Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:18 AM 'So what do you call the schools that the general public go to and support with tax dollars? Private school?' Again in Scotland a fee paying school was traditionally called a private school (as opposed to the English usage public school) though the term independent school is now widely used. Schools for the general populace were at one time called public schools in Scotland though the term state-funded school is now used as it is in England. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 10 Jan 12 - 03:18 AM I wonder if Spielberg's been on the blower to Denzel yet? |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 10 Jan 12 - 03:16 AM 'So what do you call the schools that the general public go to and support with tax dollars? Private school?' We don't use dollars in Britain. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 09 Jan 12 - 02:19 PM "The following is a partial list of currently operating independent schools in Scotland. They are referred to as "private schools" in Scotland, common with most of the English-speaking world. The term "public school", used in England to refer to these independently operating schools, is not used in Scotland." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_independent_schools_in_Scotland Fair enough it is wiki but there are plenty of other sites to corroborate including the various schools' own sites. The term public school is simply not commonly used in Scotland |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 09 Jan 12 - 02:00 PM "The people I knew who went to Gordonstoun and Loretto always referred to them as "public schools"." As I said the traditional term in Scotland is private school, and that is still what most people tend to call them,though the term now used by the schools themselves is independent. The other two schools are two of the most well known Edinburgh private schools. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 09 Jan 12 - 08:17 AM The people I knew who went to Gordonstoun and Loretto always referred to them as "public schools". I don't think I ever knew anyone who went to the other two you cite. "Independent schools" includes the schools that are not members of the Headmasters' conference. "Public School" does not. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 08 Jan 12 - 07:07 PM "Guest - Gordonstoun? Loretto?" The traditional term in Scotland for these schools is private school rather than public school which is an English term. In recent years the term 'indepedent school' has come into use supposedly to stop this type of confusion. On their websites Gordonstoun, Loretto, Fettes and George Heriot's all use the terms 'independent school' or 'independent education'. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 08 Jan 12 - 05:23 PM Guest - Gordonstoun? Loretto? |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Jan 12 - 06:19 AM Interesting article in today's Sunday Times on the continued persecution of Stephen Lawrence's friend and fellow victim, Duwayne Brooks, by the police which includes a reference to the attempted smearing of both he and and Lawrence as being "no angels" (drug dealing and attempted rape included - both unproven and unprosecuted). Also a description of the 'good people of Elthham' ("what were they doing in Eltham anyway") where it was not uncommon for black people to have missiles thrown at them from passing cars. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST Date: 08 Jan 12 - 04:50 AM "Incidentally, in UK parlance "public school" AFAIK in Scotland fee paying schools are generally called private schools rather than public schools which is more English usage. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Owen Woodson Date: 07 Jan 12 - 10:30 AM I've just seen the statement from Stilly River Sage about race equality and colonialism and I can only say Amen. The sooner the people of this world realise that we are all the one sentient emotive species, and the sooner that racism, sexism, homophobia, travellerphobia, islamophobia, and all the other 'isms and 'obias are rendered totally redundant, the happier I will be. As Auld Hamish put it: "Nae mair will our bonnie callants Merch tae war whan our braggarts crousely craw Nor wee weans frae pitheid an clachan Murn the ships sailin doun the Broomielaw Broken faimilies in launs we've hairriet Will curse 'Scotlan the Brave' nae mair, nae mair Black an white ane-til-ither mairriet Mak the vile barracks o thair maisters bare" |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: alanabit Date: 07 Jan 12 - 06:25 AM I would like to keep an eye on that one and see what facts emerge in court first. The nickname "Psycho" was given to the former England defender Stuart Pearce. It was done with a mixture of humour and grim appreciation of his ruthless tackling. In the case of the Bidve killing, the "humour" leaves a sour taste in the mouth, doesn't it? I read Rapparee's link, which is certainly food for thought. I am not sure whether I agree with the main thesis, which appears to be that media representation of violence helps to lower the threshold at which young people kill. It is well argued though and worth thinking about. In the meantime, just let me add that I hope the remainder of Stephen Lawrence's killers will soon join the two thugs who were sent down earlier in the week. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Jan 12 - 04:55 AM Yes, but indicative of what, exactly, do you think, Richard? Surely it is significant that it was a non-white fellow citizen that he chose to practice his psychopathy on? ~M~ |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 07 Jan 12 - 04:47 AM The fact that the accused killer in the Bidve case gave his name in court as "Psycho" may be indicative. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Jan 12 - 04:41 AM Eliza,I can't say this was a racist killing as the case hasn't been fully prepared yet. It can not be said in the media, but there seems little doubt. The arrogance of the accused in court was chilling. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Jan 12 - 12:29 AM Our 'state schools' are also sometimes known as 'maintained schools' ~~ i.e. maintained by a local authority or authorised academy-foundation. The judge pointed out that he was limited in the length of the 'life' sentence he could pass [in case that sounds a contradictory concept, it means the time that must be served before parole can even be considered] by the age of the offenders at the time of the offence; but it is open to a higher court, or, I believe, the Home Secretary, to increase this tariff, which is what many here hope will happen. ~M~ |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:30 PM There are in the UK for non-paying education: state schools (local authority schools of several flavours); faith schools (of many faiths - with varying links to varying state finances); and academies. A "private school" so-called is usually although private not a member of the headmasters' conference. Many in the UK opened their eyes this week and saw moronic racist thuggery condemned, racists on the run, and others of their gang cowards queueing up to sing. There is even a populist move to increase the sentences. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Barb'ry Date: 06 Jan 12 - 05:44 PM No, private school also means a public school... It's usually called a State school. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Jan 12 - 05:22 PM So what do you call the schools that the general public go to and support with tax dollars? Private school? SRS |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Rapparee Date: 06 Jan 12 - 03:38 PM Dave Grossman is correct in his assessment. I strongly urge his books, "On Killing" and "On Combat" to anyone interested in the issues of violence in today's society. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:38 PM Incidentally, in UK parlance "public school" = "private fee paying school, usually boarding only, for pupils aged from 13 to 17". Prime example being Eton. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:22 PM "Any nation that has colonized as much of the world as the UK is in no position to now decide to discard citizens who don't line up with an ethnic purity standard some aspire to." That statement needs shouting from every rooftop in Britain and it shouldn't be forgotten that the killers of Stephen Lawrence escaped justice for as long as they did due to police indifference http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Britain+skin+colour+still+matters%3a+racism+in+Britain+is+now+disguised...-a0180239457 Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:15 PM I was in tears watching the News as the parents of Anuj Bidve, the young Indian shot dead for no apparent reason in Salford on Boxing Day, stood in the cold while his father read a statement. Such a promising student, their only son. I can't say this was a racist killing as the case hasn't been fully prepared yet. But they stood there in utter despair shivering after their arrival from India, and it broke your heart. Why DO people kill like this so easily? It's psychopathic. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Jan 12 - 10:14 AM Any nation that has colonized as much of the world as the UK is in no position to now decide to discard citizens who don't line up with an ethnic purity standard some aspire to. I applaud them for making progress in finding justice for minority citizens. I predict that the current generation of young people in developed nations are growing up with such a commingling of cultures in their public schools today that there will be much less racism and homophobia (to name a few of their parents' generation struggles) than any other generation previously. If you learn to love people when you're children you're much less likely to hate them later as an adult. I see it in my own childrens' schools - they are shaping the face of the future as envisioned in Time magazine back in 1993. That was a year after my second mixed-race child was born. The world may have to wait for a lot of the old bigots to die off, but in a few decades, after power has shifted to today's crop of young people, it will be a better place, and they'll still appreciate the distinct cultural contributions of their various family members and mixed cultures. SRS |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:26 AM From today's Mail, usually regarded as a leading memnber of "the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade." "Britain's top law officer is carrying out an urgent review into whether Stephen Lawrence's killers should have received longer sentences. The Attorney General, Dominic Grieve, is assessing whether the jail terms handed out to Gary Dobson and David Norris this week are 'unduly lenient'. It follows a complaint from a member of the public, who believes the race-hate killers should have received stiffer penalties. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Doc John Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:04 AM There has been an outcry about the leniency of the sentences that the judge passed; however it seems he was restricted by a law passed in parliament and so unable to give a longer one. Not a peep about the latter from the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade. However if a judge passes a lenient sentence when his hands aren't tied, we get a tirade from this brigade (who often know little about the case) about unelected, lefty, soft-on-crime judges. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Bonzo3legs Date: 06 Jan 12 - 05:30 AM More labour nonsence!!! |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Jan 12 - 03:30 AM I think Labour's quota system was based on gender, not race. If there was a quota system for ethnic diversity, would that be inherently racist? If there was a full quota for your ethnicity, you would be refused because of your ethnicity. Would that be racist? And if someone was promoted on such a quota system who would not otherwise have been, would that be racist? And would suggesting that might have happened be racist?
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Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 05 Jan 12 - 09:37 AM Oh, and the idea that people are promoted to fill quotas (sic) isn't racist? |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Manitas_at_home Date: 05 Jan 12 - 08:00 AM I thought Doreen and her ex-husband were awarded honours a few years ago for their charity work arising out of their son's murder. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Sam Hudson Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:12 AM I see a Labour MP who has been promoted far beyond her capabilities now facing calls for her resignation over the case.This what you get when people are promoted to fill quota's. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/diane-abbott-faces-calls-to-resign-over-%E2%80%98racist%E2%80%99-tweet.html Samantha |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: banjoman Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:12 AM I suggest the Doreen Lawrence should be recognised for the changes she has worked for for to find justice for her son. A remarkable woman - Deserves at least a Nobel Prize |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:07 AM Funny, I seem to have had a post of careful unspecificity modded off. Either that or the post eater is at it again although I was pretty sure I saw it take. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:04 AM I am grateful for your second sentence Keith. But I still don't understand what you meant by "Sam might have a point about the emphasis placed on race crime". |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Jan 12 - 04:13 AM You are misrepresenting me again Richard. I am not disagreeing with anything you have posted on this. I was referring to the fact that black youths are also disproportionately the victims of non-racist violent crime. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:46 PM What George said. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: fat B****rd Date: 04 Jan 12 - 03:43 PM Good evening , Sam. By 'a lot of people' do you mean the elderly gentleman who said it was a "Stitch-ap" and used the n****r word?. I do however agree regarding the PC Blakelock murder. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Sam Hudson Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:11 PM One good thing to come out of this is it has got a lot of people thinking and expressing their views as shown on the BBC news tonight. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:24 PM It is just so sad that the loved ones of any murder victim should have to wait more than 18 years for some justice and to have to fight for it all the way. As well as the loss they have suffered this must have taken a terrible toll. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Jack Campin Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:09 PM Is Jim Radford reading this? The BBC reports on his "Song for Stephen" here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16315568 I can't find a version on-line. Is there one? Jim Radford's site |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Sam Hudson Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:26 AM Let's hope they now re-open the investigation into the brutal murder of PC Keith Blakelock now. Treat this new investigation with the same rigour. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: ChrisJBrady Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:04 AM But three more swaggering thugs to go - unless the Met. give up due to cost cuts. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 04 Jan 12 - 09:59 AM Keith says "I am saying that black youths die almost daily with little media attention or campaigning, while these very rare crimes are massive stories." I'd value sources for that. A short rummage on the internet does not reveal "almost daily" murders of black youth - the closest I turned up was a bit out of date and 104 black murder and GBH victims a few years back in London. It's frequently stated that victims are more likely to be black than white, and sometimes that this is the result of black on black violence, but since the UK murder rate hovers at about 600 per year I'm having a bit of trouble matching Keith's figures. I'm even less clear what "these very rare crimes" are by way of definition. But I'm almost wholly confused when Keith says ""Sam" might have a point about the emphasis placed on race crime". Sam actually said "carpet slipper treatment concerning race". What it is that Keith is almost agreeing with? |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: goatfell Date: 04 Jan 12 - 09:33 AM Gary Dobson will serve a minimum of 15 years and two months, and David Norris 14 years and three months. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:45 AM The parents of Stephen must have suffered dreadfully all these years. Maybe now they can move forward a little and rebuild their lives. I really pity them. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:42 AM Right. That was the minimum term they must serve. The hope is they will acknowledge guilt and testify against others. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,redhorse at work Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:37 AM Ignore SamH's nonsense about 50% remission above. They were sentenced to life, not 14 and 15 years. 14 and 15 years is how long they will have to wait before becoming eligible for parole. And to get parole then, they will have to acknowlege guilt, which seems improbable. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: GUEST,Sam Hudson Date: 04 Jan 12 - 07:37 AM Sentenced to 14 and 15 years, they will be out in less than six years with 50% remission and time already spent in custody. Appeal already submitted. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:58 AM Give me a break Richard! I am saying that black youths die almost daily with little media attention or campaigning, while these very rare crimes are massive stories. |
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993) From: Richard Bridge Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:52 AM A discussion of the double jeopardy point by the learned Joshua Rozenberg here http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/jan/03/double-jeopardy-change-law-retrial?newsfeed=true It will be seen that it could not assist Dobson in any case. The extent of the evidential contamination was exhaustively analysed in the trial and I see no reason to think that the jury got it wrong. The two unpleasant racists now found guilty were there, and there is no reason that I can see for any significant doubt that they were involved in the attack that included the murder. I find what Keith is trying to say very opaque. Clarity would assist in evaluation but at the moment it rather look as as if Keith is saying (or even agreeing with "Sam", if that is what Sam is trying to say which would not surprise me) that Afro-Caribbean youths deserve to be killed because Muslims sometimes burn the Union Jack or protest at the funerals of soldiers. I'm sure that is not what Keith means to say but it looks a bit that way. |