BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)

Subject: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join now!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 06:51 PM

On Monday, the president's reelection team will unveil a trio of Web sites dedicated to providing supporters with information on the president's record — and more than a little dirt on his Republican rivals. The campaign has named it Obama's "Truth Team," and the goal is to arm millions of surrogates with the facts, figures and talking points they need to engage in ground-level political combat — on their Twitter and Facebook feeds and in old-fashioned conversations with friends and neighbors.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obamas-truth-team-aims-to-network-its-way-to-a-reelection-win/2012/02/10/gIQAGs5u9Q_story

I think I have a general idea how this is supposed to work--Obama will tell the truth about his record and that will get him re-elected. And we're supposed to help him spread the word. So...with the new NDAA law Obama can disappear your ass if you sass him. Got it? You will be freakin skinned alive if you don't go along with his wars and the gutting of the economy. And after he's been cheated into a second term you will zip your lips when he gives your pension funds to the big banks. There will be lots of jobs for energetic young people who are willing to break your bones in exchange uniforms and drugs (drugs provided by Eric Holder, uniforms to be drawn from leftover brown and black shirt stocks).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: gnu
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 07:07 PM

Did Obama start the wars? the financial crises?

Don't bother to answer. I won't be around to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 07:44 PM

No, Obama has no wars to his credit. His cruise missile bombing of Libya was actually begun under George W. Bush. And his drone bombings of civilians in Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan and other places aren't acts of war, as the Republicans may claim. Those are acts of hope and change.

And don't let anyone say that Obama's "stimulus" was in reality part 2 of Bush's "bailout." Sure the money went to the same banks, but one was called a stimulous and one was called a bailout. Totally different things.

Go Truth Team!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 08:01 PM

Do Not Feed Trolls

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 08:21 PM

So you're not going to do your bit for Obama, Bobert? He's got a super PAC funding him with untold billions now, but he's asking for 2 million unpaid volunteers to serve on his Truth Teams. Step up to the plate, Obama boy. Either you're for him or against him.

Go Truth Team!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 08:24 PM

No, wrongman, I'm not going to get sucked into your hate & insanity...

But thanks for the offer...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 08:51 PM

Yeah, Obama's fighting the good fight. The bad ol' congress just okayed 30,000 drone aircraft in the skies of the U.S. by 2020, but Obama says he's got the program on a "tight leash." He's making sure a huge number of people don't get killed by drones overseas, so we're good to go on the U.S. drones. And besides, it's that Republican congress that forced them on him. Or no, the minority in that congress forced him. Something like that. All I know it's the fault of the Republicans. Obama will make sure a "huge number" of us don't get killed by the drones.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 08:51 PM

Go Truth Team!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 09:04 PM

I find 'Truth Teams' a bit romantic. However, despite Obama signing away habeas corpus--with the promise he would never use it of course--I don't think a discussion of the use of media in politics is trolling. Obama may be the second coming to lots of people, but he's not sacrosanct.

He did something similar in the first election with the internet. And I think the Republicans would do the same if they could find someone to write coherent thoughts.

Ask Obama's 'Truth Teams' about FEMA camps in North America. Ask Obama exactly who gives orders to HS. Ask Obama why ICE has been harassing American citizens. The fact anyone likes a candidate is not reason enough for everyone else to shut up about that candidate. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 09:25 PM

Hey Wronger, did you sign on as a bone breaker? You've obviously drawn your drug ration.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: John P
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 10:07 PM

I agree that Obama has things in his record that need looking at, and that discussion of his record is a good thing. But that's not what Songwronger is doing, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 10:12 PM

I'm just gonna stand over here with Bobert.....

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 10:35 PM

"But that's not what Songwronger is doing, is it?"

Fair question. So I'll ask.

Songwronger, ya wanna answer the man?

############################


As a btw, my post of 15 Feb 12 - 09:04 PM stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: number 6
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 10:40 PM

and I stand right beside Monsieur 999 on this one.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 11:52 PM

Yes, let's discuss his record. Obama's Truth will defeat all arguments. Fortunately his backers have funded three websites to get the ball rolling, so I guess I should report in there for my talking points.

Let's see what AttackWatch.com has to say.

Deep-pocketed GOP attack machine fuels negative campaign tactics

Hmm. Obama announced he'd spend a billion before the race even started, and now he has a super PAC backing him, so I'll need to read that article to learn how to counter the "big money" charge.

Mitt Romney downplays our economic recovery

Damn. We're in an economic recovery? Son of a bitch Romney never said anything about it. Sic 'im Obama! Oh, wait a minute. The website has cut and paste answers for me. Cool.

Romney said, "He's (Obama's) been trying to take a bow for 8.3 percent unemployment. Not so fast, Mr. President ... We welcome any good news on the jobs front, but it is thanks to the innovation of the American people in the private sector, not to you."

The Truth Team response is: Far from taking "a bow," President Obama has been clear about the fact that we still have a long road ahead of us. When President Obama took office in January 2009, we were shedding nearly 800,000 jobs a month. His immediate, decisive action to stop the bleeding reversed the trend. We've now seen 23 straight months of private-sector job growth, creating a total of 3.7 million jobs.

I could have sworn unemployment was over 20%. The numbers don't even take into account the folks who've quit looking for jobs. If I didn't know better, I'd think Romney and Obama were sparring over a non-fact. But it's not my job to think on the Truth Team. I'm supposed to present Obama's Truth.

What else? One of Romney's people said, "The Navy has only 285 ships today, the fewest since World War I, and it is straining to uphold its unique global responsibilities. Our Air Force has only 39 fighter squadrons, fewer than half the number it had two decades ago."

The Truth Team response is: The problem with Bolton and Romney's claims that the Air Force and Navy are weaker than they've been in decades: they're outright lies.

Some numbers would be nice, but if they press me on that I'll just mention skin color. That and all the drones that Obama's building. 30,000 just for America, to protect us from...something.

Then there's this. "Americans for Prosperity, a group funded by the billionaire oil executive Koch brothers, is spending $6 million on a television ad attacking the Obama administration's perceived relationship with clean-energy manufacturer Solyndra."

The Truth Team response is: This type of baseless attack is nothing new for the Koch brothers. But it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

There. Take that you Koch people. Obama told YOU!

Ah, a good headline. Romney and Limbaugh ignore the President's record with "anti-business" attacks

The Truth Team response: President Obama's record shows that he's focused on building an economy that will last.

Damn straight. Haliburton and the Department of Defense are hiring Internment and Relocation Specialists. Jobs with FUTURES. Limbaugh should get out more.

So I don't even have to type actual responses to those buttheads that say Obama's doing a bad job. Just cut and paste. Obama's the MAN! Politics made easy. Don't even have to think about this shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:02 AM

Hail to the Troll King

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:06 AM

the best Troll food:

Don't read the drivel, just post links to stuff that will piss them off. Like this...


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/poll-good-economic-news-brightens-obama-election-prospects-171421056.html

Suck It!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:13 AM

YOU have GOT to be kidding me. There are legitimate things to make Obama answer for. I'd sooner drink liquid shit than use Attack Watch as a source for a political argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 12:07 AM

Why are you people wastin' yer energy tryin' to prove that Tweedledee (Obama) is better (or worse) than Tweedledum (any Republican stooge who aims to become president). You will get the same basic thing whichever one of them you vote into office.


You will get:

More American wars on Muslim nations who are no threat to America at all.
Stealth bombers.
Attack drones (lots of 'em!).
Assassinations of foreign people.
Bank bailouts.
Unconstitutional removal of your once enshrined civil rights.
More corporate oligarchy, less small business.
A growing surveillance (police) state.
A bigger and bigger national debt.
A weaker dollar.
A poorer main street.
A dwindling middle class.
Your jobs sent to China.

If Obama wins, you lose!
If the Republicans win, you lose!

Wake up for once and smell the decaying corpse of your onetime republic.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 12:29 AM

And your wise and practical suggestion is.....

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 01:48 AM

Nom nom nom nom nom nom nom....
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/signal/
Troll food.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 05:51 AM

Chongo is absolutely correct.
All you people like Tia who refuse to engage in debate remind me of the three monkeys who refused to see, hear, or or speak about evil.

I find it so strange how easily you fall into this mode....anything which is perceived as against your ideology is proscribed.

"Dont feed the trolls" is such a defeatist statement......as I have been saying for a long time, it is Orwellian in concept.
It was even more evident on the "gay" threads when debate was stifled by crys of "dont debate with this person", dont read what he writes etc"

Really sad to see decent people herded into that corner.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 08:41 AM

My suggestion? Keep a clean nose, stay outta debt, and watch yer back. Move to some other country if at all possible. Those are the same suggestions I'd have given a German or an Italian in 1937. There is no practical solution through your presently ruling political oligarchy.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 10:21 AM

I have at least one small suggestion of a significant thing any American can do to retain some semblance of sanity, morality, and responsibility in your Congress. Help get Dennis Kucinich re-elected by making a donation to his campaign.

I quote the following email endorsement of Dennis Kucinich by Gore Vidal:

Dennis Kucinich was a voice of sanity after 9/11, cautioning against lashing out at the world. He led the effort in Congress opposing George Bush's Iraq War. His October 2002 analysis of the call for war against Iraq stands today as a statement of clarity of vision and courage which, if heeded, would have spared the lives of US soldiers and Iraqi citizens alike. His was a relentless challenge to the rationale for the war and a call for accountability for those who lied to drag us into the war. You may remember that it was Kucinich who led the effort to try to impeach George Bush and Dick Cheney for their fabrications, prevarications, and other misstatements. When others were promising 'permanent war for permanent peace' Kucinich was the one who pointed out the idiocy and the hypocrisy.

In the past decade, Kucinich opposed not only the war in Iraq, he voted against every single funding bill for war, whether Iraq or Afghanistan. It was Kucinich who again rose up to create a rare bipartisan coalition to thwart the war against Libya for a time. As the fundamentalists now take hold there, once again the question arises, why did we go into Libya? What was that really about?

Today, the neocons again are attempting to rush America into a war against Iran. It was Kucinich who took to the floor of the House in debate to knock down again and again the false claims that were being made to try to justify sanctions which could lead to still another war.

I am writing to urge your financial support for the re-election campaign of Congressman Dennis Kucinich, who has been our nation's most consistent voice for peace, economic and social justice. Months ago, Congressman Kucinich's district was dramatically altered by the Republican state legislature and the primary election is in only 19 days with mail-in balloting well underway. As a result, he is facing a highly competitive primary with a majority of new territory.This champion of peace obviously cannot rely on war profiteers for funds necessary to gain re-election. He must rely on those of us who are peace profiteers, our friends and family, to be his support and his voice as he has been ours over the past decade and more.

I urge you today to go to www.kucinich.us/donate and contribute to Dennis Kucinich's re-election. We must protect Congress' most consistent, most courageous voice for peace and for civil liberties which peace protects. Please contribute generously to his reelection. Please help preserve his voice, his vote in the United States Congress.

Thank you,

Gore Vidal

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 12:23 PM

"Dont feed the trolls" is such a defeatist statement."

Oh sure.... and all those theories and accusations and conspiracies the trolls toss out? We are supposed to spend half our lives answering them all?
It is way easier to make trollish claims than to demonstrate the flaws in them. It takes MUCH longer to disprove stupid assertaions than to make them........a fact which is not lost on the Republicans these days. Distortions, personal attacks, made up data, sneaky insinuations, faked videos...etc.... all aimed at the gullible who don't have the time or intelligence to debate or check for reason and accuracy.

Sorry, ake... but "Don't feed the trolls" is a better defense. *IF* any of their assertions are vaguely true, there are experts being paid to check it all out....and if it is important, it will be noted.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 06:05 PM

I dont perceive songwronger as a "stupid" person Bill and I dont consider myself "stupid", yet we have been designated trolls by people who are manifestly more "stupid" than we are.

I dont think there are many trolls on this forum, unless you include as trolls those who cleave to the ideology of one particular political party in the face of reasoned objective debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 06:11 PM

Wow, you really see the opening of this thread as "reasoned objective debate"? Really?
Again, wow.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 06:33 PM

"stupid" assertions can be made by smart people with an agenda. Perhaps "stupid" was the wrong term... try invalid, deceptive, erroneous...etc.

I see claims & accusations made that are patently false & misleading..... but what I am never sure of is whether the trollish one KNOWS he is being inaccurate, or has managed to lie to himself about the issue in order to further a position- which is 'willful ignorance'....or is indeed stupid.

There are all sorts of areas where we can simply disagree about 'relevant' facts, or if facts are agreed on, about how to alter the situation... but these days there seem to be more half-truths, outright lies and sneaky implications than I remember in past election years..(and I remember back to Eisenhower/Stephenson)


If I was 50 years younger, I'd consider a PhD and career in studying "what ARE the differences in how people think?" genetics? peer pressure? culture? There sure are some who don't bother to get a handle on the facts and logic before yammering about answers!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: number 6
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 07:49 PM

Whew Bill D .....you sound just like Bill O'Reilly on that last post. Almost word for word.

ok .... I'm outta here

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 08:16 PM

""He did something similar in the first election with the internet. And I think the Republicans would do the same if they could find someone to write coherent thoughts.""

They would first have to find somebody who could get his knuckles off the ground and write, then instal a few brain cells.

I wonder why it is that the malice and lack of respect for truth of posters like the OP are always in direct proportion to the speed with which Akenaton arrives to support them?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 08:27 PM

Looks like Troll A has picked up some ObamaHateBrigade "Classless and free" trolls to help peddle/paddle the Hate Canoe...

((((((((yawn))))))))))

Like Bill asks, "And your ideas"...

The silence is deafening...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 12:44 AM

"They would first have to find somebody who could get his knuckles off the ground and write"

Chongo!

"then instal a few brain cells."

Chongo again!!! He has more than a few brain cells, in fact.

Beats the hell out of me why you poor sods don't give up on the Big Two phony parties that have you hypnotized and lobotomized and get out there and support Chongo and the APP. ;-)

Here's a tip: As long as the mighty imperial $ySStem that really runs your country can keep you battling each other in a futile divide over the utterly illusory choice between voting for a corporate-backed Democrat or a corporate-backed Republican...it will have you right where it wants you. Helpless and in its pocket.

It will use primitive trigger point issues to divide you against one another and thereby keep you mesmerized in the partisan game. Gay rights. Abortion. Creationism versus Darwinism. Fear of socialism. Religion versus atheism. Fear of being called "unpatriotic" for not supporting a fascist war of unilateral aggression by the USA. Fear of "terrorism", when the biggest terrorists are really your own armed forces (albeit they don't realize they are terrorists...the soldiers are acting in good faith, but they're being cynically used by your corporate leaders).

And you keep falling for it, don't you? Whether you are a Democrat OR a Republican. The Democrats and Republicans are ONE party. And you don't get that. The people in those parties mostly don't get it either, they are completely lost in the drama, but the people at the very top of the corporate food chain DO get it, and they play you for fools...and laugh all the way to the bank. For those guys, Obama works fine...Romney would work fine...Gingrich would work fine...Biden would work fine...Hillary Clinton would work fine...Bush worked fine...they don't care! Any one of those guys (including Hillary) will do. Those guys are just figureheads anyway, though Obama is a very smart figurehead, that's for sure.

Your presidential elections are a joke. But not a funny joke. And they are the longest and most costly electoral soap opera in the history of the western world...or rather, of the entire world.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 04:27 AM

But those not in a party or without massive funds have no voice in the system. The Tea Potty had to hijack the Repuglicans to gain representation. They did it only with the support of fascistic billionaires.

There is no equivalent power on the left. The Occupy movement, noble as it is, has not got the money to provide propaganda as the Tea Potty did.

LH - can you propose a less bad solution?

Akenaton - can you or do you propose any solution at all other than interning and exterminating all homosexuals and gypsies?

In the absence of an actual different choice, the only option is to support the lesser of two weevils.   


I believe the US system can be greatly improved -

1. Reverse Citizens United and make all party funding totally transparent and required to be from US only.

2. Make lobbying paid for by anyone other than the lobbyist personally a crime. A register of lobby gifts - or better a total ban on lobby gifts.

3. Reform campaign finance. Best system probably a cap on campaign spending, or central funding by the state paid for out of general taxation only.

4. Adopt the UK "long title" rule - amendments and additions to Bills are out of order unless within the purpose as fairly set out in the long title.

5. Reform the filibuster. Speeches should be out of order unless on topic and a guillotine should be the subject only of ordinary majority rules.

6. Something akin to the Salibury convention and/or the finance bill rule and/or the Parliament Acts from the UK. Yes, our Parliament Acts are flawed as tehy permit the dictatorship of the majority, but that is better than permitting the veto of the minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 04:35 AM

The Dept of HS has a budget for 2012 of 40 billion dollars. Ask Obama's "Truth Team" why.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: saulgoldie
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 09:08 AM

Most folks who have achieved any level of power have lied or deceived or taken actions that hurt someone at some time on some level. Idealists are very seldom in leadership positions where they can actually make change.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 10:49 AM

I very much agree with your suggestions for reforming the American political system, Richard. They are well thought out.

What I don't see, though, is how the people presently in power and thereby benefiting from the way things are now will be persuaded to enact those changes. It's not in their own selfish interest to do so. It's in the public's interest...but the public doesn't control the government! The people the public elected control the government, and if 98% of them are basically in favor of maintaining the status quo because they profit from it...then the public can't do a thing about it.

This is exactly the problem in almost any well-entrenched power system.

A really corrupt system generally either falls...or changes...in the wake of some catastrophe which shocks the public into demanding fundamental change. This has happened to past systems when they:

1. lost a major war
2. experienced an almost complete financial collapse
3. or...possibly...were brought down by immense natural disasters (there may have been cases of that in the past)
4. or in the wake of some incredible scandal at a very high level
5. or sometimes...there's just a slow, gradual decline and erosion of power, and it could take as long as a century for that to happen

And I expect that some of the above things will eventually cause the USA system to either change. Or perish.

There was an opportunity in 2008 to early 2009 for Obama to bring about immense change in the USA in reaction to the financial meltdown. He could have mobilized plenty enough public support to radically improve the American system in a progressive manner. He did not sieze that opportunity, and the moment passed. It had to be done then, and done quickly. It has not been done at all...in fact things are getting significantly worse in some respects (in the area of abrogating civil liberties, human rights, and basic freedoms). Bush couldn't have gotten away with it, because people on the left would have raised hell about it. Obama can get away with it, because most of those same people on the left choose to look the other way, make excuses for him or remain silent. That is their great error. They think he's their man. They are wrong.


Only a true idealist will stand up against a corrupted political system and call for a change. Dennis Kucinich is one such, but he's only one man. pdq (who I gather is a Republican supporter) refers to Dennis Kucinich as being "irrelevant". It's that sort of contemptuous dismissal that a few genuine idealists are met with when they try to change a decadent system. I don't see much hope of the USA system being reformed in the manner you suggest...but I do agree that such reforms are very badly needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 11:28 AM

Richard....I take it that your remark about "interning and exterminating" was some sort of weird legal joke?

or are you just a devious liar?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 11:51 AM

He wants you to be the antisocial monster he wishes you were, Akenaton. ;-) If it were really so, then he'd be morally "better" than you, and knowing it would give his ego a flush of pleasure that would rise rapidly from his toes to the top of his head. You'd be "smaller", he'd be "larger".

It is this very desire to be seen as "superior" to the person one is arguing with that causes so many people to drift from honest debate into personal insults and gross character assassination. You see politicians doing it all the time to one another.

I wouldn't say he's a liar. He's just getting lost in some emotionally charged rhetoric, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 12:36 PM

Why does Obama's 'Truth Team' sound like something from 1984?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: pdq
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 12:49 PM

Orwell's "Ministry of Truth" has been changed to Obama's "Truth Team"...only the name has been changed to protect the guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: number 6
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 01:18 PM

"the truth" .... an over used word these days, especially by politicians (yes, republicans, democrats, and Stalinists) and mainstream news commentators .... a word that is used to lure the innocent and naive into thinking all is ok, and warm and fuzzy with their side and the other side is all made up of liars spewing out brimstone and hate.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 03:43 PM

Yes, this tactic of depicting the other side as "liars spewing out brimstone and hate" is a very opportunistic and exaggerated habit on people's part, and one that does them no credit. I see it happening a lot on this forum too, just as it does in the public sphere. It's the least intelligent way of dealing with a difference of opinion...short of death threats and physical violence, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 03:50 PM

""a word that is used to lure the innocent and naive into thinking all is ok, and warm and fuzzy with their side and the other side is all made up of liars spewing out brimstone and hate.""

Not a particularly good point to argue 6, since at the moment only one side is consistently lying and spewing out brimstone and hate.

The side, moreover that is using every dirty trick in the book to prevent Obama's government from achieving any change whatsoever.

I don't subscribe to LH's view that both sides are equally matched as regards dishonesty and corruption, since it is patently obvious that the Republicans are deliberately hamstringing the Democrat majority, without giving a shit about the damage to their native country.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 03:51 PM

And I bloody hate HTML

DT

[guessed at what you intended- clone]

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,songbob
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 04:12 PM

Republicans 2012:

Keeping millions out of work
To deprive one man of his job.

Some say this is close to treason, but others say it's their only chance.

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: number 6
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 04:33 PM

DonWzzzyzzzg ..... "Not a particularly good point to argue 6, since at the moment only one side is consistently lying and spewing out brimstone and hate."

Yeah ..... well, it always the other side isn't it ..... but when you really look at it .... right now in the U.S. there is only 1 side, no real difinitive difference between the 2 parties bucking for the power seat .... it's a perception, an illusion that there are 2 sides to make a choice, that one is all wrong and the other is all right.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 04:55 PM

We're gonna' have to vote for Obama because you don't want Santorum, Romney or any Re-uglican picking members of the Supreme Court.

The answer lies not in the voting booth but on the streets by local groups maintaining protests against the war-mongering, financialcorruption and oligarchy of the candidates.

Non-co-operation is the way to go. Boycotts, protests, non-violent activism,
and most important, really getting the information that you need to have to make
informed judgements. This means ignoring major media outlets and going to alternative sources in media.

The time has come not to trust elected representatives to make decisions for you regardless of their political affiliation.

Obama is a mixed bag. He's done some good things and some very bad things but this is true of most presidents and the only way to push him to do the right things is to
support groups like Occupy and alternative sources to the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 04:58 PM

"The Dept of HS has a budget for 2012 of 40 billion dollars. Ask Obama's "Truth Team" why. "

Because on creation they took over most of the most critical duties and responsibilities of 19 other different agencies including the Coast Guard, FBI and TSA?
Because protecting a country as big as this with the number of enemies it has accumulated over the years, the amount of coastline and number of immigrants it welcomes every year, takes a lot of resources?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Allen in Oz
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 05:22 PM

Ah the Truth Team

George Orwell would have loved it !

AD

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 05:38 PM

""Because protecting a country as big as this with the number of enemies it has accumulated over the years....""

Especially when the majority of those enemies are the very people who are trying every dirty underhand trick in the book, in order to become the next government of that country.

Little Hawk and some others may believe there is little difference, but most of the rest of the world remember the difference in body counts between Democrat Clinton, and Warmongering Republican Bush.

Obama isn't to blame for Afghanistan and has been left in a no win situation, damned if he pulls out and equally damned if he doesn't.

Looked at from where we are (not relying on Faux News for information), Obama is a man trying to do the right things against the handicap of a fanatical opposition, determined to prevent the smallest success.

Right now, IMHO, the Republicans are doing more damage to the USA than was caused by the Civil War, and the worst of it is that they don't give a flying f**k, just as long as they get shot of that "Uppity N*****".

A disgraceful situation in the 21st Century.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: DougR
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 06:04 PM

Sigh.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 08:03 PM

I have never asserted that both sides (Democrats and Republicans) are "equally matched as regards dishonesty and corruption"...though they are both past masters at it! ;-) But they're not equally matched. Uh-uh.

The Republicans are usually the worse of the two simply because most of the people who back them have a far less realistic basic social philosophy underpinning their views. They've been sold a bill of goods that sounds like "freedom", but lays the ground for a new form of fascism (one that forms an unholy alliance between corporatism, religious fundamentalism, militarism, and privatization of the public sphere).

The Democrats are usually the better of the two simply because most of the people who back them have a far more realistic basic social philosophy underpinning their views. They've been sold a bill of goods that sounds like "freedom" too, but that lays the ground for a new form of fascism (one that forms an unholy alliance between quasi-liberal political correctness, anti-religious fundamentalism, militarism regardless, and privatization of the public sphere regardless).

You get somewhat different rhetoric from the two...because it has to be tailored to impress a different sector of the public. What you get once they are in office, though, is:

bank bailouts
increased corporate domination
your jobs exported to China
reduction of your civil rights
increased surveillance by shadowy entities like Homeland Security
more illegal wars in foreign countries
more divisive posturing in Congress
more divisive posturing about gays, religion, "socialism", etc.
And so on...

The problem isn't that they are "the same". They're not. The problem is that they serve the same corporate and military interests! And that renders hoo-hah like gay rights and evolution vs creationism as mere irrelevancies to distract you, because the corporations couldn't care less whether or not you believe in God...or are an atheist...or love gays...or hate them. They don't care! But they use those splinter issues to distract and divide you, and they control the parties by financial clout no matter which one wins the election.

If you like the general style of the Democrats better (and I do), then of course you'll prefer them to the Republicans! But don't think that electing them will change basic US policy on fundamental matters like war, law enforcement, trade, and finance. It won't. They'll just bicker over the decorations on the tree, but you'll still get the same old Christmas tree, regardless...underneath those decorations.

If I had to vote for either one of them, it'd be the Democrats. But the Democrats won't save you. (Nor, needless to say, will the Republicans!)

What really worries me is that a new war with Iran may conveniently usher in Obama's 2nd term by depriving the Republicans of their rabid war fever propaganda tactic. I sure as hell hope that doesn't happen. As for the damned Republicans, they (most of them) positively thirst for a war with Iran. Obama could royally screw up their election game by getting into a war with Iran first, but it would be a tragic error of simply gigantic proportions if he did so, in my opinion. It would be like setting the house on fire so your wife won't get the chance to redecorate the rooms in a style and color you don't like!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: number 6
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 10:23 PM

Democrats / Republicans .... if you peel away the brand and outside packaging you'd notice that they are pretty well the same .... it's the brand and packaging what people go for .... You are correct LH in that the corporate/military oligarchy controls both ... they play one brand (style as you call it) against the other, but in the end they call the shots.

Look at what the Democrats have done in the last 4 years, the Republicans would have probably and more than likely passed the same laws especially ones such as the FAA Reauthorization Act, and National Defense Authorization Act ... In regards to the environment there definitely is no difference between the 2 parties e.g. giving the ok to offshore drilling, giving the ok for a new Nuclear Energy power plant .... the Dems and republicans are in the same bed with Wall Street. The division between the rich and poor is widening and regarding the military, there is no difference at all, the wars and war propaganda continues.

There is no difference except style and brand and those who wear the label on their shirts ... the shirts are the same. They are both made off shore in sweat shops.

Well kids .... that's my late nite banter here on the madcat ... and until a new day begins I bid you all adieu

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 04:56 PM

1) No one really knows who gives DHS their marching orders.
2) Why does FEMA need about 800 prisons or concentration camps and detention centers in the US?

When they're kicking your door down, Jack, give them some of your sarcasm. I'm sure they'll enjoy it. Duh!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 06:25 PM

http://www.squidoo.com/bowlersforobama

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 08:00 PM

Come on, Team, where's the spirit? We got Hope and Change in the White House, but it takes five years to change anything. Barack needs another term, so get out there and Educate people.

And what's with the links, TIA? Don't stray from the script. Your reponses are at AttackWatch.com to just copy and paste. Don't get into specifics. Obama doesn't look so good when he's pinned down with numbers. Give the man the room he needs to do his thing. It's all about Hope and Change, not numbers. And start blaming things on Romney. Barack got all the mileage he could out of Bush, then the "Republican congress" ;-), and now it's time to say that Mitt made him do it.

I'm waiting for AttackWatch to tell me what to say about Ron Paul. That guy is NUTS. He wants to end America's involvement in foreign wars. Can you believe that? He wants to cut income tax to zero percent. Says it'll draw people and industry to the U.S. Can you believe that? No income tax...that would send people FLEEING from the U.S. Bunch of other crazy stuff he wants to do, so I'll be glad when AttackWatch takes time off from building up Mitt Romney to tell me what to do about Ron Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 08:25 PM

Yo, Songwronger, well said. Except the stuff about Ron Paul. Just because HS has harassed him doesn't make him right. He could be wrong. (I do not think RP is wrong.)

Our real problem now is how do we fix what NO one sees as wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 08:43 PM

Yeah, well Ron Paul is CRAZY. He says America's turning into a fascist state. And he wants to do an audit of Fort Knox, to make sure the gold they claim is there really is. I mean, he's acting PARANOID. We all know the gold is there, and we're DAMN sure not turning into a fascist state. Obama's a socialist. Limbaugh said so.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 11:19 PM

LOL! Love the satire, guys. ;-) Yup, that Ron Paul must be NUTS! He wants to close American military bases in foreign lands, end USA involvement in foreign wars, end the Federal Reserve Bank (which is a private corporation that prints any amount of worthless money it wants to any time it wants to). SHOCKING! And he wants to bring American troops home and invest in the home economy instead of in massive military spending. EGAD! He's a lunatic!

I note that the corporate media try very hard to ignore Ron Paul completely...or to depict him as a nutcase who can't be taken seriously. That tells me he's got something worthwhile to say, like maybe the truth.

And the same goes for Dennis Kucinich.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: number 6
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 11:57 PM

I agree LH .... ending wars, creating a Department of Peace, taking the $billions being spent on the military and investing back into the home economy, ending the federal reserve makes a lot more sense and is more appealing to me than the other alternatives being promoted by the mainstream media.

The real lunatics are the tea baggers and the Obama fanatics who constantly point fingers and accuse one another of being of being this, and being that and resign themselves to believe what the mainstream media tells them. They will go out and vote the way they will vote not realizing that the next 4 years will be the same (regardless if the incumbent is Republican or a Democrat). More than likely the next 4 years will be worse. That is lunacy.   

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: DougR
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 02:16 PM

"Obama's Truth Team." Now there is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 04:11 PM

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/general_election_romney_vs_obama-1171.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/general_election_santorum_vs_obama-2912.html

Just to make you crazier...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 04:32 PM

".. like maybe the truth.

And the same goes for Dennis Kucinich."

Like maybe interesting 'ideas' which sound desirable, but simply wouldn't work in practice.

Ah well, we need 'point men' like Paul & Kucinich to define the outer limits.... it helps practical folks to identify what steps might actually accomplish something.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 04:48 PM

The "Practical folks" of all political parties have ruined our economies and our societies by taking capitalism to its logical conclusion.

It is well past time to stop throwing our labour, savings and pensions away on a failed and corrupt system, fronted by con men of all shapes and colours.

As I am always saying, the apologists for the said system are the the real obstruction to change.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 05:04 PM

"Practical folks" of all political parties have ruined our economies and our societies by taking capitalism to its logical conclusion.

Ummm... I don't think the actual practical ones did the ruining. If Obama had not been practical about that nasty 'bail-out', we'd have little or no auto industry today.

...and what IS that "logical conclusion"? Is that better or worse than an 'illogical conclusion'?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 05:13 PM

The US is no more as a democracy. It will be a totalitarian state by January 20, 2013.

#######################################

DougR: I chuckled at your remark. Good one. I'd always seen President Bush as an oxymoron, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: number 6
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 05:45 PM

"If Obama had not been practical about that nasty 'bail-out', we'd have little or no auto industry today."

Almost every person I know (in fact most cars on the road) is driving either a Japanese or a Korean car that is probably) manufactured in either the U.S. or Canada ... the only domestic vehicles driven today are pickup trucks and police cars.

They should not have bailed them out with tax payer's money. GM would have gone down, Chrysler would have survived by foreign investments. It would have been a rather hard bump on the road but the industry would have even itself out.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 05:54 PM

Don't scare me like that, 99 (can I call you 99 for short?).
What do you mean, totalitarian state by inauguration day in 2013?
Say it isn't so!!!

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:07 PM

but the world is ending on Dec.21... what difference does it make?

♫"sing ninety-nine and ninety.."♫

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 11:37 PM

What if it ends instead on December 18th? Then everyone will get caught short, as it were, and 3 shopping days will never get to be! Think of the lost marketing opportunities!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:32 AM

"The division between the rich and poor is widening and regarding the military, there is no difference at all, the wars and war propaganda continues.""

There is however the difference that only the Republicans start wars. The Democrats are then left with the nasty job of timing the disengagement, which cannot be done as precipitately and thoughtlessly as starting them was.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:41 AM

""As I am always saying, the apologists for the said system are the the real obstruction to change.""

And as we're always asking,....you brilliant solution is?

Oh I forgot, you don't actually have one. You just want to pull the house down and go live in the garden shed, figuratively speaking.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:42 AM

Don, what solution would you have proposed to a progressive-minded German or Italian or Japanese citizen around about 1937 or '38?

Hmmm?

And, yes, it is a very comparable situation. But it's a new form of Fascism. It is Corporatism...a Fascist system which can function quite readily in a phony "multi-party" system. (Hitler's government first came to power in a multi-party system, then took on "emergency powers" after the burning of the Reichstag (think 911) and never revoked those emergency powers...just like the Patriotic Act has never been revoked.

The tools of oppression and surveillance which are available to the new Corporatism are far more sophisticated than those available to the Fascist leaders in the late 30s, while its weapons are beyond anything they could even imagine.

What is your solution?

****

As for the Republicans only starting wars: not true. Kennedy and Johnson started the Vietnam War...and Nixon was the guy who finally wound it down! Keneddy allowed the Bay of Pigs to go ahead (but fortunately did not commit support from regular USA forces). Obama intervened in Lybia, put some undercover special forces on the ground there, and is waging covert war in a number of Muslim nations, covert war that is barely spoken of in your media. Both the Democrats AND the Republicans are absolutely up to their ears in covert wars, overt wars, assassinations, and subversion of other governments in many parts of the world, and they have been for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:48 AM

So, seems that the Republicans running for the White House are in agreement that Iran be given a deadline to meet or else...

"Or else"???

Haven't we seen this movie before??? How'd that one turn out??? Not so good, heh???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:52 AM

Oh, I have a solution all right,but you wouldn't like it.
It involves convincing people that the money system is a con and encouraging them to find fulfillment without the need to exploit others or the environment....that the worship of money dulls our appreciation of all that is fine in the human condition.
That politics and war stink, no matter vwho practices them.

The People.
"Most wonderful! With its own hand it ties
And gags itself—gives itself death and war         10
For pence doled out by kings from its own store.
Its own are all things between earth and heaven;
But this it knows not; and if one arise
To tell this truth, it kills him unforgiven.

"Only Republicans start wars"......Oh?

Have we forgotten Mr Blair so soon?
Or Mr Hague?
Or Mrs Thatcher?

I suppose YOU would classify all of the above as democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:07 AM

Right on, Ake. It is the unbridled and corrupt worship of MONEY (not God) that has brought world society to the wretched condition it is now in...and the money isn't even REAL! It's a fiction. It's fiat money created by banks who have pumped trillions of totally insubstantial dollars, pounds, Euros, etc into our economies...creating them out of thin air through the simple procedure of making loans to governments and industry.

The inflation resulting from all this phony money creation means that I can now sell a painting my father bought in 1951 for $80 for.....$8,000 dollars! So the money has basically inflated by a factor of 100 X since 1951, because that painting is intrinsically worth the same as it ever was.

We've been living under a giant pyramid scheme all our lives. Who benefits from it? Bankers and the very rich, that's who.

The amount of government and civil debt generated by all those loans has grown so enormous that no society can afford to pay it...or even to pay the interest charges on it. And STILL the game goes on! And the people who helped created it got a bailout!

That is the kind of outrage that in the not too remote past created things like the French Revolution.

We need to stop doing things for the sake of MONEY and start doing things simply because they are DESPERATELY NEEDED for the common good! That's what I saw happening to a considerable extent in Cuba, to a far greater extent than in my own country, and that's why I love Cuba and will never forget the example I saw set in that society. (And that's why the USA administration hates Cuba and wishes to someday cause regime change there.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 10:02 AM

""Have we forgotten Mr Blair so soon?
Or Mr Hague?
Or Mrs Thatcher?

I suppose YOU would classify all of the above as democrats.""

In case you hadn't noticed I was commenting on US politics, and that should have been obvious to the dullest intellect, since the UK is not a republic and therefore those you mention were not Republican politicians.

I deplore the actions of Blair and his cronies in starting a war.

Mrs Thatcher, however did not. That conflict was started by Argentina invading British territory.

If you ever want to have any credibility you should pay more attention to facts, rather than spouting your malicious nonsense about "liberal conspiracies".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 10:14 AM

Ake's criticism of present day "liberals" is of much the same approach as Phil Ochs' criticism of them was in "Love Me, I'm A Liberal", Don.

Are you familiar with the song?

They are quasi-liberals. They talk the talk, support the fashionable causes, act all righteous...but at the end of the day, as the saying goes, they are relentless supporters of conventionality and "business as usal, through the usual channels". They preserve the ruling status quo. They support the existing power structures. They believe the "liberal" fake politicians in their favorite parties, leaders who pretend to be progressive while working hand in hand with the very forces who oppress the general public, rob us all blind, and launch imperial wars upon populations in Third World nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 01:12 PM

Exactly so Little Hawk.....I've never met anyone who was so "in tune" with how I think......maybe we should get married :0) :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 01:21 PM

And Don, if ever I go lookin' for "more credibility", I wont be knockin' on your door anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 01:40 PM

Liberal, Conservative, Republican, Democrat, Labour, in political terms they all work for the same boss.
Only difference is that the political conservatives know, admit and are proud of their vicious ideology.
The "liberals" are simply weak deluded enablers.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 02:25 PM

Proposing solutions that in literal fact will not happen are little better than no ideas at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 06:56 PM

I have a workable solution. The death penalty for voting fraud. Capital punishment. Fair trial, then if you're guilty, you die.

Think about it. What else do you have in life that's more valuable than the right to live the way you want? That's what voting is all about, self-determination. The most valuable thing there is. And we execute for murder and rape and such, so why not for voting fraud?

If Obama and the corrupt Daley machine fiddle with Illinois again this time around, try them and execute them. Ron Paul's being cheated out of his primary win in Maine. Try and execute the bastards doing that. Gore vs. Bush in 2000. Theft of a presidential election. Execute the members of the Supreme Court who perpetrated that crime.

The U.S. stomps around the world interfering in other country's elections, but we tolerate outright theft on the grandest scale in our own country. Execute when we find voting fraud and voting theft. A few such executions would put a stop to the practice.

How's that for a workable solution?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,Big G
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:58 PM

Media Matters

G

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 11:19 PM

"...solutions that in literal fact will not happen" Like I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 05:03 AM

Ideas are not "literal fact" and they can be made to happen....with the will.
Last night I watched the Venesualan youth orchestra perform...made up from children from the poorest families....they had been inspired, and more importantly, they inspired hundreds of thousands with their committment.....Away with your defeatist negativity!
Nice to to see you back in the jungle Ebbs....hacking through the undergrowth with your trusty "stiletto" :0)


Anyway, the ideas mooted by the more radical here, are not simply an alternative to global corporate capitalism, they are the only way to ensure the long term survival of humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 01:58 PM

The ignorance of Canadian members of this forum about the auto bailout is astounding.

For one thing Chrysler 300's are made in Canada.
For another, last figures I saw, the US government will make money on GM and nearly break even on Chrysler, so rather than sending market share to Asia and Europe what would be the benefit of allowing them to go down.

Ford actually asked for the other two to be bailed out because they share critical parts suppliers with the other two. Allowing GM and Chrysler to go under would probably have taken an otherwise healthy Ford along that same path.

A million jobs were saved in the US and Canada. A million.

The cost of new cars went down.

Cash for clunkers stimulated the economy when it needed it most and got a lot of gas guzzlers and polluting cars off of the road.

The auto bailout was a very good thing. If you don't believe that you are either ignorant or unaffected by economics. Certainly your interests differ from mine to the point that I would have to classify you as a political opponent, if not enemy.

In this case my political interest is the healthiest possible North American economy and tax base and the cheapest, best built cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 03:24 PM

Hear! Hear! JtS.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 04:21 PM

The bailout came from two countries: US and Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 04:42 PM

Take the mystery out of 'why' a lot of you are SO WRONG!! ..all the time!! (interesting read!)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 08:26 PM

"The ignorance of Canadian members of this forum about the auto bailout is astounding."

So, one Canadian mentions the auto bailout and according to Jack (and Eb?) it's all Canadians. Right. GFY.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: number 6
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 09:24 PM

Yes 999, only 1 Canadian (yours truly) mentioned the auto bailout and he certainly did not intend to speak for all Canadians on this forum ... I stand by what I said in that post and in doing so (according to Jack) because my opinions differ from his I am classified as the enemy ... so Jack you can go ahead a grafitti the walls of derelic buildings that .. Number 6 is the ENEMY.

Whew ... that is pretty heavy if not scarry stuff ... sorta like that quote "you either with us, or against us"

Again, I reiterate, I am the enemy, I alone said it ... I was not speaking for 999, gnu, LH, bobad or any other Canucks in this forum.

biLL ... public enemy number 1 ... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 07:00 AM

As a former GM stock owner, royally screwed over by Obama's payoff to the unions, I , too , am now am enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 08:40 AM

Spoken like the true Bearded Bruce "Its all about ME!"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 09:22 AM

biLL, the jury is still not in on the bailouts. They started with Bush (about 4 billion) and continued with Obama (about 12 billion). And keep in mind that a good 10% of the bailouts were Canadian funded. Some of the same people who bitched when Bush did it laud it when Obama does it. Go figure. BTW, you are a friend, so if that makes you Public Enemy #1, well, proud to know you.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 12:55 PM

Greg F, when you support something, I know it is evil, nasty, and supported by scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 03:45 PM

You bet, Beardie - & right back atcha. Your comments speak for themselves without any help from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 06:02 PM

The right cannot bring itself to admit that the auto bailouts worked... I mean, their entire narrative is that no matter what Obama does that works it has to be defined as a failure??? The stimulus worked, righties... Sorry, you don't like to hear that and we know you won't admit it...

Like I have pointed out before, if Obama found a cure for cancer the righties would accuse him of trying to put doctors out of work...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 06:38 PM

One more time: Bush started the bailout of the auto industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 06:52 PM

Bush also started the loan to Solyndra and passed it off to Obama with a full recommendation that the loans be made...

Truth sucks, doesn't it, righties???

Plus...

...100!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 07:35 PM

Don't stray from the scipt, people. AttackWatch.org--copy and paste from there. Numbers are not an Obama thing. They weren't a Bush thing.

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7t3r2EZPHFkATIVXNyoA?p=stimulus+and+bailout+23+trillion&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701&type_par

23 trillion bailout+stimulus, while they hose the public with some "784 billion" stuff. So chill on the numbers. We want Obama in the white house for a second term, or failing that, we want his Republican clone Mitt Romney. Numbers don't favor either of those guys. Stick to the copy and paste at AttackWatch.

Go Truth Team!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 07:51 PM

Well songwronger, you are certainly living up to the second half of your name. Perhaps you would like to explain how a bailout + stimulus of $23 trillion is possible in an economy which, in 2010 stood at $14.5 trillion?

Do please enlighten us on the mechanism which almost doubled the size of that economy in 14 months in the middle of the worst recession since the Wall Street Crash of 1929?

I think your habitual fabrication of figures is busted, or have you turned off your brain cell and accepted what you were told on some troll website?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 07:55 PM

They just make up whatever they want, Don... Kinda factually challenged, so to speak...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 08:34 PM

Amortization and hidden costs. Spread out over ten years, with cost allowances built in. Do you REALLY think the government's going to just take the promised dollar from you once it gets its hand in your pocket? The U.S. government is now a shell corporation for the big banks. You pay in your taxes, they get sent to Goldman Sachs. And the media lies to you about the amount stolen.

Like the scam going on now with the "Payroll Tax Cut." Big political football between the Democrats and the Republicans. Obama says he won one for the working guy, but those tax cuts mean less money going into Social Security. So it'll help kill Social Security. Which is what the Republicans have historically wanted. The two parties work together on this stuff, always have. That's why you're only allowed two choices in the voting booth.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 08:40 PM

I just installed a Just-the-Facts fact-checker filter on my computer and guess what??

All of songwrongers posts disappeared...

Go figure???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: number 6
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 09:21 PM

"Just-the-Facts fact-checker filter" .... is that the app that Bill O'Rielly flogs each night along with his books on his nitely TV program "The O'Reilly Factor"? Don't tell me you went and bought one Bobert ..... Geeezuz, that computer app filters out any text that does not relate to Bill's right wing leanings .... it's a spin program that disguises the truth. Man you are one damned socialist with a hole in his pocket.

biLL .... public enemy #1 ..... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 09:46 PM

Nah, biLL... I got mine from Radio Shack... $29.95 while they last but they are going fast so I'd suggest stepping back from the pudder, gettin' in the ol' Chevy and gettin' down to the local Radio Shack...

Of course, you might get there and find that songwronger has bought 'um all to dump in the river but, hey, he's going around the country trying to buy 'um all up so he can destroy 'um...

Go figure??? Fact is stranger than fiction, right???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:05 PM

"That's why you're only allowed two choices in the voting booth."

Nope. If someone says go right or left, indeed one has two choices. If one hears go right or left or make another decision, one has three choices. Or four. Or . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 07:32 AM

So, Greg F.

You deny that you made a racist lie about me, stating that I had called someone a "Stupid N**ger" and based it on someone else saying that the person who had prosed a bill being discussed was "Black, and a Democrat"?

I know that YOU read "Black and a Democrat" as "Stupid n***ger", but the rest of us do not, nor do we try to use such racist attacks to get away from arguements we have lost, nor do we make up lies about people.


YOU are scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 09:42 AM

Would a mud elf please delete Beatrdie's somewhat incoherent personal attack of 24 Feb 12 - 07:32 AM ?

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 09:47 AM

Would a mudelf please delete Greg F.?

He made a post here for the sole purpose of attacking me, and is now asking to delete my defense. I have shown he is scum, and my post in reply to him is justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 10:27 AM

Scum is something that collects in stagnant water, isn't it? (not trying to imply anything nasty about anyone there...just asking a simple question)

Bobert - Pretty much everything Songwronger is saying is correct, in my opinion. In particular, he said this:

"The U.S. government is now a shell corporation for the big banks. You pay in your taxes, they get sent to Goldman Sachs. And the media lies to you about the amount stolen.

Like the scam going on now with the "Payroll Tax Cut." Big political football between the Democrats and the Republicans. Obama says he won one for the working guy, but those tax cuts mean less money going into Social Security. So it'll help kill Social Security. Which is what the Republicans have historically wanted. The two parties work together on this stuff, always have. That's why you're only allowed two choices in the voting booth."

Dead right. You have no REAL choice at the voting booth, Bobert, because a consortium of giant banks and giant corporations control both political parties AND own the mass media and thereby control your government and shape people's perceptions of reality and run your society. And it's NOT a conspiracy...it's simply a very well-established way of conducting monetary and business affairs...a way in which the richest people IN society are enabled to RUN society...with the objective of making themselves EVEN richer. And it's done with fake money...fiat money...money created in the form of debt...by banks making loans...thereby creating trillions of dollars out of thin air...and past governments have allowed the banks to do it through fractional reserve lending...and it is orchestrated at the top end by the Federal Reserve Bank which is a private corporation that has the USA government and the Obama administration tucked firmly into its shirt pocket, just like it had the Bush administration before Obama. Through organs like the IMF and the World Bank, this corrupt way of doing business subverts governments and extends its fingers of control all over the world...and when it wants to, it also arranges for wars. It has arranged for an endless war by supposedly fighting a war against "Terror". Orwell predicted something very similar to that too.

It's the achievement of Orwell's 1984, Bobert, but it's been done in a rather different way than Orwell envisioned. It's been done not by the power of the police state, but by the power of MONEY. The police state is beginning to show itself now...but it didn't initiate the process, it's an after-effect of the process. Businessmen and bankers allied with the military-industrial complex initiatied the process.

Eisenhower warned what could happen. Kennedy warned what could happen. It has happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 11:08 AM

As we have asked you repeatedly, LH, what is your *realistic* plan for getting there... My plan is to stop the bleeding first... It's easy to see what isn't working and what would work much better... I mean, Helen Keller can get that far... What isn't easy is figuring out how to bust up the ballgame... Again, if you have a *realistic and do-able* plan there are tens of millions of progressives who be indebted to you for laying it out because we've been struggling with this dilemma going back 50 years... If you don't have a *realistic and do-able* plan then yer just blowing smoke...

And, yes, it isn't the songwronger is wrong on everything it's that songtwronger places all the blame at Obama's feet... That makes him as wrong as wrong can be... That's what Lyndon LaRouche used to do... He would lay out the obvious and then come to the wrongest conclusions that anyone could possibly come up with... I remember him talking about the drug problem in the US and everything he sadi made sense until he...

...(((drum roll)))...

...said that Nancy Reagan was the head of the US illegal drug cartel... That is not made up... I saw that speech and I loved it because, well, I loved all of Lyndon's speeches because they all ended up purdy much the way the Nancy Reagan one went... Pure comedy...

That is what songwronger is... Pure comedy... That's why it is a waste of time responding to his posts... I mean, he is another Lyndon LaRouche and you, LH, ain't far behind... lol...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 11:25 AM

Well, geez, Bobertz! Of course Obama isn't responsible for all of it. ;-D He's just temporary. He's a bit player, as far as I'm concerned, albeit he's a rather important one at the moment.

Now, why the heck would you think I have a solution for the most gigantic problems of our time????????? You gotta be kidding. I am not Superman, Bobert.

I am someone who is pointing to a huge storm that is coming, and I'm saying to other people, "Hey, folks, there is a storm coming!" You think I have a solution for that storm?????

Get real.

I might turn your own question back on you and say, "What is YOUR solution, Bobert?"

;-)

See what I mean? It's laughable to think that people such as you and I can come up with a solution for the political-financial-military mess that is present day America in the 21st Century.

There are things that could be done..."your realistic plan for getting there"....but if I were to enunciate any of those, someone like yourself or Ebbie will simply post and say something like:

"...solutions that in literal fact will not happen" Like I said.

In other words, you're not actually ready to listen to anything that WOULD substantially change the sytem, because you don't think it's possible to do things like that.

Which means: you actually agree with me that people like us CAN'T really do anything about the basic situation...but in the meantime, you'd like to make yourself feel better by just doing a little re-arranging of the deck chairs on the Titanic...just so you can feel like good little progressive who are out there "doing something".

Well, that won't work. It won't affect the underlying and most basic issues of our time.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 11:41 AM

No, LH, I do have hope that the US will make the changes but they won't happen over night... Like I said, you first have to stop the bleeding... I'm not into the theory that more leeches is the way to the cure...

When things like "citizens United" happen, that is serious bleeding...

When things like Iraq happen, that is serious bleeding...

When schools in South resegregate (as they are doing), that is serious bleeding...

When millionaire and billionaires spend their stolen money to bust unions and buy elections, that is serious bleeding...

The right wing is intent on destroying the American safety net... Their hero is Ayn Rand... They worship her and have used every Republican president since Reagan to try to "starve the beast" thru all kinds of trickery and propaganda... That is serious bleeding...

Yeah, "we'd all love to change the world"... Great... But before qwe do that we just have to fight in trenches to stop the bleeding...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 03:25 PM

You think the Dems will stop the bleeding Bob?

If I remember correctly they could not wait to line themselves up with Mr Bush in his "great adventure"

In Hillary the Hawk you dont have Florence Nightingale.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 04:27 PM

Yes, Ake, I do...

They have a narrow channel here to get back enough power to have any control...

In the last 30 years they have had a total 2 years where the stars aligned and they used that to pass the Affordable Care Act...

As for lining up with Bush, Google up "Iraq War Resolution" and see the number of Democrats who voted "No"... And this in the face of Bush wrapping himself yet again in the post 9/11 flag and everything was about the Republican Patriotism propaganda... It took balls for the number of Dems who weren't exactly, like you say, "lining up"...

One thing is 100% obvious and that is the republicans have all but sent out working class an engraved letter telling them that the Republicans fully intend to have them all in poverty... 125% of Americans now live at 125% of poverty OR LESS... That has doubled since 1982... It was just reported that 64% of Americans could come up with $1000 if they HAD to... This is a serious attack that the Republicans have going against the working class and the Republicans make no bones about what they are up to...

Are the Democrats like this party of saviors??? No, but they are fighting the Republicans tooth and nail on trying to hold on to the New Deal safety net programs...

There ain't no "Choice C" at present.. You pick...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 12:12 PM

I don't have the faith in the Democratic Party that you do, Bobert. That's the crucial difference between us right there. I think the Democrats are basically pursuing the same corporate course the Republicans are...but through a different style of rhetoric.

You're quite right that the Democrats ARE fighting the Republicans tooth and nail...as you said...and the Republicans are fighting the Democrats tooth and nail...

Yeah.

Just like 2 hockey or football teams, they are fighting each other tooth and nail...but for what?

For the VICTORY, that's what! They are fighting for power. Once in power, however, they are both willing servants of corporate policy. And what is corporate policy? It is to...

1. privatize public institutions
2. move jobs to the cheapest parts of the globe ("free trade")
3. crush small business and form corporate monopolies in its place
4. secure control of strategic resources in the world (oil, natural gas, uranium, water, arable land, etc)
5. enrich the corporate elite at everyone else's expense
6. destroy the middle class
7. reduce workers' wages and benefits and increase salaries of CEOs
8. increase domestic surveillance and reduce civil rights
9. ramp up military production and fight wars for profit
10. secure huge PROFITS for the elite at any cost to the rest of us!

Both parties live to beat each other on the playing field that is the great political game. But once in office, they serve the corporate Oligarchy, not you and me. And that's the way it is. In my opinion, it won't end until they create a world disaster so great that it brings them crashing down...or until there's a worldwide popular revolution that brings them down.

Either way, it's not going to be a nice thing to live through for anyone who gets caught in the "fallout" and collateral damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 07:12 PM

The Affordable Care Act isn't perfect, LH, but it pissed off the corporate interests that the health insurance companies funneled hundreds of millions of $$$ to Dick Armey's freedom Works to defeat it...

Follow the money and you'll easily see which party is the party of the corporations...

Watch very carefully the $$$ in the 2012 elections... I mean, Romney has more pledged SuperPAC money than Obama has raised in total... Where's this money coming from???

Follow the money and you'll see that the corporations ain't all that enamored with the Democratic Party...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 07:17 PM

Well, I wish I could believe that, Bobert. I really do. Back in John Kennedy's day I really believed in the Democrats. Then Lyndon Johnson came along, possibly with John Kennedy's blood on his hands, and nothing's been the same since.

I also had pretty high hopes for Obama, as you know, though I was disgusted with his attitude toward continuing and enlarging the Afghanistan war. My hopes regarding Obama were dashed within a pretty short time, I'm sorry to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 11:09 PM

Like I said, Lh, if you follow the money trail you'll see that this current crop of Democrats are the enemy of corporate America... The Chamber of Commerce alone is going to spend $10M in ad buys against Obama...

Follow the money, LH, and you'll see that what I have been preaching for the last couple of years is 100% right on TRUTH...

This is an all out assault but the monied class to drive a stake thru the heart of the New Deal...

Square business... This is the real deal...

Look at what Bush and Reagan did... They spent like drunken sailors... That is the plan... Starve the beast... Kill the New Deal...

The Dems are all we have left... Last line of defense... No time for "both sides"... No time for "classless and free" lectures... We are down to the nubs... We don't have any good options here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:28 AM

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.

And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.

How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

Julius Caesar

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: number 6
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 07:50 AM

""Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on
a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people
don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in
Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country."
........   Hermann Goering


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:11 AM

But the drum pounding will get louder and louder as the election nears... And guess who will be doing the pounding??? Not Obama but the Republicans... They are already pounding away and rattling sabres... This is how dumb wars start... Countries just bumble their way into these things and then wonder how it happened... And then there's buyer's remorse as we have with both Iraq and Afghanistan...

I just read in the paper this morning that the majority of Americans are in favor of a military intervention in Iran... Where are the voices of reason???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:19 AM

Good quotes, guys. One of the main reasons I am very disappointed in Obama is his war policies...and his assault on civil rights.

Bobert, you said: "This is an all out assault by the monied class to drive a stake thru the heart of the New Deal..."

Darned right it is! And both parties are doing it as far as I'm concerned, but the Republicans are PROUD of doing it! Whereas the Democrats (the ones in office) pretend they're not doing it...it wouldn't please the people who vote for them!

Ever since Reagan there has been a concerted effort to destroy the legacy of the New Deal, to privatize public institutions, to privatize health insurance, to gut the public sphere and replace it with cronyism, corporate fiefdoms, and robber barons.

The Republicans do it openly and proudly. The Democrats do it more quietly, while pretending that they would never do that.

Regarding who is funding Obama: My impression is that in the 2008 presidential campaign Obama received a far bigger share of corporate funding than any other candidate did, and that's one of the reasons he won...the corporates helped crown him. I'd like to see some statistics on where his funding came from in 2008. Anyone got them?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:37 AM

Bobert...a majority of Americans are in favor of a military intervention in Iran because the corporate controlled mass media has been preparing them for it with several years of ceaseless alarmist propaganda about Iran!

That is how public consent is manufactured in America...by the media.

The truth is that Iran is NO danger to the USA and never has been, and that the only real reason Iran could possibly want nuclear weapons is to protect itself against being attacked by nuclear-armed Israel and the USA.

The Iranians would have to be crazy NOT to want some nuclear weapons, considering that they have been threatened in the most obvious and continual way for several years now by the rhetoric and military posturing of the USA and Israel. They are sitting there with the Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads every day of their lives.

The US mass media doesn't tell that to Americans! All they tell them is "Iran is a terrible danger". The truth is: Iran is IN terrible danger! And they know it.

How can you expect your public to have a realistic view of an international situation when they are being lied to about it every day of their lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 10:55 AM

On your first post, LH, we are 180 degrees apart...

On your second one, however. we are in complete agreement...

BTW, Google up "Congressional Iraq War Resolution" and check out the number of Dems who voted against it... Sure, a lot voted for it but you and I were here back then and we both, or should both, recall the post 9/11 demonization of anyone who stood up the Bush/Cheney ward machine...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 11:42 AM

Actually, Obama and the Democrats had only seven months when they clearly controlled the legislative process - from his inauguration until Kennedy's death the following August. After that, they no longer had the 60 votes needed to move anything along in the Senate against unanimous Republican opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 12:28 PM

LH, I cannot attest to the veracity of ANY data here, FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: John P
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 01:51 PM

I am continually amazed by LH and Akenaton and all pretending that we don't all know we live in a corporate-controlled state. Has anyone indicated in any way that we DON'T know that?

The problem, for me, is that there is shit-all I can do about it. I have a job, play in a band, own a home, have a partner and pets. There isn't time to go out and change the world, especially since I know in advance that I would spend the rest of life trying and not succeeding. I choose to not waste my life in that way. I speak when I have the opportunity, and vote against the worst offenders. Standing in the street protesting isn't going to do any good. Changing the laws is only possible, for me, slowly and at the ballot box.

And I'm still left with the question of who to vote for. I can promise you that I'm not going to vote for Obama - his record doesn't stand up to his promises in some ways that are very important to me. He is, however, going to get my vote as I vote against whatever Republican gets the nomination. While Obama hasn't kept some promises, he is very, very, very much better than the Republicans. Any of their promises, if kept, are hugely worse than all of Obama's broken promises put together.

Oddly, I can think of all this while also being aware that I am socialist living in a country governed by capitalistic, theocratic economic totalitarians where my rights to an equitable income and normal privacy are tenuous to non-existent.

So Little Hawk and Akenaton, what are your short-term plans for dealing with the situation? What are your long-term plans? Where is the lever that will move the world? What actions are you taking? Who should we vote for this year? Or should we just refuse to participate in a crooked, flawed system? Do you have anything to offer other than going on an internet forum and hurling mockery at people who are actually trying to fix some of the little things?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: number 6
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 02:23 PM

If I lived in the U.S. I wouldn't vote for either the Democrats or Republicans. I'd cast a spoilt (protest) vote. If there was a third party represented by someone as Dennis Kucinich, I'd vote for them, and knowing full well that there would be no way in hell that party would have a chance. Casting a protest vote or voting for a representative that represents my true and honest belief. The more people that would vote in this manner displays a message in itself of hope and democratic encouragment for the future. I firmly believe casting a vote for the party that you dislike the least is not only futile but is very dangerous.

My son says Obama is one great PR man for the corporate oligarchy. He presents a great design in the package, and in doing so distracts people away from the fine print. I tend to believe this.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 02:35 PM

I am in complete and total agreement with everything John P. said just above.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: John P
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 03:42 PM

I firmly believe casting a vote for the party that you dislike the least is not only futile but is very dangerous.

If Dennis Kucinich were heading up a third party, I might vote for him. Or might not, I'd have to decide if I wanted to waste my vote against the theocrats. He's not forming a party, nor is anyone else. Our only chances for a third party this year are a Christian theocrat party or a Tea Party idiot party. So, in the absence of a liberal, socialist, green, truthful, or financially responsible third party, who should I vote for this year?

In what way is it futile and dangerous to vote against the greater evil? In what way is it NOT futile dangerous to fail to vote against the greater evil?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 04:57 PM

To put it in extreme terms, I'd much rather vote for the candidate who thinks I ought to be tried first rather than the other candidate who thinks I should be taken out and shot outright.

Of course, I could always register my protest by voting for the Lone Ranger, even though I know he'll never make it in time.

If I vote for the candidate who thinks I should have a trial, at leaes I have a chance, however slim it might be.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 05:15 PM

If Dennis Kucinich were a 3rd part candidate I'd still vote for Obama because a vote for Kucinich, as much as I love the guy, would be a wasted vote and there for a Republican vote...

I learned that lesson in 2000 even though I brokered my vote accross state libe and also worked for Nader...

The only 3rd party I want to see is one that split the Republicans and keep them the heck out of the White House so maybe we can restore some sanity to the Supreme Court...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 05:21 PM

Amen!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 05:40 PM

On reading the above(with the exception of 6 and Brucie), I reach the conclusion that there is indeed no hope for the US of A.

How can adults continue to be fooled when the evidence is so plain to see? Is it because there will always be someone just a little bit worse of than you?
The Titanic is going down....but the band plays on.

and the funny thing is that you all proclaim that you want "CHANGE", in fact, that was Mr Obama's great rallying call, but you are really "ANTI-CHANGE".....you are mant times more conservative than the Conservatives.

Phil Ochs was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 05:43 PM

Ever since Reagan there has been a concerted effort to destroy the legacy of the New Deal...

Not quite true- ever since FDR was elected, there was a concerted effort to undo the New Deal - with some notable successes - pursued by the Republicans, corporations & rich folks & other loonies who foamed at the mouth every time they heard his name.

Thing was, most common folks were able to see thru the Anti-FDR bullshit back then. I gues the population was just that much stupider or more disinterested by the time The Great Actor played president.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:30 PM

Phil Ochs song was satire, ya'll... It's not the Bible or manifesto... Quit mis-using it...

And, Ake, you are wrong... If we didn't think there was any chance to correct the flaws we have then we'd just stay home, get drunk and not vote...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:59 PM

(This has a lot of links in it...but not in this 'copy/paste').

Public Citizen's 'Money and Democracy Update'
This newsletter reveals just how openly corrupt our faux democracy has become. It is now possible to become President of the most powerful nation in the world simply by having a single, individual, "sugar daddy. If your "sugar daddy" has more "sugar" than everyone else, there is then a very good chance that the office of President of the United States of America can be openly purchased on your behalf. In the past this would have required many groups and corporations coming together to fund the campaign, and of course the President elect would be expected to repay that effort (corruption), but now just one super rich hedge fund manager could, theoretically, be calling the shots in the White House. Or think about this, since there is no requirement to reveal the source of Super Pac money, how about a super rich Saudi islamist standing in the wings. Super Pacs are open to foreign money.

an e-newsletter about the movement to curb corporate influence in politics and restore our democracy
Issue #98 • February 24, 2012

"Money and Democracy Update" is Public Citizen's weekly e-newsletter about the intersection of money and politics. It is part of our ongoing campaign to track the results of — and ultimately overturn — the U.S. Supreme Court's reckless decision in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, which allows for-profit corporations to spend unlimited amounts of money to support or attack political candidates. We'll update you regularly with select news stories and blog posts, legislative developments and ways to get involved.

Stunning Statistics of the Week:

    $100 million: The amount billionaire casino owner Sheldon Adelson said he may give to support Newt Gingrich's presidential bid, or another candidate
    $11 million: The amount he and his wife already have given to support Gingrich
    $25 billion: Adelson's net worth
    0.044 percent: The percentage of Adelson's fortune that $11 million represents

SEC commissioner calls for disclosure of corporate political spending
The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) is now receptive to Public Citizen's call to require publicly traded companies to disclose their political spending. At a Friday conference, "SEC Speaks," Securities and Exchange Commissioner Luis Aguilar loudly championed the key reform of political spending disclosure, saying that "investors are not receiving adequate disclosure, and as the investor's advocate, the commission should act swiftly to rectify the situation."

Via Super PACs, a handful of people are exerting influence over 2012 presidential races
Using Super PACs, just a handful of mega-wealthy powerbrokers are exerting outsized influence over the 2012 presidential races, numerous analyses have found. USA Today concluded that one of every four dollars spent since Jan. 1, 2011, came from five people. The Associated Press discovered that $33 million of the $60 million collected by candidate-connected Super PACs came from just two dozen people. Every single candidate has a donor who has given at least $1 million to a Super PAC dedicated to helping that candidate.

This is unusual even for a Super PAC …
Suppose you had a Super PAC that had just one backer and was devoted to promoting one presidential candidate. Now suppose that superrich donor made a small fortune touting a special business strategy. Suppose the candidate touted that strategy repeatedly while on the campaign trail. What would that be called? "Kind of amazing," "mutually beneficial" and "quid pro quo" are some phrases used in this unusual arrangement. The candidate? Newt Gingrich. The man behind the strategy? Mike George. Although he sold his strategy and doesn't profit from it anymore, the arrangement shows yet another way for wealthy donors to use elections as PR tools.

Don't let the door hit you
Nearly 400 former U.S. House of Representatives staffers have gone on to be lobbyists, a Sunlight Foundation analysis has found. More than two in five went to a lobbying firm, while one in five went to work for a for-profit corporation and another one in five went to work for a business or trade association.

U.S. Supreme Court puts Montana law on ice
In the ongoing challenge to the Montana Supreme Court's decision upholding the state's regulation of corporate political activity, the U.S. Supreme Court has stepped in to halt enforcement of the law pending further review. The state law has been challenged as unlawful by those who say it conflicts with the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission. Montana justices recently said they would allow the state's ban to continue; opponents went to the U.S. Supreme Court, which late last week stayed the law while it decided whether to hear the case. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg signaled that she thinks her colleagues should reconsider Citizens United altogether.

Three companies agree to disclose political spending
The New York State Comptroller has reached an agreement with three California companies – Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E), Safeway and Sempra Energy. The companies will disclose political expenditures made with corporate money. In addition, PG&E has pledged to disclose information about the company's policies and procedures regarding political lobbying.

Dollars and Cents (even more news bites):

... U.S. Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) and 10 colleagues are urging the Federal Election Commission to require more disclosure of political spending ...

... Speaking of letters, Franken was among eight senators who sent a letter to another agency, the Federal Communications Commission, urging it to require broadcasters to post online the names of those paying for political ads ...

... About 100 people rallied in front of the U.S. Supreme Court this week, demanding that it overturn Citizens United ...

... The founders of Ben & Jerry's ice cream have launched a "Get the Dough Out" campaign against Citizens United ...

... House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi appeared on comedian Stephen Colbert's show this week, making the case for disclosure of the identities of those paying for political ads and other expenditures. Tell Congress to pass the DISCLOSE Act ...

... Comedian Bill Maher has given $1 million to Priorities USA Action, the Super PAC supporting President Barack Obama ...

Visit DemocracyIsForPeople.org to learn more!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 07:25 PM

Yup, GfinS...

Super PACs are insane... I mean, nothing prevents China, or the Taliban, from buying up some gov'mint...

Sam Alito should be ashamed for reacting so badly during last year's State of the Unuion address when Obama told the court that they blown it...

Now it's going to take either a saner court to overturn it or a constitutional amendment to fix this extremist court's decision... BTW, all of the justice who thought this was a good idea were appointed by Republicans: Scalia, Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Kennedy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: John P
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 08:13 PM

The Titanic is going down....but the band plays on.

and the funny thing is that you all proclaim that you want "CHANGE", in fact, that was Mr Obama's great rallying call, but you are really "ANTI-CHANGE".....you are mant times more conservative than the Conservatives.

Akenaton, can you explain any of this is light of everything that everyone has said on this thread? If you are going to say things like this, you need supply specific examples.

In what way am I being fooled?

What does the fact that there are people worse off than me have to do with anything, and what do you know about how I feel about it?

In what way am I opposed to change?

In some ways, I will accept that I am more conservative than the current "Conservatives", because the current batch are really economic and social radicals who want to destroy all the gains we've made in the last century. But I don't think that's what you meant, so you should prove that one as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 08:24 PM

""So Little Hawk and Akenaton, what are your short-term plans for dealing with the situation? What are your long-term plans?""

They don't actually have any plans.

Little Hawk just likes sitting on the sidelines pretending to be all wise and all knowing, but is, like many who enjoy stirring the pot, all show and no substance.

Ake just wants to tear the whole system apart and go live in a mud hut, snarling at strangers.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 08:31 PM

John P - I am truly puzzled by your post of 26 Feb 12 - 01:51 PM . You seem to assume in it that you and I disagree on a whole lot of fundamental stuff that in fact we agree on.

I don't get that.

I feel like you're arguing with someone else whom you have mistaken for me...or you think that I am someone very different from whom I actually am. It just doesn't connect.

You ask rhetorical questions that have no bearing on my actual position...although you clearly think that they do. And that sure does puzzle me. Perhaps you are mistaking my tone of voice or something?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 08:48 PM

To all the glib souls here who imagine something as ridiculous as that I should have a PLAN to deal with the political mess in the USA...LOL!...I repost this post I made to Bobert on the same subject....a post which you either never read or have convenienly forgotten.

And I shall post it again and yet again whenever one of you silly sods starts asking me what my PLAN (or solution) is.

Here it is (again):

Now, why the heck would you think I have a solution for the most gigantic problems of our time????????? You gotta be kidding. I am not Superman, Bobert.

I am someone who is pointing to a huge storm that is coming, and I'm saying to other people, "Hey, folks, there is a storm coming!" You think I have a solution for that storm?????

Get real.

I might turn your own question back on you and say, "What is YOUR solution, Bobert?"

;-)

See what I mean? It's laughable to think that people such as you and I can come up with a solution for the political-financial-military mess that is present day America in the 21st Century.

There are things that could be done..."your realistic plan for getting there"....but if I were to enunciate any of those, someone like yourself or Ebbie will simply post and say something like:

"...solutions that in literal fact will not happen" Like I said.

In other words, you're not actually ready to listen to anything that WOULD substantially change the sytem, because you don't think it's possible to do things like that.

Which means: you actually agree with me that people like us CAN'T really do anything about the basic situation...but in the meantime, you'd like to make yourself feel better by just doing a little re-arranging of the deck chairs on the Titanic...just so you can feel like good little progressives who are out there "doing something".

Well, that won't work. It won't affect the underlying and most basic issues of our time.

You are akin to a chicken flapping its wings in the face of an approaching hurricane, while peremptorily asking me (another chicken)..."What is your plan for stopping this hurricane?"

Like I said...Get real. You and I cannot stop this hurricane. We can only hope to ride it out, and make something good out of our own lives during the short time we have here. We are like the plebes in the dying Roman Empire. They couldn't stop what was happening any more than we can...but they could find love in their lives, find good relationships, and do something beautiful in their own lives, and that is what I am spending most of my time doing.

I just talk here because it's fun...it allows me to express who I am...and it can be interesting.

It is NOT going to change the fate of the American Empire. And I know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:04 PM

The problem, LH, is that you seem to lecturing those of US who are doing our best to wiggle this messed up country thru a very narrow channel... We don't need to be told over and over how narrow the channel is... We know it with every breath we breathe and with every bone on our bodies...

We don't need "classless and free" regurgitation of what our problems are... We ain't friggin' morons that need to be reminded...

We don't have a lot of choices here... We have a lot of bleeding and a major assault on our basic safety nets... Not major entitlements but basic developed nation safety nets...

Our country has the highest poverty rate on any western developed country in the world... This is by design...

We see what's the right is in position to do to US... Turn US into a 3rd world country... That ain't some over dramatized weepy thing... It is our reality...

We are trying to fend off the last assault... We don't have the luxuries that Canada has...

We are on the brink of losing a 70 year battle against the right wing corporatists...

Please do no patronize the few of us here who see that that narrow channel is closing fast and we got a lot bleeding to stop...

"Both side are this or that" are the words of those who want to close the channel...

Please don't patronize us... We have enough problems fighting these people without ya'll's classless and free advice...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:21 PM

Bobert, I do what everyone else in this world does. I talk about things I find interesting and things that I think are important and meaningful.

I am interested in the current political situation. I think it's important and meaningful.

That's why I talk about it. For that reason alone. Not to convert you or "lecture" you or change the world. But simply to express my own thoughts. Period.

I cannot help it if my honest opinions about politics and the thoughts that I have about politics ruffle your feathers in some way. That's life.

We all get the impression that other people are lecturing us from time to time. That's because thoughts that differ from our own jangle us a bit.

But that's life! (shrug) It happens, and it will keep happening. I see no way of avoiding it unless we simply stop talking to one another (and I am not suggesting that we should stop talking to one another).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:29 PM

I should add that I fully realize you are trying to fend off the last assault of the Right which is attempting to turn your country into a 3rd World society. And I sympathize (and empathize) with the spot you're in!

And how.

And I have no idea what to advise you to do about it, because like I said...I am not Superman.

I can only wish you the best of luck. If I were an American, I'd be helping Dennis Kucinich get re-elected. That's what I'd do about it.

As a Canadian, I'm not legally allowed to contribute to his campaign funding.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:30 PM

We've heard your song, LH...

It's become Bobby Goldsboro's "Honey" to progressives south of the border...

Time to work on some new material...

Serious business... Lots of us have tried to tell you that... You are way smarter than to to get stuck in a rut but your Cadillac has a rear wheel in the ditch...

Not personal... I love ya', man... Just expect more out of you... Things change... time marches on... You need some new material...

Sorry,

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:44 PM

Hey, man...but I feel exactly the same way about the stuff you guys keep saying. ("Aww...geez! Not that same old tired line again!") ;-D

So whatcha gonna do? Call Ghostbusters? We are just gonna hafta put up with the fact that we all keep saying the same damn things over and over again. I hear it's a characteristic of both humans and dogs. They repeat themselves.

I bet even Jesus and Buddha repeated themselves quite a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:56 PM

We don't need Ghostbusters... We need Republican PR-Busters... When you go into the "well, ah hem, the dems and repubs are both the same and work for the same guys" you are repeating the BIG LIE that the Repub PR have put out there...

There are choices now that are very real... The current Republican Party is more dangerous than any party since the Democrat Party of 1860...

This is our reality... We don't have a lot of time here... I every state where they have taken over statehouses they are trashing women and unions and anything that FDR would be about...

We are at war... We don't have time for Dennis Kucinich to ride in and save us... This is our reality... The Repubs have us pinned and they are about to drive the final stake thru our hearts, the New deal, unions, women, etc...

This is not time to stand on the sidelines and play like it ain't happening... It's happening in Ohio, in Wisconsin, in Virginia and other states... The Republicans want to strap women down and invade their bodies...

No time left for the classless and free discourse...

Time's up...

You are either part of the problem or part of the solution... Blaming Dems is part of the problem...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 11:24 PM

Bobert,

I am going to shut up and let you do all of the talking because you are nailing the shit out of it.

I got no time to argue with the high fallutins who like to demonstrate how enlightened and above it all they are. Fuckin right we are chickens flapping our wings against a hurricane. But we are flapping our wings, not our lips. Go Boberz.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 01:38 AM

Exactly so!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 03:40 AM

I have had an interest in politics for many years.
In the UK we had endured a long period of conservative rule, people were sick of Mrs Thatcher, and an ideology which punished the largest and poorest parts of society.....while the rich grew obscenely rich.

Then along came the great white hope a "centre left politician" who was to bring some sort of equality....sound familiar?
Of course it was Mr Blair, took us to war, shamed our nation, and sowed the seeds of the current financial "disaster".

The conservatives are now back, with policies even more draconian, and more importantly with the excuse to impliment them.

Now most grown ups would recognise that this state of affairs is systemic in nature and no matter what particular party is in power, they are confined by the perameters of the system.

If "change" is to be meaningful, this system has to be dismantled and re-constructed in a workable form, but none of the current parties are prepared to let this happen.....in fact we would be slaughtered in our thousands if we even attempted it.

But that should not preclude us from gaining an understanding of what the problem really is and would stop the idiocy of eternally swopping one band of parasites for another even more hypocritical one.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 08:51 AM

Bingo!

Thanks, Ake. Well said.

Okay, so Messrs. Don Firth, TIA, Bobert, and the rest of their "ilk" (in joke on Mudcat) are going to go on repeating their particular loyalty mantra forever and ever, and rushing heroically to the electoral barricades to get another phony Democratic president elected, imagining that that will somehow hold off the Neo-Con hordes...

And Ake and I and the rest of our "ilk" (most of whom live outside the USA) are going to go on repeating our particular mantra forever and ever, which is..."You guys in the USA are being had!"...

;-D

And Dschshunds will continue attempting to steal food off counters beyond their reach, pigs won't fly, and Israel will keep stealing their neighbour's land and killing 100 Palestinians for every Israeli that dies, and the USA will keep trying to relive the glory days of the Roman Empire.

Business as usual.

But let's try to have at least a little fun while we're doing it, okay?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 09:05 AM

Your conservative rule, Ake, compared to ours is quite moderate...

Our conservatives represent the NRA which is in business to sell handguns... There are more handguns owned by private US citizens than owned private and public for the entire rest of the world combined and we have 100,000 people shot every year as a result of it... That's our brand of conservatism...

Our conservatives think that the state should have the right to not only make decisions about women's health but also strap them down against their will and perform medical tests that penetrate her... That's out brand of conservatism...

Our conservatives have no problems selling our government to the highest bidders, be they domestic or foreign, without the voting public having the right to know who it is that is buying up the blocks of advertising time??? As far as our conservatives are concerned it could be al qeada or the Taliban buying chunks of our government... That's out brand of conservatism...

Out conservatives have rigged the deck so that the 1/2 of American people now live at 125% of the official (ha) poverty level or less which represents the highest per capital poverty level of any western so-called civilized country... And after rigging the deck they blame that 1/2 of the population for their plight??? That's our brand of conservatism...

Our conservatives are for denying health care to people who, frankly, cannot afford it and are on record of saying, "yeah, let them die in the streets"... That's our brand of conservatism...

Our conservatives love incarceration and they want it to be as long and as miserable as possible thinking that will teach people to behave better when every study show that the longer the incarceration the higher the recidivist rates??? That's our brand of conservatism...

Our conservatives think that disenfranchising voters who might vote against them is the best way to hold power... 70,000 black voters have been disenfranchised in South Carolina for the sin of being born at home 50, 60, 70 years ago when most black people were born at home... And these voters are people who have had the right to vote all their lives... It's now taken away... That's out brand of conservatism...

Our conservatives think apartheid is peachy in their book as schools are being re-segregated through out the South and in many mid-western states... That's our brand of conservatism...

I mean, I could go on and on, Ake... Unless you live here, you are clueless just how much our conservatives are like the Taliban...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 09:09 AM

Your conservatives are outright neo-Fascists, Bobert. I know it. I lived in upstate (rural) New York for 10 years and I saw it with my own eyes. I thank God I don't live there anymore...though it's a nice looking countryside, that's for sure. A lot of good land down there...too bad about the politics!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: John P
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 10:04 AM

I feel like you're arguing with someone else whom you have mistaken for me...or you think that I am someone very different from whom I actually am. It just doesn't connect.

LH, I'l try to connect the dots for you. Here's a couple small examples of why I and others express irritation/exasperation at you:

Which means: you actually agree with me that people like us CAN'T really do anything about the basic situation...but in the meantime, you'd like to make yourself feel better by just doing a little re-arranging of the deck chairs on the Titanic...just so you can feel like good little progressive who are out there "doing something".

Which is rude bullshit. Or:

Here's a tip: As long as the mighty imperial $ySStem that really runs your country can keep you battling each other in a futile divide over the utterly illusory choice between voting for a corporate-backed Democrat or a corporate-backed Republican...it will have you right where it wants you. Helpless and in its pocket.

Which is ignorant bullshit. And defeatist bullshit. So don't give me your little Bambi-in-the-headlights "Why are you mad at me?" deal. As Bobert says, you need some new material. And you need to learn how to talk politely and individually to the people you're talking to. You are, as has been noted many times, smarter than that. Or else you're the dumbest smart guy around.

When do you begin to get it? One more time, join in on the chorus, boys,

Gay rights aren't a "futile divide over the utterly illusory choice" or "a little re-arranging of the deck chairs".

Reproductive rights aren't a "futile divide over the utterly illusory choice" or "a little re-arranging of the deck chairs".

Separation of church and state isn't a "futile divide over the utterly illusory choice" or "a little re-arranging of the deck chairs".

War isn't a "futile divide over the utterly illusory choice" or "a little re-arranging of the deck chairs".

Income equality isn't a "futile divide over the utterly illusory choice" or "a little re-arranging of the deck chairs".

And when you keep saying they are, you become a REALLY big part of the problem. Reducing these things to being equal with their opposite supports the people who are happy with the status quo. Supposedly independent thinkers who support the idea that the Republican ideas are the same as the Democratic ideas are worse than the blinkered Republicans themselves.

When you keep saying that black is the same as white in such rude terms, people not only see you as part of the problem, but as an unusually irritating part of the problem.

This is how it connects.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 10:13 AM

"Your conservatives are outright neo-Fascists, Bobert. I know it. I lived in upstate (rural) New York for 10 years and I saw it with my own eyes"

And against them apparently we should not "rushing heroically to the electoral barricades"

And those statements only separated by eight minutes.

What the F do you think you are talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: John P
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 10:14 AM

I see no way of avoiding it unless we simply stop talking to one another (and I am not suggesting that we should stop talking to one another).

You could also try talking about the subject at hand instead of running your tired old trip over and over and over. You could try actually talking to the people you're talking to. You seem to have this mistaken idea that you've been joining in the conversation. In short, the way to avoid it is to avoid it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 10:28 AM

Lot of good land and a lot of good people. The Constitution is a thing of the past, and that was the last remaining barrier protecting folks, average people who want lives of relative safety. The power of the Constitution has been being stripped away for decades, and no one will like the results.

The following may help explain:

""A Presidential Executive Order, whether Constitutional or not, becomes law simply by its publication in the Federal Registry." Congress can still attempt to block "by passing legislation in conflict with it" refusing to fund or enforce the law. Even with that the President has the power of the Veto. Congress can attempt to override the veto but that requires a two-thirds majority. Only two executive orders have ever been overturned.

Here are just a few Executive Orders that would suspend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These Executive Orders have been on record for nearly 30 years and could be enacted by the stroke of a Presidential pen:

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President."


At present there exist approximately 600 to 800 'relocation centers' in the USA controlled by FEMA. Were I you, I would want to know who controls FEMA/DHS/ICE. Call both your Senators and your Congressmen/women and ask. Let me know what your Senators and Congressman/women say. The EOs have been on the books for years. But until now the camps haven't been ready. They are ready now.

I am in agreement with Bobert on one thing: knowledgeable people like him are desperate and for good reason. In this election it is important that Obama be re-elected. But more important will be the elections after--because even if all good guys and gals got in this election--it would not change the balance of power in either the Senate or the House. Without a good Congress, you could have Jesus H Christ hisself in the Oval Office and things would not improve. I don't think there is sufficient time for that to occur. The second-to-last nail in the coffin is suspension of habeas corpus. The last nail will be a situation of extreme national emergency, either real or fabricated. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: John P
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 10:55 AM

Thanks, 999. That's one of the reasons I almost always vote for Democrats, even though I don't consider myself a Democrat (for all the reaons LH et al have been expounding). I can easily see our current crop of Republicans carrying out the take-over scenario you describe. I can't see the Democrats doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 11:04 AM

Interesting that you bring up "habeas corpus", brucie because according the the Supreme Thugs with their "Citizen's United" you can be accused of anything your accusers want to accuse you of having done or not done and you don't have the right to even know who the accusers are or, umless you have as much $$$ as these secret accusers are, the means to defend yourself???

That is 100% F'd up!!!

Impeach Alito and Roberts for lieing in their Senate Confirmation hearings... They are not judges... They are crooks and nothing but partisan water boys...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:06 PM

Hear I go rushing to the barricades again...

"The Pennsylvania House of Representatives is poised to pass HB 1077, which requires all women seeking an abortion to be subjected to a mandatory ultrasound at least 24 hours prior to having the abortion.

The bill would subject women to invasive, transvaginal ultrasounds, requires the ultrasound screen to be aimed toward the woman's face, and requires that she deliver a print of the image to her physician in order to have the procedure.

This bill operates under the guise that women aren't smart enough to understand their own bodies. The Pennsylvania Medical Society and other medical groups have already come out in opposition to this incredible violation of the physician/patient relationship."

Guess which party introduced and is pushing this. G'head, guess.

Just because our political system is thoroughly corrupted (thanks Supremes) should we not oppose this crap?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:51 PM

There are good arguments against the promotion of homosexuality in our society
There are two sides to the abortion issue.
Complete separation of church and state may make society even more empty and easier prey than it is at present.

War and income inequality are cornerstones of the system you seek to support.

You are a "one trick pony"......forget your obsession, try to understand that this battle is not about the ridiculous issue of "gay rights"......but survival.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 01:16 PM

John J, Bobert and TIA, thank you.

"Just because our political system is thoroughly corrupted (thanks Supremes) should we not oppose this crap?"

The question is rhetorical, but it's a damned good one. For six years I have been thinking about how best (most effectively) to oppose this. I have concluded it's lots simpler than any of us know. CONTAIN THEIR POWER!

The easiest way to defeat a soldier with a night sight is to strike a match. Light on the subject! His eyes will be blinded for long enough that you can get out of Dodge.

In this instance, were I an American, I would be mobilizing my friends of like concern all across the USA and asking them to call their Congressmen/women, Senators and Governors (whom I understand also have the 'right' to invoke Executive Orders that pertain to their State).

Call about what?

1) Well, call about he question I think is of paramount importance: Who controls FEMA? Who controls DHS? Who controls ICE? It does not matter whether your representatives are Republicans, Democrats or Independents. What matters is the call. They will know that YOU know.

2) You will require a Bill before your Legislative bodies that rescinds all Executive Orders to date that pertain to the Constitution, and disallows any in future that infringe, alter the intent or change the meaning of the Constitution if even ONE elected member of the House or Senate abstains from voting or votes against it.

3) When is the time to begin this? NOW!

It is unwise to allow your adversary to choose the time and place of 'battle'. Your opponent will choose a time propitious to himself and his efforts. Reacting to the situation will, in this scenario, mean you have waited too long. MAKE this the topic of discussion in America, but soon, like in the next few days. These bastards CAN be beat, but they won't be unless they are fought against by YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 05:09 PM

"John J, Bobert and TIA, thank you."

John P, that is twice I have messed up your name. The other was when I referred to you as John B. However, I'm getting better in that the J is closer to the P than the B was.

My apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 05:54 PM

Here's an idea: For every abortion there is a corresponding castration of the father...

End of discussion...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 10:52 PM

Could you elaborate on that some, Bobert?

John P - I wasn't being a "deer in the headlights". I was being mildly humorous. You and I actually agree about a great deal, but you only notice the parts of my posts that you don't agree with, and you get REALLY UPSET ABOUT THEM! Don't. It's bad for your health.

Nothing any of us say here is worth getting upset about or losing any sleep over. It's just a bunch of reaction-counter-reaction bla bla on a transitory keyboard, and it won't change anything, so don't sweat it. I'm not upset about you. I can't see any use in you being upset about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 11:07 PM

Yeah, LH... Woman cannot get pregnant by themselves, right???

Yet when the chips are down it is the woman who has to make the though choice...

The father??? Gets off Scott free... No repercussions... He can go outg and knock up another 100 women who will be trashed by the right wing...

No!!!

If the baby is so fuck0ing important than if it is to be aborted and in so invading a woman's body then, hey, the other side of the coin is the father who was the other 1/2 of the deal...

Make the father's equally responsible: Castration!!!

End of discussion... End of men saying that women are the quilty... End of Taliban mindset...

Castration!!!

yeah, if we're going to play Taliban than play it both ways!!!

End of discussion... End of Republicans punishing women... End!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 11:26 PM

Okay. I see your point.

Does this mean that all Republicans hate women?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 11:50 PM

I will answer for Bobert (but he can also answer for himself if he wishes).

An analogy:

Not all Republicans are ignorant and racist, but if you are ignorant and racist, you are more likely to be Republican.

Not all Republicans hate (or perhaps more accurately - have no respect for) women, but if you have no respect for women, you are more likely to be Republican.

Did I get that about right Bobzers?

And this is an example of where the "both sides are guilty" shit breaks down. This is not a "two sides of the coin" difference. It is a fundamental, unequatable difference. Thus, even though I have had the shits of Obama's capitulation tactics, and wish someone else where running for Prez, your goddam right I will run to the barricades to keep those ignorant jerks and their anti-woman health care laws out of my daughters' vaginas.

And I am not upset at you or losing sleep over you (no offense).

Santorum? Perhaps I am...




Just one more. On the subject of the Koran burnings in Afghanistan, Santorum said on one of the Sunday News shows..."I'm not sure the President should be apologizing for something that was a mistake..."

What?!?! I hope Santorum's wife kicks the shit out of him for having that attitude. Yup, never apologize unless you *meant* to do it, because then you have no reason to apologize, or...oh hell never mind...it's pure drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 11:59 PM

Hey, guess what, TIA? I agree with all that stuff you just posted.

I've always said the Republicans were way worse than the Democrats.

I've never said they were equal in their respective iniquity.

I fairly much detest the Democrats (the party, I mean)...yes...but I ABSOLUTELY HATE the F-ing Republicans (the party, I mean) to the very marrow of my bones. I consider them as I would the Nazi Party.

We agree!!! Smile! It's good for your health. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: John P
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 08:50 AM

And this is an example of where the "both sides are guilty" shit breaks down. This is not a "two sides of the coin" difference.

Hey, guess what, TIA? I agree with all that stuff you just posted.

. . . but in the meantime, you'd like to make yourself feel better by just doing a little re-arranging of the deck chairs on the Titanic...just so you can feel like good little progressive who are out there "doing something". . . . As long as the mighty imperial $ySStem that really runs your country can keep you battling each other in a futile divide over the utterly illusory choice . . .

Hmm, perhaps you don't agree with everything she just posted, LH?

By the way, another annoying thing about your conversational skills is your penchant for deciding and then telling people what's going on in their own heads and why it's making them say the things they say.

I, also, am not upset or losing sleep over you. You are irritating, that's all. And you are preaching a message that supports the people who want to control my life. Until you can get that through your head -- and do something about it -- you will continue to have people responding badly to you in conversations where you basically agree with what they are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 10:57 AM

Yeah, TIA, you got it about right and I'm sticking with my idea of 1 abortion = 1 castration... This will end this Taliban thinking that way too many Republicans are into...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 12:13 PM

Have any of you called your senators and congressmen/women to ask who controls FEMA/DHS/ICE? If so, what have you been told?

I'm getting the distinct feeling people are afraid to speak with their representatives about it. If so--and I don't blame you--doesn't THAT tell y'all something?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 01:31 PM

I know that something is buggin' you about these, bruice, so spill the beans... BTW, FEMA is part of DHS and Janet Napolitano is Secretary of DHS...

But if you have something, spill it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 01:52 PM

Fortunately, the US today has an alternative to its corruption and war-mongering, Bernie Sanders, in the Senate, Barbara Lee in the House, Kucinich, John Lewis of Georgia but the main impetus for social change lies with the Occupy Wall Street Movement which is dedicating itself to an alternative democracy in opposition to the corruption in Washington.

In the Occupy movement, we are all leaders and followers. The General Assembly is a tribute to what real democracy looks like and there is a revolution going on today in the US that can replace the hardened political process that we see in the Executive Branch, the Senate, Congress, and Supreme Court.

Occupy has already influenced the political process here and will continue to do so. Young people all over the world have had a taste of what genuine activism can bring from Egypt to Wall Street and it will only grow stronger.

It may not take the same form as it has now but will become more potent in future years.
Because this is true, the US is not finished by any means. Our Constitution is still vibrant and flexible.

The truth doesn't lie in party politics or existing government that is controlled by corporations, energy, MIC, or Citizens United rulings.

Resistance is a fact of American democracy today as it was in Poland under Communist dictatorship or Mubarak's domination.

You will also see the growth of trade unionism in the US when workers own their condition.

There will be struggles but growth.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 04:19 PM

I do not support the people who want to control your life, John.

The only person I can think of in USA politics whom I support without reservation is Dennis Kucinich. He does not want to control your life. I am deeply and fundamentally opposed to ALL the people who want to control your life...and mine...simply to enrich themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 04:27 PM

And I do support the Occupy movement.

I do not support the big political parties, because I know who they work for...not for you and me, that's for sure! There is occasionally an individual candidate within one of the political parties who I will support. Dennis Kucinich is one such. I don't support him on account of his Democratic party affiliation, but on account of his stated ideals and his record while in office.

I would support him no matter what party he was in...because of who and what he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 04:57 PM

Support him, yes. But knowing that he hasn't a ghost of a chance of becoming President?

And even if he DID somehow become president, he would run into the same stone wall that Barack Obama did?

Barack Obama is fine. What we need to do is replace Congress!

(Elementary, my dear Little Hawk.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 06:49 PM

Does anyone know WHO controls the organizations I mentioned, and has ANYone called?

Jesus fucking Christ, answer the question! I have been asking for three FUCKING YEARS!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 06:54 PM

Have any of you called your senators and congressmen/women to ask who controls FEMA/DHS/ICE? If so, what have you been told?

I'm getting the distinct feeling people are afraid to speak with their representatives about it. If so--and I don't blame you--doesn't THAT tell y'all something?



Talk is cheap, 'cept when ya gotta make the call.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 07:16 PM

DHS is controlled by various factions and people... Ya' have to remember that it was several existing agencies pulled into one with a cabinet level Secretary in Janet Napolitano... The President has some ultimate control, however, Congress has it fingers in the pie along with career bureaucrats...

I mean, it ain't some "shadow government", brucie...

What am I missing in your question???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 10:38 PM

999-
Not to get you even more upset, but here's (an absolutley true) anecdote...

I am a scientist (anyone surprised?) doing research in physics, aimed at detecting hiddent objects.

Did some online (Jstor, ISI, etc.) research into IEDs, and within 24 hours, I got a call from DHS asking why I was visiting various websites. No shit. Really happened. Big Brother is not just watching, he has his hand around your prick...(and they just heard/read me saying that). Hi boys!!!!! It's TIA typing IED again. Call me!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 10:54 PM

Dear Guys,

Am I to understand by these remarks that

1) no one has dared call a representative?

2) I should fuck off?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 11:00 PM

Callin' my North Carolina representative is a waste of time... I'd be better off asking a rock...

What's the deal, brucie???

Seriously, man???

Where are you going with this??? Gimme a clue and I'll help... PM me a clue and I'll help... Send me a postcard and I'll help...

Sorry... I am clueless on this one???

B???

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 11:46 PM

So what's the question? Who runs the terror network in America?

We have two governments--our traditional elected government, and the shadow government. "Shadow government" is not a conspiracist term. It an acknowledged fact.

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7lTtqU1PjWIAg1VXNyoA?p=jack+brooks+rex+84&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701&type_param=

Yahoo links to congressman Jack Brooks in a congressional session in 1987. Arch-traitor Ollie North was involved in setting up a secret arrest and detention program called Rex 84, and when Brooks asked about it, North and Inouye wouldn't answer his questions. Look at that clip. Brooks is saying a secret government was front page national news that day, yet North refused to talk about it. 25 years ago.

Rex 84 was set up to deal with "illegals" from Mexico. Round them up and detain them. Those plans have blossomed to the point where now Obama says that he can kill or "disappear" any American he deems to be a "terrorist." And the Dept of Defense and Haliburton are hiring "internment and relocation specialists" for FEMA camps.

Anyway, the US has 2 governments, and the shadow government is taking over the elected government. All our candidates are CIA spooks, like the Bushes, Obama, Clinton.

What can be done....be aware that your local sheriff is the ultimate authority in your county. Your sheriff has more power in your county than the president of the U.S. Talk to your sheriff and make sure he's aware of this. There are lots of sheriffs' organizations on the internet that explain and promote this stuff. I think there are 2600 counties and parishes in the U.S., so that's 2,600 people who can overrule the president on anything. Anything. Make sure your sheriff is aware of the constitutional protections his people have, and make him aware of illegal actions like the NDAA, PATRIOT Act and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 12:07 AM

The shadow government *is* the 1%.

And your sheriff and DHS already have drones (UAVs) that make sure you toe the line.

Obama is not stopping it, but I'd rather have him than Santorum doing the same *plus* sticking a probe up my daughters' vaginas in the name of purity.

If I can choose to live in 1984 plus Handmaid's Tale or just 1984, I will rush to the barricades for 1984 (to F Handmaid's Tale) and at every opportunity I will also rush to the barricades to fight 1984.

No offense LH, but are you seriously advocating that we should not fight because it is hopeless (or that we should vote for an admirable no-chance-in-hell purely on principle while the probes go up the vaginas? I really do want to understand the philosophy behind your disdain.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 02:02 AM

I don't get this negative attitude you have toward me personally, TIA. I agree with you on all these concerns you are mentioning in your last post. I cannot fathom how you think I don't agree with you or what the hell you are talking about regarding my supposed "disdain" (for what???). I disdain the 2 big political parties...yes!...because they've sold out to lobbyists. I don't disdain YOU.

It was I who asked Bobert if he'd read Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine", because I think it's an absolutely brilliant book and expose' that everyone should read. You apparently think so too. Where the hell do you think we disagree on that?

Where do you think I'm telling you to "give up"? I am NOT telling you to give up.

I'm not saying you should vote for Kucinich for president! There's utterly no chance of him becoming president in corporate Amerika. I'm saying you could contribute to getting him re-elected in his present riding, for Chrissake!

They have gerrymandered his old riding so as to deprive him of many votes, and they are slandering him on TV with all kinds of utterly false accusations. He needs help right NOW from many other Americans to get re-elected to the House of Representatives! Not to the presidency.

Now, understand: unlike you, I am not an American. I don't live in the USA. And thank God for that! If I did, I'd be trying to get out to some other country if I possibly could. I don't doubt that "they" (you know who) called you up about those websites you were visiting.

And, yes, the 1% IS your shadow government. But it is not my position to tell YOU or anyone else in the USA what to do about it. That you have to decide for yourself. If you wish to openly fight them (in what manner?)...that's your decision. And you have to decide how you're going to do it. I am not going to advise you one way or the other about it, because only you can make a decision like that. I would not presume to advise you on a matter that could well cost you your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 02:07 AM

I got a little charged up there. But not because I have anything against you, TIA. I just don't enjoy being extremely misunderstood as regards both my motivations and my intentions. I am not against you. Matter of fact, it looks to me like we are very much on the same side.

But I don't live in the USA. That puts us in a rather different spot in a number of respects.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:30 AM

Well, FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) and ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) are now part of the Department of Homeland Security, which was formed in 2002. Immigration came from the Department of Justice, Customs from Treasury, and FEMA had been an independent agency.

Former Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano has been United States Secretary of Homeland Security since January, 2009. She was appointed by President Barack Obama and confirmed by the U.S. Senate. It seems to me that she's doing a pretty good job.

Over a period of 30 years, I did security clearance investigations on hundreds of employees of Customs, Immigration, and FEMA - including people at the highest levels of management. With few exceptions, these employees were decent people doing a pretty good job, dedicated to serving the public. Nonetheless, there were lots of things I didn't like about aspects of these agencies, particularly Immigration. I'm not likely to believe any conspiracy theories about these agencies, though. They had normal problems, nothing disastrous.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 08:35 AM

Yeah, Joe, I purdy much posted that already... The DHS is more a reshuffling than anything new...The Coast Guard, if I am not mistaken, is also now under DHS...


B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: John P
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 09:34 AM

Little Hawk, it's not about you personally. For my part, I like you and find you mostly charming and witty. The reason people keep picking at you is because you, on every political thread you can shoehorn it into, go on about how we're all a bunch of automatons who are being lead around by the nose and whose struggles are manufactured by the ruling rich corporations to keep us busy while they raid the henhouse. You always manage to mention how the Republicans and the Democrats are all the same. And that's the problem. I said this yesterday without getting any response from you: when you, an intelligent and erudite man with advanced writing skills and an air of being fair an balanced, write that the politicians are all the same and that issues of the day are unimportant, you are in support of the people who want to take over our lives. A basic part of their lie is that we do the same things they do. They want us to believe that the problems in Congress are due to partisanship and not to obstructive Republicans, etc etc. Every time someone like you makes the claims you make, their basic lie gets a boost in believability.

We all know you're a nice, thoughtful person. We all know you basically agree with us on these issues. We all also know that you regularly denigrate the issues that have huge impacts on our lives as well as our efforts to do something about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: pdq
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:16 AM

Here is a great place to find out...


                                                                         ...what departments went into making Homeland Security

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:30 AM

Hmmm. Okay, John. Perhaps I, in my deep frustration with what's going on in the world, am just getting a bit carried away at times with my own rhetoric here. That tends to happen when a person gets angry, and I get very angry at what's going on in the halls of power all across this world.

I've been reading "The Shock Doctrine" and it's been making me really angry about what happened down in Latin America, starting on September 11, 1973 with the violent overthrow of the democratically elected Allende government in Chile by a group of Army officers...then being followed by other military takeovers in Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay over the next decade. Those countries were prosperous and happy before the military takeovers, with a rapidly growing middle class and rapidly improving economies that benefited the entire public. They had democratically elected governments which were strongly supported by the vast majority of citizens.

After the coups, all of which were orchestrated by alumni of Milton Friedman's Chicago School of Economics and put into motion by well-trained CIA agents backed by thugs in the Latin American military forces of the respective countries, those countries faced mass arrests, torture of hundreds of thousands of innocent citizens, execution/disappearance of tens of thousands, and the establishment of military dictatorships which were mostly praised in the USA mass media at the time. This was supposedly done to establish FREEDOM!

Talk about employing the BIG LIE principle! And who did those takeovers benefit? They benefited a tiny rich elite, they impoverished the rest of the public, and they opened the door to privatization of public industries and institutions and takeover of those industries and national resources by a consortium of huge American corporations!

It's been the organized rape of the world for the sake of corporate profits. It's been going on since the end of WWII (it started off in Iran with a CIA-backed coup against a democratically elected secular government). No American president has stood up to stop it.

This enrages me. Rage drives people sometimes to bitter and harsh rhetoric.

If my harsh rhetoric has offended any of you, I regret it. My anger is not aimed at you, it's aimed at the overall system we live under.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 01:06 PM

They all support that system Little Hawk and any attack on it is perceived as an attack on them personally.

You have absolutely nothing to apologise for, rather we should be commending you on your insight.

Keep flying free!!    :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:51 PM

Oh Bull, Ake...

I agree wholeheartedly with John... The Republican PR machine has put out this idea that both parties are guilty and that there is rampant partisanship on both sides... That is mythology... There is rampant partisanship on one side but if the Republican PR folks can get enough parrots on board to repeat their BIG LIE then they have leveled the palying field in the eyes of the voters and will not be punished for their bad behavior/s...

Exhibit A: During the debt ceiling slobber-knocker that the Republicans ***manufactured*** the following occurred:

1. The Republicans demanded a "large deal"

2. Obama and the Dems said, "Okay, let's do it"

3. The the Republicans demanded that medicare and Social Security be on the table.

4. Obama and the Dems said, "okay, let's do it"

5. The the Republicans said, "Ya'll give eeverything and we ain't giving you shit... Not one dime!!!"

6. Then the United States credit rating was down-graded...

7. Then the Repubs demanded a short deal...

8. Obama and the Dems said, "Okay, let's do it"

This is purdy much what has been going on since Obama was elected... Dems have given and given and given and the Repubs have taken and taken and taken...

And now they want everyone to think that both side have misbehaved???

Give my ol' hillbilly butt a break... And no... I don't wnat to buy your friggin' bridge, either...

Sheesh...

And for all the "Both Sides Parrots"??? Bite me!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 06:32 PM

Ake's solution to the problems of the world is to storm the Winter Palace.

It's been done, Ake. What it produced was Joe Stalin and the Soviet Union. Didn't work out real well, did it?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 07:04 PM

BTW...

...200...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 07:05 PM

It worked out well in Cuba, Don. That's basically what Castro did, he "stormed the palace" though it took several years for him to do it, not one day. I've been to Cuba, and I approve of what their revolution accomplished.

It worked for American revolutionaries too...in the late 1700s...and Americans all claim NOW to be in favor of that violent revolution.

It worked for Oliver Cromwell. It worked for the nobles who forced the King to sign the Magna Carta in England.

It worked for the French in their revolution (though the period of transition to a republic was brutal...but in the end it produced a true republic which was far better than what had preceded it.

It worked in Nationalist Spain until Franco and Hitler helped crush that popular revolution.

It worked all over Latin America in the 1800s. Simon Bolivar and other revolutionaries like him are still heroes down there.

It has partially worked in Egypt recently (but they've got a long way to go). It appears to have succeeded in Lybia (though the results are highly suspect, in my opinion. It seems to be underway in Syria...again the process is suspect in certain respects.)

In any case it (revolution) has worked in hundreds of places where it produced positive change. Why do you ignore all the places where it has worked (including your own country!) and point only to the excessive brutalities of Lenin and Stalin?

Has revolution become "unfashionable" in the America that was born out of a revolution? And why would that be? Think about it. Established powers and elites guard their turf jealously...and they ALWAYS oppose any notion of a revolution on their own ground. They might lose their special privileges if that happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 07:40 PM

Don's post was obviously about communism, LH... Cuba??? Check... The rest??? No...

As for revolution??? I donno if overthrowing an existing regime is automatically a "revolution"... I'm sure you will agree that most aren't...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 08:41 PM

Bobert got it, Little Hawk.

Ake has indicated a number of times that he's one of those who won't be happy until blood runs in the streets. Even if there are less violent ways of accomplishing the goal.

Same sort of arguments as the guys who hung out for years in the back booth of Seattle's infamous Blue Moon Tavern. Avowed Communists. They'd plot. Week after week, year after year, they'd plot. But nobody ever did anything.

Except drink whole oceans of beer.

I've heard the lingo. I recognize it.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, if Cuba is such a People's Paradise, why did so many thousands of people risk their lives by climbing into row boats, take to the open sea, and try to row to Florida? It still happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 09:43 PM

I'm not necessarily defending Akenaton's personal view of revolution, Don...I'm just wondering why the only example of revolution you thought to quote was what happened in the Soviet Union?

There are many forms of revolution. They don't all require blood to be flowing in the street. The Occupy movement is an attempt at a nonviolent revolution of sorts, is it not? Any great change in human affairs can be considered a revolution...the word means "a great turn of events". One can have a revolution in social philosophy too. It doesn't have to involve bloodshed.

So why did you only think of Lenin's and Stalin's version of it?

As for Cuba, it's not perfect. No place is. But it's way, WAY better off than it would have been if Batista and his USA criminal business and army buddies had not been replaced by Castro's revolution. WAY better off. I've been there. I have some basis for saying this. Cubans are immeasurably better off than they would have been without Castro. Why do many of them try to reach Florida? For the same reasons that a vastly greater number of OTHER Latin Americans try to get into the USA through Mexico!

And the reasons for that are so many and so obvious that I really don't even see why I should continue tiring out my fingers explaining them to you or anyone else here. They are looking for a variety of things, material and otherwise, that they figure they might be able to find in the USA, that's why. NOT just Cubans, Don. MILLIONS of Latin Americans from a whole bunch of countries that are poorer on average than we in North America are. And the Cubans are better off than most of them. Cuba is safe. It's not full of drug wars like Mexico. Its streets are safe. Its people have free and good medical care of every sort, very cheap utilities and rent, a place to live, available work, and free education for everyone right through university. Who else in the world has that? They train more doctors per capita than any other nation in the world (and a majority of them are women).

You point to people who have fled Cuba. Don, people have fled the USA for political reasons too. Good people. Ever since Vietnam. And I know some of them. I am glad they're here.

I also know Cubans, brave people with high ideals, who came here to Canada to visit. They did not seek to be "refugees" here while visiting, they went back to Cuba with no regrets at all, because they are proud of their society and they believe in it. I hope you get to meet some of them one day and they can tell you why it is that they are proud of Cuba. They remember what it was like before Castro.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:05 PM

You know, Little Hawk, one of the major things that makes you a royal pain in the ass sometimes is that you insist on lecturing people about things they ALREADY KNOW.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:10 PM

But lots of times when you go into your professorial/guru mode, you get it way wrong.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:58 PM

LH,
I do think we are on the same team. I appreciate that you are getting angry reading Shock Doctrine...I read it 2 years ago and got angry also. I think we would agree on nearly everything. Don Firth makes a really good point above - sometimes (however well meaning and intelligent I am convinced you are) you do seem to lecture us about things that we are perfectly well aware of, have thought deeply about, and have devised the best strategy available to us to try to change it. Trust me, I am no automaton. If DHS has a file on anyone - they have a thick one on me. I have been "visited". No shit.
I am perfectly aware that our government (Obama included) is bought and paid for. We are not a Democracy anymore. And that is largely due to the makeup of the Supreme court. Shall I throw up may hands and let President Santorum pick the next two Justices? Really - how do you answer that?
Never assume that because we are involved in US politics and prefer certain outcomes that we are uninformed or knee-jerkers. I and many whom you occasionally (and perhaps unintentionally) denigrate are fully informed. I have even met Naomi Wolff, and Bill McKibben, and Mohammed Yunus, and (... I am bragging....) Naomi is a brilliant Canadian as I am sure you know.
So if I appear annoyed at you sometimes, it is not because I disagree with you, it is because you seem to make certain assumptions about me. And perhaps in saying that I am making certain assumptions about you...sorry.
John P has it just perfect above. In current US Politics, Dems are not the same but opposite of Repubs. Dems are corrupt and need to go, but FSM help us all if we decide that the bastards are all the same and let the Repubs take over. Simple question - would you ever ever ever consider moving back to the USA if there is a Repub President, Senate, and House, and they have appointed all the Supremes?
Of course you wouldn't. In fact I would be in Canada a block or so down from you.

And in closing:
"They all support that system Little Hawk and any attack on it is perceived as an attack on them personally"
Thanks Akenaton - you are just an ignorant ass who displays no understanding of US politics. You apply your own definitons and assumptions and think you have it all figured out. I thank FSM that you do not vote here. F-up your own country while we try to fix ours. Thanks very much. Buh Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:13 PM

An interesting example of a sheriff exercising his authority in his county.

Sheriff Arpaio was asked by his constituency to look into the matter of Obama's eligibility to serve as president. Tomorrow Arpaio releases his findings. Federal courts keep blocking cases regarding this (big government will protect big government), but the feds can't stop this sheriff. It's a county matter, not a federal matter.

Obama's furious about it. Throwing hissy fits and playing race cards right and left. Pretty amusing.

http://www.wnd.com/2011/10/352109/

But my point is, if Obama's so powerful, then why doesn't he just put a stop to this event tomorrow? Because he can't. He's just the president, but Arpaio is the sheriff of his county. He word is final.

You can put pressure on your local sheriff to disregard abusive and illegal federal legislation. That's the way to deal with the abuses of big government in your life.

One of the points I find interesting in the Obama eligibility mess is that his bogus social security card has Connecticut numbers. That's the one state in the union that did away with their sheriffs.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Songwronger
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:26 PM

Here's my favorite current piece from AttackWatch.com:

Romney team falsely compares unemployment aid to the iceberg that hit the Titanic

Mitt Romney's team attacked the President for extending unemployment insurance because saying that the program helps the economy is like "saying an iceberg stimulated the Titanic."

TRUTH TEAM RESPONSE: The facts don't help Romney's attack stay afloat because, in reality, unemployment insurance gives a verifiable and significant boost to the economy.

lol. Unemployment stimulates the economy. heysoosfreekinchreestos.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 01:01 AM

Spew, spew, spew.

Perfect example.

Is this simply the other side of a symmetrical coin?

Discuss amongst yourselves.

(and Akenaton, please jump in and label this as a reflexive defense of Obama and the system. But remember...if you do, you prove my point). Go!


P.S.
Nice try SongStupidDistorterWronger

"unemployment insurance gives a verifiable and significant boost to the economy"

is not the same as

"Unemployment stimulates the economy"

Unless of course you do not understand logic and rhetoric.

You are either stupid or manipulative or both, please choose which.
Thanks.

And LH - do you view this as a defense of logic or a defense of Obama...think first, then answer because this is exactly the point of our recent discussions.
Thanks and respect,
TIA

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:56 AM

Thanks, TIA...

Looks like I can take the day off...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 05:54 PM

"Blood running in the streets"....you must be fuckin' mad Don, why would I want that, when it would certainly be our own blood?

They have all the guns, are well organised and willing to hang on to power at any cost(that means our lives or our liberty).
Do you not understand that should the need arise the "nice" Democrats are as likely as the Republicans to slaughter us where we stand.
Preservation of the present system is all important to those who control Global Capitalism, as little Hawk says they do that at present by keeping the people divided.....by creating diversions...by manipulation of every one of us through the use of money..."equality", "race","gender" all the "liberal" buzzwords.

It will take decades to change this system, and it will only happened through unity....if we continue to fight one another over these phoney divisions, we are doomed to be continually oppressed.

All over the Western developed nations, the left are in the minority.....dont you realise that the UK and US are deeply conservative and those who vote Conservative are manipulated in the same way as we on the left.
Until we grow up enough to accept that fact and use it to our advantage against the machine we can never win.

My philosophy is not to start a war, but start ordinary people of both left and right, thinking about the future, working out what the REAL problems are and recognising false trails.
Adherance to the policies of either of the political parties is one of the biggest impediments to clear thought.
There has never been a better time in my life to start on a new road, the system is weak....but still dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: number 6
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:28 PM

"My philosophy is not to start a war, but start ordinary people of both left and right, thinking about the future, working out what the REAL problems are and recognising false trails.
Adherance to the policies of either of the political parties is one of the biggest impediments to clear thought.
There has never been a better time in my life to start on a new road, the system is weak....but still dangerous. "

Exactly Ak ..... I agree with that 100% .... right on.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: John P
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 07:41 PM

Adherance to the policies of either of the political parties is one of the biggest impediments to clear thought.

Who are you talking about? Everyone on this thread has made it very clear that they don't adhere to the policies of any political party because the parties are corrupt and part of the problem. It sounds like you may be confusing human rights with partisan politics.

Nice job of proving Tia correct, by the way!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 07:59 PM

""It worked for Oliver Cromwell. It worked for the nobles who forced the King to sign the Magna Carta in England.""

Only insofar as the King went from a position of divine right to a constitutional monarchy.

The period under Cromwell's rule was a period of murder, mayhem and oppression, relieved only by his timely demise.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:06 PM

Those (especiallyi Little Hawk and Ake) who keep beating the humdrum about how both parties are totally corrupt and we must change the system are preaching to the choir.

We know that!!

What they are really short on is HOW we are to go about changing the system.

It doesn't take a genius to point out the problem. Especially when they do it in thread after thread, and in all of that verbiage, not one suggestion other than "Vote for Dennis Kucinich" or "Gotta have a revolution."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:11 PM

""You are either stupid or manipulative or both, please choose which.
Thanks.""

Manipulative certainly TIA, but he will need a radical brain transplant to qualify as stupid.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 11:02 AM

THIS is the man y'all need as president.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 11:56 AM

You know, it strikes me that it is not at all surprising that any agency charged with the security of a nation should be interested in repeated visits online, or wherever, by anyone , professional or not. It seems to me that far from being harmful or BigBrotherish it is beneficial and to be expected. This is the Computer Age, after all.

I don't mean harassment in any sense but contact, yes.

Otherwise, when some individual or bloc carries out a plot, we would be saying: Wasn't anyone watching?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 12:36 PM

"Manipulative certainly TIA, but he will need a radical brain transplant to qualify as stupid."

Think I've solved that problem Don...you could offer to be the donor!
;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 01:08 PM

Ake, you're all heart.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 06:13 PM

The problem with the Big Brother stuff is that Bush pushed it thru, against standing FISA requirements that a search warrant be secured and now we are stuck with it... If Obama were to try to go back to the FISA days guess what the right would be using as their centerpiece for the 2012 election???I can hear the ads now...

"Obama want the underwear bomber to succeed next time... Call the White House and tell President Obama that you don't want your children blown up on an airliner"...

BTW, lots of us on the left are hoping there is a Trajan Horse aspect to Obama...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Truth Team (join me!)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 12:28 PM

""Think I've solved that problem Don...you could offer to be the donor!""

Sorry Ake, I'm saving it up for you.

Don T.