John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:37 PM

It always amuses me when Les of C accuses others of not sticking to the point, and then does exactly the same thing himself. Yes, Les we all know how funny (those of us with a sense of humour that is) Les Barker is, but the point was about the political views of 11 members of a band, and here's me, foolishly thinking we were getting somewhere, Oh well, I can live in hope.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 02:26 AM

Good point Ms/Mr BTNG,

I was refering to the phrase "hearding cats" - a task of considerable difficulty - and how that might relate to getting 11 musicians to agree a set list and arrangements for songs & tunes. In that frame of mind I recalled the excellent poem by Les.

As for the original point - "What will Bellowhead do"? I dunno. What did they say they would do when they set out years ago? Play excitng songs and tunes mostly traditional? What will John Tams do next? Maybe he'll record an album of jolly dance tunes. If he did I feel sure it would be excellent.

heers
L in C# off to SFF

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 04:02 AM

What will John Tams do next? Maybe he'll record an album of jolly dance tunes. If he did I feel sure it would be excellent.

Well although I've not seen him do it for years he is/was an excellent English-style melodeon player, so stranger things have happened ...

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: cooperman
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 05:46 AM

Sorry, clicked on this in error. Better think of something meaningful to say now!! Nah! Although I think if I picked up a melodeon it would have to go out the window (as should politics in music).I'm all for songs that get people thinking about others though and the state of the world we live in.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 07:26 AM

"Bellowhead's manager answered this when he pointed out that 11 people aren't necessarily going to share the same political opinions. How can they "spread the message" if they don't agree what the message is or how it should be spread?"- Howard

I do tend to assume that people into the sorts of music I like - folk, free improv, punk, lo-fi indie, avant garde noise, contemporary classical - have similar politics to me. That's becuase they generally DO.

[mudelf snip - 4 paragraphs - so sorry, but please keep the politics out of the music threads!]

It's always gratifying to have a prejudice confirmed, and I'd say that when I find myself admiring someone's music and lyrics, I generally find they are incisive about politics too (even if they might not subscribe to any particular party line).

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 01:00 PM

Musicians make music.

Politicians make politics.

Musicians are good.

Politicians are bad. (Ye, ALL of them :-) )

Some musicicians try to be politicians.

Some politicians try to be musicians.

None of them are very good each others jobs...

:D tG

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 01:15 PM

"[mudelf snip - 4 paragraphs - so sorry, but please keep the politics out of the music threads!]"

This isn't a music thread.

---

Matt, if you want a better explanation, contact me by e-mail. Thanks.
-Joe Offer, [e-mail]-

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,STM.
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 04:11 PM

Lizzie is making some outrageous remarks which I can't even bebothered to address. However, I do just want to add a few questions:

Bellowhead have 11 members (12 including the manager), do you honestly think they are going to have a complete and unified opinion on politics?

Why is their place to spread the word about politics and the world affairs? They are simply a band who take traditional material and whilst keeping true to the tradition, in terms of melodies, lyrics and heart, and rearrange it for a more modern more dancy crowd. They are about fun- since when was politics fun? And why does everything have to be serious? People have always been racists, facists, murderers and God knows what else- we just have more mediums in which to exude that kind of behaviour now.

I think some people need to remember that these people are simply musicians doing their job (who probably aren't as rich or up their own arse as you suspect). They have NO DUTY whatsoever to change the way the UK is won or how people view other situations. Not for you and not for anyone.

As individuals, I'm sure every member of Bellowhead does have strong political views and would happily discuss and promote those with others- but to expect them to do so at a gig is absurd- there would be no gig, just bickering amongst the stage no doubt!

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 05:01 PM

Er...I never said I wanted them to stand and talk politics, merely sing some songs that have a little more meaning to them, that's all. Keep your hair on.. ;0)

And maybe you're right. Maybe they should leave those kind of songs to Home Service to do, for they obviously arent' scared to voice their opinions in song...

Home Service 35
Bellowhead    1andthreequarters

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:10 AM

I really am glad that there are some songs and some people who do not want to convert me to their way of thinking. It is a joy to just enjoy music for it's own sake and while Bellowhead are not may favourite they are refreshing in their approach. Personaly I prefer Noah and the Whale, who are more pop that folk I suppose, or any of Ashley Hutchings' bands (Maybe it is the bass!) I am not a huge fan of singer/songwriters but John Tams is one of the best. He is certainly a very wise man and can engender controversy as well as anyone. Just look at this thread to see what I mean. But I am not willing to get into a competition to see who 'wins' in a matter of personal taste. I like what I like, other people like what they like. I don't particularly feel the need to score points and I cannot see why anyone who does not state what their political viewpoint is needs to be denegrated.

Just my 2 penn'urth

DtG

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 08:47 AM

I think, today of all days, when in one week the USA has been hit by Earthquakes and today lies waiting for the Hurricane, that maybe they should get out there and 'preach the Gospel' to as many folks as they can find, because we're in deep shite, folks..and the more folks who get to understand that fact, the better....


Here, Bellowhead should watch this....from the man who made the stunningly wonderful film 'HOME', available complete on Youtube, in every major language in the world, because Yann cares so deeply about this amazing planet, and, having photographed it for years he knows what deep trouble we are already in.....

Yann Arthus Bertrand at TED talking about the impact we're having on our planet


On the other hand, they could serenade us with songs about Sailors & Prozzies as we all go down together, kind of like the Folk Equivalent of The Dance Band on the Titanic, to use Harry Chapin's title...

"We do not want to believe what we know. " Yann Arthus Betrand.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 08:55 AM

And..just imagine, IF Bellowhead had given out the phone number of the Embassy of Brazil in London, explaining to their audience about Belo Monte and the further SIXTY dams that Brazil is planning in the Rainforest...and that Monday 22nd August, just gone, was the day of International Protest around the planet, then they could have probably increased the amount of folks who did phone, email and protest in person, by a significant amount...

We are beyond Traditional now.

IF you are an artist/band who has the good fortune to be able to reach many people, then truly, you should start to reach out and make your voices heard, joining everyone together as fast as possible..because we're in it up to our necks.

We CAN still get out, limit the damage, learn to live around it, repair it...but if we don't then the generations to come of Bellowhead's audience, and the young audiences of many other bands/artists are going to battling to stay alive....

Simples...
Depressing, yes, but that's how it is folks...

And in turning away, ignoring, refusing to stand together, you are contributing to The Silence of the Good which has helped to bring us to this state in the first place.

We will ALL be affected!

And I write this just an hour after hearing from a dear friend in New Jersey who told me that there is now no way in or out of the City unless you have a car. ALL buses, trains, coaches, planes have been stopped, so many shops shut, and already emptied of stock.....whilst they sit and wait...wait...wait...........

John Tams message, even if said in mischief, is A Call To Arms as well...

I would urge ALL those who can, to take up that Call as soon as they possibly can.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 09:01 AM

"We HAVE to BELIEVE what we know. Let me tell you something.It is too late to be pessimistic. Really too late.s We are all part of the Solutions. To finish I would like to welcome the 4700 babies born since the beginning of this talk. Merci beaucoup. I love you." Yann Arthus Bertrand


And now back to the Childe Ballads....

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 10:16 AM

The dance band on the Titanic

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:02 PM

As for Jon Boden's dad being a stockbroker:

a) he isn't.

b) what on earth does that have to do with the price of fish?

Looks like poor journalism to me. Trying to justify a free ticket perhaps?

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,STM
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:59 PM

Lizzie you just stated:

"Er...I never said I wanted them to stand and talk politics, merely sing some songs that have a little more meaning to them, that's all. Keep your hair on.. ;0) "

And about two posts afterwards said:

"And..just imagine, IF Bellowhead had given out the phone number of the Embassy of Brazil in London, explaining to their audience about Belo Monte and the further SIXTY dams that Brazil is planning in the Rainforest"

...they're supposed to sing this information are they?

Also, instead of expecting and dictating what other people should be doing to get the message out, why don't you start your own band/pick your own songs/write your own lyrics/write novels/ etc. and spread the message?

Why do you think that anyone cares about this stuff?

Don't get me wrong, I do care about the state of our planet and the terrible things that happen, but I go to gigs to relax and chill out and forget, just for an hour, about all the shitty things that are happening- the last thing I'd want is the bloody band preaching to me! I'd go to church id I wanted that.

The truth is, people KNOW about these things already. We are an educated society. We have the internet, we have the TV, the radio- we hear about all of these things every day. People will decided for themselves whether they are going to help make a change or not.

Also, your point-scoring is getting really old and pathetic. We get it, you like Home Service and you dislike Bellowhead- that's fine, but the reminders are getting irritating.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:24 PM

:0)

No, you'd be AMAZED how many folks haven't got a CLUE what's happening around the planet, actually....Trust me, I know, I talk to folks and I see the blank expressions when you mention 'fracking'....although it's starting to get slightly more known about over here now, but only marginally...

Belo Monte isn't politics, it's bloody SURVIVAL!

Still, I'll leave you to go to your festivals and tap your feet...

At this very moment, as I write this, I'm also watching/listening to Show of Hands singing 'Country Life' GREAT song about the shambles that is now our country way of life..."The village is dead and they don't care....." (taken from Steve Knightley's 'Country Life'.....they started their set with 'Cutthroats, Crooks and Conmen' too...revived for David Cameron et al....having been written in The Thatcher Years...

You too can watch them live, on the thread I started on here, but I guess they're a bit too political for you....


Oh....and DO please still ring The Embassy of Brazil, because they're getting very pissed off with folks ringing them!   Yay!!!


By the way, that 'Titanic' video is sick.....horrible idea...

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:26 PM

"No trains! No shops! No pubs! No jobs! What went wrong? Country Life!"   

Yeah!!!

Home Service 45
Show of Hands 45
Bellowhead    1/2

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,STM
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:51 PM

Bellowhead are about interpreting traditional folk songs.

The songs you are referring to are not folk songs.

Bellowhead have gained publicity and success through their modern and interesting way of promoting folk song. That is their role in society, if they must have one, I suppose (obviously I can't speak for the band, but my view on the matter).

Why would they change their entire stance? There are already musicians out there dedicating their music and writing lyrics for political purposes, such as the ones you have mentioned. Why should Bellowhead jump on their wagon? That is not what they do; their purpose and their audiences are different.

Personally, I think there are better ways of getting political statements across. I don't care for the music of Home Service and I think Show of Hands are incredibly cheesy. However, these are just my personal opinions and I appreciate their role within the folk scene and the messages they are trying to put across. They just don't reach me, because I don't think their music is very good. I think they could be using their talent to produce more catchy songs, to reawaken the young folk scene and bring folk music to people who have never heard it before. BUT IT IS NOT MY PLACE TO SAY IT. So why you think it's yours to dictate other peoples musical adventures, is completely beyond me. And besides, there are already people doing that.

The thing you need to remember Lizzie, is that people, sometimes the people you refer to, do actually read these boards. You make yourself look silly and disrespectful by thinking you have these extortionate rights to tell people what and what not to do.

There's a reason you've been banned from so many boards in the past and I wouldn't like this to be another one, so maybe it's time you started writing reasonable and rational thoughts, rather than word vomiting your emotional state all over the internet.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:59 PM

You're free to say whatever you want, matey, or mateyessy..Obviously you're one of the usual suspects, because you've not been able to hold back spewing forth with the 'Oh you were banned from here and there' chant...It never ceases to amaze me!

Good, if folks read what I say, those of whom I speak too.

I am, believe it or not entirely aware of that fact, that is why I have filled this thread up with details of how songs can make a huge difference in this world and how, at present, this world NEEDS strong songs, strong singers, strong writers, as never before.

It is perfectly within my right to say that, so please, do not try to shut me up. As you know many have tried that before and it makes them seethe that Mudcat allows me to still have my freedom of speech.

I do not use that freedom to abuse you, so please, refrain from your personally insulting posts.

And now, if you'll excuse me I'm off back to Facebook to introduce folks to more Show of Hands songs, although they're just finishing...I have 'friends' watching Shrewsbury live from the USA at present...Whoooppeee!

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 06:02 PM

Lizzie, surely logically if you think art ought to be utterly subservient to spreading news and progagandising then aren't both Show of Hands and John Tams failing miserably - they're wasting all this time making music that could be better served giving out leaflets, organising e-petitions and smashing up Westminster!

If you think unambiguous proselytising takes precendence over art-content, then we should remember that hundreds of thousands of Adele fans have never heard of Show of Hands (or John Tams, or indeed Bellowhead) and probably never will, and wouldn't like them even if they did.

That's not a criticism of any of those acts' music - it's just pointing out that contemporary folk music is really the worst vehicle for mass communication and propaganda. Really, the football style scores you keep putting up (art isn't like sport, because it doesn't have rules) ought to be zeroes all round.

I must say, too, I don't think the songs you've posted too are particular specific anyway. "I'm Alright Jack" is loose and baggy enough in its "very bad things" imagery for Michael Gove to essentially agree with. Now, if you'd linked to a Show of Hands song called "David Cameron Drinks the Blood of the Poor" then I might agree with you. Or a John Tams song called "I Support The Looters (Cos I Want A World Without Money)" then you might have a point.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 06:18 PM

SoH played 'Arrogance Ignorance and Greed' which went down very well...

Good Lordy, WHO would give out leaflets to spread a message? The first thing most folks do with those is...throw them away. As to e-petitions, well they don't reach in the same way, do they...and besides, they simply get signed, then sent on their way.

Now for instance, moving back to Belo Monte again...President Dilma Rousseff completely ignored over 600,000 signatures on various petitions, back in April, so they don't work...although I'd assume there are now MILLIONS who've signed the new petitions doing the rounds...

And'smashing up Westminster!'...well hardly, you can't even get within a mile of The Houses of Parliament these days without being arrested...

No, you need to do your Market Research a little better, Matt.

Now songs, you see, political songs that is, helped to bring about the end of the Vietnam War, for they galvanised millions into taking to the streets to protest...

You just can't beat the power of songs. And that,of course, is why they killed off The Last DJ, turning them all into Company Men...apart from those lovely fellas at Radio Caroline, who play whatever they want, of course. They're lovely over there...AND, they follow the English folk scene too!   :0)

Your go, Matt. ;0)

Show of Hands and Home Service 53 each
Radio Caroline                42
Bellowhead                      7

(I've decided to be a little kinder to the Bellowing Ones, as they are good musicians) :0)

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 08:38 PM

If you don't like the ones I suggested, then pick a method of political activity that you think DOES work then - it's all the same to me. You've a real talent for focusing on the particulars in order to conveniently ignore an overall point, Lizzie.

The point, in this instance, being this: if the aim is to get an unambiguous and easily-understandable political message to the biggest number of people, then you're shooting yourself in the foot trying to do it with folk music. Folk music is, it pains me to say, in terms of popular cultural reach, a drop in the ocean today.

I don't doubt that Show of Hands song has been enjoyed and celebrated by many and passed around on youTube, but I don't think it's success ought to be measured by "how many people it converts to communitarianism" (or whatever; insert alternative appropriate ideology here). That frankly won't be very many people (and that has nothing to do with Show of Hands or their songwriting). As with everything else, it's success is ultimately measured in whether it's good art or not.

I know plenty of people who don't like "political songs" because they find them either clunky, cheesy or stupid. You can sum this attitude up as "some information works better as a newspaper article than a poem". I generally share this opinion, but on the other hand I do like politiics in music when it takes this kind of bluntness to the same sort pithy extremes as a protest-march placard.

I kind of veer between the two extremes: I want either personal politics in lived daily life (which I get from pretty much every folksong EVER, but rarely from the stock phrases of pop); or I want blunt truths stated brutally.

A good example would be Public Enemy's "911 is a Joke", or James Brown's "Say It Loud, I'm Black and I'm Proud". In fact, black 60s soul pretty much wrote the manual on how to write good political pop. If you're going to sloganeer, then sloganeer, like a good placade. Don't pussyfoot around with all these "Naughty Liars and their Lying Lies" type song titles.

Over the last week I've kept thinking of the song "I Wish There Were No Prisons". Now there's a song title with impact.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 04:44 AM

"If you don't like the ones I suggested, then pick a method of political activity that you think DOES work then - it's all the same to me."

Er....I already did...and I explained why too. Music.   


"You've a real talent for focusing on the particulars in order to conveniently ignore an overall point, Lizzie."

I attended to your point quite distinctly, matt. Not my fault if you don't do the market research or if you don't like what I said above about the power which music has, above all else, to connect. :0)

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 05:11 AM

I'd be very interested to hear of a folk song which, sung in this country in my lifetime (say, over the past 50 or 60 years), has actually changed, or acted as a catalyst for change of, anything in the political spectrum.

It can be a song which, when listened to by politicans, had the effect of changing their political viewpoint and their subsequent actions; or it can be a song which, by being taken up by a substantial portion of the electorate (the voters), has influenced the politicians to change policies.

I'll go even further - I'd be interested to hear of any folk singer or even contemporary singer-songwriter whose oeuvre has overtly achieved such an effect. Billy Bragg? Has he really achieved any real political swerve by his songs - or has he preached to the converted?

Examples please - with details of cause and effect.

Peoples' actions at the ballot box - or fear of their actions - are really what galvanise politicians into action. Yet, time and time again, we get more or less of the same set in power, regardless of their colour on the political spectrum. That being the real state of affairs, I don't believe for one minute that politics in folk music - or much of any music - has any more effect on it than a gnat on an elephant's hide. Which is why I prefer my music free of any overt - and probably simplistic - political messages.

I should add that, at a local level in my own community, I get involved in several projects - in which music plays no part. Now - if everyone got involved in their own community and tried to make it a better place - we might see some gradual change in this country. Might.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 05:15 AM

I'm sorry you found the Titanic video sick Lizzie - I was hoping it would make the point that it's not always nice to be reminded what a state we are in!

I agree though that music can be powerful. I'm not a massive fan of Arrogance Ignorance and Greed (the song I mean) - I much prefer Steve Tilston's Pretty Penny, or for something much older, Alex Glasgow's Turning the Clock Back

Anyway, apologies for any offence caused. BTW I think you are being given some good advice to channel your energies into songwriting...

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 05:17 AM

The good thing about Adobe Audition is that you can cut out the political banter and just leave the Home Service!!!

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 07:20 AM

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Bellowhead's interpretations of A begging I will go or Cholera Camp - May have been written a long time ago but still a powerful inditement against societies view of beggers and soldiering. Still, I suppose the truth shouldn't stand in the way of a good headline :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 06:49 AM

Just listened to Home Service at the Half Moon Putney on 3 July 2011 - just burnt the music to CD which was superb.

They even recreate poor old Howard Evans's bum notes!!!

Politics.......what politics????????

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 04:09 AM

People like Lizzie who are so keen to see folk musicians expressing political views are less happy when those views don't agree with their own. Just look at the reaction to Vin Garbutt's anti-abortion songs or even Peter Bellamy's Kipling interpretations (these seem to be better accepted nowadays, but at the time Kipling was considered a racist imperialist and Bellamy was widely criticised).

I agree with Matt that many "political" songs aren't actually all that political. He mentioned "Alright Jack", but even for example Ed Pickford's "The Workers' Song", which is much sharper and to the point, is nevertheless a description of how the world works, under pretty much any political system or regime. That's not politics, it's observation - politics is what you then do about it.

However I think Matt is mistaken in his assumptions that people who like his kind of music "generally do" share his political opinions. It's certainly safe to express Left-ish views on the folk scene, and the hostile and sometimes vindictive reaction to other views probably discourages all but a few from using folk music to express those views. This leads to a cosy self-perpetuating world when only "acceptable" political views can be expressed. That doesn't mean that everyone on the folk scene shares the same views.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 04:41 AM

"However I think Matt is mistaken in his assumptions that people who like his kind of music "generally do" share his political opinions."

Absolutely right, but I played Alright Jack very loud in my car this morning because it sounds great!!!!

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 05:07 AM

"People like Lizzie who are so keen to see folk musicians expressing political views are less happy when those views don't agree with their own."

Pardon?   I'm not sure who you're lumping me in with here with your 'people like Lizzie' statement. Perhaps you'd care to elaborate?

"Just look at the reaction to Vin Garbutt's anti-abortion songs.."

I've never given any reaction to Vin's song. I also think it's quite shocking how he was treated, because of his views on abortion.

Please, do not assume my views on anything or lead others to assume on my behalf.

I have never 'condemned' anyone for their political songs. I merely write about the ones which move me to write.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 05:17 AM

And I tell you what, Vin Garbutt writes songs that get people thinking and talking! And THAT is a great thing!

Part of the reason the world is in such a mess right now is due to apathy and to the masses being deliberatlely, imo, dumbed down. Nearly all music that has a strong message in it, be it political or environmental, is no longer heard in the mainstream media.

Some of the most powerful political songwriters in the world are to be found within the Folk World, both ours and others right around the planet.

For way too long The Proles (for that is what so many people now have chosen to become) have been 'entertained' with woollwoossssss music ensuring they don't think, don't question, don't talk and don't get angry or politically active...

And whilst all that has been happening, not just in the music, but in so many other things too, those with very dodgy agendas have crept in and done what they wanted with the general population and the planet...

If you listen to the American Indian Chiefs, who KNOW what they are talking about, this planet is in dire trouble...politics aside we are in deep shite now...and unless, **unless** we start opening as many eyes as we can things will be getting FAR worse VERY fast...

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 06:30 AM

My apologies, Lizzie, you're quite right, I made assumptions there I shouldn't have done. I made the mistake of using your vociferous encouragement of musicians to express political opinions to make a general point. That was wrong of me.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 11:40 AM

Subtle, HJ, subtle, a rare thing here

L in C#

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: BTNG
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 11:44 AM

It occurred to me, the other day, that we just might be giving Bellowhead more notice than they really deserve.


...oh and HJ, sarcasm is the lowest form of "wit" but I'm sure you know that already.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 01:21 PM

I wasn't aware I was being sarcastic.

Lizzie, in her usual exuberant style, has been enthusiastically urging Bellowhead, and indeed any musicians who can command an audience, to use that position to "spread the message". I used that to make a point about which particular message might be spread, but in doing so made an assumption about her point of view which was not justified. She quite rightly pulled me up and I immediately apologised. I know that's unusual behaviour on Mudcat but that doesn't make it sarcastic.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 01:43 PM

Thank you, Howard. Apology accepted, completely. x

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 06:11 PM

ý'So what's the next lesson, Darren?'
'Geography and Social Change'.
'Who's that with then?'
'Mr Tams.'
(Pause): 'Let's bunk off.'

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:24 PM

Oh no, absolutely wrong there.

They wouldn't have to bunk off, Chris, for Mr. Tams would throw open the classroom doors, get them all sitting outside in the warm, golden sunshine, shoes off, blazers off, ties undone, relaxed and happy, whilst he picked up his guitar to weave them tales of Magical Geography and Social Change with the song of The Manchester Rambler

...and by the end of the lesson they'd know where their Right to Roam came from. They'd have learnt all about Kinder Scout and the hundreds of people who came together in Mass Trespass, fighting for that very Right to Roam, bringing about social change for hundreds of thousands of people!

He'd probably even have them all signed up to The Ramblers Association in the blink of an eye and the kids would call their own walking group The Tamblers, meeting up with Mr. Tams at weekends to go rambling together, both verbally, musically and on foot...

I said over and over, years back, that John Tams is a natural teacher and I abide by that still to this day.

Perfick Post, Chris. Thank you! ;0)

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 02:17 AM

You're welcome, Lizzie. Excellent return of serve.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 04:00 AM

:0) x

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 10:11 AM

I am pretty sure that the last time I was at the start of the trespass (Maybe about 2 months ago) the plaque says that the event occured in April 1932, before Mr McColls writing of the Manchester rambler - I could be wrong (and often am!) but I am pretty sure that the event led to the song and not the other way round. Apologies in advance if I am wrong but having started my 40+ year fascination with rambling and the countryside in the very footsteps of mass trespass I do like to make sure these things are correct. I wonder somethimes whether people get the cause and effect mixed up - Do folk singers cause or simply report political events? I suspect the latter but if they make someone think for themselves I suppose they may be helping in some way. As long as they are making them think the right and just left wing thoughts:-)

Out of interest I was on the Pennine Way just under 2 weeks ago doing the short stretch from the Snake to Bleaklow head and and back and I realised I had never purposely visited the Wain Stones - So I did! Fantastic bit of natural sculpture. I said never purposely visited because I think I may have visited by accident when lost in about 3' of snow once but the only thing I remember about the trip from Glossop to the Snake Inn was taking about an hour to thaw out in front of the log fire. And having to have a an extra few pints while we waited for a taxi to come and take us back. Discretion is the better part of valour after all...

:D tG

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 10:25 AM

Me - Being kissed by the Wain Stones (for those with facebook access)

:D

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 04:33 AM

"I am pretty sure that the last time I was at the start of the trespass (Maybe about 2 months ago) the plaque says that the event occured in April 1932, before Mr McColls writing of the Manchester rambler - I could be wrong (and often am!) but I am pretty sure that the event led to the song and not the other way round. "


Yes, John Tams states that in the video before he starts to sing.

I did not state the song came first.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 01:04 PM

Good lad John. Nice to see people that some are well informed. I supposed I should have known he would give the correct story if I could have been bothered to follow internet links. I really would rather rely on personal experience though and seeing as I was aware of the history of the Manchester Rambler anyway I don't think listening to JT perform it on YouTube, rather than live like the last time I saw him, would change my opinion of either him of the song :-)

Did anyone state the song came first btw? Or say that anyone did? I am pretty sure I didn't do either. I thought we were discussing whether Bellowhead should make a political stance and whether, if they did, it would make any difference to the socio-political climate. I think that politics in folk song is interesting but, as far as social reform is concerned, a waste of time. It will not make a ha'purth of difference and the Manchester Rambler was a good way to illustrate the fact that the song was written about the event rather than influencing anyone or anything.


But then again, what do I know...

:D tG

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 02:54 AM

I'm pleased that I can fast forward to the next music track when listening to the Home Service gig at the Half Moon on 21/07/11 - in fact better still, I'll delete all the banter from my Sansa Clip flac player!!!!!

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 03:15 AM

Then you miss out on much wisdom, Bonzo....

The Manchester Rambler, to this day, teaches and illustrates the past, particularly when it is in the hands of a natural teacher such as John Tams, who goes out of his way to inform his audience about his songs.

I think many young people, and older ones too, would have no clue about how or why The Ramblers Association was started. They simply accept that they are free to walk in so many places, giving no thought to the people who fought for the Right To Roam.

Songs which tell of the politics of the past are as important as those which speak of the politics of the present for they plant seeds in the minds of many, as do songs which get folks to consider whether they are part of the problem and to focus on the fact that we are all in this together and together we the power to change so many things.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 04:45 AM

At the risk of some thread drift and to make sure there is no confusion:

I think many young people, and older ones too, would have no clue about how or why The Ramblers Association was started.

The Mass Trespass of 1932 took place before the Ramblers Association was formed in 1935. It was organised by the Lancashire Branch of British Workers Sports Federation a communist organisation founded in London in 1928. The organiser of the action was Benny Rothman who of course subsequently went to prison. Jimmy Miller as he was at that time. was the organisation's press officer. He was 17 years of age at the time.

The Ramblers Association was the result of an number of rambling federations coming together in 1931 under the name "National Council of Ramblers Federations", but they OPPOSED the tactics of the trespassers and REFUSED TO ENDORSE the action.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM

Songs which tell of the politics of the past are as important as those which speak of the politics of the present

Such as the ones that Bellowhead sing? Or don't songs about the social conditions of the past count?