 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House...
|
|
|
Subject: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Bobert Date: 04 Oct 11 - 08:50 PM Well, well, well... Seems that our new-to-us house here in NC has a heat pump sans the heat... Bad news... That's the way it was built... Air conditioning only... Dual fuel system except the other fuel is propane and the propane furnace is burned up??? "Oh, why did I even buy a $1000 car..." (Bottle Rockets)...lol... So, we have no heat... Fun, fun, fun... B:~( |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Oct 11 - 08:54 PM No furnace? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Bobert Date: 04 Oct 11 - 09:51 PM Doesn't work... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: frogprince Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:01 PM "I've got my love...to keep me warm..." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:08 PM Put in a good wood burning stove (I personally like those old trash burners with a fan on the stove pipe to blow heat into the house. We had one at our cabin when I was a kid and it kept the house toasty.) Or a fireplace insert or pellet stove. Along the same lines of needing heat as fall advances, I turned up the heat on my hot water heater today. I'd had it turned down as low as possible this summer because the tap water was coming in warm enough for showers. Now it isn't, now I have the windows open for fresh air and I love the feel of the cool room and the hot water in the shower. Kind of the bathing equivalent of sweet and sour food. :) SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Bobert Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:13 PM There's a stove insert in the fireplace... Too heavy for me to pull out... Chimney not cleaned in years and dangerous... Chimney sweep coming on Oct. 17th... BTW, we have a real heat pump being installed over the next week so we'll be fine... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: GUEST,mg Date: 04 Oct 11 - 10:33 PM Oh don't talk about showers...my bathroom is so cold and I just hate taking them once the weather turns wet and miserable, which will clear in time for Sunnycamp of course, but then 6 months of cold damp miserable showers....If I am warm on one side I am cold on the other..I truly hate them...should get in one right now but I haven't quite talked myself into it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: GUEST,ChanteyLass Date: 04 Oct 11 - 11:40 PM Nooo! Hate it when that happens! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: gnu Date: 05 Oct 11 - 03:31 PM Oh my. A home inspection may have helped knock down the price. I always used to run up the furnace and then the AC, depending on the ambient temp, of course. Home inspectors only charge several hundred bucks and even tho it's only a "visual" inspection, it's a good idea. I saved hundreds of people a LOT of money... and heartache. Having said that, ya gotta be careful when ya choose a home inspector. Not all of them are ahh, err, well... honest. Ya gotta read the fine print and get references. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: JohnInKansas Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:48 PM There was a "trend" in the mid-60s here of building "all electric" houses, with heat pumps for both heating and cooling. A half-dozen associates who bought into the trend had words (quote "#@$!%") to say about the systems about the first time the seasons changed and they got their electric bills. An advantage they had was that when the "all electric" fad kicked off, most of the new construction included excellent (compared to the norm here) insulation, but even in the best of cases all the added attention to insulation barely brought the cost of electric (heat pump) heating close to the costs for the more common natural gas. Propane is generally a little more expensive than natural gas, with the added hassle of filling the tank regularly, but the existence of dual heat pump/propane systems suggests two rather different possibilities. If the propane was the original heat, and the prior owners just thought a heat pump would be a nice addition when they added air conditioning, the house may not have the "super insulation" common in "built all electric" homes. You may be able to profit from a carefully designed/installed improvement in insulation. If the propane was added because the heat pump was too expensive for heating, or was inadequate to provide good quality of heating, you may want to consider repair/replacement of the propane furnace as well. A third, less likely possibility, is that the propane furnace came after an electirc power outage that demonstrated the absence of heat pump output when a line goes down. (Presence of an auxiliary power source for the thermostat, valves, and igniter might indicate this?) Note too, if you consider boosting house insulation, that a few years after several hundred all-electric houses had been built, it was discovered that the "superinsulation" - which also includes strict avoidance of all outside air exchanges - boosted the Radon levels in many of these homes to rather high levels. Opening a window or two, and ventilating reasonably frequently is about all that's required to keep the Radon down; but being aware that you need to do it (especially in a tightly sealed house) doesn't come naturally to lots of people. Continuing with the planned heat pump replacement is the proper thing to do, but the other possibilities should probably be put on the planning board agenda for consideration later. John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: gnu Date: 05 Oct 11 - 05:02 PM Indeed, John, there is more than meets the eye in considering HVAC systems in a house. "Superinsulation" (almost akin to R2000 here in Canada) has proven to be a serious problem when the home owner doesn't know how to recognize problems inherent with such designs which MAY occur. I fought against the widespread use of much of the new "technology". The REAL problems on many of these houses built in the 80s and 90s were only recognized after the five year warranty (a program to boost sales) on such homes was over... rotting sill plates and worse. There IS such a thing as TOO energy efficient and it cannot be cured with a heat/air exchanger. Simply, a house has to be able to breathe so the occupants can also breathe. It's a fine balance and the industry and government here went WAY too far one way. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Ed T Date: 05 Oct 11 - 05:23 PM I installed a mini split heat pump last year (heat and air conditioning), to supplement my oil fired furnace. It was the best, most economical decision I could have made. The new generation heat pumps are less expensive and more efficient (SEER rating), compared to the older versions some folks remember from even a few years back. Overall, I more than saved the cost of the unit and installartion (which was not very complex), versus using total oil, in one season. And, unlike the older versions, it produced heat down to -21 celcius (as cold as it got last year, where I live). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: JohnInKansas Date: 05 Oct 11 - 07:47 PM One of the occasional participants in conversations at my shop during the 60s was an old-line engineer who'd installed a home-made heat pump system about 20 years before the rest of the world caught on. His worked quite well (according to him) and inexpensively, because he tapped the water table (about 35 feet down in his neighborhood) and used recirculated water at the stable ~34F temperature as the "heat sink side" of the heat exchangers. The minor loss from heating while sinking to 35F when the OAT was a little higher was more than made up when the air got below about 38 (due to better conduction in/out of the water), and dumping the heat while cooling was a lot more efficient anytime house cooling was needed. Since Colorado and Nebraska have drained the Olgallala I'm not sure his system would still be working (water tables have dropped about 30 feet in some parts of the area) but it worked great back then. And gnu is correct about the need to be aware of a lot of possible results of tight sealing of a house. Radon accumulation is an almost universal result, but usually seasonal venting is sufficient if done right. Humidity related difficulties can be really troublesome, both from too high or too low moisture - and a lot of damage can result before some of the effects get noticed unless you watch for them. Fresh air is still usually a good thing, despite some "fresh air" being rather dirtier than I remember from days long ago. John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Bobert Date: 05 Oct 11 - 07:51 PM Couple things: First, the reason we didn't do the home inspection was because we wanted the house and it was a "short sale" so we were dealing with bankers who aren't all that flexible... Plus, I know building and checked out everything I could think of... Missed the fact that what looked like a heat pump wasn't... Second, propane, as opposed to natural gas, is expensive compared to electricity... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Oct 11 - 07:54 PM When I was looking at this house evidence on condition was slim. The owners lived in Jordan (yes, the one in the Middle East) and filled out the form saying they hadn't lived in it so couldn't report condition. They had rented for 15 years, the last 10 to the same family, and they had moved out nearly 2 years earlier. But I found a stray piece of mail in the box and looked up the name and they lived nearby. I asked if I could interview her about the house, and learned about what did and didn't work. The AC was on death's door - the repair man had told her it wouldn't last another season. The bids I got on a system included looking at what was there - they said about 3 SEER. The bills had been horrendous summer and winter. Since the owners had rejected 2 low-ball bids in the last 20 months, I figured third time might be the charm, and I included a list of the repair's needed and a quote on the AC (heat pump). I actually got the house lowered by $12,000 from their original listing price and at the time of sale they gave me $8000 to put in a new AC system. It hinged on both an inspection and having a contractor friend go through and make his list for me. And a lot of waiting to see if they'd accept it. I put in 2 heat pumps, a new 2 ton one in the remodeled portion of the house, it works well this way (and we'd have had to tear up a bathroom to make a 5 ton unit fit in a 3 ton closet). SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 05 Oct 11 - 08:22 PM I have no advice to offer, but I'm planning on using that "________ shaped object" line as often as possible. I think it will prove very useful to describe non-working devices. For example, judging by the sounds it's making, I suspect I will soon be the proud owner of a washing machine shaped object. If you would like royalties for use of the line, let me know. I have three or four lawnmower shaped objects, a recently expired shallow water jet pump shaped object, and even a Dodge pickup with a blown engine shaped object that I'd be glad to offer as payment. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: gnu Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:10 PM Ed... "it produced heat down to -21 celcius". Wow! Last time I read any lit (years ago) it was 15C. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM bobert - I can believe that propane heat is more expensive in many, if not most, places. Back when lots of people at the office were discussing utility costs, in our area propane was a little cheaper; but the last time I filled an RV bottle the price had doubled since the previous fill. Natural gas prices, and electrical rates actually do vary quite a lot across the country, and not always in step with each other, so the calculations have to be done based on what's available locally and on how long you guess it will take the RBs to lobby another rate hike through. Regarding how cold the outside can get and still get heat on the inside, the heat pump has to be able to get the cold side heat exchanger colder than the outside air, in order to take heat from it; and it has to be able to make the hot side warmer than the air around it to dump any heat into it. Most heat pumps have "cutoffs" - usually fairly simple thermostats - that limit the temperature range they'll work in, but most of them have a "thermal capacity" well outside the cutoff range. If you're concerned about long life and/or the possible negative effects of operating outside the normal (specified in your user manual?) range, a heat pump that works "too well" might be ready for some maintenance. For the heating cycle, the cutoff used on the cold side is rather variable, depending on manufacturer, but for the cooling (air conditioning) cycle it's common to shut off when the evaporator gets to about 40F (~5C) to prevent ice formation that makes the thing work extra hard due to near zero efficiency (and to avoid wet carpets that people sue ya for when the ice melts). Burying the outside heat exchanger below the frost line can significantly extend the difference between indoor and outdoor air temperatures that can be achieved, since in most areas the heat exchanger is then working in/out of a fairly constant temperature that's stable and "more benign" than the actual air temp. As my friend did many years ago "submerging" the outside exchanger in deep enough water works even better. The frequency of use of these additional design methods varies a lot with where you're located, and outside of areas where experience with buried/submerged exchangers has been accumulated contractors may not have the knowledge or equipment needed to use them. John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Oct 11 - 06:13 PM BWL, I believe you need to make a trip to a junk-yard-shaped location soon. SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Bobert Date: 06 Oct 11 - 07:28 PM I originally used the "___________ shaped object" in describing my poor brother's "boat shaped object"... lol... BTW, John... Propane is very expensive here... Also, I will be burning some wood (maybe a lot of wood) as I have at least 7 dead or seriously damaged oak trees on the property... One 100 footer fell by itself and I've been cutting on it and will get around 3 cords from it alone... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: JohnInKansas Date: 07 Oct 11 - 05:50 AM bobert - So if you don't get the heat turned on, you can still stay warm chopping wood ... (?). Sounds like you can probably stay fairly well het up most of a winter just getting the wood worked up. John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: gnu Date: 07 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM Yer gonna BURN oak? Get thee a woodworking hobby! What kinda oak? I have made a shitload of oak furniture... it's my fav... with a golden stain... various curios, corner hutch, chests... BURN IT? AGGGHHHH! I love birdseye maple but it's too expensive and I like oak grain. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: JohnInKansas Date: 07 Oct 11 - 05:25 PM Dead or dying trees, oak or otherwise, seldom produce much wood of useful quality for making stuff. You usually need to cut live wood to get good wood. And there are many varieties of oak, some of which produce good wood and some that usually don't. All of it burns pretty nicely. Oak is a prefered firewood here, since there are lots of "scrub" stands. Unfortunately some of the suppliers have trouble telling scrub oak from Osage Orange (also common here), and mixing the two makes a nice hot fire - mostly somewhere other than in the fireplace when the O. O. explodes. (But it's only a little worse than green elm.) John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: gnu Date: 07 Oct 11 - 05:37 PM Dying trees produce some of the most amazing grains patterns! A buddy of mine used to scour the countryside and ask land owners if he could buy and cut down a particular tree and bury it on the property for threes years just to bring on rot. He was an artist in woodworking. Never paid fer a tree... when they saw his work they were happy to let him do it for free. Some of his pieces sold for a whack of money... lots of customers in Japan. Burn em if ya want but geeeee whiz ehhhh! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Ed T Date: 07 Oct 11 - 05:42 PM Yes Gnu, there have been significant advancemenmts made in heat pump technology to make them more suitable for colder climates in a couple of front (such as adopting inverter technology, to increase efficiency). The unit I purchased last year was developed for cold conditions, like in in Canada. Though there are a number of brands, the brand I have is imported, (yes from China, with some japanese parts), by a Moncton based company and is distributed throughout the Maritime provinces. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Bobert Date: 07 Oct 11 - 07:11 PM Well, gn-ze... Lotta red oak here... They are the ones that have died... I have 6 still standing and 2 down... One I have cut up.... The other I am working on... If you want one of the remaining 6, come and get it... I'll put yer name on it... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Bobert Date: 07 Oct 11 - 07:13 PM BTW, the 2 down blew down and were a live at the time... The 6 standing are all dead... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: JennieG Date: 07 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM Bobert, how cold does it get where you live? As an Ozzie with a sketchy knowledge of US weather pattern, I'm curious. Cheers JennieG |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Bobert Date: 07 Oct 11 - 08:42 PM 10 degrees F... That's, ahhhhh, about -7 C... Okay that was a guess... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: GUEST,ChanteyLass Date: 07 Oct 11 - 08:58 PM Very close, Bobert. It's really -12.222 . . . . Here's a nifty conversion website. All you have to do is enter the F or C temp and click outside the box and the corresponding temp appears. I use this site all the time when I write to my friend in Lincolnshire or read her messages. http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/tempfc.htm |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Bobert Date: 07 Oct 11 - 09:10 PM Thanks, C-Lass... We Yanks don't do temps to well... We do better with metric wrenches... 1/2 inch = 13 mm, 7/16 inch = 14 mm, etc... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: JohnInKansas Date: 08 Oct 11 - 12:52 AM (F - 32)/1.8 = C (C x 1.8)+32 = F Pretty simple. John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: JennieG Date: 08 Oct 11 - 01:22 AM That's the average daily minimum temperature in the middle of winter, right? Anything colder than -5 deg C is a bit coolish to me, although it's not uncommon here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: Bobert Date: 08 Oct 11 - 09:50 AM Correction: 9/16s wrench = 14 mm... See??? We yanks don't do metrics too well... lol... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: ChanteyLass Date: 08 Oct 11 - 02:54 PM Bobert, I really did LOL! And John in Kansas, I also LOLed when I read those formulas which would probably make me as crazy now as they did when I was a schoolchild if I tried to do them with pencil and paper! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: JohnInKansas Date: 08 Oct 11 - 05:29 PM You don't need pencil and paper. Just type "=(F-32)/1.8" in Word, (without the quotes), substite your Fahrenheit temp for the F, highlight the whole thing, hit Ctl-F9, and then hit F9 (without the Ctl) one more time, and you'll see the answer - degrees C. Shift-F9 will go back to showing you the equation so you can put a different "F" in, and F9 will show the new answer. If you can type (or copy & paste) the equation, Word will do the calculations for you once you put numbers in place of the "variable names." Click on Insert-Field in Word for lots of other simple things you can do without a whole lot of thinking. John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Heat Pump Shaped Object in New House... From: ChanteyLass Date: 08 Oct 11 - 10:16 PM Thanks, but I think I;ll stick with the website I cited above! To each his/her own! |
