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Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011)
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Subject: Obit: Moammar Gadhafi From: Sawzaw Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:32 AM Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi, the most wanted man in the world, has been killed, the country's rebel government claimed today. The flamboyant tyrant who terrorized his country and much of the world during his 42 years of despotic rule was cornered by insurgents in the town of Sirte, where Gadhafi had been born and a stronghold of his supporters. The National Transition Council said that its fighters found and shot Gadhafi in Sirte, which finally fell to the rebels today after weeks of tough fighting. Word of Gadhafi's death triggered celebrations in the streets of Tripoli with insurgent fighters waving their weapons and dancing jubilantly. The White House and NATO said they were unable to confirm reports of his death. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: GUEST,999 Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:41 AM Here's to hoping the reports haven't been exaggerated and that all our troops can now come home. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: BTNG Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:42 AM as you and the USA say his death has not been confirmed, in the words of the British newspaper, The Independent "details are hazy" except it seems in the Daily Torygraph and Reuters, who, of course got their information from the NTC, who being the "victors" would of course say things like this, they have this need to please the world, and, of course obtain funds. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: saulgoldie Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:56 AM Meh, two octogenerian bad guys. Whether they might have done any more evil is open to discussion. However, they both profoundly changed the way we live our lives in the Western world. So they may not have "won the war." But they left their mark. And they were both in ways creations of that Western world. Saul |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: artbrooks Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:08 AM There are photos at cnn.com that are allegedly Gadhafi, but no independent confirmation yet. BTW, he would have been 70 next year, so not quite an octogenarian yet. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: Ebbie Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:08 AM Octogenarian? Who is/was an octogenarian? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: BTNG Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:09 AM another "reliable source" CNN (tongue planted firmly in cheek) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: Sawzaw Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:17 AM "all our troops can now come home" Are there troops in Libya? Obama said "there will be no boots on the ground in Libya" but: Reuters' Mark Hosenball reports that President Obama issued a secret order authorizing unspecified covert support for the opposition to Moammar Gadhafi. Mark Mazzetti and Eric Schmitt of the New York Times add that for several weeks, CIA operatives have been on the ground in Libya, contacting the rebels and gathering targeting information for the air war. Maybe they are wearing sneakers. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:17 AM The news seems to be more solid now and the White House has made an announcement about the "post-Qaddafi era." New York Times article. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: Sawzaw Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:19 AM an octogenarian is a very old octopus. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: BTNG Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:21 AM "Maybe they are wearing sneakers." camouflaged of course |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: GUEST,999 Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:26 AM Yeah. Camouflaged as boots! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: BTNG Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:30 AM heavily disguised as the army boots someone's mother wears..... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: GUEST,999 Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:37 AM AND, that's 'mother' the adjective, not the noun. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: Jeri Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:40 AM I think it's still a noun. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: GUEST,999 Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:57 AM You're right, but a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, and a chrysanthemum by any other name would be easier to spell. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: olddude Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:57 AM covert guys are always on the ground everywhere ... forget what anyone on the news or DOD says .. They are always behind the scenes. They are invisible but there |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: GUEST,999 Date: 20 Oct 11 - 11:58 AM When they stop being invisible they stop being. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: Beer Date: 20 Oct 11 - 12:00 PM Not Sneakers... There called "Hush Puppies." ad. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: open mike Date: 20 Oct 11 - 12:29 PM hey--the topic of this thread is Ghadaffi-- let's get back on topic.. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/10/20/2011-10-20_report_exlibyan_leader_moammar_khadafy_possibly_captured_killed_in_libya.html http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/10/20/2011-10-20_photo_shows_bloody_battered_former_libyan_leader_moammar_khadafy_ntc_claims.html |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: GUEST,999 Date: 20 Oct 11 - 12:42 PM "hey--the topic of this thread is Ghadaffi-- let's get back on topic.." Right away. No problem. Si, si. Your wish is . . . . Muammar Muhammad Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi cleverly disguised as hush puppies. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: Cool Beans Date: 20 Oct 11 - 12:47 PM Buh-bye! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: Bonzo3legs Date: 20 Oct 11 - 12:50 PM No doubt the human rights ninnies will be whinging! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: BTNG Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:29 PM Bonzo stop creating trouble where there is none |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: Bonzo3legs Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:39 PM I'll say what I see fit to say lad. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: Charmion Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:47 PM It would appear that he is, indeed, dead. The Prime Minister of Canada has just announced the imminent closure of our participation in Operation Unified Protector, the NATO arms embargo and air campaign in Libya. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: GUEST,999 Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:58 PM Let's hope it not like the withdrawal of our troops from Afghanistan slated for this past February. Now it's sometime in 2014. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: BTNG Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:58 PM I never did like trouble makers, of any political stripe...laddie... still I wonder if we haven't exchaned one set of evils for another, with support from the west...it's not like it hasn't happened before |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 20 Oct 11 - 02:27 PM Have watched the footage on the TV. I know he was a tyrant etc etc, but I found it quite barbaric shooting a man in cold blood, dragging him onto a truck and watching him die like a dog covered in blood. Why could they not have brought him to justice in a civilised way? It's not that I have any sympathy for his regime, but I've been to Libya before all this started, the people I met seemed so courteous and urbane. Could such barbarism occur here in UK I wonder? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Oct 11 - 02:27 PM Ho hum. Okay, the latest "most dangerous man in the world"....(Oh, Ahhh... Ha! Ha! Ha! Rolling on the floor laughing at that hilarious bit of hyperbole...) ...the latest New World Order media boogeyman extraordinaire who has been selected to temporarily serve as a focal point for everyone's hatred, loathing, and paranoia appears to have met his inevitable end...an end which became inevitable when he was labelled as "the most dangerous man in the world" by the western media. Remember Saddam Hussein? Remember Osama Bin Laden? They're dead too. And the poor and downtrodden are still the poor and downtrodden even though they are gone. It's sort of like "the sexiest man in the world" (you'll see that every year at the grocery store checkout on the cover of People Magazine)...only it's MUCH more dangerous to be the "most dangerous man" than it is to be the "most sexy man"! It almost guarantees a violent demise, accompanied by much USA/Nato military activity, widespread civilian death, lotsa cruise missiles and jets, and massive destruction of social infrastructure in some Third World country. Yup. He's probably gone, folks. It's now time to rub your hands in glee over the elimination of the latest media-manufactured AntiChrist....sit back...have a celebratory beer or two...and start feeling those nagging worries creeping slowly back to haunt you... WHO will be the next "most dangerous man in the world"? WHEN will we find out WHO he is? When will we FEAR the terrible danger his presence poses to our entire way of life!?! When the corporate media tells us WHO he is, that's when. I wonder? Will it be Assad? Or maybe Ahmadinejad? Or maybe someone new whose name we don't even know yet? Just wait! He's coming. You need him. Be afraid. Be VERY afraid. ;-D Get ready for more hysterical media Hoo-Hah and ridiculous hyperbole when he arrives. It's better than the soap operas used to be, and it lasts almost as long. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: olddude Date: 20 Oct 11 - 02:47 PM nothing changes it never does |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM Damn! Now who will the British defence industry sell its weapons to? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: gnu Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:27 PM So, his body double is dead and Quackdaffy, Saddammy and Binny are sipping drinks in an island paradise with virgins servicing them? Nice work if you can get it. And, yeah... bring the troops home? Right. Sure. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:04 PM Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi From: open mike - PM Date: 20 Oct 11 - 12:29 PM hey--the topic of this thread is Ghadaffi-- let's get back on topic.. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/10/20/2011-10-20_report_exlibyan_leader_moammar_khadafy_possibly_captured_killed_in_libya.html http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/10/20/2011-10-20_photo_shows_bloody_battered_former_libyan_leader_moammar_khadafy_ntc_claims.html hmmmm...isn't the NY Daily News a Murdoch paper....? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Oct 11 - 05:37 PM No loss from this point of view... But at least we can stop arguing about how to spell Kadaffi, since it's spelled squiggle squiggle dot dot backwards anyway! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:01 PM Muammar Muhammad Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi مُعَمَّر القَذَّافِي Muʿammar al-Qaḏḏāf |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: olddude Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:15 PM Looks to me like the wound that got him was not from an exchange of fire as stated. However it is still possible ... that looks exactly like a 9mm handgun shot to the head. However his body guards did carry 9MM sidearms so he could have caught one during the exchange. An AK 47 would have taken his head off and the fact that there is no exit wound suggests to me a 9 mm sidearm, that and the size of the entry wound. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:17 PM ahhh the coroners report |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Ed T Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:20 PM Hugo Chavez, only a few weeks ago |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:25 PM I expect the Americans will be looking for a new irritant in the Arab world |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: olddude Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:54 PM Syria for sure ... probably already have eyes on the ground there |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Bugsy Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:27 PM Here's the link to Channel 7 Australia news. 7 News report There's an interesting bit around 1min 26sec where a rebel says, "We shot him, SOMEBODY shot him....." I think he may have engaged the mouth before the brain there. Cheers Bugsy |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:55 PM "looking for a new irritant". Brilliant. No question, that's what Obama needs most right now--another controversial and expensive intervention, with War Powers Resolution redux as a bonus. No wonder folkies have such a sterling reputation as foreign policy analysts. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Bobert Date: 20 Oct 11 - 09:00 PM Another dummie dictator bites the dust... Momar, nomar... Bye... B~ |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 20 Oct 11 - 09:21 PM history dictates that the Americans are always getting up someone's nose over something, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq anyone, they tried Iran, but the Canadians (bless!) had to pull them out of that one. Syria..? hmmmm...oh but wait, they might fight back...nope not Syria, but you never know, the idiot gene might kick in again and then where WILL we be...? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Bobert Date: 20 Oct 11 - 09:31 PM I don't recall the US being the instigators here... Korea??? Yeah... Vietnam??? Yes... Iraq??? Yes... Afghanistan??? Yes... Libya??? Nah... B~ |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 20 Oct 11 - 09:59 PM I didn't mention Libya...hmmmmm...we'll see |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:11 PM "history dictates" Another imaginative folkie. Too bad the grasp of history is not the best. And don't worry, Syria--and your new favorite dictator-- will be safe. Perhaps you don't recall that the Security Council (thanks to absentions by China and Russia) authorized a Libyan intervention. Otherwise Obama was not about to step in. Whether you realize it or not, there was a US election in 2008--perhaps you missed it---and GWB is no longer president. But of course all of that was in a newspaper, and folkies know you can never trust what is in a newspaper. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 21 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM I always got in a muddle with the d's and the f's in Gadaffi (still not sure now!). Seriously, although he won't be missed I was unsure about watching him being hauled out all bloody by a baying crowd many children would have been around at that time watching. Whether that is a good or a bad thing is disputable. On the otherhand if he had been put on trial would he have admitted to knowledge about Lockerbie? Some how I doubt it. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Dave Hanson Date: 21 Oct 11 - 05:37 AM Muammar Gadfly ? Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: David C. Carter Date: 21 Oct 11 - 06:03 AM Goodbye Gadfly David |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Big Phil Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:59 AM Gadafy gone - hooray. The world is a better place without him. Phil* |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Oct 11 - 09:21 AM "abstentions" |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Oct 11 - 09:47 AM Now our oil experts can get back there to ensure a flow of oil - one of our clients is already on his way! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Sawzaw Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:29 AM No trial no report to file. He got what he gave. How could Ghadaffi think it would end any other way? Like Saddam, he could have walked away and avoided it but he did not. What do the Ghadaffi supporters here think should have happened? What would the outcome have been other than death? Even Amos supports sunmmary justice. Let this be a warning to Assad and Saleh, don't do what Saddam did if you don't want it to happen to you. Oct. 21 (Bloomberg) -- A day after the death of Muammar Qaddafi, the United Nations Security Council that authorized bombing over Libya plans action against another despot clinging to power: Yemen's Ali Abdullah Saleh. A vote is expected today on a proposed resolution calling on Saleh to implement a Gulf Cooperation Council-brokered deal, under which he would resign and transfer power to his deputy in return for immunity from prosecution for his family and inner circle. The killing of the Libyan dictator yesterday resonated among the thousands of Yemenis who took to the streets of the capital Sana'a to renew calls for the end of Saleh's 33-year rule. "The end of Qaddafi has given us a strong boost that regardless of how much time our revolt will take, we will win and the fate of Saleh will be like that of Qaddafi," Maher al- Haidari, a protester, said in an interview. Almost a year after the Arab Spring got under way, three autocrats have fallen. Tunisia's Zine El Abidine Ben Ali, fled to Saudi Arabia. Egypt's Hosni Mubarak was carried out in stretcher and placed in an iron cage to stand trial. Qaddafi was killed as he attempted to escape from his hometown of Sirte. Two authoritarian regimes facing widespread international condemnation remain standing. Yemen and Syria In Syria, President Bashar al-Assad has carried out a deadly crackdown against protesters that the UN estimates has killed more than 3,000 since March. In Yemen, there have been protests almost daily since January to demand the removal of the president, a U.S. ally who has held power for more than three decades. Saleh returned to Yemen on Sept. 23 after three months in Saudi Arabia, where he received medical treatment following a rocket attack in the capital. He has asked for increased guarantees from Gulf nations, the U.S. and Europe before agreeing to hand over power. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:30 AM Ron of course an American, or one of their patsies would say that. "It's not our fault." There's a demon constantly in the American view, if it's not one nationality/ethnic group it's another, and dictating to South Africa about its apartheid policies...now that was the height of hypocrisy, or was I only imagining the whites only park benches and restaurants and bus seats.... America needs to tend it's own house before telling others what to do, how to do it, and when to do it Oh right....oil. that's what it was all about to begin with, Gaddafi had out lived whatever usefulness he had to the west, it was time for him to go.....he's gone...and our next villain is a housewife from Coeur d'Alene, Idaho....... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: bobad Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:02 AM "Oh right....oil. that's what it was all about to begin with, Gaddafi had out lived whatever usefulness he had to the west, it was time for him to go" Duh!....Gaddafi was selling his oil to the West....you're really clueless aren't you. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: olddude Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:14 AM Well there are covert special forces that work just for the CIA so maybe they are not considered "US Armed forces" the devil is in the details ya know |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:17 AM bobad name calling is what you're really good at...it is, infact, the only thing you're good at (having had a look through your past postings [god that was a sorry read])..I am VERY aware of what Muʿammar al-Qaḏḏāfī and his cronies were doing....like I said oil was what it was all about from the beginning, despite the murder of PC Yvonne Fletcher, despite Lockerbie........ |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: bobad Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:23 AM Right, the West was getting Libya's oil from Gaddafi so they helped to get rid of him to get their hands on Libya's oil...I get it now. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:26 AM "" "We shot him, SOMEBODY shot him....." I think he may have engaged the mouth before the brain there."" Yes, we got that bit of film on BBC News yesterday morning. The whole thing was "We shot him, SOMEBODY shot him, nine milli" (pointing a finger like a pistol) Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:26 AM I see the Daily Torygraphy are in their and now it can be revealed mode |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:31 AM the torygraph has some amateur video footage supposedly showing Gadaffi's last moments |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,999 Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:34 AM I fail to understand why the death--by unnatural causes as if a 9mm in the brain were unnatural in a hot war--of this guy disturbs anyone. He's just one more who should have been 'sent to a better place' years ago. So now he's there. Let's hope the files of his secret police are opened to the public in Libya so many people can at last find out what happened to their relatives. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:44 AM His actually death bothers me not at all, I'm completely indifferent, infact, just another penny-ante dictator, there's a long line of them. It's who replaces him that bothers me more than anything... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:47 AM I think bobad practices in front of the mirror every morning, nobody, but nobody is that bad....bobad I honestly can't be bothered, if you were worth it, I might explain what I mean in something other than sound bytes, which is basically what this place is all about, but you know, you're not worth, despite what you may think of yourself...now...run along |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: olddude Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:48 AM doesn't bother me at all Bruce, I just would have liked to see a trial that's all but I guess they figured the fighting would continue if he was still alive ... anyway as the Who said "Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss" |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: bobad Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:50 AM If global TV would show - over and over again - the flowing blood, pleas for mercy and death throes of even one of Gadaffi's hundreds of thousands of victims, maybe there would be a better sense of proportion for newsrooms to work with. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 21 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM (They'll stone you when you're in Mudcat, They'll stone you and say that's that) They'll stone ya when you're at the breakfast table They'll stone ya when you are young and able They'll stone ya when you're tryin' to make a buck They'll stone ya and then they'll say, "good luck" Tell ya what, I would not feel so all alone Everybody must get stoned |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Sawzaw Date: 21 Oct 11 - 12:51 PM Libya accounts for only 2 percent of world oil output, countries like Italy, France, and Spain relied on Libya in 2010 for as much as 22 percent, 16 percent, and 13 percent of total crude consumption, respectively a supply not easily replaced on short notice. Europe receives over 85 percent of Libya's crude exports. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 21 Oct 11 - 12:54 PM well according to Family Radio preacher Harold Camping, the world ends tonight (again!) so why worry....? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 Oct 11 - 01:38 PM Oh come on BTNG! You don't really believe that nonsen---------------------------- |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 21 Oct 11 - 01:44 PM Don(Wyziwyg)T you really don't have a sense of humour (humor for our American "friends") do you....unbelieveable.... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:38 PM ""Don(Wyziwyg)T you really don't have a sense of humour (humor for our American "friends") do you....unbelieveable...."" Hark who's talking. Not enough sense of humour (humor), or is it just not enough sense, to understand that I was misquoting a certain US Civil War General who said to his men "Why are you hiding down there, they couldn't hit an elephant at this dis........." All our American friends will have picked up on that without having to have it explained. Sorry mate, there's nothing wrong with my sense of humour (humor) for those who understand subtlety. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:45 PM oops you missed the point again...humour....and my sense of it is just fine thank you very much LOL |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:47 PM Oh sure! If you say so. Don T |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Ron Davies Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:07 AM "demon constantly" . Sure there is. Anything you say. Perhaps you might consider starting to loosen your leftist ideological straitjacket. And maybe even read a book or two. Who knows, you might start to learn something. And realize the world is not full of the comic-book characters you see everywhere. All you'd have to do listen to something other than the voices in your head. At this point, it's obviously not worth anybody's time trying to instruct you in history--though there certainly is a desperate need for that. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Bonzo3legs Date: 22 Oct 11 - 06:28 AM Dead Ghado hanged 3 university students for protesting some years ago. Now all you lefties believe in the right to protest I think, so his shooting is well justified. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Brian May Date: 22 Oct 11 - 04:23 PM Isn't it bizarre, if he'd been taken out (killed) in an airstrike, nobody would have wanted to worry about how he died. But because he so impressed his countrymen that he attacked someone's bullet with his head, they want to check it was all done nicely . . . I really don't get these double standards. His own people are also the ones that suffered at his and his cronies hands. The fact that they probably shot him in a summary execution or whatever should only be viewed as both expedient and honest. Saves any chance of a rescue and removes him from all the bollocks of a sideshow trial. Well done boys! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 22 Oct 11 - 05:18 PM the right wing, the left wing, neither of them work. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Janie Date: 23 Oct 11 - 12:59 AM A lynching of a guilty man is still a lynching. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Brian May Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:00 AM . . . bloody sight cheaper. No doubt about the guilt and I find no problem psychologically supporting the will of the people in this. There was more justice in this than shown in most courtrooms. He had his chance and he chose his road. If more dictators thought this could happen to them, they might not act the way they do. Haul away Joe . . . |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Lox Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:24 AM Gaddaffi was a monster and I shed no tears for him. But the point about monsters is that they contrast from the rest of us non-monsters. If we wish to hold our heads up we should act in a non-monstrous way. That means we, unlike him, don't do or condone arbitrary executions. We think due process is how it should be. So Gaddaffi's dead - boo f****** hoo. But who's replacing him? more monsters? Or democracy and democratic institutions? Not an encouraging start to the new regime in my view ... !! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Brian May Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:00 AM You may well be right, but I doubt they'll be worse. Trouble is 'civilised' society always seems to act in the 'restrained' way and quite frankly 'due process' is treated as weakness by the opposition. At least these potential despots are more inclined to the West rather than being rabidly against. They're not stupid, it's about oil and they know. A period of pro-Western stability is about the best hope - although who would want to follow our model of democracy (a very movable feast), I don't know - it depends upon your viewpoint I suppose. To a starving man a meal of beans on toast would be a banquet, the Libyans at least have a version of freedom none of them have tasted before - and good luck to them. The West's quality will show in the peace, not the war. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Backwoodsman Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:42 AM He got precisely the 'due process' that he himself meted out. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Most of us have no experience of living under, and have never had to take up arms to defeat, a tyrant like Gadaffi, and are in no position to criticise the behaviour of those who have, and who have risked death for their freedom. Had he lived, and if by some strange quirk of fate he managed to return to power (which is very much what the rebels would have feared), he would have murdered thousands in revenge. He got the same justice he was wont to hand out. As the Americans say, "Good Jo-o-o-b". |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: bobad Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:46 AM "Not an encouraging start to the new regime in my view ... !!" Gaddafi was not killed by the "regime", he was killed by an over enthusiastic 18 year old (as is being reported). The "regime", actually the NTC, does not endorse this act, it has stated that it would have preferred that he had been taken alive. Worse things were done in other revolutions like in France for instance and they turned out to be, more or less, civilized. Give the Libyan people a chance to, hopefully, unite their country by common cause rather than by oppression. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Lox Date: 23 Oct 11 - 09:28 AM "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander." Sounds like you endorse a system of Sharia Law then - eyes for eyes, tit for tat, teeth for teeth, and all without trials. Or do you reserve the right to unilaterally decide when those principles apply and when they don't? And if you reserve that right I guess its ok for anyone else right? Including Gaddaffi ... ... In which case there is no moral or logical basis for criticizing him. I personally despise his methods, not becaus they were his, but because they are unilateral authoritarian methods - retribution without trial etc. You stick up for the old regime if you like, I prefer a system of courts etc ... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Charley Noble Date: 23 Oct 11 - 09:48 AM All executions should be banned, including those by predator missiles. However, I certainly do not mourn Gadhafi and I can fully understand how some 18-year old could in the heat of battle execute him. But my preference would have been for an international trial and incarceration for the rest of his unnatural life. People should not be so hasty to condemn a whole society for the actions of a few in a vicious civil war. I still hope that Libya's government does a better job of seeking reconciliation, as did South Africa. Someone needs to learn a lesson from our abysmal experience in Iraq. "When will we ever learn!" Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 23 Oct 11 - 09:54 AM 'Gaddafi was not killed by the "regime", he was killed by an over enthusiastic 18 year old' This, on more than one level, sums up the problem. First of all this ignores the fate of Mutassim Ghadaffi, who by all accounts was taken into custody by the rebel forces (a video of him healthy and smoking in a cell was circulated on Youtube) but somehow someone, we assume over-enthusiastic, wandered in and shot him. Which shows another level of the problem, 'the rebels' are basically a large number of young people, untrained and undisciplined but armed to the teeth, who have just come out of an intense, bloody and brutal battle and a committee, with apparently not all that much control over their fighters. Not a recipe for a smooth transition to a new state. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Brian May Date: 23 Oct 11 - 03:33 PM Revolutions usually aren't a recipe for a smooth transition . . . if that were the case, they wouldn't be a revolution, it'd be a political change of regime/government. Oppress people long enough and they'll rebel. In this age of communication, it seems to be happening more quickly. History tells us that - as well as CNN/Reuters et al My difficulty is I can't really tell the difference between a NATO sanctioned JDAM and an irregular soldier's 9 mm hole. It really smacks of sanctimoniousness. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Lox Date: 23 Oct 11 - 03:41 PM Please Brian - Don't misunderstand me ... ... I would not dare make any claim that NATO were any better ... ... Disregard for western ideals conventions norms and laws is NATO's speciality as are greed and cynicism. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Charley Noble Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:28 PM What we don't get to see on CNN are the oh so nice folks behind the curtains pulling the strings. But what happened was simple justice at its most basic level. Saddam's trial and execution somehow didn't seem to rise to the level of the Nuremberg trials in post Nazi Germany. Anyone else have a favorite trial involving capital punishment? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:44 PM "Anyone else have a favorite trial involving capital punishment?" The on-going trial of OWS vs Wall Street and the Federal Government. Capital punishment at its finest. (Pretty clever on my part, huh?) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Brian May Date: 24 Oct 11 - 07:57 AM Droll, very droll Yep . . . pretty clever ;o) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Ron Davies Date: 24 Oct 11 - 08:01 AM People should stop whining about poor Muammar. We will soon hear details of some of the Libyans he has had executed--among others, virtually all who tried to rebel against him. I wonder what the whiners would have thought if Hitler had been killed in similar circumstances to those of Muammar. Interesting that some of the said whiners also bemoaned the sad fate of Osama. Added to which, I have read that there is no exit spot in his head for the bullet--which undercuts the idea of point-blank range (execution), and supports the idea of crossfire. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Stringsinger Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:36 AM Gadafi should not have been assassinated but tried in a world court as was done in the Nurenberg Trials. This is democracy, habeas corpus and the American way. The same is true for Osama. Targeted assassination aggravate the problem of terrorism and make martyrs out of the executed people. If you put them on trial for the world to see and judge for themselves then you will have world unanimity. Hitler was put on trial at the historic Nurenberg Trials and the world was able to see the injustice that he committed. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Oct 11 - 12:35 PM The world knew about their injustices, SS. The world didn't give a shit. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 24 Oct 11 - 01:56 PM Associated Press - Sunday 23rd October TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) — An autopsy confirmed that Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi died from a gunshot to the head, the country's chief pathologist said Sunday, just hours before Libya's new leaders were to declare liberation and a formal end to an eight-month civil war to topple the longtime ruler's regime. The declaration starts the clock on a transition to democracy that is fraught with uncertainty and could take up to two years. However, international concern about the circumstances of Gadhafi's death and indecision over what to do with his remains overshadowed what was to be a joyful day. Gadhafi's body has been on public display in a commercial freezer in a shopping center in the port city of Misrata, which suffered from a bloody siege by regime forces during the spring. The 69-year-old was captured wounded, but alive Thursday in his hometown of Sirte as it became the last city to fall to revolutionary forces. Bloody images of Gadhafi being taunted and beaten by his captors have raised questions about whether he was killed in crossfire as suggested by government officials or deliberately executed. An autopsy completed Sunday in Misrata showed that Gadhafi was killed by a shot to the head, said Libya's chief pathologist, Dr. Othman al-Zintani. He would not disclose further details or elaborate on Gadhafi's final moments, saying he would first deliver a full report to the attorney general. Most Libyans weren't concerned about the circumstances of the hated leader's death, but rather were relieved the country's ruler of 42 years was gone, clearing the way for a new beginning. "If he (Gadhafi) was taken to court, this would create more chaos, and would encourage his supporters," said Salah Zlitni, 31, who owns a pizza parlor in downtown Tripoli. "Now it's over." Libya's interim leaders are to formally declare later Sunday that the country has been liberated. The ceremony is to take place in the eastern city of Benghazi, the revolution's birthplace. The long-awaited declaration starts the clock on Libya's transition to democracy. The transitional leadership has said it would declare a new interim government within a month of liberation and elections for a constitutional assembly within eight months, to be followed by votes for a parliament and president within a year. The uprising against the Gadhafi regime erupted in February, as part of anti-government revolts spreading across the Middle East. Neighboring Tunisia, which set off the so-called Arab Spring with mass protests nearly a year ago, has taken the biggest step on the path to democracy, voting for a new assembly Sunday in its first truly free elections. Egypt, which has struggled with continued unrest, is next with parliamentary elections slated for November. Libya's struggle has been the bloodiest so far in the region. Mass protests quickly turned into a civil war that killed thousands and paralyzed the country for the past eight months. Even after revolutionary forces captured the capital Tripoli in late August, a fugitive Gadhafi and his supporters fought back fiercely from three regime strongholds. Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte was the last to fall last week, but Gadhafi's son and one-time heir apparent, Seif al-Islam, apparently escaped with some of his supporters. Libya's acting prime minister, Mahmoud Jibril, who has said he plans to resign after liberation, said Libya's National Transitional Council must move quickly to disarm former Libyan rebels and make sure huge weapons caches are turned over in coming days. The interim government has not explained in detail how it would tackle the task. Jibril told the British Broadcasting Corp. in comments to be broadcast Sunday that "at the personal level I wish (Gadhafi) was alive" so he could face questions from the Libyan people buckling under decades of his harsh rule. Jibril said he would not oppose a full investigation under international supervision into Gadhafi's dea |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 24 Oct 11 - 02:28 PM We may as well add this article that, among other things, quotes Human Rights Watch on the case of the bodies of 53 Ghadaffi loyalists found in Sirte, shot : "This latest massacre seems part of a trend of killings, looting and other abuses committed by armed anti-Gaddafi fighters who consider themselves above the law. It is imperative that the transitional authorities take action to rein in these groups." |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Brian May Date: 24 Oct 11 - 02:52 PM Most Western countries have had civil wars. Brother against brother, family members turning in other family, friends fighting, torturing, murder. They're not known for being very civilised. Yet both UK, USA and others seem to think they have the moral high ground because of the conduct of the irregular Libyan forces et al. If what 'we' did in our various wars had been reported by TV, radio and tweets etc, would 'we' come out smelling of roses, or just smelling? For Christ's sake stop being so sanctimonious . . . our troops have done just as badly, through history and probably still do from time to time. The term 'bloody civil war' doesn't happen by accident. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Oct 11 - 02:55 PM Brian, I think you're my long lost brother. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Oct 11 - 02:55 PM "Hitler was put on trial at the historic Nurenberg Trials" Really? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 24 Oct 11 - 03:01 PM our troops have done just as badly, through history and probably still do from time to time. And you think that makes it any less appalling? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: dick greenhaus Date: 24 Oct 11 - 03:20 PM BTW, the Nurenburg trials were a classic example of ex post facto legality. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Oct 11 - 03:42 PM The Nuremberg Trials were a show case for allied governments that damned well knew what was going on in Europe in terms of extermination camps and were quite comfortable letting it happen. That sort of shit does not occur in a vacuum. Same with Ghadaffi. The world knew. It knew. And it did nothing. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 24 Oct 11 - 03:51 PM as you say, 999 the allied governments knew exactly what was going on in Nazi occupied Europe as far as the camps were concerned and did absolutely nothing about it. I had an uncle (since gone to the great court room in the sky) who was on the legal staff at Nuremberg (he was nothing more than a fetch and carry clerk) who said, more than once that the whole thing was a farce based on exactly what you have posted...and as you further say, the same thing applies to Ghadaffi and Libya, so, world spare us your mock horror at "just finding out" you bought the oil knowing full well what sort of man Ghadaffi was...mind you the commercial world also dealt with Hitler and Stalin knowing the same things ; so what else is new? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Wesley S Date: 24 Oct 11 - 04:05 PM ""Hitler was put on trial at the historic Nurenberg Trials" Really?" Well Backwoodman - If you're one of those types that needs facts to back everything up - just check Sarah Palin's website. I'm sure you'll find the references there.... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 24 Oct 11 - 04:09 PM "Hitler was put on trial at the historic Nurenmberg Trials" I don't even think he was tried in absentia, which would have been the only way it could have been done. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Charley Noble Date: 24 Oct 11 - 04:23 PM No, Hitler wasn't around as a defendant at the Nuremberg Trials, but his surviving henchmen were, along with a few other Nazis who were actually acquitted. Goring, I believe, successfully committed suicide after his sentencing via a cyanide capsule. Apparently, some here are not even satisfied with the judgment at Nuremberg. Maybe it all goes back to your potty training or lack of any... Sorry, I'm getting cranky. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Oct 11 - 04:48 PM The statement was that Hitler was put on trial at Nuremberg - I was making the point that that is factually incorrect. Hitler had been dead for seven months when the trials of his henchmen began. So Hitler was not tried at Nuremberg. Re-inventing history to 'prove' an argument is ridiculous. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Oct 11 - 04:50 PM Should have said....."Re-inventing history by 'sleight of words' to 'win' an argument is ridiculous". |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Oct 11 - 04:57 PM "Apparently, some here are not even satisfied with the judgment at Nuremberg. Maybe it all goes back to your potty training or lack of any... Sorry, I'm getting cranky. Charley Noble" Why you hung up on people's potty training? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Wesley S Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:02 PM "Apparently, some here are not even satisfied with the judgment at Nuremberg" Well I for one thought Spencer Tracy was great. I didn't much care for Marlina Dietrich - I thought someone else could have done it better. But overall I'd give it a big thumbs up. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Ed T Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:31 PM Should one place our high western legal expectations on a rag-tag group of people who were cobbled together to fight a cruel dictator, one who has stymied any opportunity for citizens to learn about law, fairness and governance for over forty years? You reap what you sow, Dictator Ghadaffi! Was there actually a fair legal trial opportunity for Osama bin Laden, and Saddam Hussein? Was Bin Ladden not executed? Was the Hussein trial not seen as a "kangaroo court" by most credible international bodies? I suspect few, if any, actually believe Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and Moammar Ghadaffi were innocent of charges. I cannot believe that a "fair" trial (by western standards) would lead to a different result. With revolution, you sometimes just have to hold your nose and hope for a good future. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Ron Davies Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:35 PM "reap what you sow". Exactly. And as I said, we'll see more and more about dissidents executed by Muammar over the past 42 years. Please save some of your sympathy --now lavished on Muammar--perhaps because you imagine he was a "socialist"--for the families of these dead dissidents, who now have at least some closure. And no time or money went into the trial of Muammar. Also, how did the trial of Saddam end? Anybody remember? Why do you think it would be different for Muammar? Added to which, as I said earlier, so far there is no conclusive evidence that Muammar was executed. And some evidence that he was caught in a crossfire. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Crowhugger Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:05 PM Good riddance, although I have mixed feelings about the west's approach. And I'm not exactly confident of the veracity of reported details. Now that it's done, even such a despot probably has some grieving family and/or friends who are missing hime, hard as I find that is to imagine. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Charley Noble Date: 25 Oct 11 - 08:42 AM News from Libya reports that Gadhafi, his son, and his chief aide were buried in an undisclosed desert location. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:05 AM 'In a further disturbing development, images are circulating on the internet apparently showing Gaddafi being sodomised with a stick or metal rod while still alive. The footage was shot on a mobile phone and includes sounds of gunfire and shouts of "Allahu akbar."' article |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:12 AM His death worries me. Or rather, all the preceded it. Back in 2007, Col. Gaddafi was being wined and dined by Tony Blair, hugged in fact. This happened with MANY other world leaders. He had ruled for over 40 years, doing a great deal of good for Libya and Africa in that time, being befriended by Nelson Mandela too. I do not excuse the bad things he did, but, when you start to look into the good things and recognise that these were never disclosed, well, it makes you wonder why. Then, of course, there is the gold dinar. Now, pardon me for being suspicious here, but Gaddafi wanted, was all set, to bring in his new form of currency, to Libya, Saudi and as many African states as he could, in order to unite. He wanted to deal only in his gold dinars, thus eradicating the dollar from the picture. Then, there is AFRICOM, already in place, where the USA is 'deciding' what's best for many African States... Of course, I may have this all arse over whatnot...but......... And then, there is the order already been given for UK firms to make a dash to re-build Libya, get the contracts etc..... So NATO, only two moves away from NAZI on the Scrabble board, goes in there, blackens Gaddafi's name, beyond recognition, forgets all the wining and dining and "Mwa Mwa!" with World Leaders, overlooks the last 40 years of him doing bad things, along with the good..and finally decides that they've had enough... And the Golden Dinar will probably disappear from the face of the Earth now...Gaddafi's way also, of sharing out the wealth of his country....but The Black Dollar will live on, I'm sure...and the Guys in their AFRICOM Uniforms will polish their buttons and breathe a little easier, contact in their jobs for a while longer..... The BBC mshow Snuff Videos of him being murdered...at primetime when the children are in their lounges, across the nation...and close ups of him lying in a freezer are beamed around the planet via our screens, whilst the wonderful Libyan People line up to take photos of him... And eanwhile back at The Ranch of the True Tyrants all is relaxed as new 'leaders' are chosen for Libya, new 'deals' done...and The Bank of The New World Order breathes a huge sigh of relief... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:15 AM Apologies for the errors there...I'm not drunk, honest, just have an 11 week old puppy who seems to run on Duracell batteries! Yawwwwwwwwnn. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:22 AM A list of things you may want to check out....which is doing the rounds in Facebook at present: 1. There are no electricity bills in Libya; electricity is free for all of its citizens. 2. There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law. 3. A home is considered a human right in Libya – Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home.... Gaddafi's father died while him, his wife and his mother were still living in a tent. 4. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family. 5. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is 83%. 6. Should Libyans want to take up a farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kick-start their farms – all for free. 7. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it – not only free but they get US$2,300/mth accommodation and car allowance. 8. In Libya, if a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidized 50% of the price. 9. The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter. 10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion – now frozen globally. 11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found. 12. A portion of Libyan oil sale is, credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens. 13. A mother who gave birth to a child receive US$5,000 14. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $ 0.15 15. 25% of Libyans have a university degree 16. Gaddafi carried out the world's largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country." |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM The speculation and embellished details are going to continue until an official report is released. Let's hope someone takes care of that soon. Mis-information is the handmaiden of the Qaddafi supporters in this instance. New York Times article. The interim leaders, who declared the country liberated on Sunday, may simply have their hands full with the responsibilities that come with running a state. But throughout the Libyan conflict, they have also shown themselves to be unwilling or incapable of looking into accusations of atrocities by their fighters, despite repeated pledges not to tolerate abuse. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:33 AM And then, there was this, reported on a while back now: The United States of Africa - BBC Report You wanna take someone out? Fine. But at least have the guts to tell 'your people' why you're REALLY doing it. Hypocrites R Us rule the day yet again, win 'The War', free 'The People' whilst carrying on ruling the world exactly as they want to see it ruled.....and anyone who crosses their path, good, bad, or a mixture of both gets taken down..down..deeper and down... unless he's called Mugabe, of course...for he has nothing they want...yet...so he's free to keep on killing his own... Simples, huh? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:41 AM What Peter Laban said (twice). The NTC is a fractious (and already fragmenting) coalition of right-minded people, impetuous youth, opportunists and the full moderate-to-extremist spectrum of Muslims. Unlike in some other north African and Arab countries, many in Libya are well educated and had comfortable lives before the war. Among them, and among muslims both in and beyond Libya, are very many who were deeply offended by the aftermath of Gadaffi's capture, not least the treatment of his corpse up to and including burial. For people who like to trough out on vengeance, not a few of whom on this forum live in a country where within living memory innocent people were variously and publicly hanged and burnt to death, the manner of Gadaffi's demise will have been immensely satisfying - reflective of precisely the reptilean brainpower that allows lynchmob law to prosper. They know little about life under Gadaffi's regime except what they have been told by their western leaders (a story which was shamelessly reversed from time to time to reflect the west's immediate interests) and don't care much what kind of chance the new Libya will have after this catastrophic start. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 25 Oct 11 - 10:42 AM The west no more understands the Arab mind today than it did a thousand years ago, mind you the one thing both have in common is the love of money... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The NTC will bear watching very closely for the next while, at this point, I no more trust them than I did Gadhaffi |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 25 Oct 11 - 10:49 AM (a story which was shamelessly reversed from time to time to reflect the west's immediate interests) It's only a few years since Ghadaffi was declared an example for the Arab world, By George W. It's only a few years since guest of honour Ghadaffi pitched his tent at Nicolas Sarkozy's guest palace for five days while spending a few hundred million on products of the French arms industry. When was it again that the British government didn't see a problem organising the rendition of anti Ghadaffi refugees back to Tripoli? Do we need mention the nights with Silvio Berlusconi and Ghadaffi's 'amazons? Do we need go on at all about this? Let's at least not pretend that it has only recently become known the colonel was a vicious madman. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 25 Oct 11 - 12:17 PM "Let's at least not pretend that it has only recently become known the colonel was a vicious madman." Aye but the west was still willing to do business with "a vicious madman" while it suited them...let's not forget that either!! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Oct 11 - 01:07 PM I have to say I care less than I thought I would, but then again, while the Libyans certainly did *some* of the bombings in the 80's, they were practically the only government *not* involved in killing Daddy... *sigh* -I wouldn't have thought I'd be that shallow. Maybe that had nothing to do with it... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 25 Oct 11 - 01:44 PM 'Aye but the west was still willing to do business with "a vicious madman" while it suited them...let's not forget that either!!' Well, yes, that was the point I was trying to make. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:03 PM "The Nuremberg Trials were a show case for allied governments that damned well knew what was going on in Europe in terms of extermination camps and were quite comfortable letting it happen. That sort of shit does not occur in a vacuum. Same with Ghadaffi. The world knew. It knew. And it did nothing." And if you listen to guys like Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul and Stringsinger, etc., doing nothing is the way to go. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: The Sandman Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:14 PM It's only a few years since Ghadaffi was declared an example for the Arab world, By George W. It's only a few years since guest of honour Ghadaffi pitched his tent at Nicolas Sarkozy's guest palace for five days while spending a few hundred million on products of the French arms industry. When was it again that the British government didn't see a problem organising the rendition of anti Ghadaffi refugees back to Tripoli? Do we need mention the nights with Silvio Berlusconi and Ghadaffi's 'amazons? Do we need go on at all about this? Let's at least not pretend that it has only recently become known the colonel was a vicious madman. peter laban , did you know him personally |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 25 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM "And if you listen to guys like Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul and Stringsinger, etc., doing nothing is the way to go. " trading with a bloody dictator is alright by you then is it GUEST? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Brian May Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:06 PM Also, how did the trial of Saddam end? Anybody remember? Suspended sentence wasn't it? It's amazing how the prospect of oil manages to dissolve the calcium in politicians' backbones isn't it? It also affects their skin, this exudes slime. Altogether a very unsavoury combination. All the snivelling around Gadaffi, was for that and perhaps to try and keep him away from the influence of AQ. I really don't think that the west come out of this very well - they run the risk of alienating the very people they say they support by banging on about how Gadaffi was killed. Sodomised with a stick? I really don't care. His henchmen did far worse when they tortured his opponents. Civilised? Why on earth would you expect this to be that? Let's face it, politicians would do ANYTHING to gain their own ends. So the fact Dubya and his cronie Bliar supported him speaks for itself - it shows how discerning they are/were. Now the west will be lining up to rebuild the place (payment in barrels of course). You can imagine Cameron/Sarkozy/Obama elbowing each other out of the way to further their own partisan needs (which after all, is their job). I so hate politics and its purveyors. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Ed T Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:19 PM ""This is the epitaph I want on my tomb: "Here lies one of the most intelligent animals who ever appeared on the face of the earth"" Benito Mussolini quote ""Sometimes democracy must be bathed in blood."" Augusto Pinochet quote ""I want you to know that everything I did, I did for my country"". Pol Pot quote ""Those who fight in God's cause will be victorious"". Saddam Hussein |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 25 Oct 11 - 11:27 PM ""Those who fight in God's cause will be victorious" didn't the crusaders say the same thing? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,999 Date: 25 Oct 11 - 11:50 PM "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." Twain |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Brian May Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:09 AM Guest,999 With that particular quote . . . we MUST be related! What a cracker. Well I won't spend too long supporting my government then. For me, this thread has run its course. Pardon me if I bow out - all in the interests of energy conservation you understand. Have fun |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,999 Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:37 AM Thank you, Brian. I'll be walking out with you. BM |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST Date: 26 Oct 11 - 10:45 AM Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 25 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM "And if you listen to guys like Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul and Stringsinger, etc., doing nothing is the way to go. " trading with a bloody dictator is alright by you then is it GUEST? ------------------------------- Absolutely not! I'm happy we supported the Libyan people in their effort to kill the bloody terrorist dictator. And I support President Obama in killing terrorists like Bin Laden and Alwacko. The Kucinich/Paul crowd would have let Hitler carry on until he got here. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: bobad Date: 26 Oct 11 - 11:11 AM Libyans interviewed by Reuters on Tuesday say they're eager to consign Gaddafi to history, no matter how he died. With every car that drives along the coast road, every tea served in a cafe and every child who toddles down its streets with no knowledge of the huge figure who has just been buried, Tripoli is doing its best to put Gaddafi and his legacy well behind it. "Throw him in a hole, throw him in the sea, throw him in garbage. No matter," Ali Azzarog, a 47-year-old engineer, said near the port, where ships' horns earlier blared their approval of the news. "He is lower than a donkey or a dog and only foreigners say that they care about how we killed him. And they are lying." |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 26 Oct 11 - 11:27 AM we are lying are we...? ok......if you say so Ali, but beware of what you ask for, it could come back and bite you on your ass.. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 26 Oct 11 - 11:35 AM Lower than a donkey or a dog. Not far removed from the mindset that made Ghadaffi think he could exterminate 'the rats' is it? Plus ça change.. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 26 Oct 11 - 11:41 AM still partying in clebtation are you Laban? LOL |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: goatfell Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:43 PM sombody else will take his place That's all folks |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:54 PM You've got that right, goatfell, someone's already in waiting.. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Ed T Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:58 PM ""sombody else will take his place"" Of course! Is and has that not (been) the same for any nation/organization throughout history? However, significant change (good or bad) normally comes from revolution. That does not necessarily mean it will be the same, nor better, nor worse. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: gnu Date: 26 Oct 11 - 04:51 PM "That does not necessarily mean it will be the same, nor better, nor worse." Better for BP. They get to renegotiate. And, this time, they WILL get a better deal. Or there will be more cruise missiles. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 26 Oct 11 - 04:57 PM sure, sure.... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 26 Oct 11 - 07:57 PM Libya's Mustafa Abdul Jalil asks NATO to stay longer The head of Libya's transitional authorities has called for Nato to extend its mission in Libya until the end of the year. National Transitional Council (NTC) Chairman Mustafa Abdul Jalil said the extension was needed to help Libyans trying to control surplus weapons and to deal with Gaddafi loyalists. source - BBC |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 26 Oct 11 - 08:18 PM Would that be the Roy Palmer who edited The Oxford Book of Disco Sea Shanties, with an introduction by Jon Boden? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 26 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM oops previous post was supposed to go on the Singing Songs You Don't Agree With thread LOL :-D |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: gnu Date: 26 Oct 11 - 08:41 PM "sure" ? Yep, fer sure. Just stay tuned. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 26 Oct 11 - 09:12 PM I'll be surprised...sounds like conspiracy theories to me..Oh I've no doubt the oil companies will be right in there...nothing to be done about that, it's a fact of life, but I doubt the threat of further attacks if there's no compliance on Libya's part |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Ed T Date: 26 Oct 11 - 09:49 PM In the early "oil days" Bunker Hunt acquired two libyan oil leases tracts #2 and #65. Because he was in poor financial shape, due to drilling dry wells in Pakistan, he sold a half the interest in tract #65 to BP. In 1961 the largest oilfield in Africa (to that date) was discovered on tract #65. Bunker's half interest in that tract was valued at about $7 billion dollars, making him the richest private individual in the world at age 35. Ghadaffi's coup resulted in oil companies paying a 51 percent royality. Libya, under Ghadaffi, was the first oil producing country to take on "big oil" and win concessions. This was instrumental in the formation of OPEC, and the high oil prices we have today. So, does one suspect the oil crowd was/is sorry to see Ghadaffi go? I suspect they even chipped in a few gold and silver bars somewhere on the sly, to make it happen. It's my conspiracy theory, anyway.:) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Charley Noble Date: 27 Oct 11 - 12:06 AM Just when I was wondering how Roy Palmer related to this thread, BTNG had to come in and post a rational explanation. Oh well. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: akenaton Date: 02 Nov 11 - 01:16 PM Well dont say I didn't warn you warriors! Black Flag of Al Quaeda over Libya |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 02 Nov 11 - 01:48 PM akenaton, akenaton ......oh dear.....anyone, I mean anyone, who considers the Daily Mail to be a reliable source of news, seriously needs their head examining, it's rather like well...News Of The World, isn't it...being a reliable periodical, when we all know the reverse is true. Oh, I suppose the Daily Mail IS a reliable source of news, if...you're right wing wing nut. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: bobad Date: 02 Nov 11 - 01:54 PM These photos were posted on Al Jazeera several weeks ago. I saw a Jolly Roger flying in my neighbourhood recently - I guess that means we're in for it now. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: akenaton Date: 02 Nov 11 - 04:56 PM All will be revealed shortly. Tunisia.....Islamic Party elected. Egypt.......any one want to lay me odds on a secular Party gaining power? Libya.....another basket case.....no one would dare bet against an extreme Islamic govt. Cameron and Sarkosy should be sent to the Hague immediately. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: bobad Date: 02 Nov 11 - 05:19 PM Right Ake, people (especially Muslims) shouldn't have the right to elect their own government, after all look at all the paradises that were and are being ruled by dictators. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: akenaton Date: 02 Nov 11 - 05:47 PM I thought all the death and destruction that we brought to Libya, was in the cause of "freedom and democracy"?......What a sick joke! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: bobad Date: 02 Nov 11 - 06:33 PM An unfortunate consequence of democracy is the election of groups with whom we may disagree. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Ed T Date: 02 Nov 11 - 07:00 PM ""I thought all the death and destruction that we brought to Libya, was in the cause of "freedom and democracy"?......""" Where did you ever get that nieve idea from? If there were no oil, I suspect that few governments involved would care. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:14 PM Right Ake, people (especially Muslims) shouldn't have the right to elect their own government...... I had to read this three times to make sure I'd read it right.... just who the hell do you think you are? You are in no position to judge anyone or anything......... and then I realise...both you and akenaton get your material from the Daily Mail...how pathetic is that? bobad and akenaton separated at birth |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: bobad Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:25 PM BTNG - you really are clueless. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:33 PM only because I don't agree with your narrow, twisted, Daily Mail view of the world |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:34 PM so to be name called by you is harmless...funny in a strange way, laughing at you not with you |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Charley Noble Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:37 PM Steady, lads! By the way I thought I read or head somewhere that it was the "moderate Islamics" who won the plurality of votes in Tunisia. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:47 PM Charley, they did, but to some, unfortunately, Islamics are Islamics terrorists to a person. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Nov 11 - 03:38 AM Was the Daily Mail wrong or right about the flag BTNG? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: akenaton Date: 03 Nov 11 - 04:14 PM Silenced by Keith it seems. Dont think Ive ever seen a "moderate" Islamist? They dont take prisoners, do they? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Moammar Ghadaffi (1942-2011) From: BTNG Date: 03 Nov 11 - 04:39 PM sorry about the delay that akenaton , I actually have to work for a living, seemingly unlike some..who apparently have so much time to post here The flag is there, why is it there? open to interpretation, who put it there, again open to interpretation, even the Daily Mail says that...try actually reading the article at some point...if you can Oh and do try consulting other sources beside The Daily Mail, comparison is always a useful thing apparently even SKY admits to the existence of moderate Islamists apparently even SKY admits to the existence of moderate Islamists as does The Daily Mail memo top some: time to get with the programme |
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