thumping the floor

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Crowhugger
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM

The OP wasn't objecting to fiddler+stomp or blues+stomp. Perhaps few are bothered by that unless they don't like the music or the particular performer's artistic choices.

I have thoroughly enjoyed performances by John Hartford (at folk festivals) and Stompin' Tom Connors (on TV & radio), and a few lesser known folk festival performers whose names I don't recall. I LOVE percussion totally agree with feet being used to create it. To keep a beat and dance is to be human.

But to my ear that isn't the same issue as overly-loud, monotonous thumping that detracts from storytelling-type songs. (Or someone behind tapping my chair leg.) Musical stomp is consistent--yes, but annoying & monotonous--not as a rule; there is usually varying volume and texture same as any musician would with any instrument. Stompin' Tom's stomp was the least varied of any I've heard, but he never drowned out his lyrics & instruments.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 04:45 PM

Kendall-a member of the audience being annoyed is the PERFORMER's problem.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Crowhugger
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 05:34 PM

Hi Azizi, I missed your post earlier...nice to see you around! I have a question: Why do suppose my Oct 28 post would be taken as tongue-in-cheek on Black Blog? What, we've got so much rhythm we can't choose to be polite about it when it suits the circumstance? It's somehow un-black as a serious remark? I'm mystified by your statement.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: kendall
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:22 PM

Not if he/she doesn't know it, Dick.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: gnu
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:30 PM

Stompin Tom knew he was stompin... it was part of his act... and he made a shitload a money because people enjoyed HIS stompin. There's stompin and then there's Tom's stompin... BIG difference!

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Crowhugger
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:47 PM

True 'nuf, gnu!!

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:53 PM

Kendall--in a way that's our (Mudcat's) job to let the performer know.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:54 PM

Schweik, I think I know what you mean about 'twitching your face." I've seen other people do that. I think it has to do with the brain - when playing complex music, control shifts from the left front, where speech and facial expressions are controlled. Control goes to other part(s) of the brain, with the result that the face can do some very odd things.

I once saw a jazz pianist who tongue came out involuntarily. She would turn away from the crowd to hide it. A jazz guitarist I knew made some very odd grimaces. I think complex jazz causes brain activity to move from its usual hangout in the speech areas to the so-called 'lizard brain,' where hearing resides.

I have something similar. When I play piano, I can't talk.
==============
About the gig with the stomping - I talked to another person who was there and was really bothered by it. Also could not hear lyrics. One person got up and left at the interval. That's too bad when only ten people came in the first place.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Janie
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:56 PM

I love percussion, hand clapping, tapping or stamping out the beat on many, many songs and types of songs. However, unless the percussion is the main event, it is not fun when the stomping or clapping is so loud as to obscure or overpower the voice or other instruments, and certainly, some one else tapping and vibrating my seat is always a distraction, even if no music is involved.

I no longer sing, but when I did, I was definitely a clapper or stomper. When really immersed in the song, it can be easy to not notice the physical environment/accoustics of a place may result in the body percussion drowning out or distracting from the song.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: gnu
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM

Stompin Tom

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Crowhugger
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 10:33 PM

LOL, thanks gnu.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 10:53 PM

Ya'll check out the late Johnny Hartford...

That's what we're talkin' about...

B~

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 07:23 AM

I think Leenia ha a valid point, she has never denigrated the performers music,she just said that the banging spoiled her enjoyment

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 08:06 AM

Sometimes banging is the enjoyment. I'll just get me hat.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Maryrrf
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 10:03 AM

Certainly it's a matter of personal preference - but if it is the duo in question, the stomping did affect my enjoyment of their performance and other people I know(in addition to the ones who commented in this thread) have said the same. The foot percussion doesn't have to go away, just be toned down a little, and it also probably very much depends on the floor surface as to how obtrusive it is. Obviously this duo is successful and, as many have pointed out, they are very good at what they do, but I think some of their potential audience is put off by the heavy percussion.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 10:05 AM

yada yada yada

They drowned out their own words and melody, they made my face bones hurt, they took my money and gave me, not beauty, but stress. I didn't want to walk out because dear friends were the promoters.

If I can keep somebody else from starting to thump so monotonously, well and good.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: bbc
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 11:27 AM

I was surprised at the negative tone of this thread. If we are speaking of Sara Grey & her son Kieron Means, I find their performances delightful, including their foot action. Since there are "footstompin' Scottish music" websites, I assume this can be considered a valid accompaniment to the music they perform. Liking it or not is a matter of personal taste. I remember leaving one folk concert at the intermission, even though the booker was a close friend. I just hated the music; that's fine. Thanks to Vic Smith for his positive posts to this thread. I remember seeing performers at the Greater New Bedford Summerfest, last July, who kept time with their feet & their performances were enhanced by it. To my mind, there's room in folk music for many expressions. Take what pleases you & leave the rest.

Respectfully,

Barbara

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 11:42 AM

I've only heard them together once - have heard Sara on her own a few times. I don't remember any foot-tapping at all. If it was there it was discreet enough not to stand out.

It's quite possible they simply couldn't hear the effect from where they were sitting, if the stage was an echoey box or if the feet were being picked up a mike and the foldback was inadequate.

A Quebecois fiddler who's started coming to a session I go to says it's not unheard of for spontaneous foot-tapping jams to break out on the Montreal metro. That would liven up the commute.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 12:04 PM

I've known Sara for over 40 years and I never noticed excessive foot tapping either. Of course, she can do no harm in my opinion anyway.

I guess my question is, is it really necessary? I've never felt that need, the beat is in my head, not my feet.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 12:51 PM

No discussion on thumping the floor can be complete without a mention of Pete Coe. His fancy footwork while playing melodeon, banjo and bouzouki is not just timekeeping but a whole percussion section. It reaches its peak when he performs Loco Fireman as you can see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuJt6lbt0_g

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Crowhugger
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 12:58 PM

Surprised at the negativity? Me, I'd have been surprised if responses had the tone of, "Oh leeneia that must have been a delightful concert...it's pleasant having an evening of ballads drowned out by performers thumping out the beat with their foot!"

Sure thing, yes definitely, in some music banging IS the enjoyment. Lots of thump is good in work songs, in dance music, even in rocking songs at the start of getting a wound-up child to sleep if not towards the end. But constant thump over a ballad? At best I'd call it an unconventional option that misses the point of story songs.

Maybe I'll offend some of my fellow rhythm lovers out there, but in a ballad the meaning typically is NOT in the beat.

I propose a challenge to those who think the OP is complaining excessively or without cause: Create an evening's repertoire of ballads where the beat is more important than the words and music.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Crowhugger
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 01:13 PM

Pete Coe certainly wasn't thumping out the beat in that video. Looks more like step-dancing. Interestingly, it points out the issue of balance in different way: Unless he stops strumming the footwork is entirely inaudible; the lyrics are only half-audible due to the overbearing strum. Maybe the balance was fine for the live audience and the problem is just with the recording.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Maryrrf
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 01:58 PM

Obviously in this case the thumping worked for some and turned other people off. I don't think it is disrespectful or negative to discuss this on a music forum. If I were the performer, I might want to be made aware that some people thought my foot tapping was too intrusive, and I could then decide whether or not to modify it or leave it as it is. Feedback, positive or negative, is valuable. I would hope this thread wouldn't put anyone off from going to see this duo - they are certainly worth seeing. Go to their next gig near you and judge for yourself.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 08:38 PM

I'm with Leeneia, Crowhugger and Kendall on this. "The Beat is in my head" - keep it there!
Unless it is specifically step-dancing of whatever type (Scottish, Quebecois, East Anglian, Pete Coe) there is absolutely no need for stomping or thumping feet all the way through just about everything anyone plays: it does NOT enhance the music.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 08:46 PM

The floor is an instrument... Needs to be played and heard so that it blends... Stomping because you can is stupid... Respect your instruments powers...

B~

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Jim Martin
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 09:13 AM

I went to a concert Sun night at the Willie Keane Festival in Doonbeg, Co.Clare with Andrew McNamara playing and it was spoilt for me, by what I thought was excessive foot stomping. The sound engineer (Mat Purcell) is well reputed and I'm surprised he couldn't have muted it a bit!

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:44 AM

Stompin' Tom carries his own stompin' board, a piece of plywood which can be seen in the above video. Often fans bring their own boards to his performance and have him autograph them.
A fiddler playing for a dance without amplification would stomp out the beat loud enough for it to be heard by dancers.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:48 AM

I've been playing instruments for 40 years, so here's one last word from me on this topic.

Your body and brain are an intricate, intermeshed system. If you play a piece repeatedly and you stamp your foot, play a drum, or add a bass line, you will probably find that after a while you cannot play it without the embellishment.

Oh, it's easy to say, "Hey, this is just recreational stomping, and I can quit anytime I feel like it." But actually, you can't. You will find that one part of your body has come to rely on another to cue it as to what comes next. As I said, it's all intermeshed.

So as you work up new pieces, ask yourself, "Do I want to do it this way all the time and everywhere?" Because you may find that certain parts of the piece have become "glued together" without you being aware of it.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 02:22 PM

There's no denying that Sara Grey is a foot stomper and it's certainly been noted previously. At this stage it's certainly not under conscious control. I think I've even heard her discuss it before, so it's not that she's unaware that she does it, and I'm surprised that anyone would say they didn't notice about her. There are a few songs that she does that don't have a strong rhythm and that she's more still for, but certainly the majority of what she sings, and especially those accompanied by banjo, have a strong rhythm that comes out in her foot and leg. (And, if she's not playing the banjo, in hand-patting, too.)

Leenia notes that this house concert venue had a particularly springy and resonant floor. (I assume there was no other amplification.) I can see how sitting as close as one does in a house concert that this could be distracting, with the vibration transmitted not only through the air, but to one's seat. It's too bad that some adjustment couldn't have been made prior to the concert to reduce the effect somewhat -- a doubled carpet, or something.

Perhaps Sara and Kieron should be more aware of this issue when they perform in this kind of space. I'd think that a direct communication via the host would be a more effective way to suggest that to them than through a public forum like this, but at least through Mudcat it might alert others who either host them or have a similar performance style...

I hope you have a chance to hear Sara sometime in a venue that works better for you, Leenia.

On the general topic of foot tapping, I was interested to read somewhere that in Cape Breton (or was it PEI?) young fiddlers were/are encouraged to tap their feet as they learn to ensure that their playing is rhythmic. I'm a big toe wiggler or heel lifter, myself.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: meself
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 06:17 PM

In much of Canada - not just in Cape Breton & PEI - it is expected that a fiddler will at least tap/stomp out the beat with one heel or toe, if not do a more intricate kind of clogging. Sometimes it is taught in a deliberate manner.

Check out Donna DeWolfe.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: meself
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 06:20 PM

Btw, notice how the finish is worn off the surface of the stage where the fiddler sits ....

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 01:40 PM

Wasn't there a rabbit called Thumper?

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 02:29 PM

there was, it was in watership down

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 04:06 AM

Nice fiddling but the stamping was annoying.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: gnu
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 06:46 PM

Much as I hate to say so on accounta I really don't like to criticize this young lady or her accompaniest, in this particular video, I agree with Kendall. I thought it was too much. When the stomping detracts from the tune it detracts from the tune... plain and simple.

Of course, there is footwork and there is stomping. Very different. Both have there place. And if they were defined above, my apologies for bringing it up again. My memory is, ah, you know. Right?

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Crowhugger
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 07:14 PM

I didn't find that the foot beat in Donna De Wolf's video overpowered the fiddle, not at all. I did find the piano accompaniment a little too quiet in the scheme of things; I'm not sure if the foot beat contributed to that; it looked to me as if the accompanist did emphasize those beats on the piano, but perhaps not enough, or perhaps it was microphone placement--miking pianos well is an art and science all its own.

A rabbit called Thumper in Watership Down, eh? So I live and learn. But I did know there was one in Bambi.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: gnu
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 07:48 PM

I have desperately been trying to find a link at times for a few days. It's of an Acadian group from NB, NS or PEI... they are amazing... fiddle, guitar, spoons... and FEET! The FEETS are fantastic! They all sit and play and sing and FEET IT! at times. But I cannot remember their name. Seriously... these guys and gals are amazing.

Sandy? Ed T? Beer? Bee? Help!

The ultimate stomper may be Ashley Mac Issac. Yes, he is VERY controversial but germain to the discussion, I believe, if one takes his music at face value. His stomping is one of the styles of his presentation that "plays" the tune to the audience. Yes, perhaps it's "in your face", but I respect the talent and admire the showmanship.

Oh shit... I know THAT ain't gonna sit well with some peeps. >;-)

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 11:35 PM

gnu, I'm guessing PEI's Barachois may be your answer. As for Ashley he is a fantastic musician when he wants to be but his army boot foot stomping act does not fly well at all in Cape Breton. Mostly at home he plays in the traditional style.

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: meself
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 12:17 AM

Once again, Mudcat has reminded me of the effect that differing musical backgrounds have on perceptions - coming out of Cape Breton and PEI fiddling traditions, it never would have occurred to me that anyone would find the kind of footwork that Ms. DeWolfe does in that clip "annoying". Live and learn ....

Subject: RE: thumping the floor
From: gnu
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 11:37 AM

Sandy... ya nailed it. Thanks. Also, Vishten is similar.