Public concerts in 'churches' ?

Subject: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM

I'm noticing an increasing trend toward holding public concerts in "churches." It is VERY DIFFICULT for me to enter a "church." I'm pondering whether to attend a local concert as I just now learned it's being held in a "church."

Am I the only person on the face of this planet to feel this way? bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 03:57 PM

Get your drift, but I would usually go (if I wanted to go to such a concert) if the PA was not the church's rig and there was a bar!

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 03:58 PM

I'm not religious in the slightest but I LOVE churches very dearly; I've played, worked, told stories and performed / watched concerts in them for years. In an increasingly secular society it's good to see them being put to good use...

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 04:05 PM

In my neck of the woods one of the best live music venues is the Sacred Trinity Church in Salford. The vicar is a big music fan and happy to let local promoters use the church as a venue. It's ideal for folk and roots gigs - the acoustics are wonderful, the building is beautiful and it's big enough to hold a reasonable crowd yet small enough to be intimate. There is even a small bar with bottles of decent ale for sale at reasonable prices! I've seen, amongst others, Charlie Parr, Alasdair Roberts and Cath and Phil Tyler playing there. It's also one of the venues for Salford's Festival of the Other City.

I'm an atheist - I only attend churches under sufferance for the odd christening, wedding or funeral. But... they are often lovely buildings and they often stand empty for large parts of the week. It seems a shame not to use them in this way. Just because the building is a church, it doesn't necessarily mean those hiring it out or performing will be using the concert as an opportunity to evangelise...

I've also recently seen gigs at Manchester Cathedral (the Unthanks) and St Clements in Chorlton (part of the local arts festival). I think it helps to remember they are just buildings, and often lovely ones at that. They don't bite ;-)

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 04:28 PM

In my experience, concerts with any religious connection which are held in churches are generally plainly identifiable as such. With one exception, the best "coffeehouse" concerts I know of in our area are held in church buildings, and unless religiousity creeps out of the walls and infects you, there is no exposure to it involved whatsoever.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 04:37 PM

I thought this topic seemed very familiar. A closely related thread can be found here.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 04:57 PM

Virtually all public spaces are disappearing fast - community halls and pubs willing to host sessions/singarounds are vanishing the fastest. So what else is there?

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: ranger1
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:00 PM

Bob, some of the best concerts I've been to have been held in churches. The acoustics can be absolutely amazing. As long as no one is attempting to indoctrinate you, I'd say it's safe.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:21 PM

Also an atheist.
Also love churches of all types and persuasions.
Some of the greatest concerts I've been to have been in large churches like Beverley Minster.

Bob,
It sure looks as if you are the only person. You didn't tell us what your problem is. Have you a phobia?

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:24 PM

And if the performance turns out to be boring, you can always read the hymnal.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:43 PM

Bob, you're probably not the only person to feel that way, but maybe you should ask yourself why you feel that way. (And I'm most assuredly NOT asking you.) I'm an atheist, but I love churches. I think they're some of humanity's greatest works, and they're usually acoustically brilliant.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 05:52 PM

Jeri ... I know VERY WELL why I feel this way. And NO, I won't bore anyone else with my reasons. If I decide to skip this concert, and I haven't decided yet, it will be the third major concert I have rejected for the same reason over the last year.

Part of my purpose in posting this thread was to put a caution out there to the world of performers. If you choose to perform a folk music concert in a "church", you will clearly lose some potential audience members.

Notice that I'm NOT trying to offend anyone ... I mean this. bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 06:03 PM

OK, Bob. You don't like churches. I don't think I've met anyone else who refused to hear an artist because s/he was playing in a church, but there re probably a few folks.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 06:08 PM

I see no difference between non-believers attending musical events in churches and non-drinkers attending musical events in bars.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 07:16 PM

It is only a building, and the group putting on the concert is usually an outside organization.

This is hardly a new trend here in the U.S.   If it wasn't for churches, I think it would have been a struggle for folk music to be heard for the past couple of decades in the U.S.   Churches have provided "listening rooms" for folk music. It beats bars - you don't have to put up with drunks who only want to watch the game on a TV screen. Because many churches either rent for a low price, or offer the room for free in many cases, it has enabled groups to organize and present great music. I've rarely heard of churches interfering with the kind of music presented.

Unitarian churches have often been a major outlet.   I'm not religious at all, but I'm thankfull that churches have been there when the coffeehouse circuit and other venues dried up.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,lmg
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 07:42 PM

Is it in the main part of the church where people worship? Or in a basement meeting room? I would be comfortable with the latter but probably not the former..doesn't mean I wouldn't go..but it seems odd..like it is being misused, unless it was for church music. mg

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 08:00 PM

My honest feelings ... and AGAIN ... I'm not trying to pick a fight. If I honor a "church" by my presence, it means that I am giving that church my "approval." Performers should think about this before they book a gig in a church. I have decided to skip this upcomming gig. bob

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Fossil
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 08:23 PM

Oh, get over yourself!

A church is a *building*. When it is being used for worship, then it is more than a building. At other times, including when secular concerts are being held, it's a building.

The only thing to consider really is whether you want to support the artist performing, or not. Possibly also you might want to consider if by doing so you are helping the owners of the building, whoever they might be, defray the costs of keeping that building going so that it can be used for public events.

In my experience, churches never charge anything like an economic rent for the use of their space and are only too happy to support worthy performers by letting them have use their facilities.

I think you are being far too precious.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 08:42 PM

I understand your feelings, Bob, but would ask you to consider the following:

We've--many of us--done gigs in bars (as BWL mentioned) and not necessarily imbibed; we've done gigs in restaurants and not necessarily eaten; gigs in houses of ill repute and--well, you get the idea. I could see your point if you had been offered the gig in the office of a political party with which you disagreed, but most churches serve a congregation that goes there to pray and think good thoughts. I ask, would you feel similarly were it a Quaker meeting hall? A church is just a building, imo, although some might disagree. Cool by me. I have no advice either way, and you'll of course follow the dictates of your conscience, but I don't think the building you do your songs in will change the man you are.

Best to you either way.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 08:52 PM

He's got an issue with churches, and it's his prerogative not to go to events held in them. Other people might have problems with outdoor events, house concerts, bars, or anywhere else. I don't want to hear someone telling me I shouldn't go to a particular venue, and I won't tell Deckman he should.

Of course, if we quit telling people how they should feel or what they should believe, BS threads would all be 10 posts long or less. I sure wouldn't have as much to write.

And Bob, I wasn't challenging you. You wrote It is VERY DIFFICULT for me to enter a "church." and it seemed to be something you wanted to overcome. I could have been wrong.

My big bugaboo is crowded, noisy places. I can overcome my extreme dislike of places like that, or I can at least fight it, if I have enough motivation, such as a special event. I have to recognize that this is MY thing. If other people disliked the noisy crowds as much as I, there wouldn't be a noisy crowd. Whether I decide to go depends on whether the positives are strong than the negatives.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 09:17 PM

Meaning no disrespect here, but I find this response to be troubling and focused on the wrong thing. A church building is not religion. It is a structure where religious people practice their religion. It is simply a structure. There is a church in Grand Rapids, Michigan (Fountain Street Baptist) that used to host rock concerts in the main part of the church. I saw Iron Butterfly, Steppenwolf, Brownsville Station and many others there. Ibcertainly wasn't endorsing any theology by attending those concerts. What really troubles me though is that people with this point of view are willing go sacrifice supporting the artist over the building s/he is in. I wod understand if there were attempts to push religious view on the attendees, but withholding support because the space they rented is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

BTW, do you also feel uncomfortable and avoid cities like Los Angeles, St. Louis, San Francisco or any others with religious names?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM

I have sent a personal note to the performer expresseing my unhappiness that he chose to perform in this church. It's the second year in a row for him and this local church.

That's all I'm going to say about it. bob

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 09:43 PM

Not sure I understand why anyone would object to attending a concert at a church - it's a concert, not a religious service. Our concert series takes place in a synagogue. We have no religious affiliation with them (or with any other religious group, for that matter), we are strictly about music and our concerts are secular, although some performers include gospel music in their programs. The synagogue has no objection to this and has encouraged us to host any type of music we choose. I don't attend any church nor am I part of any organized religion, but I wouldn't object to attending an event held in a church, synagogue, mosque, buddhist temple or whatever. The members of the synagogue were gracious enough to offer us the use of their building because they thought hosting oncerts would be a nice thing to do for the community at large. I hope nobody boycotts our performers because they performed in a synagogue...

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Ref
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 10:04 PM

I think that this is just irrational and self-defeating behavior. Churches, particularly UU churches (hardly bastions of institutional religion!), are frequently used as folk venues. You're going to miss a lot of good music for no good reason.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 10:14 PM

I am a minister - from a religion that proudly counts Humanists, Pagans, Buddhists, Christians, Jews, Atheists and others among our number. We also host a lot of concerts.

I do understand why some people feel they cannot go into a church. For some, churches of any kind are inextricably associated with very painful childhood memories - perhaps of repression, or abuse, or anti-intellectualism. That might have taken place within a church, or it might have been visited upon non-church members by the dominant local religion. Most people and communities aren't like this, but some are. And feelings associated with childhood are very powerful.

I do not agree that attending an event that uses church space constitutes supporting that church, but I do understand why some people have an almost post-traumatic response to anything associated with religion. I don't know if that's Bob's issue, and I wouldn't presume to ask, but I certainly respect his decision not to go into a church - whatever his reasons.

That said, everybody has an issue with something. I would suggest that there are far more people out there who feel they cannot enter a bar, because they are recovering alcoholics or children of alcoholics, or have their own set of traumatic memories. (Or, for that matter, their religion tells them not to.)

I hope both bars and churches will continue to host music. Each fills a niche. Churches are especially important, because there just aren't that many large rooms out there with built in seating, good acoustics and cheap rent!

And I hope churches will continue to make their space available for the arts, community events, and social justice causes. Goodness knows the people need all the help we can get.

Dan

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:55 AM

I am a minister - from a religion that proudly counts Humanists, Pagans, Buddhists, Christians, Jews, Atheists and others among our number

Wow, Dan! Even atheists? Sounds like my kind of religion...

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:56 AM

Has your religion a name, Dan?

~M~

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 03:13 AM

Seven years ago when four of us started a wintertime monthly series of concerts featuring local talent, it bothered me that we had chosen a church to hold it in. Churches, per se, are not in my usual frame of reference. One of us four, however, was a member there and we were offered the space in the Undercroft so we took it. I liked that it was not in the sanctuary itself. And then we outgrew that space and moved into the sanctuary. It bothered me in some vague, non-specific way.

Then the church burnt down and after a couple of months in a secular hall - expensive, bad lighting and worse acoustics - we moved on to the church where we have been for the last four or so years.

The acoustics are great- we don't use a sound system - the price is right ($100), it seats about 130, with the option o another 10 or 15, is centrally located, the congregation does not attend unless they are folkies, the lighting is flexible and easily manipulated...

When I think about it I still would prefer it to be in a hall- but it would have to come pretty close to what we've got before we'd think of changing.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 03:41 AM

Is Dan a quaker? If Deckman's antipathy is based on bad childhood experience one can only sympathise. Unfortunately there's a lot of vicarious resentment around at present which is artificially divisive. Architecturally there are lousy churches and brilliant ones and it's best to reserve one's bile for bad design rather than what the regulars may or may not think.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 03:55 AM

If you pay to go to a concert in a church, then unless the church is letting the space be used for below the marginal cost (NB the marginal cost) then part of the entry fee you pay is supporting the relevant religion.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 03:56 AM

We have a few in Sheffield Cathedral. There is a nice bar with hand-pulled beer!

I went to see the Demon Barbers there.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:13 AM

The concert goers' financial contribution is unlikely to cover more than heat, lighting and basic overheads. Non-religious use is increasingly the main source of income for churches. Helping to stop a historic building from falling down is hardly underwriting individual aspects of dogma. The logical conclusion to that mindset would be to bulldoze York Minster and Canterbury Cathedral and put up a perfectly good Asda in their place.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:16 AM

I should have said, "The FOLK concert goers' financial contribution.."

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:27 AM

The logical conclusion to that mindset would be to bulldoze York Minster and Canterbury Cathedral and put up a perfectly good Asda in their place... because shopping is the new religion.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:31 AM

If you choose to perform a folk music concert in a "church", you will clearly lose some potential audience members.

Well, it's a possibility but, from the response here, clearly not a major one. I haven't an ounce of religion in me but that wouldn't stop me from attending a concert in a church - or attending a ceremony in a church if my presence was considered necessary.

However, I don't attend festivals or major concerts in places like Wembley Arena, etc., because I can't stand large crowds, mass queuing, etc. So - to adapt your phrase: If you choose to perform a folk music concert in a "festival", you will clearly lose some potential audience members.

Each to his/her own. :-)

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:35 AM

I'm sorry, I'll post that again:

Maybe things are different in America where the religious-right seem to hold a remarkable sway with respect of cross-weilding fascism. Hell, I might have some difficulties myself entering that sort of church. No one's saying the history of UK Xtianity is exactly perfect, but it's left us a legacy of remarkable & historic churches from the Anglo-Saxon (admittedly few), Romanesque, Gothic, Perendicular, Neo Classical, Neo Gothic, and the Modern. We lived next door to THIS particular monstronsity for a year or so when we first moved to Lancashire, though we didn't go into it until after we'd moved on. Eccentric and beguiling from the outside, turns out it abides by some rancid URC Puritanism and has some very noxious stained glass in there celebrating Cromwell and various levels of equally rancid imperialism. But rare instances of such misplaced Fundamentalism & Cranky Cults notwithstanding, I'd say UK Xtianity (whatever the stripe) exists on the same level as Santa Clause - it's cosy folklore that seldom outreaches itself. The Theology is fascinating Mythology that echoes in the material architecture & church fixtures and fittings. Where else can you get up close to vernacular medieval woodcarvings except in a church? Where else can you get that same vivid sense of hoary history than by stepping through the doors of (say) the church of Saints Peter & Paul at Salle in deepest rural Norfolk? Well, just along the road in St. Agnes in Cawston actually, with its angels, ancient benches, pub signs, horrific green men and other grotesque delights. Though my blood chills every time I pass the Mormon Tabernacle on the M61 near Chorley (for sure I'd think twice about entering that let alone doing a gig there) I think it's our duty to assist in use, presevation and protection of these true jewels in the crown of the UK's heritage, culture & folklore. They are as much a part of the secular human landscape as Stonehenge, Avebury and the sooner we see them as such (as oppose to houses of a long departed God) the better. Oh, and great acoustics too!

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:40 AM

Can't copy from above due to odd layout. But re what you say from "I'd say UK Xtnty" to "seldom outreaches itself" ~~

Reckon so? Then just have a look at simultaneously ongoing thread re 2000 year old people still alive; on which I was moved to query in a post as to whether it was all some sort of wind-up & was assured that, no, they meant every word ~~ and these regular Catters whom we all much respect...

~M~

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:44 AM

I dislike going to events in them, though I do occasionally. Its the imagery / texts on the wall (which one can't avoid looking at all evening)mostly, for me. (and yes, I know that varies considerably with type). I'm just not interested and I find it intrusive.

Often in the UK they're also uncomfortable (frequently), and cold.

Paws

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:57 AM

Slight drift suggested by above post from Paws ~~

The elaborately decorated Huntley Church in Gloucestershire, to which my late wife & I would go when staying with her mother, is covered with texts in a sort of fancy Gothic, including the long-ſ: including "Of ſucƕ is the Kingdom of Heaven" ~ the Gothic 'h' has that sort of fancy base: it quite distinctly informs us that of fuck is the Kingdom of Heaven.

I state this simply as an example of trying-too-hard overreaching, with no offensive irreverent intentions.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Marje
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:02 AM

I can see what you mean about not wishing to endorse the religion of the church, but if the concert is nothing to do with that religion, the church becomes just a building, doesn't it? And one with great accoustics, probably.

In England at least, churches are also a big part of our heritage. I go into our village church sometimes (not for worship) and as I stand there I know that this building, or parts of it, has been there for almost a thousand years. It will have seen various forms of Christianity practised there, pre-and post-Reformation, but it will also have been a place of comfort and sanctuary in times of war, famine, and plague. It will have seen celebrations of thousands of births, marriages, deaths, and all sorts of unofficial social rituals will have taken place there too.Its bells and organ will have been familiar sounds to generations of villagers.

I enjoy this feeling of history and tradition, and don't even mind contributing to the maintainance of the building, although I don't wish to support the work of the C of E.

And as a humanist and atheist, I like the idea of using the church building for a positive and worthwhile secular purpose such as a music concert. Even if some of the money goes to keeping up the building, is that a bad thing?

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: JHW
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:07 AM

Best music I heard this year was in a church. Vivaldi four seasons with Alexander Markov and London Concertante. True there was no bar but coffee laid on and the pub over the road was advertised.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Peter C
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:09 AM

Of course holding a concert in a church in the UK means you do not need an entertainment licence!

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:16 AM

Then just have a look at simultaneously ongoing thread re 2000 year old people still alive;

Thanks for the heads up;I seldom venture below the line for fear of such things, but this sounds too good to miss...

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:16 AM

One of my Scout leaders, who I greatly admired (Ex Japanese POW) was smoking in church while a group were doing some running repairs.
When asked about this he made the point that the people/congregation are the church. The building is just a building, unless currently being used for an act of worship.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: banjoman
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:21 AM

Our Church is used regularly for concerts from various local groups and always seems to attract a full house. I have no doubt that a large proportion of those attending have little or no religious affliliations but simply enjoy what is presented.. My only complaint is that the seats are a bit uncomfortable for a disabled person and all the seating is usually at one level making it a bit difficult to see the artist(s). I agree that we should preserve the best of our traditions in building technology and decoration, but it is worth remembering that a substantial number of the population do have religious affiliations, but thats another topic for another time.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:21 AM

(emerges from below-line bullshit, spluttering)

On second thoughts, maybe not... But aren't the below-liners all US cross-weilders anyway? Certainly looks like it at times...

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:24 AM

"(whatever the stripe)"

were the very words you used, Sean. No cop·outs now, please...

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:42 AM

Unless the OP's views were informed by a stick-wielding priest/pastor/reverend (where I repeat he has my utter sympathy)I fear it's another example of the fashion for Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris style Neo-Puritanism in leather tankard guise.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 07:38 AM

I'm strictly non-religious but have no problem about attending or performing in events in churches.
The best two concerts that I have sang in this year from an acoustic point of view have both been churches. One recently at the Holy Trinity in Roehampton and the other in a de-consecrated church building - now called "The Cause" in Chippenham during the festival there.

Wearing other hats. Tina and I will be presenting a multimedia show on the life and work of the school that we help to support in The Gambia in a church near here later this month as part of our fund-raising efforts.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 08:17 AM

Arrggghhh, Vic! That blue is very bright!