BS: Toulouse killings

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 11:22 AM

"The term "Islamist" is still being used as a description. "
Out of habit, I would guess

Or, you could be wrong about the usage of this word Jim.
I say you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 11:04 AM

"The term "Islamist" is still being used as a description. "
Out of habit, I would guess
Suggest you look up the Sunday Times report and the extensive article, otherwise you will be relying on out-of date information, which might some people.....
"do some homework."
You'd do better to send this to the Toulouse police
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 10:46 AM

The Telegraph, 12 minutes ago.
Nicolas Sarkozy, in mid-campaign for re-election has said French security services would launch a hunt for Islamic extremists following the Toulouse killing spree by the Islamist gunman Mohamed Merah.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: bobad
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 09:05 AM

Apologists, you don't know what you're talking about -- do some homework.

French killer's brother charged
By Rory Mulholland, Agence France-Presse March 26, 2012

The brother of an Islamist gunman whose grisly murder spree shocked France was charged Sunday with complicity in the attacks, but his lawyer said he should not be made a scapegoat.

Abdelkader Merah denied any involvement in the shootings of three French soldiers, three Jewish schoolchildren and a trainee rabbi - attacks claimed by his younger brother Mohammed Merah, 23. Merah, who said he had links to al-Qaeda, died Thursday in an exchange of gunfire after a prolonged standoff with police at his Toulouse apartment.

His elder brother had reportedly said he was "proud" of Merah's actions - a claim his lawyer Anne Sophie Laguens sought to dispel after Abdelkader was charged on Sunday.

"He is not at all proud of the acts of his brother, like was said in the press," she said. "He strongly condemns them. He hopes he doesn't become a scapegoat."

Police and prosecutors have described Abdelkader Merah, 29, as a more radical Islamist than his brother and said he has long been known to police for his "fundamentalist religious convictions," a police source said. Police knew about the elder brother since 2007, when he allegedly helped jihadists get to Iraq. He is considered a hard line Islamist who pushed Mohamed Merah in an increasingly radical direction, a police source said. Merah and his girlfriend, Yamina Mesbah, were taken in for questioning Wednesday. Mesbah was released Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:33 AM

The term "Islamist" is still being used as a description.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:29 AM

"March 22 2012 2:42 PM "
Posting out-of-date news reports that have been superseded by contrary information suggests an agenda - as does posting those of the official attitude to Breivik's mental health.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:16 AM

Times Online
Islamist gunman Mohamed Merah, who killed seven people in the French city of Toulouse including three children outside a Jewish school, has been killed in a shootout at his flat. In this audio dispatch, Europe Editor Charles Bremner discusses a case which has shocked France. Click on

March 22 2012 4:10 PM
   
An Islamist gunman who killed seven people in the French city of Toulouse died after being shot through the head by a police sniper during a shootout in his flat. Mohamed Merah leapt from a first-floor bathroom window, still shooting, after counter-terrorist commandos stormed the

March 22 2012 2:42 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:12 AM

"Islamist" still applies.
Did they use the term?
Times only available online with payment.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:08 AM

"BBC i day ago. "
Sunday Times - 1 day ago:
"According to this morning's Sunday Times police are treating the killer as having no clear terrorist links and are "inclined to see him as a lone wolf - "a self starter"" whose behaviour indicates that he "does not seem to be Islamic" "
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:01 AM

Richard, I agree with everything Keith posted on this thread, in fact I agree with you. Sadly it was Jim brought Ulster politics into it. That was coat trailing, nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:56 AM

That, Bluesman, would appear to be a difference between you and the OP.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:41 AM

"A brother of Islamist gunman Mohamed Merah"
BBC i day ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:39 AM

Jim, Keith A. and I only share the same Christian name. I do agree with what he says here, simply because it is logical.

This was a very sad event, it should not be used to score cheap points against someone you disagree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:25 AM

"as they do not seem to be relevant to this discussion"
Much in what you say Richard, but, as "thread drift" seems to have raised its ugly head recently, none of this has anything to do with the Toulouse killings anyway as the perpetrator seems not to be regarded as an Islamist of any persuasion by those involved.
There is a danger that if the discussion continues as if he was, the rope will be over the branch and the prisoner dragged out of the jailhouse (metaphorically speaking of course) yet again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:11 AM

I have considered the wikipedia discussion (actually under the heading "Islamism" and not "Islamist") and it seems to me that it contains unnecessary distinctions which could be used to comfort aggressive extremists - but it fails to make two important distinctions.

First it fails (at least, fails clearly) to distinguish between those who advocate a political role for Islam within Islamic states and those with a majority of Moslems therein, on the one hand, and those who advocate violent invasion and overthrow (and compulsory conversion) of infidel states and infidels (sort of mirror image Crusaders, if you like that sort of irony) on the other. I have omitted those who favour persuasion rather than compulsion as they do not seem to be relevant to this discussion.

Second, it fails to distinguish between those who pursue such objectives individually, and those who pursue such objectives as part of organised groupings.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:48 AM

Continue?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:46 AM

"At least our forum is free of people who fail to make those distinctions."
And I'm sure you will continue to defnd Bluesman and his ilk to the last ditch
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:39 AM

At least our forum is free of people who fail to make those distinctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:31 AM

Definition here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism
Even within its own definition it is complicated, but made even more so by racists who use it as a blanket term to describe terrorist and then apply it to all Muslims, or, at the very least, suggest that all Muslims are culturally prone to terrorism.
As you rightly point out Scouse, similar attitudes exist towards Ireland - Republican = terrorist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 04:58 AM

"Islamist". I used it, and believe it to be accepted to mean, a radicalised militant extremist Muslim fighting for a global Caliphate.
I suggested "Jihadist" as an alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 04:53 AM

I think it's quite credible that Merah did act alone. He may well style himself as an 'Al-Qaeda' fighter. Pretty much anyone can, if they want to. Plus he's Algerian, which means there's possibly a specific dynamic at work concerning his motivations with regard to the shared history of France and Algeria. All of which means that when you look at specifics the story becomes at once more complex and more interesting (if that's the right word).

I don't as yet find it credible that he acted out of mental illness. Personality disorder, perhaps, but that's another phenomenon. Clearly he possessed the capacity to formulate a plan and carry it out just as the IRA, UVF, PLO and all the other highly-motivated terror groups of the past 40-odd years have done (though that doesn't, as I say, preclude him acting alone).

I find the use of the term 'Islamist' interesting. What does that mean? Is it a synonym for Muslim? Is it a term for someone whose whose membership of a religious community motivates them to political action? Does that make Irish nationalists 'Catholicists?' Does that make Catholics suspect because the PIRA and RIRA are or were Catholics?

It's perfectly legitimate to believe in a united Irish republic. It's perfectly legitimate to believe society would benefit from the operation of Sharia law. It's not legitimate to act upon that belief as a terrorist. It's also not legitimate to assume that all those who support those aims are terrorists. That's the dilemma and the complication of living in a liberal, pluralist society. There are always alternatives if that's not the sort of society you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 09:28 AM

"The court has yet to decide whether to accept it."
BTW - the court have already accepted it, decided that this was probably a mistaken 'rush to judgement' and are gracious enough to reconsider their decision - not a lot of that in evidence here unfortunately.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 08:28 AM

Have you never thought of setting up shop and putting these incompetent arseholes out of business
Sheesh......!
I suggest that when you seek their help for your "little problem" you ask them do they do 'meglomania'
Noticed you missed out the Sabra and Shatila massacres and the slaughter of Gazans in your list
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 07:53 AM

your somewhat strange obsession with the idea that you know better than those directly concerned with handling the case.

I only know what I read.
I read that all his psychiatrists, appointed by the court, say he is mad.
The court has yet to decide whether to accept it.
They may indeed refuse to accept that plea.
Or they might.
OK?

Anybody who advocates and/or carries out the random killing of innocent people, men, women and children, and describes it as heroism is as mad as a hatter as far as I'm concerned,
So that is Merah and his brother,
and all the Gazan missile launchers,
and all the 9/11 hijackers and their trainers and controllers.
and the London 7/7 and 21/7 bombers.
and the Milan and Bali bombers.
and the Mumbai attackers.
and the shoe bomber, the underpants bomber and all the liquid bombers.
and the Nigeria church bombers,
and the whole of al Qaeda.
All just mad as hatters.
There would seem to be a pandemic of it Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 06:35 AM

"Because he was an Islamist".
For the record:
According to this morning's Sunday Times police are treating the killer as having no clear terrorist links and are "inclined to see him as a lone wolf - "a self starter"" whose behaviour indicates that he "does not seem to be Islamic"
Obviously as mad as Breivik, or not, as the case may be!
"Bales and Breivik acted alone".
So, it would appear, did Mohammed Merah.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 05:28 AM

"He is mad."
Then so is the Norwegian government and all the other experts who contradicted and questioned the original findings.
Perhaps you might call them in and ask them to sort out your own litle problem - your somewhat strange obsession with the idea that you know better than those directly concerned with handling the case.
"but you coupled it with bombing "
Sorry Mike - it was my intention to present both as random examples of outrages inspired by religion, certainly not to suggest that the two were linked other than in that way.
My apologies.
"Mad, or Islamist/Jihadist?"
Anybody who advocates and/or carries out the random killing of innocent people, men, women and children, and describes it as heroism is as mad as a hatter as far as I'm concerned, whatever religion they choose to dress it in - plenty of examples of such behaviour in other religions.... "God on our side", and all that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 02:29 AM

Islamist - what has been reported about him here in the UK has been that he was in trouble most of his life as a juvenile delinquent and petty criminal who as a Muslim was "radicalised" in prison.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: KHNic
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 06:53 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvoajDAOHkc&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: KHNic
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 06:52 PM

To those who would wish the guillotine:

In French

or In English

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 05:11 PM

As far as Breivik is concerned, even the Norwegian authorities have yet to make up their minds what course to make of him

All the psychiatrists who have worked with him have made up their minds.
He is mad.

Like Bales he acted alone.

All those Jihadists/Islamists can not all be mad.
Merah's brother for instance.
If he admitted knowing what was planned he would rot in jail for life, but he says he is PROUD of what his brother did.
Mad, or Islamist/Jihadist?

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 04:48 PM

For the record: here in America, at least, it's been many years since anyone bombed a family planning clinic.

In fact, of the tiny number of such bombings, most were carried out by one man, Eric Rudolph, who's now serving several consecutive life sentences (which means he will never be paroled).

A tiny number of people have been murdered over the years for providing abortions. Too many, obviously, but there's never been an epidemic.

So-called "severe violence" against clinics and providers, as measured by the Feminist Majority Foundation in 2005, was declining for a dozen years - and note that the Foundation defines "severe violence" to include "threats" (i.e., scary words), "blockades" (i.e., civil disobedience), and "stalkings."


http://www.feminist.org/research/cvsurveys/clinic_survey2005.pdf

Since 2005, of course, there's been an upswing in right-wing anger about many things, but it seems that most angry Americans still know how to control themselves.

The predominantly Catholic and Evangelical National Right to Life Committee, the leading anti-abortion lobby, has vigorously condemned all violence against abortion clinics and providers.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 04:32 PM

The fact that he shouted "Allahu Akbar" when he killed his victims may be a clue to what motivated him.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 04:26 PM

Yes, Jim ~~ I agreed it was the right word to use about the abuse scandal; but you coupled it with bombing ~

"Christian churchmen who can't keep their hands off children, or bomb family planning clinics"

was what you wrote. I repeat ~ that is a very confused statement: read it again; you have distinctly accused churchmen [i.e. clergy], nit just of abuse, but also of bombings, haven't you?

I say again ~~ CONFUSED ~ if not worse.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 04:20 PM

"Because he was an Islamist. Would you prefer Jihadist?""
Neither thanks, I'd prefer to point out that we don't know who the **** he was, what he belonged to yet and what inspired him to do what he did - as Richard has pointed out.
He may have claimed to be a Jihadist, just as Breivik is still claiming to be a Christian patriot hero who was acting to expose the traitors of his country.
As things stand, know we nothing about either - certainly not enough to make a judgement, yet on the basis of this 'nothing', the usual suspect has one absolved as being mad and another, acting in exactly the same way, identified as a political fanatic - wonder if it has anything to do with his being a Muslim (presuming he is one - I read somewhere that one of his relatives was quoted as saying "I didn't even know he prayed"??
It won't be surprising if it turns out he was a religious fanatic - plenty of them about, of all persuasions, but until we do, let's make our judgement with the information we have, not on agenda-driven guesswork.
As far as Breivik is concerned, even the Norwegian authorities have yet to make up their minds what course to make of him - and I would suggest they have a tad more information than we do.
Mike:
You know as little of this guy as I do, so this is aimed at you as much as it is anybody else.
I wouldn't for one minute do anythong other than damn what he's done as a horrific crime, whatever his reason, or lack of it, but I do object to the idea that it could be used as a stick to beat all Muslims - you never know - such things have been known to happen - want the name of some threads???
Miss your point about 'churchman' - its the term adopted fairly widely over here when referring to the clerical abuse scandle, so if you're trying to score points on semantics - not impressed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 02:37 PM

Whatever he was he was an arsehole and now he's a dead arsehole!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 02:09 PM

I suspect Bales is over-the-top PTSD and whatever else he is has little to do with what happened.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: KHNic
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 02:07 PM

All I know is that my children attend school in France, although not in Toulouse. I am more than a little concerned about any escalation or reprisal attacks. This matters to me somewhat more than the above points scoring, as I am sure it does to many parents across France.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 01:36 PM

Is S-Sgt Bales a professed practicing Christian or is that just a conventional "default" position.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 01:03 PM

Richard, from Newsday.
The brother Abdelkader had already been linked to Iraqi Islamist networks.

The SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors Internet messages, reported Thursday that a lesser-known jihadist group was claiming responsibility for the attacks in France. SITE said Jund al-Khilafah issued a statement saying "Yusuf of France" led an attack Monday, the day of Jewish school shootings. There was no independent confirmation of the claim.

Authorities said Merah espoused a radical form of Islam and had been to Afghanistan and the Pakistani militant stronghold of Waziristan, where he claimed to have received training from al-Qaida.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 12:56 PM

a Muslim who murders Jews, does so because - he is a Muslim
No Jim.
Because he was an Islamist.
Would you prefer Jihadist?
That is OK by me.
I did state clearly, because I foresaw you would try to accuse me of something, that "most Muslims find his behaviour abhorrent."

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 12:55 PM

Not

"because - he is a Muslim -",

Jim. Because he is an Islamist [a form of what you will, in your scattergun fashion, call 'madness']. You are not so thick as not to see the distinction, for all your pretending that no such distinction exists because it won't suit your preconceptions. Your extension of the 'abuse' responsibility to the 'hierarchy' is no kind of reply to my having pointed out your misuse of the term 'churchman'.

What 'double standards'. Indicate where you purport to have detected any basis for such an accusation in any recent post of mine ~~ or any post at any time, for that matter...

Your desperately confused arguments are doing your intellectual repute no credit.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 12:45 PM

Indeed I am not a PostModernist. To be such would be to fly in the face of my Boring Old Fart's Credo, I have quoted it on this forum before; but, just in case anyone hasn't stumbled on it before, here is Michael's non-PostModern BOF's Credo:

··· Boring·Old·Fart credo: to which, at nearly 80, feel self entitled:   viz that my Literature shall be Comprehensible;   my Art Representational;   my Music Tonal: naught else shall penetrate my perception-zone. — ···

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 12:45 PM

My point is that while people here continue to express their antipathy to one or other group/community/religion/race by using horrific events like the Toulouse killings, (a practice which has now become standard practice by some people on this forum), these arguments become weapons of hate and mistrust.
In this particular instance, a Christian killer who slaughters eighty odd young people does so because he is mad, a Christian solder who massacres 17 men women and children does so because he is mad, a Muslim who murders Jews, does so because - he is a Muslim - bollocks!!
Keith is displaying his hatred of Muslims - again, you are displaying
your double standards - again - we really have been here before.
Incidently - the culprits in the child abuse scandal were not just tha clergymen who carried out the abuse, but the heirarchy who facilitated that abuse by covering it up and allowing it to continue for as long as it did - it was a crime perpetrated by the church, not just the abusers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 12:35 PM

Words mean what they mean ~ not what holders of partisan preconceptions think they ought to mean.

Michael, obviously you're not a Postmodernist, or you'd know that words are incredibly malleable and shift all over the place, and I am reminded of a great title of a book of American Indian short stories called "Writing in the Enemy's Language." Now I'll take of my English MA hat. . .

Everyone take a big breath. Now breathe out. Step away from the keyboard and have a life for the afternoon. Or spend more time above the line.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:59 AM

I would have suggested that "Islamist" was one who proposed the Islamic takeover of the world and the imposition of Islamic rule and law on all.

The religious nutter now dead in Toulouse went, I think, even further.

And I should perhaps draw another distinction, namely that he alleged he was acting on behalf of certain groups, but as far as I am aware they have not yet claimed him as one of their own.

I would also add that it seems that professed Muslims are disproportionately represented in recent times in atrocities - albeit in some cases in response to what could be seen as attacks on their culture or beliefs: but before them (to list just a few) it was the Irish, the Algerians, "freedom fighters" in Malaya, the Catholic establishment against heresy, and mainstream Crusaders - oh and Romans against Christians and Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:44 AM

Please explain the meaning of The Norwegian government has virtually decided to put Breivik on trial and why you think I have a problem with it.

Please do not suggest I support the murder of refugees or anyone else.
Try not to use the personal attack strategy on this one.

SSgt Bales.
That is worth a thread on its own.
I doubt he was sane when he acted.

All those Islamist killers were operating as agents for global organisations.
They have sometimes used children and vulnerable people to carry out simple bomb planting tasks, but the ones I mentioned knew exactly what they were doing, as did their trainers, controllers and accomplices.
Bales and Breivik acted alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:05 AM

Forgive me for saying so, Jim; but you tend to get confused when approaching a topic on which you have strong feelings - e.g. ~~

"Christian churchmen who can't keep their hands off children, or bomb family planning clinics"

In the first bit of this formulation, you appear to be using 'churchmen', accurately according to usage, to mean clergy, who are indeed predominantly the ones who bring shame on their denominations by abusing children in their charge or parishes ~~ mainly RC but occasional Anglican clergy also. But it is NOT churchmen [i.e. clergy] surely, tho it may be those claiming to be acting on Xtn principles, who do any bombings of family planning clinics, tho your locution suggests that you think it is.

In general, I get a strong sense in this last post of a fair bit of ground-shifting on your part. And you have evaded my challenge as to your disagreement with my gloss on "Islamism/ist".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 09:45 AM

You seem to be set on make this another one-to-one and destroy yet another thread - one more time
The Norwegian government has virtually decided to put Breivik on trial as a criminal - you appear to have problems with that.
I await with interest to read what you have to say about the American soldier who went on a rampage and massacred 17 men, women and children - having a 'bad-hair-day, no doubt!
Extremists who kill or persecute for their religion or their particular philosophy - any religion - are sickos - Muslim extremists who wish to destroy infidels, Zionists in pursuit of a two-thousand year old fairy story, or Christian churchmen who can't keep their hands off children, or bomb family planning clinics - every single one of them is a menace and it's more than a little ingenuous to single out one particular religion and say "It wos them wot started it guv" - or "look what they're doing".
Unchecked religion is toxic and needs to be controlled, and it little becomes people who have supported massacres of civilians (refugees for instance) and persecution of whole populations to select as targets other religions behaving similarly.
Despite claims to the contrary, I have never at any time given my support to any terrorist group or state - the same cannot be claimed for some of those here.
The problem as far as I'm concerned is not religion per se, but fanatics who use those religions to abuse and murder.
If Breivik is a nutter, so was Mohammed Merah and so is Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, and to claim otherwise is to apply double standards - not unknown on these threads.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 08:11 AM

Tarek Fatah: Muslim vs. Islamism

Subject: RE: BS: Toulouse killings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 07:57 AM

'"I agree with MtheGM"
I don't'
,..,.,

~~Why not, Jim? All I postulated was the current usage of a word, both among those who are its referent and those who refer.

Words mean what they mean ~ not what holders of partisan preconceptions think they ought to mean.

~M~