Public concerts in 'churches' ?

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 08:44 AM

"where the religious-right seem to hold a remarkable sway with respect of cross-weilding fascism"

They may have some sway, but the overwhelming majority of the nation swings to a different tune.

The religious right gets air time because they are outrageous, but the country as a whole sees through the crap.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 08:50 AM

Some Catholic churches around Manchester have Social centres attached. With dance floors.
One of the best was 'Our Lady's' Stockport until they extended the bar and carpeted that sprung floor that let you dance with a lift in your step all evening without tiring.
On a slight thread-drift, calling a Barn Dance at a church is often an easy and enjoyable nights work. There is a sense of community and co-operation. Maybe a 5 minute sermonette and grace before food but I don't have to participate.

Yes a lot of bad things have been done in the name of religion but maybe that says something about peoples tendency to tribalism and selfishness (good evolutionary qualities?)

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:05 AM

"(whatever the stripe)"

Cop-out? Moi?? I merely meant that established religions - be they RC or Anglican - tend to comprise mostly civilised individuals who recognise the folkloric realities of religion (i.e. they can't all be right but they can all be wrong) and treat their entirely subjective faith accordingly and refrain from proselytizing because, deep down, that faith is gratifyingly accomodating of the fact that there are as many spiritual truths on this planet as their are individual human beings.

Indeed, I'd argue that belief in Religion precludes one from the Truly Spiritual, which is known only to unrepentant Atheists. I grant there are those other stripes whose fundamentalism moves into the realms of the Truly Noxious - but these were covered in the same post under the heading of Misplace Fundamentalism and Cranky Cults. Do such people ever occupy buildings of historic and / or architectural interest I wonder? I hope not, although I find myself increasingly irritated by the religiosity I find on display whilst visiting (say) York Minister when every half-hour or so a smug voice comes crackling over the tannoy insisting this is a House o' God and beseaching visitors to refrain a moment from their wanton sight-seeing and join them in prayer and reflection. To me this is an utter outrage, given that I'll have shelled out nigh on £9 to go in there to indulge in aforementioned wanton sight-seeing; thus do I ignore them, and keep on doing whatever it is that I'm doing.

One time in a historically significant Bristol church (Saint Mary Redcliffe) I was shushed for taking photographs by a person not-so-very deep in prayer. "Oh, shush yourself," I said, and found myself in a discussion in which I had to put forward my point that the objective humanity of the building is of far greater value than any attendent hocus-pocus, to which, of course, he was most welcome. In other words I respect him, but not his beliefs, in which he carries around the psychotic delusion that the vast majority of human beings will end up in hell. It was a good humoured chat, though I've known Xtians speak of feeling persecuted for their faith. I smile at that, given the amount of blood and on the hands on Xtianity. To quote Zappa: if there is a Hell, it waits for them, not us.

Culturally I think of myself as a Humanist Abrahamic Marxist; I accept Santa Clause an an integral aspect of this culture too but, like God, I don't believe he actually exists. The folklore intriques; the belief disturbs. As Sun Ra said - the greatest evils on this planet are righteousness and fundamentalism. Thus do I say Atheism is all-embracing...

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:19 AM

It isn't the religiosity at places like York I find irritating, it's the nine quid. I enter the House of the Lord via the souvenir shop, sometimes, though not always, with a carrier bag bearing a simulacrum of the same to shake in the face of nosy parkers wanting a handout. If the government can afford to prosecute foreign wars they can afford to fix the roof on thousand year old buildings.

The alternative is to attend a service which is free and you often get tea and biscuits thrown in.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:19 AM

I'm sorry Sean ~~ but you are, so copping out over your use of that phrase: the Church is not a mere corporal, so 'whatever' here must mean MORE THAN TWO stripes... including your copping·out Misplaced Fundamentalism And Cranky Cults. If you didn't mean them, then you shouldn't have used "whatever", whatever!

And what sort of a 'clause' is Santa ~~ adverbial, adjectival?...

~M~

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:22 AM

... or to put the ? slightly differently, Sean: from where you appear to be coming from, how are the Anglican & RC 'cults' any less 'cranky' than any other of those which you denounce?

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:42 AM

I find the entire premise of this thread laughable. At first I thought it was like an agoraphobic complaining about people hosting open-air concerts, but that is to assume that there's a underlying reason like a phobia that's preventing you entering a church, rather than mere prejudice.

Your prejudice (and that seems to be what it is) should not effect where people choose to host concerts. Attempting to hold them hostage because their own beliefs and values do not tally with your own is pretty sad.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:44 AM

Looks like this thread is drifting into another arguement that no one will win. Try to keep on topic, or start another thread.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:25 AM

From the other point of view.
In my religious youth it disturbed me if concerts and organ recitals were held in church, bringing people into a religious building for a secular purpose.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:32 AM

from where you appear to be coming from, how are the Anglican & RC 'cults' any less 'cranky' than any other of those which you denounce?

In terms of their own folklore I'd say the centuries have smoothed the edges off their dogma, although I must say I'm being very lenient here, given my infrequent associations with their respective laity. I've associated with Benedictine Monks and RC Priests who had less interest in religion than I did; keen to persue sensual licentiousness in the secular world, but who were otherwise devout in the observance of their calling. I can't say I've ever met any Mormon or JW who had such a casual approach to their professed codswallop.

On a more typical level, I often converse with religious types in churches and the impression I get is that their general approach is on a par with that of John Betjemen. For example, the other week I enjoyed telling the Ushers of Beverley Minster that their precious Green Men had nothing to do with Paganism, rather, that they were part of the very fabric of Pre-Reformation Xtian theology and their Fake ID was no older than 1939. They were pleased, but I'm always amazed that many Cathedral / Minster Ushers are outraged that their Green Men aren't Pagan, but rather Catholic - which in their eyes probably seems a far greater evil!

In Worcester Cathedral one chap was very keen on guiding me to a particular misericord with Green Men supporters, but that was entirely incidental to my interest in it because it depicted a folk tale I knew from the collected Eventyr of Asbjorsen and Moe - that of Not Riding, Not Walking, AKA The Clever Daughter (see HERE for my own not very good picture of same; I've since found there is better one in Mike Harding's little book of Misericords if you have it to hand). Such continuities I find remarkable and oddly significant; especially as the Misericord in question is numbered N8 (Innate? Geddit?). The same scene has since turned up again in the misericords at Beverley, Saint Mary's, though I'm not sure if anyone else (other than me) has identified it as such: see HERE.

Simple cultural faith I warm to, no matter what; it's akin to Folk Faith. I recall once that a friend and I were once accosted by two evangelical Xtians who tried to convince us that God was somehow fun. Alas, it was he and not I who opined: God is not fun. God is at one with the dark values of the Gothic wherein the most fun was had by fornicating monks and those who did a roaring trade in Holy Relics. The Clause in question runs (as you'll know & I expect someone'll have pointed out by the time I post this): if any of the parties participating in this contract are shown not to be in their right mind, the entire agreement is automatically nullified.

Amen.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:35 AM

Oh, that Sanity Clause! Oh, no, you cain't fool me ~~ I happen to be a member of The Groucho Club! True!

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Marje
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:55 AM

I think it's fair enough for the OP to draw our attention to the fact that he and others like him have reasons for not wanting to attend performances in a church. There's another group who wouldn't want to attend for the opposite reason - those who feel the church should be kept holy and not used for secular purposes, and who prefer not to go there if it's not for worship. I don't happen to agree with either view, but it's still worth taking into account if you're considering setting up an event in a church.

Marje

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 01:41 PM

Marje
If you look at the prevailing sentiment being expressed in this thread, you'll realise that it really isn't worth bothering taking it into account.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 01:57 PM

I am puzzling why anyone would smile at the thought of anyone being persecuted by anyone else. mg

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:16 PM

"If I honor a "church" by my presence...

That bit really cracked me up.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Guest TF
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:26 PM

Deckman. Standing this somewhat on it's head. I take it that you are forced to leave some concerts early or not go to see some artists of a religious bent. I'm thinking Dolly or Alison Krauss who, regardless of the venue, have a habit of finishing with songs which IMO ram their faith into the assembled throng.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:32 PM

I am puzzling why anyone would smile at the thought of anyone being persecuted by anyone else. mg

The smile is one of wry & bitter irony at the sky-high rhetoric that holds that Xtians are in any way persecuted for their beliefs, in the the west in general, and in the UK in particular. I hope (and suspect) that this is a minority view, and that people in general (Xtian or otherwise) don't regard the increased and essential secularisation as persecution, just a move towards a wider accomodation of cultural diversity as we have in the UK presently, and in my lifetime.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: foggers
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 03:17 PM

I can identify with a sense of discomfort about concerts in church due to my own teenaged experiences within the fundamentalist wing of UK Christianity. During that part of my life I would have disapproved of a church building being used for secular purposes. Having moved away from any version of Christianity, I am left with a tendency to associate certain kinds of church building ("Non-conformist") with a sense of feeling inhibited, which in turn (when I have attended concerts) affects my enjoyment. However it does not affect me in older more traditional church buildings whose architecture, history (and acoustics) I very much enjoy.

So the OP has a valid point that a (possibly small) number of punters may not attend such venues; I would be one such person. Its purely subjective, shaped by my personal past and the sense I make of that now.

(Would now be a good time to share the ironic flipside of this? I still love singing gospel songs, almost as a kind of cultural artefact in my personal heritage, but you will usually find me doing so in
The decidedly secular settings of folk clubs in pubs, or at festivals!)

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 03:47 PM

If the church is being used as a rented building then the location of a concert shouldn't be a problem for anyone. But those of you who might have a problem with a particular church might want to find out if the profits from the concert would be used to promote programs that you might disagree with in principle. If you don't want the money from your ticket promoting a food bank that feeds the poor - that's your decision. Same goes if your concert ticket would help promote demonstrations of a political nature that you would not normally have anything to do with. So it sounds like a little bit of investigation would be in order.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Margaret
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:03 PM

Some small congregations must hire space, often secular, in which to hold their services. Tiny Orthodox Jewish congregations are exemplary, I believe.

That makes me wonder whether that fact would contaminate such a building for Bob such that no amount of regular secular use could decontaminate it for him.



(Full disclosure: I quit the RC church at age 15, and have for ages identified as agnostic since that's the only defensible position for anyone who also identifies with science)

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:13 PM

agnostic since that's the only defensible position for anyone who also identifies with science

That sounds like a gauntlet being thrown down... Care to eleborate?

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:39 PM

The question posed above doesn't seem to have been answered...

---
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:55 AM

I am a minister - from a religion that proudly counts Humanists, Pagans, Buddhists, Christians, Jews, Atheists and others among our number

Wow, Dan! Even atheists? Sounds like my kind of religion...

From: MtheGM
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:56 AM

Has your religion a name, Dan?

~M~
------

Dan Schatz (see also here) is a Unitarian-Universalist minister.

A (Jewish) friend had a joke that he'd never belong to a religion who's main sacrament was coffee (he was a tea drinker). Or was it the potluck? Anyway, UU churches have hosted a lot of folk "coffee houses" (and other concert series) over the years.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:53 PM

"...the sky-high rhetoric that holds that Xtians are in any way persecuted for their beliefs..."

It's hard to say whether it constitutes persecution but one can well imagine those who profess religious beliefs being overlooked in academia, particularly the material sciences.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:12 PM

Globally all sorts of Christians and people of other religions are being persecuted..plus many more have discrimination but not what you would call persecution...which I would define as having some physical aspects to it. No laughing matter regardless of who does it. mg

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Margaret
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:37 PM

"That sounds like a gauntlet being thrown down... Care to eleborate? "

I didn't mean it that way, particularly, and I'm sorry if it seemed a contentious statement.

My point was only that, just as evolution remains, technically, a "theory" capable of being falsified by future evidence, so the existence of an entity we'd call "God" cannot be determined to be true or false based on the evidence we have.

However _unlikely_ the existence of such a being might be, it's not _impossible_, and therefore any absolute stance for or against is necessarily just opinion. "I (don't) believe there's a God, but I might be wrong" is considerably different to "there is a/no God".

Does that clear things up at all?

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 05:55 PM

It may be true that some Christians ~ particularly those of the more fundamentalist persuasion ~ are ridiculed in the US, the UK, and elsewhere in the West. This is by no means the same thing as being persecuted.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 06:04 PM

If ridicule means being denied a position an individual is equipped for based entirely on their beliefs, it is persecution. I notice Prof Dawkins advocates scorn as his preferred method of disenfranchisement. I've found a person's beliefs to be a poor way of judging their abilities and humanity, though I make an exception for politician.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 06:27 PM

I mean persecution as traditionally practiced..hopefully there is none in US or UK at present..but there is elsewhere in the world. mg

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 08:20 PM

Indeed, mg. An increase in the burning of churches and the killing of Christians has been one of the main effects of US policy in the Muslim world.

Deckman: before you unleash the formidable economic power of your boycott on this church and on any fellow-travellers or dupes in the folk community, why not give them a chance to redeem themselves? Wouldn't that be the ethical humane thing to do? Tell the minister your complaint; tell him what he has to do to get you to honor, as you say, his church with your presence. And tell the performer, too, so that fear of losing the price of your ticket will make him put additional pressure on the church to reform in accordance with your views.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 08:38 PM

I'm putting on a day of folk in one of our local churches in Bury St Edmunds The Bury St Edmunds OXJAM Folk Day
on the 29th October, raising money for the work of Oxfam. Because of the charitable nature of the event, I approached several local venues and the church was the only one to offer me free use of their facilities.

I approached Tescos to see if I could get a bit of sponsorship out of them for the event, and was told by the local store management that they could not support the event as it was in a church, despite me making the point that it was merely the building where the event was being held and was not connected in any way with the church. Dissapointed with this response, I phoned head office to check whether this was in fact company policy, and was told that whilst they would not support a religious event for any denomination there was no problem at all with supporting a secular event held in a church premesis. Head office pointed this out to the local store, and I'm pleased to say I got a donation from them. Common sense prevailed, and Tescos showed an understanding that the building is just a building and nothing else.

I will add that the vicar of this particular church is an avid folkie, so that undoutably helped in getting the use of their building. They also have no issues whatsoever with having a bar in the church. Don't forget that people who have a faith of any description are generally just ordinary people.

So if you are in the general area of Bury St Edmunds, don't be afraid to come along, tickets are just £10.00 for the day, with a cracking lineup, including a few regular catters.

John

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM

Thank you Becky - I appreciate the link to my bio. I wasn't being purposefully mysterious, but given the subject of this thread, I had no wish to proselytize. And yes, even atheists! My own theology is a form of Religious Humanism.

And yes - most congregations do charge some rent. But the coffeehouses aren't paying the bills, trust me. (I could only wish....)

Dan

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 03:41 AM

A church near us has been given lottery money to make it more of a community asset, including a museum to its famous past and getting rid of the pews in favour of removable seating so it can be reorganised to suit events, including concerts.

Interestingly, the complaints and "how dare you!" brigade seem to be consisting of those who, according to a friend working on this project, aren't part of the Sunday congregation anyway. T'was ever thus....

Me? Looking forward to suggesting and perhaps helping organise a few concerts once the renovation is complete.

Oh, as everybody is decrying such things, I am irreligious. (Note, not atheist. That has baggage attached in the perception of many people, so I prefer irreligious to describe myself as an onlooker in the same way as I have a mate who is a stamp collector. I don't know of a term of reference for anybody who isn't a stamp collector, but if there was, I am sure a stamp collector came up with it as a term of contempt. I see "atheist" in the same light.)

So there.

Right, where was I? Oh bugger, something to do with work.....

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:04 AM

My local church ( C of E ) was built as a multi use venue and wev'e done some great barn dances there. They just screen off the alter.
Seems a good use of a venue to me and the acoustics are good. I don't think God would mind people getting healthy exercise and enjoying themselves - but it doesn't say a lot about barn dances in the Bible.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:36 AM

Bible seems ambivalent, inconsistent, self-contradictory [o whevs!] about dances & dancing, as so many things. David seems all for harps & timbrels,& danced before the Lord with all his might in II Samuel 6 [tho some ~ er ~ eccentric-sounding glosses about what his actual motive for doing so might have been have been suggested ~ nuff said; google if interested!];

but then there was Salome...

~M~

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:38 AM

Atheism is positive, humanist and all inclusive. It is based on the simple equation that not Religions can be right, but the can all be wrong. Thus, if one is wrong, as human historical & cultural constructs, they all must be wrong. However, the nature of that WRONG isn't absolute, for in being human historical & cultural constructs, Atheism recognises there is human historical & cultural value in them too - be it in terms of music, philosophy, architecture, folklore - and all the good things that human beings get up to anyway.

The negative stuff comes from righteousness, fundamentalism, the notion of heresy & the subsequent opressions and persecutions. As an Atheist I accept Religion as an aspect of Human Culture; I don't think it's an essential, neither do I think that it's an inevitability, nor do I think the religious should be accorded any level of respect or have special priviledges. In the UK today Xtianity is little more than folklore. It gives us holidays like Xmas and Easter - both derived from earlier pre-Xtian seasonal festivals - and it gives us the life and example of some geezer called Jesus Christ who by the simplicity and humility of his life and teachings tells us that all the churches founded in his name are, in effect, 100% horse-chocolate.

True spirituality is the reserve of each and every one of us - it is our right and purpose that comes through simply being alive in the first place; it comes about by recognising that we are but one of billions, each of whom not only have their own way of seeing things but the right to that uniqueness of perspective. The nature of Atheism is to engender that tolerance by removing any sort of absolute from the equation. Life is the only absolute, and life is common to all of us; life is splendid, diverse, equitable and a lot better without the aforementioned equine confectionary no matter how enriching it might be to certain individuals who feel the need for its narcotic comforts.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 06:54 AM

For Flora G.

'I have come so you shall have life, and have it in a barndance'
John 10.10

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: banjoman
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 07:43 AM

Flora - well said -that just about sums it up thanks
Keep in touch
Pete

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 08:36 AM

Suibhne:
Can you explain the use of 'Xtians' & 'Xtianity'?
I'm used to the term Xmas, but haven't seen the two terms you use elsewhere.
If you're hoping to introduce them to the language, should the superfluous 't' be removed?
At present, if 'X' is representing Christ, Xtians would seem to be Christ tians.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 08:38 AM

For Flora G.

'I have come so you shall have life, and have it in a barndance'
John 10.10

Or, without deliberately misquoting:
Praise him with the timbrels & dances. (Psalms 150.4)

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 08:47 AM

Nigel, Xtians is increasingly used as a problematizing word for Christianity, mostly by atheists. It's an attempt to mix religion with fantasy - Klingon, pixies, Santa Claus, etc. Whatever one's personal beliefs the major world religions differ from folklore and fantasy on size and membership at least but that's lost on materialists. Basically, Xtian is a wind-up term to rile believers.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 08:54 AM

When we were in Orkney earlier on this year the local music school put on a free concert inside the Cathedral on the saturday morning. It was a lovely way to view the cathedral, and the music was very good too. I thought at the time what a good way to use the building, while also encouraging the local children in performance arts. I doubted any of our mainland cathedrals would be so innovative.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 09:34 AM

Whatever one's personal beliefs the major world religions differ from folklore and fantasy on size and membership at least but that's lost on materialists.

How can there be limits on such things just because of numbers? A community is a community; fantasy is fantasy & folkore is folklore. Having been brought up Essentially Secular in a supposedly XTIAN UK then the accomodation of such Hoo-Hah and Horse Chocolate (rather than its outright dismissal) becomes a matter of some urgency with respect of a move towards a greater material enlightenment, which is, as I say, common to every single one of us Human Animals on Planet Earth however so diverse we might be otherwise. In this I remain eternally optimistic, and my Atheism is both an outward expression and inner experience of that optimism.

If a Culture / Community chooses to believe in Christ, Klingon, or Harry fecking Potter it amounts to the same thing; I can appreciate this as long as a) they refrain from divisive fundamental righteousness and b) maybe think twice about indocrinating others - including their kids. Material reality is the Common Universal law, anything else is pure fantasy, which is fun until they come knocking at your door offering you salvation from your own humanity. People are free to believe whatever they like but once they assume that what they believe applies to anyone but themselves, that's when the trouble starts.

Atheism isn't a belief; it's a fundamental reality that aspires to all inclusive and accomodating humanistic and compassionate world-view. However if XTIANS are carrying around the idea that everyone but them is going spent eternity in HELL then - how on earth are we meant to accomodate that in the wider scheme of things? Thus I may be a tad vociferous in my encounters with JWs, Mormons and other Random Proselytisers who accost me at home or abroad, otherwise, I'm open to a healthy debate as part of the Human Crack.

So - XTIAN is not a wind-up term; neither is strictly correct (as pointed out by Nigel Parsons above); it's simply a convenient shorthand, like XMAS, derived from the Chi-Ro adopted by the early church and still used as an icon by various Xtian churches today. If Xtians feel it somehow crosses out Christ then that's fair enough because in the unlikely event of Christ pulling off this second coming, and judging by things he actually said during his ministry, the Xtian churches would be the first thing to go. He'd sweep them all aside just as he threw the money lenders out of the temple and resume his usual habit of hanging around with outsiders and outcasts, the same folk I've seen routinely ejected from Manchester Cathedral least their presence offend the more deserving clientelle.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 09:48 AM

Xtian was popularised at the same time as New Atheism and is part of the same folklore. It differs from the noble tradition of disbelief by being polemical and science centered.
I'm not arguing about the viability of Christianity or any other belief, I'm attempting to posit the word Xtian in the context of the time.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 11:21 AM

X was from the Greek chi.

I think that this abbreviation was the result of seeing/reading the letter X aloud and taking that as an abb for Christ. If ya go Christ-tian the double T is difficult to say. Go X-tian and it's easier.

English speakers are 'lazy' with pronunciations, thus things like the great vowel shift and the great consonant shift. Both occurred to make pronunciation easier for the speaker.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 11:28 AM

Polemics are good, as is science. Apart from anything else they equip people to better deal with the evangelising psychic terrorism of the religious and their various political / spiritual / cultural agendas.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 11:41 AM

Polemics is attack by controversy, science is a diagnostic method. Atheism - or so my atheist friends tell me - is simply a lack of belief in a deity. The association between that (dis)belief and materialism is a social construct which is folkloric in nature. That's fine by me because I value folklore highly. What it ain't is scientific.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 11:48 AM

(coincidentally i am just listening to dylan's christmas album. on my computer it follows bert jansch alphabetically, and i just nodded off)anyway, i am an atheist and would have no problem going to any religious building if the music was tempting enough. however, much as i like kate rusby i have no interest in her religious offerings and would avoid a gig around that time of year. my major concern is that many gigs i go to these days (i saw kate rusby at the york barbican a couple of weeks back) are depressingly safe and sterile. not kate's fault (though i do prefer the artists to drink beer or wine to water or tea) it was more the venue which was unsuitable and sterile. and the audience - what has happened to us - ties? heels? impeccable behaviour? i long for the days of smoke and sticky carpets, intimacy, drink and general recklessness and a better community thing. clearly not every gig can be a pogues christmas reunion but this is supposed to be fun isn't it- we don't have to act like we are at church, we don't have to get old -peace and love, pete

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Margaret
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 12:11 PM

For the sake of decreasing bruxation in linguists, do please spell it "Xian", not "Xtian". As Nigel pointed out above, the t is completely surplus to requirements, since the X itself stands for the full word including the t, cf 'Xmas' not 'Xtmas'.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 12:43 PM

Good luck with that, Margaret.

A google of Xtian brings up 1,860,000 sites. A google of various approaches to Xian will land one in a gang of Chinese sites with the name Xi'an to the tune of 107,000,000.

I agree with you, but I think it's too late.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:06 PM

bruxation in linguists

The best linguists I find roll with pragmatic flow of language rather than insist on summary correctness. That's not linguistics anyway - it's pedantry - which induces bruxation in the best of us, but in this case, insists on a rule in the face of so well established a neologism. Also in pronouncing Xtian, I say X-tian, just as I say X-mas; it wouldn't work as X-ian.