BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!

Subject: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 05:54 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bvnOgxd6wo

A Scottish youth had no ticket on a train, the ticket collector ordered him off the train, the youth refused, a passenger did the honours and forcibly ejected the youth from the train - job very well done!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:11 AM

Isn't it illegal to manhandle someone like that?

It really is a shame it couldn't have been handled in a more sensitive way especially when children were there witnessing it all, the swearing and the violence.

Not the sort of video I would be proud to upload to my YouTube channel.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: melodeonboy
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:33 AM

"Isn't it illegal to manhandle someone like that?"

Isn't it illegal to travel on public tansport and refuse to pay? Isn't it illegal to stay on a train after an official of the railway company has told you to get off?

I think justice (albeit rough) was done! I don't have much sympathy for young oiks who take the piss just 'cos they think they can get away with it. Full marks to the public spirited bloke who chucked the little sod off.   

I was chucked off trains a few times when I was young and penniless. The difference is that I knew I was in the wrong and got off the train when I was told to rather than arguing about my "rights"!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:42 AM

In the UK we are not allowed to take the law into our own hands ....... two wrongs do not make a right.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:49 AM

I didn't get chucked off but had the police waiting for me when I got off the train.

I had bought a return ticket but I think I must have dropped it Bangor where I had a drink while waiting for a train and picked up another one as when I showed it to the conductor, it certainly wasn't the right ticket.

Anyway, I'd no means of proving my (admittedly unlikely) story and the conductor was the type who would not even attempt listen.

I paid up and that was the end of the matter.

Except I was fuming. My return journey had been from Llandudno to Rhyl where I had been on a course (and had the papers with me). The only reason I wound up in Bangor was that there was an error on the British Rail timetable. The train I was on did not stop at Llandudno Junction as stated but went straight through to Bangor (and I was not the only one who was caught out by this).

I was late, I'd been forced on a detour I didn't want to make and been forced to pay for the privilege.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:54 AM

(it certainly wasn't the right ticket.)

Although mine wouldn't have been right for Bangor either. It just might have helped my story.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:56 AM

I don't see how it could have been handled much more sensitively other than just giving in and letting the guy travel free. It seems to me that he wasn't going to leave the train of his own free will and by his own volition - and as far as the language goes he was already swearing and as far as I can make out was the only one who was swearing during the episode. He was taking advantage of the fact that the guard was elderly. If you misbehave in a pub or club you get ejected so why should public transport be any different. True enough it's not nice for kids to see but in the long run if more folk were like the big man then maybe people in general would be more free of loutish behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:58 AM

I don't see how it could have been handled much more sensitively other than just giving in and letting the guy travel free.

That's easy. All that's needed (as I found out) is to arrange for the police to be waiting at his destination.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 07:18 AM

You'd then need to know his destination.

Better to have the British Rail police waiting to board the train at the next station - yes I have seen that done.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 07:21 AM

Yep, that makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 07:40 AM

I have recently had to make a train journey to Bristol to help a sick and elderly friend. Even with my Railcard, it cost quite a bit. I don't see why anyone withour a ticket should get away with it. But normally in these situations, as stated above, the Transport Police are alerted and the miscreant is led off, without any fracas on the train. (I too have seen this done twice)

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:09 AM

In the UK we are not allowed to take the law into our own hands ....... two wrongs do not make a right.

Yes, and an enquiry should be set up to find out if the youth has been "abused" as a child, and safeguard his "human rights"......and other nonsense!!!!!!!

Well done the "big guy"!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:18 AM

I don't see how that can happen, at Temple Meads you have to buy a ticket first to be able to swipe through the barrier gate to get on to the platform. There was a time when you could get on a train and pay if it was a short journey say to Weston-Super-Mare but I don't think you can now so I think the problem probably lies with the station where he boarded the train in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:22 AM

Of course no-one should be allowed to get away with travelling without a ticket. In situations like this, though, it's best left to the proper authorities to deal with. Vigilantes are quite often just pure bullies and the situation could easily have escalated into a fight that might have injured innocent passengers. If someone grabbed me, for whatever reason, I'd assume I was being assaulted and deck them without a second thought - and I would be in the right to do so. If, however, a member of train staff was being assualted, I'd always help them.

As a regular commuter I'm often irritated by the number of 'Revenue Protection' people there are - sometimes meaning I have to show my ticket 3 times in the course of a journey. This is especially irksome when trains are cancelled because there is no driver or guard available. It shows the lack of respect many train companies have for their passengers.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:23 AM

Yes, and an enquiry should be set up to find out if the youth has been "abused" as a child, and safeguard his "human rights"......and other nonsense!!!!!!!

Rather extreme measures for not having a train ticket .... lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:33 AM

I actually had the opposite situation the other day. When travelling from my local (unmanned) station to the next town where my season ticket was valid from, I tried to buy a ticket from the conductor but because he couldn't get his machine to work he told me to "forget it". Maybe I sould have thrown him off the train.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:39 AM

They should have threw the guy who filmed it off with him. In cases like this, you take them somewhere quiet and bump into his kidneys, leave him pissing blood for two weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:42 AM

Ah, the Nazi - or is it IRA - approach to social cohesion again.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:46 AM

"As a regular commuter I'm often irritated by the number of 'Revenue Protection' people there are - sometimes meaning I have to show my ticket 3 times in the course of a journey."

I get pissed off when no-one comes along to check my ticket, because that means that some tight-arsed scrote(s) might get away with travelling for bugger-all when I've paid for the pleasure.

Travelling without a ticket is THEFT. Would you people be so reasonable and understanding, so concerned about the offender's rights, if you caught someone picking your pocket or twocking your car? No you bloody wouldn't, so why waste sympathy on someone stealing from the railway operator?

Words like 'double' and 'standards' spring instantly to mind. The bastard got what he deserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:54 AM

But Backwoodsman. No one has suggested he should not have to pay for his journey

One of the things that has been question though is mentality of those who appear to prefer thuggery to allowing the proper authorities handle these matters...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:57 AM

Nobody has said that he should travel free, it just needs to be dealt with properly.

If I had been in that train carriage with children I would not have been happy with all of that going on around me. Also, it is the kind of thing that distresses some people and when they have paid to travel they are entitled to do so in peace.

It could all have been handled in a much better and more appropriate way.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:59 AM

Well, at least in Scotland they were kind enough to stop the train before ejecting the miscreant. That kid's caregivers should have taught him some manners.

As for the following, "Yes, and an enquiry should be set up to find out if the youth has been "abused" as a child, and safeguard his "human rights"......and other nonsense!!!!!!!"

Ya know, I don't know why that remark reminds me of Ronald Reagan in his latter years.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:03 AM

Well, at least in Scotland they were kind enough to stop the train before ejecting the miscreant.

I doubt that the safety systems on the train would have allowed otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:13 AM

Backwoodsman - you missed off the next part of my para, thereby altering the point I was making. Personally, I would prefer it if, instead of employing so many "Revenue Protection" people (in addition to the usual conductor)on a service where 90% of passengers are regular commuters with season tickets, they spent the money employing more drivers and guards so that I get the kind of service that I pay for with my £1300 a year season ticket, instead of being left stranded and having to wait an hour for the next train on far too many occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:13 AM

"Would you people be so reasonable and understanding, so concerned about the offender's rights, if you caught someone picking your pocket or twocking your car?"

That depends. What does 'twocking' mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:15 AM

While I agree that people shouldn't get away with not paying for their fare it does make me wonder if the chap who threw him off the train would have been quite so eager to get involved if it had been someone as big (or bigger) than himself rather than a weedy student type who was easy meat for him to show off against? As someone else on this thread said 'vigilantes are often just pure bullies', he came across like that to me when I saw it on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:15 AM

Car theft. Taking Without Owners Consent (-king).

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:15 AM

Twoc[k] = Take without owner's consent ~~ the legal formula used in a charge of car-stealing, I believe.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:21 AM

"Nobody has said that he should travel free, it just needs to be dealt with properly.

If I had been in that train carriage with children I would not have been happy with all of that going on around me. Also, it is the kind of thing that distresses some people and when they have paid to travel they are entitled to do so in peace."

I can understand that, Eanjay. But I also understand that there are times when a clear message has to be given. What message would those easily-distressed people and children have been given if he had been allowed to continue his journey - that stealing from the rail operators is acceptable?

Sometimes it's necessary and appropriate to make a stand and give a clear message. The distressed and the children would soon get over it. In fact, far from being distressed, most kids would find the spectacle of the criminal's ejection extremely entertaining, in my experience!

Kids aren't anything like as fragile as some might like to suggest, and anyone who believes that their kids are living in an expletive-free world are just deluding themselves - stand outside any school at leaving time and listen to them!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:30 AM

What message would those easily-distressed people and children have been given if he had been allowed to continue his journey - that stealing from the rail operators is acceptable?

Assuming that they were following the "no fuss" version. That the police come along and deal with people who don't pay.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:32 AM

"Backwoodsman - you missed off the next part of my para, thereby altering the point I was making."

That wasn't my intention, Leveller, apologies if I did that.

I was simply trying to make the point that ticket inspection is, IMHO, a very important part of rail-operations and that, far from being an imposition on honest passengers, it is a service that fare-payers deserve, and should insist upon, in order to prevent thieves causing fares to increase at an even greater rate than they already do.

Don't forget, someone travelling without a ticket isn't travelling free - their fare is picked up by the decent, fare-paying traveller in the form of increased fares.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:37 AM

Thank you, gentlemen, for the info on twocking. Never encountered the term before.

In that case, I would likely thank the person for picking my pocket because the haul would be $.37, one pink Bic lighter (don't ask), a used Kleenex with dried snot in it and a flat pick. My other pocket has a hole in it, so I hope he has warm hands.

As for twocking my car: that reminded me of the older fellow who was in the parking lot at the local supermarket. A police officer was writing out a ticket for a parking violation. The old fellow said, "Don't you have anything better to do than harass a guy about his parking?" The officer politely asked the guy to be about his business. The old boy tore the ticket up and dropped a shower of confetti to the ground. The officer wrote another ticket for littering. A brief exchange occurred and it resulted in two more tickets.

I asked the man what the hell he was doing, stacking up tickets against his car like that. He told me he had no car, but since his retirement he'd had to find ways to amuse himself, and his weekly trip to the supermarket facilitated just that end.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:40 AM

"Taking without the owners consent" is a legal method of prosecuting 'joyriders'. These people 'steal'(in most peoples view) cars, drive them around, and then dump them. (and possibly set fore to them to destroy evidence)
As, in the UK, Theft is defined as 'taking the property of another with the intent to permanently deprive the owner' then, if the intention is to dump a car after using it for a while, a charge of 'theft' wouldn't stand up. Hence the legislation on 'twocking'

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:52 AM

A train system that operates out of Montreal with service going to seven or eight areas around the city relies on an honour system. Machines dispense tickets but no one checks them anywhere along the line, no kidding. Instead there are signs that read to the effect that should you be caught without a ticket you will be hauled before a judge and made to cough up $500 (and I don't recall if there is alternate jail time in the event you don't have $500 to cough up). I don't know whether the system works or not, but knowing big cities, I expect there are more than a few people having their rides paid for by the general public.

IMO, this thread has made two points:

1) Prevent the problem by checking passes or tickets before people get on the train. Do that and there is no need for a second provision.

2) Since there are security personnel whose job it is to take care of situations such as the one given in the opening post, let them do their job.

I agree with both.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:52 AM

Can I just set out what the proper procedure for dealing with fare dodgers is (and one which, I assume, meets with approval of the train comapnies): conductor approaches fare dodger and asks him/her to pay; if dodger refuses he/she is asked to get off at the next station; if fare dodger refuses (or if it's a long-distance train)conductor phones ahead and Transport Police are waiting; dodger is arrested/made to pay/prosecuted; no-one gets hurt and train company recovers fare. Perfectly adequate and sensible system until someone inteferes and decides to take the law into their own hands.

So, the double standards apply to those who claim to be law-abiding citizens but rush to support an illegal, stupid and counter-productive action which achieves nothing apart from boosting the ego of some bully-boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:57 AM

Backwoodsman, I think that the police at the next station leading someone off a train gives a clear enough message and is the right thing to do.

The trouble with all this business of people taking the law into their own hands is that it can backfire and innocent 'bystanders' can be hurt. Where do you draw the line with these things?

I would be really cross and fed up if someone stole my car but the number of people who have been injured or killed trying to protect their car gives me a clear message that it is better to let the police deal with these things.

The lad without the ticket was harmless enough but he could easily have had a knife and then what would have happened if things had escalated?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:03 AM

I went looking for a song close to being about this situation and got snagged by this article.

Anyway, the following piece of the song tells ya all ya gotta know about train travel.

Oh well, the Rock Island line
She's a mighty good road
Rock Island line is the road to ride
Ya, the Rock Island line
Is a mighty good road
And if you want to ride
You gotta ride it
Like you find it
Get your ticket at the station
On the Rock Island line

That youth who was so rude to the older conductor should have listened to that song!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:06 AM

1) Prevent the problem by checking passes or tickets before people get on the train.

I don't think that's practical. There are a lot of unmanned and part time manned stations and I'm pretty sure the cost of manning them or equipping them with ticket machines and barriers would far outweigh the cost of any possible loss through fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:11 AM

I give in.

The evildoers have won.

I don't know where you people all live, but where I live there are no police worth talking about, emergency calls take a long time to be dealt with, if at all.

A few years ago, I caught two traveller-types in the act of stealing a satellite dish from a centre I worked in (back when a satellite dish was rare and worth something). They didn't see me, so I quietly went back inside, rang the police and told them that a theft was being committed as we spoke, and that if they got a car there right away, they would catch the offenders in the act. The car arrived...............three days later.

Forgive me if I don't share you lot's enthusiasm for leaving everything in the hands of the Boys In Blue - if my experience was anything to go by, the bugger on the train would be long gone when they arrived.

That's my lot.

Out.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:19 AM

Ya know, I don't know why that remark reminds me of Ronald Reagan in his latter years.

Or Ashcroft, Cheney or Baby Bush in more recent times, Bruce.

And they didn't have advanced senility as an excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:55 AM

A far bigger problem than fare-dodging is cable theft. It happens at least twice a month on the route I take - meaning that trains are cancelled or delayed and NationalRail (i.e. the taxpayer) are losing a fortune.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:02 AM

It seems to me that in cases like this, and like the summer riots, the authorities want Joe Public to stand up to wrongdoers, then if they do they are charged with taking the law into their own hands, then the authorities complain people are passing by and not getting involved. You can't win. "Have a go heroes" are praised, but police say, "don't get involved, you may get stabbed or shot"!

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:09 AM

So what word does one use to describe the action of Fornicating Under Consent , then ??

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:32 AM

It isn't the normal boys in blue who are called to trains. It's the Trasnport police - part of the rail system - http://www.btp.police.uk/ - so comments about squad car 3 days later are ignorant and irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:43 AM

Thanks for pointing out what we all already know, Mr. Head.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 12:02 PM

Sadly we live in the age of the mobile phone camera and CCTV, otherwise this would never had made the news. Dick, when I served in Ulster, there was no anti social crime, you are correct for once.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 01:33 PM

Hmmm... I understood, in this case, the checking of tickets prior to embarking would not have helped as the lad did have a ticket but did not get off at the station he should have and therefore had not paid for the next stage of his journey... no?

Certainly, he should have met at the next stop and and taken in AND that should have been an option given to him. Unfortunately we don't have all the info from a brief video clip. There are a number of scenarios as to why this situation unfolded the way it did. Repeat offender? A setup for a lawsuit? The youth is mentally impaired (which would raise more questions)? Lots of them.

As for manhandling, if the youth had capitulated he would not have been roughed up... especially when he tried to get back on after ejection. Again, I believe it should have been handled as I stated above. Education of the public in regard of the policies and procedures could prevent possible harm to such as the lad, the ejector and bystanders... bysitters?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: MikeL2
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 02:44 PM

Hi

I can't help but think about how things have changed over the past 50 or so years !!

When I was in the RAF I was stationed for a while at Inverness. Coming from Manchester it was a long way and a lot of money to have to pay to get home. So I used to "cheat" by buying a platform ticket at each end to get me off the station. In those days it was unusual to have your ticket checked. This usually worked.

On occasions it did happen and paying the fare settled the issue amicably.

Sometimes as I was traveling in uniform the ticket collector would just say " OK" and not charge me.

On one memorable occasion I had a third class travel warrant but the train was full so I went in the First Class compartment and shared with two Scottish business men. A ticket collector came along and ordered me to move into the Third Class part of the train.

The two men said " No way" and one of them offered to pay the difference for me to stay. Not only that but they then invited me to join them in the Restaurant Car and paid for my meal.

They worked for D C Thomson in Dundee who printed several comics including The Dandy and The Beano.

Yes things have changed !!! Not for the better. !!

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 03:29 PM

That sounds like a lovely time, Mike!

I agree with theleveller. He should have been met at the next station, etc. No one was being physical until the bully stepped in. Anything could have happened at that point, then the liability on the part of the Train Company could have skyrocketed unless, of course, it says on your ticket, etc., that you ride at your own risk, etc..

Anyway, this is one of those things which is being studied and found so interesting by researchers of social media. What responsibility does the "videographer" take on by posting their view of what happened? Or, not? This kind of instant access to the minutiae of daily life on the planet certainly seems to be changing our attitudes and responses, as well as actions.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 04:41 PM

Here we see a ticket inspector handling it incorrectly, and a thug showing off.
he could have been met by transport police at the next station, and as a final resort taken to court.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 05:25 PM

It seems a complaint has been made now.
Click here

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 05:34 PM

Maybe the kid shoulda watched the video.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:07 PM

It does not surprise me that a complaint has been made; all of this could have been avoided.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Bert
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:17 PM

I seem to remember years ago being in the same situation and the ticket inspector gave me a piece of paper (sort of a bill) that I had to go and pay at a railway station.

I hope that this fracas is not a sign of progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 07:04 PM

The "investment banker" looks more like an "enforcer" if ya know what I mean.

Too bad the videographer opted for a million hits instead of a cup of kindness.

...While just the act of
Being kind is all the
Sad world needs.
-Ella Wheeler Wilcox -

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 07:49 PM

Many years ago in the days of card tickets, there was a loose knit band of British steam railway photographers, known as the Master Neverers. It's believed that they got their name from their practice of avoiding paying for a ticket wherever possible - many of them were impecunious students at the time.

The story goes that a John Bull Printing Outfit may have been used to modify the dates on tickets - and exits from stations, other than via ticket barriers, were studied and circulated. At one time there was even a sort of coat of arms featuring crossed ticket punches and a Blue Star (famous UK brewery logo).

Some of them were quite forbidding gents - one in particular would have put the fear of God into the vigilante on the video. He wore his hair and beard very long, sported a flat cap, and the front of his sweatshirt consisted of Newcastle Brown Ale bar towels. He was a roadie for a rock group, and on one occasion was visited by the police over a borrowed potato lorry from Wolverhampton which had been used to chase steam in the north. In fact, had he not existed, Viz Comic would have had to make him, and some of the others, up.

Unfortunately this gentleman died relatively young, but other members and associates of this disgraceful organisation are now extremely respectable retirees, town councillors and some have even met Her Majesty. So I guess it doesn't pay to judge too harshly - leave it to the Railway Police, a fine body of men, some of whom may at one time have underlined numbers in Ian Allan ABCs.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:11 PM

From the link... "He told BBC Radio Scotland's Call Kaye programme: "I was given no time to explain myself. It wasn't even an argument." "There was a discussion with me trying to explain myself for about a minute and then the conductor started shouting at me," he said."

Yes, as stated above, the lad should have watched the video. He does himself no service in his comments. But, it has gone viral on You Tube and there is money to be made. Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:27 PM

But gnu, we don't know when in the proceedings the video recording was started.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:53 PM

Actually, there is a song which tells a story similar to this with an entirely different outcome. It's called Please Mr. Conductor and is in the DT but the third verse is missing.


1. The Lightning Express from the depot so grand had just pulled out on its way
    All the passengers who were on board seemed to be happy and gay
    Except a young lad in a seat by himself reading a letter he had
    'Twas plain to be seen from the tears in his eyes that the contents of it made him sad


2. The stern old conductor he passed through the car taking tickets from everyone there
    Finally reached the little boy's side and gruffly demanded his fare
    "I have no ticket", the little boy said, "But I'll pay you back some day"
    "I'll have to put you off next station", he said but he stopped when he heard the boy say


chorus:

    "Please, mister conductor, don't put me off of your train
    For the best friend I have in this whole wide world is waiting for me in vain
    Expected to die any moment and may not live through the day
    I want to bid mother goodbye, sir, before God takes her away"

3. As mother was ailing before I left home and needed a doctor's care
    I came to the city employment to seek but could not find any work there
    This morning a letter from sister arrived, come home mother's dying did say
    And that is the reason I'm anxious to ride though I haven't the money to pay

chorus

4. A little girl in a seat close by said, "To put that boy off is a shame."
    So taking his hat a collection she made and soon paid his way on the train
    "I'm obliged to you miss for your kindness to me", "Your welcome, I'm sure, never fear"
    Each time the conductor passed through the car these words seemed to ring in his ear

chorus

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 03:02 AM

Do you really think there would be Transport Police at the next station?
Have you ever seen one.

My son kept having his bike stolen from Ware (Hertfordshire) station.
The local police said it was a matter for the Transport Police.
They only exist at the London terminus.
Their interest only extended to issuing crime numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:14 AM

Keith: I have several times seen the Transport Police on trains from Charing X to Strood doing exactly what I described them as doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:46 AM

You are lucky Richard.
I have never seen any.
How many have you seen hanging around stations in-case a dodger is inbound?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:51 AM

Richard, A ten-year-old boy has confessed to killing a boy of four by strangling him with a skipping rope.


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/boy-aged-10-admits-stranglng-four-old-043019043.html

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:56 AM

Keith - I have seen them arrive at Lewisham within 10 minutes and at Gravesend within 20 minutes of the incident that led to their being called. Train waited outside station, and when it rolled in, bingo.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Musket
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:04 AM

Interesting; I have boarded a train twice, having left my tickets either at home or on my desk.

Once, I was wearing my suit, and in first class. I explained to the guard and offered to pay. It was at this stage that I realised where I had left my tickets.. In my wallet which was on my desk, from when I put the tickets in them. (Come to us all eventually.)

He believed me and just carried on. (When I got to our London office, we could reprint my return ticket as we have a rail ticket system on contract.)

The next time this happened, I was in jeans, T shirt etc, and in standard class. I was asked to pay.

Moral? Wear a suit and go to first class as if you deserve to. (East Coast Trains. Crap coffee but guards who recognise class when they see it......)

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Tunesmith
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:11 AM

Richard, and how much did that cost you and I?
And, the train was probably be delayed!
Also, with all the cut-backs, the idea of leaving things for the proper authorities to sort out is going to be more and more problematical as time passes.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:39 AM

From: GUEST,Allan Conn - PM
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:51 AM
Richard, A ten-year-old boy has confessed to killing a boy of four by strangling him with a skipping rope.

V interesting.

& v v v sad.

BUT relevance???

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:40 AM

So well done "the big guy"!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:39 AM

hi Keith

I live in the North West of England and we certainly have railway and transport police here.

In fact one of my friends is a retired railway policeman and through him I got to know many of the officers that travel on the trains and work in the stations.

He tells me that if what happened in Scotland had happened around here he would have expected the Ticket Collector to have contacted the driver by radio and the police would have been notified and the train would have waited for them either on the spot or at the next station.

You don't see them because most of them work in civilian clothes.

But they do exist and according to my friend they are kept very busy.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:41 AM

I stand corrected.
Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:05 AM

I'm a bit puzzled regarding transport police and the regular police.

I had felt sure that the pair (uniformed man and woman) who met me when I got off the train were regular police officers from the police station which was only round the corner from the train station.

Could they have been or must I be mistaken?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 09:06 AM

Interesting question - has the young man had his property returned, since he was prevented from retrieving it by the large person, who seems to have, perhaps unfortunately, the physical characteristics of a bully?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 09:15 AM

I remember some years ago the transport police came to the house to speak to one of my sons because he had been on the embankment with some of his friends, which is of course dangerous. I must say that at first I thought they were regular police officers. Also, I was impressed with them; how they dealt with the situation and what they said.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 10:25 AM

Hi Guest Jon

<"I'm a bit puzzled regarding transport police and the regular police.">


For the uniformed members of the Transport Police the uniforms are very similar and it is not unusual for them to be confused with the "real" police.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=transport%20police&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&sourc

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 10:54 AM

GUEST,999:

You wanted a song on this subject? Here we are, and maybe this thread could be moved "upstairs".

PLEASE MR. CONDUCTOR

The Lightng Express from the depot so grand
Had just pulled out on its way;
All of the passengers who were on board
Seemed to be happy and gay,
Except a young lad in a seat by himself,
Reading a letter he had;
'Twas plain tobe seen by the tears in his eyes
That the contents in it made him sad.

The stern old conductor who passed through the car,
Taking tickets from everyone there,
Finally reached the little boy's ride
And gruffly demanded his fare;
"I have no ticket," the boy replied,
But I'll pay you back some day."
"I'll have to put you off the next station," he said,
But stopped when he heard the buy say:

cho: "Please, mister conductor.
Don't put me off of your train,
For the best friend I have in this whole wide world
Is waiting for me in vain;
Expected to die any moment,
And may not live through the day:
I want to bid mother goodbye, sir,
Before God takes her away."

A little girl in a seat close by
Said, "To put that boy off, it's a shame."
So taking his hat, a collection she made,
And soon paid his way on the train.
"l'm obliged tu you, miss, for your kindness to me
"You're welcome. I'm sure, never fear."
Each time the conductor came through the car
These words seemed to ring in his ear:

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:14 AM

Uncle Dave:

That was also posted earlier by Bev & Jerry @ 11:53 yesterday

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:54 PM

Penny S... "has the young man had his property returned, since he was prevented from retrieving it by the large person, who seems to have, perhaps unfortunately, the physical characteristics of a bully?"

Odd staement. Re the question, why didn't the lad ask for it instead of attempting to get back on the train. Again, we don't know many things. Above, I proposed that the lad could be/have been mentally impaired... giver the video, it sure seems like he was in some way.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 03:52 PM

gnu, for gods sake the lad was perfectly normal doing what lots of teenagers have done who have no money. i can remember doing it 45 years ago.the conductor was an officous twatand the big man a little prick and a bully

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:06 PM

Well, you have a point. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do, eh?

Perhaps making the transit systems free of charge would solve these problems? Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:24 PM

yes, or making it very cheap

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:00 PM

Making it free of charge would promote transit travel use, in turn promoting a more efficient use of natural resources and also result in more trade, albeit "less local".

But... until it is so, I say throw em. Rules are rules. Perhaps a pass could be applied for in certain cases?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:07 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:58 PM

The little bastard had a mouth on him, glad to see there was at least one man with a set of balls on the train. I would have threw him onto the track, forget the talking, action without words works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:08 PM

""It really is a shame it couldn't have been handled in a more sensitive way especially when children were there witnessing it all, the swearing and the violence.""

You might have a point eanjay, were it not for the fact that the swearing, threats and offers of violence were coming from the youth, so taking a sensitive line wouldn't be the best way to stop him.

And according to an ex cop interviewed on TV, the Inspector, by accepting help from a passenger, conferred authority to use reasonable force in rendering that aid.

Whether that is true I don't know, but it seems reasonable.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:22 PM

""For the uniformed members of the Transport Police the uniforms are very similar and it is not unusual for them to be confused with the "real" police.""

It is also quite common for railway staff to eject troublemakers at a station and call the local police to come and remove them, as can be confirmed by watching a few episodes of "Britcops" on TV.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:27 PM

You might have a point eanjay, were it not for the fact that the swearing, threats and offers of violence were coming from the youth, so taking a sensitive line wouldn't be the best way to stop him.

If the conductor had simply got a message down the line to the transport police instead of demanding the guy got off, I doubt the swearing etc. would have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:31 PM

I would agree with that, Don. But I still think he should have been taken of the train at the next stop by some authority in reasonable fashion, even if that included being rougher with him than the volunteer (deputy?).

In my youth, I woulda been on his ass a lot faster than what I saw in the video, but I have "grown up"... to an extent (yeah, I know... ya don't hafta point it out). Once again, there are many details of the entire situation we may never know. And, as I stated above, there could be much conjecture regarding various scenarios... what if he had a knife or gun and was looking to do something nefarious?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:32 PM

Anyway, more on the youth's version of events here

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 08:49 PM

I agree with Jon, if this had been handled correctly it is unlikely that there would have been any commotion, swearing or violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 09:23 PM

there could be much conjecture regarding various scenarios

Indeed. Lets say the youth is telling the truth in that he bought a single for the outward and a single for the return journeys as it was cheaper to do so but the conductor at the start of his travels mistakenly issued two singles for the outward journey.

When he discovers this he realises that he has a problem but believes he can sort it out by explaining to the conductor on the return journey.

Like GSS above, this conductor knows he was "doing what lots of teenagers have done who have no money" so tells him that he a fare dodger and orders him off.

It is at this point he (OK wrongly) looses his cool. From his side the original mistake was not his fault and now on top of that, he being called a liar and a thief.


Of course the truth may be that he had only bought one ticket and that he was abusive even though he knew he was trying to dodge paying...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 07:35 AM

I also start to question the motives of the person who filmed this, this was handled incorrectly, I suspect i may be wrong that the lad is telling the truth.
in these situations the transport police should be called .

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:04 AM

I have no ticket to give you sir
But I'll pay you back one day
Then I'll put you off at the next stop we make
But he stopped when he heard the boy say

Please, Mr. Conductor
Don't put me off of this train

You F#&&****Kin*** A##hol*. I have rights!

heh heh

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 10:50 AM

At the end of the day the little bastard was asked to show a ticket, he refused, he then gave the conductor a mouthful of switchers.

The guy who threw him off the train like so many in the UK today was fed up listening to youths with big mouths and fuck society.

The guy who filmed it should have received a swift kick in the stones and told to erase the footage.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,John Bullshite
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 11:09 AM

If the mouthy kid had started to physically assault the over-officious jobsworth conducter, then yes ,
all that happened on camera might be fair, proportional and justified.

But Big man without doubt waded in too soon and far too aggressively.

Curious how much xmas spirit Big bully man had to drink before catching the train
and who he may have been showing off to and trying to impress?

Big man is very reminiscent of the conservative middle class rugger bugger thugs
who eagerly volunteered to swagger about as stage and dance floor bouncers
at college gigs & discos.

Itching to deal out rough justice on the slightest pretext
to any weedy student types wearing less than conventional clothes and hairstyles.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 11:44 AM

the big bully is now facing court for assult I hope throw the book at him becuase the youth had the correct ticket

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:01 PM

If he had the correct ticket than why did he not produce it for the inspector?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:40 PM

Mike, as I understand it he was given the wrong ticket when he bought it, and did not realise until later

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:45 PM

I think the youth had paid for his ticket but there was a mix up and it does sound as if he spends quite a lot annually travelling on the railway.

He landed on his face when he was manhandled off the train and it looks grazed in the photos. This would not have happened if the railway police had been called.

When the guard was asked "Do you want me to get rid of him for you?" instead of replying "yes" as has been reported he should have said "No thank you, that is the job of the railway police - I will call them".

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:57 PM

lennie Main said his son Sam, 19, landed 'head first' on the platform after being bundled through doors by Alan Pollock after a fare-dodging row.

British Transport Police are investigating mobile phone footage of the incident on a ScotRail train, which has been viewed 500,000 times worldwide.

Mr Main, a 43-year-old salesman, said: 'This big guy has basically thrown him on to the platform. Sam's landed on his face, and has a big graze.

'He's tried to get back in the carriage to get his bag.

'He's diabetic and all his things were in that bag – his medication, his university notes, his money, his mobile phone and his iPod. This man had no right to do what he did. If I was him, I'd expect to be charged.'

An unnamed relative claimed the student had been issued with two single tickets to the same destination by mistake.

The video clip shows the passenger – since identified as a Mr Pollock – intervening when a ticket inspector orders Sam off the train at Linlithgow last Friday because he does not have a valid ticket to his destination, Polmont.

When the student refuses, Mr Pollock offers to 'get him off'.

Sam is seen struggling to get back on board the Edinburgh to Perth service to retrieve his bag, unaware that another passenger has already tossed it off the train. Passengers applaud Mr Pollock, with one saying: 'Cheers, big man.

Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/884716-father-of-fare-dodger-calls-for-assault-charge-after-son-is-thrown-off-train#ixzz1gingxWgM

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:12 PM

All of which is exactly what you would expect the young man AND his family to say, especially if he were a thieving young scumbag with more gob than brain.

None of which proves anything in either direction, except the fact that he did not produce a valid ticket, and was foul mouthed and abusive to a railway employee who was trying to do the job he is paid to do.

All else followed (rightly or wrongly) from that.

My sympathy for him is, shall we say, somewhat limited.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:16 PM

Well, Don, I suggest you re-visit the video. The conductor was behaving very badly, I would not be surprised if he was sacked, he certainly needs some training. The thug that threw him off deserves prosecution for assault.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:26 PM

If the lad had two identical tickets, why didn't he show BOTH tickets and explain what supposedly happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:29 PM

He was on the return trip, he'd already given one of the tickets on the way up.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:31 PM

"He's diabetic and all his things were in that bag"

If the allegation that he'd been drinking is true, then someone in his life had better teach him that diabetes and booze don't mix.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:43 PM

I just feel sorry for the guy

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:57 PM

he wasn't givin the chance

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:11 PM

Sooo... DID he have a ticket and DID he produce it with an explanation even though it was not a return ticket?

Is the price of a ticket from A to B the same price as a ticket from B to A? If so, why couldn't he have explained the the mistake and offered the A to B ticket as payment in full?

As for him not being given the chance, he had the chance to discuss it when he was approached for his ticket. That's just a fact.

Are these tickets dated?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:12 PM

Perhaps he should have mentioned the problem before boarding. When I got back from Rome, I did not have the return part of my train fare from Heathrow because a pickpocket in Rome did. I did, quite by chance, having retrieved it from the hotel bin to use as a bookmark, have the first part (not collected). I approached various staff at various stations en route, and was given leave to travel on the out portion. No problems.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:18 PM

what if it was your son or daughter

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:40 PM

Sooo... DID he have a ticket and DID he produce it with an explanation even though it was not a return ticket?

His version says he had a ticket and tried to explain but we have no means of knowing whether this is true or not.

Is the price of a ticket from A to B the same price as a ticket from B to A? If so, why couldn't he have explained the the mistake and offered the A to B ticket as payment in full?

I think that would depend on the conductor believing you and perhaps whether the system provides a means of doing this.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:09 PM

Believing you? How could he not if the lad had a ticket? Is the ticket not TAKEN from you when you go from A to B?

As far as the "system" having "a means of doing this"... fuck the system, human's override they system when need be. Something just ain't right with this whole story... we need the whole story.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:17 PM

Is the ticket not TAKEN from you when you go from A to B?

Going by train journeys I've made it may or may not be and it may or may not be punched.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:33 PM

Well, Bob Dylan certainly understood things . . .

"Now the senator came down here
Showing ev'ryone his gun
Handing out free tickets
To the wedding of his son
And me, I nearly get bursted
And wouldn't it be my luck
To get caught without a ticket
And be discovered beneath a truck"

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:34 PM

Oh... so it's punched rendering it invalid but is retained by the passenger for claiming travel expenses for business against income taxes or whatever?

It may NOT be punched? That seems odd to me. Perhaps I just don't understand the situation at all and nobody here seems to be able to educate my ignorance.

I still say he should have been taken off the train at the next stop by legal means and the situation sorted out peacefully, by reasonable force if required. I just don't understand why the situation arose in the first place... if the lad had a valid arguement, he should have made it up front and in calm demeanour.

I am now repeating myself and ya know what that means eh?

I'll monitor this thread on accounta I wanna see how things work out but gnightgnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 05:19 PM

'He's diabetic and all his things were in that bag – his medication, his university notes, his money, his mobile phone and his iPod. This man had no right to do what he did. If I was him, I'd expect to be charged.'

Always the same old slow fiddle playing when they are caught breaking the law or exposed as having an attitude to authority

In August during the London riots, the thugs all seemed fit to steal, vandalise and abuse. When caught and brought before a judge, 35 to 40% were either disabled or suffer breathing difficulties or came from problematic homes. Maybe instead of prison sentences they should have sent them on a pilgrimage to Lourdes for a cure.

If he had produced the correct ticket like every other passenger, then there was no problem, he never had the ticket, that is a crock of shit that story about the wrong ticket, it has been one he lifted off a platform.

Three years ago here, two youths stole a bottle of Vodka from a corner shop. On the way out they pulled over a display cabinet. A postman collecting from a pillar box outside caught one of them. The little bastard pressed charges because he cut his hand on broken glass from the bottle he had just stole. Case never got passed the DPP.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: melodeonboy
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 06:45 PM

"what if it was your son or daughter"

Well, as I was a bit of a fare dodger when I was young and penniless (see my post above), I don't think I would castigate my children for trying to get a free journey. I would, however, expect them to accept that it's a "fair cop" if they get caught!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 07:20 PM

I would not have done it in my youth, if caught my father would have milled me, that fear stopped my generation doing a lot of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 08:48 PM

not having a correct ticket cannot be compared to rioting, however lets wait and see, he mat be innocent, he may be guilty, but that is for a judge to decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 03:30 AM

Breaking the law can be compared.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 04:16 AM

"I would not have done it in my youth, if caught my father would have milled me, that fear stopped my generation doing a lot of things."

Well, don't that just explain a lot?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:00 AM

""I would not have done it in my youth, if caught my father would have milled me, that fear stopped my generation doing a lot of things.

Well, don't that just explain a lot? ""

Damn right Silas!

It explains why today's kids have no respect for anyone or anything but their own desires.

They never got the training from their parents that is necessary to instil respect.

Dad's tired and Mum's busy (poor dears), so stick the kids in front of the Telly to watch American shows glorifying violence and attitude.

The World's worst babysitter!!

Anybody who expects to produce self disciplined adults from kids who have never been disciplined is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:12 AM

Just heard on Radio 2 news of a train guard ejecting two young passengers, one of whom came back & stabbed him.

Obviously it was the guard's fault. He should have just ignored them.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:13 AM

Couldn't find it before, details Here

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:14 AM

Well, Don, if the only way you can controll your own children is by beating them, then it's you who has the problem - no one else.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:35 AM

Silas, my father didn't use us as punch bags. If I did something wrong, I got a cuff around the ear. I never got one I didn't deserve.

A lot of kids today have an attitude, influenced by poor role models, parents that don't give a fuck and liberal laws that young people laugh at and abuse.

I never knew the Christian name of one of my neighbours when I was growing up, we referred to everyone as Mr. or Mrs. We respected people older than us, they were adults, we were children.


I have two grandsons that quite frankly could do with a few years in the army. They are lazy, have a fuck you attitude, talk to their parents like dirt and constantly refer to their human rights.


Silas, when I was growing up, I adored that old carpenter who never missed a days work in his life, and that quiet mannered woman who worked as a weaver 10 hours a day. The grandmother who was like a mother to us. Clearly you are not of my generation, that is your loss.

Silas, respect starts in the home.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:41 AM

Yes, Bluesman, I quite understand. Your father used to physically abuse you and obviously this has affected your own attitudes in adulthood, perfectly understandable.
Thank you for sharing it with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:53 AM

No Silas,that isn't the case at all. Alan Whittle once said here "I should consider an adult literacy course" I did, I did it through my speech and language therapist after a small device in a Kennedy's Bakery bread wrapper left at a school gate removed part of my brain and left eye. Don't judge until you know the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:00 AM

I am not judging - the fact that I consider beating children to be insane and you find it acceptable is not a judgement call.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:11 AM

Salis, no one should beat a child, I do not consider a cuff around the ear as GBH.

A lot of young people today abuse the law and abuse society because they have no respect for anything, that is my view.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:22 AM

"I do not consider a cuff around the ear as GBH."

Well I do. One mans 'cuff around the ear' is another mans punch in the head. What exactly is a Cuff around the ear anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:30 AM

I'm horrified at the change in young people's attitude and their view of their place in society (ie Very Important) since the end of WW2. They are all that Bluesman says of them. I agree with him that discipline in the home (including a smack for bad behaviour) is what's needed. It isn't 'beating children' don't be silly. A smacked bottom never caused any lifelong trauma to any child, but it DID instil good manners, self-control and acceptable public comportment. A lot of people probably don't remember a time when children called neighbours etc Mr or Mrs. I do. We were also allowed to call close neighbours 'auntie' or 'uncle'. How can anyone prefer the situation nowadays, rudeness, swearing, children utterly out of control? No-one is suggesting whipping or abuse, just a smack if needed. And no-one should give any child the idea that the world revolves around them and they should have anything that takes their fancy. If you do, you'll get youths thinking they don't have to pay to board a train, you can get drunk or pregnant whenever you like, you can be idle and live off the State etc etc etc. It depresses me.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:31 AM

I don't know how the threads got here but I see nothing wrong in smacking a child.

Leaving punching or other wise "beating up" aside, I believe the most important thing is a feeling of fairness and understanding why.

Maybe that's because of my own childhood. I was in the situation for example where if something went wrong my father would have the rule he would "investigate" and eldest would be punished first (ensuring I always copped for everything) but if I knew a brother had done something and told my father, the original "crime" would be forgiven but "tell tales" must be punished, etc.

Believe me, the mental stuff leaves a far more lasting impression than being hit.

Of course this could be administered by a "non smacking" parent. But I bet many would see a smack as being far worse...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:45 AM

Well I see 'smacking' or beating children to be a massive failure on the part of the parent. It's just too easy and a lazy way of controlling children.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:51 AM

Well Silas, you saw the results in UK cities last August.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:58 AM

No I didn't. I saw a lot of people rioting. What has that to do with this? Are you saying that none of these people were given a 'cuff around the ear' or that they were?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:02 AM

Well Silas, you saw the results in UK cities last August.

I don't believe the riots can possibly be pinned down to any single cause although I would place social injustices higher on the list than home upbringing...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:04 AM

Parenting (I use the term loosely!) nowadays is about as lazy as you can get. It seems to consist in letting the children do whatever they like, buying them whatever they want and allowing them to swear roundly if thwarted. Smacking isn't a lazy way of controlling children. It's a moral duty. To control them at all is now unfashionable. You should see West African children, they are models of good behaviour, respectful, responsible, obedient, attentive and honest. They don't whinge, throw tantrums, or swear. Any behaviour like that is dealt with by a quick smack, and would never be tolerated. I'm ashamed of our children; even on the Continent we're a laughing stock among the Germans and French etc at holiday resorts. The relevance to this thread Jon is that no young lad should even contemplate not having his ticket, or resort to swearing and creating a fracas when challenged. His parents obviously subscribed to the lax school of upbringing!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:05 AM

Yes Jon, social injustices against those who work hard for a living, build up a business and respect the rule of law, they are always the victim.

In my day if you would have smashed windows in your own town or city, attacked police and burned out high street shops they would have had you certified and put into a mental institution .


I recall in my youth those that broke into someone's home or a shop had to leave the town when they were released from prison because of the shame, now they hold parties for them !

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:09 AM

Here we go...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:11 AM

I will say again, if the only way you can control your children is by beating them then you have a serious problem - what message does it send out for christs sake? Just think about it before you hit your keyboard again.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:17 AM

I don't know any children being beat up, if I did I would report them.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:22 AM

The relevance to this thread Jon is that no young lad should even contemplate not having his ticket, or resort to swearing and creating a fracas when challenged. His parents obviously subscribed to the lax school of upbringing!

We don't actually know whether or not this young lad had bought a ticket...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:43 AM

There is a young woman living in my area. She has a selection of children to various absent fathers. The three oldest boys appear in juvenile courts on a regular basis as reported in the local press. They never seem to get anything more than a slap on the wrist.

They treat our garages like B&Q stores, generally abuse everyone and know the rule of law inside out. Passing their property you receive the usual greeting of "who the fuck are you looking at".

They actually featured on a television show about anti social behaviour.

The oldest boy drove the mothers Mobility car through a neighbours garden wall and ran off. (mother got car because she claims to be an alcoholic) She claimed she left back door open of her home open and someone stole the keys, not her son.

New car replaced within three days, the son enjoys relative fame for this actions among his friends.

Some here will probably say we failed them.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:47 AM

Oh Bluesman, you seemed to have missed out the words 'Black' and 'Asian'

You do not get a 'mobility car' because you are alcoholic - never heard anything so bloody daft in my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:55 AM

What has it got to do with racism, Silas? I fear you are spouting absolute rubbish. If you don't know the difference between child abuse and reasonable parental chastisement for misdemeanours, then YOU are the one with the serious problem, Matey.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 08:02 AM

No 'Matey', not at all. Bluesmans attitude is bordeing on a rant and if you can't see where he was leading, well....

One mans 'reasonable parental chastisement' is another mans whipping with a leather belt, I'm surprised that someone as obviously intelligent as you are can support this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 08:25 AM

Silas, that was uncalled for. Would a mod please remove that post in which Silas called me racist. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 08:33 AM

Sorry for thread drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:14 AM

I called at a garage in Warlingham Village before snow stopped my journey yesterday, and whilst driving into a space next to a petrol pump I suddenly saw a white van (it had to be!!) backing into the same space. I backed out and stepped out of my car. I appologised and said that I didn't expect someone to be backing into that space - to be net by a barrage of threatening verbal abuse from this young man.

I was forgetting of course that foul mouthed aggressive white van man has priority - I spoke to a lady on the adjacent pump who could not believe this young man's attitude - but it's so typical.

I think we need some trench warfare to cull that generation!!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,cat
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 11:09 AM

Even other members of the, so called lower animal world have better
command over their offspring than do a lot of modern human parents.
Members of the cat family being a good example Do we have a lot of
traumatized cats out there other than those ill- treated by human scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 11:14 AM

bonzo, what is the relevance of this generalIsation.
I must point out that I had a similiar experience tO bonzo in 1975, except that i was physically assaulted and very nearly lost an eye, the guy was charged with actual bodily harm, and got off with a 15 pound fine, sonme crap about his wife having a miscarriage
six months later he followed my van and threatened me again.
this guy was of my generation , in fact maybe five to ten years older he would now be about seventy.
so, road rage is not a new phenemonen, and is not exclusive to the present younger generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,John Bullshite
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 11:53 AM

I think one thing we at all points of the UK political spectrum from far left to far right may agree upon,
is our frustration with and disdain for
sanctimonious judgemental middle class 'new age' lifestyle liberals.

They are cosseted by economic & cultural good fortune from the hardships and harsh realities of social existence
as experienced my most of the rest of us,
whilst wielding disproportionate influence for their well meaning but unrealistic child behavioral theories
within the media and State policy making institutions ???

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 12:15 PM

Since the 1950s we have allowed manners to disintegrate. Media has not helped. Nor have too many parents. To me, good manners are what could have averted the entire episode. From all the people involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 03:51 PM

And then we get this. Bastards.

Ticket inspector stabbed on C2C train from Southend to London British Transport Police have released these CCTV images of two men they want to interview
A ticket inspector has been stabbed on a C2C train travelling from Essex into London, prompting an investigation by British Transport Police (BTP).

The attack at East Tilbury happened on the 20:20 Southend Central to London Fenchurch Street service on Friday.

BTP said the inspector had asked two men without tickets, aged about 18, to leave the train. They got off, but one returned and stabbed him in the back.

The inspector, 42, received three stitches to the wound.

He was expected to be able to leave hospital later on Saturday.

Officers are now looking through CCTV images and are appealing to any passengers on the train who witnessed anything to contact them.

One of the suspects wore a black hooded top and the second a grey flat cap and grey top.

The police force said there had been four ticket inspectors on the service at the time of the stabbing and that they worked in pairs.

Bob Crow, general secretary of the Rail Maritime and Transport union, representing many railway workers, said anyone with any information should contact police urgently.

"Once again it shows the dangers that transport staff face every day and particularly over the Christmas and new year period.

"The perpetrators of this vicious and cowardly assault must be caught and the authorities need to show that those who attack public service workers will be severely punished," he said.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16229921

Time to get really tough with the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 04:31 PM

I think the majority of people here agree that parents should take more responsibly and teach their children to respect authority and the rule of law.

There are a number of influences and role models out there that have a lot to answer for.

All our thoughts with the guy who was stabbed.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 04:46 PM

I find the sweeping generalisations that are being made here incredible. I am in the UK and as a teacher I have met many, many wonderful young people and responsible parents.

The ticket incident was unfortunate and none of us know the full details. However, whatever was right or wrong with how it was handled by the ticket inspector and whatever was right or wrong with the response from the young man .... none of that excuses the actions of the person who forcibly removed the young man from the train. Some people are, on the one hand, condemning the young people of today as thugs etc. but are, on the other hand, applauding thuggery in this incident - it does not make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:25 PM

exactly, eanjay, furthermore, the stabbing incident is irrelevant to the case being discussed, the youth who was thrown off the train.
I totally agree that the violent stabbing of the ticket inspector is appalling, but it illustrates how violence gets a reaction of violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 11:56 PM

"but it illustrates how violence gets a reaction of violence"

Asking someone to leave a train, theatre, play, concert, etc., because they don't have a ticket is not violence. Stabbing someone is violence. I fail to see how the former deserves the response of the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 12:12 AM

Indeed, Bruce. I suspect Dick had momentarily confused & conflated the two incidents, the original Youtube and the reported stabbing ~~ hadn't you, Dick?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,cat
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 05:46 AM

train stopped for 10min. while ticket collector carries out the duties he was paid to do by asking thief to leave.Other passengers on train hear this foul mouthed yob berate elderly man over this period of time and one comes to the assistance of the collector and ejects the thief from the train, another passenger puts the yobs bag out beside him. Yob picks up bag and tries to reboard train, now claims this was to retrieve his bag with sob story about medicines
being in the bag. Check video and see yob has bag in hand when trying to reboard train--end of story---liar and thief.

had ticket collector given in and allowed the train to proceed no doubt someone would have reported this to his employers and that may have cost him his job.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 06:35 AM

had ticket collector given in and allowed the train to proceed no doubt someone would have reported this to his employers and that may have cost him his job.

If, rather than engaging in confrontation, the conductor had a message passed to the transport police he wouldn't be giving in and letting him get away with it. There could be no valid complaint.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: goatfell
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:29 AM

where you lot on the train

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 09:57 AM

Harrumph harrumph, maybe if the Train Operating Companies employed a few more people on their trains, eg both a guard (brakesman, not security) AND a ticket inspector, the gripper might have a bit more backup.

It's not a great job at the best of times. These days made IMHO much worse by the machinations of the TOCs, who fine people e.g. for getting off a train early. Apparently because "the ticket is cheap (hah!) because you can only take one train between two unalterable destinations - didn't you read the 86 pages of terms and conditions on the Internet?" Then we all wonder why passengers, sorry customers, get a bit irate with the poor sod with the ticket punch!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 11:51 AM

I certainly understand the views of almost everyone who's posted to this thread.

Regarding the guy who ejected the youth: he's lucky the kid wasn't trained in any of the 'arts' or he'd have been carried out by an ambulance crew. The problem with violence is that there's always someone tougher, faster or just plain better. Strikes to the throat, plexus groin and knee and he's down. Takes about three seconds to do and there's nothing left but the crying.

Jon and eanjay are right: it should have been handled by the police. But suggesting that the kid was Mr Innocent just makes no sense. He's fortunate just to have received an abrasion on his cheek, because of his cheek.

Goatfell: no, I wasn't on the train. I did however watch the video.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: goatfell
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 12:16 PM

so did I

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 12:21 PM

yes, I too have watched the video and agree with Goatfell.
I wonder if the two people who stabbed the railway employee, also watched the video.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: goatfell
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 12:21 PM

what has happened to love of yor fellow man as it says two wrongs don't make a right

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 12:31 PM

Well, I see that we have a possible explanation for "Bluesman"'s irascibility.

A civilised society does not permit or encourage vigilantism. It requires due process.

If it be a fact that a part of the explanation of the youth is contradicted by the video record, that reduces his credibility - to be taken into account as part of that due process.

The entitlement however of the company employee would not be more than to use reasonable force. I am not clear that he could delegate that entitlement. It is dangerous for the TOC to assert that he could, for in that case they will have vicarious liability for the delegated parts of the employee's duties, if there is liability for what the officious bystander did. The officious bystander could not derive authority to use greater force than the employee had the right to use.

The injury to the youth may well indicate that excessive force was used. The officious bystander would (I submit) clearly be under what Lord Denning would have caused "the activity duty" which sounds in negligence. Did the officious bystander take reasonable care to avoid injuring the youth?   It seems unlikely.

It will of course be simple for the TOC to check its records to see whether two identical single tickets were issued for the journey in question at the time and place that the youth says his were issued.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 01:10 PM

"yes, I too have watched the video and agree with Goatfell.
I wonder if the two people who stabbed the railway employee, also watched the video."

GSS: I no longer understand what you are referring to. This thread is about a kid who was ticketless on a train. He got tossed off the train.

The stabbing is a different incident. So I can understand you, would you please be a bit clearer as to what you are talking about?

As for Bluesman--a fellow I now call Blues--yes, he is irascible. Unlike me, he is sometimes a pain in the arse, but a few days back I saw a side of him that made me re-evaluate some former preconceptions. There are a few things on which he and I will never agree, but that said, he ain't all that bad. The kind of guy you'd like to have on your team when stuff gets rough.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 01:40 PM

yes , 999, but arthitis brought up the the other case.
I dont know why he brought it in because it is, as i pointed out earlier irrelevant, its only relevance might be if the stabbing youths watched the other video on you tube., and decide to copycat.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 01:43 PM

here was the post
Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Arthur_itus - PM
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 03:51 PM

And then we get this. Bastards.

Ticket inspector stabbed on C2C train from Southend to London British Transport Police have released these CCTV images of two men they want to interview
A ticket inspector has been stabbed on a C2C train travelling from Essex into London, prompting an investigation by British Transport Police (BTP).

The attack at East Tilbury happened on the 20:20 Southend Central to London Fenchurch Street service on Friday.

BTP said the inspector had asked two men without tickets, aged about 18, to leave the train. They got off, but one returned and stabbed him in the back.

The inspector, 42, received three stitches to the wound.

He was expected to be able to leave hospital later on Saturday.

Officers are now looking through CCTV images and are appealing to any passengers on the train who witnessed anything to contact them.

One of the suspects wore a black hooded top and the second a grey flat cap and grey top.

The police force said there had been four ticket inspectors on the service at the time of the stabbing and that they worked in pairs.

Bob Crow, general secretary of the Rail Maritime and Transport union, representing many railway workers, said anyone with any information should contact police urgently.

"Once again it shows the dangers that transport staff face every day and particularly over the Christmas and new year period.

"The perpetrators of this vicious and cowardly assault must be caught and the authorities need to show that those who attack public service workers will be severely punished," he said.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16229921

Time to get really tough with the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 01:45 PM

999.
here was my response, perhaps if you read posts you might understand
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:25 PM

exactly, eanjay, furthermore, the stabbing incident is irrelevant to the case being discussed, the youth who was thrown off the train.
I totally agree that the violent stabbing of the ticket inspector is appalling, but it illustrates how violence gets a reaction of violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 02:06 PM

But suggesting that the kid was Mr Innocent just makes no sense.

I'm not sure about "Mr Innocent" but we do not have any evidence to say whether or not he was dodging his fare. His version says he bought two tickets and the video neither supports or disproves this.

What makes no sense to me are the suggestions that has to be guilty of fare dodging. I'd have a similar problem with a position that asserted he must be innocent of this.

To me, either would seem to be based more on personal bias or prejudice than any facts we are aware of.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 02:09 PM

Richard, we live in a society in which a sizable number of people no longer respect authority. A lot of the younger generation receive no guidance from parents, some of which may be down to the break down of relationships or immature parenting.

This youth could of explained he had no valid ticket, if this was the case, he was in the wrong. If he had the wrong ticket, he could have asked for understanding. In the video I saw neither. He became verbally abusive, he showed no respect for age or authority.

The guy who removed him was most likely pissed off listening to him rabbit on to some old guy the same age as his dad.

Have you ever stood in a line of people and listened to someone abuse a receptionist in a hospital or GP surgery, post office or shop ?

I have, and yes I did become involved. I told them politely to either clean up their mouth or I would become their problem. I am not a hard man or street fighter, but I take no shit of anyone or stand for it either. I would get out of my bed at 3 in the morning to do anyone a good turn, but if someone pulled a stroke on me, I would get out of bed at the same time to do them a bad turn.

We are of the same generation Richard, if you are receiving more respect that most, fair play to you, Medway must differ from Hereford.

999, you have my respect and gratitude, not only as a man, but as an accomplished naturally talented artist.

We must all agree, the conductor was within his rights, the youth was definitely problematic.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 02:19 PM

We must all agree, the conductor was within his rights, the youth was definitely problematic."
no, [imo] the conductor should have contacted the transport police and he should have allowed the train to continue to the next station, he should not have allowed a member of the public to throw   the youth off the train.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 02:29 PM

"We must all agree" - only to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 02:52 PM

With such respect as I can muster, Bluesman, authority must earn its respect and it does not do that by not listening or by acting irrationally.

We do not know whether the youth did in fact buy two tickets or not. His credibility is I gather diminished if the video shows he had his bag that he was saying he was trying to get off the train (unless by that time he was concussed and confused).

You are making an assumption.

The youth's case is that the inspector was obdurate and unlistening. I find that very credible having heard the way they conduct themself at London Bridge station bullying people whose first language is not English and who could easily have misunderstood the Oystercard scheme for use between metropolitan stations.

If the vigilante was "pissed off" then he was exactly the wrong person to "assist" the inspector. If he was intervening, at the very least he should have behaved rationally and reasonably.   It seems very doubtful that he did so.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 03:13 PM

This youth could of explained he had no valid ticket, if this was the case, he was in the wrong. If he had the wrong ticket, he could have asked for understanding. In the video I saw neither.

The video recording begins after the person who made it became aware there was a disturbance. The youth may (or may not) have tried to explain his situation politely before it was started.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 03:54 PM

Some of the comments on here about how the youth was the victim must have been written while on a substance or the victim of too much cider. The person was travelling without a valid ticket, refused to pay for the journey, and told a staff member in full view of customers to fuck off.

Well done to the bloke who got him off the train. It is the soft touch tactics that has made this country look a laughing stock when it comes to punishment for crimes. I would have done the same. Some youths think that they can do what they like, when they like and to who they like. It's about time the law abiding citizens fought back.

Did you notice in the video, the youth claiming that he showed the ScotRail employee his 'fucking ticket' while a group of stunned young children sit close by with their mother in shock. The conductor asks him to stop swearing, only to be told to "fuck off".

As for those who throw away their receipts, that's got to be the worlds thinnest argument! You do need to keep your ticket when travelling to be checked by staff, everyone knows that without producing your ticket, you can't travel.

Have you ever tried to board a plane with no ticket? You wouldn't get very far. Same goes on a train. If he had lost it 'by mistake' as he claims, he should still abide by the rules, apologise for the mistake and got off. It isn't the train companies fault that he 'threw the wrong ticket away'- If they took his word for it, they'd have to do the same for everybody, and no-body would ever pay!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 04:39 PM

well, the truth will come out in due course.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 04:42 PM

Well, actually, I once flew to the Venice Film Festival with a client only for the client to discover on arrival that his passport was expired - and he blagged his way (in Italian) past the immigration officials. I was very impressed.

The other thing about that trip was that we were booked into the Danielli - Bozo will probably know about that hotel.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 05:23 PM

His ticket wasn't out of date though.I know the hotel Richard,took photographs in it. My budget break hotel was a bit of a distance from Saint Mark's square.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:26 PM

""Well, Don, if the only way you can controll your own children is by beating them, then it's you who has the problem - no one else.""

Crap!!

You don't have to hit kids to discipline them, and if the only way that you can justify your argument is to claim that a smack constitutes a "beating" I'm sorry for you.

I smacked my son just twice, when he was about three years old, by which time he already knew the rules he was expected to obey, and I never had to do that again. My daughter never needed a smack and therefore never got one.

I spent massive amounts of time with them, as did my wife, and we were never too tired to sit and work with them.

By the time they went to primary school they were both able to read and to count, as well as write their names. We backed any disciplinary actions the teachers had to take, rather than threatening them with violence, though such occasions were very few.

I never had a cop knock on my door, nor any neighbour or shopkeeper complain of their behaviour. They never skipped school either, and both went into successful careers, daughter as a nurse, currently doing a degree course and bringing up three kids, son with a double first at Uni working as Head of the Art Department at a large boys school.

What do I think is the basis of good discipline?

When a small child misbehaves and the adults watching say "Aaaww, isn't that cute?"..........Well actually NO!! It isn't cute, it's wrong, and that is the response the child should receive.

It might seem a small point, but it can have huge repercussions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: goatfell
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:39 PM

thank you

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 03:12 PM

Hmmm... I'mmmm baaaack... for a minute.

"The video recording begins after the person who made it became aware there was a disturbance. The youth may (or may not) have tried to explain his situation politely before it was started."

I (have) contend(ed) that IF he HAD done so, this shit would not have happened.

I (have) contend(ed) that IF he HAD a valid ticket, this shit would not have happened.

If he was issued an invalid ticket, he is still at fault for not checking the ticket to see that it was a valid ticket. I don't pay a cashier whatever they ask without making sure the correct prcice was charged for all items I purchased. And I don't try to leave the store without paying for all the items.

Arguing about why the lad was in the position he was in is pointless. He fucked up. He shoulda got off... and learned his lesson.

Once again, it was not handled correctly. But, like I also said... well... you read it.

Sorry to come back and interject once more, but, gee whiz.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: fat B****rd
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 03:27 PM

Good points -IMO- Gnu. How come none of the other passengers haven't,apparently, made their views public?. Maybe I've simply not seen them.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 06:00 PM

You check the ticket you are given? And read the terms and conditions?

I don't believe you.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 06:11 PM

Whether he should have checked his ticket or not is irrelevant. It should have been sorted out by the railway police and not someone throwing his weight around.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 06:52 PM

Okay... one last time... Ricky... if you don't check what you buy and the price of it, YOU are unbelievable. As for the terms and conditions... that is a ridiculous complication of my arguement. Sheer assinine stupidity which you have attempted to disguise as an arguement which has no validity with regard to what I posted.

eanjay... WTF? Why are you repeating what I said so many times?

Do any of you read the previous posts or even YOUR own before you post them? Or are you just so full of yourselves that you can't debate the basics of a discussion without serious thought and compassion for the people and the situation being discussed and for the other readers and posters?

Fuck me!

I am definitley gnightgnu. Have fun with it.

BTW... got change for a three dollar bill?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Mississippi Saxaphone
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 04:06 AM

Problems like this one on trains should be dealt with by the British Transport Police NOT members of the public.

The railways are a unique policing environment with a unique set of needs. British Transport Police's 2,835 police officers and 1,455 support staff exist to provide a specialist policing service to meet those needs.

Taken from

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Mississippi Saxaphone
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 04:10 AM

Not used to links. I'll finish my post here.

Taken from here.

Unique policing environment not an every man and his dog policing environment. I doubt that the person who manhandled the youth had the skills and training that the British Transport Police have.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 04:30 AM

gnu ~ nobody is repeating what you said. If you post on these threads then you must expect people to respond. If that upsets you then the answer is not to post in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 05:08 AM

""""""Well, Don, if the only way you can controll your own children is by beating them, then it's you who has the problem - no one else.""

Crap!!

You don't have to hit kids to discipline them, and if the only way that you can justify your argument is to claim that a smack constitutes a "beating" I'm sorry for you.

I smacked my son just twice, when he was about three years old, by which time he already knew the rules he was expected to obey, and I never had to do that again. """"


Hmmm. "You don't have to hit kids to discipline them" And "I smacked my son just twice" in the same post? Beating, Smacking, Belting, Cuff aroumd the ear, its all the same pal, you are physically abusing children - it is not the way forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 05:22 AM

Nonsense, Silas. Read Hegel, on the tipping-point where the quantative difference becomes a qualitative difference: a clip round the ear or a smack on the bottom are not the equivalent of 100 lashes of the knout. If you really can't see the distinction ~ tough titty.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 05:46 AM

Michael - you and I may well be able to make a distiction between a 'corrective slap' and a full blown beating, sadly, there are many people who can't. This is why the phrase 'reasonable force' is so ambiguios. If you really think that everyone has the same quantative values you really need to go and have a lie down.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 05:53 AM

It is argued that using force - of any degree - to train a child teaches that force is a legitimate argument - precisely the problem that we see in feral subcultures.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 05:54 AM

The last post from guest Silas is not from me - it is bluesman up tio his silly games again. He has already had three posts removed from this thread.

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This most recent "guest,Silas" post was removed, as were others. It is not permissible on Mudcat to appropriate someone else's identity. ALL posts from a computer involved in such behavior are subject to removal.
-mudelf mod-

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 06:02 AM

""Michael - you and I may well be able to make a distiction between a 'corrective slap' and a full blown beating, sadly, there are many people who can't. This is why the phrase 'reasonable force' is so ambiguios. If you really think that everyone has the same quantative values you really need to go and have a lie down.""

So you think that you know enough about MtheGM and me to label me as a child beater while anointing him with the lofty position of having as much intelligence as you.

Mike, you have my sympathy (though I absolutely believe that you are more intelligent than that).

Silas, you are a pompous, arrogant ass.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 06:05 AM

Don you have already said that you hit your children, you have labelled yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 10:13 AM

it is irrelevant to this thread whether or not people beat their children, the fundamental issue here is innocent until proved guilty, therefore the transport police should have dealt with the matter, it is not the right of some little prick who thinks he is a big man to interfere.
if the lad was guilty then he should be punished by the courts.
I made a point in another discussion that I was not surprised that some youths throwing rocks at cars ended up with a crossbow in their stomach, i did not say it was right to fire a crossbow, what i said was I was not surprised by the violent reaction to mindless violence. if someone came into my house and tried to attack me, i would defend myself,i would attempt to overpower the attacker with violence, it is not necessarily right in the eyes of the law, but it is a natural instinct.
however this lad did not attack the railway employee or physically assault him, therefore it was wrong for the passenger to throw him off the train.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 09:12 PM

The latest I've seen on this is that

"the big man" has been charged with assault

and the youth "has been reported under Section 38 of the Criminal justice and Licensing Act Scotland, and in connection with an allegation of trespass". which I guess means "no ticket"?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16288101

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 09:56 PM

It seems to me the authorities do not believe (and while I do not know (I'd guess modern ticket machines do record and can be queried) the youth had bought two tickets.

But gnu:

Okay... one last time... Ricky... if you don't check what you buy and the price of it, YOU are unbelievable.

According to the youths story and if it was me..

The first question that I think would cross my mind goes before that. That is having worked out two singles were cheaper than a return. would I have bought both singles in one go or bought the second on the return journey. Personally, I think I'd be more inclined to get the ticket purchases over and done with but I could vary...

Assuming I'd bought two, say one going to jonland from gnuland and the other returning me to jonland from gnuland and I had paid the expected fare, I think my only concern for the outgoing journey would be that I presented the "jonland to gnuland" ticket. I'd just take it for granted that the other ticket was the return.

But that's just me...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 09:57 PM

missed name above

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 10:06 PM

to jonland from gnuland and the other returning me to jonland from gnuland

To gnuland from jonland and the other returning me...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 05:17 AM

*sigh* People, can you remember that the plural of anecdote isn't data, but generalisation? It's like saying "The last 3 times the roulette wheel landed on black, so it therefore must land on black every time". You seem to be saying that all students are mouthy and disrespectful and conveniently forgetting that there are people like me who fit the student bill but aren't mouthy or disrespectful. One might go down the route of "They're being mouthy because you're being mouthy as well"

OT: The "Big man" committed assault, the conductor could have handled it better and the boy was in the wrong for not saying "Fine, I'll buy another ticket". Same thing has happened to me before, and I just gave in. And in August when everyone was trying to use their student railcards which had expired, everyone just gave the ticket inspector lip. That was nice of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 05:25 AM

"the big man" has been charged with assault and the youth "has been reported under Section 38 of the Criminal justice and Licensing Act Scotland, and in connection with an allegation of trespass".

If the law had been allowed to deal with this in the first place then nobody would be on an assault charge.

I wonder what guidelines conductors have. How many times they are required to ask for a ticket before they move onto asking someone to leave the train and how many of those before they are required to radio for assistance from the railway police. I suppose if people travelling on the railways are made aware of these things then there isn't the same temptation to interfere.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 05:36 AM

I'm surprised that "The big man has been charged with assault" as 'assault' is the threat of the use of force. Once you lay hands on someone it becomes 'battery'.
At least, that is how I recall the terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 06:05 AM

As a matter of civil law yes. In terms of specific offences, no.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 07:29 AM

If they try the guy, it will make him even more of a folk hero. Probably counter-productive.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 08:53 AM

Which one?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 09:11 AM

great news about the big bully that he is charged, I wonnder would he have done it if it was an elderly pesrosn or a pregnaant woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 09:18 AM

an elderly pesrosn or a pregnaant woman would probably not have been travelling without a valid ticket.
And if they were, then I doubt that they would have ended up swearing at the ticket collector who was just doing his job!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 12:45 PM

I don't physically assault my son. Does this make me a bad parent? Does that make him a bad kid? I don't think so. There really is some sanctimonious claptrap on this thread. And people who think that riots and poor behaviour amongst *some* young people is a new thing have clearly got a rubbish grasp of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 12:47 PM

"an elderly pesrosn or a pregnaant woman would probably not have been travelling without a valid ticket."

Utter bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: goatfell
Date: 23 Dec 11 - 09:59 AM

everyone makes mistakes

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 23 Dec 11 - 10:25 AM

Well let us all leave it and allow a judge to decide, we should accept some view the incident differently, no point in us getting angry with each other, I doubt our input will be called upon.

Regarding discipline of children within the home, some feel it is acceptable, others such as Silas view it as harmful. I accept and respect that Silas finds it abhorrent.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: goatfell
Date: 23 Dec 11 - 11:54 AM

I agree guest blueman

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Dec 11 - 08:14 PM

"an elderly pesrosn or a pregnaant woman would probably not have been travelling without a valid ticket."

Utter bollocks.

Silas. If you wish to quote me, please do so in context.
What I said was:
an elderly pesrosn or a pregnaant woman would probably not have been travelling without a valid ticket.
And if they were, then I doubt that they would have ended up swearing at the ticket collector who was just doing his job!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Catastrophe
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 04:56 AM

Our teenage daughter was using her student railcard for the first time this summer while on a work placement in London. One evening she rang me in tears. She had the photo bit of her railcard, and a valid ticket for her journey, but was missing another part of the railcard. She explained to the conductor that she hadn't realised she needed the other part of the railcard and would be sure to take it he following day. The conductor shouted at her, humiliated her in front of the entire coach and made her feel like a fare dodger (despite having a valid ticket for the journey), and confiscated her student railcard. My daughter tried to explain that this would invalidate the tickets her parents had bought for the rest of the week and the woman replied, smiling, "Next time maybe you'll travel with both parts of your railcard." Fortunately the following morning, the staff at the station were very understanding, apologised for the behaviour of their colleague and re-issued her railcard so she could use the tickets we'd already bought.

As a result I would not pass judgement on this case until I knew what had taken place before the filming started. Sone rail staff are complete idiots, who love the power of that little ticket puncher in their hand. We made a formal complaint about the jobsworth cow who seemed to get her kicks from humiliating a teenage girl. We got a letter telling us action would be taken but they can't tell you the outcome. I dearly hope she was sacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Silas
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 06:23 AM

"an elderly pesrosn or a pregnaant woman would probably not have been travelling without a valid ticket.
And if they were, then I doubt that they would have ended up swearing at the ticket collector who was just doing his job!"

Utter bollocks

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: bruceCMR
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 07:02 AM

I'm surprised that "The big man has been charged with assault" as 'assault' is the threat of the use of force. Once you lay hands on someone it becomes 'battery'.
At least, that is how I recall the terms.

Not under Scots Law.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 08:21 AM

Mudcat appeared to eat up my comment (probably shouldn't just do a link in future). Anyway!

This one's for you two

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The slanderous bickering between the two people has been deleted, but this comment and link saved.
-mudelf mod-