Public concerts in 'churches' ?

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:59 AM

I suppose we can tend to feel possessive or at least protective of threads we start - but we don't own them, and can't just wind them up. Like having a child, as Suibhne said, or lighting a fire. (If you start a tune in a session and you can lift up your leg to mark an end, but that doesn't always work.)

When drift gets in the way of a discussion that can be annoying - but in this case that hasn't happened. The original point has been tossed around and explored pretty extensively, and the discussion has moved on. That's what discussions do.

If the discussion has moved on to stuff Deckman isn't interested in, well there are plenty of other threads, and its easy enough to pull up an old one or start a new one if need be.

I've always quite enjoyed it when a thread I've started keeps on going and veers off into strange territory. Even if I stop contributing I like to drop in and see how things are going. Perhaps Deckman might do that, if this one keeps going.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:07 AM

Thanks fellows ... I appreciate the lectures. Maybe, at some time in the future, I'll check in again and see how mudcat is doing. Best wishes ... bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:38 PM

m ay be not quite accurate that a thread cant be closed just by asking.
a post i was contributing to was closed following a proposer and a seconder.
maybe thats how its done?
no explanation given.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 01:11 PM

No one's saying a thread can't be closed by asking (as I've heard say) - but I'm sure there're other factors involved than a petulant OP just needing a little help to get over himself and his irrational phobia of Churches. There's been secular music in Churches going back hundreds of years - and lots of secular elememts incorporated into the liturgy, from Pagan Roman Chant that (allegedly) formed the basis of early Xtian plainsong to the sort of ghastly Fun 'n' Folk Mass certain clergy feel the need to inflict on their flocks in more recent times. Indeed, I remember one idiot priest playing REM's Everybody Hurts over his ghetto blaster during Holy Communion. I had to leave the church for fear of pissing myself, but no one else was amused I'm sure & the stunt, fortunately, wasn't repeated.

The situation is oddly reversed in the UK Registry Office where couples are denied even a hint of religion in their state marriage ceremony - even Robbie Williams Angels is a no-no. We got round this by sneeking in an In Nomine by Willian Lawes which is essentially a secular piece of music using a sacred ground. My wife's Mother Church wouldn't marry us on account of me being still married (although long divorced). Whilst this sort of mushy-mouthed medievalism irks me greatly, I'm pragmatic enouigh in my atheism to take it in good grace. Indeed, I tore up the papers our local priest gave me necessary to annul my first marriage. As said priest said, it's all a Godless lot of crap anyway.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:17 PM

Well, if there are people still wanting to talk, it doesn't make sense to close down a thread just because somebody asked. We accept requests for thread closure, talk about it, and then make a decision.
This thread has been distasteful to me from the very beginning - even the enclosure of the word 'churches' in quotes rubs me the wrong way.

But hell, anti-religious bigotry is the law of the land at Mudcat. After all, says the Conventional Wisdom, it's only right to insult people who practice religion, since they're such a horrible blight on humankind.

Bullshit.

I have felt insulted by almost every religion thread at Mudcat.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:41 PM

Be warned before you start. This screed is pretty long.

I wanted to say something on the particular subject that Deckman addressed in his opening post. And this, if you will indulge me, is a test run. I have just loaded the latest version of Dragon NaturallySpeaking, a voice recognition and dictation program, on my laptop and I wanted to give it a workout. So here we go:

####

I've gone to churches to hear musical performances a number of times, and I've also sung in churches from time to time. For the most part, these were performances that had nothing to do with the church itself. The church was merely the venue.

Most of my early experiences with churches were reasonably pleasant. I can't say that my father was not a religious man, but he was not in the habit of going to church with any regularity. I think he found his religious experiences in nature. He loved to get out on a body of water such as Puget Sound in the small boat and just cruise around, under the guise of fishing. He never talked much about things religious.

My mother, on the other hand, was a "seeker." She recalled a time in her early twenties when she and a friend went to church of a Sunday morning and heard the same droning, boring sermon she had heard off and on every Sunday morning for most of her life. As they were leaving the church, her friend heaved a heavy sigh, and said, "That just wasn't enough food for my soul!" Mom said that was exactly how she felt. She read a great deal, often in Eastern religions, and dipped into the occult from time to time. Whenever we went to church, it was usually on a religious holiday such as Christmas or Easter. Then sporadically there would be periods where we would attend one church or another with some regularity, such as the Christian Science church a couple of blocks from where we lived, or a Unity church near downtown. Also, for a period of time, she attended the Vedanta Center (genuine Hindu swami presiding) on the north side of Capitol Hill on Sunday mornings. As I said, she was a "seeker."

My own religious beliefs (if any) are a slumgullion composed of a mixture of skepticism and speculation, liberally spiced with both ancient and modern philosophy, and fairly solidly anchored by my love for and fascination with science and cosmology.

Do I believe in God? Well, yes and no. I have a hard time buying the image of the big, muscular Father Figure dressed in a nightshirt, with the stern visage and long beard, who keeps careful accounts of who's naughty and nice, hurls the occasional thunderbolt, marks the fall of every sparrow, and who cobbled this whole, immense Cosmos together in seven literal days a mere 6,000 years ago.

On the other hand, I also have a hard time buying the idea that it's all just a random, mechanical construct with no underlying purpose or meaning.

I figure that if the Cosmos was purposefully built by someone or something, then that someone or something is so far beyond our understanding and ability to comprehend that for someone to seriously say that he or she knows the Mind of God, they either have to be a con-merchant or seriously bewildered.

Who knows? We all may be little bits of fungus growing in some celestial Petri dish, and what we think of as God is merely a lab technician in some Universal Laboratory.

I have an emotional prejudice against the idea that it's All Meaningless, and that when I come to fall off the twig, my awareness (Soul? Whatever.) will simply wink out. But—who really knows?

Nobody, that's who. No matter how hard they pound on the Bible.

But I'm cool. My mother was kind of into the idea of reincarnation a bit. I figure that when my time comes, if there IS an Afterlife, it will be a whole new adventure. But if not, I will have no "awareness" with which to be disappointed. So, no sweat.

I have been "assaulted" by a variety of weirdos who were hell-bent on saving my soul (I think their minister gave them a quota or something), but due to a course I took at the University of Washington back shortly after the Big Bang, "The Bible as Literature," I was well armed against such assaults. In the class there was absolutely NO religious discussion allowed. What we read was to be discussed as literary works, short stories, poetry, et al, and the prof stepped heavily on anyone who wanted to discuss any possible religious interpretations. Therefore, when someone started slapping me around with verses from the Bible, I was able to interrupt them and say, "Wait a minute! That isn't what that verse means!" then quote it back to them in context and point out what it really meant.

I could be a real pain in the ass to self-appointed soul-savers! (Fun!!)

My wife was raised in the Lutheran church, and went to church regularly all of her life, so when we got married, I started going with her. Despite the fact that she went to a main-line church all her life, she's an independent thinker, and she thinks very much the way I do. We're both members of Central Lutheran Church on Capitol Hill in Seattle. The pastors have all been cool, and the pastor who was there when I first joined, and all of the subsequent ones, were people I could have long, philosophical discussions with. They were open to all kinds of speculation and were not at all dogmatic.

In fact, one of them once held up a copy of the Bible and said, 'This is NOT the Boy Scout Manual! It's full of questions, not answers! And that's what we're here to discuss."

I can get thoroughly disgusted with some of these people who claim to be "Christians" (displaying a great deal of Pride—which is one of the Seven Deadly Sins—in the idea that they are saved and you, undoutedly, are not) who espouse ideas and principles that, according to the Bible, anyway, Jesus specifically preached against! Plenty of examples of this. Compare what Jesus says in Matthew 25:35-40 to the current crop of hard-charging evangelical "Christian" Right-Wingers who want to obliterate such things as Social Security and Medicare and eliminate all social programs—and then rant that they're trying to turn the United States into a "Christian" country as the Founding Fathers intended, thereby displaying their ignorance of the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights as well. Bloody hypocrites!!

And I get equally disgusted with the kind of "Christians" who do little but dwell on other people's sins, are dogmatic and dictatorial, and emphasize the "Thou shalt nots" rather than talking about anything positive, such as forgiveness and redemption-- which, incidentally, is what Jesus talked about most of the time. It's this kind of negative mentality that will generously allow a kid to practice his lessons on the church's piano during off hours, and then, when he practices some scales and tries to work a bit on a piece by Fredric Chopin, they yank him off the piano for playing "that sort of thing" (was Chopin a Rastafarian or something?) and not "Christian music." With that sort of intimidation and general repressive atmosphere, no wonder the kid develops a life-long aversion to churches and religion in general.

To me, church buildings are bricks and mortar, and most of them have very good acoustics. They're intended to be that way, obviously. I have no qualms about going to a church to hear some non-affiliated musician or musical group perform. Nor do I have any qualms about performing in most churches provided I'm free to perform what I what (keeping in mind such things as good taste. I would not be inclined to sing "Sam Hall" with a stained glass picture of Jesus smiling benevolently down at me).

In the church to which Barbara and I belong, I have heard a number of concerts, including a couple of lutenists doing duets (very suitable setting for the Renaissance music they were playing) and I also heard an "early music" group who did several songs from D'Urfey's "Pills to Purge Melancholy" (from which Ed McCurdy got most of the songs he sang on his "When Dalliance was in Flower and Maidens Lost their Heads" albums). Nobody complained.

I have also performed in this church, taking part in periodic social evenings within the congregation (singing programs of folk songs and ballads), and at one Christmas Eve candlelight service, I played the guitar and sang a duet of "Silent Night" with one of the choir members, duplicating the first time the carol was sung—duet with guitar accompaniment. I also sang John Jacob Niles's "I Wonder as I Wander," and then provided guitar accompaniment for my wife and another woman as they sang, in duet, the "Coventry Carol" and "Down in Yon Forest." Most appropriate for a Christmas Eve candlelight service.

But—there ARE churches—self-styled "Christian" churches like the negative ones I talk about above—that I would not enter under ANY circumstances.

Major point: Since Barbara and I are members of the church, for the concert on October 14th, 2007, we got the use of the church without charge. Just as a courtesy, I slipped a few bucks to the custodian because he had to hang around 'til the concert and reception were over and do whatever tidying up might be necessary. None of it went into the church funds.

But even if it had, that would not have particularly bothered me, knowing this church as I do. The pastor insists on taking a much smaller salary than is usual for pastors, and most of the church funds, provided by the Sunday collection plate and various contributions and donations from the congregation, go for such programs as providing nourishing meals in the large meeting room in the parish house next door for people down on their luck (without their having to "pay" for the meal by listening to a sermon). The church is also involved in an ongoing program of finding or providing safe and comfortable housing for the homeless or those with low incomes.

They "preach" service, taking their lesson from the text in Matthew 25:35-40 as mentioned above, and they practice what they preach.

Don Firth

Note: all of the above done by dictation, including additions and corrections and general editing and tidying up, without having to touch the keyboard.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 06:10 PM

Well Joe ... I'll apologize to YOU, but only to you. And I apologize to you because of my great respect for you.

When I started this thread, I was sincerly wondering if anyone other than myself had difficulties entering a church for a folk music concert.

I certainly wasn't trying to start a fight, but I guess I should have known better. STOOOPID ME! eh?

I'm outa' here. bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: John P
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:07 PM

I have felt insulted by almost every religion thread at Mudcat.

Joe, would it be more accurate to say that every religion thread has had individuals on them who write insulting things? The threads themselves, from what I've seen, have MOSTLY not been started as insults, and many people are perfectly polite, even if they disagree with religious belief in general. I hope I've stayed in that category; please let me know if I ever cross a line for you.

Anyone who paints all religious people (or all atheists, or all anything else) with the same brush are just garden-variety losers. I'm especially tired of the incessant review of religious atrocities from the past. Stupid and pointless! But I've also had several really good discussions with fair-minded people on these threads.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:35 PM

Joe, you feel insulted because you're on one "side" of the issue. The law of the land here is to fight about anything that suits your fancy, even if that fight has happened to the point where anybody with a brain is actually bored by it.

It's the internet. 4% of the people on the internet are either assholes or morons, and another 1% is just batshit crazy. Unfortunately, that 3% writes 99% of the posts, and the only thing they care about is having an audience for their shit.

Are we having fun yet?

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 12:20 AM

Well, Jeri, I'm insulted because it's people here that I like who are so closed-minded to religious thinking, that all they can see is fundamentalism, judgmentalism, and prejudice among religious people. It's very evident that fundamentalism, judgmentalism, and prejudice exist among some religious people, but that's far from the norm.

That being said, I have to say that there have been some very good and very tolerant things said in this thread, even by atheists. Here's something from Suibhne that I liked very much:

I merely meant that established religions - be they RC or Anglican - tend to comprise mostly civilised individuals who recognise the folkloric realities of religion (i.e. they can't all be right but they can all be wrong) and treat their entirely subjective faith accordingly and refrain from proselytizing because, deep down, that faith is gratifyingly accomodating of the fact that there are as many spiritual truths on this planet as there are individual human beings.

Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 05:12 AM

there are as many spiritual truths on this planet as there are individual human beings.

I think that's the one thing any of us can be certain about and why, essentially, I'm an atheist, but insist on being all accommodating if a little evangelistically so at times, but only by way of a greater sense of inclusion. In discussion these things are always more straightforward and polemical, especially on-line; I don't even debate the issues with door-to-door canvassers anymore and though many of my friends & family are deeply religious (my sister-in-law is head of religious studies at an RC high school) we get along famously.

Earlier on I figured that the only truly sacred buildings are our homes - in terms of sanctuary, sanctity and a more vivid sense of 'Holiness', the violation of which is quite unthinkable. This sacredness is at once common to all (all who have homes anyway) & entirely subjective, just as spirituality is subjective, just as life experience is subjective. We have our joys, sorrows, loves, losses, and in our homes we mark these with seasonal rites and anniversaries, Folklore, Customs and Traditions which are also strictly personal, totally objective and unique from one family to a next even though they might just happen to share superficial similarities to what may or may not happen next door.

In England, Churches are an integral aspect of our urban and rural landscapes; big, small, old, new - they are loved of all & cherished by the religious and the atheist alike. In many cases they are iconic to our regional ID - like Durham Cathedral, which exists on any number of cultural levels. For some, it's all about the incorrupt corpse of a celebrated Northumbrian Saint, and of the Venerable Bede who collected his hagiography together in terms of enchanting Folk Tales full of humour, exciting miracles, enchanting animals and a richer humanity that makes Saint Cuthbert a fascinating figure to this day. For others Durham Cathedral will be sacred because to Jimi Hendrix it was fairy-land; something I bear in mind everytime I look at that famous view from the train window as you cross the viaduct...

In terms of wider Folklore, perhaps the most enduring memories of music in Durham Cathedral is the times I've been in there during the Miners' Gala and the acoustics come alive as a colliery band plays Gresford - or something suitably solemn, but not overtly sacred - only in the hearts that are stilled to a tremor in the presence of something that awesome, but essentially unsayable, however so common the cause which now exists in terms of a raw cultural emotion. Other times I've watched operas by Peter Maxwell Davies (the Martyrdom of Saint Magnus back in 1977 - ostensibly religious but Max concentrated as much on contemporary persecution as he does on saintly themes; the cathedral was ideal space for both) and Henry Purcell (Dido and Aeneas is as pagan as it gets, but Durham Cathedral accommodated it, wanton sailors, witches & all, with good grace).

During the York Early Music festival it would be hard to avoid music in churches - sacred, secular, solemn, sensual. I've seen Jordi Savall's Hesperion XXI up by the high alter in the Minster playing Spanish secular Folias, Villancicos and Canarios - and I've seen Esther Lamandier playing medieval love songs on harp and portative organ in a fine old church back in 1981 (can't remember which). We missed Emma Kirkby's recital in Ss Peter and Paul at Salle a few years ago, but in our travels (which always includes historic churches) you'd be amazed at the variety of musical performances happening in the most far-flung parishes. People - artists & punters alike - warm to the cultural & historical resonance of an old church. The spiritual dimension is always subjective; that's a personal thing, but one thing we can all share in is the beauty of place and a more communal appreciation of its place in our wider community, history & folklore both local and national. Anyone who owns Simon Jenkins' England's Thousand Best Churches will know what I mean; just as they will also know that it barely represents the tip of the iceberg.