BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test

Subject: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Crowhugger
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 10:03 PM

Tonight when my husband read to me a news item from the paper about this image on a billboard in NZ (see top left of page), first I laughed right out loud. Immediately I also thought it was a brilliant stroke of PR to make a church relevant to early 21st century people. A great angle on an old story.

We both laughed some more at a list of possible captions for the billboard (scroll down)--some are downright audacious! Though I don't know if the billboard actually has a caption.

Anyhow, given that I'm not Christian and my husband's Catholicism is long lapsed, it occurs to me there may be more to this than meets our eye. Do tell: Does the image offend you? How, why? Does it amuse you? How, why? Not sure? Talk about that, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: gnu
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 10:38 PM

It's funny. Even tho it's DEFINITELY not funny to me. I think it's in VERY poor taste. But, anything for a joke. Live and let laff eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Fossil
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 11:07 PM

Gnu should *definitely* never visit New Zealand! Most people here appreciate the - let's say slightly risque - sort of humour and it's appreciated that an organisation like a church is prepared to take it on.

My own (Presbyterian) church, St John's in the City, Wellington also has a tradition of provocative posters - such as the exhortation (with appropriate photos) to "Love thine enemy: Go Australia!" which appeared during the Rugby World Cup.

But, looking at the Virgin/Pregnancy Test one - isn't there a very serious message there, underneath the obvious humour? We are, of course immediately faced with the question any woman in that situation has: "What do I do now?". Think about it, it's what the Catholics want you to do...

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 06:41 AM

Let me add to the "bad taste" angle by posing a cmpetition for the best one line addition:

Starting with "Some party that was"

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 07:08 AM

Jesus!

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 07:43 AM

I occasionally went to concerts in that church in the early 70s. The one that really stands out was a performance of Cornelius Cardew's "The Great Learning", paragraph 7, where the whole audience participates - walking around the nave singing the text at pitches they chose themselves, then every so often walking up to somebody else, listening, and adopting their pitch instead of their own. So the sound started out as an enormous blur and as as a result of all those individual exhanges gradually focused down on a single unison tone.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 08:21 AM

"Now, this is going to take some explaining"

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 08:29 AM

The second link in the OP makes these points.
This billboard portrays Mary, Jesus' mother, looking at a home pregnancy test kit revealing that she is pregnant. Regardless of any premonition, that discovery would have been shocking. Mary was unmarried, young, and poor. This pregnancy would shape her future.

It could have added that she faced being stoned to death for conceiving while unmarried, and that she would have been barely 14, or even just 12 or 13.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 08:37 AM

"Wait till I get my hands on that fucking angel."

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 10:26 AM

Find it mildly amusing. If I saw it on a billboard, I would not spend any time looking for any wider meaning than what seems to be the intended joke. But, then, some folks can see deep meaning in many things, such as abstract art, often far beyond the orginal intent.

But, don't see that it would be seen as offensive to most broad thinking folks. Unlike in the past, today most Christians also have a broad sense of humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 12:31 PM

I wouldn't think of it as anything worse than a slightly edgey attempt to provoke thought. If you look down the comments with it at the linked site, I find some of the foaming-mouthed reactions far, far more disturbing than the billboard. Some of them really sound like people who could become physically dangerous at the least push of their religious "buttons".

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: gnu
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 01:10 PM

I guess I should have said... it's displayed in public. It would drwa flack here fer sure.

By the way, some of the responses above struck me as very funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Crowhugger
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 01:36 PM

If I'd seen it on a billboard I'm not sure I'd even have figured out what she was holding, but maybe it would be clearer on that size of image.

What I enjoyed was the different point of view--being taken into the minutiae of that famous woman's moment of truth. But then my sense of humour is very often about an unexpected point of view (my favourite comedic poem of all time is, "Have You Got Any News of the Iceberg?").

I'm trying to get a handle on *why* image might be bothersome or downright offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:23 PM

Mary is revered by Christians.
Some will find it unacceptable for her image to be used for such marketing, but there will be no beheadings or bloodshed.

Is there any other religion in the world whose principal figures of reverence would be used in such away?
Of course not, but the feelings of Christians do not matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:30 PM

I'm trying to get a handle on *why* image might be bothersome or downright offensive.

I sat with this for awhile before posting. The thread title alone gave me a hint of the topic, but I was peasantly surprised to find the original post asking how people might be feeling about it.


I found it bothersome. It's hard to say why, because it's a nonverbal reaction..... :

I think every generation struggles to reinterpret the Gospel in light of their own particular times and culture; this image/approach seems, to me, to be antithetical to my times and culture.

I'm not particularly an old poop, or lacking in humor; I just know that for many people of my age (or older), I would not be the only person wincing and feeling like something that is precious to me is somehow not knowable to "today's" culture... in 'most any carload of folks I'd be likely to be riding with, down our big highway on the way to ministry class, that billboard would provoke various degrees of sadness.


For me, that discomfort comes along with the solid experience of knowing that, very often, these people (people in "emerging" church culture in general) seem to come to Hardi and me (and other "dinosaurs") because of the depth our spirituality has provided to us. That place in me that feels discomfited by this image is the very same place from which people draw from that resource.


So whenever I see one of these "flash-bang," emerging-church thingies, part of my inner response is, "Oh, here come some more people in need of our solidity...." And simply-- it can get kinda tiring, maintaining that resource against the insistent tide of change.

We are not against change, but we just feel the increasing pace of it in the un-connection-ness of the people insisting upon change-- when the day comes that they bring whatever present panic the changes have not prepared them to withstand.

(Since you asked.)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 03:51 PM

Don't see why she looks surprised - hadn't the fortune-telling angel told her well in advance? ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 03:55 PM

I am not offended but I was not able to see a large picture, just thumbnail, and it did not seem to be uglified..just a woman holding an object. But I didn't find it funny either.

It is not like those "art" forms that are meant to shock and upset people. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 05:36 PM

Is there any other religion in the world whose principal figures of reverence would be used in such away?

these days even Krishna uses a dating agency

the goddess of vinyl furniture

Buddha should use a microwave

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Crowhugger
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 07:05 PM

Susan I appreciate your insights and candour. I'll mostly want to sit with and consider them a while, but I can say right off that I winced too, although my reaction was to the breaking a general societal rule, not the breaking of any of my personal rules or the crossing of a personal comfort boundary, if that's a fair way to characterize what you expressed.

Jack it's interesting that the images you found are designed to sell consumer products, and while that is a common thing to see, it's perhaps more common than to see a deity-adaptation (for lack of a better expression) designed to promote religious discussion. In this case it seems they want to inspire or provoke discussion; I don't know how they might measure whether a future donation or membership can be traced back to this image.

I wish I'd followed through with clicking on the image sooner; I would have used this link to the image instead. At this size it's clear to me what she's holding and that she is inside the most spider- and fly-free outhouse I've EVER seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: gnu
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 07:20 PM

Mother Mary woulda been fine in my outhouse up country. No flies, no spiders.

All she woulda needed was a clothespin. If the flies and spiders hadda had sommat like that, they mighta survived.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 07:37 PM

Well, I wasn't even born back then so I had nothin' to do with it...

That will be my final answer...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 07:49 PM

My son's comment- History might have been different if they had had the morning-after pill in those days.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 07:59 PM

CH, well said. Further via PM if you wish-- I will not be following the thread further. Thanks again for asking.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 10:43 PM

It is a pretty picture with a good expression...lI am not sure she looks like a 14 year old..I would say more 30ish..I am also not sure how many strawberry blond Palestenians there were at the time but there undoubtedly were some..also, did they have nice wood to spare for outhouses for poor people? I would have thought rock or clay brick or something. But it is not a bad picture. Has a universal quality to it. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Crowhugger
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 11:17 PM

Interesting about the apparent age of Mary in the pic. I didn't register thoughts about that. Looking afresh I wouldn't have pegged her as old as you did. 19 maybe. The style makes it hard to be sure though.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 04:08 AM

I have been pondering why I find it funny and also potentially offensive and the two are clearly related.

One reason is the cognitive conflict of 1C Palestine and the 20C testing kit. The second CC is in my mind between the Mary the Mother of Jesus and the young woman who looks as if she is not happy and that it is an unplanned pregnancy. The sacred made profane?

For those of us who feel christianity is part of the status quo and via the Church of England the ruling class, we are witnesssing a poke at one aspect of authority.

This is my take as an atheist

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 05:34 AM

I think anyone who hasn't faced a pregnancy they weren't ready for (married or not) has no right to criticise that facial expression. Its an awful situation to be in, even now. Particularly if you don't agree with or have no access to abortion.

Mary was young, living in a society which would not have looked kindly on the situation (and I've seen or heard several reasonable and informed interpretations of the sort of thing that might have happened), and probably frightened. Even if you believe the bits about the visit from an angel, and even if she believed she was chosen in whatever way, there would have been human moments of doubt and self questioning.

She may or may not have been formally betrothed to Joseph by this time - the stories are too vague for us to know at this distance. That would have helped a bit, but not much.

I hope it helps the church in question. It certainly makes me think. And I do like some of the comments.

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 06:01 AM

I find the reactions of those purportedly shocked posting on the linked site deeply disturbing and somewhat dangerous.

The uncharity of the Xtian religious right to single pregnant women is sociopathic and the image lampoons it well. Many a young single pregnant woman will "have the baby kicked out of her". Some religion.

The poster on the other site arguing that women are put on earth to provide future generations is quite simply dehumanising women.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 06:29 AM

I find it extrememly offensive, and if this were to be displayed in my local area, I would stridently object in every way possible. This is blasphemous sacrilege. The Virgin Mary is the Mother of God in Christian teaching, and as such no-one should be permitted to display such a poster. Imagine if Mohammed (peace be upon him) were to be portrayed in an equally disrespectful way. There would be riots. No doubt there will now follow a stream of abusive and derisive postings, but I stand firm.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 06:30 AM

My father was always amused by the bit of folklore called The Irish Girl's Prayer, "Mary, Mother of God, who conceived without sinning; teach us, we pray, to sin without conceiving." I think he had learned it in his own university days. I was, & am, never quite sure if I found it amusing or not ~~ thoroughly ambivalent, in fact.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 06:35 AM

I am likewise, as I hope my last post made clear, ambivalent in the same way about the subject of this thread. Eliza, I should never dream of deriding or abusing your deeply felt opinions as expressed so cogently above; and agree with you that there are other religions whom cartoonists would hesitate long before making such game of their faith ~ especially with that not-so-long-since Danish example before them.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Musket
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 06:42 AM

I thought it was Red Bull that gave you wings?

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 06:56 AM

As a non-believer I am confused (and sometimes amused) by what the multifarious and divided sects of the Christian religion do or do not find offensive. My mother was orthodox C of E and was offended when the local Catholic church erected a full-size, life-like and multi-coloured effigy of Jesus on the cross outside their church. She thought it vulgar and irreligious. Let's not forget that many beautiful murals and carvings created to inspire worship in our local parish churches were destroyed during the Commonwealth by Puritans of a Presbyterian persuasion who classed them as 'graven images'.

It would seem that, where religion is concerned, even though adherents claim to worship the same god, you just can't please everybody – or anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 07:57 AM

Is it possible to respect people and their religion when those people don't appear to respect each other or people of other faiths?

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 10:53 AM

This is blasphemous sacrilege. The Virgin Mary is the Mother of God in Christian teaching, and as such no-one should be permitted to display such a poster

This is a bit tricky. The people displaying it are themselves a Christian Church, so it is not exactly analogous to the Krishna/Buddha examples. I'd certainly be unhappy if it was an advertisement for a pregnancy testing kit, for example, because the reasons you give. But as it is a poster by a Christian Church aimed at getting people to think more about the reality of Christmas (as Christians perceive it), I'm not opposed.

(On the other hand, I am always wary of the phrase 'no-one should be permitted', whatever it applies to.)

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 12:26 PM

I found this interesting:
(via google)
blas·phe·mies
1.
a. A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.
b. The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.

Perhaps those claiming the first should be aware of the second?

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Crowhugger
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 03:48 PM

Unfortunately that kind of definition doesn't help me to know why some people (Eliza and others) find the image blasphemous. Saying that it is blasphemous or contemptuous or profane doesn't increase my understanding at all about what aspect(s) of the image, exactly, are unacceptable. [sigh] I guess it's self-evident to those who "know", but I don't know and if I'm to learn I do need it spelled out clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 04:46 PM

Crowhugger, I'm taking you at your word, (although I wonder if you're just teasing by saying you don't understand why it offends)
Imagine if you will driving along and passing a large billboard on which was depicted an enormous photo of your mother. The photo has been digitally altered so she appears to be wearing, say, a sexy thong and boob-tassels and she's holding an opened bottle of whiskey and winking. People are laughing at her, as some of them recognise the lady as your mum. Later, some even come up to you leering and ask if you've seen it. I do think you'd be deeply upset and offended, and want the poster taken down. You'd probably be very angry as well. The Virgin Mary is not, of course, my mother, but even more importantly, she is/was the Mother of Our Lord, the Mother of God. She should not be depicted holding a pregnancy test and looking peeved. She is not an object of derision or disrespect. Maybe this can help you to understand?

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 06:23 PM

The whole point of the Annunciation story is that it short-circuits this scenario - Mary agrees to become pregnant, no question of her being surprised at a notional pregnancy test.

Now if you had Joseph looking worried about a positive pregnancy test showing up, that would be a different matter, a potentially funny way of bringing it all up to date, and quite in keeping with the original story, where he does get rather gobsmacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Crowhugger
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 10:34 PM

Eliza, thank you for bearing with me on this. I expect it's just as hard for devout folks to wrap their heads around how I see things as vice versa. Are you saying it's against church rules to consider or portray Virgin Mary in any light other than as a devoted madonna figure? You did kind of lose me at the parallel between thong & tassles on my mother and VM thinking "oh sh!t, this baby thing is for real." Does this mean that you feel VM taking a pregnancy test effectively sexualizes her, and that's what's wrong with the image?

McGrath, your comment is helpful, I think. Do I understand correctly that you're saying that what the image portrays is not possible within the story of the annunciation? If so, the image messes with theology (I think, it's not like I'm an expert in this stuff) so I can totally understand how that would be blasphemous.

I think that those who were raised Christian may not realize just how much detailed knowledge they've amassed about it, which knowledge I, for one, do not possess. I do know that Christians care about certain stuff that isn't a big deal to me. That is the whole reason I was asking about the image in the first place--I know enough to realize there may be issues but I don't know enough to see what they are. I'd rather know than guess, so I asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 04:51 AM

' the image messes with theology ··· so I can totally understand how that would be blasphemous. ' Crowhugger
,..,
I think not. Theology is simply a series of academic opinions and theories postulated on matters of religion; not any sort of defining statement of belief. Depending on whose theology and in whose view, it might be heretical. But I can't see how it could be blasphemous.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Crowhugger
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 06:33 AM

M, you won't be surprised that I'm not exactly up on the difference between the two. I do figure you got my general meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 07:16 AM

What the hell! It's a joke - you either get it or you don't. End of!

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 07:23 AM

McGrath of Harlow

The whole point of the Annunciation story is that it short-circuits this scenario

Surely this picture IS the Annunciation brought up to date. I think Mary was a little troubled until Gabriel explained the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Crowhugger
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 07:53 AM

theleveller, just enjoying the laugh is perfectly fine! I hope you'll be equally fine with me trying to get a handle on what makes it NOT funny to some.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 08:09 AM

What doesn't work is the implication that an imagined positive pregnancy test might come as a surprise in the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 08:43 AM

My suggestion was that this scene doesn't follow the Annunciation, it IS the Annunciation.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 09:51 AM

No, at the Annunciation she was told that she would conceive, not that she had conceived.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 10:06 AM

"The Virgin Mary is not, of course, my mother, but even more importantly, she is/was the Mother of Our Lord, the Mother of God. She should not be depicted holding a pregnancy test and looking peeved. She is not an object of derision or disrespect. Maybe this can help you to understand?'

It's your choice to believe that, it's not your choice to foist those views on other members of the society in which you live.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin Mary & pregnancy test
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 10:12 AM

Ooops! Pressed the button before I finished. I meant to say that it's your choice to believe that, it's not your right to foist those views on other members of the society in which you live, however. If you think it is, I find Christmas offensive so whoever doesn't agree with me must take down all the trees and decorations and show some humility and compassion for a change. But wait - that would be rather unreasonable wouldn't it?

I don't mean to be rude or inflammatory but you have to realise we don't all share your beliefs and think that in many cases they're detrimental and offensive to many, many people.