BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan

Subject: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sulliv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 05:27 PM

Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan.

I read a very interesting article in NewsWeek today. It encompasses and expands on many of my religious beliefs. It also nicely encapsulates many of my fears and criticisms about organized religion.

At first I was going to include this post in the "Creationist Eureka" thread that I started. But I feel that this article is too good and too serious to be discussed in the silly light I originally cast on that subject.

Please read the article and discuss how it compares to your own arguments and beliefs on religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 06:08 PM

I read Andrew Sullivan's The Dish blog regularly. I appreciate his perspective (even if I don't always agree with it) and his airing of alternative views. It's a fairly eclectic assortment of stuff (which some key issues that are followed).

He calls himself Catholic (or has, at least), but as that article shows, he has strong disagreements with the teachings of the Church hierarchy, not least because he's openly gay. He has coined the term "Christanist" (in parallel with a term coined earlier, "Muslimist") to designate those who proclaim their religion and push it in the public sphere, but who don't necessarily seem to follow its core teachings well.

As a non-Christian, I read his posts on religion for my liberal education.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 06:36 PM

Looks good, Jack. I haven't had a chance to read it thoroughly yet, but I will.

I'll be back.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 09:34 PM

I've read it, and I think it's an excellent article, Jack. There are a good number of Christians who do see it the same way Arthur Sullivan does. A fair number of them in this town, I'd say, and there are definitely some very progressive ministers in this town who see it as he does (several of them being women, by the way).

This line in his article really struck me: "What is politics if not a dangerous temptation toward controlling others rather than reforming oneself?"

BINGO! That is what I dislike so much about politics. We are in this life not to control others, but to control and reform ourselves, and that is exactly what Jesus was teaching and so powerfully demonstrating in his own selfless and loving conduct. He also taught that we should love one another, forgive one another, help one another with no thought of our own gain, and do no violence to one another. Those teachings...if enough people took them really seriously and acted on them...could heal the world.

Those teachings are also directly opposed to aggressive robber baron capitalism and marketing, as it is presently being practiced, as well as aggressive communism, and indeed all aggressive forms of political and financial control. They are also opposed to launching "pre-emptive" wars, needless to say...

It is selfishness and the desire for personal gain at the expense of others that is the secret (or not so secret) agenda behind our ruling political and financial powers these days. They have a lot...they want even more.

If Jesus was here now, and enough people were listening to him, I bet the present ruling powers would label him a "terrorist" and would attempt to do away with him as quickly as possible. They'd kill him. (and that's just what the ruling powers in his day did too, and for the same reasons...they were afraid of losing their dominance over the minds of the common people, and perhaps losing their privileged status in the process)

How much has really changed?

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 10:00 PM

Well, as a Follower of Christ, it has become very difficult to find a church that isn't about political indoctrination...

BTW, Jesus' teachings ain't rocket science and I think He'd be plenty pissed off at just how many folks using "faith" (ha) to justify some messed up behaviors...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 04:12 AM

Interestingly, the guy sums up, rather succinctly, some of the waffle I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to put across in the young earth thread Jack mentions.

I have nothing but respect for people who can use a set of values to live by, and the glimmer of hope in the salvation or whatever it is that belief can offer.

I abhor the control freak status of many organised religions though, and found this both interesting and thought provoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 04:21 AM

Within any church (as in our village) there's a wide selection of religious types, from the casual to the sincere to the fundamentalist control freak. In fact I'd say that each member of a church is slightly different and unique in what they believe and what they bring to the community. Even among the disciples of Jesus there were huge differences in approach and commitment. I personally feel the best Church is that which encompasses as many as possible of all these without condemnation or exclusion. IMO the C of E does quite well (but not perfectly) in achieving this.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 04:41 AM

I too am a member of the C of E and just want to endorse what Eliza said.
I am away to an outdoor service in Hertford involving all the denominations in the town.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: bobad
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 10:22 AM

Another Boy For Jesus

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 10:41 AM

I support the myth of Jesus (as does Joseph Campbell) as a teaching device.
The character of Jesus is defined specifically in the Beatitudes which means
that Christianity if it is to be consistently taught, is a Pacifist religion.
Any deviation from this view is incorrect. (Thou shalt not kill and turn the other cheek).

Non-violent resistance is consistent with the character of Jesus in the Beatitudes.

The violent apologist Saint Augustine corrupted Christianity with his "just wars"
doctrine.

The historical existence of Jesus can't be established, not in the Dead Sea Scrolls
or earlier accounts of Christianity. There is no DNA, no scientific support for
this existence.

That said, there is value in the pacifistic character of Jesus and any attempt to paint this character as a warrior or an apologist for war is Orwellian.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 10:46 AM

""Well, as a Follower of Christ, it has become very difficult to find a church that isn't about political indoctrination...""

If following Jesus' message in everday life is what you normally do, then your church is wherever you happen to be and you need no other.

If you have the ability to deal directly with the manufacturer, why do you feel that you need wholesalers or retailers?

I've lived all my adult life with that belief and always tried (moderately successfully) to do what Jesus would have wanted.

Black frocks and back to front collars signally fail to impress, because even the best of them are inadvertently diluting rather than teaching the pure message as delivered by the man himself.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 11:02 AM

Religion is politics. That's why it's important to observe the Separation of Church and State.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 11:03 AM

They are good rules to live by Don, but a church is a community.
Not all churches use regalia or even leaders.
"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 11:10 AM

How important Stringsinger?
England-Britain-UK has struggled on for a thousand years in spite of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 11:11 AM

Many communities can become cults. This is possible among churches.

The famous Native American chief observed that churches are where white men go
to fight about god.

"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."

The big question is who is "I"? Seems to be a difference of opinion on this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Arkie
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 11:23 AM

From reading the four gospels, one could conclude that the Sadducees were the ultra conservatives of first century Judaism. The Pharisees may have been liberal compared to the Sadducees but they were legalists. Both groups put form above personal discipleship or defined discipleship by adherence to form and ritual. One could conclude that the real struggle facing Jesus was not "Judaism" but radical conservatism, a defense of an archaic belief system. A system that was also condemned by Old Testament prophets. Many of those prophets suffered or died at the hands of defenders of the "system".

The Apostle Paul was challenged by "legalists" and warned against the legalists in the early church through his letters. Readers often assume that the legalists were Jewish Christians, but here again the problem was not the "Jewish" part but the insistence on forcing others to accept or follow the system supported by the legalists.

One of the things that disturbs me about modern legalists or radical conservatives is the disregard of truth. To so many of this ilk, "truth" is whatever they choose it to be. They are as likely to place Fox News on the same level or possibly a higher level than the Bible. They declare that truth comes from a certain sector and all else is falsehood. "Moderate" is now a bad word in some sectors.

Enough from me. Jack, thanks for posting the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 11:42 AM

""The big question is who is "I"? Seems to be a difference of opinion on this issue.""

That is a difference of opinion which is (or should be) acceptable to moderates on both sides of the argument.

Real science has never stated, or tried to prove, that there is no God. Their position remains that in terms of what they have discovered about the Universe there is no scientific evidence of the need for one.

Moderate believers have faith in the existence of a God, but are also capable of understanding that this cannot be scientifically proven. However many of those people are scientists also, and are able to reconcile their work and their faith without difficulty.

The point that bothers me about the quote is this sentence:   "
"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.""

I have, as I said above, always treated my faith as something private between me and God.

Have I got it wrong through all these years, and should I go looking for another to join me? I ask because to me that starts to sound like an organised religion, which is exactly what I have been avoiding.........Bugger!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 11:52 AM

Follow Jesus not religion.

Isn't that supposedly what J was on about in the first place?
Live right -and here are some pointers- but don't turn my teachings into some new religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 12:02 PM

(correction to my post: "Islamist", rather than "Muslimist")

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 12:10 PM

"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.""

I have, as I said above, always treated my faith as something private between me and God.

I have no trouble believing that both are true. I think that follow Jesus' example and teachings is a perfectly legitimate path and indeed the right one for me.

On the other hand.

On Palm Sunday My wife, and I went to a service of the Salvation Army Church with my father and his second wife, who grew up in that faith. The service had no trace of militarism or threat of "fire and brimstone" it stressed, service, faith, love and good deeds. It was very close in my mind to the teachings of Jesus. The service had a heavy family element and was quite intimate as there were only about 40 attendees and about 15 of those were related to the Majors (the pastor and his wife) including their infant grandson who in a small moving ceremony was dedicated to the Church. I gathered that was an analog to the baptism which was performed on me at that age.

I am not saying that I have, because I have not. But I have no doubt that if you were to seek it out, there is enough variety in Christian worship, that you could find a group that suits your beliefs and preferences to a tee. Then again since people would be involved and even with the spirit of Jesus as a presence in that group. (see first quote on this post.) People would soon disagree and drift off.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 12:14 PM

Isn't that supposedly what J was on about in the first place?
Live right -and here are some pointers- but don't turn my teachings into some new religion?

Maybe not a new religion, certainly a new church.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 12:37 PM

BTW, Thanks for the clicky whoever did it. Excellent Mud-elfing!

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 12:44 PM

Today (Good Friday) I read in church a part of the gospel where Jesus tells Pontius Pilate that he came to lead people to the Truth. Pilate's reply sums up for me all the natural doubts and questions Christianity poses. Pilate replied, "What is Truth?"

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Amos
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 05:30 PM

A long time a go, a bunch of scientists -- starting with Albert Einstein -- discovered the shocking truth that the election of absolute external time (defined by Newton) and the notion of an absolute rest state against which all motion could be measured, were alike arbitrary, capricious, and essentially superstitions that had been adopted as a form of comfort.

The alternative--that spacetime's constant is only the velocity of light and that motion and even time is relative to reference frames--is much harder to think with if you are accustomed to the earth-born and body-centered experiential frame of reference. But, in a larger sense, it is still "more true" even though less comfortable.

Jes' sayin'.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 01:34 PM

Watch out for the King James bible. There is a political aspect to cherry picking in it that defends the idea of compromising all the tenets of religion that were warring at the time.
It was written by scribes who couldn't really understand the meaning of what they were writing, being dutifully governed by those clerics with certain agendas. King James used the bible as a political tool.

All the Apostles were dead long before they were have reputed to written texts under their names.

The question remains: Who would Jesus kill? Who would Jesus bomb? Who would Jesus support in mobilizing these activities? Who would Jesus starve? Would Jesus make a good millionaire or billionaire? Would Jesus subjugate Palestinians, Afghans, Iraqis, Iranians or even North Koreans? Is Jesus Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or even a Scientologist? Maybe Jesus was an atheist.

You see the problem with a "meme".

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 02:47 PM

Amos... so, what yer sayin is let yer mind wander off? think outside the box?

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 01:29 AM

I donno gnu, I think he is saying something like, If even the most basic idea of time can be questioned after 300 years of solid scientific thought, them maybe our beliefs should not be quite so rigid.


I'm not positive, I'm just saying...

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 06:04 AM

Pay more attention to the message and less to the messenger. That's been my mantra for quite a while, no matter which religion I may have been studying at any given time.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 06:22 AM

Follow Jesus? But NOBODY can be sure what Jesus said!
There have been books upon books written telling us that virtually everything did and taught can be found in earlier works/myths.
There is also more than a suspicion that "things" were added to Jesus' teaching for various ulterior motives.

The story that always bother me is the one where Jesus talks about a land owner who needed men to work in his fields. The landowner goes out in the morning and hires a number of men to work all day and they agree on a wage.
Later in the day, the land owner realizes that he will need more men and hire a number.
At the end of the day, the land owner pays the men who have worked all day AND the men who have worked only half a day the same amount.
When the men who have worked all day complain, the landowner simple tells them that he has paid them the agreed rate and that if he wishes to pay the other men the same wage, for only half the work, that - in effect - is too bad

Now, surely that was inserted by some land owning Roman!

Who, today, would not feel aggrieved, to find that a fellow worker was being paid twice as much money for doing the same job.

A lot of what is attributed to Jesus is very impressive, but I'm afraid the reality is that "Jesus" is just a pastishe of wise sayings.

Which is not a bad thing, as long as we leave it there, and forget the "God thing", the walking on water etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 09:36 AM

"the election of absolute external time (defined by Newton) and the notion of an absolute rest state against which all motion could be measured, were alike arbitrary, capricious, and essentially superstitions that had been adopted as a form of comfort.
The alternative--that spacetime's constant is only the velocity of light and that motion"

Thanks for the provoking thoughts Amos. Last night in a dream I was speaking with my Grandmother.

I said to her: "Isn't it strange, how I can be here speaking with you, and yet you are dead?"
She replied smiling: "Yes, I am dead love. But I'm also wise."
Sitting back in her chair, she told me: "I control time, through dance."
I knew this was of significance. Describing how she in her non-living state mastered her experience of reality.
At this point I began to experience sorrow at her loss, and started to cry. She said: "Come along now, lets have a cup of tea."

Speaking last night about dance as a universal mystical metaphor for both creation itself and our interaction with creation and also how movement and time are key both to literal dance and to the fundamental building blocks underpinning the physical universe.

I'd be curious if you (or anyone else) had anything further to add?

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 12:35 PM

Tunesmith, the point of the story is that it is never too late.
A late convert will receive the same reward.
The story of The Prodigal Son carries the same message and is quite in line with all His teachings.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 12:45 PM

Tunesmith,

It is also a practical lesson in business.

It can be neatly summed up as follows.

"A deal is a deal."

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 01:40 PM

It means what it says!!!
Bosses can treat the workers anyway they like. And if the workers don't like it, well, that's just too bad because they are going to have to lump it!
And if Jesus thinks that's a fair way to treat workers ( i.e. causing unrest and division) then who can blame the bosses for following his lead.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Amos
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 01:49 PM

CS:

A perfect tale, dampened only by that sorry excuse "...in a dream", which is often used as an apology to Newtonian space-time guards.

Your grandmother has the perfect right of it, and I applaud her for being bold and graceful enough to break through. I am reminded that even relativity had a long uphill fight before the great minds of physics at the time would accept it, and some, like Poincare, never could quite let go of the notion of a reassuring box of space and time letting all viewpoints measure in common. That adhesion, or appetite for commonality, is one of the trickiest hexes in Pandora's box.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 08:10 PM

Right, Tunesmith. And what bothers me is the stuff about turning the other cheek. What rubbish, Jesus. If ever there was a formula for allowing injustice to continue...

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 09:50 PM

Guest, Tunesmith: I've had extensive experience with a wide selection of conservative, often very literalistic Christians throughout a fairly long life. I've found a lot of them narrow minded, and small minded, in many ways. But I would challange you to find one of them who thinks that the story of the vineyard owner is meant to suggest that that is an appropriate way for a literal employer to treat workers. It's understood, in a word, as Keith A. just said it. Within that there may be nuances. To a strict fundamentalist, "a late convert" might have to mean someone who accepted that "subsitutionary blood sacrifice" late in life. To others it might mean that, to their understanding, if a person spent much of his life absorbed in self, living in thoughtlessness or worse toward others, but toward the end of life experienced a genuine change, and tried to be the best fellow human he could, then God would "pay the wages" due to the kind of person he had become at the last.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Amos
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 10:37 PM

Actually, turning the other cheek often works wonders; but you have to gauge the other participants, and use it constructively. Like any line of dogma, it is not universally applicable.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 11:13 PM

The stuff put into the mouth of Jesus was a mish-mash of beliefs and tenets of various communities that once existed each with its own agenda. It's all over the place and has no consistency. If you try to "cut to the core" all you get is: Don't hurt people, don't do bad things, respect god, etc. I mean what kind of crap is that for a great teacher to teach? Is anybody going to seriously tell me they didn't know it was wrong to murder people before they encountered the words of Jesus?? I mean, come off it. Great teacher, my ass.

He didn't teach anything. It was just filler put there to carry their specific propaganda. Like sugar tell help the medicine go down, except it was more like poison. Even worse, much of this propaganda doesn't mean anything to us today. It was only relevant for that time period.

I can't believe people follow this stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 11:33 PM

A deal is a deal. Griping about someone else's deal is just childish.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford.
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 03:05 AM

? Is anybody going to seriously tell me they didn't know it was wrong to murder people before they encountered the words of Jesus??
Obviously not.
The 10 Commandments given to Moses centuries earlier.
Some things were new.
Turning the cheek, loving your enemy, giving more to a thief who steals from you....

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 03:08 AM

confirming my posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 07:55 AM

You have a point, josepp. A pity that we read what guys who never knew Jesus had to say. He should have written it down himself. A good example of God not quite being on the ball.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: frogprince
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 08:13 AM

"what bothers me is the stuff about turning the other cheek. What rubbish, Jesus. If ever there was a formula for allowing injustice to continue... "

You betcha: if Martin Luther King, or Ghandi, had just grabbed guns and blown away the oppressors they encountered, we would have a much better world now !!



And before some takes that at face value and responds to it...

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 10:02 AM

Steve, turning the other cheek is a way of describing civil disobedience. The myth of Jesus advocates that. What is rubbish is thinking that political or social struggles can be solved by violence. This is one of the problems with the atheist movement as I see it. Many are quick to "support the troops" in the way the Hitchens and his followers did. The U.S. military doesn't belong as a hegemonic force in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, Bahrain, or other bases in the world.

The mythology of Jesus is that he practiced non-violent revolution in his time against the Romans. A myth, as Joseph Campbell says, has a teaching role.
It's analogous to what is happening today in the U.S. and throughout the world.
Whether you believe Jesus existed or didn't has no bearing on the fact
that a non-violent world is more civilized then the militarization that is taking place and with it, the support of dictators. Atheists have to wake up to that realization if they want common sense to prevail.

Chris Hedges and I disagree on the role of religion, his being a divinity graduate from Harvard, but I agree with him that struggles for justice have to remain non-violent to succeed. Justice and violence don't go together.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Al
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 10:17 AM

Christianity is defined by what Christians do. That's the reality of it. Everything else is mental hogwash.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 10:28 AM

Christianity, defined by what so-called Christians do, is ambiguous at best, those calling themselves Christians doing terrible actions in the name of their religion, creating Crusades, wars, bloodshed, witch burning, racially motivated killings, bombing foreign countries and countless other unspeakable acts. This is not mental hogwash but fact.

Who is the arbiter about what Christians do? Many Christian actions seem inconsistent with the Beatitudes. The majority of Christians in the US support war, military hegemony,
violence, cruelty, racial and economic inequality and support candidates like Romney
and Sanctorum who claim they are religiously following orders.

None of these so-called Christians are "turning the other cheek" but support an unsupportable "just wars" theory.

The notion of Christianity has become mental hogwash.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 10:42 AM

If you think Jesus never existed (a presumption of certainty which I laugh down my sleeve at when I hear it), then do you also think that Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Quetzlcoatl, Lao-Tse, and Mohammed never existed?

And merely upon the fact that we can't historically prove that they did??? (with the one exception of Mohammed)

We can't historically prove one hell of a lot of stuff that actually happened in the past. Most of it, in fact. Amost everything that has happened in the past 20,000 years is not historically provable.

But I'll tell you this: great religions and great ideas do not arise out of thin air. They arise out of the lives of great individuals who had such a profound effect upon many people in their own time that the effect lingered for centuries or millenia afterward, and was not soon forgotten. Jesus, Buddha, Zoroaster, Quetzlcoatl, Mohammed, and other such great individuals were the reason that their religions started in the first place. It would not have happened without them. Their lives and their example were what set the entire thing in motion, and what inspired their followers to write down what happened.

To imagine, for the sake of your own emotional/intellectual/argumentative needs, that such a man did not even exist, even when confronted with the existence of a great religion based on his life and teachings, is utter foolishness. You are in no wise compelled to adopt his religion, and in no wise compelled to subscribe to his philosophy, but to say to yourself that "he never existed" is merely to state your own circular reasoning based on your own very strong emotional need to believe that he never existed. And that's laughable.

What it is, is this: a statement of blind faith on your part. Wishful thinking. You dearly want him to have never existed, therefore you believe it must be so...and the only possible excuse for supporting such an unlikely assertion that your hungry mind can come up is, "Well....we don't have any historical proof that he ever existed."   

Religions don't arise from the teachings of men who never existed! They arise directly from the teachings and lives of men who did exist, and who had a very big effect on many of those around them.

Short of that...short of the real presence of a remarkable teacher or prophet...it simply doesn't happen.

Naziism didn't happen without Hitler. Fascism didn't happen without Mussolini. Stalinism didn't happen without Stalin. Maoism didn't happen without Mao. Zoroastrianism didn't happen without Zoroaster. Buddhism didn't happen without Buddha. Freudian psychology didn't happen without Freud. Judaism didn't happen without Moses, King David, Solomon, etc. Napoleon's empire didn't happen without Napoleon. Christianity didn't happen without Jesus. There's always one extraordinary man (or woman) who starts the ball rolling on a religion, a philosophy, or a political movement, then many others keep it rolling from that point on. That's how it happens. One person initiates it. Others follow after.

Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 10:50 AM

I don't think so Stringsinger.

Just because a section of Christianity goes off at a tangent and develops hardline fundamentalist notions of an inerrant tome expressing the word of God, it doesn't detract from the millions of others who believe in living a Christian lifestyle.

All that is needed is to recognise that the term "Christian" can no longer rationally apply to the former, since their views and their actions are completely at odds with what we understand of the message of Jesus and of the gospels.

Their brand of Christianity is an Old Testament viewpoint, unaffected by Jesus and the New Testament, both of which, for them, need never have existed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 10:52 AM

He who looks only for bad things in something finds only bad things there, no matter what he's looking at.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 10:57 AM

Sorry, chaps, but Jesus's advice to turn the other cheek wasn't suggesting civil disobedience (which he may also have done, but not here) or dumb insolence. It was to offer the other cheek for your enemy to clatter as well. And we can't know that had Gandhi et al. chosen an entirely different course their people might not have suffered for as long as they did. That owld hippie Jesus also suggested that no-one need worry about garnering for the morrow, for sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Irresponsibility rules OK!