BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash

Subject: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 06:37 PM

I haven't found any mention on Mudcat so far of what would seem to be a radical, and possibly sinister, piece of legislation .

Check it out here

Not being a Louisiana resident, I won't comment further, but I am sure there will be plenty of qualified opinions to come ...

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 06:42 PM

Okay...what if I use barter? I'll give you some meth for that 42" TV?

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 06:45 PM

While I am NOT at all sure of the validity of this article, it doesn't surprise me I'm old enough (174 I think)that I well remember back in the late 80's, there were three small towns in California that decided to try a three month experiment of banning the use of cash. At that time it was driven (I think) by the banking industy to get (force) people to use their banking cards.

I well remember that the experiement was cancelled after only two wks because the merchants were screaming that their money was drying up.

Let's hear it for "social engineering.". bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: gnu
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM

Unreal.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:35 PM

Okay, I steal two shotguns, a 72" plasma TV and the attached home theater setup, and his prize bodhran from gnu, who lives in Shreveport. What's to prevent me from taking the stuff to Arkansas or Texas and selling it?

This is known to lawyers, in technical terms, as a "stupid, unenforceable law."

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:37 PM

The proposal isn't quite as drastic as it appears at first glance, since it applies only to dealers (registered, licensed?) buying junk or second-hand stuff. To be effective, the bill would need a very specific definition of who is covered and I didn't pull the full bill to check that.

Several places, states and/or municipalities, already have requirements that dealers of the kind probably intended to be included must demand positive identification of the seller, and here a "junk dealer" is required to keep a photocopy of the identification (driver license etc) presented by the seller for any purchase over a minimal amount. The ordinance is frequently ignored here, but has the same intent as the effect apparently intended in the LA bill. (A couple of metal salvage businesses here have been fined for failing to get (and keep) identifications, but IMO the fines were paltry.)

Most such regulations are directed at the "copper theft" business, in which malcreants strip the copper wiring out of any accessible place to sell it as scrap. Three or four ball fields in my area have had wiring for the field lights stolen within the past year, at replacement cost of a few hundred thousand dollars per field, and with the thieves making perhaps a hundred dollars for each field at scrap/salvage dealers.

The regulation probably would include "used appliance" dealers, or any others that might "buy" used things that the pawn shops won't take. Pawn shops generally are covered under separate regulations.

Most similar regulations - or regulations with similar intent - suffer from significant defects, inadvertently being applied to unintended things and omitting critically important "outlets" for stolen goods that should have been included; but the intent of the proposed law possibly is valid.

The "check or money order" bit could be a disguised discrimination agains "a certain class" of people, since many "scavangers" who pick up aluminum cans in ditches and parks are unlikely to have a bank account, and thus may find it exceedingly difficult to get one cashed except at the "instant cash" places that will take 20% off the top. A fair percentage of such persons may not have identification adequate to meet the technical requirements of existing ordinances that are fairly common elsewhere.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: pdq
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:37 PM

Just for the record, the idiot behind this bill is a member of the Louisiana House of Representitives.

He is Black and a Democrat.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Genie
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:49 PM

Stupidity knows no party or racial/ethnic lines.

Here's another article about this law: Louisiana Bans Using Cash To Buy Second-Hand Goods

It does seem like this may be another example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.    As this article points out, pawn shops were already required to see and record proof of identity even when being paid in cash - and there is a real question of constitutionality of any law that bans the acceptance of US "legal tender" for purchases.   Using a credit card or writing a check is not necessary for establishing the identities of buyers and sellers and keeping such records.   

Anyway, this would hardly be an isolated example of a poorly-thought-out law or of "unintended consequences."

If the law actually would apply to things like garage sales, Craigslist or classified ads sales, thrift shops, etc., I expect the citizens (and businesses) of Louisiana won't put up with it very long.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:52 PM

Aw, come on folks! READ the thing! All the law does is require that pawn shops and junk dealers pay the people who sell to them by check or EFT. So when some crackhead rips all the copper wire out of a foreclosed house and sells it to a scrap metal dealer, he's gonna get a check made out to him instead of a handful of cash. Hopefully, that'll make it easier for the cops to catch him. It has absolutely nothing to do with any other type of transaction. You can still buy stuff from a pawn shop with cash. The shop just can't pay you in cash. If you see a problem here, please explain it to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:02 PM

The opening sentence quoted says it applies only to dealers when buying junk or ... . Absent further definition that could be in the bill, one is a "dealer" only if a license is required to be one.

The states generally have the right to regulate conditions for doing business within their jurisdictions, and a requirement for making and keeping records is a legitimate function.

Pawn shops won't generally buy scrap metal or appliances, and the bill appears to be intended only to cover such other places as do deal in significant amounts of potentially stolen goods. Pawn shops probably are covered by separate existing rules.

Of course "the devil's in the details" so you'd need to look at the entire bill, which apparently hasn't been done(?).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:14 PM

This is a case of presumed guilty until proven innocent. No bank account--pay a premium to get your money. Sharecropper with no ID--sorry can't buy from you. The list is endless.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:16 PM

I *think* money is legally legal tender, no? Now, I will read the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: pdq
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:38 PM

Cash printed by the U. S. government is indeed "legal tender for all debts, public and private".

Givernment should put enough law enforcement officers on duty to stop crime.

Forcing private businees owners to shoulder the burden is the favorite trick of Democrats.

Save money by not investing in the proper mount of law enforcement

Look at their imigration policy: punish employers who hire illegal alliens.

The place to stop them is on the border and it is the job of the federal government, not the hard-woking business owner.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 11:45 PM

Legal Tender means you cannot refuse to accept a payment made in that form. It does not mean that no other form of payment can be used, otherwise checks, bank drafts, and iou notes (mortgages, loans, etc) all would be illegal. US Coins, incidentally, are not legal tender by law, and you are perfectly free to refuse payment in pennies, although many places have (quite graciously and unnecessarily) accepted ridiculous payments in that kind.

A currently popular witticism(?) from the US TV show Two and a Half men is "never waste an erection."

Those of us of more mature sensibilities might propose the axiom "Don't bother getting a hard-on when you don't have a place to poke it."

I'm seeing a lot of (knee?) jerking in replies here.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 11:45 PM

Wait till something like this happens to your family.

Parents had to move to assisted living and put home up for sale. Jerk breaks in, steals the copper water pipe. Gets a few bucks for it, floods the house, causes $1500 in damage.

And the scrap metal dealer asks no awkward questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 12:31 AM

Everybody knows that so-called "legitimate" businessmen in pawnshops and recycling businesses are a major avenue for fencing stolen goods. This legislation seems like a pretty simple way to make it easy for businessmen to cooperate with law enforcement, instead of collaborating with criminals. Without a law to back them up, it's difficult for businessmen to refuse to pay cash to thieves - with a law, it's easy. Leeneia's parents were missing copper pipe. In the alley next to where I work, thieves cut the ground wires off all the utility poles. No doubt, the "goods" were sold to legitimate businessman. Why NOT require businessmen to create a "paper trail" instead of paying in cash?
Even though the idea came from a black legislator whose color doesn't meet with pdq's approval, it sounds like a pretty good idea to me.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Genie
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 03:01 AM

Of course states and municipalities have the right to regulate conditions for doing business within their jurisdictions, and a requirement for making and keeping records is a legitimate function. But how does that translate into discriminating against people who can't afford to have a bank account or forcing businesses to accept only non-cash payments -- which almost always means the business owner is assuming risks of bounced checks or paying fees to credit card issuers.   
A business doesn't have to accept cash (e.g., if keeping cash on the premises is too risky), but how can the state mandate that the business CANNOT accept what is legal tender?

Crooks can and do kite checks, have fake IDs, use stolen credit cards, etc.   There are other, better ways of separating legitimate business transactions from the fencing of stolen goods than making people deal with bank accounts and credit cards.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:46 AM

A business doesn't have to accept cash (e.g., if keeping cash on the premises is too risky), but how can the state mandate that the business CANNOT accept what is legal tender?

As has been made clear above. They are not restricting what the business can accept as payment, only how they can make payments

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 08:04 AM

If you can't accept cash for second hand goods, the hookers are going to strike and the legislators will NOT be fucked.......or they will be fucked by not being able to get fucked...............or they are fucked over twice.....................aw, fuckit...............



Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:20 AM

Several years ago I bought a small amount of something in a store, and the clerk asked "How do you want to pay for it?"

I joked, "Can I still use cash?"

She replied without hesitation.."Well, I suppose...if you have good I.D."

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: gnu
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 03:00 PM

My "unreal" was about Deckman's post directly above mine.

Here, "dealers" are required to record 2 pieces of valid photo ID before paying cash or before issuing any type of payment for identifiable goods like jewellery, musical instruments, whatever. They must also record a description of such goods, including features, serial numbers...

I am not sure, but I also believe there is a waiting period before certain goods can be resold, an example being jewellery as it can be melted down, thereby destroying identifiable features. Dunno why I think that... perhaps I was actually told this or perhaps it just makes sense? I wish I could buy a new memory at the pawn shop.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 04:46 PM

If you can't accept cash for second hand goods, the hookers are going to strike and the legislators will NOT be fucked.......or they will be fucked by not being able to get fucked...............or they are fucked over twice.....................aw, fuckit...............

The proposed law doesn't appear to ban accepting cash for selling used goods.

It only bans paying cash for buying used goods.

This makes only the buyer a guilty party, and leaves the seller innocent in this transaction.

Several places have attempted other means of "shifting the blame" in similar fashion, thus distressing large segments of the buying public, and making the lawmakers (and enforcers) exceedingly unpopular. (ref Amsterdam or Reno/LasVegas)

But the proposed law only applies to "dealers," so unless one is a licensed procurer doing business by buying and re-selling the used goods it wouldn't appear to apply, so it's an assault on the rights of the pimps to engage in their customary business practices.

Thanks for pointing out that hidden purpose, Spaw.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Genie
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 06:04 PM

Nigel, no one was suggesting that this law requires businesses to accept cash.    I was just pointing out some of what is and is not implied by the term "legal tender."

Requiring a business to accept ONLY checks, credit cards, and other things that require the business or the customer to pay fees for the use of its/their own money is, I think, and unfair burden and one which doesn't really prevent fraud or other illegal activity on the part of either.    If the intent is to have a solid paper trail as to what is bought and sold by whom, that can be done by requiring licenses, identification papers, receipts, etc. - even photographs of the buyers and sellers.   Using a check or credit card does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: gnu
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 06:21 PM

"and leaves the seller innocent in this transaction." Selling stolen goods is illegal, near as I know. No?

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: olddude
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 12:36 PM

didn't the old greenback use to have a statement that said legal tender for all debts public or private ... hmmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:30 PM

As has been said above, olddude, I believe the "legal tender" requirement is that greenbacks must be accepted (if offered) as payment for debt. Whether a business can be required to make payment in another form, is a somewhat separate matter - although it certainly is something that could be open to debate.

The actual text of the Louisiana law is here, although several incorrect "quotations" have been floating around the Internet.

The part that is probably of most interest to this discussion is on page six:

A secondhand dealer shall not enter into any cash transactions in payment for the purchase of junk or used or secondhand property. Payment shall be made in the form of check, electronic transfers, or money order issued to the seller of the junk or used or secondhand property and made payable to the name and address of the seller.
15 All payments made by check, electronic transfers, or money order shall be reported separately in the daily reports required by R.S. 37:1866.

The records must be kept for three years, and made available to law enforcement authorities upon request. There are exemptions for transactions under $25; and for a number of different kinds of businesses, for charities, and for those who purchase secondhand goods less than once a month, and for garage sales. Pawn shops are covered by different laws - they are lending institutions that accept goods as collateral for loans, even though that collateral is often not retrieved. IF a merchant complies with this law, it appears that he can be exonerated from charges of receipt of stolen property - so the law gives a merchant valuable protection.

All in all, it seems to be a fairly reasonable law. By removing an easy avenue for the "fencing" of stolen goods, it removes a motivation for people to steal. PDQ (above) finds this to be an unfair imposition on legitimate businessmen. He also thinks it's unfair to prosecute farmers who employ illegal aliens. I suppose he also thinks it's unfair to prosecute someone who pays a "hit man" to commit murder. After all, these are legitimate business transactions, and nothing should get in the way of poor businessmen who are just trying to make a buck - even if their business enables the commission of a crime.



Click here for comments from a blogger who new regrets having posted a copy of the "viral" Internet message that finds fault with the law.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: pdq
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:47 PM

"I suppose he also thinks it's unfair to prosecute someone who pays a "hit man" to commit murder. After all, these are legitimate business transactions..."

Pretty absurd leap there by Uncle Joe, but I am quite sure he realizes that already.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 10:42 PM

As to the argument that payment by check is unfair to people without bank accounts, the law doesn't say the dealer who issues the check can't also cash it.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 04:46 PM

In the UK you can be prosecuted for "handling Stolen goods"
The type of law suggested could be covered by this type of law

It is backed up by a law that allows police to examine bank accounts and assets obtained by criminal means and confiscate them.
This is known as the "Proceeds of Crime" law this is uesed to deter drug dealers , money launderes and scammers/fraudsters but could be equally applied to scrap dearlers etc and would be easy to enforce because the US recognises entrapment as a legit form of evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:26 PM

Here in the tight little island (especially on a Saturday night) we have a big problem with metal theft, particularly of copper wire. Communities are blacked out by a thief who comes in the day and cuts the thick and tempting umbilici that bring comfort to rural communities; our intensively signalled railways endure long delays due to the removal of the copper- rich communication and control cables by well briefed entrepreneurs. Occasionally they misjudge and are judged, not by we who do not wish to be judged, but by a higher power (11000 volts at 1000 amps).

There is an almost unanswerable case here for restricting non- ferrous metal sales to traceable transactions, perhaps via a state monopoly bank (for this purpose at least). I can see few objections to extending this to Stradivarii or even accordions.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 04:29 AM

In the UK there is currently an Online petition to prevent those buying scrap metal doing so for cash. For the last month it has been highlighted in our weekly church newsletter.

I can imagine the legislation being extended to 'Stadivarii', but it would be stretching the point to include accordions, as this might put the squeeze on legitimate traders.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 01:57 PM

Nigel, you are a rascal.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: pdq
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 03:05 PM

In the US, many poor (or even homeless) people add to their incomes by recycling beer cans

They take the cans to a recycler who pays in cash.

Some parts of the county require an ID. Others requires a signature. Some areas (like mine) are "no questions asked".

No difference whether it is aluminum, copper or silver. Joe Public is presumed innocent until evidence is presented to the cops that he is committing a crime.

Not paying a homeless man in cash eliminates him from selling a commodity that others can sell: those who have bank accounts.

That is unfair, immoral and unconstitutional.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 09:28 AM

Gee, PeeDee, I wish you'd bring that sense of committment & outrage to bear on some ACTUAL violations of Constitutional rights like the PATRIOT act, or the fiction that corporations are "people", etc. etc. etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 10:04 AM

Not paying a homeless man in cash eliminates him from selling a commodity that others can sell: those who have bank accounts.

To reiterate, there's nothing, nada, zero, not a thing in the world to keep the scrap dealer from simply cashing the check for the homeless guy. All the cops care about is that a check is issued with the required information on it. They don't care whether it's deposited to a bank account, cashed at a check cashing place, cashed by the scrap dealer, or used for toilet paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 01:34 PM

The most vicious, brainless thefts are committed by people who are desperate for the cash to get their next drug fix. Stealing stop signs, for example.

My uncle used to live in Wichita. On a visit he told me angrily how someone stole stop signs in Wichita, and a little girl of four was killed in a collision as a result.

I don't blame the authorities for trying to do something about trends like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 10:32 AM

Scrap metal dealers who paid guys in cash for the app;iances, wire and metal torn out of foreclosed homes is the target of the poorly written law.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:12 PM

refresh


ATTN: Joe OFFER

I would like to request that Greg F be permanently removed from Mudcat for going over the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:51 PM

What's that carpet chewing all about bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 03:00 PM

Paul,

Greg F made the following post :
"
"Beardie is also the guy that, in the thread about cash only for second-hand goods, wanted us to know that the sponsor of the bill was a Dumb Ni--er."


Interesting to know that he jusrtified it by
"Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: pdq - PM
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:37 PM

Just for the record, the idiot behind this bill is a member of the Louisiana House of Representitives.

He is Black and a Democrat."


So greggie boy reads "Black and a Democrat" as Dumb Ni--er", as well as not being aware of who posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Max
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 03:07 PM

Breath. Step away from the computer. Go outside and sit on a bench and look at the birds. I'm prepared to delete every post of yours for the rest of the day, so take the rest of the day off, because I have better things to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 03:18 PM

Max, Would YOU let Greg F Post stand undisputed, if he were attacking YOU???

I was answering a direct question in this thread.

Have a good evening, I'm heading home now.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 03:40 PM

Spaw, Are you saying that hookers are "used goods?"

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Max
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 04:04 PM

If they're good hookers they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Max
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 04:12 PM

Just a standing eight count Bruce, for both of you.

In these situations, participants polarize to the point that to a casual observer you turn into the same thing as your opponent. Your "greggie boy" provocations and other verbiage was attacking back. Just like Mom, I don't care who started it, but I expect the better person to be above it and/or walk away from it not turn into a raving lunatic.

It's a folk music forum, relax.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Max
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 04:26 PM

Now to avoid thread creep, I'm inclined to start a thread titled:

Is it OK to say "dumb ni__er" over and over and over again when I couldn't get away with saying "dumb nigger" once?

Nah, too long. Plus, maybe I missed something and it was actually meant to be "nicker". Then I'd just look like a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 04:53 PM

Then there's the Nieper River.....

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 05:12 PM

If it is wrong, it is wrong. For me or for Chris Rock. IMHO.