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BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: DrugCrazed Date: 27 Dec 11 - 08:21 AM Mudcat appeared to eat up my comment (probably shouldn't just do a link in future). Anyway! This one's for you two
-mudelf mod- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: bruceCMR Date: 27 Dec 11 - 07:02 AM I'm surprised that "The big man has been charged with assault" as 'assault' is the threat of the use of force. Once you lay hands on someone it becomes 'battery'. At least, that is how I recall the terms. Not under Scots Law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Silas Date: 27 Dec 11 - 06:23 AM "an elderly pesrosn or a pregnaant woman would probably not have been travelling without a valid ticket. And if they were, then I doubt that they would have ended up swearing at the ticket collector who was just doing his job!" Utter bollocks |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: GUEST,Catastrophe Date: 27 Dec 11 - 04:56 AM Our teenage daughter was using her student railcard for the first time this summer while on a work placement in London. One evening she rang me in tears. She had the photo bit of her railcard, and a valid ticket for her journey, but was missing another part of the railcard. She explained to the conductor that she hadn't realised she needed the other part of the railcard and would be sure to take it he following day. The conductor shouted at her, humiliated her in front of the entire coach and made her feel like a fare dodger (despite having a valid ticket for the journey), and confiscated her student railcard. My daughter tried to explain that this would invalidate the tickets her parents had bought for the rest of the week and the woman replied, smiling, "Next time maybe you'll travel with both parts of your railcard." Fortunately the following morning, the staff at the station were very understanding, apologised for the behaviour of their colleague and re-issued her railcard so she could use the tickets we'd already bought. As a result I would not pass judgement on this case until I knew what had taken place before the filming started. Sone rail staff are complete idiots, who love the power of that little ticket puncher in their hand. We made a formal complaint about the jobsworth cow who seemed to get her kicks from humiliating a teenage girl. We got a letter telling us action would be taken but they can't tell you the outcome. I dearly hope she was sacked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 23 Dec 11 - 08:14 PM "an elderly pesrosn or a pregnaant woman would probably not have been travelling without a valid ticket." Utter bollocks. Silas. If you wish to quote me, please do so in context. What I said was: an elderly pesrosn or a pregnaant woman would probably not have been travelling without a valid ticket. And if they were, then I doubt that they would have ended up swearing at the ticket collector who was just doing his job! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: goatfell Date: 23 Dec 11 - 11:54 AM I agree guest blueman |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 23 Dec 11 - 10:25 AM Well let us all leave it and allow a judge to decide, we should accept some view the incident differently, no point in us getting angry with each other, I doubt our input will be called upon. Regarding discipline of children within the home, some feel it is acceptable, others such as Silas view it as harmful. I accept and respect that Silas finds it abhorrent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: goatfell Date: 23 Dec 11 - 09:59 AM everyone makes mistakes |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Silas Date: 22 Dec 11 - 12:47 PM "an elderly pesrosn or a pregnaant woman would probably not have been travelling without a valid ticket." Utter bollocks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Spleen Cringe Date: 22 Dec 11 - 12:45 PM I don't physically assault my son. Does this make me a bad parent? Does that make him a bad kid? I don't think so. There really is some sanctimonious claptrap on this thread. And people who think that riots and poor behaviour amongst *some* young people is a new thing have clearly got a rubbish grasp of history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 22 Dec 11 - 09:18 AM an elderly pesrosn or a pregnaant woman would probably not have been travelling without a valid ticket. And if they were, then I doubt that they would have ended up swearing at the ticket collector who was just doing his job! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: goatfell Date: 22 Dec 11 - 09:11 AM great news about the big bully that he is charged, I wonnder would he have done it if it was an elderly pesrosn or a pregnaant woman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Dec 11 - 08:53 AM Which one? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: GUEST Date: 22 Dec 11 - 07:29 AM If they try the guy, it will make him even more of a folk hero. Probably counter-productive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Dec 11 - 06:05 AM As a matter of civil law yes. In terms of specific offences, no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 22 Dec 11 - 05:36 AM I'm surprised that "The big man has been charged with assault" as 'assault' is the threat of the use of force. Once you lay hands on someone it becomes 'battery'. At least, that is how I recall the terms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 22 Dec 11 - 05:25 AM "the big man" has been charged with assault and the youth "has been reported under Section 38 of the Criminal justice and Licensing Act Scotland, and in connection with an allegation of trespass". If the law had been allowed to deal with this in the first place then nobody would be on an assault charge. I wonder what guidelines conductors have. How many times they are required to ask for a ticket before they move onto asking someone to leave the train and how many of those before they are required to radio for assistance from the railway police. I suppose if people travelling on the railways are made aware of these things then there isn't the same temptation to interfere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: DrugCrazed Date: 22 Dec 11 - 05:17 AM *sigh* People, can you remember that the plural of anecdote isn't data, but generalisation? It's like saying "The last 3 times the roulette wheel landed on black, so it therefore must land on black every time". You seem to be saying that all students are mouthy and disrespectful and conveniently forgetting that there are people like me who fit the student bill but aren't mouthy or disrespectful. One might go down the route of "They're being mouthy because you're being mouthy as well" OT: The "Big man" committed assault, the conductor could have handled it better and the boy was in the wrong for not saying "Fine, I'll buy another ticket". Same thing has happened to me before, and I just gave in. And in August when everyone was trying to use their student railcards which had expired, everyone just gave the ticket inspector lip. That was nice of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: GUEST,Jon Date: 21 Dec 11 - 10:06 PM to jonland from gnuland and the other returning me to jonland from gnuland To gnuland from jonland and the other returning me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: GUEST,Jon Date: 21 Dec 11 - 09:57 PM missed name above |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: GUEST Date: 21 Dec 11 - 09:56 PM It seems to me the authorities do not believe (and while I do not know (I'd guess modern ticket machines do record and can be queried) the youth had bought two tickets. But gnu: Okay... one last time... Ricky... if you don't check what you buy and the price of it, YOU are unbelievable. According to the youths story and if it was me.. The first question that I think would cross my mind goes before that. That is having worked out two singles were cheaper than a return. would I have bought both singles in one go or bought the second on the return journey. Personally, I think I'd be more inclined to get the ticket purchases over and done with but I could vary... Assuming I'd bought two, say one going to jonland from gnuland and the other returning me to jonland from gnuland and I had paid the expected fare, I think my only concern for the outgoing journey would be that I presented the "jonland to gnuland" ticket. I'd just take it for granted that the other ticket was the return. But that's just me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: GUEST,Jon Date: 21 Dec 11 - 09:12 PM The latest I've seen on this is that "the big man" has been charged with assault and the youth "has been reported under Section 38 of the Criminal justice and Licensing Act Scotland, and in connection with an allegation of trespass". which I guess means "no ticket"? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16288101 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: The Sandman Date: 20 Dec 11 - 10:13 AM it is irrelevant to this thread whether or not people beat their children, the fundamental issue here is innocent until proved guilty, therefore the transport police should have dealt with the matter, it is not the right of some little prick who thinks he is a big man to interfere. if the lad was guilty then he should be punished by the courts. I made a point in another discussion that I was not surprised that some youths throwing rocks at cars ended up with a crossbow in their stomach, i did not say it was right to fire a crossbow, what i said was I was not surprised by the violent reaction to mindless violence. if someone came into my house and tried to attack me, i would defend myself,i would attempt to overpower the attacker with violence, it is not necessarily right in the eyes of the law, but it is a natural instinct. however this lad did not attack the railway employee or physically assault him, therefore it was wrong for the passenger to throw him off the train. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Silas Date: 20 Dec 11 - 06:05 AM Don you have already said that you hit your children, you have labelled yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 20 Dec 11 - 06:02 AM ""Michael - you and I may well be able to make a distiction between a 'corrective slap' and a full blown beating, sadly, there are many people who can't. This is why the phrase 'reasonable force' is so ambiguios. If you really think that everyone has the same quantative values you really need to go and have a lie down."" So you think that you know enough about MtheGM and me to label me as a child beater while anointing him with the lofty position of having as much intelligence as you. Mike, you have my sympathy (though I absolutely believe that you are more intelligent than that). Silas, you are a pompous, arrogant ass. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Silas Date: 20 Dec 11 - 05:54 AM The last post from guest Silas is not from me - it is bluesman up tio his silly games again. He has already had three posts removed from this thread.
-mudelf mod- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Dec 11 - 05:53 AM It is argued that using force - of any degree - to train a child teaches that force is a legitimate argument - precisely the problem that we see in feral subcultures. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Silas Date: 20 Dec 11 - 05:46 AM Michael - you and I may well be able to make a distiction between a 'corrective slap' and a full blown beating, sadly, there are many people who can't. This is why the phrase 'reasonable force' is so ambiguios. If you really think that everyone has the same quantative values you really need to go and have a lie down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: MGM·Lion Date: 20 Dec 11 - 05:22 AM Nonsense, Silas. Read Hegel, on the tipping-point where the quantative difference becomes a qualitative difference: a clip round the ear or a smack on the bottom are not the equivalent of 100 lashes of the knout. If you really can't see the distinction ~ tough titty. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Silas Date: 20 Dec 11 - 05:08 AM """"""Well, Don, if the only way you can controll your own children is by beating them, then it's you who has the problem - no one else."" Crap!! You don't have to hit kids to discipline them, and if the only way that you can justify your argument is to claim that a smack constitutes a "beating" I'm sorry for you. I smacked my son just twice, when he was about three years old, by which time he already knew the rules he was expected to obey, and I never had to do that again. """" Hmmm. "You don't have to hit kids to discipline them" And "I smacked my son just twice" in the same post? Beating, Smacking, Belting, Cuff aroumd the ear, its all the same pal, you are physically abusing children - it is not the way forward. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 20 Dec 11 - 04:30 AM gnu ~ nobody is repeating what you said. If you post on these threads then you must expect people to respond. If that upsets you then the answer is not to post in the first place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Mississippi Saxaphone Date: 20 Dec 11 - 04:10 AM Not used to links. I'll finish my post here. Taken from here. Unique policing environment not an every man and his dog policing environment. I doubt that the person who manhandled the youth had the skills and training that the British Transport Police have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Mississippi Saxaphone Date: 20 Dec 11 - 04:06 AM Problems like this one on trains should be dealt with by the British Transport Police NOT members of the public. The railways are a unique policing environment with a unique set of needs. British Transport Police's 2,835 police officers and 1,455 support staff exist to provide a specialist policing service to meet those needs. Taken from |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: gnu Date: 19 Dec 11 - 06:52 PM Okay... one last time... Ricky... if you don't check what you buy and the price of it, YOU are unbelievable. As for the terms and conditions... that is a ridiculous complication of my arguement. Sheer assinine stupidity which you have attempted to disguise as an arguement which has no validity with regard to what I posted. eanjay... WTF? Why are you repeating what I said so many times? Do any of you read the previous posts or even YOUR own before you post them? Or are you just so full of yourselves that you can't debate the basics of a discussion without serious thought and compassion for the people and the situation being discussed and for the other readers and posters? Fuck me! I am definitley gnightgnu. Have fun with it. BTW... got change for a three dollar bill? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 19 Dec 11 - 06:11 PM Whether he should have checked his ticket or not is irrelevant. It should have been sorted out by the railway police and not someone throwing his weight around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Dec 11 - 06:00 PM You check the ticket you are given? And read the terms and conditions? I don't believe you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: fat B****rd Date: 19 Dec 11 - 03:27 PM Good points -IMO- Gnu. How come none of the other passengers haven't,apparently, made their views public?. Maybe I've simply not seen them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: gnu Date: 19 Dec 11 - 03:12 PM Hmmm... I'mmmm baaaack... for a minute. "The video recording begins after the person who made it became aware there was a disturbance. The youth may (or may not) have tried to explain his situation politely before it was started." I (have) contend(ed) that IF he HAD done so, this shit would not have happened. I (have) contend(ed) that IF he HAD a valid ticket, this shit would not have happened. If he was issued an invalid ticket, he is still at fault for not checking the ticket to see that it was a valid ticket. I don't pay a cashier whatever they ask without making sure the correct prcice was charged for all items I purchased. And I don't try to leave the store without paying for all the items. Arguing about why the lad was in the position he was in is pointless. He fucked up. He shoulda got off... and learned his lesson. Once again, it was not handled correctly. But, like I also said... well... you read it. Sorry to come back and interject once more, but, gee whiz. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: goatfell Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:39 PM thank you |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:26 PM ""Well, Don, if the only way you can controll your own children is by beating them, then it's you who has the problem - no one else."" Crap!! You don't have to hit kids to discipline them, and if the only way that you can justify your argument is to claim that a smack constitutes a "beating" I'm sorry for you. I smacked my son just twice, when he was about three years old, by which time he already knew the rules he was expected to obey, and I never had to do that again. My daughter never needed a smack and therefore never got one. I spent massive amounts of time with them, as did my wife, and we were never too tired to sit and work with them. By the time they went to primary school they were both able to read and to count, as well as write their names. We backed any disciplinary actions the teachers had to take, rather than threatening them with violence, though such occasions were very few. I never had a cop knock on my door, nor any neighbour or shopkeeper complain of their behaviour. They never skipped school either, and both went into successful careers, daughter as a nurse, currently doing a degree course and bringing up three kids, son with a double first at Uni working as Head of the Art Department at a large boys school. What do I think is the basis of good discipline? When a small child misbehaves and the adults watching say "Aaaww, isn't that cute?"..........Well actually NO!! It isn't cute, it's wrong, and that is the response the child should receive. It might seem a small point, but it can have huge repercussions. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 18 Dec 11 - 05:23 PM His ticket wasn't out of date though.I know the hotel Richard,took photographs in it. My budget break hotel was a bit of a distance from Saint Mark's square. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Dec 11 - 04:42 PM Well, actually, I once flew to the Venice Film Festival with a client only for the client to discover on arrival that his passport was expired - and he blagged his way (in Italian) past the immigration officials. I was very impressed. The other thing about that trip was that we were booked into the Danielli - Bozo will probably know about that hotel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: The Sandman Date: 18 Dec 11 - 04:39 PM well, the truth will come out in due course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 18 Dec 11 - 03:54 PM Some of the comments on here about how the youth was the victim must have been written while on a substance or the victim of too much cider. The person was travelling without a valid ticket, refused to pay for the journey, and told a staff member in full view of customers to fuck off. Well done to the bloke who got him off the train. It is the soft touch tactics that has made this country look a laughing stock when it comes to punishment for crimes. I would have done the same. Some youths think that they can do what they like, when they like and to who they like. It's about time the law abiding citizens fought back. Did you notice in the video, the youth claiming that he showed the ScotRail employee his 'fucking ticket' while a group of stunned young children sit close by with their mother in shock. The conductor asks him to stop swearing, only to be told to "fuck off". As for those who throw away their receipts, that's got to be the worlds thinnest argument! You do need to keep your ticket when travelling to be checked by staff, everyone knows that without producing your ticket, you can't travel. Have you ever tried to board a plane with no ticket? You wouldn't get very far. Same goes on a train. If he had lost it 'by mistake' as he claims, he should still abide by the rules, apologise for the mistake and got off. It isn't the train companies fault that he 'threw the wrong ticket away'- If they took his word for it, they'd have to do the same for everybody, and no-body would ever pay! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: GUEST,Jon Date: 18 Dec 11 - 03:13 PM This youth could of explained he had no valid ticket, if this was the case, he was in the wrong. If he had the wrong ticket, he could have asked for understanding. In the video I saw neither. The video recording begins after the person who made it became aware there was a disturbance. The youth may (or may not) have tried to explain his situation politely before it was started. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Dec 11 - 02:52 PM With such respect as I can muster, Bluesman, authority must earn its respect and it does not do that by not listening or by acting irrationally. We do not know whether the youth did in fact buy two tickets or not. His credibility is I gather diminished if the video shows he had his bag that he was saying he was trying to get off the train (unless by that time he was concussed and confused). You are making an assumption. The youth's case is that the inspector was obdurate and unlistening. I find that very credible having heard the way they conduct themself at London Bridge station bullying people whose first language is not English and who could easily have misunderstood the Oystercard scheme for use between metropolitan stations. If the vigilante was "pissed off" then he was exactly the wrong person to "assist" the inspector. If he was intervening, at the very least he should have behaved rationally and reasonably. It seems very doubtful that he did so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Dec 11 - 02:29 PM "We must all agree" - only to disagree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: The Sandman Date: 18 Dec 11 - 02:19 PM We must all agree, the conductor was within his rights, the youth was definitely problematic." no, [imo] the conductor should have contacted the transport police and he should have allowed the train to continue to the next station, he should not have allowed a member of the public to throw the youth off the train. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 18 Dec 11 - 02:09 PM Richard, we live in a society in which a sizable number of people no longer respect authority. A lot of the younger generation receive no guidance from parents, some of which may be down to the break down of relationships or immature parenting. This youth could of explained he had no valid ticket, if this was the case, he was in the wrong. If he had the wrong ticket, he could have asked for understanding. In the video I saw neither. He became verbally abusive, he showed no respect for age or authority. The guy who removed him was most likely pissed off listening to him rabbit on to some old guy the same age as his dad. Have you ever stood in a line of people and listened to someone abuse a receptionist in a hospital or GP surgery, post office or shop ? I have, and yes I did become involved. I told them politely to either clean up their mouth or I would become their problem. I am not a hard man or street fighter, but I take no shit of anyone or stand for it either. I would get out of my bed at 3 in the morning to do anyone a good turn, but if someone pulled a stroke on me, I would get out of bed at the same time to do them a bad turn. We are of the same generation Richard, if you are receiving more respect that most, fair play to you, Medway must differ from Hereford. 999, you have my respect and gratitude, not only as a man, but as an accomplished naturally talented artist. We must all agree, the conductor was within his rights, the youth was definitely problematic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket! From: GUEST,Jon Date: 18 Dec 11 - 02:06 PM But suggesting that the kid was Mr Innocent just makes no sense. I'm not sure about "Mr Innocent" but we do not have any evidence to say whether or not he was dodging his fare. His version says he bought two tickets and the video neither supports or disproves this. What makes no sense to me are the suggestions that has to be guilty of fare dodging. I'd have a similar problem with a position that asserted he must be innocent of this. To me, either would seem to be based more on personal bias or prejudice than any facts we are aware of. |
