BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:35 PM

I did some research into RV/camper costs, being interested ourselves. I looked mainly at a 2-person camper-van (van conversion) with insufficient space to bring along our 3 sixty-plus pound dogs. I assumed a 21-day rental (19-day trip) even though it's really too short for a great trip, IMO it's the bare minimum time to see a few sights between hither and thither. I've generalized and rounded some numbers to come up with a ballpark idea. It could cost more or less depending on details, specials, season or if over a long weekend. I'm almost afraid to add up the amounts down the left shown in boldface (amounts in regular font that happen to be at the left margin are just part of the description, not an amount to add on) but that'll give a good guide to the price of 3-weeks Vancouver to Toronto through Canada:

Basic Rental
$1,100 for 7 days camper rental, which would cover a Vancouver-Toronto by driving 8+ hours every day for 6 days, this allowing a barely any time at each end to pick up, pack up, empty, gas-up and return the thing. But that won't allow time to figure out how you want to pack your stuff into it, and then do so--that's usually at least another day.
$2,200 rental for another 2 weeks worth of sight-seeing and stopping just because it's nice.

Insurance Upgrade
$672 ($32 per day) insurance upgrade takes the collision deductible from $5,000 to nil and the comprehensive deductible from $500 to $300. Or $525 ($25 per day) drops the collision deductible to $500 from $5,000.

Mileage Charge
$1,260 in mileage for the basic A-to-B trip; using 4,407 km from MapQuest's shortest drive time for an all-Canadian route. This cost is based on pre-purchased blocks of 500 km @ $140 each ($.28/km). The same km paid at the end would be $180, or $.36/km.
$280 in mileage assuming another 1,000 km worth of driving off the basic A-to-B route for sightseeing, groceries, getting to & from campgrounds and whatnot.

One-way Fee
$520 at one website for the "one-way fee", generally non-refundable upon cancellation (to drop off the camper at a different city than where rented). Some web sites aren't very clear about this charge, but you can be certain there will be one. At one site the fee was the same no matter the model of camper. I don't know yet what's industry standard.

Fuel
I come up with approximately
$1,500 like this: I'll be optimistic and hope that being featherfooted and choosing the smallest available unit, one might get close to 15 mpg IMP (25% bigger than US, so 12 mpg US). So I've used 5 km per litre (14.12 mpg IMP or 11.76 mpg US) to figure the A-to-B driving and 3.6 km/l (10.17 mpg IMP or 8.47 mpg US) for sight-seeing, groceries and whatever side trips. But y'know after all that, I'd probably add 20% to my budget because I just don't believe the mileage will be quite that good.

Small Stuff You'll Need or Want
$200-300 worth of flat-rate fees for stuff like toaster, coffemaker, dishes, pots, lawn chairs, folding table for outdoors, etc. While we would use our own, those coming from overseas would be stuck renting whatever you can't do without, or compare to the cost of getting what you can from Goodwill, or borrow from local friends and ship it back to them, or to use paper dishes where there is municipal composting...devil in the details here.

I didn't notice listings to rent a cooler, which you'd want to do because the fridge in a van conversion is usually very small. Depends how much cooking you plan to do. Keep in mind that counter space = zero in this kind of camper. The counter is used up by the wee sink and 2 burner stove so you have to use the table and get a sore back from leaning at a bad angle.
$50 or less to buy one. Plan to buy ice every 1.5-2 days in spring and fall, at least daily in the summer.

Biting-bug-barrier
I also didn't see any listing for dining tent rental at the RV sites I visited, but unless you're going in fall-winter or NEVER sitting outdoors, you need one. Period. Canada is blackfly and/or mosquito country May-September:
$150-200 to buy an easy-up screened tent. There are cheaper ones. JennieG, you don't need this at the time of year you're expecting to travel.

Campground Fees
$665 to $855 assuming $35-45 per night. Some private ones fall in this price range, some will be more. Provincial and National Parks systems are great, may as well use them. Facilities generally aren't rustic as when I was a kid, although some locations may be--full details online. You may be fine, being off season, but may have to hunt for spots at the most popular campgrounds, which can fill up almost a year in advance. Many hold back a percentage for drive-ins, so arrive very early if you are counting on that.

Plus provincial sales tax & GST, of course, except not GST on insurance if I'm not mistaken.

Extra, of course, are your food & drink, souvenirs, propane refills, firewood, tickets to sights and events etc.

Another expense for us in particular
$2,470 ($130/day x 19 days, this one includes tax) to board our 3 full-sized dogs at the open-concept kennel. They always come home happy and tired with no new fears or issues. They are used to a 1-2 hour off-leash walk most days in addition to on-leash time so we deeply hesitate to put them in a $25 per day per dog cage-kennel that gives them 30 mins exercise in a narrow, concrete run full of yuck. Those kennels often come with staff who hold a matching attitude and skill level, so it's not worth the risk of having to un-do behavioural damage. In reality, we'd likely opt for a larger camper (increase by 30-50% the rental cost; double the fuel cost) and move the $130/day boarding budget to the rental line--and take the "whole family."

Anyway that's my first look at the whole idea. Now I know that RV touring is a lifestyle choice not an economy option. And we'll be saving for a while, or else using car+motel for such a trip. Fortunately the dogs are glad to sleep in their crates.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:07 PM

Lot of work by crowhugger; makes me cringe at the thought.

The best way is by car, staying at motels, and taking your time. Not exactly cheap either. We did a big circle once- Calgary to New Mexico to Louisiana to Georgia to Virginia and New York, Quebec and Toronto, then across Ontario and Manitoba to the prairies and home. Lots of memories, saw lots of relatives, but once was enough. One week breaks with relatives in New Mexico and Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:57 PM

Oops, mistake on the dog-boarding: the cheapie option would be $75/day for 3 dogs.

Yep, fair bit work, most of the afternoon. Not hard, just nit picky back and forth among various screens. Much of the info is easily available on the net.

We vaguely tossed around the idea of renting an RV for a week to go see family, if it would prove cheaper than boarding the dogs (3 biggish dogs in a smallish house with cats...way more fun to watch than TV, but not good visit etiquette). In that instance we would rent upon arrival and park it in a laneway, meaning negligible mileage and fuel costs. Once the notion of RV rental entered our minds, since hubby hasn't been west of Windsor, ON, ever and I haven't been west of Wisconsin for years, of course we said that one of these days we should check what it would cost to cross Canada (east, west and north in separate trips). Today became that day.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Beer
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:31 AM

Excellent work Crowhugger. Should help Jennie G.
ad.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:14 PM

weather in canadian rockies in october

http://www.rockies.com/canadianrockies/travel-information/weather-in-the-canadian-rockies.html

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:26 PM

Crowhugger... yer a trooper! Well done! Yer research is to be commended!

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: JennieG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:48 PM

Wowsers, Crowhugger - you have been busy! Commendations indeed! While we are used to camping/touring in our small caravan (travel trailer) and hired a motorhome in New Zealand in 2000, I think we will just hire a car and stay in motels or B & Bs. The trip across will be one-way, we will probably fly home again because it's quicker, so having a car could also be handy when we get to TO. We have used the TTC to get around on our two previous visits and found it suits us, but a car could be handy if we want to go for a Nice Sunday Drive on any day of the week. We have stayed in a beaut place in the Upper Beaches (in Victoria Park Ave just north of Kingston Road, for those who know TO) and hopefully will stay there again as it's not too far from Canaussian son and another friend. That way we can spend lots of time with them but also have time to ourselves; if you have ever stayed with rels you know what I mean.

And the place where we stayed is just a short distance from Acoustic Harvest folk club - how cool is that!

Thank you all very much for your answers and feedback, it has been very helpful and we really appreciate it.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: scouse
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:10 AM

Thanks Crowhugger that was some work there...I'll make sure I win the Lotto before trying such a journey,mind in saying that, If I win the Lotto..... I'll buy me own Camper!!!!

As Aye,

Phil.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Willie-O
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:34 AM

There is a tendency to drive all night across the prairies, and it's not such a bad idea. Get a bunch of Ian Tyson CD's for this part of the drive, regardless of what time of day. Last time I did it I spent the night driving in the August meteor shower listening to "18 Inches of Rain" twice over...a truly western experience.

Consider the southern route in southeastern BC, through the Kootenays and NElson, then across to Alberta via the Crows Nest Pass (which is less steep than the main Trans-Canada route farther north--less prone to early snow, although the same can't be said for the Kootenay Pass between Nelson and Creston. You can take the Kootenay Lake ferry route and avoid the pass if you'd rather.) If you go this way, at the ALberta-BC border you will see lots of info about the Frank Slide which buried the town of the same name a century ago. If you keep your eyes open, you will find the turnoff to the Hillcrest Mine Cemetery, a few kms east of the Frank Slide displays--this is where the victims of the Hillcrest Mine disaster, commemorated in James Keelaghan's song, are buried. Well worth a thoughtful hour or two side trip (just a few minutes drive from the highway) and not all touristed up.

The mountains, needless to say, are best driven in daylight :)
W-O

One bonus of October is motels are post-peak season cheaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Willie-O
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:59 AM

Northern Ontario is a fantastic drive, particularly the Superior shore. One of my favourite places on it is the Terry Fox Memorial, commemorating the young Canadian who attempted to run across Canada circa 1980 with one artificial leg, to raise funds for cancer research.
The memorial, located where Terry ended his attempt due to recurrance of the cancer that killed him a year later, is on an incredibly beautiful overlook of Superior, about an hour southeast of THunder Bay. And, very sensibly, it has the best washrooms on the entire Trans-Canada Highway. Don't miss it!

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: gnu
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:46 PM

But ya still gotta go thru The Big Smoke if ya take the 401 all the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:53 PM

There is a route I recall through the northern suburbs that is very interesting. There are Native American stores and such on it. Is it highway 7?

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:16 PM

My first time on the northern route of the Trans-Canada Hwy. (TCH) I found the "rocks and trees and rocks and trees" through northern Ontario while yes, repetetive, yet held a particular fascination. Born and raised around Ottawa then living variously within southern Ontario all my adult life, I was amazed by how short the trees are at the northernmost parts of the TCH! For miles and miles I felt powerful new understanding of middle-school geography lessons. The height of the bush coming up to meet the road became ever lower and lower going north from North Bay through New Liskeard, Iroquois Falls, towards Hearst. Where the highway runs east-west again the trees are shortest, like nothing I'd seen. This stretch of highway is also where roadside dwellings appeared to rest on sodded flaps of road allowance tentatively extended into the bush. The highway itself had become a long, shallow chisel mark through dwarf forest. Eventually, somewhere after Geraldton, the highway arched southward again, and the slim channel was chiseled deeper and deeper until the bush resumed almost its full as we neared Lake Superior. As you may gather, I'll never forget it.

Off-shooting that highway were (surely still are) countless fire access roads, mostly dirt roads or tracks some of which would challenge an ATV. We turned off onto a few of fire roads just to check them out, see where they went. They weren't marked on the map. Sometimes we found a dead end, but I still loved seeing the swampy forest up close--the birds were very tame, and the trees were so short I felt I would scrape my knuckles on the sky if I waved my arms too high.

Twice while exploring such roads we found old log cabins, one in considerable disrepair. The other was in pretty good shape but for re-chinking. It had a nearby henhouse, an outhouse, and situated in the centre of this cluster, an outdoor kitchen and laundry. After being initially startled and delighted by our discovery, I was moved by the presence of raw history. We spent a couple of hours just being there, soaking up the scene, trying to imagine life in that circumstance, with that outdoor hub at its centre. Best we could guess from tobbacco and other tins within the cabin, provisions were last brought in around the mid 1940s. IIRC we were there in 1977.

All that is to say, you never know when something will be more than it first seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:26 PM

JtS, yes could well be that's the road you mean, although I don't recall any particular native-run or -wares stores, maybe I've forgotten or they've closed. Was that some time ago? Nowadays that road is just a necessary evil if going to something in the area, often just as congested as the 401 but with traffic lights to stall and complicate things. Those who can afford it use the 407 with its extremely high tolls. Maybe what you recall was further out of town? East of Peterborough here and there along Hwy 7 are native-goods souvenir shops. Also further north of TO than Hwy 7 esp. on Hwy 11.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: gnu
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:40 PM

Just thought...

How do you get to Antigonish? Take the T-Can and turn at the first set of lights.

Canuck joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:45 PM

It was bout 20 years now, Yeah, starting about 10 or 20 miles east of TO on 7. 7 is a lot more scenic and interesting than 401, I think it takes you most of the way to Ottawa.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:48 PM

You want to see short scrubby weather beaten trees go to Nefoundland and take the TCH from Whitbourne to St. John's

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:51 PM

"
There is a route I recall through the northern suburbs that is very interesting. There are Native American stores and such on it. Is it highway 7?"

Yes Jack it is Highway 7... and from the sublime to the sort of ridiculous, Canada's Wonderland is on that same highway.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:59 PM

JtS, Nfld & Labrador are on my travel to do list, as is the true north, especially far enough north that they measure tree height in centimetres. When my father died last year, disparate parts of my family got back in touch so I now have a relative to visit on Baffin Island!

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:30 PM

Nfld and Labrador are two separate trips unless you fly or take a boat from one to the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:22 PM

Um, Jack, I can't find a way to say this that won't sound like either a wisecrack or a slight, so fair warning: Every journey to more than one place requires two trips unless you somehow get from one t'other(s).
;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:25 PM

I'm saying that if you drive to the either, you have to leave your car to get to the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:35 AM

If it IS October , why not fly to DC and catch The Getaway Weeekend and meet a LOT of the regulars in here , then head back West ?
Just wish I could get back over A S A P

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: JennieG
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 05:57 PM

What a lovely idea, Terry.....only problem.....I am not taking any more flights than I have to. Bad enough that it's such a long flight from Oz to anywhere else in the world; I will fly to Canada, and fly home, and that's the extent of it. I'm not phobic about flying but I do like to have my feets firmly planted on the ground beneath me.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: JennieG
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 06:49 AM

Well - it's decided. Plans are in the hands of travel agent, just getting fine-tuned, as we speak. We will fly to Toronto via Vancouver in October (just after Thanksgiving) and spend some time there with son and his girlfriend, we have also been invited to their friends' wedding which is nice. Then hire a car and tour around some of Ontario and perhaps stray into Quebec for a wee while, including spending some time in North Bay with our friends who will have moved there by then. Then drive back to TO and fly to Victoria, BC, for a week before flying that long trip home. We'll be away for 5-6 weeks.

Unfortunately the timing means we will miss Acoustic Harvest, but hopefully we can catch some music somewhere.

Doubly unfortunately, we won't be going to or through Blind River - so won't get to meet Shane. I am devastated.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: Beer
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 08:51 AM

No Maritime Provinces? Is your trip still planned for October?
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 02:15 PM

Well, at least you aren't spending time in The West between ONT and BC. If you want to see it, I can draw you a pic. Here ya go...

____________________________________________________________________

Subject: RE: BS: Crossing Canada: car or train?
From: JennieG
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 07:03 AM

Still planned for October, because we will be attending a wedding - we can't really ask the happy couple to change dates just for us. Besides, fall colours are so beautiful - ours here are pale shadows by comparison.

Gee, thanks, gnu.....no hills anywhere? Not even a tiny bump?

Cheers (eh)
JennieG