BS: Toulouse killings

Subject: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:50 AM

A suspect is shooting it out with police.
The attack on the school was an horrific event even for these times.
He seized the pretty seven year old by her hair and put a gun to her head.
It jammed and she had to wait while he drew out a second weapon.
The depth of hatred that would drive someone to kill innocent children without compassion is blood chilling and terrifying.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:30 AM

Tragic, always sad when children become involved.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP2SHHfcyXw

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:11 AM

The gunman involved in a standoff with police in the French town of Toulouse has been named as Mohammed Merah.

Merah, who is believed to be responsible for killing four people at a Jewish school this week, is holed up in a house in the Croix-Daurade district of the city.


Merah had spoken to police through the door and had declared he was a "mujahideen" with links to al Qaeda who wanted to avenge the deaths of Palestinian children in Israel.

The 24-year-old Frenchman of Algerian origin earlier threw a pistol from the window of the house in exchange for a "communication device".

Enough said.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:09 AM

Just waiting now for someone to blame Israel. Come on guys. Who's going to be first? You know you want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:22 AM

Come on Chris, sure they don't kill people for nothing !

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:48 AM

There is NO good reason(or bad,for killing ANYBODY!

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:50 AM

We're having a minute's silence on Saturday Night as it's Toulouse who're visiting the North Wales Crusaders at Wrexham in the Challenge Cup.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:05 AM

This happened two days ago. The weapon which was used to kill the Rabbi and the children was also used to kill four paratroopers and others in France.

Where you guys been?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:10 AM

The detail of how the little girl died was released just before the siege began today.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:19 AM

This was a sick scenario from the beginning. But then, all such are. Too bad the French no longer guillotine.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:19 AM

The man, named as Mohammed Merah, 23, a Frenchman of Algerian origin, has said he belongs to al-Qaeda. He had been tracked by French intelligence for "several years".He should moved to the UK, he would have been safer here.

Police are negotiating with the man, who is still said to be armed but says he may give himself up this afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:32 AM

I think that there are all sorts of sociopaths who are claiming to be "Al-Qaidh" now. It's a convenient label which says, "I did thing in the name of Islam."

But I'll wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:38 AM

He trained in Pakistan and fought in Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:00 PM

So why is he killing Arabs *and* Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: pdq
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:44 PM

The secular security forces in both Iraq and Afghanistan are target #1 for Islamists. They want the people to be afraid to join them. They will kill anyone who stands in the way of an Islamic "republic" which is waht we have in Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:05 AM

So why is he killing Arabs *and* Jews?

The Arabs he killed had served in an infidel crusader army.
The Jews were killed because they were Jews.
He said he wanted to upload his video of their deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:27 AM

On Sky News, he referred to these servicemen in Iraq

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/12/iraqi-citizen-murders-servicemen-suspects

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:32 AM

"What "we" have in Iran"?

Surely what "they" have in Iran. A dreadful system - but the Iranians chose it.

It seems inherently improbable that this god-bothering nutter would have been safer in the UK, remember de Menezes?

The French police don't seem to have been doing a very good job, do they? Why was the suspect not arrested and charged years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:42 AM

There is nothing on Sky site about that Guest.
I think you made it up.
Are anon. Guests allowed below the line again now.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:44 AM

They differ from the British police Richard. Menezes was a good example of British police/army policy, many similar examples can be found of this in the North of Ireland. French police are taking the time to talk to this chappie.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:49 AM

Oh yes.
French police are soooo restrained compared to ours!

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:53 AM

Sky News ran this story this morning how Merah made reference to British soldiers murdering people in Iraq.

I don't understand Keith, are you saying you haven't saw it on Sky News, or are you saying British soldiers did not murder these people.

Yes Keith, guests are, read link.
http://mudcat.org/member/EntryForm.cfm

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:55 AM

All the news agencies get the same information from French Security.
I do not believe you.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:59 AM

French gunman has allegedly been killed after a siege lasting 31 hours, say media reports.

Keith, I could not care less if you believe me or not. Please admit British soldiers were found guilty of murdering innocent people in Iraq and the North of Ireland. The facts are to be found in the links above.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:17 AM

I think if Sky had an exclusive scoop it would be on their site.
I think other agencies would also have picked it up by now.
You are a liar.
You lie.
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:03 AM

Keith, it is not a lie. Here is the link to the story. British soldiers were charged with murdering innocent people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/12/iraqi-citizen-murders-servicemen-suspects

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:09 AM

You lied about hearing it on Sky today.
You lied that Mohammed Merah mentioned it.
You lied.

Why did you?
Why are you SO desperate to implicate and smear Britain?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:32 AM

Here's a summary of what Al Jazeera has to say about the death of the suspect:

A man suspected of killing seven people has died after a raid by French armed police on an apartment in the city of Toulouse.

Heavy gunfire lasting several minutes could be heard on Thursday as police entered the apartment of the suspect, named as Mohammed Merah, after a 32-hour standoff, Al Jazeera's Jacky Rowland reported.

Claude Gueant, France's interior minister, said the suspect had emerged from the bathroom of the apartment and started firing at police as they used a video camera to check each room of the upper-floor apartment. He then jumped out of a window.

"The forces used video to inspect rooms inside the apartment, and there was no sign of the man, who stayed in his bathroom. When they started to inspect it he came out of the bathroom shooting with ferocity that those at the scene had not seen before," Gueant said.


Heavy gunfire was heard as police officers entered into the flat of suspect Mohammed Merah [EPA]

"In the end, Mohammed Merah jumped from the window with his gun in his hand, continuing to fire. He was found dead on the ground," he added.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:33 AM

BBC News on National Public Radio has stated that he died of a gunshot wound to the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: gnu
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 01:48 PM

Either way, it was too good for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 02:03 PM

Hi Keith I would say that judging by his english comprehension skills our Guest is probably Christmas, but there again probably not his grammar is lamentable.

"are you saying you haven't saw it on Sky News"

"haven't SAW it" - FFS

Suspected off doing something does not mean that you DID IT.

"British soldiers were charged with murdering innocent people."

And the verdicts were? I mean if they WERE charged they must have been tried, and if they were tried then there must have been a verdict. Please get back to us when you have details of those verdicts.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:38 PM

"our Guest is probably Christmas"
Do not use an apalling incident in which children have been slaughtered by a religious nutter to take a pop at me - you pair of sick bastards.
I am not part of this thread and if you start stalking me I'll report both of you.
Back into your cess pit you sick shits.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:46 PM

Yes, there has been an update at Al Jazeera from what I posted this morning above:

""In the end, Mohammed Merah jumped from the window with his gun in his hand, continuing to fire. He was found dead on the ground," he added.

Francois Molins, a French prosecutor, said Merah was killed after being shot in the head by sniper.

Molins said: "Weapons and ammunitions were recovered from scene of the siege and also materials for making Molotov cocktails."

"Everything was done to keep him alive, but he resisted and fired at police as he tried to escape through the window," he said."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:21 PM

If the French security services had him under surveillance how the hell did he have the armoury they describe?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:57 PM

Sadly, I guess parents of Jewish schools in Britain will be looking for tighter security for their kids. Can't blame them. Rather than having a pop at each other, 'chatters might be better employed keeping half an eye out if any of us live near synagogues or Jewish faith schools. Hopefully this was a one-off but it feels to me like the beginning of a potentially dangerous period.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 03:02 AM

"Religious nutter" Jim?
His actions are abhorrent to the majority of Muslims.
To blame it on his religion is Islamophobic of you.

He was not a nutter.
Breivik was a nutter, acting out his mad fanasies on his own.(you had plenty to say about him.)

Merah was an Islamist.
As such his behaviour was sane and rational.
He was receiving guidance from other Islamists.

They know killing little children hurts us most.
As you know Hamas like to time their rockets to catch the school run.
Before the wall, suicide bombers in Israel would seek out buses with children on board.
Every school in Israel has barriers to stop vehicles crashing in.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 03:09 AM

In London on 21/7 one of the bombers positioned himself next to a mother and child before attempting to detonate.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 05:13 AM

From Sky News today. (Are you listening Guest?)
He claimed he carried out the shootings to avenge the deaths of Palestinian children and to protest against the French army's involvement in Afghanistan, as well as a government ban last year on face-covering Islamic veils, officials added.
http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16193987

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:10 PM

"Merah was an Islamist. As such his behaviour was sane and rational."
Are you sayiong that all Islamists go around slaughtering children or that the Isslamic doctrine tells them to do so - don't want to get into a debate about it, just like to know?
BTW - the Norwegian authorities have decided that if there's a second opinon which contradicts the orginal findings of Breivik's state of mind, he will be charged as a criminal
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2020980/Norway-set-declare-Anders-Behring-Breivik-legally-sane-stand-trial.html
Can't guarantee the accuracy of the report - the press does tend to tell lies!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:20 PM

Are you sayiong that all Islamists go around slaughtering children or that the Isslamic doctrine tells them to do so
.,,.

Jim ~ Muslims in general: no of course not.

But Islamists, yes ~~ your question is in a sense tautologicel, because Isalamist/Islamism is the designation used for [members of] that militant wing whose mission is precisely to do such things; that is what "Islamism" means and what "Islamists" do.

It must not be confused with "Islam", tout simple.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:28 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: kendall
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:32 PM

There is a post on Facebook that Fox noise put out false info. Anyone have that link?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:39 PM

Thank you, Jim. It is not a simple matter, indeed; but I see little in that wiki article to contradict or discount, for practical purposes in the current situation, the distinction I made above as a useful working basis for discrimination between the militant & non-militant wings of current Muslim thought and policy.

I think it is one which would appeal to those Muslims who are vehemently opposed to the activities of groups like alQaeda, AbuNidal, & so on, who would no doubt embrace the designation "Islamist"; but whose protests tend to the ineffectuality of all such well-meaners in the face of militaristic determination.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:52 PM

There's a tendency to dangerously over-simplify and give the impression that "all....." etc - which is, to my mind, the source of all extremism.
Still trying to work out how/why Breivik is mad and can't be counted as a Christian killer yet.....
Funny old world!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:27 PM

Jim, I said that the actions of the Islamist were abhorrent to most Muslims.
I agree with MtheGM that "Islamist" is now taken to mean a militant extremist.
Still trying to work out how/why Breivik is mad
Because the specialists appointed by the court examined him and studied him and pronounced him to be.
Perhaps you know better?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:43 PM

"Perhaps you know better?"
No - but the Norwegian authorities do, which is why they intend to try him as a criminal.
The original verdict was challenged by numerous experts in the field
Anybody who kills for religious or political reason is mad
These killings are identical; the only difference being the body count -
If one is mad, both are.
"I agree with MtheGM"
I don't
For the sake of everybody else on this thread this one-to-one is now over
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 07:26 AM

I do not seek "one to one" debate.
Join or abstain as you will, like anyone else Jim.

The court has yet to decide if it will accept the finding of the team of psychiatrists.
A special hospital unit is being prepared in the expectation that it will.

Breivik acted out his deranged fantasies alone.
Merah acted as a member of an Islamic group with the same aims, and received training, support and guidance from them.
They can not all be mad.
Nor can all the 9/11 hijackers and their trainers and controllers.
Or the London 7/7 and 21/7 bombers.
Or the Milan and Bali bombers.
Or the Mumbai attackers.
Or the shoe bomber or liquid bombers.
The Nigeria church bombers.
All Islamists doing what normal Islamists do.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 07:51 AM

"There is a post on Facebook that Fox noise put out false info. Anyone have that link?"

I saw it Kendall. I'm very suspicious, I don't think that even Fox would be so gormlessly stupid as to spell Toulouse "Toolooz". Methinks I detect the smell of the shit of a Photoshop Rat.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 07:57 AM

'"I agree with MtheGM"
I don't'
,..,.,

~~Why not, Jim? All I postulated was the current usage of a word, both among those who are its referent and those who refer.

Words mean what they mean ~ not what holders of partisan preconceptions think they ought to mean.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 08:11 AM

Tarek Fatah: Muslim vs. Islamism

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 09:45 AM

You seem to be set on make this another one-to-one and destroy yet another thread - one more time
The Norwegian government has virtually decided to put Breivik on trial as a criminal - you appear to have problems with that.
I await with interest to read what you have to say about the American soldier who went on a rampage and massacred 17 men, women and children - having a 'bad-hair-day, no doubt!
Extremists who kill or persecute for their religion or their particular philosophy - any religion - are sickos - Muslim extremists who wish to destroy infidels, Zionists in pursuit of a two-thousand year old fairy story, or Christian churchmen who can't keep their hands off children, or bomb family planning clinics - every single one of them is a menace and it's more than a little ingenuous to single out one particular religion and say "It wos them wot started it guv" - or "look what they're doing".
Unchecked religion is toxic and needs to be controlled, and it little becomes people who have supported massacres of civilians (refugees for instance) and persecution of whole populations to select as targets other religions behaving similarly.
Despite claims to the contrary, I have never at any time given my support to any terrorist group or state - the same cannot be claimed for some of those here.
The problem as far as I'm concerned is not religion per se, but fanatics who use those religions to abuse and murder.
If Breivik is a nutter, so was Mohammed Merah and so is Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, and to claim otherwise is to apply double standards - not unknown on these threads.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:05 AM

Forgive me for saying so, Jim; but you tend to get confused when approaching a topic on which you have strong feelings - e.g. ~~

"Christian churchmen who can't keep their hands off children, or bomb family planning clinics"

In the first bit of this formulation, you appear to be using 'churchmen', accurately according to usage, to mean clergy, who are indeed predominantly the ones who bring shame on their denominations by abusing children in their charge or parishes ~~ mainly RC but occasional Anglican clergy also. But it is NOT churchmen [i.e. clergy] surely, tho it may be those claiming to be acting on Xtn principles, who do any bombings of family planning clinics, tho your locution suggests that you think it is.

In general, I get a strong sense in this last post of a fair bit of ground-shifting on your part. And you have evaded my challenge as to your disagreement with my gloss on "Islamism/ist".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:44 AM

Please explain the meaning of The Norwegian government has virtually decided to put Breivik on trial and why you think I have a problem with it.

Please do not suggest I support the murder of refugees or anyone else.
Try not to use the personal attack strategy on this one.

SSgt Bales.
That is worth a thread on its own.
I doubt he was sane when he acted.

All those Islamist killers were operating as agents for global organisations.
They have sometimes used children and vulnerable people to carry out simple bomb planting tasks, but the ones I mentioned knew exactly what they were doing, as did their trainers, controllers and accomplices.
Bales and Breivik acted alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:59 AM

I would have suggested that "Islamist" was one who proposed the Islamic takeover of the world and the imposition of Islamic rule and law on all.

The religious nutter now dead in Toulouse went, I think, even further.

And I should perhaps draw another distinction, namely that he alleged he was acting on behalf of certain groups, but as far as I am aware they have not yet claimed him as one of their own.

I would also add that it seems that professed Muslims are disproportionately represented in recent times in atrocities - albeit in some cases in response to what could be seen as attacks on their culture or beliefs: but before them (to list just a few) it was the Irish, the Algerians, "freedom fighters" in Malaya, the Catholic establishment against heresy, and mainstream Crusaders - oh and Romans against Christians and Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 12:35 PM

Words mean what they mean ~ not what holders of partisan preconceptions think they ought to mean.

Michael, obviously you're not a Postmodernist, or you'd know that words are incredibly malleable and shift all over the place, and I am reminded of a great title of a book of American Indian short stories called "Writing in the Enemy's Language." Now I'll take of my English MA hat. . .

Everyone take a big breath. Now breathe out. Step away from the keyboard and have a life for the afternoon. Or spend more time above the line.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 12:45 PM

My point is that while people here continue to express their antipathy to one or other group/community/religion/race by using horrific events like the Toulouse killings, (a practice which has now become standard practice by some people on this forum), these arguments become weapons of hate and mistrust.
In this particular instance, a Christian killer who slaughters eighty odd young people does so because he is mad, a Christian solder who massacres 17 men women and children does so because he is mad, a Muslim who murders Jews, does so because - he is a Muslim - bollocks!!
Keith is displaying his hatred of Muslims - again, you are displaying
your double standards - again - we really have been here before.
Incidently - the culprits in the child abuse scandal were not just tha clergymen who carried out the abuse, but the heirarchy who facilitated that abuse by covering it up and allowing it to continue for as long as it did - it was a crime perpetrated by the church, not just the abusers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 12:45 PM

Indeed I am not a PostModernist. To be such would be to fly in the face of my Boring Old Fart's Credo, I have quoted it on this forum before; but, just in case anyone hasn't stumbled on it before, here is Michael's non-PostModern BOF's Credo:

··· Boring·Old·Fart credo: to which, at nearly 80, feel self entitled:   viz that my Literature shall be Comprehensible;   my Art Representational;   my Music Tonal: naught else shall penetrate my perception-zone. — ···

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 12:55 PM

Not

"because - he is a Muslim -",

Jim. Because he is an Islamist [a form of what you will, in your scattergun fashion, call 'madness']. You are not so thick as not to see the distinction, for all your pretending that no such distinction exists because it won't suit your preconceptions. Your extension of the 'abuse' responsibility to the 'hierarchy' is no kind of reply to my having pointed out your misuse of the term 'churchman'.

What 'double standards'. Indicate where you purport to have detected any basis for such an accusation in any recent post of mine ~~ or any post at any time, for that matter...

Your desperately confused arguments are doing your intellectual repute no credit.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 12:56 PM

a Muslim who murders Jews, does so because - he is a Muslim
No Jim.
Because he was an Islamist.
Would you prefer Jihadist?
That is OK by me.
I did state clearly, because I foresaw you would try to accuse me of something, that "most Muslims find his behaviour abhorrent."

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 01:03 PM

Richard, from Newsday.
The brother Abdelkader had already been linked to Iraqi Islamist networks.

The SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors Internet messages, reported Thursday that a lesser-known jihadist group was claiming responsibility for the attacks in France. SITE said Jund al-Khilafah issued a statement saying "Yusuf of France" led an attack Monday, the day of Jewish school shootings. There was no independent confirmation of the claim.

Authorities said Merah espoused a radical form of Islam and had been to Afghanistan and the Pakistani militant stronghold of Waziristan, where he claimed to have received training from al-Qaida.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 01:36 PM

Is S-Sgt Bales a professed practicing Christian or is that just a conventional "default" position.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: KHNic
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 02:07 PM

All I know is that my children attend school in France, although not in Toulouse. I am more than a little concerned about any escalation or reprisal attacks. This matters to me somewhat more than the above points scoring, as I am sure it does to many parents across France.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 02:09 PM

I suspect Bales is over-the-top PTSD and whatever else he is has little to do with what happened.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 02:37 PM

Whatever he was he was an arsehole and now he's a dead arsehole!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 04:20 PM

"Because he was an Islamist. Would you prefer Jihadist?""
Neither thanks, I'd prefer to point out that we don't know who the **** he was, what he belonged to yet and what inspired him to do what he did - as Richard has pointed out.
He may have claimed to be a Jihadist, just as Breivik is still claiming to be a Christian patriot hero who was acting to expose the traitors of his country.
As things stand, know we nothing about either - certainly not enough to make a judgement, yet on the basis of this 'nothing', the usual suspect has one absolved as being mad and another, acting in exactly the same way, identified as a political fanatic - wonder if it has anything to do with his being a Muslim (presuming he is one - I read somewhere that one of his relatives was quoted as saying "I didn't even know he prayed"??
It won't be surprising if it turns out he was a religious fanatic - plenty of them about, of all persuasions, but until we do, let's make our judgement with the information we have, not on agenda-driven guesswork.
As far as Breivik is concerned, even the Norwegian authorities have yet to make up their minds what course to make of him - and I would suggest they have a tad more information than we do.
Mike:
You know as little of this guy as I do, so this is aimed at you as much as it is anybody else.
I wouldn't for one minute do anythong other than damn what he's done as a horrific crime, whatever his reason, or lack of it, but I do object to the idea that it could be used as a stick to beat all Muslims - you never know - such things have been known to happen - want the name of some threads???
Miss your point about 'churchman' - its the term adopted fairly widely over here when referring to the clerical abuse scandle, so if you're trying to score points on semantics - not impressed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 04:26 PM

Yes, Jim ~~ I agreed it was the right word to use about the abuse scandal; but you coupled it with bombing ~

"Christian churchmen who can't keep their hands off children, or bomb family planning clinics"

was what you wrote. I repeat ~ that is a very confused statement: read it again; you have distinctly accused churchmen [i.e. clergy], nit just of abuse, but also of bombings, haven't you?

I say again ~~ CONFUSED ~ if not worse.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 04:32 PM

The fact that he shouted "Allahu Akbar" when he killed his victims may be a clue to what motivated him.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 04:48 PM

For the record: here in America, at least, it's been many years since anyone bombed a family planning clinic.

In fact, of the tiny number of such bombings, most were carried out by one man, Eric Rudolph, who's now serving several consecutive life sentences (which means he will never be paroled).

A tiny number of people have been murdered over the years for providing abortions. Too many, obviously, but there's never been an epidemic.

So-called "severe violence" against clinics and providers, as measured by the Feminist Majority Foundation in 2005, was declining for a dozen years - and note that the Foundation defines "severe violence" to include "threats" (i.e., scary words), "blockades" (i.e., civil disobedience), and "stalkings."


http://www.feminist.org/research/cvsurveys/clinic_survey2005.pdf

Since 2005, of course, there's been an upswing in right-wing anger about many things, but it seems that most angry Americans still know how to control themselves.

The predominantly Catholic and Evangelical National Right to Life Committee, the leading anti-abortion lobby, has vigorously condemned all violence against abortion clinics and providers.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 05:11 PM

As far as Breivik is concerned, even the Norwegian authorities have yet to make up their minds what course to make of him

All the psychiatrists who have worked with him have made up their minds.
He is mad.

Like Bales he acted alone.

All those Jihadists/Islamists can not all be mad.
Merah's brother for instance.
If he admitted knowing what was planned he would rot in jail for life, but he says he is PROUD of what his brother did.
Mad, or Islamist/Jihadist?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: KHNic
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 06:52 PM

To those who would wish the guillotine:

In French

or In English

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: KHNic
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 06:53 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvoajDAOHkc&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 02:29 AM

Islamist - what has been reported about him here in the UK has been that he was in trouble most of his life as a juvenile delinquent and petty criminal who as a Muslim was "radicalised" in prison.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 05:28 AM

"He is mad."
Then so is the Norwegian government and all the other experts who contradicted and questioned the original findings.
Perhaps you might call them in and ask them to sort out your own litle problem - your somewhat strange obsession with the idea that you know better than those directly concerned with handling the case.
"but you coupled it with bombing "
Sorry Mike - it was my intention to present both as random examples of outrages inspired by religion, certainly not to suggest that the two were linked other than in that way.
My apologies.
"Mad, or Islamist/Jihadist?"
Anybody who advocates and/or carries out the random killing of innocent people, men, women and children, and describes it as heroism is as mad as a hatter as far as I'm concerned, whatever religion they choose to dress it in - plenty of examples of such behaviour in other religions.... "God on our side", and all that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 06:35 AM

"Because he was an Islamist".
For the record:
According to this morning's Sunday Times police are treating the killer as having no clear terrorist links and are "inclined to see him as a lone wolf - "a self starter"" whose behaviour indicates that he "does not seem to be Islamic"
Obviously as mad as Breivik, or not, as the case may be!
"Bales and Breivik acted alone".
So, it would appear, did Mohammed Merah.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 07:53 AM

your somewhat strange obsession with the idea that you know better than those directly concerned with handling the case.

I only know what I read.
I read that all his psychiatrists, appointed by the court, say he is mad.
The court has yet to decide whether to accept it.
They may indeed refuse to accept that plea.
Or they might.
OK?

Anybody who advocates and/or carries out the random killing of innocent people, men, women and children, and describes it as heroism is as mad as a hatter as far as I'm concerned,
So that is Merah and his brother,
and all the Gazan missile launchers,
and all the 9/11 hijackers and their trainers and controllers.
and the London 7/7 and 21/7 bombers.
and the Milan and Bali bombers.
and the Mumbai attackers.
and the shoe bomber, the underpants bomber and all the liquid bombers.
and the Nigeria church bombers,
and the whole of al Qaeda.
All just mad as hatters.
There would seem to be a pandemic of it Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 08:28 AM

Have you never thought of setting up shop and putting these incompetent arseholes out of business
Sheesh......!
I suggest that when you seek their help for your "little problem" you ask them do they do 'meglomania'
Noticed you missed out the Sabra and Shatila massacres and the slaughter of Gazans in your list
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 09:28 AM

"The court has yet to decide whether to accept it."
BTW - the court have already accepted it, decided that this was probably a mistaken 'rush to judgement' and are gracious enough to reconsider their decision - not a lot of that in evidence here unfortunately.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 04:53 AM

I think it's quite credible that Merah did act alone. He may well style himself as an 'Al-Qaeda' fighter. Pretty much anyone can, if they want to. Plus he's Algerian, which means there's possibly a specific dynamic at work concerning his motivations with regard to the shared history of France and Algeria. All of which means that when you look at specifics the story becomes at once more complex and more interesting (if that's the right word).

I don't as yet find it credible that he acted out of mental illness. Personality disorder, perhaps, but that's another phenomenon. Clearly he possessed the capacity to formulate a plan and carry it out just as the IRA, UVF, PLO and all the other highly-motivated terror groups of the past 40-odd years have done (though that doesn't, as I say, preclude him acting alone).

I find the use of the term 'Islamist' interesting. What does that mean? Is it a synonym for Muslim? Is it a term for someone whose whose membership of a religious community motivates them to political action? Does that make Irish nationalists 'Catholicists?' Does that make Catholics suspect because the PIRA and RIRA are or were Catholics?

It's perfectly legitimate to believe in a united Irish republic. It's perfectly legitimate to believe society would benefit from the operation of Sharia law. It's not legitimate to act upon that belief as a terrorist. It's also not legitimate to assume that all those who support those aims are terrorists. That's the dilemma and the complication of living in a liberal, pluralist society. There are always alternatives if that's not the sort of society you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 04:58 AM

"Islamist". I used it, and believe it to be accepted to mean, a radicalised militant extremist Muslim fighting for a global Caliphate.
I suggested "Jihadist" as an alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:31 AM

Definition here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism
Even within its own definition it is complicated, but made even more so by racists who use it as a blanket term to describe terrorist and then apply it to all Muslims, or, at the very least, suggest that all Muslims are culturally prone to terrorism.
As you rightly point out Scouse, similar attitudes exist towards Ireland - Republican = terrorist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:39 AM

At least our forum is free of people who fail to make those distinctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:46 AM

"At least our forum is free of people who fail to make those distinctions."
And I'm sure you will continue to defnd Bluesman and his ilk to the last ditch
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:48 AM

Continue?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:11 AM

I have considered the wikipedia discussion (actually under the heading "Islamism" and not "Islamist") and it seems to me that it contains unnecessary distinctions which could be used to comfort aggressive extremists - but it fails to make two important distinctions.

First it fails (at least, fails clearly) to distinguish between those who advocate a political role for Islam within Islamic states and those with a majority of Moslems therein, on the one hand, and those who advocate violent invasion and overthrow (and compulsory conversion) of infidel states and infidels (sort of mirror image Crusaders, if you like that sort of irony) on the other. I have omitted those who favour persuasion rather than compulsion as they do not seem to be relevant to this discussion.

Second, it fails to distinguish between those who pursue such objectives individually, and those who pursue such objectives as part of organised groupings.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:25 AM

"as they do not seem to be relevant to this discussion"
Much in what you say Richard, but, as "thread drift" seems to have raised its ugly head recently, none of this has anything to do with the Toulouse killings anyway as the perpetrator seems not to be regarded as an Islamist of any persuasion by those involved.
There is a danger that if the discussion continues as if he was, the rope will be over the branch and the prisoner dragged out of the jailhouse (metaphorically speaking of course) yet again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:39 AM

Jim, Keith A. and I only share the same Christian name. I do agree with what he says here, simply because it is logical.

This was a very sad event, it should not be used to score cheap points against someone you disagree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:41 AM

"A brother of Islamist gunman Mohamed Merah"
BBC i day ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:56 AM

That, Bluesman, would appear to be a difference between you and the OP.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:01 AM

Richard, I agree with everything Keith posted on this thread, in fact I agree with you. Sadly it was Jim brought Ulster politics into it. That was coat trailing, nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:08 AM

"BBC i day ago. "
Sunday Times - 1 day ago:
"According to this morning's Sunday Times police are treating the killer as having no clear terrorist links and are "inclined to see him as a lone wolf - "a self starter"" whose behaviour indicates that he "does not seem to be Islamic" "
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:12 AM

"Islamist" still applies.
Did they use the term?
Times only available online with payment.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:16 AM

Times Online
Islamist gunman Mohamed Merah, who killed seven people in the French city of Toulouse including three children outside a Jewish school, has been killed in a shootout at his flat. In this audio dispatch, Europe Editor Charles Bremner discusses a case which has shocked France. Click on

March 22 2012 4:10 PM
   
An Islamist gunman who killed seven people in the French city of Toulouse died after being shot through the head by a police sniper during a shootout in his flat. Mohamed Merah leapt from a first-floor bathroom window, still shooting, after counter-terrorist commandos stormed the

March 22 2012 2:42 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:29 AM

"March 22 2012 2:42 PM "
Posting out-of-date news reports that have been superseded by contrary information suggests an agenda - as does posting those of the official attitude to Breivik's mental health.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:33 AM

The term "Islamist" is still being used as a description.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: bobad
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 09:05 AM

Apologists, you don't know what you're talking about -- do some homework.

French killer's brother charged
By Rory Mulholland, Agence France-Presse March 26, 2012

The brother of an Islamist gunman whose grisly murder spree shocked France was charged Sunday with complicity in the attacks, but his lawyer said he should not be made a scapegoat.

Abdelkader Merah denied any involvement in the shootings of three French soldiers, three Jewish schoolchildren and a trainee rabbi - attacks claimed by his younger brother Mohammed Merah, 23. Merah, who said he had links to al-Qaeda, died Thursday in an exchange of gunfire after a prolonged standoff with police at his Toulouse apartment.

His elder brother had reportedly said he was "proud" of Merah's actions - a claim his lawyer Anne Sophie Laguens sought to dispel after Abdelkader was charged on Sunday.

"He is not at all proud of the acts of his brother, like was said in the press," she said. "He strongly condemns them. He hopes he doesn't become a scapegoat."

Police and prosecutors have described Abdelkader Merah, 29, as a more radical Islamist than his brother and said he has long been known to police for his "fundamentalist religious convictions," a police source said. Police knew about the elder brother since 2007, when he allegedly helped jihadists get to Iraq. He is considered a hard line Islamist who pushed Mohamed Merah in an increasingly radical direction, a police source said. Merah and his girlfriend, Yamina Mesbah, were taken in for questioning Wednesday. Mesbah was released Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 10:46 AM

The Telegraph, 12 minutes ago.
Nicolas Sarkozy, in mid-campaign for re-election has said French security services would launch a hunt for Islamic extremists following the Toulouse killing spree by the Islamist gunman Mohamed Merah.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 11:04 AM

"The term "Islamist" is still being used as a description. "
Out of habit, I would guess
Suggest you look up the Sunday Times report and the extensive article, otherwise you will be relying on out-of date information, which might some people.....
"do some homework."
You'd do better to send this to the Toulouse police
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 11:22 AM

"The term "Islamist" is still being used as a description. "
Out of habit, I would guess

Or, you could be wrong about the usage of this word Jim.
I say you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 11:24 AM

"Apologists"
Nobody is being an apologist here - we're trying to keep up with an obviously rapidly developing situation rather than coming to half-arsed conclusions based on personal prejudices.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 11:28 AM

Agreed.

Making all allowance for SRS's invocations of postmodernism, structuralism, all-that-jazz-ism, I say again that life [& communication] v much easier if words are allowed to mean what they mean, not what some people think they ought to mean...

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 11:29 AM

Cross·post ~~ it was Keith I was agreeing with on this occasion...

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 12:55 PM

"much easier if words are allowed to mean what they mean, not what some people think they ought to mean..."
Definitions - take your pick
Jim Carroll


Islamism has been defined as:
"the belief that Islam should guide social and political as well as personal life",[10]
"the [Islamic] ideology that guides society as a whole and that [teaches] law must be in conformity with the Islamic sharia",[11]
an unsustainably flexible movement of ... everything to everyone: an alternative social provider to the poor masses; an angry platform for the disillusioned young; a loud trumpet-call announcing `a return to the pure religion` to those seeking an identity; a "progressive, moderate religious platform` for the affluent and liberal; ... and at the extremes, a violent vehicle for rejectionists and radicals.[12]
an Islamic "movement that seeks cultural differentiation from the West and reconnection with the pre-colonial symbolic universe",[13]
"the organised political trend, owing its modern origin to the founding of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt in 1928, that seeks to solve modern political problems by reference to Muslim texts",[14]
"the whole body of thought which seeks to invest society with Islam which may be integrationist, but may also be traditionalist, reform-minded or even revolutionary",[14]
"the active assertion and promotion of beliefs, prescriptions, laws or policies that are held to be Islamic in character,"[4]
a movement of "Muslims who draw upon the belief, symbols, and language of Islam to inspire, shape, and animate political activity;" which may contain moderate, tolerant, peaceful activists, and/or those who "preach intolerance and espouse violence."[15]
a term "used by outsiders to denote a strand of activity which they think justifies their misconception of Islam as something rigid and immobile, a mere tribal affiliation."[9][16]
Islamism takes different forms and spans a wide range of strategies and tactics, and thus is not a united movement.

Moderate reformists who accept and work within the democratic process include the Justice and Development Party of Turkey, Tunisian author and reformer Rashid Al-Ghannouchi and Malaysian opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim. The Islamist group Hezbollah in Lebanon participates in both elections and armed attacks, seeking to abolish the state of Israel.

Groups such as the Jamaat-e-Islami of Pakistan and the Sudanese Brotherhood favored a top-down road to power by military coup d'état.[17] The radical Islamists al-Qaeda and Egyptian Islamic Jihad reject entirely democracy and self-proclaimed Muslims they find overly moderate, and preach violent jihad, urging and conducting attacks on a religious basis. This is not of the normal religion, and is responded to with outrage by the public.

Another major division within Islamism is between the fundamentalist "guardians of the tradition" of the Salafism or Wahhabi movement, and the "vanguard of change" centered on the Muslim Brotherhood.[18] Olivier Roy argues that "Sunni pan-Islamism underwent a remarkable shift in the second half of the 20th century" when the Muslim Brotherhood movement and focus on Islamistation of pan-Arabism was eclipsed by the Salafi movement with its emphasis on "sharia rather than the building of Islamic institutions," and rejection of Shia Islam.[19]

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 03:02 AM

Jim, You are wrong.
BBC is very careful about sensitivities in things like this, and they have language experts to ensure they make correct usage.

Who are you to challenge their authority?
In this article of 24th they are using the word Islamist as synonymous with Jihadist.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17487320

Some have asked whether the intelligence community, in its rush to adapt to the new threat of Islamist militancy in Europe after such attacks as Madrid in 2004 and London in 2005, might not have neglected traditional police surveillance methods.

Two consecutive gun attacks on soldiers, with a similar weapon and modus operandi, in the same part of France, should have suggested an Islamist attacker.

After all, as French security expert Francois Heisbourg pointed out in an interview for Liberation, suspected Islamist militants had plotted to attack soldiers in France at least twice in recent years

Yet the Islamist theory was also there at an early stage, as police sources told French media, so why was Merah not hauled in right away?

"Here's a guy with the profile of a jihadist and they didn't take any more interest in him," said Mr Heisbourg.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 03:33 AM

The Guardian Jim.
France has been less obviously affected by the violence of the 9/11 wars and the broad phenomenon of contemporary Sunni Muslim Islamist militancy than many other European nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 03:42 AM

Oh come on!!!
Please don't crawl by your "experts" again.
THE definitions used are as wide and far reaching enough as to to cover anyone who links the Muslim religion with politics; moderates and fanatics alike - a 'scattergun' definition.
The BBC, like the rest of the media, is prone to take on-the-reports reports as they stand in a day-to-day situation
Please stop trying to score points on something that is constantly developing and changing daily.
Personally, I have no interest whatever in the definition, nor in the Muslim religion; I am concerned that people like you don't use these horrific events as a racist weapon, as you have in the past.
You have made your agenda clear with your efforts to make Breivik the Christian "mad" and Mohamed Merah the Muslim "sane" when they both behave in an identical manner.
Now, kindly address your arguments to all here and not me - don't make this another dialogue.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 03:58 AM

I am not scoring points.
You accused me of being anti Muslim because of my use of language.
I have shown that my use of language was correct and in line with current usage.
I have shown that your attack on me was groundless, unless you are levelling the same stupid smear at BBC, Guardian, Telegraph,....

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 04:14 AM

use these horrific events as a racist weapon, as you have in the past.
Nasty, blatant lie.
Why can we never have a friendly, honest discussion without you making false accusations against me on every thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 04:16 AM

Jim, you are making a public fool out of yourself. Keith has the support and backing of everyone on this thread, accept what he has said and let that be the end of it. Why does it always have to be Ulster or Muslims with you.

Ignore him Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 04:32 AM

There you are Keith - you've got the backing which suits your argument
Two of a kind - snap!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 04:36 AM

You could respond to my posts and not his.
You have made two groundless and dishonest personal attacks against me, instead of engaging in discussion.
It happens on every thread we contribute to.
You are making Mudcat a nasty place for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 04:55 AM

Jim, does your sense of justified indignation derive from principles that you are willing to defend in the open?

In your maneuvering to escape criticism, a theory that authorizes its proponents to use such arguments in self-defense is therefore false? Inadequately defended? Undebatable? Jim has violated norms of debate, might it be because debate is one game and he has chosen to play another?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 05:14 AM

I suggest that one should indeed make the distinctions that I said were missing from the wikipedia article. That would differentiate, I think, my position from any of those of Keith, "Bluesman" or MtheGM.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 05:21 AM

Agreed Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 05:25 AM

Richard, I accept your first distinction.
The second one was between individuals or members of organisations.
They are different of course, but how should Merah be regarded differently as a loner or as a member of an Islamist/Jihadist group.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 06:27 AM

Had your "norms of debate" Bluesman - outright and virtually admitted fascism - see Dale farm thread.
Have put my arguments here - do not intend to get into another head-to-head with Keith and take over another thread.
Keith and his mates distorted, lied, bullied, insulted and attempted to manipulate a subject out of uncomfortable areas throughout Homs thread - that is his idea of "friendly" discussion.
I will take part in any debate I wish with whom I wish and when I wish
Mind your own business
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 06:44 AM

Well, Keith, a lone man on a Jihad is going to be a bit lonely. I think that the very act of putting the question indicates that an Islamist (in any sense) is not necessarily a Jihadist. I wonder whether a Jihadist necessarily must be an Islamist?

It seems to me that people are making the assumption that the subject individual here was associated with some named or organised (after a fashion or more) group - and that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 06:49 AM

Not that lonely Richard.
There is an internet community.

Irish Times today.
Al Jazeera received a memory stick containing a montage of footage filmed by Merah with a camera attached to his body accompanied by Islamist war songs, and sent the package to police yesterday.

The package was dated Wednesday, March 21st, the day police surrounded Merah in his apartment in the southern city of Toulouse after a massive manhunt, according to a report in the Parisien newspaper.

He said the video showed all the murders of the soldiers and then the rabbi and the Jewish children, at the
entrance to their school shortly before the start of classes.

"You hear the voice of the person who carried out the killings. You also hear the victims' cries," he said.

French special forces shot the young Islamist the following day after a 30-hour siege. "Investigators are trying to find out whether the letter was posted Tuesday night by Mohamed Merah himself or by an accomplice Wednesday morning," the newspaper wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 08:04 AM

Jim, I think you follow Keith A. from thread to thread to score cheap points, that is wrong. Keith and Teribus, clocked you early in this thread, please keep to the debate and leave the hate out of your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 09:11 AM

Jim.
You have made your agenda clear with your efforts to make Breivik the Christian "mad" and Mohamed Merah the Muslim "sane" when they both behave in an identical manner.
I made no effort.
A stated factually the situation of Breivik.
I stated correctly that Merah's actions are not abnormal for a militant Islamist/Jihadist


BBC today. Accomplice posted the memory stick.
A USB memory stick containing the footage, sent along with a note claiming the attacks in the name al-Qaeda, was posted last Wednesday, when Merah was already under siege.

It was posted from "outside Toulouse", a police source told Agence France-Presse.

Earlier, al-Jazeera Paris bureau chief, Zied Tarrouche, confirmed he had watched the video and it showed all of the killings.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 10:21 AM

Jim, great news!
Your Sunday Times piece is now available free.
But, you made a misquote.
It said,

"On the surface Merah did not seem like an Islamic extremist."

NOT "whose behaviour indicates that he "does not seem to be Islamic""
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/terrorist-mohamed-merah-found-his-inner-jihadi-in-prison/story-fnb64oi6-1226309644280
Devious, dishonest and deceitful Jim.
Are you ashamed?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 12:18 PM

"Keith and his mates distorted, lied, bullied, insulted and attempted to manipulate a subject out of uncomfortable areas throughout Homs thread" - Jim Carroll

Not my recollection of it at all Christmas - ran more like - You attempted to tell a deliberate lie, knowing full well that it was a lie at worst, or at best a totally false and gross misrepresentation. What happened to you on the "Homs Terror" Thread was that you got called to account for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 02:32 PM

Yes, we know that the individual claimed to be supported by Al Quaeda. Often they claim their terrorist attacks. These attacks they have not I think claimed. He may heve been a Walter Mitty with one friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 03:14 PM

Richard, Walter Mitty never did anything.
A better analogy.
A paedophile who uses the internet to get aroused, and than attacks a kid.
But, he was not a member of a paedophile ring.
Should we regard him differently because of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 03:17 PM

NOT "whose behaviour indicates that he "does not seem to be Islamic"
The article said he drank, smoked and went with women - the full profile of him in the News Review section of the paper confirms this. I did not quote verbatim, I took a part of it as a quick example - I had no access to a link to pass on, as I always try to do when I quote articles
Do not accuse me of your tricks of doctoring texts - I neither do it nor feel the need to do it. I don't take part to score points and I don't post under a false name to give myself support. Also unlike you, I have no axe to grind, no terrorist states or organiations top support.
I look on these discussions as an exchange of information and opinions - not an ego trip.
"You attempted to tell a deliberate lie,"
The "deliberate lie" was that Britain supplied small arms ammunition to Syria - " the sale was documented, yet yopu continued to deny its existence (I settled on small missiles for killing at your insistence". You presented seven contradiciting explanations of the order - Keith finally settled on "I thought you were talking about Libya".
All three of you, including Weirdie Beardie, claimed I had supported Hamas and other terrorist groups and when you failed to find proof, you ignored all requests to withdraw what was an obvious lie.
Want me to repeat what you said about my mother ( dead over forty years now)
This type of lying shit is what makes debating with maggots like you less than worthless; at least you can disagree with other forum members and not come away feeling you need to take a shower.
"A stated factually the situation of Breivik."
No - you have continued to ignore the fact that has coonstantly been pointed out to you that the Norwegian government had changed their minds and had virtually decided to try him as a criminal.
That is as good as lying.
Never mind though - you obviously still have Bluesman on your side - and what more could a girl want!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 07:02 PM

you have continued to ignore the fact that has coonstantly been pointed out to you that the Norwegian government had changed their minds and had virtually decided to try him as a criminal.

No Jim.
As I stated, the court has yet to decide whether to accept an insanity plea.
I do not know what "virtually decided" is supposed to mean.
It is a fact that the court appointed psychiatrists have pronounced him insane.

Re your Sunday Times misquote.
You faked it to prop up your argument, safe in the belief that you could not be exposed.
You were.
For a the sake of a silly debating point you make a fool of yourself again.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 11:20 PM

It would depend, Keith, on the descriptor you attached. Assuming for the purposes of this post only that the person you describe was a "paedophile" that would not of itself justify calling him part of a "paedophile ring". That's why the accurate meanings of the words "Islamist" and/or "Jihadist" are important.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 01:11 AM

"The "deliberate lie" was that Britain supplied small arms ammunition to Syria - " the sale was documented,"

That is news Christmas, could you perhaps share with us where this sale is documented?

A newspaper article referring to the granting of an export licence is documentary proof of nothing. The issuing of a licence is not a guarantee that any sale or purchase ever occurred. All it means is that whoever applied for the licence (and that was not the British Government) could enter into negotiations and pursue the deal. Nobody is going to waste time and money talking to you about buying anything unless they are sure that you can deliver.

The process is licences, paperwork and permits first and that Christmas would be before the person we are talking about here (note person, private individual, not Government body) even bought the ammunition referred to in your newspaper article, otherwise the would be seller is left with something he cannot sell on. Arms dealers may be many things - being Stupid is not something you can accuse them of being.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:11 AM

Richard, why is it useful to make a distinction between predatory paedophiles because they are or are not in a ring?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:16 AM

"....the court has yet to decide whether to accept an insanity plea."
Which totally contradicts you own statement that he is insane.
The Norwegian authorities have said (as I have already pointed out) that if the original psychiatric findings are challenged by other experts, he will be PROSECUTED as being sane.
Those challenges were made after the original findings were announced - hence my "virtually".
It is agenda driven misinformation to ignore that this is the position as it stands. One is only left to wonder why you are putting so much effort into trying to claim he should be considered insane - maybe you are considering joining the new Europe wide organisation The English Defence League (the organisation he had links with) is trying to set up!!
As for my "fake" - I have no doubt whatever that you will make what you are able of this load of shit.
The article described the police as "inclined to see him as a lone wolf - "a self starter" whose behaviour indicates that he "does not seem to be Islamic", (both in the main article and the profile in the News Review) and that there was no evidence of his having any links with any Islamic group.
It had also been stated that his life style showed no indication of even being interested in Islamic politics; the article headline in The Times earlier in the week, based on quotes from people who knew him in was "Islamic - I didn't even know he prayed"
He was being treated as a lone gunman.
As for my "belief that you could not be exposed" (about as shitty and clumsy as your distotions get), I had no way of knowing that the Sunday Times article would not be available (I still don't know if that is the case - have never had to try it as we regularly take that paper). If I had been aware that it was necessary to subscribe, I had no way of knowing whether you were a subscriber or not - you seem to base your entire knowledge on cut-n-pastes. Nor had I any way of knowing which newspaper any of the contriburors to this thread took, so it would have been stupidity at your level to make false claims on an article in a leading newspaper.
You seem to judge the rest of us as having your own deplorable moral standards.
"where this sale is documented?"
Been there, done that - documented in a government list linked in the Guardian article (provided at least 3 times) on British arms shipments - get somebody to read it for you.
You already know this - you've acknowledged that fact by claiming (without proof, so it is obviously your own invention) that it the licence was recinded and the delivery never made - so stop arguing with yourself - you stupid boy.
"Well done gentlemen. "
Well merited praise from someone whose word counts in the "right" places.
That's me for the day - off for a shower to wash this filth off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:25 AM

h totally contradicts you own statement that he is insane
How would I know that he is insane?
I read that the psychiatrists pronounced him insane and reported that factually.

Faked quote.
"does not seem to be Islamic"

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 05:09 AM

The question, Keith, is the accuracy or otherwise of the description. I assume you would accept that it is useful to be accurate whether the unlawful user of weapons or explosives was part of an organised group or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 06:42 AM

Always amazes me how much time people seem to have on their hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 10:04 AM

"How would I know that he is insane?"
Then why put so much effort into claiming that he was?
You have been told repeatedly that the Norwegian authorities are in the process of reviewing that judgement and you still claim him to be insane
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 10:09 AM

I pointed out that it wasn't a quote, but since you insist - this is the bit you appear to have deliberately ignored.

You put it in quotes, as if it was a quote, but it was not.
When exposed you say it was not a quote.
So why put it in quotes.

What do you mean ignored?
I read it all.
I provided a link.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 11:46 AM

"I provided a link. "
So what?
You openly lied on the Muslim Prejudive and Homs threads - you are an inveterate liar and you are to stupid to cover your tracks
Even if you had done your usual trick of not reading what people put up, you haven't got the good grace to withdraw and apologise when you are caught out
"When exposed you say it was not a quote."
I explained exactly what it was "part of it as a quick example" and you chose to ignore it because you thought you had caught me doing exactly what you frequently do - pass on false information.
What do you mean - exposed - you got it wrong - it was exactly as I described
You and your three mates deserve each other - piss off - all of you
Jimn Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 11:56 AM

I do not lie.
I would rather lose an argument.

Here is you faking the quote,"does not seem to be Islamic"
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:08 AM

"BBC i day ago. "
Sunday Times - 1 day ago:
"According to this morning's Sunday Times police are treating the killer as having no clear terrorist links and are "inclined to see him as a lone wolf - "a self starter"" whose behaviour indicates that he "does not seem to be Islamic" "
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 01:33 AM

"Been there, done that - documented in a government list linked in the Guardian article (provided at least 3 times) on British arms shipments - get somebody to read it for you."

A newspaper article is not evidence, nor is it documentary proof that anything was bought, sold, delivered. The article is was also in error in stating that items mentioned were supplied or sold BY THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT.

It is your comprehension skills "Jimn" that require that you not only have to have newspaper articles read to you, you also have to have it explained to you what the words and the article mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 04:12 AM

"A newspaper article is not evidence"
That must be the reason you never present any evidence for your (invented) claims of weaponry used by the Syrian Army, cancelled licences for orders that were not delivered (that do not exist, according to you)?
"The article is was also"
"is was"? tsk tsk.
Go away Keith - you are getting more pathetically desperate
Now wher's that shower?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 04:17 AM

your (invented) claims of weaponry used by the Syrian Army
You were given exact instructions on how to confirm their weaponry for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 04:41 AM

Keith
You have just PMd me accusing me of doctoring a press report from The Sunday Times in order to give false information about the killer
What I posted corresponds exactly with the Toulouse police's estimation of him at the time - that he was an extemely disturbed young man rather than a jihadist/Islamist - I highlighted their statement in red in case you skipped over it
If this is not the case, please point out where I have claimed otherwise, otherwise, stop lying
This becomes real squalid stuff - why debate if you are incapable of doing so honestly?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 04:46 AM

You claimed this was a quote.
"whose behaviour indicates that he "does not seem to be Islamic""

The real text only said,
"On the surface Merah did not seem like an Islamic extremist."

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 05:52 AM

No - not good enough Keith - the article specifically describes him as a disturbed young man rather than a Islamic jihadist
You are aware of that - you claim to have read the article containing the Intelligence Chief's statement describing him as such - in case it has slipped your mind - here it is again.
I expect a withdrawal of your accusations - an apology would be nice, but I realise that's out of the question
Jim Carroll

"He's a Janus, someone with two faces," said Bernard Squarcini. the intelligence chief who suggested that Merah's crimes resulted from mental illness — "a medical problem" rather than a jihadist's vocation. "You have to look at his broken childhood and psychiatric problems," he added.
His parents divorced when : he was young and his father ; returned to Algeria. A school dropout, he got the occasional job in a garage but relied on his mother for money. At 16 he was arrested for throwing stones on board a bus. There followed convictions for scooter theft and driving without a licence......

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 09:34 AM

Toulouse Jewish school receiving hate mail since attack

    (JTA) -- The Jewish school in France where a gunman killed three children and a teacher has received a rash of anti-Semitic hate mail and phone calls since the attack.

The Ozar Hatorah school in Toulouse complained to the local prosecutor about the harassing mail and phone calls, the French news agency AFP reported.

Prosecutor Michel Valet said Wednesday that he had ordered a police investigation into the incidents.

The school's e-mail system reportedly filled up with messages calling for the murder of Jews and linking the attack to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, according to AFP.

The gunman, Mohammed Merah, who was killed by police after a 30-hour siege, told French police that he killed the Jewish students at the school in revenge for Palestinian children killed in Gaza, and had killed three French soldiers the previous week for serving in Afghanistan.

Rabbi Jonathan Sandler, 30, and his two young sons, as well as the 8-year-old daughter of the school's principal, were killed in the March 21 attack.

It was also reported Wednesday that Merah would be buried in Algeria at the request of his father.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 08:27 AM

From Guardian today.
(Please note use of word "Islamist.")
(Please note that Merah is being reported as an Islamist and not as a random madman.)


French police arrested 10 suspected Islamist militants in early-morning raids on Wednesday in a clampdown ordered by President Nicolas Sarkozy, after seven people were killed last month by an al-Qaida-inspired gunman.

The DCRI domestic intelligence service, supported by elite police commandos, carried out arrests in the southern cities of Marseille and Valence, two towns in the south-west and in the north-eastern town of Roubaix, a police source said.

The pre-dawn raids follow the arrest of 19 people on 30 March, a week after police snipers shot dead Mohamed Merah, who killed three Jewish schoolchildren, a rabbi and three soldiers in a spate of attacks around Toulouse.

"Those arrested have a similar profile to Mohamed Merah," a local police source said. "They are isolated individuals, who are self-radicalised."

He said the suspects were tracked on Islamist forums expressing extreme views and said they were preparing to travel to areas including Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Sahel belt to wage jihad.

Some of those arrested had already travelled and returned to France, the source said.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 12:08 PM

One comment and no more
You appear to miss the point totally
Whether this man is insane or not is of no significance to me whatever,
What is interesting is your desparation to prove him sane without the slightest evidence whatever of his mental state other than that already given by Bernard Squarcini the intelligence chief.
"Please note that Merah...."
Please note that there has been no contradictory evidence of Mehra's mental state since that quote published some time ago.
You are relying entirely on random inconsequential press reports to dispute the findings of officials on the spot even when there has been no further information put forward - NO FURTHER EVIDENCE ON HIS STATE OF MIND EXISTS AT THE PRESENT TIME.
As with the case of Breivik, you have consistently ignored existing evidence to present the conclusion that a Christian mass murderer who claims to have killed in order to make a political point is insane, while a Muslim who does the same must be cconsidered in full posession of his mental faculties and it is his 'Mulslimness' which has made him a killer.
My only reason for participating in threads such as this is to argue that these tragedies should never be used to further the prejudice and bigotry of people like yourself - so clearly obvous here
Game over
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 01:57 PM

As with the case of Breivik, you have consistently ignored existing evidence to present...
...your desparation to prove him sane without the slightest evidence whatever

I have not ignored evidence!
I have not sought to prove anything.
I have just reported what evidence there is.

Breivik. The prosecution will accept that he is delusional unless new evidence is presented.
Merah. "Those (29 Islamists) arrested have a similar profile to Mohamed Merah," a local police source said"

I expect a withdrawal of your accusations
What "accusations" Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 02:43 PM

For the record Jim, it was you who raised the question of sanity.
In your first post you pronounced Merah to be a "nutter" without any evidence at all!

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 12:30 PM

French police have just said they are dealing with a new serial killer.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/french-fear-serial-killer-murders-143338401.html