Sammy Bar.. Irish version.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 06:54 PM

That clip from Sean Guinan's movie introduced me to the song, and it remains iconically touching to me; so much so that I contacted the director. He said he would send me a DVD of the film (apparently it's not available anywhere) but never did.

The only thing that bothers me about the singing is that they keep going "the last boats ARE leaving."

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 06:16 PM

cyril would have liked it

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 11:14 AM

Sammys Bar... Flipping the Whale.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:07 AM

i have encountered one or two bigots of that calibre, I understand it in view of what has happened historically [quite often they are the worse for dink], but i have also encountered more people who are aware of the english tradition.
twangman, it is a question of taking a balanced view, of being truthful, and not making wild statements.
overall it has been my experience that   more irish singers musicians, do realise there is an english tradition than otherwise, but my experience also includes the occasional bigot who has a prejudiced view, however that is only MY experience,

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:15 AM

Good Soldier, I was paraphrasing.

Can you honestly say you have encountered bigots who have continued to deny the existence of the English song tradition in the face of evidence? I think it is more likely that some people are just surprised because they had no knowledge beforehand. It is a bit of a stretch to call that prejudice in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 12:15 PM

twangman, who said "alleged widespread ignorance is a result of deliberate misrepresentation"

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 05:26 AM

Denying prejudice exists would be ridiculous. I am not guilty of that. I am disputing that alleged widespread ignorance is a result of deliberate misrepresentation. There is no evidence of that, or at least none has been offered in this discussion. It would appear to be just an assumption.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 05:34 PM

" But the specific accusation of widespread deliberate misrepresentation of English songs made in this discussion remain unproven."
Jack Campin said that didnt he? he is better qualified to reply than me.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 05:03 PM

Good Soldier, I am not disputing a certain level of ignorance of the English tradition. I am disputing accusations of deliberate misrepresentation by people who aren't ignorant. People trying to pass off English songs as Irish songs, in full knowledge that they are English, because they are anti-English bigots, is just not realistic.

I am prepared to believe that you have encountered people who have expressed surprise upon hearing of the existence of an English tradition, but how does that equate to bigotry? Are you saying they continue to deny it in front of living proof? I find that hard to believe.

Of course prejudice exists in general. But the specific accusation of widespread deliberate misrepresentation of English songs made in this discussion remain unproven.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 04:05 PM

well, Twngman you are being ridiculous, of course prejudice exists, it exists when irish people cannot believe that english people have a musical tradition, yes it has happened i have heard it with my own ears, how widespread it is is I would nt be able to say, because i have also heard Irish singers sing english songs, and i know a few that are well awre of the strong singing tradtion in england. but prejudice and ignorance exists every where.
Irish people in my experience are more aware of their own and other peoples musical heritage, than most english people, a lot of english people are quite unawre and uninterested in traditional music,
musical bigotry and ignorance does exist everywhere including ireland

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 10:17 AM

Recently heard it sung 'Roll away the dice-o!'

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 07:45 AM

I don't come from a long line of traditional singers but, like lots of others, I received songs such as Sammy's Bar and Dirty Old Town by osmosis in childhood. Songs that were recorded and made popular by Irish artists during the 'ballad boom' in Ireland are the ones that were engraved in my psyche during my formative years. Those are the songs that were sung by my aunts and uncles at house parties when I was a child. That is my tradition. Some of those songs happen to be English but they are my songs too. I didn't steal them and nobody told me lies. They cannot be removed from my consciousness and I am not less entitled to them because I am not English.

Lots of non-Irish folk songs have been integrated into Irish popular culture purely by accident. When Liam Clancy passed away there was a tribute paid to him during a televised music awards show (similar to the Brit awards). Video clips of talking heads paying tribute were interspersed with snippets of Liam performing. When a brief clip of Liam singing the Wild Rover appeared, the largely teenage audience burst into song and continued to sing over the talking heads after the clip ended. It was a beautiful moment that would bring a tear to a glass eye. You would never see that at the Brits.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:42 AM

Jack Campin
    the first quote you quoted from my post is misplaced. My comments did say respect for songwriters is essential- it referred to the two tunes in question and nothing else.
    The second quote you use is equally pointless. Your response only stresses your preference for the written word. I said that I doubt very much whether the tune 'composers' were 100pc original, but quite probably crystallised into written form material which already existed in some form. There ARE no written antecedents, it was in the tradition already. You seem to believe because it's written down, it is the definitive version, and I DON'T, that's all.
Also the fact the there actually was a Mrs McLeod of Raasay is again irrelevant. We can't ask her, nor can we ask Bonaparte whether he wrote his 'Retreat'on his way home.
The name means NOWT- Iain McLachlan played a lovely Scots tune (whose name escapes me- maybe your books will tell you?)- it's no less lovely because it's now called the 'Dark Island'.
On the current drift of the discussion, I sometimes attend a singing circle near Sligo, where English songs are often sung- singers there seem to feel no need to specify where songs come from, it tends to be CD/concert publicists are more guilty of the chauvinism under discussion,.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:14 AM

Widespread deliberate misrepresentation of English folk songs as Irish folk songs by Irish singers is a myth. If accidental misrepresentation only occurs when a concert is billed as "Irish songs" well then that hardly ever happens. If it does happen, it is a bit of a stretch to call it a deliberate lie and completely ridiculous to call it bigotry.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:23 AM

Fair enough David, but I noted Good Soldier's example was hypothetical and ran with it. Let's say there was no mention of "Irish songs" in the publicity, would everything be hunky dory? Because that would be a more realistic scenario.

Dirty Old Town is a popular song in Ireland. I've heard it played at Discos. If the DJ started boring the disco dancers with details of its origins he would be booed off the stage.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 03:31 AM

If it was billed and an evening of English song, I would expect them to say when one wasn't.

Interesting, there was a news clip a couple of nights ago showing a bunch of Trump supporters protesting in support of his Muslim ban, singing "This Land is Our Land". Woody would have been horrified. Values are far more important than nationality.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 02:43 AM

What if this hypothetical concert takes place in England and the singer fails to mention that a song was written by Woody Guthrie? Does a whole nation then become implicated in a conspiracy of lies and anti-American bigotry? That would seem a bit far fetched to me. Similarly, accusations of lies and anti-English bigotry in the Irish/English situation are unfair. Thanks for the example.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 02:43 AM

What if this hypothetical concert takes place in England and the singer fails to mention that a song was written by Woody Guthrie? Does a whole nation then become implicated in a conspiracy of lies and anti-American bigotry? That would seem a bit far fetched to me. Similarly, accusations of lies and anti-English bigotry in the Irish/English situation are unfair. Thanks for the example.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 06:55 PM

No, Jack has a point, let us take a hypothetical example, christy moore say sings dirty old town, and does not mention that it was written about salford. or by MacColl.
and the promoter of the event has put in his publicity "an evening concert of irish songs with christy moore", the audience is then understandably misinformed and goes away thinking dirty old town is an irish song .
please note i am using this as a hypothetical example.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:55 PM

Some English songs became popular in Ireland and there was some ignorance initially among the casual listener as to their origin. That is all that happened. There was no lying or bigotry on the musician's part.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:43 PM

But who told the lie? It certainly wasn't the Pogues or the Dubliners or Christy Moore. Are we supposed to believe there was a lie because you say so? I think you are the one perpetuating a myth here.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 08:57 AM

I have never heard a singer falsely represent an English folk song as an Irish folk song in an introduction

You don't need to do that explicitly to spread the lie. People will assume that a song is Irish if they know it only from the Dubliners and the Pogues, or from compilations (like the one we started with) that are simply described as "Irish music" without qualification.

And if you're getting bored with having the lie pointed out to you, tough. Are we supposed to believe Obama was born in Kenya because millions of people said that for years? The more widespread and persistent misinformation gets, the greater your obligation to do something about it.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 07:58 AM

ok

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 04:38 AM

I never said otherwise Good Soldier. But anti-English bigotry is not likely to come from Irish singers who love English folk songs. It did not come from Luke Kelly, Al O'Donnell or Johnny McEvoy and I doubt that it came from the band Tara. Even the Wolfe Tones acknowledged Ian Campbell.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 03:14 AM

Anti english bigotry does exist but so does anti irish bigotry and anti german bigotry, and anti european bigotry.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 02:43 PM

Jack Campin, googling "dirty old town irish song" yields practically the same result as googling "dirty old town english song". All the hits on the first page identify the song's origin.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 10:00 AM

Good Soldier, if the accusation was, some singers simply getting it wrong on occasion, I would agree. It is the accusation of deliberate misrepresentation and anti-English bigotry that I disagree with.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 08:30 AM

Twangman, I have no idea, but you quoting one group possibly gettin it right does not alter others getting it wrong.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:15 AM

I have never heard a singer falsely represent an English folk song as an Irish folk song in an introduction. I have, however, heard the often repeated urban legend of 'Dirty Old Town' and 'The Wild Rover' (popular version) being introduced as Irish songs. I think the average audience is quite bored at this stage of being constantly reminded that certain popular songs are not Irish.

I wonder how the band 'Tara' introduced 'Sammy's Bar'? Given that Cyril was credited on the recording, I can't imagine them misrepresenting its origin when introducing it.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 06:17 PM

("Dirty Old Town" is much less specifically about Salford - it could be about any decaying industrial city, Detroit or Miskolc would do fine). it would have been good maaners for people to contact peggy seeger before altering it to timbuctoo, or bejing

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 03:46 PM

this is traditional music, I think, and to talk of the 'original' version and then disapproving of modifications to that 'original' just miss the point, this is a music of constant change not frozen in time

"Sammy's Bar" is about a particular place and time. The story is one that could have happened anywhere, but the point of the song is to make a connection to Malta as it was experienced by the sailors of the British Navy after WW2. ("Dirty Old Town" is much less specifically about Salford - it could be about any decaying industrial city, Detroit or Miskolc would do fine).


I don't doubt that Miss MacLeod existed but the tunes were not delivered to yer man Kerr in Scotland nor to the other one in the mid-1770s in a flash of light by the Angel Gabriel. It was almost certainly already in existence in some form.

She was Mrs Macleod - I said what the antecedents of the tune were; if the reel-time version existed before the mid-1770s it would have been written down. Scottish musicians were good at that. And Kerr names the composer of the Bluebell Polka - F. Stanley, whoever that was (Kerr only gave composer credits to a fraction of the tunes he published, so he must have been certain about that one). If you think it wasn't totally original, let's see your precedent.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Jim Bainbridge
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 01:27 PM

Yes, a considered post, Roy McLean- I do agree that a SHORT intro to a song can be appreciated by listeners, but not when talking down to people who may know more than you. To say 'Here's Dirty Old Town' by Luke Kelly' might be an example of this. But to return to the subject, Cyril never did this, despite his vast knowledge. And Martin Ryan, yes agreed about keeping it short- the kind of intro saying the 'song's about him & she did that & then she did this & after that they went to.......' and yes it happens!

But I don't like section 5 of your otherwise reasoned post- this is traditional music, I think, and to talk of the 'original' version and then disapproving of modifications to that 'original' just miss the point, this is a music of constant change not frozen in time. Yes, respect is due to all the repertoire, and especially to songwriters who have a right to have their work delivered as intended, unless agreed otherwise with the writer.

A similar attitude comes from Jack Campin. The two tunes you mention -'McLeod's Reel' and 'Bluebell Polka' have a history and I don't doubt that Miss MacLeod existed but the tunes were not delivered to yer man Kerr in Scotland nor to the other one in the mid-1770s in a flash of light by the Angel Gabriel. It was almost certainly already in existence in some form.
And perish the thought- there is no proof this material was even Scottish, musicians travelled even then, Using material from the folk tradition was OK for Dvorak and Vaughan Williams so why not others?


These tunes were probably collated/ plagiarized (you choose which- I don't know) from existing material and why not?
And to say there is a formula for the polka negates the very nature of traditional music. Historically there may have been written down 'classic' polkas with many examples of the formula mentioned as the 'correct' one.
But the music has moved on & to deny it is to put the music in a straitjacket which will kill it. there are many styles of polka in 2017, but to set up rules about it would deny that such as Walter Bulwer and Scan Tester had any right to their own way of playing them.

And all you English players, even the tunes you play from the Bulwer/Tester/Woods/Cann repertoire are not sacrosanct- theirs is NOT the definitive version, to be played note-for note -anything can be re-arranged -give the music respect but GO ON GO ON do it your own way!!

ps Jack, its not surprising about your six million hits on google- that's what people think- welcome to the real world!

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:17 AM

Agreed re GUESTRoys comments. My only addition would be to stress the need to optimise the duration of intros - long enough to settle putative listeners, short enougj to prevent them getting restless...

Regards

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 03:01 AM

Well-considered posts like the one by Guest Roy McLean make me wish more of our members were like him.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,GUEST Roy McLean
Date: 28 Jan 17 - 10:33 PM

At most of the folk music sessions I attend the singer gives some sort of introduction concerning the origin and story line(if any) of the song. I find this practice has various advantages: [1] It makes the song more interesting and understandable; [2] It facilitates the classification of the song. This in turn aids further study/research of the song and leads to the publication of interesting volumes such as "Songs of Shetland" rather than just "Folk songs of Unknown Origin; Volume 1,500,000"; [3] It goes some way towards preserving the origins of the song and this helps maintain the regional characteristic which is so central to most folk music and which comprises much of its charm; [4] It helps ensure that writers and regions receive fair credit for their labours/creativity. This may take the form of royalties or cultural kudos. I know people who travel all the way to S. America and Africa solely to experience local folk music first hand. This produces a trickle down effect which aids local musicians/musical cultures and indeed relatively poor foreign countries generally; [5] For some reason which I dont understand, songs usually sound better when rendered in the original form. Perhaps its because if its "your own baby" you take more care of it and a special pride in its production. Modifications to the original often seems to contain unattractive baggage of a political or monetary nature.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 02:44 AM

But the was no overt lying in the first instance. As I said, the assumption that certain songs are Irish because they are very well known in Ireland is a phenomenon but deliberate misinformation regarding the origin of English songs is not a real phenomenon.

I really don't understand how you think it is even possible. How would anybody get away with it?

Okay, some people will never realise the origins of certain songs. So what? It does not make them bigots and it does not make you or I better than them. Surely there are some pop songs that you yourself will never realise the origin of. The fact that certain English folk songs are popular in Ireland is a good thing in my opinion. Unfortunately the general non-folk affecianado audience don't really care about the origins of popular songs. That is not uniquely Irish and it is not anti-English.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 07:24 PM

the notion that Irish people can't bear to admit a song is English, once they realise it is, is nonsense.

Most of them don't ever realize. It only takes a few people to spread a lot of misinformation. Once the misinformation has built up to a bad enough level, omission rather than overt lying is all it takes to keep the ball rolling.

I bought a little Yiddish dictionary last week. It has a good proverb which translates as "a half truth is a whole lie".

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 07:11 PM

Not knowing a song is English is not the same as denying its English. Very occasionly I might encounter someone who is surprised to discover that certain songs are in fact English. But they weren't denying it up until then, they just didn't know beforehand.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 06:51 PM

Even Áine Ní Chonaill can't deny an English song is English.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 06:45 PM

I'm not sure what you're asking me but why were you surprised?

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 06:33 PM

Guest, I did not say that exactly, the performer who sang Caledonia was not a child.
Anti english bigotry as regards songs, it does exist but in my opinion and experience its only occasional.
curiously enough i came across a woman who was accused of being a bigot and whose face was on the front page of the Sun.Áine Ní Chonaill
Áine Ní Chonaill, who was, and possibly still is a spokesperson and founder of the Irish anti-immigration group Immigration Control Platform,
I was present when she sang the   song, Bonny Bunch of Roses, She was present at a gig i did and I had a conversation with her which surprised me, the conversation showed she was very knowledgeable about English trad songs, so what do you make of that?

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 06:25 PM

The last four 'GUEST' posts were mine. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 06:21 PM

Assuming a song to be Irish because it is very popular in Ireland is a bit of a phenomenon alright, but the notion that Irish people can't bear to admit a song is English, once they realise it is, is nonsense.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 05:59 PM

I know what you're saying Good Soldier but children not reading sleeve notes does not confirm Jack's accusations of anti-English bigotry.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 05:06 PM

As a matter of fact, I once heard Fiddlers green sung at a GAA SCOR Competition, The competitor was not dsqualified even though all the songs were supposed to be irish, in this case it was probably just ignoramce of its origins.
on another occasion i was judging a singing competition and the performer sang caledonia a song written by dougie maclean and as i understand it a scottish song, again the performer was ignorant of the songs origins, again this was supposed to be songs that were irish ,it was supposed to be a competition promoting irish culture. so i have first hand experience that confirms what jack is saying, that songs are often assumed to be irish,even in competitions that are supposed to be exclusively about irish musical culture.
I have also occasionally encountered astonishment on the part of irish people that the english have any trad songs or tunes, I have also met irish people who are very well acquainted with many english trad songs.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 04:44 PM

In fact Jack, you might be glad to hear that Irish people pointing out that Dirty Old Town is an English song has actually become a bit of a cliché at this stage. And the fact that Dirty Old Town is so well known in Ireland probably means a higher percentage of the Irish population know who Ewan MacColl is (and where he comes from).

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 04:30 PM

None of that proves your accusations. Can you name a single person who refused to acknowledge Ewan MacColl's nationality?

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 01:25 PM

Nobody has ever refused to acknowledge the nationality of Cyril Tawney, Ewan MacColl, Lennon and McCartney or anyone else.

Googling "dirty old town irish song" gives you nearly six million hits.

Most of the links to "Fiddlers Green" you get from Google imply that it's Irish. There is even a German-Irish band named after it.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 11:54 AM

A number of scottish tunes were indeed taken and altered to reels the irish tune The Musical Priest is an example of a tune that was orignlly scottish and a strathspey, I do not feel strongly about that kind of alteration because it does not mean meaning of a song is altered.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 11:47 AM

Jack Campin, the practice of Irish people 'refusing' to acknowledge the nationality of English composers is non-existent. Nobody has ever refused to acknowledge the nationality of Cyril Tawney, Ewan MacColl, Lennon and McCartney or anyone else.

Omission is not the same thing as refusal. Irish people are not the only nationality who omit the composer's nationality when crediting their name. English people do it too. It is normal practice. Why are you singling out the Irish?