Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???

Subject: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: bradfordian
Date: 28 May 11 - 05:18 AM

Following on from Genie's comments..............
This is just to open up discussion on the feasibility of putting the new Mudcat CDs on-line for down loading.

Your thoughts are welcome.

bradfordian

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 May 11 - 09:45 AM

You might just consider providing a sample download of each song, i.e., only first verse and chorus (if there is one), from a website. I offer the same option from my personal website and so does my group Roll & Go. It facilitates someone learning the song if that is their primary purpose.

Alternatively request a charge for each download for the full song or CD. If they want the "Full Monty" they should pay!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 May 11 - 12:35 PM

I agree with Charley. If someone just wants it to load on the portable listening device, surely they can buy the CDs, load them into their harddrive and then onto their mp3 player or whatever?

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 28 May 11 - 01:12 PM

If the point of the collection is to raise funds for Mudcat, you should make them available as CDs and also as downloads. If the point is to have a set of collectibles of music by and for Mudcatters, CD-only might suffice.

Amazon has a website where you can upload and sell your music (or books or films) with no start-up cost, where they take a commission on each sale. Amazon's Self-Publishing Create space

This might be a place where a link from Mudcat and commissions payable to Mudcat would work for those interested in downloads, and could go on regardless of physical inventory.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 28 May 11 - 08:50 PM

I'm more likely to get a download, but I'm one of those filthy teenagers that barely remembers the days of LPs.

It's simple enough to create a sample if you want to do it yourself, just copy out a section of the song, throw in a fade in and fade out via Audacity and Bob's your uncle. Or aunt. I'm never quite sure with him.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: bradfordian
Date: 29 May 11 - 10:41 AM

The contributors to this series of CDs have all consented to have their music on a CD. They have not consented to be put on-line. All contributors would need to be canvassed as to whether they want to consent to their music being put on line. It should be fairly straight forward to set up an account with one of the download service providers with those whose agreement has been given, if that is a majority view.

I'm not familiar with these service providers, but I'm sure some of you can recommend one.

The same considerations could be made for the old Blue Plate Specials and then we could relieve Dick of producing any more of those. Demand for the Blkue Plate Specials must suerly have tailed off by now. they have been around for 9 years (Really!!!)

bradfordian

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 May 11 - 09:01 PM

No problemo. It's for a good cause.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 May 11 - 09:43 PM

Thanks, Dick!

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: Janie
Date: 30 May 11 - 01:01 AM

I can certainly understand the benefits of the songs being publicly available for download, both in terms of fund raising for Mudcat, and for the professional or semi-professional musicians among us to promote and make their music more widely available.

For professional reasons unrelated to anything related to music, however, I could not grant permission for my paltry contribution to be available for download from a public site if it were in any way possible for a savy and persistent searcher to ascertain my 3-D identity.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 May 11 - 02:06 PM

As a confirmed download-hater, I can only comment that peddling downloads assumes that all the effort that went into packaging and disc design was really superfluous. I disgree.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 30 May 11 - 07:26 PM

The graphics (cover art, liner notes, disc surface) for a cd is often made available with downloads, so the design efforts would not be superfluous. In fact, the cover art is the usual means of displaying the song and the cd it came from on a download site.

I don't personally download much, but I know people who ONLY download. I did all the graphics for all three ShoreGrass cds and made them available as physical albums, digital albums and individual download mp3's. But then I'm a retired techie who enjoys the process as well as revels in new technology. Usually.

This is a very common issue today: printed directories vs online searchable databases, physical cds vs downloadable mp3's, books vs kindle readers, Newspapers vs websites, etc. Me, I want it all.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: michaelr
Date: 30 May 11 - 07:54 PM

My work is volunteered as graphic artist for this set because I like to have physical, printed information in hand, preferably with a nice picture to look at. I gather I'm not alone in this. When listening to music for the first time, I look at song notes, who's playing what, and lyrics. (Call me old-fashioned, but I don't use earbuds.)

OTOH as Barbara says, there are those who ONLY download. I would be in favor of making downloads (not free!) available, say, six months after the CD set is released.

Comment for Janie: if it were in any way possible for a savy and persistent searcher to ascertain my 3-D identity.

I hate to tell you, but it's too late already. Just ask gargoyle...

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: maeve
Date: 30 May 11 - 09:09 PM

I see no reason why some 'Catters' selections couldn't be cd only, while others could give permission for their selections to be available for mp3 downloads. Like Janie, I only agreed to the cds.

Maeve

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 31 May 11 - 12:17 AM

The problem with online downloads (other than that they are easily shared and not everyone wants that) is that they tend to separate the song from the collection. This means (a) potentially less money for Mudcat if someone only buys the few songs they're most interested in and (b) it could take income away from artists who have or plan to include the tracks they are donating as part of other projects. For this reason, I would suggest that any downloads be whole CD only, and not by the individual song.

Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 31 May 11 - 03:00 AM

The problem with online downloads (other than that they are easily shared and not everyone wants that) is that they tend to separate the song from the collection

The latter point is easily fixed. Offer it as one big zip as opposed to letting people choose which songs to buy. And now I've read your full post and you agree with me. Apologies.

The sharing is one that would be a point of trust. If I were to have the physical copy, it would be simple enough for me to share it if I were so inclined (which I'm not).

I can only comment that peddling downloads assumes that all the effort that went into packaging and disc design was really superfluous

I disagree with you there. There's an album I have by a band called Sabaton called "Coat of Arms". I bought it from iTunes after I saw them perform (long story short, I went to see another band perform and the other two acts were good enough to warrant me buying their albums when I got home). Included in the download was a pdf of the liner notes, which for someone like Sabaton is useful - they're a power metal group who's songs are based on historical battles, and I'd like to know what they're singing about.

...any way possible for a savy and persistent searcher to ascertain my 3-D identity.

I don't know how the CDs are currently packaged, but a glance suggests that the Mudcat pseudonyms are marked as the artists. One would assume that the download would follow a similar pattern.

Granted, I'm prodownload, but it's mostly out of cost for me. US delivery has always been stupidly expensive, and I've had problems with custom charges the few times I've done it.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 May 11 - 10:46 AM

Delivery charges for destinations on either side of the pond will be comparable, with no customs charges involved. S&H costs will be included in the price of the CDs .(advantages of having multiple points of origin.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: Bill D
Date: 31 May 11 - 10:57 AM

My thought is that CDs cannot be accidently deleted with a careless push of a button. If someone wants to rip the CD to MP3s and sort it and avoid certain tracks, there's nothing to stop them.

I would suggest, though, that 'sales' be of the original format.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: Jeri
Date: 31 May 11 - 11:17 AM

I don't there's any good reason to not give people a choice.

Some of us may not have i-thingies, and some of us may not have CD players. Not everybody who has an iPod has a way to rip CDs. (I'm guessing--I don't have an iPod, and I don't currently even have a printer.)

Some people who would never buy a CD would maybe buy a song or two for a buck each somewhere a la CD Baby. If you get 20 people to buy one song, it's $20, and you didn't pay anything to have CDs burnt, paper printed, jewel cases stuffed or product mailed. You never sell out of product.

I vote for both.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 31 May 11 - 01:27 PM

I believe we would still need to obtain permission from each artist for any mp3 sales.

MP3 sales are a complicated business - it takes away a great deal of income from musicians, because people no longer buy an album for one or two songs - they just go and buy those songs. Or they just listen to them as part of a streaming service, and the artist ends up getting a penny (or less) for that. I ended up with that for my Bring the Morning Home CD, and it's not a mistake I'm likely to make again.

Any songs that require licenses have to be handled differently if they are available digitally. There are different types of licenses for worldwide distribution (which we would of course have), and for streaming verses one time download. For some, those licenses have to be renewed and paid annually - and for those who work through an agency, like Harry Fox, these have to be renewed annually, and there is a minimum payment amount. This is true regardless of whether the songs is purchased individually or as part of a CD.

These sales also offer a lesser audio quality - mp3 is not an equivalent to CD quality. While with many of our recordings, which are more homemade, that won't be an issue, it could be with some artists.

Again, for this purpose I'd not encourage individual songs being available for download - and because of the other issues involved, I'm somewhat dubious about online sales at all. It's a complicated can of worms.

Warmly,
Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: Genie
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 01:40 AM

Just to be perfectly clear, when I suggested a downloadable version of these CDs, it was PAID downloads - via iTunes (or iTunes clones).

The advantage to that is that it saves shipping costs. Many people immediately transfer the songs on CDs they buy to mp3s or AIFF files right away anyway - either to make their own "mix" CDs or to put the songs on an iPod - and then they never play the physical CD again.

I do like the idea of short clips from songs on the Mudcat CD's being able to be heard free online, so people can decide whether they want to buy the CD itself. But no way would I suggest that we make these CDs downloadable at no charge. That would mean a lot of people put in a lot of work (and talent) for nothing (nothing tangible, anyway), plus it would mean the fundraiser purpose being thwarted.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: Max
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 10:38 PM

I'm trying but can't find a legit reason not to UNDER THE CONDITIONS

1) it's an all or nothing sale, whole album only, no single track sales

2) dick and all creative producers and performers come to consensus and have ZERO reservations.

rutabaga) We (OK maybe just I) pretend mudcat is an ideal universe, and the autonomy we've earned by staying independent and small, never having anything in which to be sued for, never selling out or taking a dollar from any imposing will (once upon a time turned down our still largest grant to date cuz they wanted us to remove the swear words from the db and forum... rugby songs... dirty bastards), so we actually have some good opportunities to shoot for ideals. I consider dick's book publishing an excellent example of an elegant simplicity.

Lets brainstorm for a moment and reinvent the business of Folk Music. Is Rounder for sale? Lets pretend we had investors. Lets consider no obstacles. So what is the ideal record deal, distribution model, profit sharing, new paradigm, no limitations scenario? Can we leverage the single most popular folk music web site in the world to reinvent the industry.

3)I'm not worried about lost sales from sharing as much as I am managing the rights, intellectual property protection to hundred little things instead of one thing.

4)There is no good economic model in sharing revenue with a streaming service or other commercial delivery mechanism such as iTunes, and I am sure the hard work that went into this was not for them. I would be inclined to handle the downloads on our own or with our own cloud space, even though the inevitable letter from ASCAP cleverly intimating that we should have a mechanical license

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' online download?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 02:03 AM

I like DrugCrazed's suggestion.   Something that irks me often when I see "snippets" of a performance or recording presented as 'representative' of the longer work is that it may not amount to "putting the best foot forward." The chorus is not always the strong point, nor is the opening or closing line.
I like the idea of the performer(s) choosing his/her/their own 20-second "sample" snippet of the song for people to hear when checking out the album online.

Genie

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 04:46 AM

I'm confused, I said something right?

Rights wise, I don't know which you were going under. Part of me thinks the Creative Commons would be best, but I'm looking at this from the outside.

I also find it difficult to believe that people who have this CD would share it beyond close family (I know that I'd probably throw a copy at my mum, but nobody else)

Subject: 'This Is Us' series as digital album downloads?
From: Genie
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 10:01 AM

I'm hoping that offering the new Mudcat "This Is Us" CD series as online downloads is still being considered.   
It would avoid most if not all of the "shipping & handling" fees, plus it would make it easy to substitute higher-quality audio tracks for any tracks that had glitches (e.g., volume problems, skips) in the first batch of CDs that were produced.   And we wouldn't have to guestimate how many copies would be sold.

I agree that it's important for only whole albums to be sold, not individual tracks.   And maybe even a small discount could be offered for buying the whole 6-CD set as digital downloads.

But I think this could expand the fundraising power of the This Is Us series as well as its music-sharing power.

Genie

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 01:50 PM

I like this idea as well. I'd be delighted to be able to download the whole thing onto my computer and then transfer it to CDs (or not) -- and download PDFs of the artwork as well, and print them out for my CDs if I decide to.

Seems to me a "greener" option, as well as saving some money on Dick's expenses (CDs, paper, ink, postage). My suggestion would be to sell downloads (whole albums, as previously specified) at prices that are a bit less than buying hard copies, but would leave Mudcat with the bigger portion of whatever money is saved from going digital -- which would make it win-win, yes?

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:03 PM

I think everyone's overestimating demand. Yes, we wouldn't have to pay for CDs, paper, and ink, but we've already paid for that.And, from what I've seen, downloads don't make any money except for the outfit (such as ITunes, Amazon or CDBaby) that's providing the service.
Let's postpone this discussion until we can sell what we already have.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'This Is Us' on-line download???
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:08 PM

Fair enough...