BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 09:07 AM

So, according to Webster's in 1988, "careen" had not acquired the meaning of 'to rush wildly'.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 09:12 AM

Thank you, Art & Dave.

So, Ebbie & Bill ~~ hope you have got that.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 11:16 AM

I'm still workin' on it, MtheGM.

Sometimes it is more fun to present only what one has 'always' believed than it is to check the official tomes. :)

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 11:22 AM

I meant to comment on: Marmalade is 'jam' made from oranges

Without looking in the dictionary, I had got the impression that unlike a jam or jelly a marmalade has bits of the skin, the peel, in it. (And I do realize that jam, with its chunks of whole fruit, does contain peel. I didn't say I had it well thought out.)

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 11:56 AM

Most marmalades have the peel, either thinly or thickly cut. However, there are Golden and Silver Shreds, which have a clear jelly with very few shreds in, and are used to introduce children to the bitterer adult varieties. I believe the makers, Robertsons, have a shredless version, as well. I remember being very disappointed at a hotel in Cumbria which had, on a previous visit, given me Frank Cooper's Oxford Marmalade, when Golden Shred arrived on my table.

As for not serving preserves on bread, that was the preserved fruit, I imagine. Not the jammy stuff.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:41 PM

As a kid growing up in the US, I learned to distinguish jelly/jam/preserves this way.

They are all sweet and fruit-based, and used to spread on toast at breakfast, or on peanut-butter sandwiches as a snack for kids.

Jelly is clear, or nearly so, because as much pulp and fiber as possible has been strained out of it by pouring the liquid through a cloth before it sets. It wiggles when you shake it, and you can see through it.

Jam has some of the pulp left in (I suppose because it is strained through a coarser cloth or maybe a colander?). It doesn't wiggle, and you can't see through it. It has more of a pasty texture, but is uniform, with no lumps.

Preserves are lumpy because they have visible, recognizable chunks of cut-up fruit in them.

I know drippings from meat if left to cool, would sometimes form gelatinous goo in the bottom of the pan, but we never ate it in that form. (Instead, my mother would usually add flour to the drippings it and cook it into gravy.) I didn't know any name for that gelatinous stuff. It would never have occurred to me to call it jelly because, in my opinion, it was disgusting and inedible, especially since it was brown instead of fruit-colored. I remember seeing similar stuff in a canned ham.

I never heard of aspic and probably would have refused to eat it if I had seen it.

Jell-O was just Jell-O. I seem to recall that at some point it was advertised as "Jell-O brand gelatin dessert," probably because the maker did NOT want their brand name to turn into a generic term, because then they would lose the exclusive right to use it. (Such is the price of having a near-monopoly.) Anyway, that's how I learned the term "gelatin."

In my limited experience as a child, NO form of gelatin was ever served with meat—cranberry "sauce" being the unique exception; it was served with turkey at Thanksgiving. But it was called "sauce," not jelly or gelatin, although it had all the characteristics of jelly.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:52 PM

I used to love the jelly on meat - still do, when I can get it. Most cold meat nowadays has the interesting bits surgically extracted!

In our house, cranberry sauce, with turkey, camembert etc, is just referred to as "jam" (no cranberry).

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 05:10 PM

Mint jelly with lamb - always.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 07:06 PM

Mint sauce with lamb - mint jelly doesn't work so well.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 12:14 AM

One of my ancestors became an exile for stealing sheep. Because of that I have no desire to consume the beast with or without mint jelly!

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 03:39 AM

Mint sauce, for non-Brits, is chopped garden mint steeped in vinegar, malt vinegar usually. It is a liquid with added bits, not a sauce as is generally known, depending on the amount of mint.

Thinking about it, has anyone a favourite mixture with added ingredients?

Sandy, why not? Your ancestor obviously did!

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:34 PM

The word "reckon" isn't heard very often in the US. Most people would consider it quaint or dialectical. I don't think you'd ever hear a TV reporter say it. I think it's used mainly in the South. My father used it a lot. He grew up on a farm in Kentucky.

I was surprised and pleased to find it is rather common in the UK.

"How much do you reckon it'll cost?"

"I reckon we'll have some rain this afternoon."

"I reckon it's about time to eat."

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:49 PM

Because it fits here as well, the below is from another thread. I might as well tag it on this one too.

I would be all for referring to the languages (dialects included) which we use here in United States as American except I hate to piss off the Canucks.

I tend to think Micca had it right. English may have mugged other languages or as Topsie said, "mated with them," but here in the States we took English and ripped out the entrails, ate them for lunch, then pissed on the rest before scooping the leftovers into a bucket, shitting on it, and setting it on fire. That pretty well sums up the "American" language..........and we kinda' like it......sorta'..........

Ya' gotta' figure it was inevitable. This is probably the most ethnically diverse place in the world. Plus all that diversity happened in a very short time period. Additionally, as the country was settled and the Pacific reached, transportation grew rapidly. So instead of cities with huge ethnic populations living cheek by jowl we developed into an entire country that did the same as booms developed to the west and then flowed back to the east and the south and the Northwest and southwest and...........you get the idea. Even in the small eastern Ohio town where I was born, we had at least 12 (that I can easily count) groups living closely together.

It was only natural that all the other influences should change the English to "American." Hell, we don't even know where most of our words originated but we use them anyway. Sadly for many back in the UK, it seems their language is being taken over by nasty Americans. If you feel the need to hold the line for for "real" English, then y'all just go on out there and "git 'er done!" (;<))


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:51 PM

Reckon is dead in the south as well as the rest of the U.S. Once a word or usage is labeled as dialect or as a colloquism, it is dropped from use.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:58 PM

I don't think I agree with you Q cause I'd reckon we use reckon around here on a pretty regular basis. Plus, being identified as ethnic, or as a part of a dialect, or as vulgar, has not stopped or slowed the use of motherfucker in the least. (;<))


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:17 PM

What actually is a "raincheck"? and a "brownie point"? These are both phrases which have entered English from American TV - we understand what is meant from the context (or perhaps only think we do), but I don't actually know what they are.

The latter is permanently associated in my mind with the Brownies (a junior version of the Girl Guides, who are the Girl Scouts). I'm positive it has nothing whatsoever to do them.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:28 PM

Actually it does! Brownie points were bonus points awarded to pedophiles for molesting Brownies. Girl Scouts got 3 points and Brownies got 5. They discontinued this when too many of their members were claiming the points for fuckin' fudgecake................


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 08:14 PM

Whooo-ee! Hate to post following the Master, but-

raincheck- originally a ticket stub given when rain cancelled a game.
In stores now, it is a ticket or (recorded) promise given when some item, priced in a sale, is sold out but which guarantees the customer the item at the same price at a later date.

Brownie point- "a notional mark of achievment, or kudos for performing some creditable act."
Often credited to the Brownies, the lowest age group associated with the Girl Scouts (Guides in Canada and England(?)), but J. E. Lighter, Historical Dictionary of American Slang, found the oldest usage in Army jargon- "Blew his stack. Brownie points." 1944, MSU Folklore GF2.1.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: olddude
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 08:17 PM

Ok but now to the important things ... where did the word "LEW" come from?? when ya gotta go to the lew?

I have an aunt Lou, and she goes to the bathroom a lot, got one of those bladder condition things. She makes darn fine christmas cookies also ..

which leads to to another question, what is a crumpit?

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 08:45 PM

The last first- a crumpit is a gawd-awful biscuit.

The word is loo. A room with a toilet.

Then there is the loo table, which is a circular table on which loo- a card game - is played. I bought one from auction one time.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 02:22 AM

I have heard that 'Loo' comes from 'Garde l'eau' or 'look out for water,' shouted when emptying a chamber pot into the street, -in the old days, of course! Not sure that I believe it.

Q, "once a word is labelled as dialect or as a colloquialism, it is dropped from use"???   That's where they come from in the first place! Used by some 'in' group, picked up and promoted by talking heads on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 04:16 AM

I've never heard 'crumpet' as a biscuit - it's always a kind of pancake, shape and size depending on locality, cf Breton 'krampouezh'.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 04:45 AM

Ah, here's another fine example: a crumpet is in fact not that far from what they call a biscuit. But to us it is nearer to what we call a muffin, though they call that an English muffin, as their muffin is not a million miles from what we call a cupcake; while our biscuit is their cookie, as has been already remarked above...

And so wags the world away!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 05:16 AM

And what Michael calls a scone, Spaw calls a biscuit........Out of curiosity, do you have "sourdough" crumpets or is that something we dreamed up over here?


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 05:22 AM

No, Spaw; don't know what a sourdough crumpet is. The point of our crumpets, & what differentiates them from such relatives as [our] muffins, Scotch pancakes, &c, is that they are honeycombed with holes thru which the butter, jam &c, permeate. Delicious.

There is a sort of folktale [I think] that their recipe, the kind of flour used, and so on, are terribly hush-hush & secret and known only to the bakery trade...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM

I used to believe that American cookies were the same as English biscuits.

Then I saw an AOL "cookery hints" feature that offered advice on what to do if your cookies weren't soft! Advice like putting them in a container with some slices of apple!
English biscuits should be light and crisp. Putting them anywhere near anything moist would make them inedible (with the exception of an EXTREMELY quick dunking in a cup of tea before eating, just enough to soften the outside but leave the inside still crisp).

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 09:33 AM

AS you have heard, American "cookies" are usually crisp, but others are chewy ("soft").

I don't know how long the "soft" kind have been common. I first noticed them ca1960. I thought they were something new and strange, and it took me a while to get used to them.

(Fig Newtons, of course, have always been chewy, but although universally considered "cookies," they're closer in nature to tiny pastries.)

Sweetness is the common denominator. An unsweet (or slightly sweetened) crisp "cookie" is a "cracker." An unsweet fluffy thing is either an "English muffin" (a kind of bread) or a "biscuit" (a kind of bread raised with baking powder or baking soda). "Scones" are uncommon, though growing in popularity; people generally unfamiliar with them think of scones as a kind of "biscuit."

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: GUEST,Merseyside
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 04:47 PM

MARMITE!

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 06:36 PM

Lovely scones at the Banff Springs Hotel in Banff, Canada. I have posted the recipe in a thread, don't remember which.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 06:38 PM

I said crumpets were gawd-awful biscuits; I will emend to Gawd-awful whatevers.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 11:42 PM

I thought "crumpet" was also a slang British expression for a sexy woman. Has that changed?

Jay

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 12:15 AM

BrooklynJay ~~ still extant, but probably a bit old-hat slang nowadays. Not sure what it ever had to do with the sort of toasted muffin with holes; perhaps a sort of distant rhyming allusion to 'strumpet'?, tho Partridge gives comparison with 'buttered bun' -- perhaps something to do with sliding in easily? It is used rather as a collective term for sexy women generally, than for 'a sexy woman' as you render it, one at a time ~~ e.g. "Good party ~ plenty of crumpet!". Of an individual woman, one would rather say "She's a nice bit of crumpet", than just "She's a nice crumpet".

HTH

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:06 AM

Crumpets can be made at home. There's no secret to them. My Mum did it once. It is a bit of a palaver. They are made from a yeasted batter, which is poured into a ring on a griddle. They are a bit more than half an inch thick, with the base looking a bit like that of an American breakfast pancake, but the top holed like a Swiss cheese. Eaten without a topping, especially without buttered, they would be pretty dire, but they are supposed to have butter melted on them after toasting. It occurs to me they might be good carriers of maple syrup. Nothing like any sort of biscuit, British or American.

See also pikelets, which are thinner.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:07 AM

Thanks, Penny. I eat them for breakfast practically every day, with lots of butter & jam or marmalade permeating. What I want to know is how they get honeycombed with holes like that.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:35 AM

They are made from a frothy batter (bubbles of corbondioxide). The bubbles get bigger as they cook, and burst at the surface, producing holes.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:39 AM

Ah. Thank you

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 03:48 AM

BTW BrooklynJay, FYI, another word used here in the same sense as "crumpet", for attractive women collectively, is "totty".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 04:54 AM

MtheGM - That's a new one on me. Never heard of "totty" before - thanks for enlightening me. I am thoroughly convinced that the English language (on both sides of the Atlantic) is evolving faster than I can keep pace with it.

Jay

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 05:21 AM

I always visualise 'totty' as a bunch of girls tottering along on very high stilettos.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 05:26 AM

From Wiktionary {but doesn't give a derivation, though I love your suggestion Topsie}
,,,,,,
Pronunciation
IPA: /tɒti/
Rhymes: Rhymes:English:-ɒti
[edit]Noun
totty (uncountable)
(UK, slang, English) sexually attractive women considered collectively; usually connoting a connection with the upper class.
(slang, English) an individual sexually attractive woman  [quotations ▼]
[edit]Usage notes
Although denoting a countable subject, the noun is a mass noun. A single person is described as "some totty" or "a bit of totty". But a group of people can also be referred to as "some totty" or "the totty".
[edit]Related terms
top totty
hotty
[edit]Synonyms
talent

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 02:24 PM

A bunch of girls tottering along on very high heels usually constitutes a hen party - get in their way at your own risk!

Ross

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 03:03 PM

Crumpit (slang, with reference to a woman) got me to looking and I found it in The Oxford English Dictionary, 1987 Supplement (for those with older editions). Several variants.
"1900, G. Swift, Somerley, 40, You're Ophelia, Scrubby; but don't you go winking at the johnnies in the stalls, you giddy little crumpet !"
c. Women regarded collectively as a means of sexual gratification, so 'a bit of crumpet'.
"1936, J. Curtis Gilt Kid. 75, Fancy staying up as late as this and not having no crumpet."
1961, "luscious foreign crumpet."

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 04:36 PM

The only 'transAtlantic' distinction that really bothers me is the difference in electrical systems, and it affects everyone. A little kit with a converter and plug cheaters is necessary in order to use items like hair dryers, etc. Mostly it's the wife who complains.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 05:13 PM

The difference in electrical systems is not just transatlantic. Try sticking a UK plug into a European socket (without a convertor).

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 05:27 PM

A segue here (what's new?)because there is likely no thread in which this will be the topic:

This year I have seen more girls/young women tottering along on stiletto heels than I have ever seen. Is it a new fad and is it everywhere?

When I was a girl we crammed our feet into narrow-toed 'high heels', ruining many a foot in the process, but those high heels were nothing, compared with these. The heels I see today force the bend between the toes and the foot to be the only accessible walk-on surface.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 05:32 PM

That's why I said plug cheaters, Dave. I have a son who goes to the Cooks every winter, and the first thing he packs is the kit with plog conversions and current converter. I have a DVD player, I believe made for the Russian market but handles all zones, and I needed a 'cheater' for it. Not really a problem because many outlets sell them.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 03:53 PM

And any hotel is likely to have a drawer full of converters that have been left behind by guests.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 06:23 PM

"And any hotel is likely to have a drawer full of converters that have been left behind by guests."

Never found any.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 10:21 PM

On the meaning of "downtown" and "uptown"

As far as I know, every American city has a downtown, but not every city has an uptown. The meaning of "uptown" varies from city to city, and in some cities, the term is not used at all.

Downtown always means what Brits would call the city center, the area with the highest concentration of commercial buildings, usually also the location of the tallest buildings and the most expensive land and rental space, per square foot. Historically, it is usually the approximate place where the first buildings were built, and as the city grew, it spread outwards from there. In cities that have numbered streets (1st Street, 2nd Street, etc.) the numbering begins downtown, usually next to a river or shore, and the numbers get larger the further you are from downtown. So do house numbers.

In New York, as I understand (I am not a New Yorker, so someone correct me if I'm wrong), "uptown" and "downtown" are not so much places as directions. To go downtown means to go toward the southern tip of Manhattan; to go uptown means to go the opposite direction, that is, northward. This works, and is meaningful to New Yorkers, because Manhattan is a long narrow island running roughly north-south. Development began at the southern tip and spread northwards.

Most cities aren't configured this way. Most cities began at a central location and expanded in 4 directions (sometimes only 3 directions if the city is bounded on one side by a large body of water). Either way, "downtown" has a clear meaning, while "uptown" is not likely to be used because it would be too vague. Instead, we tend to use clearer terms like "the North Side," "the East Side," etc. The exact terminology varies from city to city and depends on local history and geography.

Neither St. Louis, where I grew up, nor St. Paul, where I live now, has an "uptown." In Minneapolis, however, Uptown is the name of a secondary commercial district about 3 miles south of downtown. I don't know how it got that name. It has a high concentration of movie theaters, restaurants and bars, and trendy shops.

Subject: RE: BS: More on transAtlantic distinctions
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 04:30 AM

In Britain many settlements were founded on hills, so in most British cities, downtown would be uphill from the rest of the town (thus restoring 'down' to its original Anglo-Saxon meaning).