM Sentenced to 14 and 15 years, they will be out in less than six years with 50% remission and time already spent in custody. Appeal already submitted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,redhorse at work Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:37 AM Ignore SamH's nonsense about 50% remission above. They were sentenced to life, not 14 and 15 years. 14 and 15 years is how long they will have to wait before becoming eligible for parole. And to get parole then, they will have to acknowlege guilt, which seems improbable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:42 AM Right. That was the minimum term they must serve. The hope is they will acknowledge guilt and testify against others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:45 AM The parents of Stephen must have suffered dreadfully all these years. Maybe now they can move forward a little and rebuild their lives. I really pity them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: goatfell Date: 04 Jan 12 - 09:33 AM Gary Dobson will serve a minimum of 15 years and two months, and David Norris 14 years and three months. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 04 Jan 12 - 09:59 AM Keith says "I am saying that black youths die almost daily with little media attention or campaigning, while these very rare crimes are massive stories." I'd value sources for that. A short rummage on the internet does not reveal "almost daily" murders of black youth - the closest I turned up was a bit out of date and 104 black murder and GBH victims a few years back in London. It's frequently stated that victims are more likely to be black than white, and sometimes that this is the result of black on black violence, but since the UK murder rate hovers at about 600 per year I'm having a bit of trouble matching Keith's figures. I'm even less clear what "these very rare crimes" are by way of definition. But I'm almost wholly confused when Keith says ""Sam" might have a point about the emphasis placed on race crime". Sam actually said "carpet slipper treatment concerning race". What it is that Keith is almost agreeing with? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: ChrisJBrady Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:04 AM But three more swaggering thugs to go - unless the Met. give up due to cost cuts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Sam Hudson Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:26 AM Let's hope they now re-open the investigation into the brutal murder of PC Keith Blakelock now. Treat this new investigation with the same rigour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Jack Campin Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:09 PM Is Jim Radford reading this? The BBC reports on his "Song for Stephen" here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16315568 I can't find a version on-line. Is there one? Jim Radford's site |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:24 PM It is just so sad that the loved ones of any murder victim should have to wait more than 18 years for some justice and to have to fight for it all the way. As well as the loss they have suffered this must have taken a terrible toll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Sam Hudson Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:11 PM One good thing to come out of this is it has got a lot of people thinking and expressing their views as shown on the BBC news tonight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: fat B****rd Date: 04 Jan 12 - 03:43 PM Good evening , Sam. By 'a lot of people' do you mean the elderly gentleman who said it was a "Stitch-ap" and used the n****r word?. I do however agree regarding the PC Blakelock murder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:46 PM What George said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Jan 12 - 04:13 AM You are misrepresenting me again Richard. I am not disagreeing with anything you have posted on this. I was referring to the fact that black youths are also disproportionately the victims of non-racist violent crime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:04 AM I am grateful for your second sentence Keith. But I still don't understand what you meant by "Sam might have a point about the emphasis placed on race crime". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:07 AM Funny, I seem to have had a post of careful unspecificity modded off. Either that or the post eater is at it again although I was pretty sure I saw it take. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: banjoman Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:12 AM I suggest the Doreen Lawrence should be recognised for the changes she has worked for for to find justice for her son. A remarkable woman - Deserves at least a Nobel Prize |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Sam Hudson Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:12 AM I see a Labour MP who has been promoted far beyond her capabilities now facing calls for her resignation over the case.This what you get when people are promoted to fill quota's. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/diane-abbott-faces-calls-to-resign-over-%E2%80%98racist%E2%80%99-tweet.html Samantha |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Manitas_at_home Date: 05 Jan 12 - 08:00 AM I thought Doreen and her ex-husband were awarded honours a few years ago for their charity work arising out of their son's murder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 05 Jan 12 - 09:37 AM Oh, and the idea that people are promoted to fill quotas (sic) isn't racist? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Jan 12 - 03:30 AM I think Labour's quota system was based on gender, not race. If there was a quota system for ethnic diversity, would that be inherently racist? If there was a full quota for your ethnicity, you would be refused because of your ethnicity. Would that be racist? And if someone was promoted on such a quota system who would not otherwise have been, would that be racist? And would suggesting that might have happened be racist?
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Bonzo3legs Date: 06 Jan 12 - 05:30 AM More labour nonsence!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Doc John Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:04 AM There has been an outcry about the leniency of the sentences that the judge passed; however it seems he was restricted by a law passed in parliament and so unable to give a longer one. Not a peep about the latter from the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade. However if a judge passes a lenient sentence when his hands aren't tied, we get a tirade from this brigade (who often know little about the case) about unelected, lefty, soft-on-crime judges. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:26 AM From today's Mail, usually regarded as a leading memnber of "the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade." "Britain's top law officer is carrying out an urgent review into whether Stephen Lawrence's killers should have received longer sentences. The Attorney General, Dominic Grieve, is assessing whether the jail terms handed out to Gary Dobson and David Norris this week are 'unduly lenient'. It follows a complaint from a member of the public, who believes the race-hate killers should have received stiffer penalties. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Jan 12 - 10:14 AM Any nation that has colonized as much of the world as the UK is in no position to now decide to discard citizens who don't line up with an ethnic purity standard some aspire to. I applaud them for making progress in finding justice for minority citizens. I predict that the current generation of young people in developed nations are growing up with such a commingling of cultures in their public schools today that there will be much less racism and homophobia (to name a few of their parents' generation struggles) than any other generation previously. If you learn to love people when you're children you're much less likely to hate them later as an adult. I see it in my own childrens' schools - they are shaping the face of the future as envisioned in Time magazine back in 1993. That was a year after my second mixed-race child was born. The world may have to wait for a lot of the old bigots to die off, but in a few decades, after power has shifted to today's crop of young people, it will be a better place, and they'll still appreciate the distinct cultural contributions of their various family members and mixed cultures. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:15 PM I was in tears watching the News as the parents of Anuj Bidve, the young Indian shot dead for no apparent reason in Salford on Boxing Day, stood in the cold while his father read a statement. Such a promising student, their only son. I can't say this was a racist killing as the case hasn't been fully prepared yet. But they stood there in utter despair shivering after their arrival from India, and it broke your heart. Why DO people kill like this so easily? It's psychopathic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:22 PM "Any nation that has colonized as much of the world as the UK is in no position to now decide to discard citizens who don't line up with an ethnic purity standard some aspire to." That statement needs shouting from every rooftop in Britain and it shouldn't be forgotten that the killers of Stephen Lawrence escaped justice for as long as they did due to police indifference http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Britain+skin+colour+still+matters%3a+racism+in+Britain+is+now+disguised...-a0180239457 Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:38 PM Incidentally, in UK parlance "public school" = "private fee paying school, usually boarding only, for pupils aged from 13 to 17". Prime example being Eton. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Rapparee Date: 06 Jan 12 - 03:38 PM Dave Grossman is correct in his assessment. I strongly urge his books, "On Killing" and "On Combat" to anyone interested in the issues of violence in today's society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Jan 12 - 05:22 PM So what do you call the schools that the general public go to and support with tax dollars? Private school? SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Barb'ry Date: 06 Jan 12 - 05:44 PM No, private school also means a public school... It's usually called a State school. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:30 PM There are in the UK for non-paying education: state schools (local authority schools of several flavours); faith schools (of many faiths - with varying links to varying state finances); and academies. A "private school" so-called is usually although private not a member of the headmasters' conference. Many in the UK opened their eyes this week and saw moronic racist thuggery condemned, racists on the run, and others of their gang cowards queueing up to sing. There is even a populist move to increase the sentences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Jan 12 - 12:29 AM Our 'state schools' are also sometimes known as 'maintained schools' ~~ i.e. maintained by a local authority or authorised academy-foundation. The judge pointed out that he was limited in the length of the 'life' sentence he could pass [in case that sounds a contradictory concept, it means the time that must be served before parole can even be considered] by the age of the offenders at the time of the offence; but it is open to a higher court, or, I believe, the Home Secretary, to increase this tariff, which is what many here hope will happen. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Jan 12 - 04:41 AM Eliza,I can't say this was a racist killing as the case hasn't been fully prepared yet. It can not be said in the media, but there seems little doubt. The arrogance of the accused in court was chilling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 07 Jan 12 - 04:47 AM The fact that the accused killer in the Bidve case gave his name in court as "Psycho" may be indicative. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Jan 12 - 04:55 AM Yes, but indicative of what, exactly, do you think, Richard? Surely it is significant that it was a non-white fellow citizen that he chose to practice his psychopathy on? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: alanabit Date: 07 Jan 12 - 06:25 AM I would like to keep an eye on that one and see what facts emerge in court first. The nickname "Psycho" was given to the former England defender Stuart Pearce. It was done with a mixture of humour and grim appreciation of his ruthless tackling. In the case of the Bidve killing, the "humour" leaves a sour taste in the mouth, doesn't it? I read Rapparee's link, which is certainly food for thought. I am not sure whether I agree with the main thesis, which appears to be that media representation of violence helps to lower the threshold at which young people kill. It is well argued though and worth thinking about. In the meantime, just let me add that I hope the remainder of Stephen Lawrence's killers will soon join the two thugs who were sent down earlier in the week. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Owen Woodson Date: 07 Jan 12 - 10:30 AM I've just seen the statement from Stilly River Sage about race equality and colonialism and I can only say Amen. The sooner the people of this world realise that we are all the one sentient emotive species, and the sooner that racism, sexism, homophobia, travellerphobia, islamophobia, and all the other 'isms and 'obias are rendered totally redundant, the happier I will be. As Auld Hamish put it: "Nae mair will our bonnie callants Merch tae war whan our braggarts crousely craw Nor wee weans frae pitheid an clachan Murn the ships sailin doun the Broomielaw Broken faimilies in launs we've hairriet Will curse 'Scotlan the Brave' nae mair, nae mair Black an white ane-til-ither mairriet Mak the vile barracks o thair maisters bare" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST Date: 08 Jan 12 - 04:50 AM "Incidentally, in UK parlance "public school" AFAIK in Scotland fee paying schools are generally called private schools rather than public schools which is more English usage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Jan 12 - 06:19 AM Interesting article in today's Sunday Times on the continued persecution of Stephen Lawrence's friend and fellow victim, Duwayne Brooks, by the police which includes a reference to the attempted smearing of both he and and Lawrence as being "no angels" (drug dealing and attempted rape included - both unproven and unprosecuted). Also a description of the 'good people of Elthham' ("what were they doing in Eltham anyway") where it was not uncommon for black people to have missiles thrown at them from passing cars. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 08 Jan 12 - 05:23 PM Guest - Gordonstoun? Loretto? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 08 Jan 12 - 07:07 PM "Guest - Gordonstoun? Loretto?" The traditional term in Scotland for these schools is private school rather than public school which is an English term. In recent years the term 'indepedent school' has come into use supposedly to stop this type of confusion. On their websites Gordonstoun, Loretto, Fettes and George Heriot's all use the terms 'independent school' or 'independent education'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 09 Jan 12 - 08:17 AM The people I knew who went to Gordonstoun and Loretto always referred to them as "public schools". I don't think I ever knew anyone who went to the other two you cite. "Independent schools" includes the schools that are not members of the Headmasters' conference. "Public School" does not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 09 Jan 12 - 02:00 PM "The people I knew who went to Gordonstoun and Loretto always referred to them as "public schools"." As I said the traditional term in Scotland is private school, and that is still what most people tend to call them,though the term now used by the schools themselves is independent. The other two schools are two of the most well known Edinburgh private schools. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 09 Jan 12 - 02:19 PM "The following is a partial list of currently operating independent schools in Scotland. They are referred to as "private schools" in Scotland, common with most of the English-speaking world. The term "public school", used in England to refer to these independently operating schools, is not used in Scotland." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_independent_schools_in_Scotland Fair enough it is wiki but there are plenty of other sites to corroborate including the various schools' own sites. The term public school is simply not commonly used in Scotland |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 10 Jan 12 - 03:16 AM 'So what do you call the schools that the general public go to and support with tax dollars? Private school?' We don't use dollars in Britain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 10 Jan 12 - 03:18 AM I wonder if Spielberg's been on the blower to Denzel yet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:18 AM 'So what do you call the schools that the general public go to and support with tax dollars? Private school?' Again in Scotland a fee paying school was traditionally called a private school (as opposed to the English usage public school) though the term independent school is now widely used. Schools for the general populace were at one time called public schools in Scotland though the term state-funded school is now used as it is in England. |